some venting about breasts

[sandra-leigh]

I have been working with a nice-looking early-30's woman at work. Today I glanced over at her in her sweater and realized that her breasts were a nice size and shape, and immediately I thought "Why can't I have breasts like that?" And then I realized that her sweater was scoop-necked and that she was showing some cleavage, especially if she leaned over, as she sometimes did. She wasn't "showing off for me", but such views Happen Sometimes. And I was torn between appreciation of the view, and envy.

*Sigh*.

Yeah, I've been on Spiro for 2 months now, but even half the regular intro dose makes me tired, and what development I had has reduced due to water loss. My gender therapist claims my face is getting rounder... maybe, but I haven't observed it myself. I think maybe I'm getting a bit impatient for A Sign.


I'm probably not the only one who gets frustrated at having to stiffle myself from asking women about their breast sizes and techniques for shaping a desired look, and about where to buy low-cut tops, and about the line between "looking good" and "showing too much", or about how to adjust what can be seen according to how comfortable you are with different individuals...

[Steph.TS]

I'm not on any hormones, and I get that envy too, and I would LOVE to get beauty tips from some of the women at work, but I don't dare say a thing. I just try to be friendly, and move on. I too work with a beautiful woman, and I wish I could look as nice as she does. all I can say is I'm going to therapy, I'm excited about my first session, and hope to move forward.

[Haley Heather]

well, if it's ay cancelation, I'm envious of your progress ...

[StaceyJane]

I've been on estrogen for a whole week now and still nothing...:(

But it's nice to think about. :)

[Kiera79]

I love women and how they carry themselves but I do not want to have tatas as big as them. I am happy with my B's.

[stacie]

I've been on estrogen for a whole week now and still nothing...:(

But it's nice to think about. :)

It take a few years for Hrt to make the changes. Your doctor would of told you this before they gave you any hormones for a gender change.

[Alicia Ryanne]

It take a few years for Hrt to make the changes. Your doctor would of told you this before they gave you any hormones for a gender change.

I believe she was just being a bit sarcastic. Any of us here know it takes some time for any method to work :)

[Alicia Ryanne]

I'm not on any hormones, and I get that envy too, and I would LOVE to get beauty tips from some of the women at work, but I don't dare say a thing. I just try to be friendly, and move on. I too work with a beautiful woman, and I wish I could look as nice as she does. all I can say is I'm going to therapy, I'm excited about my first session, and hope to move forward.

You have probably come across this already, but if not, have you considered the Flat 2 fem program? Its an herbal based solution to growing/enhancing breast size. I do not work for Lucille, but i have purchased the program and started with the cleavage cream recently. Id much rather be on HRT, but thats probably a year away for other reasons.

[sandra-leigh]

It take a few years for Hrt to make the changes.

We have had more than a couple of posters here indicating that they started having breast development about 6 weeks in. They were, though, on estrogen, which I (the original poster) am not (yet.) The things that are _noticable_ on me so far are the tiredness, and a level of ED more typical of someone who has been on full regime for 8+ months. I know things take time, but some kind of body development would make the tiredness easier to deal with. The tiredness isn't mental tiredness, by the way: the spiro is hitting my blood pressure considerably more strongly than is typical.



You have probably come across this already, but if not, have you considered the Flat 2 fem program?

The Flat2Broke program has been discussed from time to time in the past. I haven't read it myself (not even the pirated copy someone posted a link to), but I gather that the people here who have examined it from a medical viewpoint have indicated that you are far more likely to get sick or have no measurable improvement than you are to have the program work for you. :sad:

[Jorja]

I've been on estrogen for a whole week now and still nothing...:(

But it's nice to think about. :)

A whole week now and nothing????? :D

It would have been nice if HRT really did work that fast. Don't worry, you will be the proud owner of a lovely set of breast before you know it.

[noeleena]

Hi,Sandra.

Why spiro only & first , are you not on any thing else, Water loss have you got water retension & are you on other meds,
Oh well blood test in a month then, whats your read out say you are or were 3 months ago . if you know ,

...noeleena...

[Melody Moore]

Sandra, if you are expecting to see feminisation results such as breast development to be comparable to a
natal female from only taking an anti-androgen like Spironolactone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spironolactone), then I think you really are kidding yourself.

You really need to also be on Oestrogen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrogen) such as Estradiol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estradiol) for at least 6 months to start to see feminisation results.
Progesterone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone#Specific_uses) also helps with breast development and helps them to fill out and be more rounder from what I know.

Normal breast tissue cannot develop without both progesterone & oestrogen. Breast developed
without Progesterone have mammary gland tissue that is fibrotic. The breast are conical shape & have
immature areolas. Progesterone can change this even after years of inadequate hormone treatment.

