pink fog where are you??

[girlalex]

its kind of wired i feel like my pink fog is disappearing after being around for a whole year. i don't feel really feminine anymore what the heck. did anyone else ever experience anything like that. i mean i know the pink fog comes and goes. but it been with me for so long that i thought it never will be back. i guess its because my school starts pretty soon and I'm really exited to go back and meet new people. maybe thats why. my mind is probably else where now. but i still get really jealous when i see GGs with nice looking breasts.

[Deborah_UK]

I've seen this "pink fog" being discussed on the CD part of the forum, not sure it really applies to TS's. As someone now into the second year of RLE I'm living my life as I always should have. So no - "pink fog" here.

[Stephanie Anne]

You now what? I'm going to jump down your throat just a little bit. Not because of who you are but because you seem to not understand the commitment we transexuals give.

There is no pink fog with us as we sacrifice the ability to hide behind a male persona when things get tough. I face discrimination and snide remarks every single day of my life because of the negative stigma partially perpetuated by the pink fog excuses of crossdressers. I don't have the luxury of waking up and saying "golly gee I think I will be Frank today so I don't have to be ridiculed at the office".

I sacrificed that safety blanket when I said to myself that one more day of living a half life and a lie would kill me. So if you don't mind, give some respect to my fellow brothers and sisters who have made the same sacrifices.

The thrill of a new gender goes away pretty quickly and is replaced by the understanding that you are now who you were meant to be. Crossdressers who are not transsexuals can never understand this as they treat their cravings like an addiction. You now the difference between a crossdresser and a transexual? I didn't chose this, it was given to me at birth. I never got a thrill out of wearing a petticoat or stockings or latex. I wanted to be normal and not a freak.

Now I get to fight against a tidal wave of misconceptions to gain rights for myself and anyone just so you can have your pink fog.

There, my rant is done, I feel much better. Get over the disappointment that you are not all girly and get on with your ife before it gets on with you.

[Melody Moore]

:iagree: Stephanie hit the nail right on the head. "Pink Fog" really plays no part in
the life of a transsexual female & I think you really did post this in the wrong place.

Transsexual females don't transition just to be girly, we are transitioning because of our true gender identity & about who we truly are.

Transsexuals only dress in the clothing that feels right & expresses who we truly are, but I don't think we go overboard with our 'girlyness'
like some cross-dressers do. When I look through the male-to-female cross-dressing section I can see how transsexuals & cross-dressers
are really worlds apart.

[Jorja]

But just for you my dear, here is a bottle of pink fog to carry with you when you need it. ;)

[Melissa Jill]

Though im only a crossdresser, I too always thought the pink fog was just a CD thing.

[Ericka2]

This is my first time hearing of such thing, no pink fog here, just a female trying to crawl out of this body......

Love, Ericka

[Aprilrain]

I'm pretty freaking tired of the EXTREAM bitchiness that goes on around here. It seems like no one can express their feelings with out some one having a hissy fit. Get over your selves!

girlalex, everybodys experience is different. Don't let others tell you who you are or how you should feel. If you meet a hundred transgendered people you will hear a hundred different ways that people have dealt with their gender issues.
I find that my need/desire to express femininity waxes and wanes but the internal need/desire to have a female body to match my mind is pretty constant. I can do things that are mentally demanding so that I don't have to be so stressed out over it all the time but at this point in my life these are stop gap messures. I think it's normal for some people to experience what is described as the "pink fog". If youve lived a life time of suppression this thing tends to explode on to the scean at some point. My therapists has told me that this is quite common and she rarly works with CDs, the transgendered people she is talking about are TSes. I can tell you that no woman, GG or TS, feels ultra femme all the time. Ask any mom how femme she feels when she's wearing sweat pants, running late and has baby puke in her hair.

On a side note I must say that I have meet post op TSes that love to wear corsets and Victorian era dresses pretty much all the time and their GG girlfriends look just as riddiculus. Ive meet CDs that look rather conservitive and like any other woman their age. Transgendered people are as diverse as the general population. Personally I'm kind of conservative but I also have sisters that are trendy so I'm not allowed to look like your typical, no style having school marm/librarian TS or I will hear about it!

[AllieSF]

Great post April. I have also seen the mix of personalities and pink fog moments in TS's. I will say that most are dealing with who they are and not what they wear.

[Stephanie Anne]

I'm pretty freaking tired of the EXTREAM bitchiness that goes on around here. It seems like no one can express their feelings with out some one having a hissy fit. Get over your selves!

girlalex, everybodys experience is different. Don't let others tell you who you are or how you should feel. If you meet a hundred transgendered people you will hear a hundred different ways that people have dealt with their gender issues.
I find that my need/desire to express femininity waxes and wanes but the internal need/desire to have a female body to match my mind is pretty constant. I can do things that are mentally demanding so that I don't have to be so stressed out over it all the time but at this point in my life these are stop gap messures. I think it's normal for some people to experience what is described as the "pink fog". If youve lived a life time of suppression this thing tends to explode on to the scean at some point. My therapists has told me that this is quite common and she rarly works with CDs, the transgendered people she is talking about are TSes. I can tell you that no woman, GG or TS, feels ultra femme all the time. Ask any mom how femme she feels when she's wearing sweat pants, running late and has baby puke in her hair.

On a side note I must say that I have meet post op TSes that love to wear corsets and Victorian era dresses pretty much all the time and their GG girlfriends look just as riddiculus. Ive meet CDs that look rather conservitive and like any other woman their age. Transgendered people are as diverse as the general population. Personally I'm kind of conservative but I also have sisters that are trendy so I'm not allowed to look like your typical, no style having school marm/librarian TS or I will hear about it!

I have valid reason for not wanting to accept such things in a safe forum for transexuals. We aren't crossdressers and as such do not deserve the unfair discrimination poured out against us everyday by those who confuse us for such. The day I stop getting shat upon for being trans because someone thinks I have a fetish is the day I stop having issues with those who do indeed perpetuate the stereotype

On top of that I'm not sure what yo are getting on about. I enjoy dressing like a nerdy librarian so I take slight offense to your mention of it. The difference between a ts and a crossdresser is they can take off the pretend while we, like CIS women, do not.

