would u transition if,,,,,,,,,,,,,,?

[danielle.cd]

now there are some guys out there that , i hate to say , are just ugly. its sad but true, now heres where the funny thing comes in , you throw some makeup and girly hair on them and dang there outright hot,

so if u look better as a female than your male self and every one tells u this, why wouldnt u transition and become female and look hot as a women then ugly as a man,
me, i can look good both ways and i just need to be more comfertable in public,i know that im a crossdresser and i know that eventually i will go full time, but how do u feel?

do u look better as a female than u do a male? if so would u transition if every one agreed that u do look better?

[Maria in heels]

Would I transition? Hmmmmm. Well I can say that i look better than one of my sisters, and actully, the several of the employees at my job think that my halloween costume made me look HOTTER than the receptionist ! So I guess that the answer would be yes, so that i could wear my high heels all the time!

[Roberta Marie]

This question would lead me to think that you believe that we have a choice about our gender identity. If you can choose to identify as a woman because you think you look good as a woman, you must believe that it's a choice.

Personally, I believe that I had no choice in whether or not I am transgendered. I do not believe that a transexual can choose to be a transexual. I do not believe that we can choose the gender that we identify as. So, no, I would not transition just because I think I might look attractive as a woman.

[Stephanie Miller]

I believe in the saying "Beauty is only skin deep". Your real beauty is inside, down deep. And I think at this time in my life, I bring more to the table to those around me, as ugly ol' me, than a I could if I transitioned. So for the sake of others, I'll stay as I am on the outside and continue to dream on the inside.

And another thing, I have met people that for some reason or another (one was an unfortunate burn victim) who bring so much to the table I could only pray I would be able to amass in my whole life - half as much as they do daily.

[JohnH]

What would drive me to transition is the extremely narrow constraints placed on men in dress and behavior. It is OK for a woman to wear men's clothes but let a man wear women's clothes and he is considered a pervert. I feel like a two-spirit person and woe be that there would be a feminine side to a man.

Johanna

[Areyan]

i don't think i'd look fantastic as a physical male, some days i hate this in all of it's entirety and you MTFs quite conveniently forget about the other TG folks on the other side of the spectrum - that's right, the FTM and andrgynous identified. do we try to pass as men because we think we're "hotter" as males than we are as females? :facepalm:

perhaps i'd be keener to get a move on medical transition if i thought that would be a bonus, but sadly it isn't. most men aren't as attractive as women but that doesn't make all the difference to me either, it's just not a huge part of what makes me identify as i do. i'm not some daydreaming CD who can wear high heels and make up and get all sexually charged over it and have a male life to go back to - i'm a female-bodied person stuck in a female reality all the time, subjected to the ignorance that is part and parcel of being "just a pretty face", knowing that inside i am something else. this is not a choice and i do wish it would just go away sometimes.

if you are really male and just a CD and you make the mistake of medical transition, my position is where you will end up. think about it, it isn't some fantasy at all but a huge life change.

[Charleen]

"Looks" shouldn't have anything to do with it.

[Karren H]

I lpok damn good no mater what clothes I wear! Lol. I'd never transition. If I wasn't attached I might go full time... But that's it..

[OccasionalSkirt]

Nope. Even if I was extremely hot. Besides, what about those of us who have families and others that depend on us? I may be free to choose things for myself, but not without suffering consequences for others.

[sissystephanie]

I would never transition because I am a MAN! I may dress enfemme, but I was born a man and hopefully will die a man!! I have no desire at all to be a woman, just to dress like one!!

[Kathi Lake]

I do think I look better as a woman, but transition just isn't in the cards for me.

Kathi

[Miranda09]

Nope....wouldn't transition. I like being a guy as much as being a girl and dressing up is just a fun escape for me. Now if I could snap my fingers and transition back and and forth at will, now that's a different story!! :)

[danielle.cd]

i guess i should clarify for before more people beat me over the head, i read a lot of stuff from cds that struggle with wanting to change and dont know if they should, for some its not in the card for others there not sure, some are androginous and are good people on the inside, others are transgendered and are not out yet, so thats why i ask ,would this make up your mind

[Cynthia Anne]

I would in a heart beat! Because I have always felt like I was a female trapped! Ugly or not I see the key word as IF!

