Would like some opinions or discussion

[DeeInGeorgia]

I posted the following on Pam's House Blend, hoping somone could answer my questions or at least get some discussion going. My best guess is I am a gender bender in transition at work. Being a bender and not TS, my transition is different from the common TS transition as discribed by various TS support organizations or people like Dr. Jullian Weiss. I have been told by a company HR VP that I cannot transition further unless I am ready to do a TS transition. A TS friend that works at another part of the company is in agreement with the VP. I have been in transition for 3 years, and am wondering what is the reason I cannot transition further, and if I convince the company to allow me to transition further, would it cause problems for TS employees in the future.

Let me first appologize for the MTF orientation of the article. Since it was about me, MTF, I worry most about causing problems for MTF TS, but the same concern applies for the FTM TS.

So here is the diary I posted on PHB. It is quite long. Please comment.

Can the gender benders and the transsexuals survive together?

Mon Jan 31, 2011 at 23:43:58 PM EST
In the corporate world that is. Can the crossdressers, the androgynenes, the gender queer, and all the rest of the transgender spectrum coexist with transsexuals in a corporation or a community? I ask this because of possible differences in the needs of the various parts of the T community.
A post-op woman needs to use the restroom of her sex. Yet many straight people get upset when a post-op woman needs to use the womens restroom. I have acquaintences that have been years post-op that still are required to use single person bathrooms due to complaints from co-workers.

How is a pre-op transsexual woman supposed to get through her Real Life Experience if she is not allowed by company policy or employee complaints to use the restroom of her everyday gender presentation? There is a real educational activity required to just let the pre-op transsexual live her life. Can crossdressers and other gender variant people screw up the chances of transsexuals to have the bathroom experience they need? I worry that my transition can adversely affect the needs of the TS.

The best I can tell, I am a gender bender, but do not know for sure. All I know is that I have spent over 3 years as my breasts became larger and my hair longer, dressing as a guy. I have been asked several times in the past year, if or when I am planning on "having the surgery" and I reply that I am not having "the surgery". I present at work as a man with boobs. I have been told by the VP of HR that I cannot continue my transition until I am ready to commit to living full time as the opposite sex, ie. pre-op transsexual. A post-op woman acquaintance that works with a different business unit of the company agrees with the position of my HR VP.

But I am not transitioning from male to female, I am transitioning from male to a third gender, somewhere in between male and female. I am a half male - half female identity, and heavily female gender expression. I am transitioning for me, but my transition has also been for the transgender community. Hundreds of people at my company see me, and can understand that a transgender person is not some faceless object, but is instead a person that they interact with on a daily basis. If they can become familiar with and comfortable with a person like me, then the environment for a transitioning TS should be more accepting.

But now comes the major question. If I continue my transition, even though informed it is not in my best interest, I wonder what are the reasons for not allowing my transition? Is it because they expect I would want to use the womens restrooms? Would the uproar from women complaining about a man in the womens restroom poison the atmosphere for any TS women in the future?

But what if I instead just continue to use the mens restroom? As part of my passive activism, one thing I was hoping for was that as my appearance became more feminine as I transitioned, at some point, men would start complaining about me using the mens restroom. But does my use of the mens restroom as I continue my transition poison the "Need" for a TS to use the womens restroom, giving employees a saber in the bathroom wars - "If he can use the mens restroom, then why can't she?"

So how do I continue my transition into the person I am, no longer hiding a part of myself at work? Does my gender expression throw a monkey wrench into the TS community work to make corporate America more accepting to the TS?

Should I give up on furthering my transition, so that TSes can have a better chance at their own transition? Must I give up on a fully inclusive "gender expression" and just live with a gender expression that is limited to only those living a "full time gender presentation"?

So, can a gender bender with his or her own unique gender expression coexist at a company whose definition of gender expression is limited to only those that are transsexuals? Can transsexuals accept a gender bender not living a binary gender expression at their place of employment? Any opinions?

Deanna

[Faith_G]

I think you already know this, but being outside the gender binary puts you in a place that very few people are willing to make the effort to comprehend.

What pronouns do you prefer? Fight your bathroom battle based on those. If you value your job, don't do anything simply for the sake of making people uncomfortable.

Don't worry about having a negative effect on someone else's transition. You've got enough to worry about already.

[gretchen2]

I say do what you want and what feels right to you. Everyone else can go pound salt or sand which ever one it is.

[Eryn]

Why is a "company HR VP" dictating how or when you transition? Seems that that is a decision for you and possibly your medical/counseling professionals. The HR person might tell you what facility they would like you to use but that is where their authority should end.

