A Simple Question...

[Holly]

What is wrong with cross dressing? Why has society disapproved? What is it about the cross dressing itself (not the lying, deceit, hiding, etc.) that threatens one-on-one relationships and tears apart families? How have we allowed clothing choices to become so powerful?

I'm probably asking the wrong crowd here :). I'm interested in hearing everyone's view on this, but I am particularly interested in hearing from our Loved Ones who have struggled with this issue.

[Tranny Tee]

If you believe that there is nothing wrong with crossdressing you have never seen me in a dress!

Seriously, we are different. We do things that most people do not do. Many people have problems reating to things that are not done by most members of the tribe.
\

[Lexi X]

Its different and people are afraid of different things. Either that or it makes them look at themselves and scares them.

[suzy1]

I am going to be painfully blunt here. There are some crossdressers that look good dressed. And we certainly have some here!
But there are some that don’t. I think no mater how you look that’s fine.
But out there in the nasty old world others see a man in a dress and to them it looks anything but good. They don’t like it. They think its weird, sick, perverted even.
Now when these same people see a gorgeous looking drag queen it seems to be different. Even acceptable.
I know that’s not the complete answer but its part of it I think.
I even have to admit, if I see a woman in men’s clothes I find it unpleasant.
That’s just how I see it.

SUZY

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

I think that crossdressing may be considered as a threat to the masculine ideal, The supposedly ideal in that a man never cries, he must protect, he must show strength, he must never back down from a fight, he must be loyal and supportive. To me this ideal is very hard to change, in particular when some males may show weakness but hide behind a mask of so called neanderthal mentality. I am strong, I will put down anyone who says I am weak.
This means that a family who is heavily based on the ideal man may become furious if there daughter marries a guy who does not conform to their ideals hence conflict. It is very sad that so many problems arise from the "ideal male" and many forms of "maleness" have evolved, only to be suppressed by the "ideal male".
Unfortunately this attitude may take a long time to change, but with so much confusion about who crossdressers are, any change for the better will take much education and that takes time and commitment.
I think that anything "out of the taken norm" will be considered as a threat from a closed society and that is so sad, but heck didn't poor old Copernicus have a problem putting forward his ideas on a sun centered universe and not the earth?

[Lucy_Bella]

Holly,
Thanks for posting this :)
I am not a DR. but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn before, ..

It's not the Clothing per say, its what it resembles how one acts when dressed or how you are percieved by others when dressed.. Walk around naked , you will be noticed, a guy wearing a dress is just a Taboo.. Nothing in this world is more natural then walking around naked . But yet it raises eye brows and can get you arrested..

There is nothing wrong in wearing clothing, are you wearing makeup as well? Are you in a wig and pumps? This is telling others that you are not JUST WEARING CLOTHING.. You are telling others you have a Femme/Masculin side that needs to be expressed. something that unless they have a Femme/Masculin side them selfs would never understand.. So without understanding you walking around or yearing the desire to express the Femme side you have are considered a freak!! Just as you would be if you were to walk around naked..

I can throw on a male pair of jeans, a male shirt.. Put a wig on ,throw some makeup on and then some heels and look just as Femme without having any female clothing exposed..

[Joanne f]

A good question and i am looking forward to seeing any replies from the GGs on the clothes side of it only .
I personally think it has a lot to do with sexual connotations possibly linked to the same sort of thing that people think when they see a woman in a very short skirt people start to think that it is worn for a reason other than just enjoyment .

[SherriePall]

I think it is because we upset the apple cart. If we look halfway decent then straight men have mixed feelings towards the woman they see if they realize that woman is actually a man. We threaten their sexual bearings. Rather than being their problem, they put the blame on us for creating those confusing thoughts they're having.

That's my opinion at least for this moment.

[Stephanie Anne]

It is associated with a private matter of fantasy and deception. It conveys weakness and betrayal of the masculine privilege. It assumes homosexuality which also betrays the masculine privilege.

There is a distaste for instability. To many the act of crossing gender lines means the accepted standards are irrelevant. It means people have to change and think and care for someone they never met.

But mostly it is because certain religions are very intolerant and teach that it is ok to hate someone for who they are and what they do. Pretty much everything I said before that statement is just smoke and mirrors to avoid the elephant in the room.

Would it surprise you that I have received condemnation for offending god from members of this very forum simply for being transsexual? Even our own community contains people blinded by religious prejudice.

[busker]

I think it is because we upset the apple cart. If we look halfway decent then straight men have mixed feelings towards the woman they see if they realize that woman is actually a man. We threaten their sexual bearings. Rather than being their problem, they put the blame on us for creating those confusing thoughts they're having.

That's my opinion at least for this moment.

This is my feeling exactly. It throws people off, because we are always looking for a reference point. People need those signals to differentiate and when they see a guy looking as good as a gal, they are not only embarrased that they made an identification error, but they may feel that someone has tricked them into a "gay" situation. Also, at least from those memebrs who post here from other countries, it seems to be a world-wide feeling.

I remember many years ago when I was in Europe, I was walking behind two girls with long blond hair, their walk was feminine, they had long coats on as it was winter so the slacks fit in my mental image, but all of a sudden they turned around and were 2 young guys that were a bit androgenous but I was just caught off guard by the long blond hair, and made the supposition that they were indeed girls.

We haven't moved much from that "scarry place" in society. The other problme I think is that gays have sort of spoiled it for everyone in the sense that they were seen as effiminate and so society thinks of crossdressers as gays, and though they made great strides in acceptance, they are not home free yet. We are guilty by association, and the interenet hasn't helped. Look up crossdresser and what do get--porn sites galore, showing mostly gay activity of "trannies" "********" etc. So even the nicest among us is going to get tagged as ---you name it. It was a long time before I found this forum on the internet and in my search I went through a lot of portals and probably felt about myself the same as many people feel about us before figuring out that cd's weren't really part of that group..

Also, people don't understand, the same way we don't always understand our own motivations. I feel perfectly comfortable in my clothes and would wear them outside if society was different but we are a long way from a society that is not only tolerant but accepting. We just have to accept that as fact, venture out if it is safe and necessary.

As an afterthought maybe we should just wear a pink X as a shoulder patch and when we dress to go out, just add the patch to our clothing.!!!


It would be nice to have CD colonies, something like nudist colonies, where a person could spend a week enjoying but out of the vue of society at large. Maybe even a ship cruise that is exclusely CD.

[Nicole Erin]

I read about a lot of things.
Thing is, anything you do that doesn't follow the herd is looked down on.
People worry what the neighbors will think if you do anything.

People are just judgmental pricks. If you are too pretty, too ugly, too fat, go to the doctor too often, have too many kids, if you are poor, if you are rich, if you are handicapped, if you are too tall or too short, keep too neat a house, too messy a house... and of course if you are openly GLBT, OR if you are "outed".

Unless you are "normal" which is: straight, white, average built, middle class income, people judge you.

When you see these suburbanites that try so fiercely to protect their perfect image, it is cause even THEY, the "totally average" people know they will be judged over any silly little thing.

I do not really think TG get judged a whole lot more than anyone else who isn't "normal". We may get it a bit more than many but not that much.

[julia ann]

I beleive it taught from the earliest ages that there is a difference and that a real male would not engage in such activity less he be labeled a "sissy" which if you are a four year old you have been taught there is nothing on the face of the earth that is worse than being a sissy. Society has in bread a bias towards people like us and to be faced with it, a natural human reaction based on the standard upbringing is to belittle what we perceive as being wrong. If you could get most people into an adult conversation and ask " why is it wrong" unless they revert back to chilhood style arguments, they would have to conclude that it is harmless. But good luck in persuadeing people, even the most grown up people can still be very closed minded based on there childhood teachings and will revert to something like " i know I am but what are you--- na na na"

[Karren H]

women in society see it as wrong because its not what their fathers did. Men think its wrong because they might be attracted to a gut enfemme and that scares them.

[Holly]

...Seriously, we are different. We do things that most people do not do. Many people have problems reating to things that are not done by most members of the tribe. Mountain climbers are different and do things that most people do not do and yet I hear nothing of hatred of mountain climbing.


Its different and people are afraid of different things. Either that or it makes them look at themselves and scares them.Do you mean that it scares them because it makes them admit to themselves that they have had the same curiosity?


I am going to be painfully blunt here. There are some crossdressers that look good dressed. And we certainly have some here!
But there are some that don't. I think no mater how you look thats fine.
But out there in the nasty old world others see a man in a dress and to them it looks anything but good. They don't like it. They think its weird, sick, perverted even.
Now when these same people see a gorgeous looking drag queen it seems to be different. Even acceptable.
I know that's not the complete answer but its part of it I think.
I even have to admit, if I see a woman in men’s clothes I find it unpleasant.
That’s just how I see it.Are you saying if we were all beautiful (whatever that means) then we would be accepted? GG's who fall short on the beautiful scale (again, whatever that means) are accepted as part of society although I am sure it is true that they not attain some of the privileges those who are perceived to be more attractive acquire


I think that crossdressing may be considered as a threat to the masculine ideal,...Using this type of logic, wouldn't GG's also threaten this so called ideal by the very fact that they are feminine?
The supposedly ideal in that a man never cries, he must protect, he must show strength, he must never back down from a fight, he must be loyal and supportive. To me this ideal is very hard to change, in particular when some males may show weakness but hide behind a mask of so called neanderthal mentality...Is this ideal hard to change in society or in yourself?
I am strong, I will put down anyone who says I am weak.
This means that a family who is heavily based on the ideal man may become furious if there daughter marries a guy who does not conform to their ideals hence conflict...So who is wrong here? The cross dresser or the family who based their ideals on a flawed concept:strugglin?
It is very sad that so many problems arise from the "ideal male" and many forms of "maleness" have evolved, only to be suppressed by the "ideal male"...This would indicate to me that the ideal male concept itself must be flawed if it has to be constantly revised.
Unfortunately this attitude may take a long time to change, but with so much confusion about who crossdressers are, any change for the better will take much education and that takes time and commitment.
I think that anything "out of the taken norm" will be considered as a threat from a closed society and that is so sad, but heck didn't poor old Copernicus have a problem putting forward his ideas on a sun centered universe and not the earth?I do believe you are on to something here. Don't we all feel a bit ill at ease when visiting someplace we have never been before? Landing at a new airport aren't we a little tense until we find out where the baggage claim is and where ground transportation is available? I agree... we need to discover a way to overcome the inertia of complacency at rest.


...It's not the Clothing per say, its what it resembles how one acts when dressed or how you are perceived by others when dressed.. Walk around naked , you will be noticed, a guy wearing a dress is just a Taboo...But why is it Taboo? That is the question.
...There is nothing wrong in wearing clothing, are you wearing makeup as well? Are you in a wig and pumps? This is telling others that you are not JUST WEARING CLOTHING.. You are telling others you have a Femme/Masculin side that needs to be expressed. something that unless they have a Femme/Masculin side them selfs would never understand.. So without understanding you walking around or yearing the desire to express the Femme side you have are considered a freak!! Just as you would be if you were to walk around naked..I don't understand quantum physics but I don't think physicists are freaks. There has to be something more at work here.


A good question and i am looking forward to seeing any replies from the GGs on the clothes side of it only .Me too :D
...I personally think it has a lot to do with sexual connotations possibly linked to the same sort of thing that people think when they see a woman in a very short skirt people start to think that it is worn for a reason other than just enjoyment .Do you think those among us who tend to dress more conservatively experience less hostility? You may have a point... at least from the male side of the population.


I think it is because we upset the apple cart. If we look halfway decent then straight men have mixed feelings towards the woman they see if they realize that woman is actually a man. We threaten their sexual bearings. Rather than being their problem, they put the blame on us for creating those confusing thoughts they're having.

That's my opinion at least for this moment.But what about the women? Are you saying we may be threatening their own sexuality?


It is associated with a private matter of fantasy and deception. It conveys weakness and betrayal of the masculine privilege. It assumes homosexuality which also betrays the masculine privilege.You are right in that we are slow learners at times. Look at how long it took us to give women the right to join men in self governance by extending the privilege of voting to them. Or persons of color to sit anywhere on the bus they chose.
..There is a distaste for instability. To many the act of crossing gender lines means the accepted standards are irrelevant. It means people have to change and think and care for someone they never met...When outhouses were abandoned in favor of indoor plumbing and flushing toilets, I don't recall reading about a huge revolt against it. We change accepted standards all the time.
..But mostly it is because certain religions are very intolerant and teach that it is ok to hate someone for who they are and what they do. Pretty much everything I said before that statement is just smoke and mirrors to avoid the elephant in the room.

Would it surprise you that I have received condemnation for offending god from members of this very forum simply for being transsexual? Even our own community contains people blinded by religious prejudice.Let's not go here too deeply. There is a whole section of the forum devoted to discussing religious issues. Let me just say factually very few religions teach hatred and condemnation. But there are an unfortunately high number of individuals who distort and pervert the basic tenants of some religions. It does do us no good to paint religion with the same broad brush we ourselves are all too often painted with.

This question of why cross dressing is wrong and my comments are only intended to spur thought and discussion. I hope I have not offended anyone as none was intended. Several different possibilities to the rejection of cross dressing have been offered and all have some degree of merit. What I was hoping to find was some common denominator we could identify and start working on. The closest so far is fear of the unknown/misunderstood. Other thoughts?

[ikthys]

I'm no GG, but I think I can speak for my wife when I say it's about gender. It's not about as shallow as this item or that. It's about a man trying to personify a woman. For so's this is a real conflict because most of us base such a relationship first and foremost on our SO being a certain gender (usually the opposite one from us).

[Eryn]

Even in the 21st century we live in what is essentially a primitive tribal culture. Each person has their role, men to protect the tribe and gather provisions, women to maintain the living conditions and raise the children. Each of these roles is essential to survival of the tribe and anyone who looks as though they won't completely fulfill their role is a perceived liability to the tribe.

Men in women's clothing is perceived as a rejection of these essential gender roles and I believe that, deep down, it is still perceived by the observer as a threat to tribal survival. A man in a dress isn't prepared to fight and therefore won't "pull his weight" for the tribe. This threat doesn't bear close examination in modern context, but emotionally it is not examined and a negative feeling results that is expressed in various ways, almost all negative.

