Late stages of transtion

[Katesback]

Hi there everyone.

Nearly all of the posts on this forum are early stage transition related posts. Rarely have I seen a post that is from someone that has progressed through the process to a great degree.

Today I got an email from one of the derby girls that I coach. A bit of back story is that when I started rollerderby I was working for the state doing HIV prevention targeting transgender people. This job put me in the spotlight as a professional trans woman and while I hated it I was at a stage in my life where I was willing to put my neck on the line to help.

At my own expense I made my derby name "Snip-Snip" and my number was -2. I did this because I thought it would help inspire trans people by showing that they can actually integrate into society.

As you might imagine the name is pretty telling and throughout the state of Florida I developed a reputation as a tough player but a nice person. I also was known as being different.

Today I am leaning and fighting with all I have in me to just be a woman. This is something that REALLY can only hapen after SRS and probably years after SRS to be exact. If you dont agree with me thats fine.

Below is the text from the email.

I'm at work now and can't post anything, but i can send you a message. Always looking for ways around the rules....giggle. I wanted to tell you that when you first started comeing to practices, before I hurt my leg. The stories quickly started flying about how you got your name and number, but no one ever said how nice you are. No one ever said how selfless you are about giving your time to help other people. No one ever told me what a great person you are. While i'm sure your life has is a very interesting story, you have arrived. To me you are who you are now. The right one will come along. Someone that shines as brightly as you do does not go unnoticed for long. BTW, that random kisser....Wow! You can't make this shit up. Anyway, have a great day. I'll be at the rink tonight.

These are the letters that hopefully you will get in the future. At the same time these are the letters that you hope someday will never happen.

Some of you think I am mean, unkind, and a host of other choice words. What you do not understand is that I am for people being happy. If it means someone needs to call you on this tranny crap and tell you to get on with living your life..... well thats me.

See girls from a mental health standpoint it is far better for you to make a decision and execute that decision. If it means remaing a boy thats fine (but dont complain about it). If it means transitioning then you had better be willing to put in 100% because if you dont you will remain in trannyland and I promise you trannyland is NOT the most healthy way to live.

If you are a woman then be a woman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sandra-leigh]

See girls from a mental health standpoint it is far better for you to make a decision and execute that decision. If it means remaing a boy thats fine (but dont complain about it). If it means transitioning then you had better be willing to put in 100% because if you dont you will remain in trannyland and I promise you trannyland is NOT the most healthy way to live.

If you are a woman then be a woman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rah, Rah, Motherhood, Apple Pie, American Trucks, and the Gender Binary.

[Stephenie S]

Thank you, Kate.

Stephie

[Zenith]

My take on "late transition"...being a woman isn't easy and it takes years of learning/integrating...and if it isn't who you truly are it will break you...relationships are one of the most challenging aspects even for even the cis-gendered...

[gretchen2]

Cool thanks Kate, you have given me somthing to look forward too.

[Inna]

One Trip, One-way ticket, No way to screw it up, pain for pain, joy for joy, it all comes together at the end, any one can fly, they just need to discover that they have wings!

[Rianna Humble]

If you are a woman then be a woman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buy all means be a woman, but try to be less of a bitch

[Stephenie S]

Geez, Rianna. Lighten up girl.

Calling someone a b*tch is not really very productive.

Stephie

[sandra-leigh]

Calling someone a b*tch is not really very productive.


Neither is telling someone that if you aren't willing to make it 100% of what you do in your life, then you shouldn't do it at all and you should sit down and shut up.


There was one girl I was following messages from, in another city. Once she made the decision she was going to transition (which she did without talking to any therapists), she didn't even wait for her first appointment with a counsellor before lying to the government and defrauding them ("defaud" means to obtain a thing of value by false pretenses) to get a new driver's license in her female name with the 'F' on her license. I guess she went after her transition 100% -- certainly there was no room left for her integrity. More than half of the mailing list then praised her for finding a way to get around The System That Was Unjustly Holding Her Back; the ones that thought her actions shameful and detrimental to others were attacked and made to feel unwelcome and some people said that those who didn't agree with the actions should be kicked out of the social club.

When it came time for my interviews, I said quite clearly that I refused to follow The Script, the "I've always known, I've wanted to be a girl since I was 4 years old!" Primary Transsexual read-from-the-teleprompter script that has to be followed to get even hormones in some places. One of the first things I said to the doctor was that "I do not know myself to be a transsexual at this time, and if that means that I can't have hormones, then I'd rather not have them."

I live my life according to my truths, and trying HRT and possibly going further is in accordance with my truth, something I need to do in order to live honestly with myself. I'm not going to give 100% to be female: I'm giving what I can to be ME, and being me doesn't include pushing aside everything else.

[Zenith]

Geez, Rianna. Lighten up girl.

Calling someone a b*tch is not really very productive.

Stephie

OMG Now I've seen everything...O_o

The fact is there is a huge learning curve to transition, and blasting someone for not knowing everything immediately isn't productive either...

[gretchen2]

I think it's refreshing that Kate is a little rough around the edges. Sometimes the politeness of this site can be offensive.

[Katesback]

This probably did not occur to some of you but if you are offended by what someone says on a website forum you are probably not going to be to successful in the big bad world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A thick skin is really important for a ts girl to have and hey if you are sensitive............. well your going to be eaten up in the real world.

Guess it does make sense for the sensitive people to remain in this virtual world.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I don't agree that you have to say nasty things to toughen somebody up..that's what i believe rhianna is saying..
but I have to say that the truth in Kate's statement's are spot on...i've met her, and she is a very caring and friendly person, she came over a thousand miles just to be with a friend during srs, and i'm glad we met..
even though she can be a B#$&

My take on late transition is only beginning...i agree with the concept that transition really starts after srs, and that it is very challenging and emotional part of the trip from living as a guy to as a woman..

yes, it would be great if we all started as tough as nails and let all the crap wash over our backs....that kind of emotional fearlessness is very helpful..but in my case, it was desperation that trumped my fear..and i simply had to find out by myself

It's a constructive thing to say that if you don't feel that confidence, or you don't feel that desperation, then the risk/reward equation is pretty nasty...
and i guess it's a reasonable arguement that if you can't take the heat on a message board, what are you gonna do when some a-hole gets in your face, or when you hear your "supportive" family member is making fun of you, or your children won't talk to you , or you lose your career (not just your job), or some guy says that you make him puke??..seriously these things have all happened to friends of mine..

one thing is certain..if you are ts..transition life after srs is fundamentally different...the gift you get is that you are now totally and completely free to live the life that was built into your head...anything short and you don't get that...

Prior to transition there are a million thoughts...after transition there is only time to get up, time to make the coffee..time to do my hair and makeup...time to... folks that get excited and say "god i wish i could do my hair and makeup"
are going to learn that living as a woman certainly includes those things, but actually doing them every day is now no more exciting than going out to get the mail...and i'm not kidding...and you have to be ready for the fact that you'll be thrust into a world that either partially shuns you (if you live as openly trans), or a world that you have no clue how to deal with (if you live blending as female)....what has fascinated and interested you over your life is gone...you are just there, and the relief from all the crazy thinking we do is so complete, that it felt to me like a huge whole in my mind, i can't even bring those thoughts into my mind, and i'm still figuring out what to do about it..it is so complete that the thought of changing gender's seems incomprehensible to me...how strange!!

the only way I could get to that place is by going 100%.....
I'm not telling the non transitioner how they feel, i'm telling them that having srs makes your life so fundamentally different that it's worth talking about them as fundamentally different things..

BTW....my own personal experience was that changing my name and getting ffs made my female life livable...i was quite ambivalent about srs...it didnt feel like a meaningful thing, but more like just something in the playbook that i needed to do..
I felt very guilty for a while prior to srs because i knew i was taking a medical risk and i have kids and family..did i really need this was a question in my mind??
i can report that i'm delighted i did it..and the support group around dr meltzers group all had the same feelings....post srs, my thought process, my brain just clicked into a different mode...kind of like what i mentioned above...
i realized that prior to srs, my mind was still going round and round...and having srs, just made it all stop..

but you have to be prepared as best you can for that new mode, and it's a very hard road to learn that just having all this surgery and hormones doesnt prepare you at all for life as a woman in the world..and nothing prepares you for permanently taking the risk to live everyday as a woman with no way back..