[Katesback]

Umm......... thinking here for a min. I have met some of these gender F__K people. I admire their courage and firmly believe that it is their right to do whatever they want (even getting a tattoo of a penis on their face). With that said I think anyone that does such things is asking for pain and suffering because as said most people including me expect a the typical man or woman and if you walk around with horns on your head or god knows what I and most people write you off as a wierd mother F---er.

[CharleneT]

There is a lot to ponder in your post, but you come back to the issue of bathroom use several times. I think that you should use the bathroom that is appropriate to the gender that you present in. Or, if they provide neutral facilities, use those. If you are presenting as a man, then it is the men's you should use. If you were coming in on different days as different genders, then you should expect trouble, because I think it reasonable that they expect you to present one way or another. There are many men who have some breast development, so I do not think that that alone is a reason to go to the women's.

[Stephanie Anne]

Let me stop this right here and say workplace environments are only going to allow transition. I have to agree with it. If you are not going to show the effort necessary to commit to something as life altering as transition than why should any work commit to the effort of allowing you to present as the opposite gender.

I fully support the effort gender queer go through but the thing is you can associate with one gender in a professional setting. You are not needing to transition to normalize your internal struggle. As such you have no need to have work conform to you. Let work place transition be for those who need it. Us transexuals who are in the process of correcting a gender incongruity in our lives.

I'm sorry but my tolerance for all facets of transgender society to share the same areas of rights without the same diagnosis is ridiculous. There is a huge difference between someone who is gender fluid and someone who is crossing from one sex to another. You can conform to external standards much easier than we can. You may not like being male but it's not something you can't do. You can flux on your own time and be a set gender on company time. For example, I have committed to hormone replacement, changed my name and gender marker and am saving to have srs as soon as is possible. I no longer present in any part of my life as the gender I was born into. As such I have shown my intention for transition and have no regret or desire to live in the old gender of my birth. It is for this very reason that I fail to see why anyone not in a similar level of dedication and struggle should be granted the same benefits.

This being said, something tells me you have more fear of transition than actually being gender queer. I think what you should be asking yourself is why are you stopping where you are at?

[Pythos]

I think ANYONE whether transitioning or not, should be able to present how they want, as long as it is within decency.

For those here that are transitioning putting down those...like me, that like to present in an exotic fem manner, and would love to do so even at the workplace, and you thinking we should be limited because we are not as committed as you. DAMMIT, stop that!!!

We may not be committed as you in some aspects, but we are still committed. We do not have the reason "I am in transition" to fall back on when someone berates us for wearing what we do. I also for one would not feign transition as a reason I wear the stuff I do.

It still takes courage to remain your birth gender and step outside those bounds placed by society when it comes to presentation. This goes for both "MtoF",AND "FtoM" Androgens meet more nonsensical limitations by the ignorant or bigoted.

I would never expect to get such from people that are in the same sub as myself. (I like submarines more than boats, so sue me :) ). I would stand for TS s rights, and would damn well hope TS s would stand for my rights.

[DeeInGeorgia]

Thank you all so much for this discussion. One cannot learn if there are no opposing viewpoints. I cannot learn without this discussion. I am hoping that someone who works in HR will also step into this discussion.

The implication I received from a tech lead at work once said that if a man came to work dressed as a woman, if any women at work were offended, the man could be disciplined and even fired for it with the context being sexual harrassment of the woman. When I asked the VP HR, she repeated the "need to (TS) transition for a man to come to work dressed as a woman.

Me being the engineer type wanting to understand the basis of the restriction, am asking the question "Why".

So why can a woman dressed in mens clothes be allowed at work, but a man dressed in woman's clothes be a firing offense. What if that man continued to use the men's restroom? Would dressing in women's clothes still be a firing offense? If yes, is it because it causes disruption or discomfort for the rest of the men using the men's bathroom?

In company statements for inclusion, the word "accommodation" as in "with or without reasonable accommodation" is used as in handling those with disabilities or transsexuals. So does a man wearing women's clothes, using the men's restroom go beyond "reasonable accommodation"? Or is it simply that the context of a man wearing women's clothes that is not TS is beyond reasonable accommodation.

If so, then the words "gender expression" in an Equal Opportunity Statement and Policy pretty much means you can't be fired for being too feminine if male, as long as your gender presentation remains male, and too masculine if you are female, as long as your gender presentation remains mostly female.

From a FtM perspective, if a Transman came to work with a beard and used the women's restroom, while still identifying as a female, the situation could be the same as the limitations of a male dressed in women's clothes, a difference, but reality as how HR would interpret it.

And does a man dressed in women's clothing, using the men's room screw it up for those that are TS transitioning? My guess is yes.

