In or Out of the Closet Question

[Alisa]

Hey there boys and girls,

I was going to post this in MtoF forum but the boys can probably help with this question as well.

Assuming everyone starts "In the Closet", is there an official demarcation point where one would be considered "Out of the Closet"? I understand that there are situations were one is outed involuntarily but otherwise is there some event or initiation one must go through to be considered Out?

Searched through old threads for info on this subject but didn't see anything... If there is one that covers the subject, just point me in the right direction.

Thank you.

Alisa

[Barbara Dugan]

I am only out here and some other forums but besides my doctor and therapist nobody else knows about me and my sexual preferences...I will say that if your friends and family don't know about you...you are inside the closet on my case double closet

[BRANDYJ]

Being out or in the closet is in degrees. I am out to several close trusted friends, and of course I am out to my Sweetheart. So I am not in the closet to them.
However I am in the closet to my co-workers, casual friends and acquaintances and the rest of those I come in contact with. No, I do not go out into the general public dressed, so to them I am also a closet case.
If someone is in the closet other then maybe here and other on-line places, then they are 100% in the closet. If someone goes out anywhere as a female and everyone knows that she is in fact a he, then they are totally out of the closet and probably more transsexual then crossdresser.

[az_azeel]

Alisa i have moved your thread to MtF.. the lounge is not really a place to discuss crossdressing issues... so MtF is more appropriate.. ;)

[StaceyJane]

I'm out to my family just not my co workers. I go out shopping all the time as Stacey so maybe I'm 75% out.

[Alisa]

I will say that if your friends and family don't know about you...you are inside the closet...

Ok. So if your SO knows and have CD friends that know, then your out?

[PretzelGirl]

That is really a tough one to say there is a definitive answer. My opinion would be the same as Brandy's. You can either say there are degrees of being out or you just say you are not out until you are not hiding it from anyone. So if your family and friends know and work doesn't, can you really say you are out?

[Alisa]

Being out or in the closet is in degrees.... I am out to several close trusted friends, and of course I am out to my Sweetheart. So I am not in the closet to them.

Out of the closet!


...so to them I am also a closet case.

LOL!


If someone is in the closet other then maybe here and other on-line places, then they are 100% in the closet. If someone goes out anywhere as a female and everyone knows that she is in fact a he, then they are totally out of the closet and probably more transsexual then crossdresser.

Wow... no degrees of out here then.... In or Transsexual.

Thanks Brandy!

[Alisa]

Alisa i have moved your thread to MtF.. the lounge is not really a place to discuss crossdressing issues... so MtF is more appropriate.. ;)

oopsie daisy... Sorry hun! Little bit of a tangent but... so GG that dress like boys are not crossdressers... I have so much to learn! Thanks.

[Alisa]

I'm out to my family just not my co workers. I go out shopping all the time as Stacey so maybe I'm 75% out.

So it seems that we are on a track that in/out is a matter of degree... Thanks hun.

[Haley Heather]

oopsie daisy... Sorry hun! Little bit of a tangent but... so GG that dress like boys are not crossdressers... I have so much to learn! Thanks.

I think az_azeel put you in the closet lol, sorry, I couldn't resist. :)

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

One is out of the closet when one can stare back at the closet and see it fully as an independent object. One can stare out of the closet and may see a mirror on the wall and see that one maybe out of the closet but sees themselves still in the closet. So to some being out of the closet may not actually be free from the confines of the closet. The thing is to be fully free of the closet and look back at it as another object separated from you. That to me is when you are another person and are accepted as someone different to the resident of the closet. No fears in being read, ostracized by family and friends, humiliated etc.

[Alisa]

That is really a tough one to say there is a definitive answer. My opinion would be the same as Brandy's. You can either say there are degrees of being out or you just say you are not out until you are not hiding it from anyone. So if your family and friends know and work doesn't, can you really say you are out?

So confusing... but love your avatar and membership tag "Achieving balance"... Thanks hun.

[Haley Heather]

One is out of the closet when one can stare back at the closet and see it fully as an independent object. One can stare out of the closet and may see a mirror on the wall and see that one maybe out of the closet but sees themselves still in the closet. So to some being out of the closet may not actually be free from the confines of the closet. The thing is to be fully free of the closet and look back at it as another object separated from you. That to me is when you are another person and are accepted as someone different to the resident of the closet. No fears in being read, ostracized by family and friends, humiliated etc.

I think you put it very beautifully.

[Alisa]

That to me is when you are another person and are accepted as someone different to the resident of the closet. No fears in being read, ostracized by family and friends, humiliated etc.

So In or Out may not be so much a matter or degree as it is location or company that you keep.