Modern women have been able to go beyond their gender roles in some ways, but they are still somewhat trapped. They still feel pressured to "stay home with the children" or to "be good homemakers" despite their forays into the masculine world of provisioning.

[sissystephanie]

Crossdressing is wrong in the minds of people who generally know nothing about crossdressing. Most people in this world have been raised to believe that men are men and women are women. Unfortunately, there is no conception of some people being a little of both sexes! Therefore if a man wears a dress or a real skirt(not a Kilt) he is considered to be wrong!! Just because he does not conform to the popular notion of what a man should wear!! Women wear mens clothing all the time and no one seems to care, so why should men be different!! The only reason is just because they are MEN!! We are special, at least in the eyes of some people!!

I am very definitely a man!! But I wear feminine clothing out in public almost every day, but look entirely like the man that I am! I suppose most of the people who see me think I am totally wrong in what I do! But you know what?? In the past almost 6 years that I have been going out like that, I have not had one single negative comment. I have had many compliments, from both women and men, on my outfits. I guess my real attitude is that I don't give a d*** what other people think. I am ME, not someone elses property!!

[Lucy_Bella]

Originally Posted by Lucy_Bella
...It's not the Clothing per say, its what it resembles how one acts when dressed or how you are perceived by others when dressed.. Walk around naked , you will be noticed, a guy wearing a dress is just a Taboo...

But why is it Taboo? That is the question.

Oh my dear Holly,
It really shouldn't be Taboo because of the amount of people whom partake .. I think if the internet was invented 75 years ago it would not be Taboo today.. Before the internet most like myself kept dressing very deep in the closet .. Now that the internet is here Crossdressing is gaining exposer.. Take other smaller socities In one is an island off of austrelia <-- spelled wrong I know..To where Trans gender isn't taboo and is part of the culture. That is because the close knit soceity that had very little or outside influence..





Originally Posted by Lucy_Bella
...There is nothing wrong in wearing clothing, are you wearing makeup as well? Are you in a wig and pumps? This is telling others that you are not JUST WEARING CLOTHING.. You are telling others you have a Femme/Masculin side that needs to be expressed. something that unless they have a Femme/Masculin side them selfs would never understand.. So without understanding you walking around or yearing the desire to express the Femme side you have are considered a freak!! Just as you would be if you were to walk around naked..

I don't understand quantum physics but I don't think physicists are freaks. There has to be something more at work here.

Well Holly just as walking around in a attire meant for the other sex is Taboo so is walking around naked..The Physics isn't physical it's mental..Other words it is like looking at a red light our brain doesn't say "wow red light" its says stop. Just as if you where to see a male in female clothing others are assumieing that person is either confussed or just a nut case you pick. Unless you have the Mega ball ticket you won't check to see if your numbers have came up.Just as unless you are a Cder or know someone you care about is ,you will never gain information needed to understand one.

[erica12b]

sociely has guild lines , men dress as men ,girl as girls, the gay movment has blurred the lines ,the rules dont work any more , if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck , but has the wrong pluming , it a crossdresser , and its not cracking jokes we dont know what to do ,

things humanity dont understand eather gets locked up , killed , or chased off

[Kate Simmons]

Basically people are not afraid of crossdressing in itself Holly. They are afraid of the potential implications that are tacked onto it and the stereotypes conjured up by it.In essence most believe a man cannot remain being a man if he chooses to dress up like a woman. While most of us here know this is a crock, most of society does not. CDing in general will probably never be accepted but some folks who do CD are accepted by others for who they are as a person, presentation notwithstanding.It's that easy or that hard, depending on our outlook.:)

[docrobbysherry]

Most of the posts here r like using a missile to kill a fly!

When folks r out in public, they tend NOT to notice others much. When they DO notice u, there's a reason! They look at his dirty jeans, her tite jeans, her muffin top jeans, etc., etc. And, they THINK whatever judgmental thot they're used to thinking and simply move on!:straightface:

When they see a man in a dress, I believe most folk's gut reaction is, "Sicko, perv, weirdo, etc., etc". And, then they move on and forget about it!:brolleyes:

They don't spend much time thinking about WHY she/he's dressed that way. Most r AFRAID to hear the answer!:eek:

I think if most individuals got to KNOW a CD personally, we wouldn't be so widely reviled!

Of course, why friends and family don't widely accept CDs, I think is another matter entirely!:doh:

[Fab Karen]

Would it surprise you that I have received condemnation for offending god from members of this very forum simply for being transsexual? Even our own community contains people blinded by religious prejudice.
Some people were born with a brain deficiency.

You want greater understanding & acceptance? Walk out the door with your head held high. The more butterflies flapping, the greater the wind of change.

[sometimes_miss]

See this thread http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?147868-Why-do-many-women-reject-CDs
and use the search function. This has been discussed many times. It seems people like to rehash over and ask the same questions over and over again, hoping for a new answer. And sure, when you're here, 'preaching to the choir', you'll get nice, supportive answers a lot. But in the real world, men do not typically dress and act like women, we are seen as unstable and unreliable persons, because our behavior is not what people have grown to expect from men. You can't change human nature.

[Toronto Kristen]

...This has been discussed many times. It seems people like to rehash over and ask the same questions over and over again, hoping for a new answer.

I do not think people are hoping to get "a different answer to the same question", which is a somewhat facetious definition of insanity. Personally, I think that this, and other fundamental questions, keeps getting asked on this site because there are new people (like me) joining all the time: Trying to resolve (not necessarily answering) these questions is one of the reasons why I/we/they have joined this site (as well as having a community that understands my situation. Yes, I could use the search function but asking the question again does not hurt anyone.


Holly,

The answer to your first question is that cross-dressing in-of-itself is not wrong. It is the answer to the second question that is the critical one. The collective body that is general society is conservative in attitude and action. Western society has come a long way since the 1950s but there are still many hang-overs from that time. Just look at the general murmours of "disapproval" of the father who takes paternity leave. Yes, it is more acceptable but it is a long way from being considered a right equal to that of maternal leave. Crossdressing challenges society's norm that "men should dress like men". Note that I do not address women dressing in men's clothes as this is far more accepted by general society.

[Holly]

... I remember many years ago when I was in Europe, I was walking behind two girls with long blond hair, their walk was feminine, they had long coats on as it was winter so the slacks fit in my mental image, but all of a sudden they turned around and were 2 young guys that were a bit androgenous but I was just caught off guard by the long blond hair, and made the supposition that they were indeed girls...So if I understand what you are saying, the two people you were following behind didn't do anything wrong. It was you who drew the wrong conclusion.
... The other problem I think is that gays have sort of spoiled it for everyone in the sense that they were seen as effiminate and so society thinks of crossdressers as gays, and though they made great strides in acceptance, they are not home free yet. We are guilty by association, and the interenet hasn't helped...Homophobia is alive and well. At least that is what I hear you saying. Forgive me if I am wrong.
... Also, people don't understand, the same way we don't always understand our own motivations. I feel perfectly comfortable in my clothes and would wear them outside if society was different but we are a long way from a society that is not only tolerant but accepting. We just have to accept that as fact, venture out if it is safe and necessary.We seem to be hitting reoccurring theme here that society's opinion is based on a lack of or flawed knowledge.
...I do not really think TG get judged a whole lot more than anyone else who isn't "normal". We may get it a bit more than many but not that much.I agree with you. Still it is sad that people feel that they have to judge others at all. :(


I beleive it taught from the earliest ages that there is a difference and that a real male would not engage in such activity less he be labeled a "sissy" which if you are a four year old you have been taught there is nothing on the face of the earth that is worse than being a sissy. But why are such things taught in the first place?


women in society see it as wrong because its not what their fathers did. Men think its wrong because they might be attracted to a gut enfemme and that scares them.Succinct and to the point.


I'm no GG, but I think I can speak for my wife when I say it's about gender. It's not about as shallow as this item or that. It's about a man trying to personify a woman. For so's this is a real conflict because most of us base such a relationship first and foremost on our SO being a certain gender (usually the opposite one from us).I'd like to believe this is true. But there is evidence to the contrary. On this forum alone there is account after account of partners purging their clothing at the insistence of their SO or other family member. And as to relationships being based on a potential partner being a certain gender, I would suggest it is not so gender based as it is sexual based. The desire to procreate is a strong driver. Having a same sex partner (or one who is perceived to be the same sex) complicates the process.


...Men in women's clothing is perceived as a rejection of these essential gender roles...Just what makes these gender roles "essential" and who made that determination?
.....Modern women have been able to go beyond their gender roles in some ways, but they are still somewhat trapped. They still feel pressured to "stay home with the children" or to "be good homemakers" despite their forays into the masculine world of provisioning.If women have been able to accomplish this, what is holding men back from doing the same thing?


Crossdressing is wrong in the minds of people who generally know nothing about crossdressing...Another vote for inadequate or faulty education of the masses!
...Women wear mens clothing all the time and no one seems to care, so why should men be different!! The only reason is just because they are MEN!! We are special, at least in the eyes of some people!!...Men are special? I'd like to hear more from you on this. It has been my experience that the woman was the one to be protected and cherished.

[QUOTE=Lucy_Bella;2396154]...It really shouldn't be Taboo because of the amount of people whom partake .. I think if the internet was invented 75 years ago it would not be Taboo today.. Before the internet most like myself kept dressing very deep in the closet .. Now that the internet is here Crossdressing is gaining exposer.. Take other smaller socities In one is an island off of austrelia <-- spelled wrong I know..To where Trans gender isn't taboo and is part of the culture. That is because the close knit soceity that had very little or outside influence..Wouldn't it be interesting to know why some of these societies developed not only a tolerance for cross dressing but in some cases, a whole-hearted enthusiastic support of the practice?
...Well Holly just as walking around in a attire meant for the other sex is Taboo so is walking around naked..The Physics isn't physical it's mental..Other words it is like looking at a red light our brain doesn't say "wow red light" its says stop. Just as if you where to see a male in female clothing others are assumieing that person is either confussed or just a nut case you pick. Unless you have the Mega ball ticket you won't check to see if your numbers have came up.Just as unless you are a Cder or know someone you care about is ,you will never gain information needed to understand one.Actually physics is very physical. By definition it is the study of all the physical things that make up the universe :). But your "red light" point is well taken. We are programmed to accept certain things and reject others. I guess the question now becomes what basis do we use to make those judgments?


sociely has guild lines , men dress as men ,girl as girls, the gay movment has blurred the lines ,the rules dont work any more , if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck , but has the wrong pluming , it a crossdresser , and its not cracking jokes we dont know what to do ,

things humanity dont understand eather gets locked up , killed , or chased offThis thought opens up a whole bunch of cans of worms! What are these guidelines? who established them? Why are we bound to continue them?


Basically people are not afraid of crossdressing in itself Holly. They are afraid of the potential implications that are tacked onto it and the stereotypes conjured up by it.In essence most believe a man cannot remain being a man if he chooses to dress up like a woman. While most of us here know this is a crock, most of society does not. CDing in general will probably never be accepted but some folks who do CD are accepted by others for who they are as a person, presentation notwithstanding.It's that easy or that hard, depending on our outlook.:)Here again, we are suggesting a lack of knowledge or understanding. Denise, would you care to comment further on the statement, "some folks who do CD are accepted by others for who they are as a person?" This may be one of the missing keys.


...When folks r out in public, they tend NOT to notice others much. When they DO notice u, there's a reason! They look at his dirty jeans, her tite jeans, her muffin top jeans, etc., etc. And, they THINK whatever judgmental thot they're used to thinking and simply move on!:straightface:So you see it as a matter of individual prejudices?
...When they see a man in a dress, I believe most folk's gut reaction is, "Sicko, perv, weirdo, etc., etc". And, then they move on and forget about it!:brolleyes:Even though they have never interacted with such and individual. They had to get that preconceived notion from somewhere.
...I think if most individuals got to KNOW a CD personally, we wouldn't be so widely reviled...You and Denice seem to be on a similar wavelength :).


See this thread http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?147868-Why-do-many-women-reject-CDs
and use the search function. This has been discussed many times. It seems people like to rehash over and ask the same questions over and over again, hoping for a new answer. And sure, when you're here, 'preaching to the choir', you'll get nice, supportive answers a lot. But in the real world, men do not typically dress and act like women, we are seen as unstable and unreliable persons, because our behavior is not what people have grown to expect from men. You can't change human nature.Lexi, I have been around this forum for quite some time now and certainly longer than you. The thread you referenced is not the same as being asked here. GG's have plenty of reasons to reject cross dressers and not all of them relate to the act of cross dressing itself. What I am trying to get at is why the act of cross dressing is thought to be a wrong thing to do. What I'm hearing most is that it is because it is not understood. That in and of itself is understandable because many (most?) of us struggle to understand it ourselves.


...The answer to your first question is that cross-dressing in-of-itself is not wrong. It is the answer to the second question that is the critical one. The collective body that is general society is conservative in attitude and action. Western society has come a long way since the 1950s but there are still many hang-overs from that time. Just look at the general murmours of "disapproval" of the father who takes paternity leave. Yes, it is more acceptable but it is a long way from being considered a right equal to that of maternal leave. Crossdressing challenges society's norm that "men should dress like men". Note that I do not address women dressing in men's clothes as this is far more accepted by general society.We seem to keep circling back to society's "norms." Perhaps we need to have a better understanding of who establishes these norms and approach the issue from that standpoint.

This is a great discussion and I appreciate everyone's participation. I look forward to some of our Loved Ones joining in as well.

[Cari]

I think it is because we upset the apple cart. If we look halfway decent then straight men have mixed feelings towards the woman they see if they realize that woman is actually a man. We threaten their sexual bearings. Rather than being their problem, they put the blame on us for creating those confusing thoughts they're having.

That's my opinion at least for this moment.


I think that for most people they never question their gender, its one thing they understand then we come along nd upset the apple cart.

[Kate Simmons]

Basically I was saying that if we stop focusing on what we do and what we look like and instead focus on who we are inside, that is what will come through and that is what others will identify with and accept. The essence of who we are as a person is the key and not expecting acceptance or demanding our "rights". This can only happen on a personal level, however, not a community one.:)

[Joanne f]

Me too :DDo you think those among us who tend to dress more conservatively experience less hostility? You may have a point... at least from the male side of the population.