Here are few things to be aware of about Hormone Therapy....

Our body's endocrine system manages sex hormones which are our building blocks. The body will
convert testosterone to Oestrogen, or Oestrogen to Testosterone if that i what your body needs. If
there is an excess of sex hormones the body will convert the hormones it doesn't want to Cholesterol.

If Testosterone production is not stopped with an anti-androgen then the endocrine system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_system) will try to
stabilise it to a healthy state for a male by trying to dispose of any unwanted Oestrogen as Cholesterol.
So using an anti-androgen is key to any really successful regime of hormone therapy, but to get the full
feminisation effects you probably desire, you also need these other sex hormones.

EDIT:

I should also add that taking a high dosage of Oestrogen will not make you feminise any faster, is all you
will do is overwork your liver as it disposes of the growth hormones it doesn't need & your will increase
your Cholesterol and run a greater risk of developing Cholecystitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholecystitis). This is also why your hormone levels
need to be monitored through regular blood tests to balance out the hormone levels to a healthy level
that is right for a natal female. Once your body is stabilised this is when you will feel the best and get the
best results from hormone therapy.

Options like herbal treatments such as Pueraria mirifica which contain phytoestrogens that are meant
to mimic the effects of natural Oestrogen etc., are not safe & affective is because these types of
treatments are not properly monitored and controlled in the same way proper hormone therapy is.
To start messing with your body's endocrine system is a dangerous game of Russian Roulette you
start playing and you put your health at great risk. So only go on hormone therapy under the proper
guidance and help of a suitably qualified doctor.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

sandra ...i'm too lazy to look at your older posts...are you doing HRT with any estogen??
It's true that if you only get rid of T, your body may actually not respond predictably ..

when i started HRT, the estrogen delivery was a total faill...i used a compounding cream and it seemed to work for 6 weeks, but over time my estrogen level went down!!!!!!!! ..i only bring this up to say that i was also taking spiro...
the result was my hair falling out...i craved salt as if it was a 100lb bar of gold, and sometimes i felt incredibly weak and tired (in fact alot) to the point i would have to sit down immediately or pass out..

once i got to the shots, the E was delivered well and my E levels went up and i felt fine

just sharing one experience...

[StaceyJane]

It take a few years for Hrt to make the changes. Your doctor would of told you this before they gave you any hormones for a gender change.

Oh my, I guess my sense of humor is too much for some people.
Yes, I know all about how long it takes for hormones to work. My doctor gave me a very good explaination of how long it takes and the risks.

Although, it's been a week and one day and still nothing!!!! :(

[Kaitlyn Michele]

just wait till tomorrow!!

if you are lucky you may start to feel some tingling/zapping in the near future..
also it's getting close to the time that you need to start looking out for edges around doors , especially car doors...those car door corners are like magnets to sensitive areas..

[Alice B]

I doubt that there is a member of this forum that does not appreciate the view of some nice clevage and for some there is more interest in the bra holding the product. In an ideal world (not in my lifetime) it would be great to have breasts and I would quickly get in line. But, my life style and the world in which I operate would never accept it, thus any hormones or surgery is out of the question. For me it will remain forms in side the bras and I will still look, enjoy the view and dream.

[Stephenie S]

Unhappy. Some venting about breasts

I have been working with a nice-looking early-30's woman at work. Today I glanced over at her in her sweater and realized that her breasts were a nice size and shape, and immediately I thought "Why can't I have breasts like that?" And then I realized that her sweater was scoop-necked and that she was showing some cleavage, especially if she leaned over, as she sometimes did. She wasn't "showing off for me", but such views Happen Sometimes. And I was torn between appreciation of the view, and envy.

Sandra, Sandra, Sandra.

Don't try to pull the wool over our eyes. You weren't "torn" at all. Your tongue was hanging out, dear. Admit it.

*Sigh*.

Yeah, I've been on Spiro for 2 months now, but even half the regular intro dose makes me tired, and what development I had has reduced due to water loss. My gender therapist claims my face is getting rounder... maybe, but I haven't observed it myself. I think maybe I'm getting a bit impatient for A Sign.

So, you are discovering that hormone therapy doesn't have that much physical effect on guys your age. I think I have said this very thing in the past. Quite a lot. Hormone therapy is a constant thing. It takes a long time. It happens over a period of YEARS, not months. If you continue on hormone therapy, in 5 or 6 years you will not be able to remember what you used to be like. But the changes will be nearly imperceptible to you. It happens SLOWLY.

And breast growth? Huh! You wish. Some respond very well to hormone therapy. They shout the loudest. But on average, at your age you will see very little. I don't know a TG woman who has not had or is dreaming about, a surgical BA.


