Women DO NOT have as much freedom to dressas you think!

[Mistress Frillee]

It's only in the last.. what, 50 years? If that, that girls could wear slacks to school. Jeans probably a bit more recently. Victorians tended to have fits of women in men's wear. Certainly the nobility and women at court didn't wear men's clothing in the renaissance, about the only time you DID get crossover was with field workers.

[Mistress Frillee]

Here's another point on the "women can wear anything they want and there's no consequences".

Let a girl cut her hair short, go without make-up, wear flannel shirts, work boots and guy's jeans, and she's NOT going to get harrassed with howls of "bull dyke" and "lezzie"????

[Missy]

Ok that was then - now today Girls can wear what ever they want to and know poeple readly do not give it a second thought. men can not wear dresses if they want with out poeple taking long looks or making a big deal about it. may be there will be a day in the future when both can wear what they feel like wearing and it will be acceptable

Missy

[obsessedwithpantyhose]

a female in pants is crossdressed to me..........
bare legs r sickly looking,,,,,
just my 3 cents
i would rather wear a skirt than pants or shorts,a skirt offers more freedom of movement,and if ur in a skirt u HAVE to enhance the look so u need pantyhose :D ........

[Vaerise]

Here's another point on the "women can wear anything they want and there's no consequences".

Let a girl cut her hair short, go without make-up, wear flannel shirts, work boots and guy's jeans, and she's NOT going to get harrassed with howls of "bull dyke" and "lezzie"????

I concur when I see a lady dressed like that it does strike me that she might be one. I'm sorry for stereotyping :(

But if I was borned as a GG, I would take celebrate in being female, and wear whatever clothes I so pleased. Be it girly or mans. We have came a looong way since then, and there were alot of ladies in the past whose sacrifice made it possible for us to live and dress as freely now.

[Mistress Frillee]

Maybe it all boils down to "Women can wear men's clothes as long as they still look feminine" and I would also believe the reverse is true, although there arn't many women's clothes that a man could wear and still look masculine....

[Mistress Frillee]

Now, let's examine that. .....often it's the contrast that makes the women look more feminine in men's clothes. Now, why ISN"T that transferable the other way (and I agree, it isn't)? Is it simply a matter of cultural mores and idoctrination, or is it more of a fashion "don't" for aesthetic reasons? investigation.

[Mistress Frillee]

because society places more value on the masculine traits than the feminine...otherwise men would be able to wear womens clothes & not be though of as less than a man......


Is the above statement too simple?

Is there more going on here than that? I'm thinking there's something here about the way each gender's clothing is designed. Something like (although I'm still thinking and this is just an example) the fact that women's clothing is often designed to be tighter and men's looser...something like that. I don't think it's all about gender traits. Ignoring that, I don't think women's clothes LOOK as good on men as the reverse, from a design standpoint I mean. That's also ignoring the transvestite thing, where the goal is too look like a woman, but from the "regular clothes" standpoint.

[arula]

because society places more value on the masculine traits than the feminine...otherwise men would be able to wear womens clothes & not be though of as less than a man......


Is the above statement too simple?

Is there more going on here than that? I'm thinking there's something here about the way each gender's clothing is designed. Something like (although I'm still thinking and this is just an example) the fact that women's clothing is often designed to be tighter and men's looser...something like that. I don't think it's all about gender traits. Ignoring that, I don't think women's clothes LOOK as good on men as the reverse, from a design standpoint I mean. That's also ignoring the transvestite thing, where the goal is too look like a woman, but from the "regular clothes" standpoint.

the statment is right on the money. Men are in the limelight of all societies because its always been that way. Women are very fortunate to be able to crisscross gender lines because all men have very different images of what a woman should be. Lucky girls!!