[sandra-leigh]

This probably did not occur to some of you but if you are offended by what someone says on a website forum you are probably not going to be to successful in the big bad world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Beat your kids. It's a rough world and they have to learn to deal with it."

[Stephenie S]

Sandra. What's wrong, sweetie. I didn't say anything about you or how you choose to live your life.

I just said that calling someone a b*tch is not very productive. If you don't agree with someone you can argue and debate them, or you can keep quiet. That's what USUALLY happens here. Debate. Disagreement.

But when we stoop to calling each other names, what possible good does it do?

Stephie

[Rianna Humble]

Geez, Rianna. Lighten up girl.

Calling someone a b*tch is not really very productive.

Stephie

I could have rehashed all of the behaviours that led me to that conclusion, for example telling people with half a century of truly supporting people that we are only play-acting, setting out to deliberately alienate people because she does not agree that there can be ways of doing things which differ from her way, or any of the multiple posts where she has already been called out over her hard-arsed attitude.

I do not doubt that some of the things that Kate says may contain some truth, the trouble is that her attitude drowns out her words and makes it extremely difficult for people to hear what she says.

[Katesback]

It's ok to saywhatever you wish Rianna, I mean REALLY. I am not concerned about alienateing myself from people that are not serious...really!

I realize that the overwelming majority of trans people live for years in trannyland and thats the sad truth. As I have said I am here for the VERY small few that are REALLY transsexual and serious. I am also here to help them become REAL women instead of trannies. If you or anyone else wants to be a tranny thats totally fine with me. I mean I support the right for a person to get a tattoo of a penis on thier face but then I also know they will have to live with the ramnifications of doing that.

[Nigella]

I lived my life in "trannyland", as I suspect did most of the TS's on this site. Does that mean that I am not a REAL woman? We all develop at differing rates but just because it took me nearly 50 years to accept that I was TS, makes me no less a REAL woman than the next TS. You have a clear distain, IMHO, of people who are not at your level of development or self acceptance.

It is precisely your attitude towards the Transvestite/Crossdressing side of the TG community that creats the "them and us" divide within our community.

[Stephenie S]

I could have rehashed all of the behaviours that led me to that conclusion, for example telling people with half a century of truly supporting people that we are only play-acting, setting out to deliberately alienate people because she does not agree that there can be ways of doing things which differ from her way, or any of the multiple posts where she has already been called out over her hard-arsed attitude.

I do not doubt that some of the things that Kate says may contain some truth, the trouble is that her attitude drowns out her words and makes it extremely difficult for people to hear what she says.

There, Rianna. That wasn't too hard was it?

Two whole sentences and not a single "b*tch" in either one.

And yet you got your point across very well. I understand just exactly why you are upset with Kate. You said that all just like a lady. I think that's what I meant. Stuff will always be said that we don't agree with. Stuff is always gonna be said that makes us POed. We gotta deal with it. I don't agree with you, but you did make yourself clear in a polite and intelligent way.

Thank you.

Stephie

[Haley Heather]

There is a lot to be said for delivery, unfortunately, victims of emotional and verbal abuse will never respond well to certain agressive tactics and in fact it could make for an emotional dissaster for them, and some emotional disasters can be fatal.

[Rianna Humble]

It's ok to saywhatever you wish Rianna, I mean REALLY. I am not concerned about alienateing myself from people that are not serious...really!

And THAT is the sort of supercilious comment that earned you the one word summing up in the first place. You know NOTHING of my life and understand even less than that.

As for whether I am serious, I have decades more experience of what constitutes serious support than your couple of years being - in your own words - a professional tranny.

You claim to want to be a woman and I applaud your ambition. One day you might even understand what that means.

[Jorja]

I was going to comment with my 20 + years of experience being a post op transwoman but it looks as though this is another good thread going down the drain. I will reserve my comments until later.

[pamela_a]

Kate. I appreciate, understand, and agree with most of your points. I do disagree with the premise it's reserved for being post-op though. I realize that SRS alleviates a major physical challenge but, in my experience, it has NOTHING to do with being a female. I've considered my transition fully completed since the day my name and gender marker were corrected and I've lived my life as such. Since that day I've no longer been a transsexual and I became a woman. I agree with much of Kaitlyn's posts regarding finally reaching the point where being/living as a female is completely natural and the only thing upon which you need to focus is the most difficult thing of all....Living. I concede there may be some things I don't about "living as a woman" but I'd also venture to guess that most women don't follow the "How To Be A Woman" rule book and just do what I do, live my life as I see fit and being the best person/female I can be.

[Persephone]

I was going to comment with my 20 + years of experience being a post op transwoman but it looks as though this is another good thread going down the drain. I will reserve my comments until later.

Amen. So much for a "truly supporting" community of women who at least tolerate, if not accept, differing points of view.

[docrobbysherry]

I disagree with Kate on a regular basis. A LOT of her comments r over the top and I think even in THIS post, she pats herself on the back a bit too much!:brolleyes:
(Of course, some mite say the same thing about mine!):o

However, I have the GREATEST respect for ANYONE who has walked on the moon! And, if they want to blow their own horn for having the guts to do it, they're CERTAINLY entitled!:thumbsup:

As far as I'm concerned, as a CD, u Kate, Julie, and the others here that have made LIFE ALTERING COMMITMENTS to live as women, u should ALL get awards for bravery!:love:

What u must go thru on a DAILY basis! Trying be who u r NOW, while dealing with unimaginable personal trials, both in your psyches and the real world! My heart goes out to u! And, I'm fairly sure ANYTHING negative said here will be nothing more than a few raindrops on your umbrellas!:)

[Katesback]

Like you and 1000s of pre-op girls I felt exactly the same way. I thought I had it all down and was good to go. Then about a month before SRS a Post-op girl told me transition was about to start. Of course you can guess I didnt agree with her. But after SRS... well I know she was right.

You cannot REALLY begin the journey of being a woman till you have that thing between your legs removed. Sure you can make great strides, but it is not POSSIBLE to really become a woman till after SRS. As with Rianna you can agree with me or not it is all cool, although I would suggest you ask other post-op girls and I bet the same statment comes about.

KAtie




Kate. I appreciate, understand, and agree with most of your points. I do disagree with the premise it's reserved for being post-op though. I realize that SRS alleviates a major physical challenge but, in my experience, it has NOTHING to do with being a female. I've considered my transition fully completed since the day my name and gender marker were corrected and I've lived my life as such. Since that day I've no longer been a transsexual and I became a woman. I agree with much of Kaitlyn's posts regarding finally reaching the point where being/living as a female is completely natural and the only thing upon which you need to focus is the most difficult thing of all....Living. I concede there may be some things I don't about "living as a woman" but I'd also venture to guess that most women don't follow the "How To Be A Woman" rule book and just do what I do, live my life as I see fit and being the best person/female I can be.

[Zenith]

Like you and 1000s of pre-op girls I felt exactly the same way. I thought I had it all down and was good to go. Then about a month before SRS a Post-op girl told me transition was about to start. Of course you can guess I didnt agree with her. But after SRS... well I know she was right.

You cannot REALLY begin the journey of being a woman till you have that thing between your legs removed. Sure you can make great strides, but it is not POSSIBLE to really become a woman till after SRS. As with Rianna you can agree with me or not it is all cool, although I would suggest you ask other post-op girls and I bet the same statment comes about.

KAtie

SRS is a one way journey that takes courage, and yes the enormity of it hits during life after surgery. But there you go again defining someone by what is between their legs. That's a big no-no and goes against trans people of all kinds, including post-ops. How can we argue that we are women (or men), are born in the wrong body, and need surgery if we define a gender by genitalia? Surgery eases our body image, makes life and relationships smoother, and makes greater intimacy possible. Doesn't define us though...

[AKAMichelle]

Like you and 1000s of pre-op girls I felt exactly the same way. I thought I had it all down and was good to go. Then about a month before SRS a Post-op girl told me transition was about to start. Of course you can guess I didnt agree with her. But after SRS... well I know she was right.