[Aprilrain]

Girlalex, I just wanted to add that I think it's great that you had such an extended period of a heightened sense of joy and excitement over your gender expression. Good luck with school, hope you can figure out who you are and what you need.
April

[Rianna Humble]

You now what? I'm going to jump down your throat just a little bit. Not because of who you are but because you seem to not understand the commitment we transexuals give.

In that case, I'll pull you back out of her throat. Just because you don't like the term that girlalex uses to describe the euphoria she has felt since accepting herself, that does not make her a second class citizen or give you the right to trat her as one.

[Stephanie Anne]

In that case, I'll pull you back out of her throat. Just because you don't like the term that girlalex uses to describe the euphoria she has felt since accepting herself, that does not make her a second class citizen or give you the right to trat her as one.

You want to talk about second class citizens, lets talk. I have to be on edge every day I go outside because the world at large thinks I am some guy with mommy issues who gets off dressing in skirts. That stigma hurts me to the core and if it means I hold a grudge against someone who thinks their way and fantasy is the same as what my fellow TS members go through on a daily basis, then I apologize for you being hurt at my anger but I'm going to hold them to a different standard than I do those who gave up everything to have a normal life. Crossdressers don't sacrifice work and friendships unless they chose to expose themselves. Transexuals expose themselves to every aspect of their life before we reach a stage where we can incorporate our gender into the mainstream.

I hear words like pink fog like it is a game and I get disappointed. I fail to see how a crossdresser who does not feel a dysphoric nature over their assigned gender will ever understand what we go through. We aren't doing this to escape, we are doing this because we have to, not because we want to. I read over and over again "I am happy to be my male self and would never give that up". Well those of us who are MTF do give that up so if you don't mind, give us the respect we deserve and stop trying to associate something unrelated to us outside of appearance.

[Rianna Humble]

We aren't doing this to escape, we are doing this because we have to, not because we want to. I read over and over again "I am happy to be my male self and would never give that up". Well those of us who are MTF do give that up so if you don't mind, give us the respect we deserve and stop trying to associate something unrelated to us outside of appearance.

There you go jumping to conclusions again - Now I need to pull you out of my throat. Don't try climbing back in until you have at least read something of who I am.

[Jessinthesprings]

I think Crossdressers and early transition TS's alike all have their days when being John would just be easier. Perhaps not worth losing everything you like in a very conflicting, confusing, and sometimes miserable life for a whole lot of uncertainty... and the one thing for certain you will never be able to hide and you will get to see who the bigots are. That's a whole lot of scary.

Stephanie Anne I feel the passion in your posts and I could not agree more that the trans sterotype is really not a positive one. Drag Queens probably hurt our image more than any crossdresser and funny thing is most of them are probably not even trans (though I'm sure there is a lage percentage that is). What makes it worse is those who can go stealth would probably give the cause most creadance in showing the world we are not freaks... But most go stealth and dissapear after transition. And I could not blame this one bit.

Girlalex my question for you is this: Is your desire to be a woman gone or just your desire to dress up? The answer to that question could help seperate the boys from the girls. There is no right or wrong answer.

[juligirl1984]

Jessinthesprings I think you asked the rite question to her. I am at that point rite how you explained it. I know I am TS and guess I have always knew but I denied it and just thought I crossdressed. boy was I wrong for doing that! Well the journey has begun for me and I do see the difference of the two thanks to kitty on the forum. I also see how Stephanie is "touchy" on the subject. Its hard when people confuse you for a freak and something you are not or assuming you do it for a totally wrong reason. I snapped at my sister once for just a simple thing she got confused saying I had a fetish with it. it was not her fault, she didn't understand and was nieave. Now she has came around and totally helps out and is there for me. sorry I kinda rambled on a bit! anyways you asked a good question to Girlalex. and Stephanie hang in there! I bet its rough, I admire your posts and how you defend. I wish I could go out in my town but I'd get lynched or something.

[Deborah_UK]

I sometimes wonder why some responses on this forum are so aggressive, OK so the OP may have made a mistake in posting the question on the TS forum, but my initial response - while alluding to it, was a polite response, I don't see why it should have been responded to in such an aggresive manner.


I face discrimination and snide remarks every single day of my life because of the negative stigma partially perpetuated by the pink fog excuses of crossdressers

I'm sorry you face such issues Stephanie, my experience is completely opposite, and I've never experience "negative stigma", perhaps I'm lucky. But IMO there was no need to really tear into the OP in such an aggressive manner.


I have to be on edge every day I go outside because the world at large thinks I am some guy with mommy issues who gets off dressing in skirts Again not in my experience, I just get on with my life as a woman. I also have friends who are crossdressers who would certainly take issue with being considered as "some guy with mommy issues". I really feel this is an unnecessary slur.

[Gerrijerry]

Dressing as a woman and wanting to be a woman are not the same. OK the point has been made there is a difference between CD and TS. A very big difference. However both have there right to go on and enjoy life. So girls play nice. Accept each other, because we have enought problems with others accepting each group.

[cara]

I concur with AprilRain, get over yourselves.
Not all crossdressers will become Transsexuals, but weren't all Transsexuals crossdressers at one time?
We are all in a state of transition or else we wouldn't hang onto this forum.
Cara

[Melody Moore]

but weren't all Transsexuals crossdressers at one time?
No - I felt more angry, awkward & out of place as 'cross-dresser' when I dressed as a male.

Whether of not some of you care to admit it or not, Stephanie has a very valid point she is
making here & there is no other way to express it - sorry if her type of brutal honesty hurts.

[Stephanie Anne]

There you go jumping to conclusions again - Now I need to pull you out of my throat. Don't try climbing back in until you have at least read something of who I am.

Why do you think this is about you? If you are in transition, I am not even talking about you. Hell, I am not even talking about the majority of people here. I think you have unresolved issues that are being projected onto my words.

My view stands and not without good reason. I feel very passionate about my views and am not going to apologize for taking issue against people who want everything without sacrifice.



weren't all Transsexuals crossdressers at one time?

No. I can count on two hands the number of times in my young life I tried to crossdress but never really felt it. I don't consider my pre transition life as ever crossdressing. I tried to come to terms with my transsexuality but never could until now. The idea of dressing in woman's clothes never satisfied me.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Whether of not some of you care to admit it or not, Stephanie has a very valid point she is
making here & there is no other way to express it - sorry if her type of brutal honesty hurts.