Again, thank you for all your viewpoints and discussion.

Deanna

[morgan51]

I think we are a long way from universal acceptance. Employers do have a responsibility to maintain somewhat of a peaceful nondisruptive enviorment at work for it to be productive if you don't like thier policies choose a different employer, you are fighting a battle you can't win. I can see your side of this as well but agree with Stephanie Ann.

[DeeInGeorgia]

So it isn't so much about bathroom politics as it is just that society finds a man with a feminine gender presentation ( but still identifying as a male) as inherently offensive.

[Steph.TS]

I think the limitation isn't about the bathroom use at all, I think it's about mental health, and making sure that you are hapy with where you are going, if you went to see a psychologist/psychiatrist and explored this very thing, you might find that going too far in the fem dept might be a mistake (the grass is always greener on the other side) it sounds like you've already come a long ways as you said you are a man with boobs, that is impressive. the TS community have guidelines for transitioning to ease people and to avoid people realizing 10 years later how they made a mistake that can't be undone...

another reason (though less likely as they seem fairly liberal hiring TS they appear accepting)the company might be afraid that they could lose business, most people like the binary gender system, the company could be trying to prevent issues external, and internal to the company from having some one that s outside of the 2 genders, but again it sounds like you are pretty middle of the road (though I could be wrong)

[Stephenie S]

Doesn't your company have a single stall rest room? I have never worked at a business that didn't.

That said, I must say I don't understand what it is you want to do. Do you really want to maintain your male identity and wear female styled clothes to work? Why? Just to provoke others? If you can easily switch back and forth, why don't you present at work as male and save your crossdressing for other times? Do you like this job? If so, why jeopardize it?

Do you want to maintain a sort of androgynous appearance at work so that others can't identify your gender? Why? Most people in this world want a fairly solid idea of the gender of those we meet, especially in the work place. Gender bending in social situations might be more acceptable to most others than gender bending in the work place. Is this fair? No. But public belongs to all of us. The work place belongs to an entity (your boss, or a corporation) who can and does maintain some control over it.

Do you want to be fluid? One gender one day and one gender the next? Again, that's great in a social situation, but I would not put my job at risk for the privilege. It's not worth it.

If you annoy administration long enough, they will find a way to let you go, believe me.

S

[Traci Elizabeth]

Let us not forget that many states are "right-to-work" states where employers have the right to fire you "at will" and "without cause."

Although I am a transitioned woman, I would in all probability fire you for several reasons. Your presentation would not meet our corporate dress code, your presentation is disruptive to the working environment and distracts from productivity. You presentation would not fit our corporate image to our customers and vendors. If your presentation is offensive to employees, and interferes with their private and personal rights in or out of the restrooms, that is in and of itself cause for termination.

So if your company is being tolerant with you even on a limited bases, you need to count your blessings especially in this state of the economy. Remember corporations and their employees don't need your type of frustration or disruption of a happy working environment.

Bottom line, if you worked for me, you wouldn't have lasted this long with your job regardless of your position or perceived importance.

[Rianna Humble]

I don't seek to condemn or encourage someone who wishes to present differently to their birth gender for aesthetic or other personal reasons, but I do not think that it is helpful for someone to carry that into the workplace unless this has been previously discussed and agreed with the employer.

I don't think it is even a case of "society" finding someone who chooses to blur the gender lines as inherently offensive, but there have to be norms of behaviour in any workplace. It is only in the relatively recent past that these norms have been relaxed to allow those of us who need to transition to be accommodated. Most employers have standards of dress both for men and for women and people can be disciplined or even fired for transgressing those standards without good reason. Unfortunately for you in this context the employer decides which reasons are good.

I'm pretty sure that no employer would want to take the risk of disruption by allowing a man in a dress to use the male toilets, nor the risk of allegations of sexual harassment if they allowed the man to use the women's restrooms. Employers have a duty of care to all their employees and this would not be fulfilled if they let you get beat up for going into the men's room wearing a dress.

Whilst in an ideal world, Pythos would be right that any gender presentation however inconsistent would be tolerated, the world is far from ideal and we have to accept that employers are well within their rights to insist that those with no interest in transition as defined by the law should maintain a constant gender presentation largely consistent with their anatomical gender.

I don't think it is helpful to suggest that women can go to work dressed as men since that is usually inaccurate. Generally speaking they are wearing women's clothes styled to resemble men's clothing. If this is contrary to the company dress code then they would not be allowed to dress in such a way.

[Stephanie Anne]

I think ANYONE whether transitioning or not, should be able to present how they want, as long as it is within decency.