I am not saying it is the only reason but i do think it plays a big part in it , the androgynous look gos without any attention at all drawn to you , long skirts draw very little attention but as soon as someone wears something short there is a great deal of attention drawn to them , this even works for females but with females you can have a difference between " hey that looks nice to why are they wearing that whereas with a male wearing something provocative you are inclined to only get the "why are they wearing that" and to a certain extent it has been bad press that might have fueled this way of thinking .
I also wonder if women feel that then they dress how they like they have some sort of self control but may feel that a man dressed like it may have less self control due to bad press again .

[SusanQ]

I think that crossdressing may be considered as a threat to the masculine ideal, The supposedly ideal in that a man never cries, he must protect, he must show strength, he must never back down from a fight, he must be loyal and supportive. To me this ideal is very hard to change, in particular when some males may show weakness but hide behind a mask of so called neanderthal mentality. I am strong, I will put down anyone who says I am weak.
This means that a family who is heavily based on the ideal man may become furious if there daughter marries a guy who does not conform to their ideals hence conflict. It is very sad that so many problems arise from the "ideal male" and many forms of "maleness" have evolved, only to be suppressed by the "ideal male".
Unfortunately this attitude may take a long time to change, but with so much confusion about who crossdressers are, any change for the better will take much education and that takes time and commitment.
I think that anything "out of the taken norm" will be considered as a threat from a closed society and that is so sad, but heck didn't poor old Copernicus have a problem putting forward his ideas on a sun centered universe and not the earth?

I totally agree with what you said. Nobody reacts at all when they see a female wearing male clothing...but do the opposite and pandemonia occurs.There are way too many males that are scared to death that they might not be male enough...hence we frighten them...and females wearing male clothing are just considered silly little beings that are being inconsequential.

[Jonianne]

.....What is it about the cross dressing itself (not the lying, deceit, hiding, etc.) that threatens one-on-one relationships and tears apart families?.....


.....How have we allowed clothing choices to become so powerful?.....

Holly, I'm suprised you would ask this. Crossdressing is usually about far more than "clothing choices". For many, it's about identity, not necessarly identifying "as" a female, but often "with" females.

And because much of crossdressing is connected to eroticism and very often in an unbalanced way. Just check the internet. Most all of us have dressed because of the turn-on factor. (Just watch how many will say "Not me!!!) Now, large ocean going vessels usually have more than one engine that drives them and in our case, our drives can be multiple engines, ie identity and just liking certain colors, looks and feels, as well as erotic. So when our SO's find out that we like being in the female role in dress, identity and/or sex, it shatters life long ideas of how to relate. It doesn't fit the ingrain natural pattern. That doesn't mean that it's bad or something is wrong with us, but we struggle with that ourselves, how much more they may struggle. This struggle is what tears up relationships more than the crossdressing itself.

When we go out in public, the public can see it as being a form of exhibitionism and who knows if it is or not, except for the person him/herself. It's the perseption others see.

I think the only way to change the perspective others can see, is to open up when possible and let them see inside our hearts, that we are good people - complex genderwise - but genuine good people. And that would mean showing respect to others and letting them see we may be different, but we nontheless have a good and healthy balance in our lives.

[Toronto Kristen]

We seem to keep circling back to society's "norms." Perhaps we need to have a better understanding of who establishes these norms and approach the issue from that standpoint.
Identifying who (in the collective sense) is responsible for traditional societal norms is next to impossible because the origin of the norms is often lost in the mists of time. It is a little easier to identify the people who start the process of breaking down a societal norm: Rosa Parks is a name that springs to mind right now. There was a time when wearing heels was non-gender specific (some records indicate back to the time of pharaohs) but over time it has become part of a woman's fashion; I doubt that the person (or point in time) when this change occured will ever be identified. However, this is what is written on the Wikipedia entry regarding "Heel (shoes):
The late 18th-Century trend toward lower heels had much to do with the French Revolution. During the revolution, high heels became associated with opulence. Since people wished to avoid the appearance of wealth, heels were largely eliminated from the common market for both men and women. In the wake of the French Revolution heels become lower than at any time in the 18th century.

By coincidence I have just started reading Why the West Rules - For Now by Ian Morris, and it has an interesting theory as to how, why and when the roles played by the different genders divided. I have no idea if the theory is true but it was interesting to read in light of this discussion.

[Rhonda Jean]

I'll take a stab at this. I think that it's seen as a very powerful display of abnormal sexuality. Simultaneously, a highly deluded concept of self. A public display of a highly deluded and abnormal sexual fantasy. Public masturbation.

[Toronto Kristen]

I have no disagreement with the comments, Rhonda. However, the question that came to me reading them (and if I can be impertinent enough to speak fro Holly), the raise the questions of
(1) Why is it seen in these terms?
(2) Who decides this is the situation?
(3) How does it get changed?

I will throw this question in to stimulate further thought and discussion:
(4) Do we (the crossdressing community) really want to change the current societal situation?

[Katesback]

The day crossdressing is seen as normal is the day that as a mass CDs accept themselves and come out of hiding and present themselves to the world with self confidence, dignity, and respect. From my observations I don't see that happening but for a very FEW rare cases.

[Loni]

it is cause we do not just upset the apple cart...we over turn it and tromp on the contents.
normal?..what is normal? it is what a bunch of closed minded people say we should be.
just be good borgs and keep in line. do as told and it will not hurt.

men are so stuck on how we are raised to believe in ONLY one way, and any other is just wrong, men have this masculine thing, it must not be questioned we must conform to how the mold is made even if it does not fit.
men are not to show emotion, not cry, not show pain, not this...not that...
we are supposed to drule over a pretty girl..if not then it is believed we are "gay".
we are supposed to know how to read a map, open that jar, fix the car, etc. and to not you are looked at as a lesser than needed, and in some cases shunned.

women on the other hand have a free rain on how they can act, and look and behave. yes there are still standards but are so much looser than what a guy must live with-in. but how many decades did it take for women to be able ware jeans (not slacks) in public? but they got to put on mens clothing and nobody said a word. and some even looked great while doing it.

but times do change, just look at what was a racey bathing suit 100 years back. can you imagine a modest suit by today's standards, put on a girl just 50 years ago? even the change in panties with in our life times (us older ones that is). but mens clothing has changed very little.
three piece suite, jeans and T-shirt, blue collar worker ver white collar worker. yes hem lines go up and down, but all the varied colors/styles unknown for men, styles of the out-fit, type of mtr used to make the top bottom, etc.
i will not be here in 100 years, it would be interesting to see things then?

.

[Rhonda Jean]

I have no disagreement with the comments, Rhonda. However, the question that came to me reading them (and if I can be impertinent enough to speak fro Holly), the raise the questions of
(1) Why is it seen in these terms?
(2) Who decides this is the situation?
(3) How does it get changed?

I will throw this question in to stimulate further thought and discussion:
(4) Do we (the crossdressing community) really want to change the current societal situation?


I have no idea. It's learned. It's cultural. People's personal reactions to it are at least as strong, personal, and internally motivated as ours.

My own personal views are horribly out of sync with most of polite society. For instance, I happen to love high heels. Guy mode or girl mode, I think I look better in heels. I simply have no idea why it's such a taboo, but I know that it is. Same thing with long "feminine" hair. Short hair on a man is universally accepted, long hair is sometimes accepted as long as you're very careful to not do certain things to it to make it "pretty". It is beyond me how unkept long hair is marginally accepted, even as a mainstay in some highly testosterone driven settings (bikers, for instance), but do anything to make it look better (curlers, curling iron, flat iron, color) and it crosses some arbitrary boundary. Why is it that the worse my hair looks, the more easily it's accepted? It is beyond my realm of understanding.

[Toronto Kristen]

Wow, I just re-read what I wrote. Apologies for the stream of conciousness wording.

[Denise69]

[QUOTE=Jo

And because much of crossdressing is connected to eroticism and very often in an unbalanced way. Just check the internet. Most all of us have dressed because of the turn-on factor. (Just watch how many will say "Not me!!!)
I think the only way to change the perspective others can see, is to open up when possible and let them see inside our hearts, that we are good people - complex genderwise - but genuine good people. And that would mean showing respect to others and letting them see we may be different, but we nontheless have a good and healthy balance in our lives.[/QUOTE]

I'd disagree, but I'd be lying. I know for me when I started years ago, it was erotic. The feel of the fabrics and different tensions of the clothing on my body, as well as, the whole "societal taboo." Over the years, it has become what I think it was meant to be for me. comfortable. I am as comfortable en femme as in drab. I still love the feeling of the clothing, but its more like a hug from an old freind than erotic.

I deal with perception on a daily basis in my profession. To change perception requires education and knowledge.

[GaleWarning]

I'll take a stab at this. I think that it's seen as a very powerful display of abnormal sexuality. Simultaneously, a highly deluded concept of self. A public display of a highly deluded and abnormal sexual fantasy. Public masturbation.

I think you are right, RJ.
This IS how OTHERS perceive us.
They are wrong, of course.

[TGMarla]

As has been said before, when women "crossdress", ie, wear pants, etc., they are not emulating men when they do it. But most crossdressers, meaning male to female crossdressers, don't just toss on women's clothing. They wear wigs, makeup, fake boobs, padding.....the whole works. So it's not just clothing. People aren't objecting to the clothing per se, although if a man wears something feminine, people are likely to comment on it.

So are crossdressers only adding the other accoutrements so that they can wear these articles of clothing without drawing notice to others that they are really men? No, if that were true, deeply closeted crossdressers wouldn't bother with the boobs et al. We emulate women. Bottom line. Not all of us, but the vast majority do. It's not just the wearing of feminine clothing. We emulate women, and that's where the problem lies. The women in our lives reject it because they feel that it is inappropriate for men to appear as women, that it un-mans us. The other family members shun it because they feel it brings shame on them by association. Society at large rejects it because there is a prevailing seniment about how men should conduct themselves and appear to the rest of the world. They should be strong and independent, the protectors and providers. But they view crossdressers as lesser men, who want to really be women, and it diminishes us in their eyes, resulting in scorn and rejection.

Now, as I said, if it was only a guy wearing a poofy blouse, people are still going to comment on it. Feminine clothing is seen as something weaker than what the male ideal provides. And again, this diminishes the man who wears them, and the result is the same.

Thank goodness there are women in the world, or it would be one really stark, hard, cold world. If it weren't for femininity, I'm guessing all we'd have would be war.

[suchacutie]

Ok, I'm going to be blunt and if the moderators see this as too stark, please feel free to pull this entry.

Crossdressing has, historically, been, rightly or wrongly, linked with "deviant" sexual behavior. IMHO, if we don't educate society to dissociate this piece of history from the nature of transgederism, we will continue to fight an uphill battle.

After that comes all the issues of how "manhood" is viewed and the whole concept of "slaying the dragon for one's family/mate". Breaking into that edifice scars many people (potential mates), see point 1 above!

Then we come down to society laughing at anyone who is not "the norm", whatever that is. That begins in the earliest of our social interactions, even before the start of school. Anyone who is different is feared or laughed at. Adolescent societal groups are some of the worst offenders of this kind of action.

Put is all together, and sometimes I wonder how we survive at all :(

Having said that, this most recent generation looks to be turning the tide on all this, and I am greatly encouraged!

tina

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

My previous reply brought some questions from Holly so I thought I try and answer the topic's questions concisely.

What is wrong with cross dressing?

The only thing wrong with crossdressing is society's attitude towards anyone or thing that questions that society's beliefs. The taken norm is male and female with specific roles. Male provides and protects, females bare children and provide a home. These roles are changing in some societies. Some females provide an income greater than the male and some males now provide the home. Notice I say home not a house. Other societies are heavily masculine dominated, and women are suppressed. Crossdressers seem to blend the border that seperates the sexes. They can see both points of view and in so doing some crossdressers suppress themselves from publicly revealing their role as a CD. I fear revealing too much femininity as it is not considered as "the norm".
Crossdressers differ in the percentage they actually crossdress. Some are happy with wearing a dress, some need to fully dress and act, some want to transition permanently. The common thing is we dress in some way to some degree as the opposite sex. Unfortunately in general, this is frowned on by many societies.


Why has society disapproved?

I think society disapproves of crossdressers because cd'ing disturbs society from the so called norm. If I dress in camourflage and walk down the street I appear to be accepted in some societies. If I dress in a riding outfit like dressage and walk down the street, I may attract a lot of attention. I differ from the societies accepted norm. If I walk down the street dressed in dressage during an equestrian event, I am accepted. The norm accepts my new attire if it is communicated as part of the norm by media announcing that an equestrian event is happening. It may then be accepted on whole and so my attire will be socially accepted. Maybe if a crossdresser convention took place with lots of media coverage and education, then in walking down the street dressed as female I may be accepted as "the norm". Unfortunately I negate this with the dreaded "ideal male and maybe even female" who due to a lack in wanting to learn (maybe early high school dropouts) will never accept anything that disturbs their little world. An inability to question, reason and desire to learn can only answer with verbal or physical abuse. Hence I refrain from walking down the street in my society. My society may differ from yours.

What is it about the cross dressing itself (not the lying, deceit, hiding, etc.) that threatens one-on-one relationships and tears apart families?

Breaking the Rules. Society maybe a family, group of friends, street, town, city, state, country or nation that have a list of rules and roles they want all to accept and honour. This may be considered as being loyal and respectful. Rules and roles can be challenged if knowledge can be applied effectively and accepted. Unfortunately within a closed fixed system, nothing can be allowed to question.
If there is a challenge to the rules then there must be some form of education so this challenge can be accepted. This education must be broad and correctly communicated, so if any form of media is used, then the reporters must be educated first and then society may become more accepting of anything that challenges that society's rules and accepted roles if reasoning is communicated correctly and within context.

How have we allowed clothing choices to become so powerful?