[HannahDLuv]

i would agree with everyone else that there are degrees of being out.

in my simple mind i view a closet as a place of hiding, so the minute you stop hiding everything about your crossdressing then you are fully out of the closet.

also you can be out of the closet without telling anybody about it

[Haley Heather]

But all my beautiful shoes are in the closet. :(

I'm actually preparing to burn my closet to the ground ...

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Alisa, I'm only out to my wife who doesn't want to see it And a few thousand members on this forum.

Orchid

[docrobbysherry]

No "degrees" for me!

I keep MY closet door open just a CRACK! And, peer out at everyone! No one can tell I'm looking out! When I see another CD, or CD friendly person, I briefly open the door wide and Sherry FLASHES THEM! Then, I slam it shut!
Which mite explain my avatar and picture posts!?

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Alisa
Not necessarily, but its that you can feel free to be safe and unhindered just because you may appear different and that resides with you wherever you are and in anyone's company. You are free to converse without the fear of yourself being questioned and what you are saying is the topic of the discussion and not your physical appearance. When one can get on with life and be free from personal critique is when I feel one is truly out of the closet. One can be partially out of the closet and take a peek at the world and gradually step out and away from the closet and this may give you a feeling of being out of the closet because understanding people accept you...till that one occasion when some individual, independent of you and friends/family, displays negativity and you run back into the closet and slam the doors shut. Some who are totally out of the closet live life to its fullest and know how to handle negative situations. To me, this is a sure sign one is "out of the closet". They can and have been able to look back at the closet and accept it as a mere object.

[sara.s]

I have been to a transformation service recently and the GG artist and her husband have seen me dreesed. But i still consider "in the closet" until i actually go out of comfort zone.

[NathalieX66]

The day I walked out the front door and met other cd'ers at a Tri-Ess meeting was the day I became out of the closet....I also found myself at a hotel bar that evening amongst a macho military crowd.

The day(s) I spend on my own, or with somebody, at restaurants, cafes, movie theatres, shopping malls, train stations, everywhere else while en femme.

The day I posted a pic of me on my guy FB page was the day that everyone found out I was TG.....yeah, it's freakin' weird and awesome when my friends talk about my femme side more than I do.

The main thing about being out of the closet is......ACCEPT YOURSELF.

[Marissa]

oopsie daisy... Sorry hun! Little bit of a tangent but... so GG that dress like boys are not crossdressers... I have so much to learn! Thanks.

:) Alisa, yes a GG that dresses like a boy is a crossdresser..ok, in our society, its just a girl wearing comfortable jeans and t-shirt ;) And please, I said crossdresser, but not stating this to start a jab at lables :heehee:

She moved the thread here due to the fact that it does discuss some form of crossdressing. The lounge is for everything not associated to dressing :)

Others are giving a great example of how 'out of the closet' is measured, but to put it in a % is really each persons call. Nathalie is a great example of being fully out of the closet.

[az_azeel]

oopsie daisy... Sorry hun! Little bit of a tangent but... so GG that dress like boys are not crossdressers... I have so much to learn! Thanks.

Of course there are GG's that dress as boys but most of the "boys" on this forum do not refer to themselves as GG but as FtM.. they have their own section and its worth a read.. and they have similiar problems to us when it comes to acceptance...as for GG's themslelves they fought long and hard a long time ago for the right to wear pants.. something that we need to do if we dont want to be riduculed in public....


I think az_azeel put you in the closet lol, sorry, I couldn't resist. :)

mm i feel a moderator slap comming on :heehee:.. in fact ...:slap:...

[Haley Heather]

mm i feel a moderator slap comming on :heehee:.. in fact ...:slap:...

:(




















:hugs:

[Sophie86]

The expression I use is "I am out with X" where X is some person or group of people who know about my crossdressing. I have gone out of my closet, out of the house, and down the street while dressed up. The people I met did not all know me, though, so it's not accurate to say that I am out with them. They could see that I was a man dressed as a woman, but they could not put a name on me, so I was still hidden from them.

[Cari]

My definition of truly out of the closet would be when I just didnt care who knew or what they thought.
Unfortunately I am not willing to do that because others besides myself would be affected.

For me it hasnt been so much a journey out of the closet.
It's more like Im building a bigger more comfortable closet.

Whats funny is each steps is really liberating and feels great; then you see the next step.
With each person Ive told I realize there are so many that dont know who would probably handle it fine.
Each time I go out, I think of other places I would like to go but dont because they arent in my comfort zone.

If I had to describe my closet Id say

Its like the being inside one of the Russian Dolls

or

That it seats 30 to 50 and covers a few states :-)
There is a really worn spot that represents my home in the middle, and a ring around that that is my safety zone.

I think its more a matter of inviting people into my closet than it is me stepping out.