[michellejean]

i am glad that women can crossover and dress as men and not to much is said about it.but why can,t most of them be ok with we men who want to crossover and dress as women. what is wrong with us wanting to be out doors and going on with our lives.we are all human.we just don,t all look the same or act the same and ect..ect..ect..but we are all still human. it is called FREEDOM. michellejean(mrs.highheels) :) :confused: :( :)

[Mistress Frillee]

Unless your trying to look LIKE a woman, you don't have breast (at least, not of the same shape as women), you don't have broad curvy hips, I suspect your butt isn't quite shaped the same way, you just generally don't have the same physical lines.

Most women's clothing is designed and sewn with a woman's curves and proportions in mind. Which is why a lot of it will look DAMNED silly on you off the rack unless you're wearing something underneath it to replicate those curves.

Yes, there -are- some women who aren't built with a lot of curves to them. Like those thing stick straight girls, or the physique a lot of track runners have. Which is why some men CAN wear women's clothing off rack, but unless you're talking about some of the sweaters or stuff that's not cut too particular like sweatpants or tights, you generally have to be somewhat slender framed to pull it off and fit that category of overlapping body types. The aforementioned women are the ones who can swap sections of the clothing store with the greatest ease. Some clothing cut for men looks alright on me, but I've got more hips than a guy my size would, and a helluva lot more has to be taken into account in the shirt. If it's made to fit LOOSELY, as most men's clothing is, it's not such a problem. However, most women's clothing, as has been mentioned, is made to be a bit more fitted.

Half the reason people look silly (when they do look silly) while wearing opposite gender clothes is because it's not designed for their body type, and thus doesn't fit right.

[arula]

i am glad that women can crossover and dress as men and not to much is said about it.but why can,t most of them be ok with we men who want to crossover and dress as women. what is wrong with us wanting to be out doors and going on with our lives.we are all human.we just don,t all look the same or act the same and ect..ect..ect..but we are all still human. it is called FREEDOM. michellejean(mrs.highheels) :) :confused: :( :)

wrong but I think deep down inside, most of the female species look up to a strong dominate mate which has been in our history as far back as we can comprehend. Man being bigger, stronger, woman being smaller, weaker. The image of man can never be changed. Theres to many men out there that would not let it happen. If I was president? there would be no gender lines. Kisses, Arula

[Lauren_T]

because society places more value on the masculine traits than the feminine...otherwise men would be able to wear womens clothes & not be though of as less than a man......


Is the above statement too simple?
...
No...
'Let the women fool around with their unimportant airhead things. We have important things to do.'
Frilly, cheerful, fun attire doesn't fit the masculine role. Wearing feminine things shows that a man is not taking his assigned role seriously, and is therefore avoiding his manly responsibility - so he's 'less of a man' than the grim, serious, competitive family breadwinner and protector of hearth and home...
Men are supposed to go out and compete with other males for life resources in order to provide them to the helpless women and children. Want to enjoy the finer things in life? Then you are shirking your prescribed responsiblities, and less than a 'real man.' You're seeking to adopt the role of the weaker, pampered gender, so you are selfish, lazy and, worst of all, weak.

People still take this crap seriously, even if they're not consciously aware of it.

And y'know something else that's sad? This attitude would be a thing of the past if only women wouldn't go along with it. (Because women are supposed to subserviently go along with what men decree!)

Peer pressure + stupidity + insecurity = conformity :thumbsdn:

[Kimberly]

Ask yourself why you crossdress...

Then you will know my view on this.

[Katie Ashe]

I agree with your post Mistress... But men have been wearing stockings of some type for centries, and now it's a problem? Women have been liberated and I support that, as all should be equal. But the hick up can during the WW1 when women were depressed that there SO's were at war. Stockings were a push for women to be sexy and almost like a hobbie, Media and sellers pushed for womens stockings so bad, they were a must have. Over time mens stockings dropped out of the picture and womens picked up, because of the media, not because of desire. In todays reality women are hardly limited to what they wear at all, ladies got... pants, slacks, capris, shorts,mini, skirts of all lenghts, skorts, leggings, dresses, gowns, slips etc... Men have kilts, pants, shorts. Hardly a fair comparison. Toga's seemed fair didn't they? I'm not looking for an arguement here, just pointing out, I'm on both sides here, but women really have more choices in todays life.