Fear? Some people dress to create fear. Some dress to impress, some groups dress in a uniform. Some dress to express their individuality. Some may even hide behind a particular style of fashion to escape society. One simple line of soldiers may consist of individuals but together they blend as one large group. If one soldier has anything different that soldier will stand out and possibly be accepted (maybe an officer) or not accepted (naughty soldier). So maybe societies in general have allowed a visualisation in accepted dress code to help hold that society's rules and roles, not to be questioned but taken as "the norm for their ideal person".

So in reality it is fear and that fear maybe lies within my questioning of my role within society and is my role acceptable as a male who dresses in such a way that I create fear in those who do not understand? Fear can be cured through education and the process in learning is being allowed to question within this forum and maybe broadly within our society. These are only my thoughts on this topic, I am not qualified to advise but I hope I provoke more thoughts in order to see the reason why I crossdress. Thanks

[ReineD]

I know I'm speaking simplistically and in very broad terms, but the simple answer just may be that our reptilian brains (unless otherwise enlightened) view non-conformative gender and sexuality behaviors as a threat to the propagation of our species. These behaviors have been taboo in most cultures for I don't know how long. Perhaps since the beginning.

The biological norms are this: gender matches sexuality and men and women are attracted to the opposite sex. Most people do believe that gender and sexuality are tied together. This is why the first question asked to a TG is, "Are you gay?" I also think that most people outside the GLBTQ community look away the first time they see same-sex couples being sexually affectionate. But, they don't have the same gut-level feeling when they see a man and a woman kissing.

What else are we hard wired to avoid? Certain smells that alert us to a dangerous food and water supply. Unhealthy living conditions. Communicable diseases. Anything that might cause our extinction, really, if left unchecked.

Don't get me wrong, Holly ... I'm not comparing trans behaviors to pestilence or unhealthy lifestyles. I'm just trying to find a way to explain why there is such social anxiety about it.

On the plus side, we do live in an age of cognitive reasoning, and all it takes for most people is a bit of education and first-hand experience with members of the community before they lose their bias, or at least, develop some level of tolerance. :)

[Avana]

It is associated with a private matter of fantasy and deception. It conveys weakness and betrayal of the masculine privilege. It assumes homosexuality which also betrays the masculine privilege.


nail
on
head!



I know I'm speaking simplistically and in very broad terms, but the simple answer just may be that our reptilian brains (unless otherwise enlightened) view non-conformative gender and sexuality behaviors as a threat to the propagation of our species. These behaviors have been taboo in most cultures for I don't know how long. Perhaps since the beginning.

that's not entirely true.

Maybe youre familiar with Indian Hijras:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)

Native american Berdaches/two spirits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

Thai Kathoeys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey

and Eununchs in countless cultures in history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch


As far as the theory about 'reptilian' brains, I hope you're just stating what people generally believe and not that this is your opinion! The idea that men with feminine gender characteristics (not sex) are somehow less able to 'propagate' is just purely misogynistic! That kind of thinking dictates that survival of the species relies on masculine 'strength' and ability to provide. This is just silly, especially in 2011. And human sexes in general aren't even very different compared to many animals where the differences and genetic responsibilities of those animals are more clearly defined.

[ThiHi]

In my very humble opinion, it's motivated by fear, and fear is usually always motivated by a lack of knowledge or understanding.

If as a man I wear bright colors (which I usually do) I stand out. I get looks - the long hair, he flowing jacket, the brightly colored scarf, with PINK in it no less - but when people get to know me, i'm usually accepted.

People in general are happy with things in neat categories, weather that's music, movies, books, or clothes. If I wear stockings, what am I? A dress? What about long hair? Is Sting a rock artist? Crossover Country? Easy Listening?

People like labels, makes the world easier to understand. The realization that all not all things fit in small, easy to recognize boxes, means one has to think and reason for oneself. That's a huge cause for fear in so many.

[lizbendalin]

I think that it's really a black and white issue. All humans (in general) have a tendency to divide things into two categories; something is either this or that. Either it's good or bad, someone is black or white, conservative or liberal, it's hot or cold, you're ether gay or straight, known or unknown, heels or flats (to name just a few). As a society (in general) we are more comfortable when we can put something into a category that's one thing or another. In single religion dominated cultures, people are defined as being a part of that religion or not, not that religion or something else (for example here in some parts of the U.S. it's not uncommon to run into the opinion that you're either Christian or going to hell, no gray there for many people). The transgender dilemma (of which crossdressing is a part) makes it difficult if not impossible to categorize someone as one thing or another. Transgender individuals are by nature not black or white, easily categorized as male or female, we are gray, and human culture for the most part are uncomfortable with gray. Think about all the effort the medical community goes through to make an intersex child fit into the category of male or female. If our societies and cultures were more comfortable with diversity (more undefinable grays) I think we would find more acceptance of transgender folk. As we as a human culture become more aware and accepting of the diversity that we share, we will naturally become more accepting of those in our midst who don't fit nicely into one box or another. My two cents, for what it's worth.

[GingerLeigh]

Holly,
Thanks for posting this :)
I am not a DR. but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn before, ..

It's not the Clothing per say, its what it resembles how one acts when dressed or how you are percieved by others when dressed.. Walk around naked , you will be noticed, a guy wearing a dress is just a Taboo.. Nothing in this world is more natural then walking around naked . But yet it raises eye brows and can get you arrested..

There is nothing wrong in wearing clothing, are you wearing makeup as well? Are you in a wig and pumps? This is telling others that you are not JUST WEARING CLOTHING.. You are telling others you have a Femme/Masculin side that needs to be expressed. something that unless they have a Femme/Masculin side them selfs would never understand.. So without understanding you walking around or yearing the desire to express the Femme side you have are considered a freak!! Just as you would be if you were to walk around naked..

I can throw on a male pair of jeans, a male shirt.. Put a wig on ,throw some makeup on and then some heels and look just as Femme without having any female clothing exposed..

Cute, I stayed at a Best Western once and it was a dump. No, I'm not a doctor either.

It's just clothing, sure. But it means something.

Clothing tells others which "tribe" you identify with or belong to. See two teenagers walking side by side on the street. One sporting a military style haircut, wearing khakis and a polo shirt and the other with a spiked mohawk and ripped shirt/shorts/suspenders and doc martin boots. Both the same age, same school same neighborhood. Who would you trust to watch your kids? Do you know if the punk is a valedictorian that volunteers at the local food bank or that the khaki clad lad is a juvenile delinquent? No we don't, but we as a society we pigeonhole people by how they project themselves. See a punk? He must be an anarchist bad-ass. See a man in a dress? He must be a homosexual.

That said,

Why do people fear homosexuality so much? I have no idea. Maybe everyone fears exploring their own sexuality, that they too may harbor feelings that are taboo. Best way to avoid being thought of as homosexual or different, is to shut out those that are.

Ginger

[Avana]

Why do people fear homosexuality so much? I have no idea. Maybe everyone fears exploring their own sexuality, that they too may harbor feelings that are taboo. Best way to avoid being thought of as homosexual or different, is to shut out those that are.


I personally believe it is because beyond the belief people have that male and female are natural opposites (and thus that same sex relations are unnatural) male homosexuality is a threat to male privilege and the masculine values that dominate most of the world. This is especially true with effeminate gay men, who receive the majority of the hate.

I believe that female homosexuality is also seen as a threat to men and masculine values, but I think in general it's more accepted for two women to have a dinner date, kiss, hold hands, etc, etc. Especially if both of those women conform to gender norms.

[ReineD]

that's not entirely true.

Yes, I am familiar with the Hijra, Berdache, Kathoey, etc. You forgot one: The Fa'afafine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa'afafine)! :)

I said "taboo in most cultures". Not all. If you'd like to believe that the major cultures of the world in terms of population have and continue to embrace transgenders and homosexuals, be my guest!



As far as the theory about 'reptilian' brains, I hope you're just stating what people generally believe and not that this is your opinion!

The reptilian brain is responsible for our basic instincts (but since I 'm not a an expert in neuroscience, I may have used the wrong term :p) and yes, as stated, I submit a possible explanation as to why people in general do not embrace and champion transgenders ... and homosexuals for that matter, despite the huge progress made by the gay rights movement in recent decades.

You can say the explanation I brought forth is silly ... but it's not me that needs convincing, it's the non-supportive world.

Edit -
Many people have brought up the idea that bias exists in our society because the male privilege is compromised. Without getting into anthropological accuracy, surely the notion of male privilege is a construct of modern (ish) society? In primitive societies, wouldn't both men and women have combined their abilities in order to survive, there would have been no thought of a superior vs. an inferior gender, but rather just different bodies to fulfill different functions? And wouldn't a tribal member who could not contribute to everyone's welfare or survival be cast aside?

I'm making a mental note to read about primitive gender roles and survival practices. It's a fascinating topic.

[Stephanie47]

Holly, I think an older cross-dresser may be able to answer the question on behalf of some gg's. My first true experiences as a cross-dresser were in my mid-teens. Now, I am relating to the early 1960's. This was an era when sex did not exist outside of yearning for the inaccessible young women in the neighborhood. Playboy was the sole reading material at the news stand. Anything past Playboy was porn. The Victoria Secrets advertisements that arrive in our mailbox today would be self stimulation reading back then.

Homosexuality was condemned as a sin that would get you to hell on the express train. Men with longish hair were termed 'hippies.' I remember sitting in the family car driving behind a car with two MEN sitting close with the rider having his arm on the back of the seat behind the driver. My mother and father did not hold back their views on those 'fags.' The Kinsey Report was held behind the desk at the local library. How the hell would a teenager get the nerve to check it out? There were no movies or sitcoms on television that portrayed anything but straight loving man and women lifestyles. Lucy and Desi slept in twin beds.

So, the male and female perspectives for my age group was anything deviating from the norm was deviant. Cross-dressers were viewed as homosexuals. So, I found myself in turmoil. Was I a homosexual (ugh!) because I liked putting on my mother's clothes-everything from the bras and girdles to her dresses? I drooled over the pretty girls in school, on the block, movie stars, etc. The owner of the newspaper stand yelled at me when I tried to nudge myself over to Playboy and flip the pages. "Get the hell away from there!"

So, the females in the 1960's were exposed to the same belief structure. And, as they got older they wore those poodle skirts, tight sweaters and bullet bras to attract men, who stuffed a pair of rolled up socks in the pants.

To find out your boyfriend or husband liked to dress as a woman was to find out he was gay. I think that still is the pervasive attitude. If it does not affect you, then people now tend to look the other way. Of course, there are guys who are more than willing to beat up gays and cross-dressers for no reason other than they are different.

My wife tolerates my cross-dressing. She knows after forty years that I am otherwise a nice guy. She knows I am not gay. She knows that I do not chase other women. She wishes I were a bland guy, pure vanilla, rather than a cross-dresser. As to me. I wish I was not a cross-dresser. It would have made life less complicated and less frustrating. My wife is horrified that someone will find out. Somehow it would reflect upon her? I vividly remember my wife and her cousin whispering in the kitchen thirty years ago about the cousins close friend, who lived down the block from us. She divorced her husband because she discovered he was a cross-dresser. My god, the world came to an end. Poor woman! Isn't that disgusting?

So, why would most women reject a cross-dresser? Well, we are different. It does not matter how great we are in any other facet of life. Society has conditioned both men and women to view different sexual behavior as deviant. Of course, along with gays and lesbians cross-dressers are on the express train to hell! (Chuckle, chuckle)

[Melinda Lou]

It is associated with a private matter of fantasy and deception. It conveys weakness and betrayal of the masculine privilege. It assumes homosexuality which also betrays the masculine privilege.


I've run into some of this in my own relationship, not only the assertion that I'd betrayed the masculine privilege but the claim that I'd usurped a feminine privilege of sorts as well--basically, as the argument went, I was not only being the masculine one in the relationship most of the time but edging into her, feminine territory as well, by wanting to wear lacy lingerie under my clothes and assume other usually feminine affectations (for example, painting my toenails a very girly shade of pink). She felt that she should be the one to be feminine and that I needed to stay on my side of the gender line, since she wasn't claiming that she could move across it the other way. (Which raises the question, as a longtime underdresser, am I unfairly trying to have my gender cake and eat it too, by outwardly presenting as a conventional male and secretly dressing as a female underneath? Or is this just my individual expression of gender on a long and granular continuum?)

[Thalia]

Holly: It's been two years and I've rehashed this with my wife and a psychologist (who, btw is very good with transgender issues). I don't know if I can put it as succinctly as my wife but she tells me that the brain is the largest sex organ. If I want to pretend I'm a female (sometimes) she is creeped out because no matter what I tell her, she claims she will never know when I am "feeling female" and it could very well be during sex. That brings the lesbian aspect into the picture (from her perspective). She also claims that she is attracted to a macho-type man and after seeing me (and some photos) of me enfemme, the sex appeal she once felt towards me is no longer there. It does not help that she has done extensive research and some crossdressers have admitted to having such thoughts (female) during sex.

[MrKunk]

it is the mentality of the majority of the people in our society. What they don't understand they will not accept.

[Holly]

Holly, I'm surprised you would ask this...Sorry. I didn't mean to surprise you, Jonieanne :eek:. I asked the question for basically two reasons. One- I wanted to stimulate a conversation on the act of cross dressing without the encumbrances of the deception, the lying, etc that so often gets drawn into the conversation. Those are legitimate concerns and worthy of discussion as well, but I was purposely trying to keep the scope of this discussion narrow. And I appreciate all the input you and the other contributors have made. The second reason is that I was trying to discover, admittedly in a most unscientific study, if there was a common denominator in why cross dressing is viewed in such a negative way by a very large segment of the world population.
...much of crossdressing is connected to eroticism and very often in an unbalanced way. Just check the internet...This is true but again I would ask why is this so? I would suggest that it is because of misinformation and conclusions based on that flawed information.
Most all of us have dressed because of the turn-on factor. (Just watch how many will say "Not me!!!)Not me :D. Of course you are right; many of us have. But I would suggest that the majority of us did so during adolescence/puberty and as we became more sexually mature and self-aware, the turn-on factor diminished or completely went away. Arguably it was sexualizing something feminine by a sexually immature male.
...when our SO's find out that we like being in the female role in dress, identity and/or sex, it shatters life long ideas of how to relate. It doesn't fit the ingrain natural pattern. That doesn't mean that it's bad or something is wrong with us, but we struggle with that ourselves, how much more they may struggle. This struggle is what tears up relationships more than the crossdressing itself...Jonianne, I really like this thought. So what we need to discover is a way to control the struggle. Any ideas?
I think the only way to change the perspective others can see, is to open up when possible and let them see inside our hearts, that we are good people - complex genderwise - but genuine good people. And that would mean showing respect to others and letting them see we may be different, but we nontheless have a good and healthy balance in our lives.I couldn't agree more!