[Alisa]

:(

:hugs:

Not to worry Haley, AZ is a sweetheart...

[Raychel]

In my opinion you are out of the closet, when you can reach into your closet and decide which clothes you feel like wearing for the day. And you don't have to think about what other people wil say if that happens to be womens clothes.

[gwenbeth]

And there are varying degrees of outness. my SO and a few others know about the crossdressing, but only at a theoretical level. They do not know about Gwen. Some friends know about me being Gwen and have seen pictures. And others have I have been able to talk to while being myself. maybe one day every one will know me as who i am.

[Melissa Rose]

I consider being in or out of the closet to be just another label. There are so many definitions and unclear dividing lines. I understand the desire to have nice and simple descriptions and definitions, but labels can also be sources of confusion and division especially when you are trying to find yourself and how you fit in with the world and others. Except for my SO, I am not out in my boy life. I'm totally out in the mainstream in my girl life. I will go almost anywhere and do almost anything with my friends (t-girls, straight and gay GGs and GMs - they all know. There is a touch of irony since those descriptions could be considered labels) and by myself while en femme. All of this is by choice. So am I in or out of the closet? With no disrespect to those who care, why does it matter? I don't care since all that matters is I'm being myself and living my life the way that I want.

[Alice B]

A lot depends upon your life style. I'm out to my wife, all my family and a few close friends. I am not out to business and professional friends or recreational associates. I feel safe to go out dressed to carefully locations, which have only been for an evening. Other than that all dressing has been at home. I am about to go to a week long event and will be dressed all week. That would, for me, be a big step out of the closet, but I'll remain in it for all the previous mentioned groups.

[Michelle.M]

I spend most of my time in the closet, but that's just because all my clothes are there.

[rim shot]

But seriously folks, I am selectively out. As I get closer to T-day (time when I go full-time) questions of in or out will be less relevant.

[Jorja]

Don't let anyone fool you Alisa. When you offically come out of the closet, you must do it in grand fashion. Wait for a big town party or festival. Dress in your sexiest dress and walk out on stage and announce to one and all, I am a Woman!!!! :D

[suchacutie]

To me it's not about who knows the connection between my masculine and feminine presentations. From my perspective we step over the line when we step out into the public eye as our feminine selves. It is at that point that we must deal with humanity as a feminine being, regardless of who makes the connection of what other being we are as our male selves.

tina

[Donniesr]

I think you are right..its not about coming out of the closet but inviting those,,,into your closet..I'm just scared of who to invite,,

[linda allen]

Assuming everyone starts "In the Closet", is there an official demarcation point where one would be considered "Out of the Closet"? I understand that there are situations were one is outed involuntarily but otherwise is there some event or initiation one must go through to be considered Out?

Crossdressing has no organization or rules committee so ther's nothing "official". In my opinion, you are "in the closet" if nobody knows about your crossdressing. Internet friends don't count.

You are out of the closet if anyone you know knows about your crossdressing. If you go out in public and people see you as a crossdresser but don't know you, that's not "out of the closet".

Just my opinion.

[Alisa]

Crossdressing has no organization or rules committee so ther's nothing "official". In my opinion, you are "in the closet" if nobody knows about your crossdressing. Internet friends don't count.

You are out of the closet if anyone you know knows about your crossdressing. If you go out in public and people see you as a crossdresser but don't know you, that's not "out of the closet".


Hey Linda,
Thanks for sharing your opinion. As a person who does not like gray areas... not a least as a starting point... I really appreciate your perspective. Not that I don't appreciate others opinions... there have been some very interesting... some even beautiful... perspectives offered in response to this question but a solid black and white definition is always a comfortable place for me to start.

What do you thing about starting a rules committee? Ha...ha...

Hugs..

[Alisa]

Hi All,
Sorry about going outside the community for information on this subject but sometimes we have to stretch... am I right?

Anyway certainly not offered as authoritative but interesting none the less. Take a look and comment if you please:

http://www.lauras-playground.com/transgender_terminology.htm

COMING OUT : The process of becoming aware of, understanding and accepting one's own sexual orientation or gender identity. This also consists of the decision making process of identifying oneself openly in disclosure of this to another.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/start/tgterms.html

out: living openly about one's trans status

http://www.danistroom.com/inspirations/help/transgendered-terms-definitions.htm

Interesting but not relevant to this discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

Ok! Something from a wiki...

Coming Out

Transgender people vary greatly in choosing when, if, and how to disclose their transgender status to family, close friends, and others. The prevalence of discrimination[127] and violence[128] against the transgender community can make coming out a risky decision.