You cannot REALLY begin the journey of being a woman till you have that thing between your legs removed. Sure you can make great strides, but it is not POSSIBLE to really become a woman till after SRS. As with Rianna you can agree with me or not it is all cool, although I would suggest you ask other post-op girls and I bet the same statment comes about.

KAtie

While I don't know many who are post-op, I have to agree. RLE only prepares you for the first part of the journey. It isn't until you have no way to retreat that you find out the rest of the story of your transtion. GG's have had a lifetime of experiences to tell them how to deal with life, and TS are thrown right in the middle. They are forced to live like they know all of the answers while they are still learning.

P.S. I don't get offended by you Kate. You are just telling people the way it will be for them when they transition.

[lavistaa62]

I'd note that you can't be a bitch without first being a woman.
I'm glad you have wonderful friend like this IRL.

You have a ton of courage and the courage of honesty. Your comments are some of those I always seek out as you really speak from your heart.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the surgery matters...this cannot be denied...otherwise why would so many spend their life savings and take the risk of being in a long surgery (altho frankly it's not a very risky surgery medically if done correctly)

labels aside, it is difficult to understand from my point of view how a woman can stand living life with a penis, but at the same time i respect transfolk so much that i can't say anything except i hope you are happy with your decision and who cares whether somebody else defines you..you know your own truth, and hopefully you are living it..that's what being trans is all about imho

[Rianna Humble]

As with Rianna you can agree with me or not it is all cool, although I would suggest you ask other post-op girls and I bet the same statment comes about.

I venture to say that you are almost unique in considering that everyone in the world apart from you is not serious.

[divamissz]

I would comment, but I'm just a tranny and I can't possibly have a serious opinion.

[Katesback]

I said everyone in the world besides me is not serious? I am sorry but I think you need to take a deep breath and learn to deal with the VIRTUAL world because I have a feeling that the REAL world is something you have yet to tackle. If you are now going to say I said things that I did not your off the chain there. Perhaps they have tharapy for people that get upset over what people say over the internet? I mean really!!


I venture to say that you are almost unique in considering that everyone in the world apart from you is not serious.

[Aprilrain]

OK, so I've definitely read some things from Kate in the past that are a bit aggressive perhapes but personally nothing in this thread really bothers me. Every one is entitled to their own opinion. I do have a question for Kate though, first let me say that I have met one post op lady who shares Kate's sentiment about surgery. She was the moderator of my TS support group until she ruffled too many feathers there. She is also the most obsessively dedicated TS I've ever met meaning she has spent the last 4 or 5 years changing EVERYTHING she went back to all her old employers and had them change her records to read female. She was born in Californina so she was able to change her birth certificate, something I could not do even if I was inclined to, Ohio doesn't allow that. Anyway obviously not all post operative TS women feel this way, as Zenith has mentioned, so my question is what was it exactly about having the surgury that made you feel this way? I find it hard to believe that people would treat you differently because really who would know other than you your partner and your doctor? Assumably one would have been living 24/7 as a woman for at least a year so the cats already out of the bag, everyone knows and the social, family, and job damage has been done. A person can not at this point say "sorry eveyone i was just kidding lets go back to the way it was" Also At this point in transition you either pass well or you dont so you cant tell me that a surguy that noone can see makes any difference there. As several people have mentioned this is the point of no return which I get but again other than you who else is going to know? Let's say some one decided to go back to living as a man, at that point the hormones and breast augmentation will have done more visible "damage" than SRS. So for you what was it about SRS that changed things?

[Rianna Humble]

I said everyone in the world besides me is not serious?

Your stock reply to anyone who doesn't fall down and worship you is to accuse them of not being serious despite knowing nothing about the person and understanding less than that.

You constantly accuse me of not knowing what the real world is. Until you have experienced 1/10th of what I have, you will not have earned the right to make any judgement about me as a person.

I understand that you dislike the fact that I do not worship you - that much is plain in your words. Get over it and grow up.

[Stephenie S]

So, I guess I will weigh in here.

It's interesting to not be the evil one any longer. I had become used to being reviled here, and now here comes someone else to take up that title.

So. Is Kate right? Yes she is. Kate is right. You may not like the way she says it, but what she is saying is spot on.

Think about this for a minute. Kate is talking about being POST-OP. Are you post op? If not, then give her some credit for knowing what she is talking about.

I know perfectly well that saying that a pre-op TG woman is not a woman is heresy on this forum. Most pre-ops would agree. But Kate didn't SAY that. What she did say was that only AFTER SRS does the REAL job of becoming woman begin. This is a concept that is difficult to imagine when you are pre-op.

Wait, wait, you say. I have ALWAYS been a women. All my life I have known. Yes, you are right. But the difference between you as a pre-op women and you as a post-op women is impossible to imagine until you actually experience it. It is a REAL and PALPABLE difference.

Kate knows about this difference. She tried to tell you about it. Give her SOME credit for knowing what she is talking about.

Thank you for listening,

Stephie

[Katesback]

To answer the question about what is it like after SRS. It really cannot be easily put into words. I will say that all of a sudden that huge goal you fought for is accomplished and now you have to just go live life as a normal woman. Prior to SRS you ALWAYS have the cloud over you head that you are different (another reason an orcie is a cop out, or for the not to smart married TS girl).
When you are Pre op you really cannot date anyone (and post op it is hard for that matter but not like pre op) except freeks or other trans people. As I said you cannot understand it till you live it and my words are said to prepare you for after SRS.

As far as Rianna. Well I think I am just going to let her ramble adbout me and carry on with her accusations and crap. For me to respond to her anymore is really just for my own personal enjoyment and laughs and not really adding to the discussion.

[sandra-leigh]

I know a woman who has worked with homeless people for over 20 years -- worked in a soup kitchen, worked as a counselour, worked as an official advocate, authorized to represent them in court, got a second degree in the field, worked her way up through the ranks, is now in charge of a new assisted-living housing project designed to help homeless people break the cycle. But she has never actually been homeless herself.

I have never worked in a shelter or soup kitchen or housing project or the like, or used any resource like that. I was, though, homeless for a night, once.

So I know first-hand what it is like to be homeless, been there done that, whereas my friend has merely studied the subject from "outside".

It becomes immediately clear that my friend's opinions about homeless issues are "not serious", but that mine are. She just lives in social-worker-land, but I have actually lived as homeless. And if you haven't actually been homeless yourself... well, you just can't understand the depth and nuances of my transformative experience.


"... Oh, but two hours of pushing broom / buys an 8 by 12 by 4 bedroom."

[Melody Moore]

I have been following the dialogue here and have very hesitant up to the point to even comment on this thread. Just yesterday I
was talking with a post-op trans-friend on the phone and we were talking about what happens post surgery and one thing she was
warning me about was the 'black-hole' that many trans-girls fall into post-surgery. So I think Kate raises very valid points here in
saying there are issues that you will have to address and overome once you have reached this milestone and I don't think others
who are still pre-op can appreciate what those issues are about until then. I appreciate Kate's point of view a lot and this is not
about anyone falling down to their knees and worshipping her. I respect Kate because of her sometimes brutal, but open honesty.

There are some people here that like to beat around the bush and pander to political correctness, those that are full of a lot of hot
air and no action. There are sayers & doers in this world & the most successful in politics are those who really get the job done are
prepared to speak their minds & take action, not pander to the political correctness to appease the masses to win over a few friends
and acquaintances. Without straight shooters like Kate, I wouldn't know where I stood in this world & would feel a lot like a mushroom
being kept in the dark and fed on tons of bovine manufactured fertiliser. Maybe this is why at least one of you failed in politics. :heehee:

The topic of discussion is now being lost because some people here are now turning this topic of discussion
into a slag-fest, which is typical in politics. And it's these people that need to take their own advice and get
over it and grow up. I don't expect you to like me either. If you are on my friends list here & don't like what
I have had to say then by all means please feel free to remove yourselves, because I am well & truly over it.