I think you are right, RJ.
This IS how OTHERS perceive us.
They are wrong, of course.This is another way of saying there is a lack of understanding and more education is needed. :)


I know I'm speaking simplistically and in very broad terms, but the simple answer just may be that our reptilian brains (unless otherwise enlightened) view non-conformative gender and sexuality behaviors as a threat to the propagation of our species. These behaviors have been taboo in most cultures for I don't know how long. Perhaps since the beginning.[quote]Thanks for taking a stab at this, Renie. I cherish your input. You are the only GG that has had anything to say on the topic. I find that curious in itself.

You may very well be right that there is an under current of thought about the future of mankind. But I have been around here and around the community for a long time and I have never heard anyone say, "Dammit, Harry! Your cross dressing is going to end the human race." Usually it is more along the lines that it is weird, unnatural, sick, etc. [QUOTE=ReineD;2397408]...The biological norms are this: gender matches sexuality and men and women are attracted to the opposite sex. Most people do believe that gender and sexuality are tied together. This is why the first question asked to a TG is, "Are you gay?" I also think that most people outside the GLBTQ community look away the first time they see same-sex couples being sexually affectionate. But, they don't have the same gut-level feeling when they see a man and a woman kissing...I'd go a step further and say most people don't understand there is a difference between gender and sexuality. And just maybe this is where some education needs to take place?


Don't get me wrong, Holly ... I'm not comparing trans behaviors to pestilence or unhealthy lifestyles. I'm just trying to find a way to explain why there is such social anxiety about it.

On the plus side, we do live in an age of cognitive reasoning, and all it takes for most people is a bit of education and first-hand experience with members of the community before they lose their bias, or at least, develop some level of tolerance. :)I understand the comparisons are only for illustrative purposes :). And I do agree with you that we are better off today than ever before because the truth about who we are and what we are is slowly making it's way out of the closet.


Holly, I think an older cross-dresser may be able to answer the question on behalf of some gg's...I'm a more maturetransgendered person myself, but I'd still like to hear from more GG's :D


...My wife is horrified that someone will find out. Somehow it would reflect upon her? I vividly remember my wife and her cousin whispering in the kitchen thirty years ago about the cousins close friend, who lived down the block from us. She divorced her husband because she discovered he was a cross-dresser. My god, the world came to an end. Poor woman! Isn't that disgustingThe assumption, I assume, is that it would reflect negatively on her. If you were a murderer, would it reflect negatively on her as well?


Holly: It's been two years and I've rehashed this with my wife and a psychologist (who, btw is very good with transgender issues). I don't know if I can put it as succinctly as my wife but she tells me that the brain is the largest sex organ. If I want to pretend I'm a female (sometimes) she is creeped out because no matter what I tell her, she claims she will never know when I am "feeling female" and it could very well be during sex. That brings the lesbian aspect into the picture (from her perspective). She also claims that she is attracted to a macho-type man and after seeing me (and some photos) of me enfemme, the sex appeal she once felt towards me is no longer there. It does not help that she has done extensive research and some crossdressers have admitted to having such thoughts (female) during sex.And some women fantasize about having sexual relations with other men while with their partners. It doesn't make them unfaithful anymore than you having female thoughts makes her a lesbian.

If there is any reoccuring theme in this discussion, it seems to be that there is a pile of misinformation out there and we have a lot of educating to do before there will be a more general acceptance of the transgendered community as a whole. And I apologize for the misleading title of this thread. It's not a simple question. It is a complex issue as are most relating to the human condition. All we can do is continue to be the best people we can be and educate those willing to be educated and slowly the tide against us will turn, as I believe it is doing at this very moment. More comments are welcome.

[Avana]

Many people have brought up the idea that bias exists in our society because the male privilege is compromised. Without getting into anthropological accuracy, surely the notion of male privilege is a construct of modern (ish) society? In primitive societies, wouldn't both men and women have combined their abilities in order to survive, there would have been no thought of a superior vs. an inferior gender, but rather just different bodies to fulfill different functions? And wouldn't a tribal member who could not contribute to everyone's welfare or survival be cast aside?

I'm making a mental note to read about primitive gender roles and survival practices. It's a fascinating topic.

That may be true, I'm not familiar with the scholarship on that.

I did read one really interesting book called "The Alphabet Versus the Goddess" by Leonard Shlain, which posited that a rise in masculine privilege/values was directly related to the deveopment of the alphabet! Basically the idea that Shlain puts forth (he is a neuroscientist but this still seems kind of oppositional sexist), is that the intrinsically female way of thinking is holistic and 'all-at-once', whereas the intrinsically male way of thinking is compartmental and sequential. He then describes how pre-alphabetic cultures worshipped mostly females and had a distinctively more female way of thinking of the cosmos, and how this was reflected both in their languages, which were typically pictographic or hieroglyphic, and their governmental/social systems, which were not divided into caste systems, did not rely on definitions of property, etc.

So then he goes on to posit that the development of the alphabet basically enabled men to dominate society, by basically re-inventing language and societal structure according to the way they think, obviously putting them in a position of privilege. Alphabetic language is read in a sequential manner, where strict rules of syntax are required to decode the meaning, and the social structural changes that accompanied the development of the alphabet in many cultures also coincided with strict rules and stratified government (Hammurabi's code in the case of the Babylonians for instance), as well as a stratified class structure, and stratified gender roles...

[ReineD]

I did read one really interesting book called "The Alphabet Versus the Goddess" by Leonard Shlain, which posited that a rise in masculine privilege/values was directly related to the deveopment of the alphabet!

Yes, this is interesting! I looked Shlain up. He wrote a book on Art & Physics that I'd like to read.

He also wrote "Sex, Time, & Power" where he examines evolution from a female perspective. He suggests that because the explosion in size of the human brain endangered women's lives while giving birth, and because women have a desperate need for iron (to replenish the iron lost during menses), women developed the strategy of decoupling sex and reproduction. They also mated with men who could supply them with meat. This is what forced men to change their habits, since they became interested in being what the females wanted them to be, in order to have sex.

I don't know if Shlain's hypotheses have much basis in fact or if they are purely speculative, but they certainly are thought provoking.

[sissystephanie]

Holly, when I said that men are special I meant only because according to societal norms men are supposed to dress in well known ways. Of course, as MTF crossdressers we don't do that!! As I believe I said, the majority of society doesn't understand why we dress the way we do, so they think it is wrong. Personally, I don't care what they think. It is my life, and as long as I am not hurting anyone I will do what I want!!

[DianeDeBris]

Wonderful thread! Kudos first to Holly for a fine job of narrowing the focus to the dressing and the feminine presentation itself (as distinguished from the separate problems of deception, etc). As everyone has noted, males who wear female garb push some very hot buttons in others; and she has tuned our attention onto the precise question of "why does anybody care?"
And this leads me directly to Reine's excellent observations about the reptilian brain. This insight, properly understood, can help us understand better the vehemence that many people feel about what we do. Note, please, that I said "feel," rather than "think." The powerful negative reactions our presentation generates in some folks is truly "reptilian." This is not a put-down, or a value judgment or even a negative comment about these folks. The fact (as I believe Reine was trying to make us understand) is that the oldest, most prehistoric part of our human brain has been with us since, literally, the reptilian age. Behaviorists and neuroscientists talk about this as the "reptile brain," meaning simply that it is the oldest, the most primitive part of us -- and that it still functions in the same way it did millions of years ago. It is instantaneous, it is not rational or deliberative; it does not evaluate or make nuances. It knows only Safe and Dangerous, Same and Different. You know that feeling you sometimes have when you meet someone and you just don't feel right about him/her? That's your reptilian brain working. All the higher components of the human brain, and all the higher (cognitive) functions, came along much later than the R.B. did; but it's still a part of us, and it is powerful. We can learn to accept, trust and even value new things -- but we have to work our way past the R.B. in order to do so. The primitive reptile brain saw Different as identical to Dangerous; they were (and still are, to our own R.B.'s) one and the same. The reptile's only options were to flee the danger, or to kill it. This (IMHO) explains the intense vehemence which some people feel toward us.
So, massive thanks to Holly and to Reine, and further thanks to you all for reading these musings. Hugs - Diane

[Lucy_Bella]

Holly,

Its really hard to say anymore, I mean I am sure of how I feel about myself and I allow myself to be labled.. I think that is where most of the mis understanding is comming from, refussing to be labled, and why? If we can not tell or educate others how do we expect others to understand?

Sorry but life comes with lables, You straight, gay ,bi and/or transgender and trans sexual I just happen to be a straight transgender..No body is born 100 percent male or female, if that was the case we wouldn't survive due to the over dose of hormones . There has to be a balance some of us have a little more than others it makes the world a hell of a lot more interesting..

Now we can blame relgion , but then again we can remind everyone that the Pope also wears a dress ..

[Toronto Kristen]

No body is born 100 percent male or female, if that was the case we wouldn't survive due to the over dose of hormones ...
Lucy, I think that you might have identified the basis of the problem. I think that it can be taken as a given that we clearly understand this fact. The problem is that the people (male or female) who react negatively obviously do not recognise this and they believe that a man is a man and a woman is a woman.

[Charise52]

I have noticed that women can wear men's clothes, and they do it because it feels comfortable... no one worries... yet when men wear women's clothes everyone worries... and it is not about looking good... it is about feeling comfortable... I have had GF's thst like to wear men's jeans and flannel shirts... so why can't we wear skirts? I wear women's jeans and tops and sweaters and shorts all the time... and i get away with it... I have worn skirts in public, but I had to do a complete makover first... why should I have to? I figure we should all wear whaterver we want... and society just has not caught up with us yet...

[Toronto Kristen]

I have noticed that women can wear men's clothes, and they do it because it feels comfortable... no one worries... yet when men wear women's clothes everyone worries... and it is not about looking good... it is about feeling comfortable... I have had GF's thst like to wear men's jeans and flannel shirts... so why can't we wear skirts? I wear women's jeans and tops and sweaters and shorts all the time... and i get away with it... I have worn skirts in public, but I had to do a complete makover first... why should I have to? I figure we should all wear whaterver we want... and society just has not caught up with us yet...
It would be great if society could be truly accepting but unfortunately, as a collective unit, society is hypocritical.

[ninapuella]

Its because its against the norm of the society. Everything that is against the norm is disaproved, it doesnt matter what it is. I think it is about psychological stuff too. Ordinary people just dont understand what is going on in a crossdressers head and i can understand that can be frightening. So I guess its both norms and fear to the unknown.

[Joanne f]

I have noticed that women can wear men's clothes, and they do it because it feels comfortable... no one worries... yet when men wear women's clothes everyone worries...

A lot of CDs will openly admit that when they started to cross dress it was for a sexual reason yet you never hear of this from women who wear men's clothes so maybe people worry a little more because they are aware of this , i think that once some wife`s SOs get past this thinking that it is all to do with a sexual thing then they start to look at it more positively but there will always be some that will enjoy it being some sort of sexual thing and some that will never find anything at all to be positive thing about it .

[suzy1]

Holly, you asked what being beautiful means. It means good looking, sexy, hansom, drop dead gorgeous, film star looks.
You question if being beautiful helps you to be more acceptable in society.
Of course it does!
We may not like the real world but we are living in it.

SUZY

[Kelly Greene]

Holly
I think it has to do with fear, cders are seen as perverts who are either trying to lurer men into a homosexual encounter or some one who is trying to find a way to attack their wife/daughter. Just think about some of the arguments about glbt rights and the "bathroom" argument against a law guaranteeing gltb rights.

I see the biggest problem as fear, and resistance to change we are societies bad guy and we become accepted society has to find a new bad guy.

[Joann Smith]

I honestly think that society in general views crossdressing as bad because ...we as a group (crossdressers, trans...ect ) do nothing to challange those preceptions...We hide and sneek around lie about it and deny. ..We let the media get away with degrading crossdressers and transfolk.. and assoiate this activtie with all other kinds of perverted acts that in many instances has nothing with crossdressing.

We as a group are in part to blame for our own bad image through our and inaction and shame.

Joann

[robin1991]

honestly people dont think crossdressing is weird(as far i know but yea iam still young :P)
its more the shock they get when they find out and then they just dont know what to do and ignore or go being negative in it
but i do think because of the news and whats in the paper/on the internet people think bad of it of what they see and hear wich is a shame because the news allmost never shows good news :(
but yea i didnt go outside as a girl yet but i do wanna go try this summer.

and iam really think i will be ok because even when iam walking arround as a boy people think iam a girl lol

[Sandra]

I honestly think that society in general views crossdressing as bad because ...we as a group (crossdressers, trans...ect ) do nothing to challange those preceptions...We hide and sneek around lie about it and deny. ..We let the media get away with degrading crossdressers and transfolk.. and assoiate this activtie with all other kinds of perverted acts that in many instances has nothing with crossdressing.


True to a point, some trans folk are out there and trying to correct things...I'll throw in the way that some trans folk dress. You walk down the street and see a trans person in a short skirt/dress, killer heels made up to the nines, and popping into Tescos lol in other words they stand out, ok they may want to but some in society views this as just not right and tar all trans with the same brush. No doubt some of you will jump in and say I don't dress like that but still have had altercations in the street...IMHO this has probably happened because you have been tarred with the brush.

It only takes a few people to say "did you see this or that" and word gets around, and you get the comments " It's not right, they must be up to no good, they are just plain weird, they are perverts etc" We've all heard it.

When I told my mum about Nigella the first thing she said to be was " well you have no sex then" I asked why she said that her reply was "well they are all the same" my mum knew nothing about trans folk but put them together with the gay community, infact she said well "he must be gay" I tried to explain but it fell on deaf ears. She had been brought up in a society where it was black and white and no gray

Society is very blinkered at times and it takes us a a group to open those blinkers and try to educate more.

