taboo

[Donniesr]

I wonder why it is so OK for a woman to dress in a pair of grubby jeans and a flannel shirt, but it is so taboo for a guy to go out in public wearing a pretty dress...Someone please explain this???

[Roberta Marie]

Largely, I suspect, because women have struggled and fought for over 100 years and earned the right to wear jeans and a flannel shirt, while men, or more specifically crossdressers, don't have the ovaries to stand up for their right to wear a dress.

[Rachel Morley]

Unfortunately it's all about the social hierarchy within our society. When a woman dresses in a way that is perceived to be masculine it's not considered a problem because she's "going up the scale". However, when a man dresses in a way that is perceived to be feminine it is a problem because (especially amongst other men) he's lowering himself because in their eyes dressing feminine is being less of a man, and being less of a man is considered a bad thing.

However, Roberta Marie is absolutely right when she says "because women have struggled and fought for over 100 years and earned the right to wear jeans and a flannel shirt" Yes I agree they have. Unlike women, we haven't yet "earned the right" to wear whatever we want .... not if you want to be socially accepted that is. In the past women were "not allowed" to wear all sorts of masculine clothes. I'm talking 100 years ago here. They were expected (because of men) to wear corsets, dresses, etc etc .... trousers/pants were at best frowned upon, at worst totally rejected in polite society. It wasn't until the women's movement fought for their rights by getting out there and doing it, i.e. being seen in the clothes they wanted to wear .... in other words they made it happen.

IMHO it's going to be the same for us. We (me included) have to get out there in our dresses and be seen for what we are .... transgendered. It's not going to be an easy ride, and we are going to have to take some risks, but if ultimately, we are going to get accepted more in society then people have to know about us. It's up to us to educate them that we are harmless individuals and we are not to be feared ... despite what they may perceive.

Just my 2 cents :)

[Donniesr]

your 2 cents is probly worth way more.. and you are right, we just need to go out there and just do it..and that inccludes me, you and all other crossdressers..
btw...i wish i had as pretty breasts as you...

[Rachel Morley]

btw...i wish i had as pretty breasts as you...
They're "all smoke and mirrors" .. nothing there but loose pecs, some tape and the right bra! :)

[ReineD]

Unfortunately it's all about the social hierarchy within our society. When a woman dresses in a way that is perceived to be masculine it's not considered a problem because she's "going up the scale". However, when a man dresses in a way that is perceived to be feminine it is a problem because (especially amongst other men) he's lowering himself because in their eyes dressing feminine is being less of a man, and being less of a man is considered a bad thing.

This is true to a degree, but I think the public is even more strung out about the notion of PRESENTING in a gender different than birth. Women who wear pants and flannel shirts, unless they are transmen, are still very much presenting as women. They are not masking their feminine physiognomy. And the women who wear these things buy them from women's department stores or outlets like Eddie Bauer, where the clothes look different than the same items for men because they are specifically designed and tailored for women, with more feminine fabrics. People know when they see a woman wearing these things that she is presenting as a woman.

The transmen who do present as men and wear the pants and shirts purchased in men's department stores open themselves up to as much bias as do the CDers.



However, Roberta Marie is absolutely right when she says "because women have struggled and fought for over 100 years and earned the right to wear jeans and a flannel shirt" Yes I agree they have. Unlike women, we haven't yet "earned the right" to wear whatever we want .... not if you want to be socially accepted that is.

This is true as well, but an added complication is the sheer volume of women who started to wear (feminine) pants, as compared to the few numbers of CDers who want to wear (feminine) dresses and pants. When 50% of the population insisted on wearing pants during the 50s, there wasn't much the other 50% could do about it, especially since they were married to the first 50%. :p And of course, the fashion industry was also only too happy to oblige, again because of the sheer volume of demand.

So even if all the CDers in the world were to unite tomorrow and go out in droves dressed in skirts and dresses, there would only be one in 500 at best. Also, the CDers turn their noses at man skirts Ã* la Jean Paul Gaultier. The vast majority of the CDers in this forum want the same dresses, in the same fabrics and colors that women wear. Plus, they want to wear makeup, women's shoes, and style their hair like women style theirs. As mentioned earlier, it is much more than just wearing a skirt.