[amielts]

The world out there is indeed tough. But this is a support forum, so I guess we should be nice to each other here, seeing that we are in the same boat.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I know a woman who has worked with homeless people for over 20 years -- worked in a soup kitchen, worked as a counselour, worked as an official advocate, authorized to represent them in court, got a second degree in the field, worked her way up through the ranks, is now in charge of a new assisted-living housing project designed to help homeless people break the cycle. But she has never actually been homeless herself.

I have never worked in a shelter or soup kitchen or housing project or the like, or used any resource like that. I was, though, homeless for a night, once.

So I know first-hand what it is like to be homeless, been there done that, whereas my friend has merely studied the subject from "outside".

It becomes immediately clear that my friend's opinions about homeless issues are "not serious", but that mine are. She just lives in social-worker-land, but I have actually lived as homeless. And if you haven't actually been homeless yourself... well, you just can't understand the depth and nuances of my transformative experience.


"... Oh, but two hours of pushing broom / buys an 8 by 12 by 4 bedroom."

?? apples and oranges imho

This would be an excellent analogy if the non homeless person was telling the homeless person how unhappy they were about having a home, when all they need to do is leave their home forever and become homeless..
when kate says someone is not serious, all she is saying that if you want to be homeless so bad..do it..

that's how i see Kate's point in a nutshell...frankly i don't totally agree with Kate's point, but you miss her point

[Katesback]

Well you met me in person. There is a county song that has the title line "little less talk and a lot more action". Well that about sums me up. Now I need to get off the computer and back on my trone, LOL.




?? apples and oranges imho

This would be an excellent analogy if the non homeless person was telling the homeless person how unhappy they were about having a home, when all they need to do is leave their home forever and become homeless..
when kate says someone is not serious, all she is saying that if you want to be homeless so bad..do it..

that's how i see Kate's point in a nutshell...frankly i don't totally agree with Kate's point, but you miss her point

[Haley Heather]

What I don’t under stand is why this topic is so inflammatory.

[Stephenie S]

Why is this topic so inflamatory?

Because pre-op transwomen DON'T like to be told they are not really women.

That's not what Kate said, of course, but that's the way many here HEARD her.

What Kate said was, "Only after SRS can the real work of becoming a woman start." Is this true? Yup, it's true.

This does not demean all those pre-op women out there. Not at all. Kate even mentioned that in one of her posts. But what it does point out is that there is a HUGE developmental step that happens after SRS which is VERY hard to explain to a pre-op transwoman.

Kate tried to explain it a bit in one of her final posts. I liken it to that "Claritin" commercial on TV where the fuzzy screen peels away to make everything "Claritin Clear".

Are you a woman pre-op? Of course you are. But there is another whole level waiting for you. It's an absolutely fantastic opportunity for you to become finally completely congruent and whole.

I know, I know. I can hear all the chorus of objections already. "No, no! I'm a whole woman now!" Yes dear. Yes, you are. But just you wait, hon. You have NO idea what awaits you on the other side.

As Kate already suggested, ask any post-op.

Stephie

[Stephenie S]

And I think it's "8X10 4 bit room" A "bit" = 25 cents. Remember "Shave and a haircut, two bits"? So a 4 bit room is a $1 room in a flop house.

Just showing my age here.

Stephie

[Haley Heather]

I guess maybe I don't understand what's so hard to understand about it. I see it in two 'basic' ways. The emotional satisfaction of finally feeling complete, the weight that must be lifted from ones shoulders is only something I can dream about as I make this post. The other way is even more basic, if you have a vagina then you know what it is like to have a vagina!

Or am I just a silly banana? I get that way sometimes.
:banana:

[Areyan]

oh, i see. so this was just a thread created to stick it to all the pre-op transsexuals here about how awful it is that they just dunno what it's like on the other side of SRS and boohoo for us? (tguys included, why not - we're in "trannyland" too apparently) haha. is it bully you trans girls, you dun have a CLUE what you're in for?

it's one thing sharing your rich experience as a post-op person, quite another to just use your knowledge to bully and laud it over others who are not at your level. gl, how negative. i think a lot of pre-ops KNOW their lives would change in some ways post-op but to be a tard about it and rub it in isn't progressive or cool imho.

[Sharon]

Whoa, whoa, bloody whoa!

I do not think it is bullying or lauding anything over anybody to write something about yourself and about something you have learned from experience. This IS a place where opinions are allowed and thoughts about experiences encouraged and appreciated. Kate was once pre-op and while her experiences at that stage may have been either positive or negative, all she is stating is that -- remember, this is her opinion! -- much more has been learned since her SRS.

I have been pre-op for 55 years and counting, and have been living full-time as a female for almost five years now. While I definitely consider myself female and nothing more or less than that, I cannot describe what is is to be post-op and what the differences are other than the obvious to the eye differences.

Lets not build walls here, okay?

[Areyan]

well, tact is a life skill katesback might try to use here about life post-op. perhaps more pre-ops would be encouraged by what she has to say if they weren't feeling so attacked by her method of delivery. this is meant to be a support forum, yes. not everyone has the same opinion, but we dun need holier-than-thou attitudes either.

[PortiaHoney]

Nearly all of the posts on this forum are early stage transition related posts. Rarely have I seen a post that is from someone that has progressed through the process to a great degree.

If you are a woman then be a woman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Judging by the majority of the responses you have received, you will understand the reasoning why many choose to leave this all behind. It is very emotive and most people just don't see the point of all the arguing, justification and explaining.

I used to agree that you could be a whole woman without surgery, but the further I progress into my transition (yes - I am still transitioning and not a "real" woman yet), the more I am realising that I really do need surgery to "feel" complete. This is not from outside pressures or the expectations of anyone else, but from within myself.

While very few suspect that I am not a "real" woman any more (unless they already know or have been told by others) - the pressure to be anatomically "correct" comes from the little useless piece of flesh that bugs me every time I get undressed, go to the toilet, have a shower or become intimate with someone.

The most important thing used to be being accepted by others as a woman. Until I have SRS, I have found I cannot totally accept myself as a woman.

Good on you Kate for the work you do. While in transition, I think it helps us to help others sort out the mess they find themselves in. There is always a certain amount of self help in helping others. But at what point in a successful transition do you have to leave "trannyland" behind in for us to completely accept ourselves as true women? Or are we destined to be stuck in this place between genders, just closer to the goal than where we started from?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

despite the back and forth this is a good topic..
Stephanie said it in a much more gentle way "that there is a another whole level"... It is the total and complete relief from "the feeling" that we all have that drives us to do crazy things to our lives..
a bottom line truth for us is that having this surgery has internal meaning that cannot be underestimated..when i see posts from people suffering from that major dysphoria i always think the same thing.."you need to do this"

the surgery can be so powerful that many us go into an extended period of mourning and sadness around it, almost a letdown...but then it slowly dawns on you that "you really are a woman"..since it's an internal feeling, and it has nothing at all to do with telling folks that haven't had the surgery that they aren't women...that was never said, altho i admit the comment that portia quotes can be taken that way..and it seems some people can achieve this feeling without the surgery

these ideas can challenge pre-op people in many ways...
and btw...the opposite comments from pre-op and part time people challenge me
...folks that proudly post of how they are not transitioning because of their families, or that they are sticking with their spouse and not transitioning, or because they have a great job that they won't give up make me feel bad...
i consistently support and applaud posts that talk about this because I know how fricking hard it is..
BUT i get a lump in my throat when someone says i didn't transition because of my daughter..well i guess i don't love my daughter enough to not transition...i guess i didn't love my wife enough...i guess i didn't care about making a living enough..

this is a complicated and emotional issue that has life altering impacts on us and those around us...if you get all emotional over these comments..well good!! think about how you feel , let yourself be open about EVERY SINGLE experience you read about here..regardless of the way it's said.. have you noticed that pretty much every post op person has said "you can hate the way she said it, but Kate is right"....this is really important to many of us, so i continue to post on the thread
Do you want a doctor with a nice bedside manner? or one that will cure you?

btw..we have similarly charged discussions about whether passing matters, about HRT for non transitioners, about third gender vs binary gender, and about stealth/open ts living...have you noticed that?
they get heated because of the importance of our decisions and when you read things about folks that took another course it goes directly to the heart of your own decisions...