To Family Members
Often times transgender people will come out to their families in their adulthood in fear that if they come out earlier their parents will kick them out of their homes (if they are still living with them), or take privileges away from them.[129] Some parents are fully aware of their child's transgenderism because of the way she or he acts as they grow up, yet there are those parents who do not understand why their children are transgender. In an effort to change their children back to "normal" they often send them to counselors to try to get them out of what they see as a "phase".[130]

http://www.uis.edu/studentaffairs/safezone/resources/documents/Definitions.pdf

Coming Out: An ever-evolving process of self-acceptance and integration of one's sexual identity. It is an intra-personal as well as interpersonal process and may include public proclamation of identity as well as political action in the larger society.

Being Out or Out of the Closet: A term which means being open and public about being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgendered. A closeted person hides the fact that they are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. Some people are "out" in some settings (for example, with friends) and not "out" in other settings (for example, at work or with family).

Wow... Lots of resources available... probably better for you to evaluate the source for your self so here is the google search... What do yo think?

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=transgender+terms+and+definitions&aq=2&aqi=g3g-v2&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=ee6ab499cd4cc77a

[Fab Karen]

( for mtf ) when you can walk across the rice paper in stilletos without leaving a mark, it will be time for you to go grass-hopper. :)

[Alyla]

So it seems that we are on a track that in/out is a matter of degree... Thanks hun.

or inches, ::just smiles and winks::

[Fran Moore]

I'm with Melissa on this one!
I consider being in or out of the closet to be just another label. There are so many definitions and unclear dividing lines. I understand the desire to have nice and simple descriptions and definitions, but labels can also be sources of confusion and division especially when you are trying to find yourself and how you fit in with the world and others. Except for my SO, I am not out in my boy life. I'm totally out in the mainstream in my girl life. I will go almost anywhere and do almost anything with my friends (t-girls, straight and gay GGs and GMs - they all know. There is a touch of irony since those descriptions could be considered labels) and by myself while en femme. All of this is by choice. So am I in or out of the closet? With no disrespect to those who care, why does it matter? I don't care since all that matters is I'm being myself and living my life the way that I want.

[dawnmarrie1961]

I hadn’t been much of a cross dresser in my adult life. But when my life was turned upside down by a triple whammy of stressful instances I went into a severe depression and chose the behavior of cross-dressing as a method of coping. I literally jumped out of the closet feet first into the world, much to the shock and surprise of my wife and children, friends and family. It’s the only thing I could think of doing that made sense at the time. The only thing I knew from experience would work. It worked a little too well.

[Alice Torn]

I have been outside about tWELVE times, in five years, so i am out of the closet,ONCE IN A GREAT WHILE.

[victoriamwilliams1]

For me I am not out to my family or friends, however I do about 80% of my errands as Victoria! So I guess I am out but not out:)

[Lainie]

You tell me:

None of my relatives knows except my wife. None of my colleagues at work knows.

My wife knows, hates it, won't discuss it, so I honor her wishes by trying not to let her see me dressed. Except that lately I have been wearing women's pants and trainers around the house with guy's polos, or with blouses under pullovers when it was colder.

I have gone to church functions--worship & committee meetings--fully en femme but "in mufti"; i.e. unisex outfits, often topped by a man's sport coat to provide the pockets my gal slacks don't so I can avoid carrying a purse. But sometimes with my gear in a purse that can pass for a computer bag. I don't tell anyone what I'm doing, but the minister did notice I was wearing an eco-friendly bead necklace, and one of the church founders asked where I got the bag. I believe that no one at church knows, and am pretty sure that I would find out if they did.

When traveling, I have often gone shopping and dining fully en femme and feminine--skirt & blouse or dress, heels, purse, hose, feminine necklaces. I never pass, because my handlebar is almost 4 decades old, and I can't put it back on as fast as I can remove nail polish.

I volunteer for a photography organization in Houston, hosting galleries at various locations when there are exhibits showing. Sometimes in drag, sometimes in drab, sometimes mixed, as above. A couple of times one of the principal curators has seen me in a dress or skirt, while on duty or on my way out. Others in the organization have certainly seen me in mixed mode; e.g. boots with heels. Today I'm wearing ballet flats, women's slacks, a woman's long linen shirt/tunic with strap sleeves al buttoned up, a long two-strand steel necklace, and carrying a big feminine tarnished-silver-colored leather purse, and an underwired bra with gel pads--my maximum breast expression. After my shift, I'm going to change into a skirt & tank top, keep the tunic but open all the buttons, switch to grey flats with pointer toes that match the purse better, and go to my favorite restaurant. Not a gay hang-out, once a cop nearly choked on his soup when he saw me.

So I'd say I am not out. But on the other hand, there are people who would say otherwise. And you?

[Alisa]

You tell me:

So I'd say I am not out. But on the other hand, there are people who would say otherwise. And you?

I say you are out... or at least in the process of coming out...