Actually there is a much better way to express it...
like

To the OP
Pink fog is a term that is usually about crossdressing
TS is about identity..don't worry about pink fog and "feeling girly".. if you feel like you are a woman, those feelings are a side light to everything else.
if you don't feel like you are a woman, then what is the problem? you get to crossdress when you want, and not crossdress when you don't feel like it..

In my own words,
dressing up and and doing things to be more feminine are common for transsexuals and so lots of folks (many ts people at first too) confuse being transsexual with crossdressing..
and similar to crossdressers, many transsexuals feel euphoric about their dressing and feminine presentation..which is very confusing to those of us that crossdressed alot

As Melody points out though, many transsexuals don't find comfort in dressing (although it's better than nothing, and non transitioning transsexuals may disagree)..again it's very confusing to feel awkward and out of place "dressed up" but to feel like a woman on the inside...

Transsexualism is about identity...it's about the feeling that you are not existing as a person because every single moment of your life feels emptier and emptier without the day to day affirmation of your soul's/mind's gender
this is something that is very unique to transsexuals, its a very profound suffering that sets TS apart...

there is alot of transsexuals that crossdressed early and often, and loved it..pink fog may be considered a bad term, but it's descriptive of the first time you see yourself in a way that affirms your femaleness
it is very understandable why a person would compare "pink fog" to part of the arc of a transsexual's coming out
When that feeling goes away, it's often followed by the gender dysphoria everyone talks about as you realize you are not crossdressing for enjoyment but instead you are fulfilling your fundamental instinct a person...you are expressing your identity

I don't agree with the tone of Stephanie's comments..the truth's in her statement are crowded out
being transsexual does not make our difficulties any more special than anyone else...the predjudice and difficulties we face in our lives are not because somebody used the term pink fog out of line..
The profound and deep (and usually held in) suffering we experience is totally and completely incomprehensible to others, cisgendered people are mostly unmoved by it (they have big problems too)..
and while "jumping down people's throats" is a passionate, understandable, honest response, it's not going to help anybody..

[gretchen2]

This post will have no negative impact on me today when I walk out my front door. Neither will any other post on this whole website impact me in a negative way. So pull up your big girl panties and have a really nice day.

[Marissa]

Girlalex, please take the the 'geniune' responses to your OP to heart such as Kaitlyn's and also learn from this that you understand which topics go where..and if ever unsure, start the thread with "sorry if this is in the wrong section, mods please move if needed".

As you can see you have entered another deminsion where the term 'crossdresser' is once again sliced and diced where one can view it as being a crossdresser is just so wrong..oh..wait, its right as long as you stay in your corner.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephanie Anne: If someone else's child drops to the floor and throws a tantrum in a grocery store. Some will stare and roll their eyes..others may even find it so unbearable and leave their cart behind and walk out empty handed. But none will try to understand why the child is acting as such and if the reason is valid.

Okay, you came at one person who may have posted in the wrong section..you gave it in a manner that even poked the side of Rianna, who in her own rights shares your plight very much. That says alot.

You want people to hear your message??? if that is how it comes across...guess I'll just get lost in my 'pink fog'.

[Rianna Humble]

Why do you think this is about you ?

Do you mean why did I think that a rant in direct response to something I said was being addressed to me? I have absolutely no idea! I dare say you will also state that the question of why I thought you were adressing me was not addressed to me either.

[Aprilrain]

Why does calling ones self a transsexual give one person the right to wear clothes marketed to women but calling ones self a Crossdresser does not? Just because I have no interest in black lip stick and three foot liberty spikes doesn't give me the right to tell someone else how to dress.
Many CDers will tell you that for them CDing was not a chooise and that they were compelled to Crossdress from an early age. often times CDs face divorce, estrangement from loved ones and firing from their job if found out because of CDing. ALL of us have internal stuggles that no one else has the right to judge!
The OP never stated one way or the other wether she was a TS or a CD, so it is an assumption that because she used the term "pink fog" that she is a CDer but even if she is that should not make a difference. I think the OP had a valid question regardless of her gender identity.
We are all human (I assume) so therefore we will make mistakes so I think that if we can try to remember the "golden rule" and "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all" that the forum will be a better place for it.

[Jorja]

I first read this thread early yesterday morning and was really upset with a few of the replies. Fortunately I had to catch a flight at 7:00 am. It took all I had to keep myself quiet before making an a$$ of myself. I did opt for a comment later on while checking back.
While some have had a few valid points, they have gone about expressing themselves in an immature way. Please take a few minutes to take a deep breath and think about what you are about to post. There is no reason to berate, degrade, or belittle anyone in these forums. Even though we may identify differently, we all are in the same boat. If we do not support and understand each other, how do you ever expect John and Joan Q. Public to ever understand us?
I do want to say to Stephanie Anne and anyone thinking about transition, if you thought transition was going to be a cake walk, you should have done some research before starting transition. If you thought you were not going to be called everything from sissy to fagot and then some, you have a warped view of the society we live in. Believe me, it does eventually get better. Keep your head held high and be proud of what you are doing no matter what.

[Sharon]

Geez, where to start..., where to start....

Oh the heck with the lecture about respect around here, it just never really sinks in, does it? But, then again....

Calm down and respect the originator of this thread. Okay? It may have been placed in the wrong section of the forum (my first thought), but maybe not. Personally, I don't think the term "pink fog" is relevant to transsexuals, but if I stretch my mind a bit I can see that maybe it can in a sense. Regardless of any of this, however, PLAY NICE or no Oreos and Cream ice cream for you!!! :Playnice:

[Kathryn Martin]

Actually there is a much better way to express it...
like

To the OP
Pink fog is a term that is usually about crossdressing
TS is about identity..don't worry about pink fog and "feeling girly".. if you feel like you are a woman, those feelings are a side light to everything else.
if you don't feel like you are a woman, then what is the problem? you get to crossdress when you want, and not crossdress when you don't feel like it..

In my own words,
dressing up and and doing things to be more feminine are common for transsexuals and so lots of folks (many ts people at first too) confuse being transsexual with crossdressing..
and similar to crossdressers, many transsexuals feel euphoric about their dressing and feminine presentation..which is very confusing to those of us that crossdressed alot

As Melody points out though, many transsexuals don't find comfort in dressing (although it's better than nothing, and non transitioning transsexuals may disagree)..again it's very confusing to feel awkward and out of place "dressed up" but to feel like a woman on the inside...