Dunno if this makes any sense or not.

[sally silverfox]

Anyone that is different from mainstream society regardless of the issue is immediately suspect.We,not all of us,tend to prejudge people based on stereotypes and ignorance.Our ridgid puritanical history fuels fires of hate and results in many of us being ostasized and persecuted be it our sexual pesuasion,skin color,religion or some other imagained deviation from the "normal".I wish I could be "out" but I must admit I'm not ready for the grief that follows.I applaud those of you brave enough to face these problems head on.

[Sarah Doepner]

Okay Holly, here's my attempt.

We live in an uncertain world. Success in navigating those treacherous waters generally relies on stability and the ability to replicate productive strategies time after time. The ideal expenditure of effort is to find those successful patterns and move through them on "cruise control" so we have more energy and focus to enhance success. When the world becomes untethered in one way or another it makes things difficult. When we have to move off of "cruise control" because what we normally expect has suddenly changed, it can be an irritant. When the change is in a concept as basic as our expectations on the stability of gender, there is a need to come up with an answer quickly. Without proper information, that is the lack of education we have addressed in this and other posts, the explanation is most often, simplistic, reptilian and wrong.

There is nothing inherently wrong with crossdressing. The wrong comes from the responses and attempts to shoehorn it into places that are just plain wrong or misleading. As long as the sight of a crossdresser forces people off "cruise control" and they have nothing factual to base their experience on, anything can happen. So yes, the answer is education and role models that make crossdressing understandable.

[ikthys]

I agree that, when I actually think about it, our "society" doesn't exactly have a big problem with CDing. Sure, it's still not quite used to it and there is some stigma attached, but not necessarily a strong revulsion. However, SO's do have that strong negative reaction. Even ignoring the lies/deception issue, they are upset because they want to have a man as their husband and he desires to present as the opposite. I've heard many CDers say that it's more about presenting female than it is about any particular type of clothing items. Even if the wife feels no threat to her heterosexuality (which she very well may), she is in fact usually hetereosexual and therefore not happy about being married and in bed with someone who presents as the same gender.

[RACH99]

What is wrong with cross dressing?[...] What is it about the cross dressing itself (not the lying, deceit, hiding, etc.) that threatens one-on-one relationships and tears apart families? How have we allowed clothing choices to become so powerful? [...]I am particularly interested in hearing from our Loved Ones who have struggled with this issue.

Oh Holly. I have come back to this thread over and over again. Trying to find the answers in my head and make some sense. But the answers lay in my heart so here goes.... taking the lying, deceit, etc out of it..... There is nothing intricately wrong with cross-dressing that education would not fix IMHO. I know this is a very simple answer to a complex question but that is the only thing that changed my POV. Learning about cross-dressing itself and the people who live with dressing themselves or via a loved one. I truly wish I was a wise woman who could give a very educated answer but I am not a highly educated woman. I'm just a woman who loves her SO and refused to walk away without one hellva' fight to make things right between us again.

I found my own truth about this the long way around because it wasn't offered up freely [I won't go into that right now] I have struggled with the answers to this many times and talked with my DH and the others I have met here and slowly began to see things. I could see my husband again and not some big question mark that I was afraid of. I could see the one I loved best in the world without fear. The unknown being a very scary thing in itself. I learned to face my fears day by day and I found I could "see" my love again because I was once again looking with my heart and not just my eyes. It didn't matter overly much any more what he did or didn't wear. Whether he shaved twice a day or not at all. I saw him as the most beautiful person I know because love sees with the heart and not the eyes.

So I guess the short answer is there isn't a dam thing wrong with it Holly. :)

[Mimi]

Okay, I'll weigh in with a GG opinion:

Logically, there should be nothing wrong with a man wearing women's clothing or cosmetics, yet it is still a taboo and shocking to many people. Perhaps much of it has to do with the fact that in our society, boys are told from birth onwards that they are not to act like girls in any way--nothing is more insulting to a boy than to be labeled a sissy (the message being that girls are weak and inferior). He is told not to cry, not to play with dolls, and that bullying is just "boys being boys", and to fight back. Okay, I'm generalizing and not everybody raises their boys this way, but it is pretty pervasive in our culture, especially in the past decades. This attitude is known to everybody--girls see boys being told to act a certain way, so they have expectations, and it becomes ingrained to expect the male to present as a male, and if he presents as a female or emulates a female, it goes against everything she's every been taught.

Maybe because men have traditionally held the power in society, they have viewed the idea that a man who would want to emulate the inferior half of the species is crazy, and implies that he is weak. I think Reine's idea that women may be programmed (subconsciously) to look for hunters and providers, not just reproductive mates, is an interesting notion. There is probably a lot going on in our attitudes that are hard-wired into our brains, and were relevant thousands of years ago, but not relevant now. Yet they still linger.

Also remember that in some societies, a woman absolutely would not be allowed to dress as a man, and it has only been in the last century that women in our country could dress in pants. My mother, who is in her 80s, told me how much she longed to wear pants as a child, and was only allowed to on certain occasions, and it was quite a point of contention growing up. So perhaps as a society we are simply evolving, and people will look back on us and wonder how it was that people were beaten up or divorced for simply wanting to wear a dress.

Mimi
Eryn's GG

[Kaz]

We live in a hi-tech, globalised knowledge society and we think we are very clever and superior. The reality is that we are still cavemen - we have not evolved psychologically. So we seek out tribes to be part of. The technology has moved quicker than biological processes do.

Prior to the net, CDs as a "tribe", were disconnectd and therefore individuals out on a limb... now we are almost close to becoming a tribe... this site is a facilitator of this.

Sadly most non-CDs are members of other tribes, and tribes have "values", "rules", all that stuff.

Sadly, CD don't fit into mostcurrent tribes, and when it comes to families and SOs... it is again a close knit tribe...

We are a tribal race at all levels...

[Brynna M]

I think it's the idea of a man presenting as female. Many men are to a greater or lesser degree afraid of being attracted to another man. Men trying to appear like women only heighten the fear that one day they will be attracted to a woman only to discover "she" is male. As for women, though I never thought about it, I liked the idea presented earlier that we are stepping on women's toes so to speak and there is probably some perception that we or doing it for reasons that would be disapproved of (attracting men to a homosexual encounter or deriving some deviate sexual pleasure). I would guess the thought process goes like this; we are using women's appearance (which we are) and it is assumed we are doing it for negative reasons (which in general we are not) and possibly giving anyone who looks like a woman a bad name or at least make people question the motives or someone who appears female.

My random theories aside.. My fiance and i discussed it (she's not a fan but we are still together). Her concerns were that I was only doing it to attract men and that I would end up eventually either being gay or wanting to transition and she would lose the relationship. Also she feared that she wasn't attracted to someone feminine and that may damage the relationship.

The only other thing I will add is that in general more understanding would seem to be a good thing but visceral emotional attitudes toward things are very hard to change with education. (racism and homophobia are alive and well despite strong movements to counter them)

my 1.5 cents. ( I someday hope to have and opinion worth 2 cents.)

[busker]

If you take a brief glance at the history of clothing, it is obvious that everything that women wear, men have worn first. In the 1350's men wore what today would be tights. Largely throughout the history men have worn fairly tight breeches or pants (cloth is expensive, difficult to make). Kings wore breeches, silk stockings, corsets, wigs, makeup and all sorts of things that are now reserved for women ONLY.
To a large extent, we have "fashion" designers who have influenced what society wears and considers to be gender appropriate. There are modern designers who have tried the androgynous look (see Pejic in a dress, he wears no forms or bra, but is impressive looking as a model). Over thec enturies, design changes, what is in fashion goes out of fashion, the everyday work has become so much more different that simplicity becomes the norm. When I first went to college, I wore a coat, tie,slacks, shoes socks and yes, even underwear. Today, the kids who go to that same college wear clothing that is either black, torn, exceedingly small, dirty, they wear chains, hobnailed boots, purple hair, you name it--but very few women wear dresses!
So a guy in a dress not only sticks out, he doesn;t conform to society's current fashion on an everyday level. The pervert part we already get. It may get even more difficult is coming years as more and more women wear "mens' fashions" to the exclusion of their fashion which could easily disappear. blending is about the only real way to do it on a daily basis for crossdressers.
There is always haute couture in NYC or LA or SF or London, but is not the norm these days.
If fashion designers are able to turn around what the average joe wears, things might happen, but looking at the number of people who seem to be les and less educated, I have no great hopes. The predicament for crossdressers is also worldwide, so perception is a great part of the problem. If we were to succeed in more public dressing, it could be that we would get what the glbt are getting, some acceptance, out of sight, out of mind kind of acceptance.
Just having a look at what people react to polically and the sorts of people that make the news these days, should give everyone a clue about how they are going to be accepted as crossdressers. Don't think for a minute that someone like Sarah Palin wouldn't be having a field day with crossdressers--it's UNGODLY, what we do.
We have a number of memebrs here from around the world, and pretty much it is the same story--we are if not hated, certainly despised for the creeps that we appear to them to be.
The lie we've been told over and over again they we are sophisticated, rich, the greatest nation in the world, was simply a lie from the ministry of propaganda (aka the WH press office). We made assumptions that educated people would be more open intellectually and more accepting of alternate anythings, but I rather doubt that many of us sexigenarians (that's people over 60) will live to see the day.
So, keep dressing in your closets, run to the malls when you can, and enjoy you time on earth. THe journey's the thing, not the destination.

[ReineD]

Largely throughout the history men have worn fairly tight breeches or pants (cloth is expensive, difficult to make). Kings wore breeches, silk stockings, corsets, wigs, makeup and all sorts of things that are now reserved for women ONLY.

I know you're just making a side point, but I'd like to comment because your point has been made many times in this forum.

It's important to remember that even though in past centuries rich men (not the peasants) wore brocade, ruffles, heels, feathers, wigs, etc, their dress style was masculine for their time and still very different from feminine styles. And men's motives for wearing wigs, ruffles, heels, etc were different than they are today.

151124 151125

A man wearing a gown such as Madame Sophie's here would have been looked at with raised eyebrows. The comparison shouldn't be between female styles now and male styles then, but how the styles differentiate male from female within the same time period.

[busker]

I know you're just making a side point, but I'd like to comment because your point has been made many times in this forum.

It's important to remember that even though in past centuries rich men (not the peasants) wore brocade, ruffles, heels, feathers, wigs, etc, their dress style was masculine for their time and still very different from feminine styles. And men's motives for wearing wigs, ruffles, heels, etc were different than they are today.

151124 151125

A man wearing a gown such as Madame Sophie's here would have been looked at with raised eyebrows. The comparison shouldn't be between female styles now and male styles then, but how the styles differentiate male from female within the same time period.

Hi Reine,
Well, I glad I've fallen in with like-minded folks. Your point is well-taken, but then how is that the dress of both genders today is drifting together? Women have been wearing pants now for perhaps 100 years, a little (I actually have photographs of women dressed as men from around 1900), more though since the 20's when Garbo and Dietrich began wearing them and made them fashionable. Garbo originally wore them in a movie, liked them and began to wear them regularly perhaps to express that "bi" personality we ofter hear about with regard to her sex life. She was very popular and was able to pull it off. Hepburn came much later. It is still ILLEGAL in Paris in 2011 for women to wear pants--the French government has turned a blind eye.
If we talk about differentiating styles, why do women insist on wearing pants with a zipper in front? There in nothing there that requires a zipper for an exit. Shouldn't the zipper be on the side, back or none? So if fact, the styles of pants today DO NOT differentiate males and females. SO why not creat dresses for men, which have no accomodation for breasts (CDs probably wouldn't wear them), just flat fronts with all the rest of the fashion intact? The new androgynous male model Pejic can be seen wearing such dresses. Why do women get to wear shorter--much shorter--shorts than men, and why do men who wear shorter shorts get labeled as "fags"? Shouldn't shorts just be shorts without sexual context?
Men wear toupees but wigs are taboo? It is OK for both sexes to have an "Afro" so where is the differentiation? The pointed comb?
Popular culture and entertainment make many things acceptable, so maybe we need more movies of drag queens, more festivals, more of everything that shows lifestyle diversity.
I recently saw Tootsie and I think it is a movie the general public can get behind in the dislike for men in dresses and what happens when two "men" get together. The Hoffman character wasn't a success (in his acting career or in his personal life) and I read the subtle message about homophobia and crossdressing to be a major part of the movie. That is of course, my personal interpretation.
:2c:

[ReineD]

but then how is that the dress of both genders today is drifting together?

I agree, we seem to be adopting a universal androgynous style: jeans, Tshirts, and sneakers. :) Even so, when we go to the mall, we know who are the girls and who are the boys. The differences are more subtle than the clothes, although stylish fashions certainly do enhance femininity. And masculinity.

I was just making a point about 18th C clothing against the argument of using past male fashions as a justification for saying that men should be able to wear the same thing now. To say that leggings, lace, and ruffles could be considered men's clothing now (I know you didn't say this, but others have) just because they were centuries ago is not a solid argument.

I agree that we all should have the freedom to dress as we please. And if there was a demand for male dresses and skirts, the designers and the fashion industry would be right on it. But, there isn't ... unless you consider male sarongs and kilts that are already a part of some cultures, historically. There have been attempts at getting manskirts off the ground (from several high fashion designers), but I guess they just haven't been popular. Fashions come into popular culture when there is a demand for them. Not the other way around.

I asked the question once and posted links to several manskirt pics (http://nymag.com/daily/fashion/2008/07/are_you_ready_for_men_in_skirt_1.html), if the CDs here would wear them. Most said, "Ugh, no. Not feminine enough". If you go into the Gallery, most pics are definitely not attempts at portraying a man in a dress.

As to women wanting to wear pants: they did so because they disliked unequal social standards, not because they wanted to present as men. Women wanted to be seen as equals and they wanted the same freedoms that men had. This also meant wearing pants, since wearing dresses restrict the freedom of movement.

And as to the zipper: it is much easier to take the pants off, if they are not made of stretchy material. Women have a lower hip/waist ratio, and this is the biggest difference between male & female jeans. It's a subtle difference, I know, but when you just look at the derrière, you can tell from the back if a person is a she or a he (if he's not wearing hip pads).