And last, even if all the CDers would go out in public tomorrow dressed, many people would not know they are trans since the goal for so many is to pass or blend. They do fall on the periphery of people's vision, so they aren't noticed very much. Because of this and because there are so few CDers, they aren't as 'in your face' as were the droves of women in the 50s when they started to wear pants.

The way to get CDers recognized by society is to begin by changing the non-discrimination laws in the workplace and not only make sure that TSs don't lose their jobs when they want to transition, but also force employers to support the CDers who want to switch back and forth. And have many, many more stories in the media like the woman who wrote "My Princess Boy". And have more transwomen and CDers hold public office, go on talk shows, write books that reach the mainstream, become movie or rock starts, in short, be very much in the public eye, in addition to having more CDers go out in public who let themselves be known as CDers rather than trying to blend or pass as women.

[Haley Heather]

So even if all the CDers in the world were to unite tomorrow and go out in droves dressed in skirts and dresses, there would only be one in 500 at best. Also, the CDers turn their noses at man skirts Ã* la Jean Paul Gaultier. The vast majority of the CDers in this forum want the same dresses, in the same fabrics and colors that women wear. Plus, they want to wear makeup, women's shoes, and style their hair like women style theirs. As mentioned earlier, it is much more than just wearing a skirt.


This is what I don't understand, if there are so many heterosexual non-transgendered men out there why don't they enjoy exploring these fashion options.

[ReineD]

Because they're happy with their fashion options. They don't want to present as women.

[Vickie_CDTV]

This is what I don't understand, if there are so many heterosexual non-transgendered men out there why don't they enjoy exploring these fashion options.

They are afraid of being perceived as somehow weak or less of a man, and really afraid of being perceived as gay.

[ReineD]

Vickie, it's more than that. Please believe me. I know many cis-men and they are truly happy with their gender. They have no wish to present as women. They don't want to because it is not who they are.

It's true that part of the male conditioning is to reject all things feminine for themselves. But their reasons for doing so are much, much deeper than just a fear that others will think they are gay.

[Angiemead12]

I wonder why it is so OK for a woman to dress in a pair of grubby jeans and a flannel shirt, but it is so taboo for a guy to go out in public wearing a pretty dress...Someone please explain this???

my take on it is because men are still seen as the superior sex so if you were a man then why would you want to dress as a woman?

[Tanya C]

I think you're comparing apples with oranges. Women, who are not cders themselves, don't usually wear pants in order to present as a man, but are simply making a choice of attire within their range of acceptable clothing for their gender. Notice that they rarely wear fake beards or even men's shoes, nor do they let their leg hair grow. And besides, the pants women wear are often feminized anyway.
On the other hand, when we cders wear women's clothing it is generally for the purpose of feeling or looking like a woman. I doubt there are many cders who wear women's attire in guy mode for the purpose of making an avant garde fashion statement.

[Amelia]

There are men that wear skirts designed as men's fashion, just as women wear trousers designed as women's fashion. Kilts, either traditional or something modern like the utilikilt.

[Laura'sCloud]

I think it is because women are more understanding of the wish for someone to dress how they feel, while men see feminine clothes as something to make women more desireable and attractive, which means looking at or even being close to a guy showing any feminine traits or wearing female clothes questions their masculinity.
And because we still live in a largely male controlled society that is how most see it.

[Sue101]

I think masculinity is defined as being the opposite of femininity. Cis men defend their masculinity against any signs of femininity or homosexuality so under no account could they ever allow themselves to want to wear women's clothing. It would be like admitting to wanting to wear a "Dunces" hat. It is a major weakness of masculinity that it is so afraid of incorporating femininity because it is despised and considered perverted amongst men.

[Pythos]

Roberta Marie.

I really dispise lines like that. First off, yes they did fight. As far as earning, they really had nothing to lose and oh so much to gain.

Where as we guys have oh so much to lose, and realatively little to gain.

But, when women perpetuate the double standard... that is when it is wrong. Women should be part of the front lines of the equality of expression, not be the ones upholding such taboos. (of course not all women do that, but unfortunately the most influential ones do)

[Alice Torn]

Tanya, LOL about women wearing fake beards! Can you just see Vanna White on Wheel of Misfortune, strutting her stuff, with a fake beard or mustache?! I agree that almost no women wear pants, as crossdressing. However, in 1971, in a small town high school, when they first allowed girls to wear pants to school, I did sense a different attitude. And, deep in the psyche of many gg's, i think there is a little haughtiness buried deep, about not having to wear a dress.