Transsexualism is about identity...it's about the feeling that you are not existing as a person because every single moment of your life feels emptier and emptier without the day to day affirmation of your soul's/mind's gender
this is something that is very unique to transsexuals, its a very profound suffering that sets TS apart...

there is alot of transsexuals that crossdressed early and often, and loved it..pink fog may be considered a bad term, but it's descriptive of the first time you see yourself in a way that affirms your femaleness
it is very understandable why a person would compare "pink fog" to part of the arc of a transsexual's coming out
When that feeling goes away, it's often followed by the gender dysphoria everyone talks about as you realize you are not crossdressing for enjoyment but instead you are fulfilling your fundamental instinct a person...you are expressing your identity

I don't agree with the tone of Stephanie's comments..the truth's in her statement are crowded out
being transsexual does not make our difficulties any more special than anyone else...the predjudice and difficulties we face in our lives are not because somebody used the term pink fog out of line..
The profound and deep (and usually held in) suffering we experience is totally and completely incomprehensible to others, cisgendered people are mostly unmoved by it (they have big problems too)..
and while "jumping down people's throats" is a passionate, understandable, honest response, it's not going to help anybody..

Thank you it had to be said.

Girlalex: it is quite usual, that during times when we are challenged from the outside, especially when meeting new people we may vacillate between being a girl and not wanting to close a door on new potentially exciting relationships. I had my first business meeting yesterday dressed as a woman (my timetable for transition is fully underway, including hormones, electrolysis etc). I was very nervous, because apart from having the meeting dressed as Kathryn, there were real issues to be dealt with and questions to be resolved. Sometimes that will push being a woman into the background since in that context being female is not the primary concern.

While pink fog maybe a wrong expression, it is, or better it's transsexual equivalent is something we all experience. I used this expression to describe myself for lack of a better term for some time. It usually describes a state to explain how everything revolves around you being feminine often to the detriment of our relationships etc. This will vane when life demands our attention.

Your feelings of being female will return, if you are transsexual. They will also return if you are gender variant in any way. However, as a transsexual they leave ultimately no choice, but many decisions to be made.

I hope this helps.

[Rianna Humble]

While pink fog maybe a wrong expression, it is, or better it's transsexual equivalent is something we all experience.

:yt:


I used this expression to describe myself for lack of a better term for some time. It usually describes a state to explain how everything revolves around you being feminine often to the detriment of our relationships etc. This will wane when life demands our attention.

You got it in one. What a pity that we can't all see things as clearly as you and Kaitlyn expressed it.


Your feelings of being female will return, if you are transsexual. They will also return if you are gender variant in any way. However, as a transsexual they leave ultimately no choice, but many decisions to be made.

I hope this helps.

ICBW, but from reading her other posts, I think that girlalex is still coming to terms with being transsexual, hopefully your words will help her in that.

[gretchen2]

The entertainment value on this website is priceless.

[Melody Moore]

While pink fog maybe a wrong expression, it is, or better it's transsexual equivalent is something we all experience.
i agree there is a state of euphoria you go through as transsexual & starting on hormones that I think is similar to 'pink fog' but the two states of euphoria are quite different.

The pink fog or euphoria that I see in the mainstream cross-dressing community is similar to that what a young teenage girl goes through with clothes, make-up, jewellery & other girly stuff. The euphoria a transsexual experiences is more to do with the inner peace & happiness felt from being finally being set free to express themselves in their true gender identity & when their minds are put at rest with hormone therapy.

[Aprilrain]

The entertainment value on this website is priceless.

Agreed! Nice pic BTW.


i agree there is a state of euphoria you go through as transsexual & starting on hormones that I think is similar to 'pink fog' but the two states of euphoria are quite different.

This is just semantics. This reads like some sort of pseudoscientific data but clearly lacks an objective perspective.

I think the real problem with this whole thread is that there is no clear definition of what "pink fog" means nor will there ever be. It is merely a cute way of describing the euphoria sometimes felt by gender variant people. While I take transsexualism very seriously, nothing is worth taking so seriously that one must tiptoe around every syllable typed for fear of offending someone!


The pink fog or euphoria that I see in the mainstream cross-dressing community is similar to that what a young teenage girl goes through with clothes, make-up, jewellery & other girly stuff.

Really? Have you ever been a young girl or a CDer? Maybe your statement accurately describes some peoples experience but certainly not all. Ultimately, I feel that posts such as this seek only to denigrate others, that the author feels that his or hers experience is serious and valid but the object of the writing's experience is frivolous and petty, worthy only of derision.

If Gender identity is a continuum, which is too linear and simplistic but we'll go with it for the sake of argument, then there is some fine line somewhere between the CD and the TS. The two conditions are not mutually exclusive. The very people who seem so quick to label and box a CDer are the very same people who have written post decrying boxes and labels. I really can't tell you what it is like to be a "CD", "GG", "TS", all i can tell you is what it is like to be me, from my perspective. These labels, like all words, are useful for communication and expediency but ultimately the humanity of a person gets lost in such descriptors. What woman wants to be a "GG"? Is that all she is, a genetic girl? no of course not but the term makes typing easier. Who sits around all day being a transsexual? at some point you have to get up and be a worker or student or parent or whatever.

[Stephanie Anne]

I'm seriously tempted to type "last word" just to mess with people here.

[Aprilrain]

I'm seriously tempted to type "last word" just to mess with people here.

Thats actually funny!

[Stephanie Anne]

Thats actually funny!

LAST WORD! take that!

[Rianna Humble]

LAST WORD! take that!

I'll take it, will you?

[Stephanie Anne]

I'll take it, will you?

No, I will not take it.

[girlalex]

You now what? I'm going to jump down your throat just a little bit. Not because of who you are but because you seem to not understand the commitment we transexuals give.

There is no pink fog with us as we sacrifice the ability to hide behind a male persona when things get tough. I face discrimination and snide remarks every single day of my life because of the negative stigma partially perpetuated by the pink fog excuses of crossdressers. I don't have the luxury of waking up and saying "golly gee I think I will be Frank today so I don't have to be ridiculed at the office".