Edit - I agree that the more there are positive portrayals of TGs in the media, the more CDing will be understood and hopefully social anxiety about it will diminish. But, I don't think greater understanding will make more males want to wear feminine skirts, if they are not TG to begin with.

[Ash Leland]

Just last night I went to this meet and greet thing for elementary education majors and the faculty of the education department and I couldn't help but wonder, where exactly could I teach middle school and dress at the same time? To the best of my knowledge, nowhere.

A lot of great points have been raised here. I particularly agree with Tania and Suzy. What makes the Ideal Male so monolothic is that, for a lot of people, it's one of the first dynamics they encounter in family life. At the risk of sounding cynical, most long-lived marriages that I know of have a dominant partner and a submissive partner, and I've never meant an entirely happy submissive. There always seems to be an element of suffering, but that's beside the point. What I was getting at was that lots of people grow up in families that have a firmly established hierarchy, and the father is often at the top. So there are a lot of people thinking that hierarchy is the key to order and security, and invariant masculinity is essential to it. When these people see a crossdresser, their basic idea of order is being threatened. This is particularly evident in the fact that people who are not typically gendered are usually kept from working in close proximity to children (hence my worries about getting a teaching job)- children are still forming their conceptions of the world and no one wants them to learn that gender variance is okay.

I liked what Suzy said because it has two interesting dimensions- the first being that things that are sexually appealing to males generally are accepted and encouraged, but when people see a crossdresser who is not so attractive, the sexual aspect goes away for them and they see the behavior on it's own, which they naturally despise. The subtext seems to be "do whatever you want, gender bend all you want so long as you do it in a way that's appealing to us"....then, as wbradm pointed out, there's the hairy issue of whether or not being attracted to a crossdresser makes one straight or gay or what (naive I know, but common).

[Lucy_Bella]

Bunker,

I think what Renie is trying to say is that for some here , it's not just the clothing or the emulating that defines Fashion ( clothing ) ..Just as I mentioned in another post ,..I can wear mens jeans a t-shirt put the hair and make-up on and look every bit as femme then in womens appearal .. But that doesn't work for me and has nothing to do with satisfying the Cding urge. Yes I can look femme in mens clothing but the feel is different .. For me it has to be the female clothing .

I can not explain why and it is only certain female clothing that works so maybe it's more of a fetish I have developed when I was 3 years old. I have no clue other than how these certain female clothing feels to my male body..

[Jonianne]

.....If there is any reoccuring theme in this discussion, it seems to be that there is a pile of misinformation out there.....

Thank you Holly for this thread. Talking about it does help us to get to some possible answers.

I think as far as the "misinformation out there", we have to try to sort out what exactly is misinformation and what is not. I think sometimes in trying to deny or mimimize the sexual aspect, we end up sounding disinguenious to others outside of our community, especially when most of what they see about crossdressing is evidence otherwise. I think it's important to acknowledge that, yes, probably most cd'ers do find that there is often an erotic componant in dressing and, for some, that is the only reason for crossdressing. While others, as in your case, it does fade with time and with others, as myself, there will always likely be a mix of many reasons.

I think the truth that does need to get out, however, is that most of us are reasonable and in control. Most of us do care and respect how others see us and would never want to do anything to hurt or bring shame upon our family. Most of us are ordinary loving people that mind our own business. That's why you only see the extremes and don't see the majority of us who do try to keep the balance of meeting our needs within the bounds of meeting the needs of our loved ones.

I think the real "misinformation" comes from being painted by the broad brush of negativity and that is very hard to change.



I honestly think that society in general views crossdressing as bad because ...we as a group (crossdressers, trans...ect ) do nothing to challange those preceptions...We hide and sneek around lie about it and deny. ..We let the media get away with degrading crossdressers and transfolk.. and assoiate this activtie with all other kinds of perverted acts that in many instances has nothing with crossdressing.

We as a group are in part to blame for our own bad image through our and inaction and shame.

Joann

Well said.


True to a point, some trans folk are out there and trying to correct things...I'll throw in the way that some trans folk dress. You walk down the street and see a trans person in a short skirt/dress, killer heels made up to the nines, and popping into Tescos lol in other words they stand out, ok they may want to but some in society views this as just not right and tar all trans with the same brush. No doubt some of you will jump in and say I don't dress like that but still have had altercations in the street...IMHO this has probably happened because you have been tarred with the brush.

It only takes a few people to say "did you see this or that" and word gets around, and you get the comments " It's not right, they must be up to no good, they are just plain weird, they are perverts etc" We've all heard it.

......Society is very blinkered at times and it takes us a a group to open those blinkers and try to educate more.

Dunno if this makes any sense or not.

Sandra, it makes all the sense in the world to me.


Okay, I'll weigh in with a GG opinion:

Logically, there should be nothing wrong with a man wearing women's clothing or cosmetics, yet it is still a taboo and shocking to many people. Perhaps much of it has to do with the fact that in our society, boys are told from birth onwards that they are not to act like girls in any way--nothing is more insulting to a boy than to be labeled a sissy (the message being that girls are weak and inferior). He is told not to cry, not to play with dolls, and that bullying is just "boys being boys", and to fight back. Okay, I'm generalizing and not everybody raises their boys this way, but it is pretty pervasive in our culture, especially in the past decades. This attitude is known to everybody--girls see boys being told to act a certain way, so they have expectations, and it becomes ingrained to expect the male to present as a male, and if he presents as a female or emulates a female, it goes against everything she's every been taught....

Mimi, I think you have a good understanding of what's' going on.

How do we remidy the "misinformation"?

Being dead level honest with ourselves is the first step. Being honest in our relationships. Work on self-acceptance and letting go of the false shame and guilt, but owning up to the real guilt we may have by our selfishness. Then being as open as we can (within our ability and within reason) with others and letting them get to know us. Obviously we are not going to change the world, but we can be a light in our little corner of it.

[NicoleScott]

Could it be that we, through evolution, are predisposed to repel or reject gender-bending activities?
I saw a TV show in which 20 or so volunteers were asked to smell t-shirts worn by random people, and rate the smell along a scale from repulsive to attractive. What the participants didn't know is that the researchers included a shirt worn by a blood relative. It turns out that the shirts worn by blood relatives were consistently rated among the most repulsive. What's up with this? The hypothesis (theory? I'm not a scientist) is that nature, through evolution, uses our sense of smell and production of certain chemcals to reject blood relatives as potential sexual partners because...well, they stink. We don't realize it, but we are programmed to avoid incest. Nature knows that a blood relative isn't the best choice to mix genes with for carrying on a strong, healthy species. Our brains processed what our noses took in. Our brains also process what our eyes and ears take in. Could it be that when we see gender-bending behavior, our brains set up defenses?

[busker]

Could it be that we, through evolution, are predisposed to repel or reject gender-bending activities?
I saw a TV show in which 20 or so volunteers were asked to smell t-shirts worn by random people, and rate the smell along a scale from repulsive to attractive. What the participants didn't know is that the researchers included a shirt worn by a blood relative. It turns out that the shirts worn by blood relatives were consistently rated among the most repulsive. What's up with this? The hypothesis (theory? I'm not a scientist) is that nature, through evolution, uses our sense of smell and production of certain chemcals to reject blood relatives as potential sexual partners because...well, they stink. We don't realize it, but we are programmed to avoid incest. Nature knows that a blood relative isn't the best choice to mix genes with for carrying on a strong, healthy species. Our brains processed what our noses took in. Our brains also process what our eyes and ears take in. Could it be that when we see gender-bending behavior, our brains set up defenses?

I guess the European Royals had cotton in their noses and no tastebuds on their tongues. Their gene-pool is so shallow a flea could swim its length. Some of kings were queens, some had big jaws (Hapsburg jaw) and yes, there were crossdressers among them, and one slasher, at least.

Curious about the "odor test". Though I could never smell my own "scent", my ex was highly sensitive to it, and always talked about my "smell". I guess I did stink after all. GRH! (= gaffaw right here)

[Eryn]

Just what makes these gender roles "essential" and who made that determination?

Mother Nature. The big strong ones who didn't bear the young were the ones assigned the protection and provisioning roles. They were more expendable. This isn't true in the modern context, but the point being discussed was the origin of these gender roles.


If women have been able to accomplish this, what is holding men back from doing the same thing?

The main thing that pushed women into wider roles was the world wars. Once the myth was "women couldn't do mens work" was broken many women didn't want to go back to their traditional role. Unfortunately there has not been any similar defining event (and I can't think of any possibility of one) that allows men to break out of their traditional roles.

[busker]

I was just making a point about 18th C clothing against the argument of using past male fashions as a justification for saying that men should be able to wear the same thing now. Well, I was just saying that men wore them first. To say that leggings, lace, and ruffles could be considered men's clothing now (I know you didn't say this, but others have) just because they were centuries ago is not a solid argument. We're always back and forth with styles, so it could be used as a reason to do it. Because the Magna Carta is a 1000 years old, doesn't mean that we should discard it's principles. Or have we?

I agree that we all should have the freedom to dress as we please.We do have the freedom of dress, just not dresses. Men's clothing can be so, what's the word I want here, DRAB? And if there was a demand for male dresses and skirts, the designers and the fashion industry would be right on it. But, there isn't There might be but becasue so many of us are in the closet, one would never be able to find out exactly.... unless you consider male sarongs (for us ,it should be spelled SO WRONGS) and kilts that are already a part of some cultures, historically. There have been attempts at getting manskirts off the ground (from several high fashion designers), but I guess they just haven't been popular. Fashions come into popular culture when there is a demand for them. Not the other way around.

I asked the question once and posted links to several manskirt pics (http://nymag.com/daily/fashion/2008/07/are_you_ready_for_men_in_skirt_1.html), if the CDs here would wear them. Most said, "Ugh, no. Not feminine enough". If you go into the Gallery, most pics are definitely not attempts at portraying a man in a dress.

As to women wanting to wear pants: they did so because they disliked unequal social standards,so, by the same token, men who didn't want to manly, should have been encouraged to wear dresses, n'est pas? not because they wanted to present as mensome may have, Lesbos has been around a long time.. Women wanted to be seen as equals are we speaking here of post world-war 2? and they wanted the same freedoms that men had what's that, 2 hour commute, 9 hours at work, another 2 hour commute? just kidding here. This also meant wearing pants, since wearing dresses restrict the freedom of movementactually, women run much faster in a dress, though there is a modesty issue which is what I think you meant FoM, or in 1900, certainly a weight issue, what will all the petticoats and such, garters, corsets! GRH (=gaffaw right here).

And as to the zipper: it is much easier to take the pants off, if they are not made of stretchy material. Women have a lower hip/waist ratioare you talking about vertical measurement?, and this is the biggest difference between male & female jeansmy waist is 37, hips 39; women's size ten as shown in size charts w32, hips 39(which I wear and they fit like a glove so I don't understand that.. It's a subtle difference, I know, but when you just look at the derrière, you can tell from the back if a person is a she or a he (if he's not wearing hip pads).I actually like to look at the face first if possible. It's a dead giveaway, and I don't have to even bend my neck. LOL

Edit - I agree that the more there are positive portrayals of TGs in the media, the more CDing will be understood and hopefully social anxiety about it will diminish. But, I don't think greater understanding will make more males want to wear feminine skirts, if they are not TG to begin with.Yes, that is is in a nutshell. No point to wearing something for males if one wants to be a crossdresser. I think to a larger degree, the public doesn't like to be fooled and lured into things not of their making. CDers will never have a regular spot in any society. We are consigned to the closet or braving the known world and enjoying our little escapades. Though we are told there are infinite shades of grey, there really is very little to distinguish black from white as far as general (many exceptions though) society is concerned.
my 2 francs worth

[linnea]

I think it is because we upset the apple cart. If we look halfway decent then straight men have mixed feelings towards the woman they see if they realize that woman is actually a man. We threaten their sexual bearings. Rather than being their problem, they put the blame on us for creating those confusing thoughts they're having.

That's my opinion at least for this moment.

I think that Sherrie's point hits a big part of the reason; a woman friend of mine who was visiting San Francisco went to a small grocery store one morning. She wanted coffee and a sweet roll. The person who checked her out was TG; the woman said it made her angry. The TG did not act out in any way, just rang up the coffee, etc. and thanked the woman for shopping there.
But it made her angry, just that individual being TG and presenting as a female.

[NicoleScott]

I guess the European Royals had cotton in their noses and no tastebuds on their tongues. Their gene-pool is so shallow a flea could swim its length. Some of kings were queens, some had big jaws (Hapsburg jaw) and yes, there were crossdressers among them, and one slasher, at least.

Curious about the "odor test". Though I could never smell my own "scent", my ex was highly sensitive to it, and always talked about my "smell". I guess I did stink after all. GRH! (= gaffaw right here)

Sometimes individual circumstances (stupidity, adherence to tradition, etc) trumps nature.
The smell test to avoid incest: it's subconscious; we don't know it's happening. It's really not about stink (maybe I oversimplified it); it's the brain saying "I don't like it. This person's not for me."

[TxKimberly]

Great thread Holly!

You know, I get irritated when I encounter people that think cross dressing is all about sex, or that all cross dressers are sexual "deviants", but I guess I can't fault them for thinking so. There I stand, shouting to the world at the top of my lungs "THAT IS NOT WHAT BEING A CROSS DRESSER OR TRANSSEXUAL IS ABOUT!" and what happens? Sure as hell someone posts explicit pictures in their avatar or their comments on my flickr or facebook accounts showing either their privates or them in the act of giving or getting a blow job, thus undermining the message I try so hard to put out there. THAT'S what I hate about it, and that's gotta be a huge part of why our SO's and others are so reluctant to come around.

[linnea]

I just saw this and most of what I would have said (and a lot more) has already been expressed; I think that fear based on ignorance is what drives most non-accepting people's reactions. It's different from many people's experience and the differences frighten, madden, and worry them. Some worry because they think that they might find it appealing and they can't handle that. Others just don't want anything upsetting their world-view; still others protect their world-view/beliefs by shunning anything that seems to them to be peculiar or that they have never heard of before.
Thank you for raising the question, Holly!