[April]

so if u look better as a female than your male self and every one tells u this, why wouldnt u transition and become female and look hot as a women then ugly as a man
Life is more than just looks Danielle.

[Rianna Humble]

if u look better as a female than your male self and every one tells u this, why wouldnt u transition and become female and look hot as a women then ugly as a man

I'm sorry, Danielle, gender is not about a beauty pageant.

I spent decades fighting the need to be the real me. When I finally came to the point where I would rather risk being an ugly woman than live one more day as a man, I began the preparation for transition. Now people tell me that I am not an ugly woman, but I certainly did not do it to become a beauty queen, I did it because I had two options left: either to give in to the evidence that I am a woman born into the wrong body or to end my life.

Others have mentioned the consequences for those around you. Are you prepared to throw everything away just because you think you would like a tilt at Miss Michigan? Your youthful looks will not last forever. Then what will you have left if you have been living a sham based solely on the desire to "look hot"?

[herwannabe]

Lets cut to the chase, I fit in the ugly category as a woman, as a man I guess I am average looking I just don't have femme features. Although if I would completely transition in a heart beat

Michelle

[kimdl93]

sticking with the premise of the OP, yeah, I would.

[AnnaCalliope]

I'm on the path, or at least on the road headed in the direction of the trail that leads to the path to transition. I'm not even remotely financially stable to begin see a gender therapist, but everyday I spend forced into the role of a male is becoming harder and harder to put up with. And that would be my decision regardless of how I looked.

[Genivieve]

I was thinking about this today.
I'm thinking more and more that if I had some shifts in my nose and jaw...maybe less of a muzzle I could pass. If that were the case I would not hesitate to live as a woman.
I still look too mannish though.

[Tonya Stolenski]

i'm married to a beutiful gg, but i would transition anyday...i know i'm not the BEST looking but i would transistion anyway

[Lorileah]

transitioning is for those who are transsexual, not a whim just because someone told you you looked better. There are many things that are inherent with gender that don't necessarily make SRS the right choice.

Instead of transitioning just because you look better with make up...why not work towards making it acceptable in society for men to wear make up and wigs? Less cost and no surgery needed

[AmberM]

It may be possible that at some point in my life I may consider transitioning but it should not be based on a arbitrary decision of something like looks. I would have to reflect on if I am truly transsexual or not.

[KateSpade83]

I look great both ways, but I wouldn't transition because I'm not into men and you can't get a great female voice from any sex change technique.

[MJ]

it's not a choice for some of us we have to do this

[Jazzlynn]

Now I look great as a guy and I haven't tried to fully go female but I doubt that I would transition unless I was getting paid a LOTT of money.I am very tempted to just go out and try to dress full time for a couple of months.

[erickka]

I look better (and younger) as a woman, but I am very happy to be able to have the best of both worlds, so transitioning is out of the question.

[Kate Simmons]

The driving force behind deciding to transition is not about looks. It's about how a person feels about themself.:)

[Angiemead12]

as long as I could still do all my male activities without getting ridiculed. Yes I would rather present as a female most of the time.

[Jay Cee]

...do u look better as a female than u do a male? if so would u transition if every one agreed that u do look better?

I look reasonably decent either way (or at least I think I do :) ). If I do transition, it won't be because I take a poll on everyone's opinion of my appearance. It'll be because it is something that I need to do, and because I'd know I would be better off as a female.

[Jennifer Marie P.]

Thats one of the reason that I transitioned everyone said I look better as a female and I wanted to be a female since I was 6 and if you feel you look better than your male side go for it.

[bromleybarbie]

Surely transitioning because of how you would look is far too flippant. It should either be life-affirming and life-saving or you are making a horrendous mistake.

[Rianna Humble]

I look great both ways, but I wouldn't transition because I'm not into men and you can't get a great female voice from any sex change technique.

I'm not into men, but I didn't let a little thing like that prevent me from choosing to live (and therefore transition)

[TGMarla]

I think I look lots better en femme than I do as a man, but that's just my opinion. I'm still not going to transition, despite that fact that I think I'd love to be a woman. There's a helluva lot more to such a decision than, "Gee, I look cute this way."

[deebra]

I agree with Miranda09, wouldn't it be really neat to be two nice looking people/gender, whatever the mood, you could be that. Sign me up.