[Melody Moore]

There are many pre-op girls here that think that GRS is the final milestone when it isn't and that I think was
the main point that Kate was alluding to. I don't think for one moment that Kate was lauding it over others
here. I am sure that some people here on this forum were motty cottled all their life and grew up wrapped in
cotton wool the way they take offence to just about everything you say if you don't sugar coat it for them.

I have been living full-time now for about 9 months and on hormones about 8 months and my transitioning is
going really smoothly because I am happy, confident & extremely strong. So I don't know what transitioning
is like while having emotional issues other have because I dealt with my issues before I started my journey.

But the best thing that has helped me is having a thick skin & by not caring about what other people think.
I have had a couple of instances where some idiot has tried to offend me that I am sure would have offended
other girls here, and maybe even sent them scurrying home while bawling their eyes out. I refuse to let others
make me feel bad regardless and I think this is why I feel very confident that I will survive this difficult journey.

So in the words of Mark 'Chopper' Read, I think people here need to 'harden the f**k up' if you
are to survive transitioning & survive in this world. As they say, "If you can't stand the heat?
then get the hell out of the kitchen". Transitioning certainly isn't for everyone who is transgendered.

[Rianna Humble]

despite the back and forth this is a good topic..
Stephanie said it in a much more gentle way "that there is a another whole level"...
...
have you noticed that pretty much every post op person has said "you can hate the way she said it, but Kate is right"
...
Do you want a doctor with a nice bedside manner? or one that will cure you?

I want a doctor that will cure me without telling me that I don't live in the real world and that it is my own stupid fault that I am in this position to start with so I might just as well go away and not waste her time.

A good illustration of how a different attitude can make a great deal of difference comes from when my late mother entered the terminal stage of her condition. The consultant in charge explained to my mother, my father and myself that we were entering the finalstages and outlined what would be done to minimise my mother's suffering. The staff nurse on the ward greeted her with "You've come in here to die and nothing your family can say will change that!". Guess whose attitude uplifted and whose destroyed. yet they both said that there was no way my mother would survive.

I have decades of experience with having to tell people difficult truths, but what I tell them is accepted because my attitude does not blind them to the truth of what I am saying.

I also have an equal amount of experience of having to tell people again the same thing that a colleague tried to say. The difference that is usually mentioned to me is that the colleague said it in a manner that came across as overbearing and condemnatory so the client could not hear the truth of what they were being told.

I have never doubted that on the few occasions when Kate tries to be helpful then there are some truths hidden behind her attitude. Trouble is, her attitude is like that of the staff nurse in my illustration.

[Katesback]

For those that say I am brash and should be more politically correct and "support" them.

I got news for you. The word support used in the trans community often means perpetuating disfunction. I have seen people sit around and support each others 15 year transition. I have seen people support someone plainning transition for three years. I have seen people support a someone that feels they are ts and is 68 years old without the money to transition.

Spare me the statment that everyone has to move at thier own pace and that everyones story is unique. The reality is that ALL of our stories are the same. We have to overcome a fear and move on. I dont need to hear your story because its always the same! If someone has been transitioning for 15 years that means they they lost 10 years of normal life. If you are a woman then be a woman, I am sure you remember that statment.
Now if you want to be a gender F--K thats fine but then I am not here to help those people.

You want flully rabbits and rainbows go to your therapist (for $100+hr. they are going to be politically correct), I am going to take the stance that the real world feels and that is to make a decision and execute it. I am going to call you or anyone on BS. I have seen too much disfunction in the trans community to not be brash.

Sometimes there are posts from girls that say "why dont the post op girls come here". I got news for you they have moved on for the most part and want nothing to do with the disfunction. They get tired of telling reality to people that get upset and attack them and make up crap like being post op means they feel superior.

I have said it before and will say it again. Being Post op does not mean you are better for I have met my share of basketcases that were post op. What it means is that the door to a normal life opened for many post op girls but NOT all.

A recap. I am not here to make friends (for my friends are GG women that play rollerderby). I am here to help to VERY small few TS girls that are serious and fighting to move through transition and onto a normal life!

Yes being in trannyland is often not healthy. You end up "supporting" (perpetuating disfunction) each other.

Katie

P.S. If you are offended by something someone says on a message board you arent ready for the real world because you will be torn up to shreads. Another little cue as to why I am brash here, perhaps the lightbuld went off for some.

[Eve_WA]

Some of you think I am mean, unkind, and a host of other choice words. What you do not understand is that I am for people being happy. If it means someone needs to call you on this tranny crap and tell you to get on with living your life..... well thats me.

See girls from a mental health standpoint it is far better for you to make a decision and execute that decision. If it means remaing a boy thats fine (but dont complain about it). If it means transitioning then you had better be willing to put in 100% because if you dont you will remain in trannyland and I promise you trannyland is NOT the most healthy way to live.


Kate,

If your trying to be helpful, then why fill your posts with derisive, abusive, and demeaning language? I personally get the feeling that you talk down to anyone that hadn't had SRS.

There are some here that don't have the means, desire, or ability to have this done. Its terms like these that make us feel you are talking down to them, and that somehow you are better than they.

I understand the message that you are trying to convey. But when you use language like that above, your message gets lost. It makes you just sound mean, and condescending. Certainly not language for a support forum, IMO.

Eve

[Katesback]

I am going to specifically respond to one thing you said and the rest is your call.

You said some dont have the means or ability to have SRS done. That is understable if it is true. Now if someone does not have the desire, thats is a different story. That person is NOT TS. I am sorry but they just are not TS. They might trans something but NOT TS. Girls do not have penises and if someone tells me they want to be a girl with a penis.......................



Kate,

If your trying to be helpful, then why fill your posts with derisive, abusive, and demeaning language? I personally get the feeling that you talk down to anyone that hadn't had SRS.

There are some here that don't have the means, desire, or ability to have this done. Its terms like these that make us feel you are talking down to them, and that somehow you are better than they.

I understand the message that you are trying to convey. But when you use language like that above, your message gets lost. It makes you just sound mean, and condescending. Certainly not language for a support forum, IMO.

Eve

[Melody Moore]

Kate,

If your trying to be helpful, then why fill your posts with derisive, abusive, and demeaning language? I personally get the feeling that you talk down to anyone that hadn't had SRS.

There are some here that don't have the means, desire, or ability to have this done. Its terms like these that make us feel you are talking down to them, and that somehow you are better than they.

I understand the message that you are trying to convey. But when you use language like that above, your message gets lost. It makes you just sound mean, and condescending. Certainly not language for a support forum, IMO.

Eve
You are probably going to think this sounds mean, and condescending, but here are a few facts of life for you to consider.

You are very wrong about Kate, I am a pre-op Transsexual who transitioning to become fully female & Kate & I are friends off this website because we both have a similar understanding and outlook with regards to transitioning. Another good friend of mine (Stephanie Anne (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?149424-So-long)) also another straight shooter who quit this forum recently because of the political correctness & crap that goes on here & she was a valuable member who contributed a lot to this forum. There have been others that have also quit recently and I wonder what their real reason for leaving was?

For some weird reason we are also expected to be supportive of cross-dressers who have transvestic fetishism, but the truth is I don't have a clue about how to support such a person, I don't understand them, and to be honest I really don't want to know them. I also know they are not welcome in my local transsexual support group. And 'No' that isn't my personal rule, that is a rule set-out by others who started the support group. If someone else we might meet is confused about where they fit in the transgender spectrum, then we are instructed to have them contact the team at Cairns Sexual Health Services. We are not to take matters into our own hands and bring them into the groups events because of security & safety concerns. I also believe that one of our local TS girls was raped by a cross-dresser.

The transsexual community in Australia is really distancing itself from the cross-dressing community and I can see why. CDers don't understand us. Just like many gay guys & CDers have a hard time understanding why we want to get rid of our 'manhood', the same as we don't understand them when they want breasts but want to keep their 'manhood' or why they are gay. MtF cross-dressers are cross-dressing when they put female clothes on, whereas I feel that I am cross-dressing when I put male clothes on, not the other way around. And these are a couple of examples why I very rarely ever post on the CD section on this forum - we really are that different that we are two worlds apart. Although I am a committee member of an LGBTI community & tolerate others, I cannot say that I understand them all because identify solely as a transsexual lesbian female & NOT a transgendered heterosexual man.