[Holly]

...I get irritated when I encounter people that think cross dressing is all about sex, or that all cross dressers are sexual "deviants", but I guess I can't fault them for thinking so...Yes, this gets to me as well. But I agree, it's hard to fault them. Overcoming stereotypes is a long process. And those of us in the TG community are not the only targets of stereotyping. Blacks fight being thought of as being inferior. Hispanics fight being thought of as lazy. Women fight to be treated equally. We fight for acceptance. The good news is that there has been improvement in all these areas including our own. So you, dear lady, keep getting out there and screaming at the top of your lungs. Educating the masses as to who we really are is the key to keep us moving forward. And modeling the behavior of a good, moral, contributing citizen is probably one of the most powerful tools we have in our arsenal. I look at it this way... every time I meet and make a new friend as a transgendered person, I hand them a weapon to use on our behalf as well. If and when the conversation within their own social circle turns toward transgendered persons and incorrect (stereotypical) comments are made about us are made, those persons whom we have befriended can say, "I know a trans-woman. She is articulate and intelligent. Never once has she said anything remotely sexually explicit and she always presents herself modestly. I can say with certainty that your stereotype comments are incorrect based on my own knowledge with my real life interaction with a transgendered person and not some internet exploitation site." I still contend the more often we are seen out having a meal, getting our car washed, buying groceries, taking a walk, whatever it is we have to do to survive on a day-to-day basis, the better off we will be in the long run. People will discover that we have the same basic needs as they encounter every day as well and that we pose no threat to their existence. Sure, we may wear different clothing than they may choose for themselves. So do Emo's and punks. So what? What's so wrong with that? I can dream. But more importantly, I can do my little part to make my dream come true. And the best part is that I have met some amazing people along the way.

[Staci K]

Hello Everyone,

Off-topic - Currently I've been working with a therapist to further my self-acceptance. Along with the sessions each week, I'm given homework between sessions from a workbook she had me buy entitled "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life". Some of what I've learned in working in it, has given me a better understanding to why CD'ing is commonly considered taboo.

On-topic - Humans think in relational thinking - meaning we relate one thought to another. To explain this I'll use some of the examples from my workbook:

Think of a ficticious creature, get a picture of it in your mind. Its name is 'Gub Gub', and it makes the sound 'Whoo'. Now you know 2 pathways of relational thinking. The human mind can automatically reverse the relations. Now when you hear the name, 'gub gub', you can envision what the creature looks like. In addition, when you hear the sound, 'whoo' you will be able to envision what the creature looks like. So now you're up to four pathways. To further explain the mind's capabilities, it can also automatically connect sound 'whoo' to the name 'Oh that's a gub gub' and visa-versa. So from just learning 2 pathways, you mind has made 6 pathways using relational thinking. (See the attached graphics for visuals)

Now putting this basic knowledge to the topic. Since humans think via relations, when a general person sees a crossdresser, they're likely to relate it to what they know:

Ru Paul is a homosexual drag queen - widely public with a show on TV - so they relate RuPaul to me - "Oh he's gay like that guy on TV that dresses as a woman".

For older generations, think 50's & 60's, a womans place was in the home. The man was the dominant gender - strong, protected his family, supported his family. Very few woman worked outside the home and those that did were likely secretaries and school teachers. Women were a step down on the social ladder than men. So for that generation when they see a cross-dresser, they relate it to a guy wanting to step down on the social ladder.

Lastly, is to understand how the mind deals with things they don't understand. When confronted with something it doesn't understand, the human mind automatically takes one of two stances: it will either shun what is not understood, or laugh at what is not understood. Again relational thinking plays into how they will react - how they relate what they are confronted with that they don't understand (a crossdresser) will dictate how they respond to it: mockery, disgust, etc. etc.

Sorry my post is kinda lengthy. In closing, in learning the psychology behind reactions received; I think it's pretty safe to assume crossdressers will never truly be accepted; however, in learning the how and why you are reacted to in the manner crossdressers are, is the true key to being able to hold your head high and let comments roll right off.

I'm learning first hand that knowledge will set you free.

The book information is below:

Get Out Of Your Mind And Into Your Life
By Stephen C Hayes, PH.D.
ISBN-13: 978-1-57224-425-2

:) Nicole

Additional note: Oh and lets not forget to add in the 80's sitcom 'Bussom Buddies' that made crossdressing a laughing matter as one more thing to use for relational thinking.

[ReineD]

Sure as hell someone posts explicit pictures in their avatar or their comments on my flickr or facebook accounts showing either their privates or them in the act of giving or getting a blow job, thus undermining the message I try so hard to put out there. THAT'S what I hate about it, and that's gotta be a huge part of why our SO's and others are so reluctant to come around.

You have a point and I'm sure some SOs are spooked with this aspect of the CDing. But, many GGs (myself included) know our partners aren't into it for sex with men or other CDs and we do trust them, even though we are all to familiar with the plethora of smut sites and admirers out there.

One of the other reasons that I don't think was mentioned in this thread is that we GGs are also afraid of societal judgment. We can put on a brave face and say that we don't care what others think, but deep down the thought of potentially being ostracized or of having friendship doors closed to us that would otherwise be open is a daunting reality that is difficult to face. We are just as much afraid of repercussions as are the CDers who choose to stay in the closet. I do go out regularly with my SO dressed. But, there are many people in my life that I am reluctant to tell. :sad:

Holly ... you bring up a beautiful point in your post #92. Your solution is really the only way to go, in order to bring about meaningful change. :hugs:

[Sandra]

One of the other reasons that I don't think was mentioned in this thread is that we GGs are also afraid of societal judgment. We can put on a brave face and say that we don't care what others think, but deep down the thought of potentially being ostracized or of having friendship doors closed to us that would otherwise be open is a daunting reality that is difficult to face.


I have never been afraid of societal judgement, I don't care how people judge me when they see me out with or know about Nigella. As for friends..well I look on it in this way, if they were really friends then they wouldn't close the doors....and yes it did happen, with one couple, I believe this was done because of the strong religious beliefs that they had.

[ReineD]

But Sandra ... you're a gem among the rest! :)

I guess I should have said "most" GGs are concerned about societal bias. Not "all". It is very much a concern for me and others, although not enough to walk away from my SO or impose all kinds of rules.

But, as you say, there are also people who don't give a hoot.

[Babeba]

Hmmph! I spent a good hour or so pawing through some old 'archaeology of gender' textbooks to give a bunch of examples of prehistoric gender roles, and of course the site timed out and even though I copy-pasted, I STILL managed to lose it. Oh well, it was a bit of an essay and probably a lot more info than most of you would've wanted. If you ARE interested, let me know and I'll dig stuff out for you to read/find reccomendations based on what you're interested in.

Going through more of the thread, though, and thinking of historical bases to reactions towards crossdressing - that was something that really spooked the pants off the Vikings and other Migration period Germanic peoples.

They had some very specific beliefs about the natural energies in the world, and how they could combine to make things happen; these energies were gendered. Men were seen as powerful, women as negotiators (basically, that's a bit of an oversimplification, but for an example). When men and women combine - well, what's more naturally a combination of these energies than creating a child? If those energies were combined unnaturally, however - woman with woman, or man with man - the fact the combination was unnaturally manipulated meant it could be manipulated by the person doing it. Female unnaturally mated with male (it brings a whole new meaning to the word 'wizard's staff', doesn't it?) could be used for a whole host of issues, ranging from settlement defense (a rather interestingly shaped piece of wood was found in the destruction layer of a particular town in modern-day Germany) to curing nymphomania (I think many women today with a satisfying little battery powered friend will agree with that one).

Man-on-man power was explosive (for instance, if two powerful men were talking or negotiating over a shared drink of alcohol they would have female cup bearers to break up the manliness for them) and tried to be avoided. Calling a man a homosexual, or saying he was womanly was as bad an offense as rape. There is some tantalizing evidence I've seen and would like to look into more (literature based as well as art based, on one of the Gotland stones) that men dressing as women could also 'unnaturally' combine with the masculine to create energies they could manipulate. This seems to have been kind of freaky to your average Germanic person back 1300 years ago.

I'm thinking that since something like 80% of today's English, and many of our customs, laws and cultural bases come from the Anglo-Saxons (some of those Germanic peoples) and other Germanic peoples with the same basic pantheon and belief system stretched across Europe, it's not inconceivable that some of the modern unease about cross dressers could come from some deeply rooted cultural conviction that men dressed as women are probably scary warlocks.




Could it be that we, through evolution, are predisposed to repel or reject gender-bending activities?
I saw a TV show in which 20 or so volunteers were asked to smell t-shirts worn by random people, and rate the smell along a scale from repulsive to attractive. What the participants didn't know is that the researchers included a shirt worn by a blood relative. It turns out that the shirts worn by blood relatives were consistently rated among the most repulsive. What's up with this? The hypothesis (theory? I'm not a scientist) is that nature, through evolution, uses our sense of smell and production of certain chemcals to reject blood relatives as potential sexual partners because...well, they stink. We don't realize it, but we are programmed to avoid incest. Nature knows that a blood relative isn't the best choice to mix genes with for carrying on a strong, healthy species. Our brains processed what our noses took in. Our brains also process what our eyes and ears take in. Could it be that when we see gender-bending behavior, our brains set up defenses?


Sometimes individual circumstances (stupidity, adherence to tradition, etc) trumps nature.
The smell test to avoid incest: it's subconscious; we don't know it's happening. It's really not about stink (maybe I oversimplified it); it's the brain saying "I don't like it. This person's not for me."

I read those studies, too! There was another one I saw that looked at certain alleles in the participants' genome and thinks it may be that parents with different immune systems are more likely to produce offspring who will last long enough to reproduce themselves as they'll pass on immunities to more diseases. You're likely to have a similar immune system to those people who are more closely related to you. Smell's kind of a funny sense, because it's so close to the centers where memory, emotion and the limbic system are in the brain and sometimes they stimulate each other. (Do scents sometimes trigger strong memories with you? What do you think of when you conjure up your favorite perfume? Is that emotional?)

[AlannahNorth]

I think that our choice of wearing female clothing is a statement (or a declaration) to many people, whether we want it to be or not. Not necessarily OUR choice of statement, but none the less we seem to get tagged with it. In short, it's not just the clothing or our appearance, it's the other's interpretation of our preference of clothing or appearance.

In an old story (of which I cannot recall the name), there was a conflict between two fictional societies. One society cracked their boiled eggs in the morning on the big side, the other on the little side, and the side they cracked it on was placed up in their egg cup. Sometimes that's all it takes.

That's my take on it.

[Babeba]

I think that our choice of wearing female clothing is a statement (or a declaration) to many people, whether we want it to be or not. Not necessarily OUR choice of statement, but none the less we seem to get tagged with it. In short, it's not just the clothing or our appearance, it's the other's interpretation of our preference of clothing or appearance.

In an old story (of which I cannot recall the name), there was a conflict between two fictional societies. One society cracked their boiled eggs in the morning on the big side, the other on the little side, and the side they cracked it on was placed up in their egg cup. Sometimes that's all it takes.

That's my take on it.
That sounds suspiciously like the theme of the Butter Battle Book by Dr. Seuss, which was a not-very-well-disguised criticism of the Cold War and the Arms Race. Maybe that's where Dr. Seuss got his idea of breakfast food conflict from?

[AlannahNorth]

Babeba, yes I think that's it. A sad statement on human nature.

[2SpeedTranny]

some deeply rooted cultural conviction that men dressed as women are probably scary warlocks.


I like that!

Wizards in our mythology are often portrayed with long flowing hair and long dresses, no?

Somewhat like Eddie Izzard's bit about the Druids being "early transvestites, didn't have the shaving thing down yet..."

[AlannahNorth]

I don't have a lot of information on this, but in some ancient societies (and not so ancient ones as well) my impression is that there was a type of individual who practiced things that were considered to be 'between' the norms, among them crossdressing and the practice of magic (between the worlds). Call them holy men, magicians, shamans or whatever, but it was a means of accessing energies to work with. Today however, society (okay, Hollywood) prefers to emphasis the magical side of this, leaving the less understood practices out of the stories.

Does anyone here have more information on this I wonder?

[Jenniferathome]

First, it is really only male to female cross dressers that alarms society. I think because it can not be labeled. "gay" doesn't cover it. It can't be understood by anyone other than a cross dresser.

[Jannette H]

Oh Girl,
I guess it has to do more of where you live or more than anything the age of the local populace. Where I live the people around our house is on the average 20+years older and they think very conservative Cross dressing doesn't fit in their world and they don't want to hear about it or see it. I did check with city hall and it is OK no problems. I was just to be a little careful that's all. In the community there are a lot of old families that have been here forever and older retired military whom didn't care for Don't Ask Don't Tell and the new law even less. Ignorance is what we are up against and some of the people are so stuck in there ways they will never change no matter what

[ReineD]

It can't be understood by anyone other than a cross dresser.

I like to think that those of us who love a CD can come close to maybe understanding a little? :)


Hmmph! I spent a good hour or so pawing through some old 'archaeology of gender' textbooks to give a bunch of examples of prehistoric gender roles, and of course the site timed out and even though I copy-pasted, I STILL managed to lose it. Oh well, it was a bit of an essay and probably a lot more info than most of you would've wanted. If you ARE interested, let me know and I'll dig stuff out for you to read/find reccomendations based on what you're interested in.

I'm sorry you lost it all! And yes, I'm very much interested in anything you have on the subject! But rather than veer Holly's thread on a different tack, you could start a thread about this in the Lounge. I'm sure other anthropology minded people can also contribute resources. :)

[Danni Bear]

First, it is really only male to female cross dressers that alarms society. I think because it can not be labeled. "gay" doesn't cover it. It can't be understood by anyone other than a cross dresser.

Jennifer,

I have to agree with ReineD that crossdressing can be understood by others than just crossdressers. There are many others spouses,children,parents,friends that do understand this. is it as personal to them as it is to us? For some that is a resounding yes for others no. This happens through knowledge and love,being able to open your heart and soul to others. It is the same with any part of our lives, being open and giving to others bring the same back. The old saying that you reap what you sow is very true.

danni