[cordgrass]

I find it baffling the way that something so important can be discussed so lightly. Breast implants and facial surgery are one thing. Women make those sorts of body modifications all the time and it's not that big a deal, as long as one doesn't go overboard. I know as a heterosexual woman, the thought of having a partner with actual breasts is a HUGE turn off for me, but intellectually I can see the draw.

Taking hormones, on the other hand, is a major decision that will impact every part of your life. It changes your personality, your sex drive, possibly even your orientation. It can have long-term health effects.

Particularly for myself, after devoting much of my life to help women naturally increase the free testosterone in their bodies so they can have a more enjoyable sex life with their partners, I find it baffling that anyone would want to do that. Of course those who feel they are women born in men's bodies, yes, I can see why such drastic measures should be taken. But certainly it's not something that should be casually undertaken, just to improve one's looks!

On the other hand, I fully support changing society so that men are able to dress and act as women and be accepted as female without having to do such drastic things to their bodies. Particularly the libido!

[Genivieve]

I think this topic is a good what if? scenario...
For me it brings up the questions of how far invested am I? is it a choice at all or something innate? is it just fun?
and is the only reason I don't transition due to the limitations of my current life situation???

I just hope those who have made the transition don't get offended by any of it. It's just interesting to think about.

[diannecourtney]

You know if I were 5-7", 120-35lbs and 35 with $40,000 I'd do it in a minute. The lady of today has everything going for her. Such luscious shoes, duds and undies.

[BillieJoEllen]

If I had it to do all over again I would definitely transition. I wouldn't make a very good looking woman however but I could deal with that.

[Genivieve]

This is a horrible thought but we should make a guy vs girl mode post like the sticky on the main page.
This version would take votes on better looking as a man or woman.

Also, aren't of the surgeries not so safe in the long term...bone weakness ect?

[Debra Russell]

Nope....wouldn't transition. I like being a guy as much as being a girl and dressing up is just a fun escape for me. Now if I could snap my fingers and transition back and and forth at will, now that's a different story!! :)

This is where I stand also. I think I look better than all three of of sisters and pass ok but on the other side there is a transgendered girl, takes hormones, had the operation, boob's and all; he was a hulk in his male life, truck driven, hunt'n, knife throw'n "he" man. Knuckles down to his knees, a real All'y Oop. Now I'am not dissing him for what he did, I know it's best for his own inner self but for a while he was the butt of all jokes in this small town, although people generally began to accept him as he is very open. I commend him on his courage. Question being -- if you look good when you dress, would you transition? How about - why would you if there was no way without looking like godzilla in a wig?

[joandher]

Why should i change sex ,when i have the best of both worlds,to chose from, as and when i like ??

Hugs J-JAY

[Stephanie Anne]

What a shallow thing to say. Transitioning is not about appearance or clothes or being able to indulge femininity.

It is about correcting a gender difference between yourself and what you were assigned at or shortly after birth. Both assigned at birth women and men go through this. Cis Women and men both do cosmetic surgery to alter appearance. Does this mean they are transgendered? No. Many of us have facial and body surgery to accept something we cannot get past. Beauty is not a marker for transition.

I agree with cordgrass how transition fundamentally alters your core. I am not the same person I was even a year ago.

You don't transition for appearance. Not every crossdresser is a TS hiding in the closet and not ever TS crossdressed.

[Rianna Humble]

why would you if there was no way without looking like godzilla in a wig?

It's called acute Gender Dysphoria. One of the thing sthat the psychiatrist quotes which convinced her that I need help with my gender dysphoria was my statement "I'd rather die an ugly woman than live another day as a man". This was not said for effect, it was a statement of fact. For me the choice was between transition and suicide.

[Genivieve]

What a shallow thing to say. Transitioning is not about appearance or clothes or being able to indulge femininity.

It is about correcting a gender difference between yourself and what you were assigned at or shortly after birth. Both assigned at birth women and men go through this. Cis Women and men both do cosmetic surgery to alter appearance. Does this mean they are transgendered? No. Many of us have facial and body surgery to accept something we cannot get past. Beauty is not a marker for transition.

I agree with cordgrass how transition fundamentally alters your core. I am not the same person I was even a year ago.

You don't transition for appearance. Not every crossdresser is a TS hiding in the closet and not ever TS crossdressed.