So I am not a tranny & I certainly don't want to stay in trannyland. However because I am still in my earlier transitional stages of my journey I am using my status to help others understand & learn more transsexuality as both an advocate & activist because that is what I know best. But there will come a time in my future after my GRS where I will just want to relax and fully adapt into my new gender role. In the meantime I will do my bit to help the community that helped me. I am grateful for people like Kate being here and I agree totally with her in that the word 'support' is used far too often in the trans community often means perpetuating dysfunction.

If all the people who have the balls to stand up and tell it how it really is being
transsexual leave this forum, then what is the point of even being a member here?

[Byanca]

I lived my life in "trannyland", as I suspect did most of the TS's on this site. Does that mean that I am not a REAL woman?
Of course you are a real woman. You are just born slightly wrong, nature isn't excactly perfect. Or those who beleave in God or whatever. God is just as flawed as everyone else.

If SRS is the only way, what about the extra rib? Isn't that a male 'gift' too? Will it have to go, what other things have not been mentioned? Big nose is a male feature. What else?

[Felicity71]

I respect your right to be harsh and to say what you believe in. Someone else who considers you not a woman yet who may state "A woman naturally has a man as a partner. To do otherwise is as unnatural as a woman with a penis" or how about "You are not a woman unless you have XX chromosones, therefore you should be having gene therapy as soon as it is available." or "Your not a woman unless you have ovaries and a womb emplanted"
I dont care as much as i used to what people consider me. Im human if that counts. I live a life, I have friends, family, a house, and a job.
I am going to specifically respond to one thing you said and the rest is your call.

You said some dont have the means or ability to have SRS done. That is understable if it is true. Now if someone does not have the desire, thats is a different story. That person is NOT TS. I am sorry but they just are not TS. They might trans something but NOT TS. Girls do not have penises and if someone tells me they want to be a girl with a penis.......................

[sandra-leigh]

You said some dont have the means or ability to have SRS done. That is understable if it is true. Now if someone does not have the desire, thats is a different story. That person is NOT TS. I am sorry but they just are not TS. They might trans something but NOT TS. Girls do not have penises and if someone tells me they want to be a girl with a penis.......................

I question Kate's basis for writing such statements in the form of fact rather than of opinion. If evidence has been presented that Kate has post-graduate professional training in gender identity matters , then I did not happen to see that evidence and would appreciate having it pointed out.


I found an interesting article by Laura Seabrook (http://hunter.apana.org.au/~gallae/QueerStuff/tiresiasfactor/rightofreply.htm)


The purpose of gender transition is not to produce gender stereotypical people, but to enable a person to more fully realise themselves in the gender they perceive themselves to be, to become more fulfilled as themselves, rather than people who don't fit the gender roles ascribed to them at birth.

Kate's prescription to those who are unwilling or unable to "give 100%" to being a "woman" (i.e., don't even start and don't complain) is at odds with the idea that people act towards self-realization, as self-realization does not necessarily end in 100% woman.


"You are transgendered" is you have a gender that doesn't match the one you were given at birth. [...]
Now one is transsexual if your own body image doesn't match the sex of your body. This is slightly different from being transgendered, which is a general blanket term used to describe people whose genders don't fit societies expectations. Body image is personal and not so obvious to an outside observer.

"Body image is personal." The implications are that someone might have a body image that does not require SRS and yet still be transsexual according to the definition of those two psychologists (including one who works at a Gender Identity Center.)


Alexander Murray, in a recent issue of "Venereology" suggests that there are three types of attitudes within societies and individuals as regards transgender issues:

PRE-TRANSSEXUAL
This is a model of gender as categorical, discrete, and dualistic. Within this model masculine and feminine are separate and unambiguous. In such an attitude, it is considered impossible to move from one category to another.

PRO-TRANSSEXUAL
This allows for regulated movement between gender poles. Gender crossers are generally expected to possess innate physical and behavioural characteristics similar to the target gender and make efforts to change characteristics that are dissimilar.

POST-TRANSSEXUAL
These express a model of gender as dimensional and fluid and allow individuals relative freedom to find their own place along the spectrum of gender and to experiment with different places at different times.

It appears to me that Kate's statements are consistent with the "PRO-TRANSSEXUAL" category, but I have yet to encounter anything in what she has written that would be consistent with "POST-TRANSSEXUAL" ideas: instead I am having difficulty in finding her statements as being anything other than an implicit refutation of even the possibility that there might be some truth to the "post-transsexual" viewpoint.


I also found a relevant passage in an article by Wilson and Hammond (http://www.gidreform.org/kwawp96.html) "Myth, Stereotype, and Cross-Gender Identity in the DSM-IV",


Most transsexuals do not necessarily hate their genitals [Bornstein94, Bolin88]

The references are to Bornstein's "Gender Outlaw" and to Bolin's "In Search of Eve". Unfortunately I do not have copies of either of those from which to cite original wording or to cite relevant research.

This was an article in which I found citations of that information; I found a number of other articles that expressed the same idea but without citations. This article, though, points out that although Harry Benjamin's original classification of transsexual did not require SRS or hatred of one's genitals, that earlier versions of the DSM (e.g., DSM-III) included that criteria, and thus that it became part of the "script": that before if one wished to be classified as transsexual that one had to profess hatred of one's genitals or else one would be refused treatment.

[kellycan27]

I won't argue with Kate, but i will add a different prospective, as an 8 month post-op.. yup post-op. I don't believe that you can't experience what it truly is to be a woman until after SRS. I think that there are a lot of variables that need be taken into consideration. First and formost being your level of comfort with your person.... self acceptance. Society's acceptance is also a biggy. I am not talking about society's acceptance of transsexuals as a whole, but more the acceptance that you receicve in your little peice of the world. If people accept and treat you as a woman, then it's possible to experience just that..what it's like to be a woman. if you are constantly aware of what's in your panties, or constantly looking over your shoulder for those who would not be accepting, you're going to have problems. Nobody but you knows what plumbing you have, but you. if you can't see past your genitals... good luck! maybe some post op girls needed that vagina so that they could feel better about themselves. Maybe these are the women who have to have it in order that they feel complete? perhaps it is their cross to bare in their struggle to accept themselves. I think it was the Eagles who said.. "We are all just prisoners of our own device". Maybe "you" couldn't experience the joys of being a woman until you had SRS... Please don't lump in in with you, because I have been able to experience this for quite some time even before being post. That being said, I will agree that having a vagina is pretty darn nice, but it didn't take SRS to define, or let me experience what it's like to truly be a woman. Just my two cents, I'll go back to lurking now..peace out!
kelly

[Dawn D.]

katesback said:


Prior to SRS you ALWAYS have the cloud over you head that you are different (another reason an orcie is a cop out, or for the not to smart married TS girl

Before, I jump in with more than two cents worth; Kate, can you expand upon the highlighted portion of the above referenced comment?

I think I have some comments on this thread, however, I wish to know the persons intent of a comment before making an jackas$ out of myself. Heck, it might happen anyway, but, at least I'll have made as careful an interpretation as I can

Thanks,

Dawn

[Dawn D.]

Okay, I'm just going to jump into the mire anyway. My apologies to everyone upfront. I had no idea that my thoughts would ramble as they have. But, I think this response represents what my true feelings finally are.

Trannyland (I like that. It sounds like it would make a nice amusement park). Trannydom, transreality, transworld, whatever your term, it represents serious challenges, obstacles and I have to agree to a point with Kate, a dysfunctional dead end.

There seems to be a push in recent history to get those who really consider themselves to be, and know within themselves that they really are transsexual; to move on. That somehow there is a significant difference between being transgender (with all that the spectrum represents), and being transexual. I had a term for this type of individual. I called them H. B./S.'ers. The B and the S did not stand for Benjamin and Syndrome, either. I looked at them and wondered, why is it that you formulate an opinion that appears to paint you as 'superior' to the rest of us that are comfortable under the transgender umbrella? Why is that so?