[Kimberly]

I'm not looking for an arguement here, just pointing out, I'm on both sides here, but women really have more choices in todays life.
This being the point of this thread, I'm thinking... Women have a lot of freedom whilst dressing, but they can't exactly crossdress and just "get away" with it.

Again... Why do we crossdress? In one way or another, to be more feminine. And to us, feminity is the clothing, and all the typical feminine implications with it.

xx

[Katie Ashe]

... , but they can't exactly crossdress and just "get away" with it. Yep, I remember that the last time a girl here was fired for wearing pants and no make-up. We had a FTM here and noone gave a sh!t, but I asked if I can wear skirts, they said not if I want to keep my job. Hardly seems fair.
Why do we crossdress... it's to help our body match our soul/feelings.

[Lauren_T]

This being the point of this thread, I'm thinking... Women have a lot of freedom whilst dressing, but they can't exactly crossdress and just "get away" with it.Well, possibly where you are, but here in urban America, few people comment or even notice any more.

One reason they can get away with it is that wearing men's (or men's-style) clothing is unconsciously seen as wanting to emulate the 'superior' gender, which is easily accepted by people who cling to traditional gender roles.
It's just the flip side of women's 'inferiority' and looking down on on a member of the 'superior' gender who would want to identify with the 'inferior' one.


Again... Why do we crossdress? In one way or another, to be more feminine. And to us, feminity is the clothing, and all the typical feminine implications with it.

xxBut let me gently remind you, those aren't the motives of every crossdresser...! There are those of us who see it the other way around; we already feel feminine - therefore we naturally gravitate to the sort of things that appeal to our feminine tastes! To us, femininity is a state of mind - how we dress is merely an optional expression of that.

[Puer]

I hope you ladies don't mind me putting my contribution in from the other side of the fence


women should dress like women..........


Why?

I assume that as a member of this forum you feel men should be able to wear what they wish, including women's clothes, so why not allow women to wear what they want - whether or not it fits the stereotype of how women should dress.

On the point of women wearing men's clothes and getting away with it. Yes, I agree, women can wear individual items previously seen as masculine, e.g. trousers or a shirt and a tie, and not be particularly commented upon. However completely dressing in men's clothing is very different - especially if you aren't very feminine with it. A woman in a man's suit with full make up, earings, etc would get a very different response to a woman in a man's suit with no make up, her hair slicked back and fake sideburns. At the least you would be assumed to be a butch lesbian, but you also risk being beaten up or raped for being different. If I turned up to work in full guy mode I would probably loose my job.

These are some of the reasons I have not yet dared to go out in public while totally dressed as a man - I wouldn't get away with it and am afraid of the consequences. I'm sure many of you can empathise with this!

Puer
x

(I'm not fussed about being thought of as a butch lesbian - after all I am one - but I am concerned about my physical safety.)

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I assume that as a member of this forum you feel men should be able to wear what they wish, including women's clothes, so why not allow women to wear what they want - whether or not it fits the stereotype of how women should dress.

Whole heartedly agree.

For what it's worth, the idea that "women can wear anything they want and there's no consequences" is really just an unrealistic grass-is-greener assumption. Teenage GGs quickly learn there's limits to what they can wear unless they want to be labelled the school ****. Likewise, a woman who dresses very masculine and doesn't wear make-up will probably face suspicions of being a butch lesbian, regardless of her sexuality.

(Incidentally, because we mostly dress alone, I think that's one reason a number of us never outgrow the teenage GG style of dress. Not that it's wrong for fantasy dressing, it's just not the sort style you want if you want to go out in public and blend in.)