For those here that are transitioning putting down those...like me, that like to present in an exotic fem manner, and would love to do so even at the workplace, and you thinking we should be limited because we are not as committed as you. DAMMIT, stop that!!!

We may not be committed as you in some aspects, but we are still committed. We do not have the reason "I am in transition" to fall back on when someone berates us for wearing what we do. I also for one would not feign transition as a reason I wear the stuff I do.

It still takes courage to remain your birth gender and step outside those bounds placed by society when it comes to presentation. This goes for both "MtoF",AND "FtoM" Androgens meet more nonsensical limitations by the ignorant or bigoted.

I would never expect to get such from people that are in the same sub as myself. (I like submarines more than boats, so sue me :) ). I would stand for TS s rights, and would damn well hope TS s would stand for my rights.

I have read many of your posts here. While I admire your ability to stand for one's right to dress how they feel, I don't see indications you are doing so for gender identity reasons.

It has been made quite clear in the replies that there is a distinct difference between transition and appearance change and dress code.

Don't confuse wanting to be accepted in work, private, and public as the woman or man you are and wanting to work in your case as a man but dress counter to that.

It would require a certain job with certain circumstances to do this. in those circumstances you would be able to dress how you want. But in your case I see no difference between what yo are referring to and say a fury or a dominatrix. Don't get me wrong, I am not bundling you into either of those categories. What I am saying is that both groups rely on appearance to sell an image. In a certain context, both would be appropriate to dress in their chosen appearance. But in say a customer service or sales job, a fox costume or chains and leathers would be inappropriate. They can either dress in a suit and tie or skirt and be who they are.

I am a woman and a trans woman at that. Dressing in clothing designated for women is appropriate for who I am. Just like any cis woman would be seen sa appropriate in women's clothing and any cis man would be appropriate in men's clothing.

This is he fundamental difference and why I do not feel it necessary to give someone who is happy in the gender they were assigned to at birth the right to dress in a fashion counter to that gender or a professional setting. you wouldn't dress as a goth lolita working at Olive Garden the same way that would would not dress as a business woman working at say a tattoo parlor.


Now again, if you are unable to transition then that is an other matter. Until you actually make the effort to change the manic behavior of denial and start the process, whether full time before hormones at a therapist's suggestion, or on hrt at a doctor's guidance, you should not have the same benefits as those designed for people who are requiring equality to live their lives.

[Pythos]

You're right. I do not wish to transition.

Sorry to bring up the ugly past again, but there was a time, not all that long ago that there were no pants for women. They wore what were mens clothing. Many of the shirt styles women wear these days are a direct decendent of mens styles. And so on and so forth.

You must remember. Women for the most part have a WIDE range of styles to choose from, where for the most part men are supremely limited. Your statements about appropriateness of the work place has some merrit, but once again you are imposing limits.

I look at it this way. IF at my work place a woman can get away with indeed a goth appearance (EG, Abby Schuito from NCIS), then a male should be able to do likewise. If a woman can wear a skirt, then a man should be able to as well. Now, me showing up in my Mana cosplay, or looking like a member of Kizz while working in an insurance office? Now that would be a different story.

Having limitations imposed on people based on sex is one of the matters at the very heart of our struggles.

I look at it this way. When you place restrictions on people, you help place more restrictions on others. There are of course decency limits. If I could wear skirts to work on a daily bases there are some I will not wear sheer hosiery with due to their shortness, but then again a GG would have the consideration as well.



you are and wanting to work in your case as a man but dress counter to that.

and where is the harm in that? Sensibilities that should have gotten rocked decades ago? Why support them?

[Aprilrain]

I guess I'm sorta conservative. If it were my company I would be concerned with the bottom line, employee comfort and happiness would only be acomidated to the extent nessary to increase the bottom line. Some companies are going to unisex bathrooms, not mine, what woman wants a disgusting man pissing on the toilet seat.
I think the confusion here arises out of the common misconception that your life belongs to you all the time. Unfortunately we are all slaves. You trade your time for money. while you are at work you have given up your right to say how you will spend your time this includes how you will dress. Now obviously some places can afford to be more liberal in their policies and indeed actually profit from this type of behavior. Tatoo parlor, caboret ect.but most companies must conform to societal norms to be competitive.
So it's really not about you or transitioning TSes or the bitchy cisgenderd women who freak out because there's a man in their bathroom. (frankly I don't think men would care if you dressed like a woman in their bathroom if it's an office environment, now a machine shop or factory floor your on your own ?!?!?.)
Really it all about the bottom line which could be affected if the company is perceived as intolerant by society or a greedy union so they tolerate TSes to a point. But like others have said if you want to be a man I think it would be appropriate to conform to the dress code for men and use the mens room.