As many of you might know, I have been living as my true self for the past two years. I am not going to say whether or not I have had surgery. It's not open for debate and it's not anyone's business but mine and my wife's. I am, and my wife is also that kind of a private person. Not even my children know if I have, or not. After all, nobody but my wife ever knew I actually had a penis either (well, save for my mother when I was born and as a young child). I was one of those who would NEVER take a shower after gym class in high school. So, none of my classmates knew. If no one knows that I had a penis, why should I let them know whether or not I have a vagina?

Really, I don't think all of that matters much to the issue at hand here in the OP's original post. Yet, I think it might in fact have given me a notion of what Kate is talking about. And, it may have cleared my vision enough for me to realize that living your life standing under that umbrella of "Trannyland" is in fact a dysfunctional lifestyle. BIG disclaimer coming!

Disclaimer:

My use of the term "lifestyle" only refers to the very real and (I feel), very destructive activities that are in fact a part of the transgender communities perceived iconic image. Not that this is only limited to the "transgender community", but that it is more focused upon this particular community from the more "normative" binary world in which we all (and, some of us hate) do live. Now, not all of us get involved in that 'underground' lifestyle. Yet, it's an image that is hard to escape from even if you're not involved in it.

Moving on. The real lifestyle of the transgender community is more than the previously mentioned iconic image. It also represents a commitment. A commitment to a movement. A political movement. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. However, does that really represent what a person, who knows themselves to be a woman, and is living a womans life, yet has a transexual past; does it represent you? It took me a long time to answer this in my own life. I have been involved in the transgender political movement for a several years now. At first my involvement was very marginal. Later it developed into being even more involved. You do get drawn in.

I was the Council chairperson for a local advocacy group. We did some really good things under the auspices of the original purview for which the council was formed. That being healthcare access for the transgender community in our local area. I worked with some really great people. I still admire them all. I recently resigned my post on this council. There are several reasons. One of which (most importantly) is that, the involvement of myself in such a position placed me and my family in a precariously damaging position economically. I own a business in this area. That business has suffered partially as a result of my visually open involvement. Secondarily, it has suffered simply because of the overall local economy including my own lack of focus. But still, the biggest reason that my business has suffered is that I let my, being trans, become a focal point for my competition. That iconic image thing that I described in my disclaimer. Whether or not I was (which I have never been) engaged in the activities that we are believed to all be involved in. It made no difference that I was not involved. I'll now carry that baggage with me as long as I am still living in this town simply because I am seen as transgender and a part of "that community". It's truly a struggle.

But, I survive. I will survive. Though, I have now removed myself from the transgender community, that image will follow me forever, I fear. Reflecting on all of this over the past six months or so, has brought me to understand that I am not a part of the transgender community. I do not belong in it. I am a woman first and a woman with a transexual past only secondarily. I live and enjoy the trappings of being a woman. When out in the "world", no one even guesses that I have this past history (if they have not previously known me). If they do have question, it is never brought to my attention, and I like it that way! Being treated with the respect a woman should be treated is a wonderful and fulfilling experience. My life has been liberated once again. No longer do I consider myself a part of the "transgender community", just as I dislodged the idea that I was male several years prior to this same association.

As much as I despised the notion a while back that these people (the H.B./S.er's) somehow held that there was a difference in being transexual as opposed to being transgender, I now find that to a degree they are right! Although, it's not about superiority or de-legitimization over, or, of the transgender community. It's simply about being yourself, as yourself.

I don't know if any of this is what Kate was referring to, or not. But, I do feel that at some point one who is transexual does need to recognize that it is who you are. And, that it is different than being transgender. It doesn't mean you're better, it just means you're different and being that you are different means that you will move in a different direction. That being, one of a woman. Or, a man if you are of the opposite sex.

I still have the same compassion for the transgender community's plight nationally and internationally. I will continue to support them on the issues that I think and feel are legitimate and of a good, sound social need for equality. However, I won't be an activist member of their groups or organizations any longer. Finally, I will admit as I had to that I was not a male, I am not transgender. I am a woman. And, that is the way my life is being lived. It's wonderful!


Dawn

[Rianna Humble]

The real lifestyle of the transgender community is more than the previously mentioned iconic image. It also represents a commitment. A commitment to a movement. A political movement. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. However, does that really represent what a person, who knows themselves to be a woman, and is living a womans life, yet has a transexual past; does it represent you?

...

I still have the same compassion for the transgender community's plight nationally and internationally. I will continue to support them on the issues that I think and feel are legitimate and of a good, sound social need for equality. However, I won't be an activist member of their groups or organizations any longer. Finally, I will admit as I had to that I was not a male, I am not transgender. I am a woman. And, that is the way my life is being lived. It's wonderful!

Dawn, thank you for those thoughts, but I'm sorry to say that it seems to me as if you have been suckered into Kate's negative thinking.

At various times in my recent past, I have been an effective advocate (judged by other people's standards) for:
* the right of gay marriage - without becoming part of a gay couple
* the rights of third world farmers to earn enough not to have to choose between feeding their family or growing their crops - without that making me a third world farmer
* the rights of various local religious groups - without that making me religious
* better integration for local ethnic groups - without that changing my ethnicity
and numerous other causes without at any time that making me the beneficiary of such advocacy

What I am trying to say is that advocacy for transgender human rights does not make you any less of a woman.

I am sorry that your commercial opponents used your advocacy to damage your business and your family both of which must necessarily be the highest priorities in your life, but please don't get suckered into the phony argument that you cannot live your life as a woman and still be actively involved in furthering rights for the transgender community.

In this country last century, there was a woman who became the symbol for the campaign to get votes for women - Emmeline Pankhurst - and yes, some of her opponents tarred her unfairly with the epithet of a woman who was more interested in politics than in her family, but I believe if she was alive today, she would be spinning in her grave at the suggestion that you cannot be a real woman and be an activist for human rights.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

After my srs, the idea of living outside of the gender binary became totally unappealing to me...

Advocacy for trans rights doesn't make you less a woman...but if you do it as a trans woman, you are explicitly placing yourself on the outside...over time perhaps being on the outside of the gender binary will not have so much baggage...it may be totally accepted...but it will still be on the outside...the vast majority of the world views themselves as either male or female..

It's not about being suckered....choosing to fit into my place in the gender binary is not being suckered at all...when you say it like that , it's like i'm doing something wrong, like i havent fully considered it.....
i'm not ashamed of fitting in as a woman in the same way that a gender queer person shouldn't be ashamed of standing out..i'm not gender queer, i'm not a third sex..

It's interesting to note that sooooo many post operative women choose not just to live in a role of a female, but they try everything possible to leave their transness in the past....
i can relate to that, and its not because i'm afraid or ashamed or wimping out... post surgery, i don't feel like i'm transanything anymore.....its just the way it is..

[Dawn D.]

Rianna,

Hello, and thank you for your thoughts. I'd like to also thank you for all the work you do as a advocate on the issues that mean so much to you. That takes some very well intentioned efforts and determination, for sure. Having people stand up and help others that need a stronger voice than the one they own is always advantageous and a benefit to the cause one is concerned over.

I can appreciate your position that one can do these things and still maintain the desired image of who you really are. Letting the perceptions of others looking from the outside in, to have an impact upon that image who you represent is really something that should not be allowed to cause you to withdraw. Though, it does happen. Call it a character flaw on my part, if one must. I can accept that. Yet, it is a decision that was totally the right thing for me to do. There remains still, as I mentioned a belief and a conviction that the "community" will have my support for the efforts I see as something I can support. Though (at least foresee-ably for now), it will only be as an advocate and not from the front lines as an activist. And, I know there are others who will say, "there's no difference between being an advocate and being an activist". But, there really is a difference.

I do agree with your assertion,


What I am trying to say is that advocacy for transgender human rights does not make you any less of a woman.

I make no assessments that you cannot be both a woman and an advocate/activist. I simply believe two things concerning this issue. There is a difference between being transexual and being transgender. Also, there does come a time as a transexual (at least for some of us) that one must move on, and live the life of the woman, or man you are.