Ohh, I hope that wasn't in response to me. I really do understand that there is a fundamental difference. I was just musing on the possibilities of someone to enhance their looks, and was wondering if it was worth the cost.

For a TS it is not an option. I see that.

=)

[Jennifer in CO]

I have to ask but in the context of the OP, are you saying transition as in SRS or just go full time CD? I would have to say from my perspective when I transitioned I was more or less the equivalent of a non-op TS as a full time CD. I still had/have the "equipment" but the rest of the mind and body were functioning as female including hormone induced breasts so I looked the part as well. Being pretty or looking better as a girl than a boy had nothing to do with it. It was at first something I thought would be fun and exciting. But when it came down to "had to" because of what I had developed into it became challenging. I could be a girl at home and a guy at work...best of both worlds. But with the situation of how I was outed at work and subsequent "transition" becoming a girl was not an option...it was just simpler. My wife says I was and currently am a handsome guy. I have to say she is lying about the before stuff as the best I was ever referred as back then was "gangly" or "string bean". At 6' and 135# what else are you going to be? When I transitioned she said I was pretty. Never a knockout...course maybe your wife isn't going to tell you that but I never heard it from anyone else either. What was scary, was when our oldest daughter got to that age (21-22+) my wife made the comment more than once that she looked just like me. She even wore some of the clothes she found in an old box (tops, t shirts, etc) thinking they were my wifes but they were mine and they fit her perfectly. THAT was scary...like looking in a time-warp mirror sometimes.

anyway...I'm rambling...

Jenn

[suchacutie]

Why would I want to lose the best of both worlds? I very much enjoy both of my genders and I see no reason that I can't look equally good in either gender!

Just call me transgendered :)

tina

[Andria]

If I wasn't attracted to women, I think I would transition. But considering I do love sex with the GG type using my.. uhm.. member that I was born with, then transitioning probably wouldn't be a good idea for me.

[DebsUK]

I agree with a ot of replies, it's not about looks. I'd not transition in my current circumstances with a wife I love and a good job. Saying that, I work in the NHS and I think this might be a good organisation in which to transition and I think they'd offer a lot of support, but it woul still be far from easy. On the other hand I'd be very happy living as a woman, and this does kind of fit my self-view as being just me, neither male nor female. I usually fall in the middle of those online gender tests, however much credence you put into them. I would make a good woman and have no problem blending into society as a whole as female due to my size. As far as looks are concerned, I'm an ugly man and I do think I look like a woman when I'm en femme, but a very plain one

[GirlieAmanda]

This is something I think about every time I look in the mirror in the morning. It just would seem more natural if I had breasts and a flat crotch area. It seems my inside doesn't match my outside. I do everything I can to feminize my body. I look pretty good as a girl. Still see mannish things I don't like. I have passed in public but I am never sure 100%. As a guy, I have been described as cute. (meaning good looking, boring and pleasant, not hot apparently) I am much more happy, lively, fun and sexy as a girl. Kind of like what I really want to be always. I know I have a lot of TS thoughts. The only things that hold me back are family, job, and risky surgery. If those factors were reduced or eliminated somehow, I would do it. I know in my heart its what I am.

[Genivieve]

This is something I think about every time I look in the mirror in the morning. It just would seem more natural if I had breasts and a flat crotch area. It seems my inside doesn't match my outside. I do everything I can to feminize my body. I look pretty good as a girl. Still see mannish things I don't like. I have passed in public but I am never sure 100%. As a guy, I have been described as cute. (meaning good looking, boring and pleasant, not hot apparently) I am much more happy, lively, fun and sexy as a girl. Kind of like what I really want to be always. I know I have a lot of TS thoughts. The only things that hold me back are family, job, and risky surgery. If those factors were reduced or eliminated somehow, I would do it. I know in my heart its what I am.


I concur!

[Luciana Vitale]

I do think I look better as a woman, but transition just isn't in the cards for me.

Kathi

As Kathy said, same for me,I think look and feel a lot better as a woman, but do not think i will transition, wish but not

[Cheryl T]

I do feel I look better as a woman. As far as transitioning...mixed emotions at this time.

[NathalieX66]

I think being a woman is highly overrated.

yet...I think being a guy is highly overrated too......can I be both??