I'm probably not the only one who gets frustrated at having to stiffle myself from asking women about their breast sizes and techniques for shaping a desired look, and about where to buy low-cut tops, and about the line between "looking good" and "showing too much", or about how to adjust what can be seen according to how comfortable you are with different individuals...

Whoa! Down girl. Asking women about their breast sizes is OTT, definitely. And asking about their techniques for breast shaping? Do you want to get smacked? Buy low-cut tops in the store. Easy. Go shopping. You already know the line between "looking good" and "looking trashy". Don't look trashy, period. You DON"T ask women about how comfy YOU are. Answer that question yourself. Smile and act nice is what my mother always said. Sometimes I can pull it off. Not always.


Stephie"

[sandra-leigh]

Sandra, Sandra, Sandra.

Don't try to pull the wool over our eyes. You weren't "torn" at all. Your tongue was hanging out, dear. Admit it.

LOL. No, I had my teeth clamped shut to avoid saying anything. I'm not sure, though... I think she might have been "teasing" me a little. Or maybe I just got lucky. :)

More response later...

[Melody Moore]

So, you are discovering that hormone therapy doesn't have that much physical effect on guys your age.
Hello?

Since when is only taking a testosterone blocker (anti-androgen) like Spironolactone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spironolactone),
even considered to be proper 'Hormone Therapy' for feminisation purposes?

I take 3 different medications as part of my hormone therapy regime for feminisation.

[Aprilrain]

Sandra have you considered Cypterone? I believe it is available in Canada ask your doctor. It has all the T lowering power of Spiro but doesnt affect your blood presure.

I hope your doctor puts you on some estrogen soon as it's not good to go for long periods of time with low T and no E.

[Inna]

What I have managed so far after HRT are these fine characteristics: loss of ability to drive my car within lanes, some difficulty with parallel parking and total loss of competitiveness when behind the wheel, and should I catch a flat, I ain't changing that, dirt behind my nails, no way I spent way to much to get them done :) I think I am well on my way to womanhood!

[ReineD]

I'm probably not the only one who gets frustrated at having to stiffle myself from asking women about their breast sizes and techniques for shaping a desired look, and about where to buy low-cut tops, and about the line between "looking good" and "showing too much", or about how to adjust what can be seen according to how comfortable you are with different individuals...

I'm sorry that things aren't progressing as fast as you would like. But, I can answer the questions above that you would like to ask women.

In terms of the techniques we use to shape our breasts, we just try on different bras underneath a sweater until we find one that produces a shape that we like. SAs can help point us in the right direction if we give them the initial desired criteria.

Next, low cut tops can be purchased in any department store. The Junior Miss sections will have more of them than the other departments. If you are looking for camis to wear under business suits, you can find these in the lingerie section.

Last, in terms of adjusting to control the amount of cleavage shown, I don't know anyone who does this. Once the bra and the top are on, they are generally unajustable (save for unbuttoning that next button if wearing a blouse), since our breasts don't shift locations. We simply put on different tops depending on the effect we want to produce.

[Jorja]

Last, in terms of adjusting to control the amount of cleavage shown, I don't know anyone who does this. Once the bra and the top are on, they are generally unajustable (save for unbuttoning that next button if wearing a blouse), since our breasts don't shift locations. We simply put on different tops depending on the effect we want to produce.

Hows that E.L.O. song go? OH, oh, oh, its magic you know :D

[Melody Moore]

I hope your doctor puts you on some estrogen soon as it's not good to go for long periods of time with low T and no E.

I totally agree without having a hormone like Oestrogen or Testosterone to keep repairing your body your health will
suffer along with your moods. So you will most likely have to make a decision real soon about which way you want to go.

[Tara Lutschich]

Hi Sandra,

Yes I share that desire to ask. I went back to college 2 years ago and in major dominated by women, 18-25. SO at least I get to see alot and pay close attention. So many times have breast, clothes, make up questions BUT male my age and their age, yikes, no questions. And learn mannerisms.... it's about 2 years till can start HRT when done here but unknown to my parents throwing me into the pool to learn to swim and 17 years as competitive swimmer gave me former large hard pecs now perfect for illusion breasts, though larger than some GG.

Envy for your progress.

[Stephenie S]

Hello?

Since when is only taking a testosterone blocker (anti-androgen) like Spironolactone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spironolactone),
even considered to be proper 'Hormone Therapy' for feminisation purposes?

I take 3 different medications as part of my hormone therapy regime for feminisation.

Good point, Melody.

Perhaps Sandra's doctor is playing it safe and starting her on Spiro alone to make sure she can tolerate the drug before moving on. It sounds like Sandra is having trouble already with the Spiro anyway.