[ikthys]

Simplest explanation is: Society has allowed that women can wear whatever they want, so they are not doing anything wrong when they wear even a men's cut article (though it is true that this came about in an interesting and politically charged way that had more to do with power play, etc.), and that men can wear anything except "women's" articles of clothes, so that we are doing something wrong if in a dress, hose, and heels (even if they were tailored for our body type). It's true that such a woman is not crossdressing because she's allowed to wear even men's cut clothes, so we can't say "she gets to crossdress and I don't", but we can say, "the laws of style are not fair". Such laws evolve over centuries and millenia and usually in punctuated jumps (some huge historical event or technological advancement or, in more recent history, famous person). I bet that men will be permitted more in the future (already starting, though a little on the fringe), but once many men are wearing dresses, hose, and heels around normally I think far fewer will find the same type of compulsion towards it that we developed under the current conditions of it's power as "women's only", but then again we'd probably not have had as much of a propensity for any compulsion due to the greater freedoms and ubiquity between external gender expressions.

[Sue101]

I think the taboo remains in place in part due to the fact that women want masculine men because it makes them in turn feel feminine. The essence of femininity that crossdressers chase after is the power and priviledge accorded to being the center of attention, the one who is desired, admired, turns heads and creates jealousy. The more feminity a woman projects, the more likely she is to land an alpha male. So greater femininity attracts greater masculinity and more focused attention. This equation goes to pot when the man crossdresses as he no longer delivers on his side of the bargain so he becomes worthless to women as a mate, and worthless to society if he does not want to be a cog in the production wheel.

[Ann Thomas]

My only answer is to explain it the way my grandmother did. She was born in 1903, and was raised by her grandmother. She told me that back in the Victorian age it was common for women traveling the Oregon Trail to wear their husband's clothes (jeans and flannel shirts, or something rough like that). According to my grandmother it was accepted because it was practical - no woman wanted to get her nice dresses all dirty, plus who wants to fight with a skirt in a rough environment?

So even during an age of very critical times of appearance and 'being proper', women were allowed to dress in men's clothes under certain circumstances.

Hope that helps a bit.

Hugs,
Ann

[SusanQ]

I never try to pass as a woman. In fact I never really wear much women's outerwear...just a pair of leggings to lounge around the house. I wear women's lingerie all the time though. Panties, pantyhose, girdles, etc. And I wear them for the same reason that women wear male clothing...they feel good to me. People pass by me all the time and have no idea what I have under my outer garments, and that's how I want it to be.

[Jill Devine]

my take on it is because men are still seen as the superior sex so if you were a man then why would you want to dress as a woman?
100% correct. Fact is that society in general places men above women. Yes it's wrong but women are viewed as the weaker sex in all ways. So when a women dresses in a masculine way, she is moving up society's false ladder. And when a man bucks the trend the subtle question is why the heck would a man want to do that?

Stupid, yes, but still a reality.

[Angiemead12]

I think the taboo remains in place in part due to the fact that women want masculine men because it makes them in turn feel feminine. The essence of femininity that crossdressers chase after is the power and priviledge accorded to being the center of attention, the one who is desired, admired, turns heads and creates jealousy. The more feminity a woman projects, the more likely she is to land an alpha male. So greater femininity attracts greater masculinity and more focused attention. This equation goes to pot when the man crossdresses as he no longer delivers on his side of the bargain so he becomes worthless to women as a mate, and worthless to society if he does not want to be a cog in the production wheel.

Great answer! I like... :)

[EllieOPKS]

I think It's pretty simple. Most women can make ANYTHING look sexy.

[adrienner99]

People, especially men, fear almost anything they don't understand. Men feel they have to attack
CDing for fear they themselves will be ridiculed if they don't. Women have nothing to fear from a man's CDing, although those married to CDs might justifiably worry about their kids...

[KerryLynn]

my take on it is because men are still seen as the superior sex so if you were a man then why would you want to dress as a woman?

Because god made two perfect things Boobies :mooning: < is this right lol I don't know but Im gonna put it there anyways lol
:rave:

Love ya,
Kerry