[danielle.cd]

This is something I think about every time I look in the mirror in the morning. It just would seem more natural if I had breasts and a flat crotch area. It seems my inside doesn't match my outside. I do everything I can to feminize my body. I look pretty good as a girl. Still see mannish things I don't like. I have passed in public but I am never sure 100%. As a guy, I have been described as cute. (meaning good looking, boring and pleasant, not hot apparently) I am much more happy, lively, fun and sexy as a girl. Kind of like what I really want to be always. I know I have a lot of TS thoughts. The only things that hold me back are family, job, and risky surgery. If those factors were reduced or eliminated somehow, I would do it. I know in my heart its what I am.

i feel the same way

[Annie D]

Transitioning is a state of mind, not necessarily what you are wearing. Like you stated, most of us are not very good looking and I am sorry to say that the older we all become, the more matronly we look. Have you ever noticed how men and women in their 60's start to look more and more alike? But I digress; most of us have already transitioned because of the way we think and act. Whether we are in drab or drag we have started to appreciate what it is to be a more kind, gentle and caring person; at least I have. I receive many strange glances when I am in male mode and respond the way my mother might have done. I don't pass but am unafraid to be seen in a dress because my mind is way ahead of my physical body and I don't mind presenting as a female, no matter what I am wearing.

[renee k]

The driving force behind deciding to transition is not about looks. It's about how a person feels about themself.:)

Spot on Denise! I feel better about myself as a female. That's why I chosen the road to transition!

Renee

[Nikki A.]

I may look a little better, but that should not be the only reason to transition. It's gotta be what you need to do, just not for vanity's sake. Hell if you want to be that shallow, just wear make up as a male.

[MargaretJ]

I look so much better as a woman and I really enjoy the look, but I'm only interested in the crossdressing, so I wouldn't take the transition option.

[Sapphire]

How we think we look and how others perceive us are two entirely different things. Besides, many TGs are clearly at ease with remaining permanently in that twilight zone that encompasses both genders. It may not be easy but at times it certainly seems worth the effort.

[suchacutie]

This thread had shifted a bit and reading all the responses has put my mind in a different place. As I said above, I like both my genders, but it's much more than that.

When I leave my feminine self behind and transition to masculine, my current body makes it easy for me to do that, and it really feels like transitioning to a masculine self. When I leave my masculine self to transition to Tina, it's harder in that my body fights me in certain respects. I think the point of all this is when I transition one way or the other, I really do, at that moment, want to transition completely! I have no desire only partially to become Tina! I want to become Tina as if I will stay in that mode forever! The same is true as I become masculine again.

There are truly two of me, and it would be heaven, for example, to live a week in one gender and a week in another, maybe even in two different cities!

How's that for a split personality :)

[Sophie_C]

Well, it would be helpful, but prejudice is pretty bad. Honestly, I know I can make myself look good if I transitioned, but I know that in the inbetween time I would look awful and the consequence (family friends would be pretty bad). Still, it may happen one day. I really can't shake it...

[Annaliese2010]

do u look better as a female than u do a male? yes tht seems to be wht evryones "telling me".

if so would u transition if every one agreed that u do look better? no! i luv my love-stick too much. sides...then i'd have to buy the strapon.

[CatAttack]

Wow, looking good would be like the most superficial reason for transitioning.. I mean it definitely helps in the whole being accepted aspect, but it shouldn't be the reason to transition. Also, I like women and am transitioning, so HA q:

[2SpeedTranny]

I have heard this before -- "Oh, you look so much nicer as a chick."

Duh.

I just spent 3 hours showering, epilating, shaving, putting on makeup, moisturising, etc. Of course I look better than I would have if I had simply spritzed a little Axe and thrown on a clean t-shirt.

Any idiot could figure this out. It's about time spent on appearance, and frankly, anyone's appearance can be improved with a little makeup. Even Glenn Beck.

I really don't see how this makes the logical leap to messing with hormones and cutting my junk off.

Yes, I'm prettier in drag. I'm cool with that. It's understandable. I don't spend a lot of time trying to be a Dapper Dan. The fanciest thing on the boy side of my closet is a Hawaiian shirt. That doesn't mean I don't want to be a man. I'm just a man who would rather look like a girl than a lawyer for a night on the town.