Negative? No, I don't buy into negativity. I like only positives things in life. If one looks, it wasn't said that I completely agree with Kate's premise. Only partially. There is a lot of validity to the idea that being transexual is not the same as being transgender. Yet, we (transexuals) do experience, to a large degree some of the same stereotype and discrimination that is placed upon and directed toward transgender people. Which BTW, can offer credence as a good reason to stay engaged in the community. Though, that is only one reason. Those discrimination and stereotypical actions usually only occur when we are 'known' as being transexual. Thus, misidentified as being part of the transgender community. Most of the time though, we can live our lives day to day without these denigrating experiences darkening our minds, or causing depressive psyches to develop. That's where a more healthy living style begins to happen. At least in my estimation. I think this shows positivity.

What I saw as negative in Kate's original post was a connotation ( and, I do not mean to put words in her mouth if in fact this was not her original meaning). A connotation that you have to have had SRS and that somehow, you can't understand what it's truly like being a woman until you do. To be fair, I'd like to interject that this premise should be expanded to include the gentlemen also. However, I do not agree with her on this point of necessity to qualify one as a woman (or man). It took a while for some who knew me prior to coming out and transition to treat me as a woman would like to be treated. Or, to make allowance for me to enjoy my life from the perspective of being a woman. Yet, it did happen. Not long after I started transitioning I had one person who asked me whether or not I have "gone all the way" meaning whether or not I had, had "the" operation. My response was simply "I'm done". Now, he didn't know whether I meant I had or whether I meant the conversation was over. When he asked about that, my response was and is, "yes". A rather bewildered sense of acceptance was expressed from him after that exchange. Since that time, he will hold the door open for me, refer to me as she, and her. He simply now sees me as a woman. What I've seen is that when you remove the questioning of who you are as a person, woman or man, you're treated accordingly. It's not misleading either, it's simply none of their damn business. We're not having sex, and you're not going to know (speaking metaphorically).

Again, Rianna, This is what I had to do for me. It is the realization that has come to me. And, because of it life is working better for me. Who knows, there may come a day when I can be rid of this shackle around my neck called working for a living, and devote more time to helping the transgender community (quite litterally, I really liked to do that kind of involved action, BTW). But, I cannot identify transgender as being a part of who I am. I can only advocate for them.

Dawn

[Rianna Humble]

Kaitlyn, I'm sorry my words offended you, they were not intended to do so.

I did not describe choosing to identify wholly as a woman as being suckered into anything. Neither did I state that you should be ashamed of who you are. If you have read the vast majority of my other posts, you will know that that is the very antithesis of what I believe.

If a post-op woman (or man) chooses to leave their identification as trans in the past, then that is what is right for them. The idea that I feel Kate pushes and with which I disagree fundamentally is that you cannot speak out on behalf of those who are experiencing what you have been through without being (in her words) "a professional tranny".

If that were the case, then the very admirable cis-woman who leads the UK parliamentary commission on transgender rights would somehow have become a "tranny" simply by advocating human rights for people with Gender Dysphoria. That is patent nonsense. It is thanks in part to the work of that cis-woman that I will have the option to be identified as a woman legally when my own transition is complete.

Dawn picked up on the nub of my argument:
What I am trying to say is that advocacy for transgender human rights does not make you any less of a woman.

[Jeanna]

I like the OP's "Sh!t or get off the pot" attitude. Read my signature

[noeleena]

Hi Kate .

Then what about this , girls can have as said a penises you are forgetting us who are intersex how do you know if we are male or female you dont thats where the misconception is right there i know people who were born with both sets ,

& i was born both male / female do i have to have surgery to be a transsexual & then become a woman is sugery the detail that changes us & some can not have any surgery so they then are not female girls women ,
You may be missing my point here & some girls females were born with out a womb yet they are all out female women. surgery does not make us or change us we are what we are . if its only about ones body then we are forgetting our mind & how we are wired i was born wired both male / female,

so what am i. or my intersex friends .

...noeleena...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

no offense at all Rianna.....it's all up for debate..
i think we are talking about different things after rereading your post..

sometimes there is a feeling among people that if you don't advocate for rights you are somehow letting people down...that bugs me sometimes...
more and more i see that my own best way to advocate is to live a full life, and one by one people that see me and know me from the past are almost universally supportive and many have had their "minds changed" over time

[Dawn D.]

more and more i see that my own best way to advocate is to live a full life, and one by one people that see me and know me from the past are almost universally supportive and many have had their "minds changed" over time

Bingo! Right on the mark there, Kaitlyn! Same experience as I.


Dawn


If that were the case, then the very admirable cis-woman who leads the UK parliamentary commission on transgender rights would somehow have become a "tranny" simply by advocating human rights for people with Gender Dysphoria. That is patent nonsense. It is thanks in part to the work of that cis-woman that I will have the option to be identified as a woman legally when my own transition is complete.


Well stated Rianna!


Dawn

[Pink Person]

Transpeople are transpeople. Cispeople are cispeople. There is nothing a transperson can do to become a cisperson, and vice versa. I chuckle a little bit when I hear that transpeople think that they can have their transness surgically removed, but then I want to cry. Surgery can change the way you think about yourself and can change the way other people think about you, but it won’t make you something you are not and can’t be: a cisperson.

There is nothing defective or dysfunctional about being transgender or transsexual. Transpeople are just as biologically natural and functional as cispeople. Transpeople are less common and therefore are members of a biological minority, but this only makes them subtypical, not subnormal.

Having two vaginas won’t make you twice the woman, but it might make you happier if that’s what you want. Transwomen should have all the surgeries they want and need. It’s a personal and subjective issue. With or without surgery, however, transwomen are transwomen. They might be different types of transwomen, but one type isn’t better or worse than another (or worse than being a ciswoman). Everyone should trust themselves to find their own level of gender comfort and resist the temptation to prescribe it or oversell it to other people.

[Alicia Ryanne]

Everyone should trust themselves to find their own level of gender comfort and resist the temptation to prescribe it or oversell it to other people.

The underlined part is 100% accurate for everyone that is/was/will realise they are trans "something".
The BOLD part of the quote is something that a select few in THIS thread(as well as total forum) need to read over and over and over and really grasp it.
I didn't really see anything offensive from Kate's original post in this thread and I actually think I understand what she meant. Ok..so after having SRS, the real transition begins. I can accept that and it makes sense because you are forced to assimilate into society as a woman(in the case of mtf) with no way of turning the clock backwards. This is both liberating and scary at the same time....you are free to be the woman you always felt you were and no one can take that away from you.
At the same time, I will be adament that I have not fallen for anyone's perceived negativity.
There is a difference between telling the truth as you see it and possibly being looked at as bitchy versus one who thinks they know it all and whats right for EVERYONE. And, they base that off their own troubled experiences mistakenly believing that what is right for THEM as an individual is what is right for everyone that they come in contact with in this community. They act overbearing, try to assert they are the queen of knowing what is correct or not and basically just on a regular basis post less then constructive comments all the while acting like they are god's gift to the trans world. I am NOT referring to Kate with that statement.....she is already post-op and whether or not the delivery is "sugar coated" or not(as one person likes to phrase), she does have some insights that can be valuable to others.

One thing I do have contention with is the statement that a transexual is NOT transgendered. Transgendered is simply an umbrella term that covers all of us. However, the point that was trying to be made(IMO) is that the mindset of a transexual is different then another person in the transgendered spectrum that has no desire to transition and the life each wishes to follow is different. Most cases, a post-op transexual really only feels like the woman they ARE and connection with past trans "anything" fades away purposefully because the internal gender incongruity is not present since the body now matches the mind.

Please dont mistake me and think I believe it requires SRS to feel like a complete woman for everyone. But, for SOME, that is how they feel about themselves. I am pre-op and hopefully post-op sometime in the future. Whether I have the surgery or not does not define me as being a woman or not, but without the SRS, I will never know if there is a mental difference in how one looks at themselves.
Anyway...sorry for rambling a little.

[Alicia Ryanne]

It's interesting to note that sooooo many post operative women choose not just to live in a role of a female, but they try everything possible to leave their transness in the past....
i can relate to that, and its not because i'm afraid or ashamed or wimping out... post surgery, i don't feel like i'm transanything anymore.....its just the way it is..

I completely understand this sentiment even though Im not post-op currently. Once your body and mind are in harmony, the idea of feeling "trans" kinda seems alien.