I sacrificed that safety blanket when I said to myself that one more day of living a half life and a lie would kill me. So if you don't mind, give some respect to my fellow brothers and sisters who have made the same sacrifices.

The thrill of a new gender goes away pretty quickly and is replaced by the understanding that you are now who you were meant to be. Crossdressers who are not transsexuals can never understand this as they treat their cravings like an addiction. You now the difference between a crossdresser and a transexual? I didn't chose this, it was given to me at birth. I never got a thrill out of wearing a petticoat or stockings or latex. I wanted to be normal and not a freak.

Now I get to fight against a tidal wave of misconceptions to gain rights for myself and anyone just so you can have your pink fog.

There, my rant is done, I feel much better. Get over the disappointment that you are not all girly and get on with your ife before it gets on with you.

Stephany please don't get me wrong, I highly appriciate and respect people like you who have the courage to become who they really are. The only reason why you are not still a crossdresser is because you are honest to yourslef and regardless of what anyone thinks or says you are confident that what you know about your gander is first priority and is something that is to be taken seriously. The difference between you and me is that you are a full time mtf where is I am many stages behind lucking the confidence to become the girl i allways wanted to be. this is exactly why i come here somtimes and post because i feel like i can relate to you also. the reason why i mentioned the pink fog was because it scared me for a second that the whole tg thing was just in my head. turns out that for the past 2 days i've been xdressing lol. from your response it makes me feel that the pink fog is just every crossdressers' mind reminding us that we still have a long way to go before we become truely happy. didn't mean to piss you off.

[girlalex]

In that case, I'll pull you back out of her throat. Just because you don't like the term that girlalex uses to describe the euphoria she has felt since accepting herself, that does not make her a second class citizen or give you the right to trat her as one.
Thank you...
in other words i would say that the pink fog is the time when i feel like who I really am as a female.

[girlalex]

but weren't all Transsexuals crossdressers at one time?

Exactly my point. at first i thought i was a feak. then i thought i was a cd. now... well... its only getting better.

[girlalex]

I read over and over again "I am happy to be my male self and would never give that up". Well those of us who are MTF do give that up so if you don't mind, give us the respect we deserve and stop trying to associate something unrelated to us outside of appearance.

Well no two crossdresser are the same. some stay cds others go beyond. in my case "I am NOT happy to be my male slef and WOULD give that up" because
apparently i DON'T give a #$%@ that it hurts so much when i pluk the hair out of my face! I feel so much better now without that hair on my face. I feel like my soul is lighter.

[Melody Moore]

This is just semantics. This reads like some sort of pseudoscientific data but clearly lacks an objective perspective.

Ultimately, I feel that posts such as this seek only to denigrate others, that the author feels that his or hers experience is serious and valid but the object of the writing's experience is frivolous and petty, worthy only of derision.Really April? And you think I lack 'objective perspective' eh?

Hopefully after this post you will realise that your attempt to denigrate me with your writings is fairly frivolous.

First of all you need to realise that it was never my intention to denigrate others. If this is what you into read
into my posts here, then that is YOUR interpretation & problem, not mine - I was simply stating what are well
facts already well known within the transgender community. So you want some objective perspective to back
myself up on this eh?

I have engaged in and followed many discussions on this topic in a number of other transgender & transsexual
support groups which I am a member of - including with my local transgender support group. One recent discussion
I had was in this thread here - Pink Fog (TRANSSEXUALS ONLY REPLY PLEASE) (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?142137-Pink-Fog-%28TRANSSEXUALS-ONLY-REPLY-PLEASE%29) - so you might want to read it and
take good note of the fact that I was also involved in that discussion when you were merely a new member of this
forum for just a few days. So please consider this before you ever try discrediting my input on this subject again.

The fact is whether you care to admit or not cross-dressers & transsexuals are very different people in
the transgender spectrum & quite often they don't see eye-to-eye because they are so different in so
many ways. Yes, some transsexuals have identified with the cross-dressing community at some stage
through their transitioning, whereas others like myself, Stephanie and quite a few other transsexuals I
personally know have never identified with the cross-dressing Community. I am not saying one group is
better than the other, but more often than not, cross-dressers do lack the knowledge & understanding
held by transsexuals in this community. The reason is because they have been dealing with these issues
and have undergone counselling as a transsexual to get to the point they are in their lives. Transsexuals
seem to understand the variants in the transgender spectrum better because we have been trying to work
out where we fit in exactly into this spectrum.

More often than not most of the transsexuals I know tend to identify more with the intersex community
rather than the cross-dressing community because they believe their conditions & needs are very similar.

Now getting back to the topic of Pink Fog or Euphoria here are some quotes I would like you to read from
Pink Fog (TRANSSEXUALS ONLY REPLY PLEASE) (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?142137-Pink-Fog-%28TRANSSEXUALS-ONLY-REPLY-PLEASE%29) that highlight the differences between CDers & Transsexuals.


I've read the definition of "pink fog" as to mean engrossing your feminine side at the expense of your male life. I never thought to apply it to someone who is trying to move away from her male life completely.

One amusing thing I've read about the difference between a CD and a TG: a CD goes home from work and can't wait to put high heels on. A TG goes home from work and can't wait to take her high heels off.

I see more of a curve to climb in discovering yourself, and lots of things that are exciting for a CD becomes mundane to TG (as it is with a GG). For me this curve was (is?) pretty steep, but the steepness can vary.


I understand the pink fog is like 16 year old teenage girls discovering their sexuality clothes, fashion, make up and boys(or girls). The difference to a CD is that reality don't come crashing down on their heads.

It's like love. Doesn't last.


personally I think we all go thru it (pink fog) because there is a time when you are not sure you are TS and you feel a need that you just don't understand and try to fill it. be it with clothes or other ways. Once you realize and start to accept that you are a TS and not CD (sorry the only way I can think of saying it) The clothes just are only important as part of the larger picture of who you are and not exciting as it was before. So To me once you embrace the TS idea post or pre. Being dressed as a woman is no more exciting then being dressed as a male. Unless it is a special outfit wedding, formal party etc. no big deal. As others have said the fog is just gone and all we then want to do is complete the transformation and move on with a normal life. However as with any woman I would think that we all want to be seen and respected as a woman not a male dressed as a woman. So to me passing as some call it becomes a bigger issue so that you can just blend in and go on with your life. Please just my own feelings.
If its true what Gerrijerry says here and that we all go through it, it seems to be when you do realise that
you are transsexual it disappears as you move towards having a 'normal life'. Maybe the OP is arriving at
that point where she might be realising that she is Transsexual and not just a cross-dresser.