[Katie Louise]

Not only do I look better as a woman, but I feel more confident. I'm being treated for depression/anxiety/IED and I think that I may need to mention this to my shrink. I do believe that I may no longer be a crossdresser, but TS

[Julie-Ann Fletcher]

never had the chance to be fully made up,but going on what i look like with a wig and a bit of lippy then yea i would transition,i make a better looking girl than a man..............................................s ad but true :D:D

[5150 Girl]

I would transiton no matter what I looked like

[Rianna Humble]

I would transiton no matter what I looked like

:iagree: in fact I am transitioning despite what I look like

[Shelly Preston]

I look ok in both male and female mode

Looks is the last thing to based a decision like transition on

Could I live 24/7 as a female I would like to think I could but I dont know

Transiton will only happen if it is right for me

Transition has as been said by many hear is not normally something they choose

They are correcting the body to match who they are

[Pythos]

There would have to be some major things to impel me to go through SRS. Most importantly would be how my SO felt. If she really wanted it, and I was sick of "being male" then who knows. I highly doubt it though.

Living 24\7? I have given some thought to this. But I don't know.

Wearing what I like, and looking how I like 24/7? In a heart beat. :P

[GingerLeigh]

Would I transition? Uhhh.... I don't really look good or convincing as a woman so no. I suppose if I had the proper training in applying makeup I'd look significantly better, but still not attractive. I would not transition, it would take way too long to put on my face to be remotely convincing.

Nobody says I'm an ugly man, at least not to my face.

Ginger

[Melissa Rose]

The driving force behind deciding to transition is not about looks. It's about how a person feels about themself.:)

Denise said it perfectly.

If looking better as a woman is one of the factors behind your decision to transition, you are transitioning for the wrong reasons. If you would look no better or worse as a woman, and that stops you from transitioning, you are not transitioning for the wrong reason. It is more about making the inner and outer parts of you congruent, and not how great you look as defined by standard measures of beauty.

[diannecourtney]

As I have said before,no question if I were 5"7' 130 lbs. 30years younger and $40,000 richer.

[Nick2Nikki]

I do think that I would look better as a female than a male (though I'm damn good looking as either, thank-you-very-much), though there are too many other things to consider other than "which gender would I look better as." There are consequences such as social status, job security, friends and family, and perhaps most importantly, money. If there were no consequences, such as maybe if I was put into the witness protection program and given the government agree to pay for surgery right away, then yes. Otherwise, probably not. I would rather have been born in a woman's body, but I'm not sure that I feel that strongly enough to transition now that I'm already in a man's body. I like me, and though I know that I would like me even in a man's body, I don't think that transitioning would be worth it to me. I have a logical brain, one that prefers practical solutions over emotional ones (or more accurately, detests emotional ones), which amongst other things about how I think makes me think I have a male brain. Then again, that evaluation is based largely on stereotypes, and I don't think I would mind being a (mostly?) male brain "trapped" in a female body.

So, while I think that I would prefer being in a female body, the cons outweigh the pros for me. For now. Maybe someday I'll find out that I'm actually transexual, but until then, it makes more sense for me to stick with my male body.

[J-Chattanooga]

For me the answer is NEVER... For me it's not about being a woman, it's just the clothes. A world in which a man (or woman) could wear anything they wanted without fear of ridicule would be my dream.

J

[victoriamwilliams1]

I look better as a woman and I am not able to transition so I will just be me:)

[stefanie]

i think it is less about the passing and looks and more about how one feels about their gender. Having great looks on either side of the gender equation may not make you happy. More about how you carry yourself, how you respect others, etc.

For many of us currently part time or with the possible aspiration of going full time, I think we often play up the pretty and glamour side without realizing the full consequences of a being a full time women (irregardless of what we might leave behind in our current male role).

While dressing may be fun and we all have certain levels of magnitude and interest for whatever reasons, I suspect it is wrong to think or imply that all we see in or as women is how to look pretty.... which i know is not what anyone is saying but it could certainly has hints of this.

just my 2 cents and now accounting for inflation.... maybe 1.2 cents

[Samantha43]

I think I look better as a woman. My wife says I look better as a woman.

I don't want to be a woman, so I'll just have to be an ugly guy who dresses as a woman.... :D

[Kelly Greene]

I have to agree with the others that have said that transitioning is more about who you are and not how you look.

I don't think I will ever fully transition because I feel that my best path is to combine my female and male sides and integrate them into a whole person. there has to be some way to be both male and female at the same time, and by the grace of god I hope to find it.