Stephie

[Melody Moore]

Stephenie S,

No doubt that someone is playing it safe here, albeit Sandra herself or her doctor. I understood that it was more
of Sandra's own choice why she wanted to start just on Spiro. It is a well known fact that Spironolactone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spironolactone) is used
sometimes to help high blood pressure. I doubt from what I have read if oestrogen, especially in dermal patch form
would have any impact or adverse side affects on her health especially contributing to lowering her blood pressure.

If anything Oestrogen might actually help to off-set that type of a problem. Because oestrogen
is a steroid that has always been reported as a cause of raising the blood pressure, not lowering it.

I have been on hormone therapy for about 7 months and now I can really start to see some really noticeable
differences in my body, but I know I still have a long way to go to even come close to being like a natal female.
Personally I think if Sandra is comparing herself already after just 2 months of being in Spiro then she is kidding
herself if she expects to see feminisation affects after such a short time - especially without also using the other
hormones that she obviously needs to be on a the most effective regime of hormone therapy.

[Kathryn Martin]

For the most part I am essentially in agreement with what others have said. I would like to make two points however. Firstly, you cannot possibly expect any serious development within this 2 months period you have taken the hormones. If your gender therapist says your face is getting rounder then she/he is just herding you along to placate your impatience. On a full regimen of Spiro, Finesteride and Estradiol you would find at you stage some tingling and itching right underneath the nipple and aureola and maybe a touch of tenderness every once in a while. There would be 0 visible growth.

Secondly when it happens (growth) it will be in spurts. I am now 4.5 months on full Hormone therapy and I had a growth spurt about 4 weeks ago when almost overnight (within a week) my breasts noticeably started to project a little. My boobs are now visible no matter what I wear. The size of the structures inside my breasts that have grown are the usual size for a 14 year old girl at age 14, which on a six foot four person appears to be smaller that it is.

Just as a side comment, whomever your MD is in this process needs to have their head examined. What you are on is not a feminizing regimen but rather bloodpressure and BPH treatment. Is this an endocrinologist? pm me with your your dosages and I will pm you back with the evolution of my regimen etc.

[StaceyJane]

My doctor did put me on spiro alone for a month but that was because my BP was high. I was already taking BP medications and she though the spiro would help plus it would start the testosterone blocking.
After a month I went back, my BP was normal and she started me on estrogen.

It would seem that if you blocked the testosterone long enough without replacing it with estrogen that you would start to experience the symptoms of low testosterone.

[sandra-leigh]

Thanks for the various replies! I'm on my way out so I only have a couple of minutes now.

The regime so far has been what had been explained to me months ahead of time -- spiro alone first as an anti-androgen, and then add estrogen. My cholesterol levels were on the high side for starting estrogen so a period of adjusting cholesterol was advisable, something the spiro would also help with. Keeping me on spiro alone but with reduced dose instead of adding estrogen was due to my unusual sensitivity to spiro's blood pressure lowering: it's usually a good idea to control one variable at a time when experimenting with biochemistry.

Opps, taxi is here!

[Frances]

There is a lot of voodoo with the endocrine system. The body has to be fooled into thinking the changes are wanted and not an attack. As far as growth is concerned, any expectations can be dangerous. Mine grew a little bit (there are pictures in the Light Topic section), but then disappeared completely during the month off hormones for SRS. I am hoping to regain breast tissue, but a BA may be in my future. Anyone starting HRT to have anything other than a female hormonal system is heading for disaster. Plenty of cisgendered women have zero breasts.

[Melody Moore]

Anyone starting HRT to have anything other than a female hormonal system is heading for disaster.

The sex hormones Testosterone & Oestrogen are steroids which are the building blocks the body uses to repair
damaged and dying cells, without hormones our body cannot repair itself. Hormones keeps the heart, bones &
blood vessels healthy in additional to keeping the reproductive system fit.

Low hormones can also cause a low immune system and you can easily become less tolerant of colds & flues.
My doctor believes that low hormone levels has been something that seriously affected me for many years &
I was often put on steroids to help me get over illnesses and this has caused me to masculinise much more
than I ever would have done naturally. Photos showing me in my younger years show me to be younger and
androgynous in my appearance with a much more feminine frame (small arms & shoulders with a wider hip ratio).

The steroids I started taking at the age of 38 in 2001 because that is when I started to get really sick & they
caused hair loss & I bulked up with an incredible amount of muscle mass. I am sure they also caused my voice
to deepen more. Prior to this when I had a low immune system & hormone levels I also had erectile dysfunction
& low sperm production. There was several times throughout my life where I had naturally occurring surges in
female hormones which had significant feminisation affects. At the age of 31 was the first time I got sore breasts
and had some mild breast development. It was like my body was wanting to feminise itself but didn't have enough
of the resources it needed. The endocrine system really is a mysterious thing & if it is not balanced out properly
in either a male or female direction then you can run into real problems.