Let's not kid ourselves, there's a big difference in intent between wearing women's clothes and wanting to appear as a woman. If we just wanted to wear skirts, we'd be more like Eddie Izzard-style androgynists or Skirtman. (http://www.skirtman.org/index.html) GGs may wear men's-styled clothes or even men's clothes, but they're usually not strapping and packing, nor painting on facial hair. As Puer points out, that's liable to get a very different reaction. Poor Brandon Teena (http://www.gender.org/remember/people/brandonframe.html) is an extreme example.

That said, clothing is symbolic of social status -- which why men wearing feminine clothing elict a bigger reaction than the other way around. Unfortunately, society still assumes men have a "superior" status, so it's disturbing for people (both men and women) that we want to assume an "inferior" status.

However, what's "men's" and "women's" clothing has varied over the years. In the 18th century, men were the fashion plates. Tight breeches and stocking were intended to show off the male leg. Likewise, Louis XIV (being a short guy) popularized all the modern styles of high heels, plus the wearing of wigs (to hide his baldness). Fine dressing was an expression of wealth and power. Who knows, with the metrosexual revolution, the wheel may turn again.

[Kimberly]

But let me gently remind you, those aren't the motives of every crossdresser...! There are those of us who see it the other way around; we already feel feminine - therefore we naturally gravitate to the sort of things that appeal to our feminine tastes! To us, femininity is a state of mind - how we dress is merely an optional expression of that.
Okay, this can be an outside expression too - matching what is inside to out... but my point still remains the same. We are challenging these gender boundries within society, but we crave them inside... ie: we want to wear what what we like, but we are wearing what the opposite sex should be wearing occording to society. This is a point about my dressing I have found the most puzzling, and the most frustrating. I don't wear heels, skirts, tops etc because I want freedom in clothing... I wear them to express my femininity and to be more feminine on the outside. So am I subverting and embracing society's rules? Or trying to break them?

Think about it. :)

[Lauren_T]

Okay, this can be an outside expression too - matching what is inside to out... but my point still remains the same. We are challenging these gender boundries within society, but we crave them inside... ie: we want to wear what what we like, but we are wearing what the opposite sex should be wearing occording to society. This is a point about my dressing I have found the most puzzling, and the most frustrating. I don't wear heels, skirts, tops etc because I want freedom in clothing... I wear them to express my femininity and to be more feminine on the outside. So am I subverting and embracing society's rules? Or trying to break them?

Think about it. :)Your point is well taken. I know that those who share my prefs are in the minority, that far more CDs wear women's clothing precisely because it's clothing that society has associated with women; I myself don't actually care whch gender it's "for," I enjoy what feels good and suits my sense of esthetics. So my criterion isn't "is this something women wear," it's "how's this subjectively feel and look?" And far more of the things that meet my criteria happen to be things made for women... or rather, 'made to appeal to feminine taste,' if you get my meaning... :thumbsup:

edit: A lot of CDs choose the things that women wear to please or attract men; I choose the things that women wear because they please the woman wearing them... that's more what I was trying to say...

[Rainbow6562005]

I envy women their relative freedom to experiment with colors and textures and accessories, with less fear of condemnation, compared with
what men would more likely face, if they experimented in a similar way.

That men or women who dare to not fill however their gender roles are defined... including what clothing is permitted... are leaned on or even killed I certainly do not deny: A woman wearing a man's suit or a man in a dress is in great danger in many parts of the U.S.

Rainbow

[MarinaTwelve200]

Maybe it all boils down to "Women can wear men's clothes as long as they still look feminine" and I would also believe the reverse is true, although there arn't many women's clothes that a man could wear and still look masculine....

Well the thing seems to be that the "masculine" clothes women most often wear are really WOMENS clothes---cut to fit them and only really just BASED on masculine clothing.----If they DO wear real masculine clothing, it is worn is a "special" way---like oversized men shirts, or can be worn by either sex--like a T shirt. Women who Do wear real masculine clothes, and in the masculine manner, ARE often looked at somewhat "funny" themselves.