I find these humble comments very enlightening given the comments of Rianna in this thread.


I have had a sense of well-being rather than "pink fog" euphoria.

As for getting carried away with "an unrealistic fantasy of beauty and male slaves trailing behind with their mouths open", I think that in my case, the danger of that for me can be weighed by what I said to my GP when I first sought her help:

"I would rather die an ugly woman than live another day as a man".

In summary, I believe that some transsexuals will experience 'pink fog' but I also believe that these girls have issues & are still trying to find themselves. In one case that I know of, a T-girl I know personally is more of a 'gay crossdresser' rather than a true transsexual. This person is suffering from severe mental health issues (http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2010/07/09/117341_local-news.html). Other transsexuals in my local support group believe that she is transitioning for all the wrong reasons. This person is also mentioned thread I have quoted here.

My only regret about Stephanie's comments in this thread are was when she said that she was going to jump down the OP's throat. But apart from that one single statement, Stephanie does speak the truth on this subject. Also Stephanie and I have become good friends because we are very much alike and I totally understand her point of view. But most of all I really like Stephanie because she isn't afraid to speak her mind & express her opinions openly & honestly in fear of upsetting someone, or is pandering to political correctness or sugar coating things for others. Sometimes the real honest truth is brutal & it hurts and that is all there is to it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I guess that settles it..

and april, pls don't worry...additional attempts to denigrate will not be necessary

[Melody Moore]

LAST WORD! take that!
Well Stephanie, it seems it wasn't you or me who had to have the last word :lol:

[Rianna Humble]

I find these humble comments very enlightening given the comments of Rianna in this thread.


I have had a sense of well-being rather than "pink fog" euphoria. Whilst I was still unsure of how much of myself I was willing to accept, I do believe that I had an episode of pink fog
...
As for getting carried away with "an unrealistic fantasy of beauty and male slaves trailing behind with their mouths open", I think that in my case, the danger of that for me can be weighed by what I said to my GP when I first sought her help:

"I would rather die an ugly woman than live another day as a man".

In summary, I believe that some transsexuals will experience 'pink fog' but I also believe that these girls have issues & are still trying to find themselves.

I can agree with that summary, but am unsure which part of your edited quote from me is in opposition to my contention that girlalex used the wrong term to describe how she has been feeling since she began to accept herself. Or is it more that you see a difference between my experience and not wanting people to treat someone as a second class citizen?

Neither do I see any inconsistency between those words you quoted and my reaction when Stephanie told me I don't understand what MtF transsexuals have sacrificed and that I should give them respect (clearly suggesting that I am not TS).

[Deborah_UK]

Stephanie does speak the truth on this subject. Also Stephanie and I have become good friends because we are very much alike and I totally understand her point of view. But most of all I really like Stephanie because she isn't afraid to speak her mind & express her opinions openly & honestly in fear of upsetting someone, or is pandering to political correctness or sugar coating things for others. Sometimes the real honest truth is brutal & it hurts and that is all there is to it.

I'm sorry (and it may only be semantics) but she doesn't speak the "truth" (conversely by saying she's not speaking the truth does not mean she's lieing either) , it may be her experience, and accordingly the truth to her, but its not the truth to me, its an opinion, and as such she's entitled to it, but to to call it "real honest truth" appears to give validation to what is merely an opinion based on her experience. That's the problem with so many generalisations, and I really believe the aggressive tone does more harm than good.

[girlalex]

wow i didn't know that the "pink fog" was such a powerful expression in our community lol. there was so much of it around me that i couldn't see a few steps ahead that
it would lead to that. lol. can everybody just stop arguing.

[Stephanie Anne]

wow i didn't know that the "pink fog" was such a powerful expression in our community lol. there was so much of it around me that i couldn't see a few steps ahead that
it would lead to that. lol. can everybody just stop arguing.

I promise to let it go if you promise to be truthful with yourself. I guess a few people just can't stop being wannabe politicians is all.

[girlalex]

I'm still discovering my self.

[Hope]

I have valid reason for not wanting to accept such things in a safe forum for transexuals. We aren't crossdressers and as such do not deserve the unfair discrimination poured out against us everyday by those who confuse us for such. The day I stop getting shat upon for being trans because someone thinks I have a fetish is the day I stop having issues with those who do indeed perpetuate the stereotype

Maybe the people you should be angry with are the people who are discriminating against you and the CDs as well, and not CDs who - as you pointed out - already get enough unfair discrimination.

Yeah, lots of CDs have a fetish. Yeah, lots of them like to indulge their fetish. The question you should be asking is "So the **** what?" not "why do I have to put up with people who have icky fetishes?"

It's like when people assume being trans is a choice. No, it's not, obviously, but so what if it is? Do we not deserve to live our lives as we choose just as others do? Don't our CD sisters have that same right?

Be angry with the bigots if you must - not with your sisters who have different needs and experiences than you do.

[Starling]

Inspired by yet another round of recriminations, I started to write a learned essay on the subject of sterotyping, interwoven with my own experience as a boy of the 'Fifties who dreamed of being a girl, but I got tired.

I felt I was different from a very early age. When this four-year-old was turned loose in a toy store, I remember him demanding a very pretty tea set, and I also remember the flap it caused. What I don't remember is any kind of "inciting incident," which galvanized in me a desire to be a girl or try on women's clothes. Whatever I am today, I already was.

I'm only talking about MTF here, because it's what I am experiencing, and I'm talking from my experience.

In a nutshell, I wish for all the world to have been born cisgendered--either way--but that wasn't my fate. No, I was destined to spend my life as an outsider, an imposter, a spy. Every once in awhile I would slip, and get a sharp look from someone for sitting with my leg tucked under me, or standing with my hands on my hips, or twisting my long hair in a characteristically feminine way. Or asking a woman where she got those great shoes. Or knowing that those tubular buttons were called "frogs". It wasn't me emulating female behavior. It was me trying not to.

I dress because I can't not dress and still function. When I am dressed, I feel real. When I have to change back, I grieve. This doesn't mean that I can't feel pleasure at having lots of clothes and shoes, and enjoying shopping and posting in the CD forums. (I think of all the people who present female here as women, unless they take pains to deny it.) If the line between TS and CD is so clear, why do so many people wander in the desert for forty clueless years and finally have to undergo gender counseling to find out who they really are?

To be considered TS do you have to believe suicide is your only alternative to transitioning, or could life-shortening stress (hypertension, high cortisol levels, obesity, diabetes, etc.) coped with by self-medication also signify that one might "deserve" the name? A friend once said, "Artists are not neurotic--but they become neurotic if they're not able to practice their art." I think that would apply equally well to phenotypical males with gender dysphoria who can't live as women.

Because I think many are in that category, for whom dressing (and making up, wigging and forming) are a respite from the day to day struggle to keep up a male facade that has never been comfortable or organic. I don't have anything against a happy CD fetishist who is "all man." I just can't imagine myself wanting to wear women's clothes for any reason other than to feel like the woman I really am. I don't experience my dressing as recreational, but therapeutic. And while there are hard facts that keep me from being able to transition, it doesn't mean I don't wish I could, with all my heart.

When I was growing up I was teased a lot for being girly, for not having much body hair, for having a small penis, for being fat. As a consequence, I think, ridicule does not faze me that much, and if I were to live fulltime as a woman at least I would be true to myself. But I was already pretty old when I finally figured things out, and the sacrifices to be made--not by me but others who depend on me--would be too great. I couldn't be a woman at the cost of being a human being.

So I'm a consolation CD. So sue me.

:) Lallie

[Stephanie Anne]

Maybe the people you should be angry with are the people who are discriminating against you and the CDs as well, and not CDs who - as you pointed out - already get enough unfair discrimination.

Yeah, lots of CDs have a fetish. Yeah, lots of them like to indulge their fetish. The question you should be asking is "So the **** what?" not "why do I have to put up with people who have icky fetishes?"

It's like when people assume being trans is a choice. No, it's not, obviously, but so what if it is? Do we not deserve to live our lives as we choose just as others do? Don't our CD sisters have that same right?

Be angry with the bigots if you must - not with your sisters who have different needs and experiences than you do.

Way to not even heed girlalex's request to stop. I guess you just like trying to upset people after they have let it go and reached conclusion.

Since you wont, I'll nswer your confusion.

There is no middle ground about transsexuality being a choice. It is no more a choice than being gay, left handed, born with a penis, or over 5 feet 10 inches tall. I am all these things and never had a choice in the matter with either of them.

Saying, even hypothetically, that trans could be a choice invalidates who we are. It opens the door for saying we don't have to be this way and we can choose to live lives as destitute males and be done with it.

Don't you ever think it is a choice, doing so spits in the face of people who give their lives to "choose". Crossdressers, and I reiterate for the millionth time, who are not transsexual or gender queer, do not crossdress out of a need to do so. There is no gender identity going on or need to fit into a gender different than how they were labeled. Such crossdressers do so solely for pleasure. To give someone who does such a recreational act for pleasure, the right to do so in a profesional setting, invalidates the struggles transsexuals go through to be accepted.

I'll continue to fight for all transgender people to have the respect they deserve but I will not delude myself into thinking that someone who has not interest in sacrificing their male privilege deserves the same rights as someone who gives up everything to live their life. My example of crossdressers can work as males as they are content being male and have no need to wear a dress so to speak, to work a job.

These fetishes you speak of have created a negative image that burdens activists who are working to get rights. Rights will come in time but priorities need to be given for those of us who are in the greatest need. Look in the upper forums and you will see it riddled with stories of wanting to indulge a fetish in all parts of daily life. I'm not assuming here, it's well documented. If your presented gender is male and you have no interest in transitioning to female, you should do so in your presented gender when dealing with professional situations. If you are gender queer then your presented gender is a grey area and you may have to compromise until such time as social acceptance catches up. However, if we all demand that the world at large accept us right away, its going to be nearly impossible to get understanding if we keep confusing the sh*t out of people.

[Rianna Humble]

I dress because I can't not dress and still function. When I am dressed, I feel real.
...
To be considered TS do you have to believe suicide is your only alternative to transitioning, or could life-shortening stress (hypertension, high cortisol levels, obesity, diabetes, etc.) coped with by self-medication also signify that one might "deserve" the name? A friend once said, "Artists are not neurotic--but they become neurotic if they're not able to practice their art." I think that would apply equally well to phenotypical males with gender dysphoria who can't live as women.
...
while there are hard facts that keep me from being able to transition, it doesn't mean I don't wish I could, with all my heart.

Despite the intolerant attitude of some in this thread, you don't have to earn the right to be TS, you just are.

I cannot imagine how (or even if) I would cope with your situation of not being able to transition. Please don't let yourself be put off by some of the negative words, we are also here to support you.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's such a simple concept..

whining about how hard your life is, complaining that "others' are making it harder for you, putting your "needs" in front of others, denigrating others while demanding acceptance for yourself, deciding what is a choice or what isnt a choice for others while reserving your right to make that decision for yourself...

all these things are exactly what they sound like
i am guilty of whining and complaining...i have learned the hard way that any benefit i get is short lived and more about just shutting me up...
life is Cormac McCarthy hard...deal with it..and try to focus on what's important...i can think of very few things less important than how crossdressers rights are hurting me as a transsexual..

[Aprilrain]

i can think of very few things less important than how crossdressers rights are hurting me as a transsexual..

Very well said! But unfortunately, I believe, a waste of effort.

[Rianna Humble]

i can think of very few things less important than how crossdressers rights are hurting me as a transsexual..

Well said, Kaitlyn. Pity that only the converted will bother to understand your sermon.

[Melody Moore]

Why is it that certain people here insist on having the final say on this topic?

I agree 100% with what Stephanie is trying to say while I know that certain others don't but I am not going to keep
harping on about it. I have expressed my personal opinions, either you can agree with them or you don't because I
really don't care if you don't agree with me. I just want to know who here has an issue with simply agreeing to disagree?

Personally I believe this thread has ran its course & the OP has probably learnt a lot more than she ever cared to know.

[Starling]

With all respect, Melody, if someone feels they have something to add to the mix, they have every right to post in this thread. It's not about having the last word.

:) Lallie

And now, I hope, a word from...

[Melody Moore]

if someone feels they have something to add to the mix, they have every right to post in this thread. It's not about having the last word.
LaLady, its not really this issue of contributing to this topic that I was talking
about, it was more the mud-slinging match that has still been going on here.

And yep I am with you & also hope that someone else has something worthwhile to contribute to this topic to benefit the OP. ;)

[Kathryn Martin]

To give someone who does such a recreational act for pleasure, the right to do so in a profesional setting, invalidates the struggles transsexuals go through to be accepted.

Wow, this is one hell of a slippery slope. Crossdressers and gender variant people have been killed, maimed and have suffered the same indignities we have. How their conduct in public somehow invalidates my struggle to be accepted is beyond my comprehension. Don't get me wrong, I do understand your point and I am generally speaking with you, that the TG agenda has been very much front and center and has occupied the politicians minds. But, that is mostly because we have been at least politically relatively silent and have not managed to develop a narrative that underlines who we really are. Being "the enemies" of our TG sisters rather underlines a sense in the general public that we are somehow better than our TG sisters. That is of course far from the truth, we are, or they are for that matter simply different.

To denigrate "difference" gets awfully close to some very deep and dark and abysmal conduct.

[Stephanie Anne]

Wow, this is one hell of a slippery slope. Crossdressers and gender variant people have been killed, maimed and have suffered the same indignities we have. How their conduct in public somehow invalidates my struggle to be accepted is beyond my comprehension. Don't get me wrong, I do understand your point and I am generally speaking with you, that the TG agenda has been very much front and center and has occupied the politicians minds. But, that is mostly because we have been at least politically relatively silent and have not managed to develop a narrative that underlines who we really are. Being "the enemies" of our TG sisters rather underlines a sense in the general public that we are somehow better than our TG sisters. That is of course far from the truth, we are, or they are for that matter simply different.

To denigrate "difference" gets awfully close to some very deep and dark and abysmal conduct.

Very appropriate section you chose there. Let's take an example shall we? Let's say that a gay couple are into dom and sub bdsm. Let's say the sub is so 24/7. now let's say the sub is a lawyer. In his professional life he is not going to wear a control collar or blinders. That would be woefully inappropriate and portray a negative stereotype that all gay men are just fetish bdsm lovers. He my wear a ring or necklace to signify his parter's dominance over him. his partner is also going to respect his professional life enough not to let their choices interfere with his performance. They are also going to realize that pushing their fetish will paint a negative picture of gay men to those who are ignorant of lgbt people.

It's the same way with crossdessers. Just like every gay men is not into bdsm, not every crossdresser does it for similar reasons people are into bdsm. but just like the gay couple in my hypothetical, they should realize there is a time and place for everything and wearing a costume may not be appropriate on the job.

You see you still can't divorce yourself from the difference between closeted transsexuals and gender queer who crossdress and those who do so solely for a fetish. I would venture to personally speculate 80% of crossdressers on this site are ts or gq but for various reasons (fear for example) are not willing to come out. I have nothing but respect for those people as they are were I was and I know how hard that is.

The remaining 20% who are vocal about wanting to push their choices into the face of the mainstream are the one's that I am so adamant about needing to have restraint. I really don't care for the reason why and I will not accept the accusations that I vilify them.

[Starling]

Stephanie, you are talking about the minority that like to create a stir, rather than blend in. I can find that behavior embarrassing when it really crosses the line (into public nudity, for instance), but I'm not sure how it affects those of us who want to live our private lives. Isn't it possible that their sort of Mardi Gras approach sets them up as a different group entirely, more like entertainers, and doesn't really affect how all of us are seen?

After all, is it not mainly birth women who do the embarrassing things that some cross-dressers or even transsexual women do--wear skimpy clothes, pole dance, hook and make porn films? And this does not color the perception of women in general, except among the mentally ill.

Has anyone done a scientific study to suss out what factors most influence our mainstream acceptance? It would be interesting to get some real answers. After all, every Pride parade from the very beginning has prominently featured party behavior guaranteed to offend some, yet gay rights are firmly established in all parts of the US, if not among all segments of the population.

I'm hopeful the same thing will happen for us fairly soon. Barring some unforeseen disaster, the generation in school now gives me great faith in the future of gender acceptance.

:) Lallie

[ReineD]

Has anyone done a scientific study to suss out what factors most influence our mainstream acceptance? It would be interesting to get some real answers.

Societies throughout history have had issues with gender and sexual variance despite the presence of isolated groups like the Hirjas, Berdaches, Kathoeys, Fa'fafines, etc. I don't pretend to know all the answers, but the reasons for this are varied and deep. There's a recent thread devoted to the topic and there just isn't one tidy, neat little answer:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?147901-A-Simple-Question...

So it's ridiculous to blame CDers for the difficulties that TSs experience as they transition. Other than the TSs who've been on hormones for awhile, honestly I'd be hard pressed to tell whether the majority of the people who attend my SO's gender group are TS or CD (and there is a healthy mixture of both who appear to all be friends) since most, unless they're just starting out and learning, present themselves well. They don't look like "some guy with mommy issues who gets off dressing in skirts". I think it's cruel to characterize the CDers who are out and about in the mainstream this way.

[Starling]

That's an interesting thread, Reine. But I was taking about a statistical study of public attitudes toward crossdressers and transsexuals, broken down various ways; and of the stated reasons for these attitudes. What I'm most interested in is the generational shift in attitudes that we have all noticed, and the reasons for that phenomenon. It might give us some clues as to how we can better get across the fact that what we do is a normal and understandable--and survival-adapted--response to our biological nature.

:) Lallie

[ReineD]

But I was taking about a statistical study of public attitudes toward crossdressers and transsexuals, broken down various ways; and of the stated reasons for these attitudes.

I'd love to see this too. :) I only posted the link to show the possible reasons are deeper and more varied than the reasons suggested in this thread.

[Starling]

Thank you, Reine, for being such a good friend and ally. I mean, of course, to all of us who share this problematic attribute.

:) Lallie