As to a man wearing woman's clothing--the same rule would likely apply---The clothing may be BASED on a woman's garment or look like one , but if it is definately cut and made for a man, most people see no problem with it.---Thing is, that there are not very many clothes that fit that description---save for a Scotish KILT. No one would dare a think Scotsman in his kilt looked feminine.--Yes the Kilt looks like a skirt at first glance, but a close examination, of its buckles and panels, reveals that it is not really cut like a woman's skirt at all. And the Shirt(blouse), with the frills, looks "manly" too and is even seen on guys other than Scotsmen---giving them a "romantic" look---

Its just that today, there are few if any clothes for men that are re-cut versions of women's clothes.---as opposed to the situation for women. I really dont think women have any more social freedom to dress in REAL male garments than Men do to dress in real womens clothing. Womens pants ARE women's pants--even if they do look male.

[Georgette]

It's only in the last.. what, 50 years? If that, that girls could wear slacks to school. Jeans probably a bit more recently. Victorians tended to have fits of women in men's wear. Certainly the nobility and women at court didn't wear men's clothing in the renaissance, about the only time you DID get crossover was with field workers.

Yes it has been only in the last 50 or so years that women have emulated the male role, but it is also in th last 20 or 30 years that women have wanted to be the more masculine or dominat role.
I know quite a few women who like to wear the leathers and boots of a biker (no offense to you that have MCs) they take on the role of the tough guy yes guy and talk the talk and walk the walk, no I don't mean the lesibian, what I mean is the ones that have to be the male type dominanting person, these I feel are the ones that need to be this way to get attension to themselves or draw it away from them.
There I probably will get a lot of flack on this but I am free to express my opinion. :rolleyes: ;)

[Lisa Golightly]

Half the reason people look silly (when they do look silly) while wearing opposite gender clothes is because it's not designed for their body type, and thus doesn't fit right.

In my instance my hormones are so screwed women's clothes fit me better than mens. So although not designed for my biological sex they actually fit me better than those prescribed for me. Including knickers...

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I know quite a few women who like to wear the leathers and boots of a biker (no offense to you that have MCs) they take on the role of the tough guy yes guy and talk the talk and walk the walk, no I don't mean the lesibian, what I mean is the ones that have to be the male type dominanting person, these I feel are the ones that need to be this way to get attension to themselves or draw it away from them.

Well that's a good example of "unacknowledged CDing" by GGs that occurs because of society's greater flexibility in women's wear. The GGs involved probably don't think it as cross-dressing themselves, but rather expressing their "tough" side while still being women.

People do dress to express who how they feel or what mood their in. Because GGs can wear masculine styles with less chance of violating society's norms I think they're less self-aware that they're using clothing to express a "masculine" side -- as I said, they probably think it more in terms of specific attributes, such being "practical" or "tough" (or other personality traits that society views masculine.) It's a lot tougher for a man to wear something frilly without being aware that he's bending gender conventions.

The other reason why we're more self-conscious is that a when GG presents a masculine appearance it usually involves "taking away" -- i.e. cutting their hair short, not wearing make-up, etc. It can be a conscious decision against appearing feminine, or it can just be not wanting to put forth the effort. In contrast for a man to present as a women requires "adding" -- a wig for longer hair, putting on make-up, putting on forms. So it's hard not to be aware of what you're doing.

[Lauren_T]

My 200,000¥: Here in De Big City, there's no shortage of women taking jobs as mechanics, police officers, etc, traditional male roles; yet I can't remember the last time I heard anyone even remark upon the phenomenon!
But let a man be seen in a traditionally female public role, and it can get downright nasty... Of course, this place is notorious for it's worship of anything and everything macho!
While we still have human beings, we will have hypocrisy... :mad: