We are not crossdressers.....and we get fed up of being told we are

[Sandra]

Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not.
1. We are not trying to present as a male unless the woman is FtM
2. We don’t go around wearing binders
3. We don’t stuff our trousers
Basically we just wear the clothes that are designed for us. Some will say what about wearing our SO’s top etc, yes some may wear those clothes but again we are not trying to emulate a male.

Most of you on here are trying to emulate a female and this is where the difference is, you want/try to be as near dam it female, whereas a female just wears the clothes and still presents as a woman.

Of course all of this goes out of the window if you are FtM, and they have just as many problems as an MtF has if not more. I just wonder of you realise how much anger and hurt some of these comments cause the FtMs, becasue a lot on here still class the FtMs as females and not males.

[JohnH]

Sandra,

I have a dress on over a pair of Hanes men's briefs. That's it for the underwear. I don't have any makeup on.
I am not trying to present as a female.
I don't have breast forms on. I don't own any.
I don't wear wigs nor own any.
As far as makeup is concerned is sometimes I will wear lipstick and blush with my standard men's business casual clothes as well as sometimes when I wear dresses.

For my avatar - the only addition that I had was heeled shoes.

So why would I as a man be considered a crossdresser with the description above?

In the early days of pants on women they had to wear men's pants since women's pants were not available. When was the last time you found skirts and dresses designed for men that were readily available and at a reasonable price?

Some people even take issue when I wear the following: a denim skirt with a man's T-shirt and hiking boots.

Something to consider: the number of F2M members of this website is a tiny fraction of the members, where the overwhelming members are M2F. However, I can see how it would really be tough to be F2M.

See what I mean with the double-standards in society?

John

[Anne2345]

Hello Sandra! You are correct to point this out. The two are apples and oranges. Interestingly, until just recently joining this forum and seeing the ocassional reference to which you speak, the thought or issue had never crossed my mind. Obviously I am very much in tune with my female crossdressing, and others like me, because we do so with the specific intent of portraying and/or "becoming" females. The same can not be said about women wearing what may be considered masculine clothing, unless there is specific intent to portray males. And this is acceptable and common in our society, as it should be. My wife will occassionally wear clothing that may be considered masculine, but she is not doing so for the same reasons that I wear female clothes, and I would never compare what she does to what I do. Very well stated, Sandra.

[Robynts]

Sandra,

Your points are well taken. I don't think that people that post about women in men's clothing are pointing the finger at women and saying they are crossdressing. I suspect they are actually pointing out a deep seated in jealousy. Most crossdressers, myself included, wish we would not be judged when we wear women's clothing. Typically, not always, a woman in men's clothing is not noticed, there are no comments, no funny stares or giggling from people as they walk by.

I myself envy women who are able to wear pretty clothing whenever they want. Can you just imagine what my retired Admiral boss would say if I wore a lacy blouse with my suit?

As for the FtM, they do have a tough row-to-hoe, possibly much more difficult than the typical MtF. I have been fortunate to meet many wonderful FtMs at SCC and other times in my life. I can say that many of them hurt as much as any MtF. In many ways they have the same issues as we genetic males, but it appears to me that they have a much smaller support group.

Hopefully, all of us can be sensitive to the feelings of the genetic women, and FtM's on the site. We are all on similar journeys or, at the least, trying to deal with loved ones who are on the journey.

Robyn

[Eryn]

Sandra, as someone who has been on this site for a long time you must have seen this issue addressed hundreds of times. You must realize that one protest won't make a lot of difference.

Do you realize that it is equally insensitive to stereotype the intent of CDers? Many CDers are focused on self-expression and aren't interested in being perfect emulations of women. I have a ruffled floral top that fits me perfectly. Apparently it was designed to fit me. It's pretty and I like to wear it. If you saw me wearing it you'd still likely insist that I'm trying to emulate a woman even if I was otherwise in drab. It isn't fair, but prejudice exists in all forms.

[Alisa]

I just wonder of you realise how much anger and hurt some of these comments cause the FtMs, becasue a lot on here still class the FtMs as females and not males.

Hey Sandra, I made the mistake of referring to boys/FtoM as GG. I was corrected by a mod but it was just slip. Honestly! The mod pointed out that GG fought and won the right wear pants years ago... Not sure I understand how that is relevant... but did not argue the point because I like the mod who corrected me. Anyway, I like women in in jeans, trousers, etc.. Form fitting pants can be very sexy...

Rant right back at you hun...

Love,
Alisa

[Jannine]

Hey Sandra,
Just for my benefit, would you have any stats on FtMs? Like what is the incidence in the US. for example? I would think it not as prevalent as MtFs, especially so here in Australia. The number of boys that desire to be girls is overwhelming. Or is it ??
Jannine. x

[GaleWarning]

Bugger! Now I am even more confused than I was before!

I thought I had sorted out in my head the difference between CD, TV, TS, ... and had firmly come to the conclusion that I was a male CDer who enjoyed wearing women's clothes.

Now Sandra would have me believe that I am not a CDer, because
1. I am not trying to present as afemale when I have a dress on.
2. I don't even try to tuck.
3. I don't stuff my bra (when I wear one).

Again, I am definitely NOT trying to emulate a female.

And I get SO MAD when certain posters insist on referring to us collectively as "girls".

Now I have problems ... if I am not a CDer, should I be on this forum?
And if not, where do I belong?
AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!

[Kelly DeWinter]

Sandra,

I was wondering when this particualr pot was going to boil over. You expressed the point very well. The societal norms for women includes clothing once reserved for men. Ther reverse cannot be said for mens fashion. Probably because womens fashion designers have allways been more aggressive in incorperating anything in designing clothes. Mens fashion designers on the other hand tradititionally only change the pants cuff, lapel or tiew width.

[Cynthia Anne]

I read through your post twice to make sure I didn't miss anything! I couldn't agree with you more! Thank you for making it so clear and correct!

[dawnmarrie1961]

I hate all these labels. "FTM,MTF, SO,CD,PHD,MFP, and so on...and so on." Why can't we all just be people instead of being divided up into groups according to gender, race, age or whatever. Is it so important to belong to a group? What ever happened to individuality? Did that die with the 60's? What we were so afraid of becoming back then is what we have become now,, a homogenized and pasteurized product of an unrealistic ideology that values tolerance but doesn’t practice it.

[Mary Morgan]

Sandra is right on the mark from my point of view. I wear womens clothing, but I also wear makeup, breast forms, and other foundation enhancements because I want to appear to be a woman. I do not want to appear to be a man in clothing normally worn by women. This whole issue of being defined as a crossdresser confuses the issue. Crossdressing is what I do because I want to be seen as a woman. For me anyway, it is not just about the clothes.

[Debglam]

Most of you on here are trying to emulate a female and this is where the difference is, you want/try to be as near dam it female, whereas a female just wears the clothes and still presents as a woman.


Good post Sandra. It is about the "why" and not the "what."

I think that it IS true that the norms of society make it much easier for a woman to wear traditionally masculine clothes than for a man to wear traditionally feminine clothes. That may not be fair but the clothes are the "what." I don't wear female clothes when I dress because they are comfortable, etc., I wear them because it is how I can express my feminine side. The "why."

I don't think most women wearing guy's jeans and flannel shirts do it to feel masculine. If they do then maybe they are FTM, again the "why."

Thanks,
Debby

[Fab Karen]

An old issue on this site. Some of the members are living in the long-gone past.

And btw, I'm not a crossdresser... I don't do crucifixes.:)

[Pythos]

Sandra. I am one that wishes. WISHES I could wear a skirt and hose or other "feminine" items as a male. Unfortunately I would damage my reputation. This is a fact, not perception. A man wearing feminine clothing even IF he is wearing them as a male IS STILL CALLED A CROSSDRESSER!!! I hear stuff like they should only wear kilts and other such non sense.

My wearing leggings I know is affecting my dating prospects. I don't wear them at or anywhere near the airfield, and wish every day I do that that I would just buck the trend and don a pair opposed to the jeans I am forced to wear for all intents and purposes.

I will say again, I don't think most men that cross dress to pass as women would really have ventured into it if it was not for the fact we males ARE limited in what we can wear. Women are also limited, but you are in no way near as limited this modern era.

[Alyla]

I hate all these labels. "FTM,MTF, SO,CD,PHD,MFP, and so on...and so on." Why can't we all just be people instead of being divided up into groups according to gender, race, age or whatever. Is it so important to belong to a group? What ever happened to individuality? Did that die with the 60's? What we were so afraid of becoming back then is what we have become now,, a homogenized and pasteurized product of an unrealistic ideology that values tolerance but doesn’t practice it.::stands up and applauds::

Right on!! I could not agree more. Perhaps it is society that has gone dysphoric in this day and age. I am me. period. Get used to it. I will wear what I want. No more dress codes. Computers and technology have turned us into a binary society and our values seem to have become black and white. Enough of polarizing dichotomies already . Please. Peace and LOve. Just imagine!

[Phoebe P.]

Ummm... Why do you get offended by opinions of people posted on a message board. I think it is jealousy on the part of the males on the board that wish we could wear whatever we want when we want. Just as you are venting, I think the posts that make you angry are venting by other members. I don't think anyone is saying you're walking around with a cucumber in your Levi's! At one time, women weren't "allowed" to wear pants. Now women can wear anything a man can wear and it's no big deal. My brother's prom date back in the day wore a tux! If my brother had worn a prom dress... He'd have gotten beaten up in the parking lot!

Don't be angry. We know you are wearing women's jeans and shirts (although it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to shop in the men's section). I would think that amount of freedom would make you happy, not angry! Can't we all just get along? :D

[Cristi]

Some will say what about wearing our SO’s top etc, yes some may wear those clothes but again we are not trying to emulate a male.

Exactly. *I* may wear a skirt at times but am not trying to emulate a female. Exactly the same thing, just reversed. If you do NOT see that, then you are using a double standard (not to mention painting everybody on this board with a VERY broad brush).

99% of the time I crossdress, that is all I do. Just put on a skirt or dress instead of pants or shirt. No makeup, no forms.

As far as 'Most of us trying to emulate a female'. Though many do, there are almost as many different reasons as there are people on this forum. One that you might not have considered is that it is outright dangerous to be 'different' in this society (have you SEEN the rate of violence against CD/TG/TS people?). Many of the people you are trying to condem may just be using makeup/forms/etc so they can go out safely without violence as retribution for how they want to dress... something YOU don't have to worry about when putting on a men's t-shirt.

And finally. Why does it bother you so much to be told that you ARE a crossdresser? If you truly don't see anything wrong with diversity, being called a crossdresser for what you do would hold no more power over you than calling you a blonde, or short, or a person with freckles. Just the fact that it upsets you sets off alarm bells for me about your level of acceptance of diversity.

[Debb]

I'm with dawnmarrie1961. I'm sick of labels. They tend to lead to stereotypes, while stemming from stereotypes at the same time.

[Phoebe P.]

To take it to an extreme, Lesbian sex is "perfectly acceptable" to many and can be introduced to the heterosexual bedroom in Western culture. The movie Bound comes to mind. Gay sex portrayed in movies is very controversial, however -- not that there's anything wrong with that to quote Seinfeld!

Granted that is an extreme, but it does point out the double standard.

Be happy you can wear whatever you want and don't be angry, be happy! :D

[BLUE ORCHID]

WoW Sandra, Now I'm really confused I don't know what I am.

Orchid

[sissystephanie]

A Crossdresser wears the clothing of the opposite sex for whatever reason they use. A GG who wears pants and a shirt is most likely wearing clothing that has been made for a female!! That is NOT crossdressing! On the other hand, Johanna, when you, a male, wear a dress you are definitely crossdressing, simply becaue you are wearing clothing that is made for a female!! I do not try to be a woman and have no desire to do so, but I do wear female clothing quite often! Yes, I am a crossdresser!! And Orchid, I am pretty sure you are too!

[Alisa]

A Crossdresser wears the clothing of the opposite sex for whatever reason they use. A GG who wears pants and a shirt is most likely wearing clothing that has been made for a female!! That is NOT crossdressing! On the other hand, Johanna, when you, a male, wear a dress you are definitely crossdressing, simply becaue you are wearing clothing that is made for a female!! I do not try to be a woman and have no desire to do so, but I do wear female clothing quite often! Yes, I am a crossdresser!! And Orchid, I am pretty sure you are too!

Thank god! Finally a voice of reason, wisdom....

[darla_g]

i think its just that the convention for mode of dress is so much more limiting than that of women. I say wear whatever you want.

[JohnH]

Believe me, if skirts and dresses were sold to men at reasonable prices, I would certainly buy them! If I had money I would buy kilts.

I do not wear women's pants or shirts. Let's see - if my breasts continue to grow due to gynecomastia I suppose I would be able to buy bras for men (Lots of luck!) I will NOT bind my breasts!

Women who bought men's pants when they were working to get pants wearing acceptable would have been crossdressers.

John

[busker]

Sandra is right on the mark from my point of view. I wear womens clothing, but I also wear makeup, breast forms, and other foundation enhancements because I want to appear to be a woman. I do not want to appear to be a man in clothing normally worn by women. This whole issue of being defined as a crossdresser confuses the issue. Crossdressing is what I do because I want to be seen as a woman. It is not about the clothes.
Hi Mary, I'm not picking on you, I just want to use your sentence.
If what you state is correct (and applies to all Cds here) then we would all be dressing in jeans, flip-flops and t-shirts, no make-up, hair helter-skelter, and not in dresses, heels, wigs and make-up, because 95% of the women I see where I live don't wear anything resembling what a lot of cds wear, tobe seen as women. It IS about the clothes, but clothing worn by a very stylized male image of what women used to wear or wear in much different circumstances than the day-to-day stuff. That would be "being seen as a woman". Dressing as ordinary women, we would all be wearing a lot of "male-looking clothes, and therefore there wouldn't be much in the way of "crossdressing". . Emulating a woman is something else, something that any male over 6 or so is going to have difficulty doing simply because we a socialized so differently that it would be nearly impossible to do. I don't think any amount of hormones or surgery is going to have any material effect in the "head department".
Thanks for letting use your words to make a point.

[Tricia Lee]

I can't muster any sympathy.

If it was acceptable for me to simply wear whatever women's-style clothes I wanted, I might never have attempted to go the whole nine-yards dressing enfemme. The fact is, I grew up with the idea ingrained in my mind that the *only* way I could ever wear women's clothes in public is if I would not be perceived as a man. Passing was/is the only means by which it seemed I could ever be comfortable dressed in public.

For women it is the complete opposite. I'm not even talking about FtM's. Regular women can wear *any* item of men's clothing *anywhere*, and not raise a single eyebrow. I think FtM's have it a lot easier for that reason. They can wear whatever they want. They can even present completely as a man, and AFAIK be completely secure that they won't be hassled or looked down on. I say that based on my observations here in Podunk Indiana. I see women daily presenting almost entirely if not completely as a male. I'm not sure they even officially consider themselves transgendered or not, but the resulting appearance wouldn't be any different if they did.

One example. I work with a woman who wears guy jeans, a guy polo shirt, and hiking boots every day. She has a men's haircut and unisex wire framed glasses. She wears no makeup and no jewelry, not even earrings. While it's fairly obvious that she is a woman due to her slight frame, she displays no hint of femininity whatsoever, either in her appearance or actions.

I as a man could never do the same thing. That is, show up to work in women's clothes and shoes, but otherwise male in appearance. I'm not even talking a short skirt and high heels; anything remotely feminine would be rejected.

While I get the OP's point in general, I say if you wear something that came out of a men's department, you are indeed crossdressing. You just don't think of it that way because there is no stigma attached to it.

[Daintre]

It could be said that if you are buying and dressing in jeans, flip flops and T shirts that were made for women and sold in ladies stores then you are cross dressing. Women who buy and wear the same items from the same stores are just buying clothes.

[docrobbysherry]

Sandra is right on the mark from my point of view. I wear womens clothing, but I also wear makeup, breast forms, and other foundation enhancements because I want to appear to be a woman. I do not want to appear to be a man in clothing normally worn by women. This whole issue of being defined as a crossdresser confuses the issue. Crossdressing is what I do because I want to be seen as a woman. It is not about the clothes.

I'm a crossdresser because I want to be seen as a woman, NOT as a man in woman's clothing.
And, it IS all about the clothes!:D

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Wow, interesting Sandra. My ex could wear pants and jeans well and she liked them because her work required modesty and she was relaxed whilst wearing them. I liked them because they hung beautifully on her and I never thought of her as a male. I also like a nice pair of loose wide legged pants as well as jeans because they allow me to feel free or hugged.
I just think that the public accepts a female dressed in pants more than a man dressed in a skirt but I must own up, I forgot about FtM and their problems. Honestly, I never thought about FtM being still treated as female, not male. Crikey, I feel a bit subdued now. Apologies to anyone If any of my replies appear or have been taken as condescending to FtM. Sincere apolgies.

[Sue101]

I will say again, I don't think most men that cross dress to pass as women would really have ventured into it if it was not for the fact we males ARE limited in what we can wear. I agree very much. Male crossdressers are being singled out because societal prejudice forces many to emulate women because we dont feel right being seen as a man in a dress. Remove the prejudice and stigma and we would end up with new gnerations of men naturally integrating feminine clothing into their presentation just as women do with men's fashion.

Either all men and women are crossdressing and none of us are. I dont like how people want to distance women's use of male clothing and claim it is something completely different. It isn't, it the just the prejudice that creates the gap and resulting differing behaviors.

I also like the comment about venting. Why is it that men cannot vent their fustrations and not be called out on it? It is another double standard.

[Joanne f]

Now this is were unlike a lot i believe there is a difference in cross dressing and transgender and it is not necessarily right to put it all under the transgender category , technically speaking anyone who wears clothes designed for the opposite gender is cross dressing although these lines are becoming more blurred with modern fashions .
If you wish to dress to present as, or pass as, or want to, or you do feel like the opposite gender then you are into transgender, it is not so much as what you are wearing but why you are wearing it that counts in my opinion because you can now do away with the technicality of cross dressing if you are just enjoying wearing the clothes that was originally designed for the opposite gender as your intention is not to cross genders.

[Sue101]

It is a good distinction Joanne - crossdressers and gendercrossers. They are not the same at all.

One more comment about clothes themselves. All clothes send out messages and statements about who you are, your status and which group you want to be associated with. Part of the message is gender. Saying that selling male clothing in a women's store changes the gender message is wrong, the assocaition remains intact. That is the whole point, it is a statement by women that they are on a par with men. If a department store began selling dresses in the men's section, even if the dresses were alterered to fit men's bodies, nobody would claim the female gender message inherent in the dress suddenly vanishes into thin air.

I get that women dont think about this when buying a pair of slacks, they dont have to since society allows women to express a degree of masculinity. It is a right of expression that women take for granted which does not exist for men so we do have to think about it.

So for those who are not gendercrossers, the difference in choosing to wear clothes of the opposite gender is in the inequality of social acceptance.

[Jill Devine]

Sandra, for me the big gripe is the FREEDOM women have when it comes to dressing. They can wear what they want and present themselves as they please.

While I like playing the female role once in a while, truthfully, I just like the clothing. It's comfortable. But heading out the front door as a male in a skirt attracts a million times more attention than me getting fully dressed up to look female.

[Sandra]

Well I got your attention, I've never known a thread of mine reach two pages :D



Most of you on here


Ok read the above comment I made in the opening post,see I didn't say all of you but most. I know that there is plenty of members here who just like to wear the clothing and have no intentions of trying to emulate a woman.



Hey Sandra,
Just for my benefit, would you have any stats on FtMs? Like what is the incidence in the US. for example? I would think it not as prevalent as MtFs, especially so here in Australia. The number of boys that desire to be girls is overwhelming. Or is it ??
Jannine. x

Jannine I don't have any stats for you....but one thing this forum used to have a lot of FtMs who posted regular, what happened to them...most stopped posting because they were called girls and not treated in the gender they portrayed and was not taken seriously.



I think FtM's have it a lot easier for that reason. They can wear whatever they want. They can even present completely as a man, and AFAIK be completely secure that they won't be hassled or looked down on.



Really you should talk to some of the FtMs on this forum and see what they have to say about that.


Some (not all) of the members on this forum still have the impression that just because a woman wears trousers/pants and I mean those that are made for the female form are still crossdressing, when we're not and this seems a hard point to get across. I guess it's just something that some of us will just differ on no matter what is said.

Thanks for all your replies :)

[Sara Jessica]

Some (not all) of the members on this forum still have the impression that just because a woman wears trousers/pants and I mean those that are made for the female form are still crossdressing, when we're not and this seems a hard point to get across. I guess it's just something that some of us will just differ on no matter what is said.

Sandra, while I don't doubt what you are saying, I cannot fathom why anyone would think that a woman wearing pants is in any way, shape or form crossdressing. My wife wears pants often and there'd be heck to pay if anyone accused her of crossdressing. That would be ridiculous. Some things in life are givens. This is one of them.

And as has been said before, technically wearng clothing intended for the opposite gender is crossdressing. Throwing out underlying motivations (how one identifies, degree of feminine or masculine emulation, etc) and no matter how you slice it, a man in a dress is crossdressing. This is simply how society sees things, it is what it is. While styles in certain circles are starting to blur the line between masculine & feminine, until the day comes when a guy can pick up a dress in the same department as he could buy his suit, crossdressing will be an appropriate description.

Take it a step further. There are differences between genders that not only are embraced by society but are hard-wired in terms of what most men and women find attractive in the opposite gender. Just because if it were up to me that I'd be on the other team doesn't mean I reject the differences in the sexes. This is why I'd be shocked if the day comes any time soon where fashion choices broaden signficantly into what is typically reserved for women.

[sissystephanie]

I said it already, but I will say it again! If you wear any clothing made for the opposite sex, you are crossdressing. That is true whether you are male or female! And the reason for wearing the clothes makes no difference! Yes, some women do wear mens pants and shirts. They are crossdressing, but they get away with it because the public is used to that. Women started wearing pants more during World War II because they were working at jobs that pretty much required it. The public is not used to seeing men wearing skirts or dresses, so they don't accept that from men!

[Tina B.]

Well I have to disagree with you Sandra. I agree if you wear a pair of pants from the womens section, that is sill to call it crossdressing. But if you wear your boy friends shirt, or pants, then you are cross dressing, not that you are a cross dresser, but you are cross dressing. The words cross dresser has nothing in it's name that speaks of intent, only the action of wearing a garment of the opposite sex.
Tina B.

[Anne Elizabeth]

Right on Sandra. I agree with you 100%. When a person wears the clothing that is gender specific for the other gender then they are crossrdressing. Therfore when I wear womens jeans cut for women I am crossdressing. Unfortunately In my mind, and through out my life I have felt that I should have been born a female and as much as I tried to be a man and bury it it always comes back. Thus said, I don't think that If I had been able to wear anything for example dresses or other female clothes without repriasal from those that know me and tohse that don't know me it still would have not made a difference in my thinking that I should have or wish I was born a female. Clothes don't make the person but without the clothes i feel lost.

[Mary Morgan]

As I read many of these responses, I am made keenly aware of the injustices we have inflicted upon each other, intended or not. Expressions such as " not allowed to wear pants", and "fighting for the right to ..." As a society we have spent so much time judging and being judged, limited and constrained and to what end? The world didn't end when women started dressing the way they wanted to, and they shouldn't have had to fight to do so. How anyone dresses, or more accurately as in my case, how anyone presents themselves, is a personal choice that does no harm to anyone. We are a diverse lot because we are by nature. It is hard for me to understand why anyone would want to constrain anyone else unless some harm is being done. So what is the harm?

[Pythos]

^ I second that!!^

Very well stated. But it is a two way street. GGs have got to stop judging men as less than men if they are not wearing slacks, tuxs, or three piece suits (once again not all do that)

Also, here is another question.

Why are you reacting so badly to the term crossdressing? What is so bad about that term? Hmmmm?

Me thinks there is an underlying tone here that may be that there is indeed something wrong with crossdressing.

[docrobbysherry]

^ I second that!!^

Very well stated. But it is a two way street. GGs have got to stop judging men as less than men if they are not wearing slacks, tuxs, or three piece suits (once again not all do that)

No, they don't, Pythos! Women, and ALL of us for that matter, like to see folks we find ATTRACTIVE! I believe that's been proven in a number of studies. So, if MOST women find men attractive in jeans, T shirt, and work boots, or a 3 piece suit, that's just the way things r.
However, that DOESN'T mean by dressing more and more fem in public, like u and others here do, that won't CHANGE. Because, it IS! Unfortunately, not fast enuff to suit many of us!

[Sandra]

Why are you reacting so badly to the term crossdressing? What is so bad about that term? Hmmmm?

If that is point at me then I'll answer, I am not reacting to the term just being judged as a crossdresser when I'm not.



Me thinks there is an underlying tone here that may be that there is indeed something wrong with crossdressing.

Again if this is pointed at me...WTF do you mean? I have supported not only my SO but many members on this and other sites, not only through the web but in real life. Don't judge me unless you know me which you don't.

[Pythos]

Whoa Sandra.

In the technical aspect women that wear pants ARE crossdressing. Pants from the get go were for men. They were from riding breeches, and were for horse riding, a thing that for the most part only men did.

The "WTF do you mean?" was really uncalled for. I was not tearing into you. But your post makes it seem you don't want women that wear the clothing of men to be subject to the same thing as men that wear the clothing of women. Have you not seen how girls and women can indeed wear stuff from the men's aisles, and yet not face ridicule, laughter, and a possible trip to the house of pain? Look at the ridicule that one male clothing designer who IS trying to make skirt for men (marc Jacobs), just read what some have said about him. Would a female designer making a rather masculine looking female pantsuit face the same? I think not.

As far as wearing skirts fitted for men. For most cases skirts fit men the same as women. There is no inseam as there are on pants that is one of the main factors, along with the extra area for hips when it comes to women's pants. Leather skirts are also in need of some alterations when it comes to reducing the area of hip, when worn by men.

If a man, wears a dress that HE MADE HIMSELF, which means it was meant from the get go as a male garment, oooo, great example, my Mana Cosplay. IT IS A GARMENT MEANT FOR A MALE. A) it is based off the stage costume of a male rock artist B) that male artists has NEVER identified as something other than androgynous male C) this dress was meant from the get go as a male outfit, it was never meant to be worn by a female. It is a very formal outfit. Does that mean I could wear it as a male to a formal event without drawing ridicule? Perhaps some events, but certainly not all. Would I be called a cross dresser, EVEN if the hosiery, and footwear that I wore was bought from the male section?

I think there is a high chance of that. Why? Because I am wearing a dress, hosiery, and heeled boots. Every item I would be in would be made for and marketed for men, and yet I would still be labeled crossdressing. Reason? Because I am wearing a dress, hosiery and heels. I am not even considering how my face and hair would be done, most likely natural hair with light makeup.

If a woman wore an outfit consisting of pants, dress shoes, and socks, and presented as a female, would she be called a crossdresser? Nope, in fact our secretary of state does that everyday. But she is wearing pants, dress shoes and socks (well not sure about the socks).

What we all need to get away from is the negative connotation of the word "crossdresser" and just accept it. There is nothing wrong with it, it hurts no one, and can be very stylish.

[TGMarla]

Now, now....let's all simmer down a bit here.

Viva le difference!

I am a crossdresser. There's no way around it. What I do isn't even blurring the lines between the sexes. When I dress, I'm not trying to present as a male even a little bit. I wear prosthetic breasts, and hip/butt enhancers, a wig, makeup..... My wife wore a pair of pants to work today, and she's not crossdressing. The tired argument that some of the members here keep on beating to death about women technically being crossdressers is invalid and nonsensical.
:dh:


There are differences between genders that not only are embraced by society but are hard-wired in terms of what most men and women find attractive in the opposite gender. Just because if it were up to me that I'd be on the other team doesn't mean I reject the differences in the sexes.

Well-put, Sara. Although I love wearing pretty dresses and high heels, etc., I'm still thrilled about the differences between the genders that we grew up accepting as societal norms. In fact, I don't want there to come a time when it's considered okay for men to wear some of this stuff. I'm fine if crossdressing becomes accepted, but I don't want us to all melt into some androgynous society where the gender lines are so blurred, one can no longer tell the difference between men and women.

When I dress, I'm emulating women, not just dressing like them. And should there come a day when crossdressing is accepted at large (not holding my breath here!), I'd wear all my stuff out and about in public without fear of reprisal. But I'd still be a crossdresser.

My wife doesn't try to hide her breasts (good luck with that!), or place a prosthetic in her pants. She doesn't hide her hair, wear false moustaches, or hide her pretty fingernails. She's all woman, and never attempts to crossdress. Me? Different story.

Think about it. It's the attraction we feel towards these lovely feminine garments that brought many of us to this point. And those of us who feel that we're females on the inside still opt to wear the pretty clothes. Do you really want to live in a society where the traditional gender presentation is gone? What would be the fun in that? As a man, I don't really want to go out somewhere wearing a frilly blouse or a skirt. I greatly enjoy wearing such things, but I want to keep these things reserved for women. If I feel like wearing them (which I do!), I'll pop in the breasts, break out the wig, and do the whole female emulation thing. I like those things just as much anyway. Let's keep our gender differences, and retain the fun in getting all dolled up. Once it's mainstream, and everyone is wearing the same thing, I think the attraction to it will be gone.

[Pythos]

My wife wore a pair of pants to work today, and she's not crossdressing. The tired argument that some of the members here keep on beating to death about women technically being crossdressers is invalid and nonsensical.

No, what is nonsensical is the idea that there is something wrong with being labled a crossdresser. That is what makes no sense.


I greatly enjoy wearing such things, but I want to keep these things reserved for women

I could not disagree with someone more. Great maker You sound just like those women out there that say "leave the dresses to the women" or "leave the skinny jeans to the girls". Much like the men long ago said "leave the work to the men" or "leave the trouser wearing to the gentlement".

ALL of those statements are sexist at their very heart.

At one time men also dressed very very elegantly, heels, stocking, and all. But somehow those styles are now forbidden to men.

I think most here could really benefit from a little research into style history. Many here would be amazed at how far down the dull road male fashion went.

Now, looking like a woman by wearing things that change your body shape, and taking on feminine voice and mannerisms, that should be for the ladies, though if someone crosses those lines they still SHOULD not have their well being threatened.

You do know Viva La Differance was a cry by men who wanted women to remain property right? Take a look at the history of that statement. It was also one of the mottos used against women that wanted to wear pants, in France. A country that still has a law on the books forbidding women from wearing pants....that is largely ignored.

[suchacutie]

OMG...what an amazing thread! Thank you Sandra. We needed to get this out into the open, no matter how much we will assuredly not understand each other (what else is new? ROFL). So here goes:

This thread has no answer because a) no one will agree what "crossdresser" means, b) society is not commutative in dressing norms (meaning that while it is acceptable, currently, for women to wear what they will, men (usually) cannot do the same without ridicule. Grousing about it won't change that, activism will), c) for those who are truly crossing the gender barrier and present themselves as feminine because that's who they truly feel they are, the word crossdresser is somehow lacking in conveying the depth of their transition.

The overwhelming majority of us on this site are transgendered, and we occupy every part of the spectrum of transgenderism. Let's face it, that existence is a struggle, no matter what part of the spectrum you occupy. When a non-transgendered GG wears "male" clothing it has absolutely nothing to do with transgenderism. The word "crossdressing", for all it's lack of clarity, has always been associated with what we now call transgenderism. Thus, logically, when a non-transgendered GG wears "male" clothing, it's a fashion choice and that's all. So, my fellow genetic males, we can't do that. Let's get the chip off our shoulders, embrace the GGs who are helping us make the transition that we need, and move on. If we want society to change, then work to change it, and let's not harass the GGs who DID work hard to change social norms. They deserve the results that they worked very hard to obtain.

Is it going to be harder for us to effect a change? Maybe, but it won't happen by simply complaining.

Just my 2 cents.

me and Tina

[TGMarla]

You do know Viva La Differance was a cry by men who wanted women to remain property right?

No, that saying was conjured up by French men to let the world know why they were considered among the most amorous people in the world, and meant to convey that what men found so alluring about women was the fact that they are women, part and parcel, and that was the great delight in all of it. Do not attempt to teach me your narrow social history. I know history quite well already, as it has been one of my life's pursuits to study it. Yes, men for eons did attempt (and still do) to subjugate women. But they didn't stuff women into dresses simply because they felt that that would keep them down. Women opted to wear them because they were women. Society, until the 20th century, did not require women to wear anything else. It was only the advent of the industrial revolution, and the driving of women into the workforce (especially in America and England during WWII), that brought about the necessity of women wearing pants to begin with. Viva le Differance simply means that there are differences between men and women, and that these differences are wonderful.

And yeah, there's still a law against women wearing pants in France, but no one enforces it. Take any state in the U.S. and you'll find archaic laws on the books that no one pays any attention to. So what?

If you want to run around as a man wearing clothing that is traditionally reserved for women, more power to you. My opinions are not meant to try and take that from you. I choose not to, preferring myself to look like a woman when I wear this stuff.


Great maker You sound just like those women out there that say "leave the dresses to the women" or "leave the skinny jeans to the girls".

How 'bout we leave the dresses to the women and the crossdressers? And why would I want to leave the shape-changing stuff for the women? They (for the most part) already have the shape they need. I don't.

[Debra Russell]

Marla -- your response is just how I feel !! I think it's all about how we "present" our self, I am a crossdresser -- want to present as female. Women can wear anything and not be labled as a crossdresser but they can emulate and present as male and the label fits. A truly feminine GG can wear anything and still present as female; we as male, on the other hand are not so well up to the task!

[TGMarla]

Clearly, there are two or more schools of thought going on here. One group wears feminine attire, and attempts to actually look like a female when doing so. The other wears feminine attire and makes no attempt to hide the fact that they are males. I'm good with both, but I opt for the former over the latter.

Like I stated before, I like the fact that there are differences between the genders. I don't much care for androgyny, and I prefer it that boys and girls look different, act differently, and usually dress differently. I know there are those here who do like androgyny, and see it as the wave of the future. I don't subscribe to that point of view, that's all.

[Sue101]

The overwhelming majority of us on this site are transgendered, and we occupy every part of the spectrum of transgenderism. Let's face it, that existence is a struggle, no matter what part of the spectrum you occupy. When a non-transgendered GG wears "male" clothing it has absolutely nothing to do with transgenderism. There are many crossdressers who are adamant that they are not transgendered. Why are they not treated the same way as non-transgendered GGs? You cannot have it both ways.

I know of crossdressers who do not visit this site precisely because it is dominated by those who crossdress for transgendered reasons which they do not relate to.

The whole theory that women are not crossdressing when wearing mens clothing rests on narrowly defining crossdressing as presenting as the opposite sex. But when you examine crossdressers outside this narrow definition the theory falls apart. The only real difference between non transgendered crossdressers and GGs is time. GG crossdressing has been socially accepted for decades so that GGs no longer have to think about gender when choosing their clothes. That was not the case a generation ago.

Should non transgendered men who crossdress also be mad that they are called crossdressers?

[ReineD]

I know of crossdressers who do not visit this site precisely because it is dominated by those who crossdress for transgendered reasons which they do not relate to.

Then why would a birth male feel better about himself when he wears feminine clothing? To just say, "I like the clothes" doesn't explain much, IMO. The way we all choose to present ourselves is very telling of our internal landscapes.

Maybe my views that the majority of men who wear feminine fashions are transgender have been influenced by the majority posts in this forum; but even in real life at the TG support group my SO belongs to, the members there are most definitely presenting as women, and not as guys wearing skirts.

Other than perhaps fetish CDs, how many men do you (or others ... I'm not trying to single you out) know personally who wear dresses, and what percentage are not attempting to present as women? I'm guessing it would be very small.

[JohnH]

Should non transgendered men who crossdress also be mad that they are called crossdressers?

Absolutely.

Why should a man be called a crossdresser when he substitutes a denim skirt for shorts with otherwise standard male attire - T shirt with men's shoes? It feels nice not having the wedge of cloth against one's external privates. When I wear such an outfit I am in no way, shape, or form trying to pass as a woman.

When I wear such an outfit I have the feeling of a cis-male. Otherwise I would wear a dress.

John

[ReineD]

Why should a man be called a crossdresser when he substitutes a denim skirt for shorts with otherwise standard male attire - T shirt with men's shoes? It feels nice not having the wedge of cloth against one's external privates.

I think you are rationalizing. If a guy merely doesn't want the wedgie feel, he can purchase looser pants, in less stiff fabrics than blue jeans. Dockers makes them, in microfiber fabrics that are considerably softer.

And granted, the guys who do wear decidedly male looking skirts (there are not many, believe me) may fit your description/justification, and I also would not consider them to be transgender.

But again, why would a guy possibly want to wear an article of women's clothing, the girlier the better, if not to express a degree of TG identity? What you are saying just doesn't apply to the majority of the people here.

[JohnH]

Reine,

You do not have external genitalia as a genetic woman. So how do you know how the wedge of cloth feels against them? No matter how soft the cloth is there is still that feeling. As a matter of fact when a man purchases high-quality pants one of the considerations is which side does he tuck in his testicles.

As far as basketball shorts with the low crotch I think they are an abomination in how they look.

When I wear what I described in the last posting I really am not in a girlie mood.

I'm glad you see my point. If you want to see a forum where there are cis-males that wear kilts, skirts, and dresses you might want to check out

www.skirtcafe.org .

John

[Stephanie47]

Sandra, this is pretty heady stuff! Here I am on a Monday morning sitting at a computer screen wearing a very attractive black and white dress, nude sheer hosiery, white bra and panties, a white slip, white garter girdle, black two inch heels and a wig. Why? I went to wikipedia to read the 'accepted' definition of a cross-dresser. I've decided I am NOT a cross-dresser. I have decided I am a multi-gendered individual. I am not suffering from schizophrenia. I am well aware I am a genetic male. I have all the male plumbing. I enjoy doing male things-things my wife perceives as male things. I also enjoy doing female things that many people ascribe only to females. So be it. When I want to do female things, I feel most comfortable dressing as a female. En femme I forget I am a male.

Why? Well, after forty years of doing male things outside the home- go to war, get blown away, work at a 8-4 job I did not like to support a wife and children, mow the law, etc, I developed a liking to cooking and baking, tending flower beds. Maybe, I perceived female 'things' as less stressful. My wife will blast me with what the hell do you think I do when you're at work- give birth to kids, wash diapers, clean the house, etc. She's right! I'm right! Forget taking care of the kids and diapers. Nobody like that.

So when my mind wants to act out in a womanly way, I act out en femme. I present as a female during those times, because my mind is en femme also. I am not a male wearing a dress for physical comfort. I am a female with male plumbing.

PS: As a male or a female I like football, so I think I will get a feminine cut football jersey I see on those hot looking chicks on television commercials. No cheese head tho!

[Jennifer Devine]

Couldn't agree with you more Sandra! I don't know why people put so many labels on us and judge us the way they do.
We are all people at the end of the day no matter what we choose to wear and i just wish that more people would realise it.

[Melinda G]

If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up. Every now and then someone comes in here with some lame explanation why it's OK for women to dress like men. Whatever women do is OK. Whatever men do is wrong! I'm not buying it! :straightface:

[MonicaTC]

Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not.
1. We are not trying to present as a male unless the woman is FtM
2. We don’t go around wearing binders
3. We don’t stuff our trousers
Basically we just wear the clothes that are designed for us. Some will say what about wearing our SO’s top etc, yes some may wear those clothes but again we are not trying to emulate a male.

Most of you on here are trying to emulate a female and this is where the difference is, you want/try to be as near dam it female, whereas a female just wears the clothes and still presents as a woman.

Of course all of this goes out of the window if you are FtM, and they have just as many problems as an MtF has if not more. I just wonder of you realise how much anger and hurt some of these comments cause the FtMs, becasue a lot on here still class the FtMs as females and not males.

Nicely said Sandra. I can hear my SO, Ronnie, roaring with agreement too.

[ReineD]

Reine,

You do not have external genitalia as a genetic woman. So how do you know how the wedge of cloth feels against them? No matter how soft the cloth is there is still that feeling.

With all due respect, then why hasn't there been a massive rebellion among men against wearing pants, in much the same way that women in the 50s stopped wearing skirts for day-to-day stuff? Had this happened, you can be sure that the fashion industry would have responded. In fact, there have been attempts by some designers to provide man skirts, but they've been rejected by males (presumably because they didn't feel the necessity of wearing them), and by CDers because the styles aren't feminine enough.

You are in the minority, and unless I am misreading your posts, you come off as if the average guy feels the same way you do. I'm sure that men who are not interested in presenting as women can and do find clothing that is comfortable. :)

Also, I can turn the tables and talk about the constraining feeling of wearing a bra. A lot of GGs will agree with me, yet (excluding the F2Ms), we don't walk around presenting as males, even if we choose to not wear the bra.


If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up.

Hmmm. You really thing so? :D There are women who wear skirts. I even wear them sometimes. They certainly are in the media and in all the fashion catalogues as well. I don't buy this as the main reason a CDer chooses to dress. But, if it's for fetish reasons, then it makes sense.

[JohnH]

Every now and then someone comes in here with some lame explanation why it's OK for women to dress like men. Whatever women do is OK. Whatever men do is wrong! I'm not buying it!


Melinda,

I feel the same way. The only dresses my wife wears is a sun dress that is not intended to be worn outside the house. Otherwise she wears only pants and shorts. If she would dress more lady-like I would be content to simply wear my denim skirts with otherwise men's articles of clothing.

I do not bash women for wearing pants and shorts. I only wish society would be more tolerant of men wearing skirts, dresses, heels, and makeup, particularly when they are not trying to pass as women.

Reine,

I think what is going to happen is that instead of men gracefully integrating skirts and dresses into their masculine wardrobes is there is going to be an explosive reaction against the narrow constraints of male fashions. This will be in the form of crossdressing becoming an acceptable alternative for males for society in general.

John (Johanna)

[Sandra]

If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up.

Oh don't make me laugh, now it's our fault because we don't dress like you've said... what a load of :censor:




Every now and then someone comes in here with some lame explanation why it's OK for women to dress like men. Whatever women do is OK. Whatever men do is wrong! I'm not buying it! :straightface:

I haven't said what men do is wrong...each has their own choice of how they dress and what they wear.

[Nigella]

If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up. Every now and then someone comes in here with some lame explanation why it's OK for women to dress like men. Whatever women do is OK. Whatever men do is wrong! I'm not buying it! :straightface:

What a load of absolute Bull Poop

TBPH a gg is :dh: when they try to give an opinion on their mode of dress. Because some MEN can't accept the fact that they can dress how they wish, in whatever they want to, there will be :flyingpig: before they will accept that a woman is not a crossdresser by nature of the fact that they are not wearing clothing normally associated with the opposite gender.

Why is that you ask, simple it is now accepted, by years of fighting for the right to have the clothing they wear accepted as normal attire. When MEN get off their Fat backsides and fight for the same recognition, then they will lose the title of "crossdresser", until that day, don't paint everyone with the same brush.

[JulieK1980]

I'm always a little amused and a lot befuddled whenever I see a thread like this. I highly doubt any of the CD's on here that say women are crossdressing by wearing pants are attempting to demean or even anger women. I suspect its more an intense frustration at their own inability to express themselves in society. Fashion always does 180's if you follow history, at one time leggings and heels were all the rage for men. Now they aren't. I strongly suspect if pants were considered a feminine article of clothing, us crossdressers would be wearing pants. It's just the nature of the beast.

I read comments online on a daily basis that appear "wrong" however, declarations, ultimatums, or belittling their idea is not really going to effectively squash it. Women fought for their right to wear pants. We as crossdressers have not, and thus their is frustration and sometimes a little jealousy that women can and do wear what they choose. Again I doubt the view is meant to be at all malevolent, and if it is, that idea is most clearly in the minority.

I really don't understand the offense taken to being accused of being a crossdresser though. Why does it matter if some stranger online calls women crossdressers? Is there shame in that title? Or is it simply, that you are so caught up in correctly pigeonholing groups of people that the mis-labeling is angering/frustrating you?

Push comes to shove, we are all PEOPLE first and foremost, and range from every possible combination of background, personality, issues, strengths, weaknesses, fetishes, habits, and behaviors. Save the labels for cans of food.

[Mary Morgan]

I'm always a little amused and a lot befuddled whenever I see a thread like this. I highly doubt any of the CD's on here that say women are crossdressing by wearing pants are attempting to demean or even anger women. I suspect its more an intense frustration at their own inability to express themselves in society. Fashion always does 180's if you follow history, at one time leggings and heels were all the rage for men. Now they aren't. I strongly suspect if pants were considered a feminine article of clothing, us crossdressers would be wearing pants. It's just the nature of the beast.

I read comments online on a daily basis that appear "wrong" however, declarations, ultimatums, or belittling their idea is not really going to effectively squash it. Women fought for their right to wear pants. We as crossdressers have not, and thus their is frustration and sometimes a little jealousy that women can and do wear what they choose. Again I doubt the view is meant to be at all malevolent, and if it is, that idea is most clearly in the minority.

I really don't understand the offense taken to being accused of being a crossdresser though. Why does it matter if some stranger online calls women crossdressers? Is there shame in that title? Or is it simply, that you are so caught up in correctly pigeonholing groups of people that the mis-labeling is angering/frustrating you?

Push comes to shove, we are all PEOPLE first and foremost, and range from every possible combination of background, personality, issues, strengths, weaknesses, fetishes, habits, and behaviors. Save the labels for cans of food.

But did the men of yesteryear wear breast forms and makeup? I think the point is that for many, it is not just cross dressing and it is not just about the clothes. You have to ask yourself where you are in the spectrum and if you simply want to wear a dress and heels, then go for it cause that is in my view crossdressing. If you want to appear to be a woman, then I think it goes a bit farther than that. Nothing wrong with either. Just my two cents.

[ReineD]

I really don't understand the offense taken to being accused of being a crossdresser though. Why does it matter if some stranger online calls women crossdressers? Is there shame in that title? Or is it simply, that you are so caught up in correctly pigeonholing groups of people that the mis-labeling is angering/frustrating you?

Because it isn't who we are. If someone called be a lesbian, I'd correct them as well, even though I see nothing wrong with being a lesbian. In fact, if I were I would be quite militant about it.

I think that most of the GGs here are invested in supporting the community, since it is a way to support their partners indirectly. And when there are scads of CDers who minimize their motives by insisting on believing that what they do is just about the clothes (which is implied when they say that women CD when they wear pants), it perpetuates a sort of denial about their reasons for dressing. If that makes sense. And I don't know about you, but it disturbs me to see people in denial who perpetuate a falsehood, especially in forums where there are many newbies (in addition to their GG SOs), who come here looking for guidance or answers. And that's not even mentioning the huge numbers of people who do read this forum and who are not registered as members.

If scads of GGs should come to this forum and keep insisting that all CDers are gay, despite persistent explanations to the contrary, it wouldn't come off very well here and there would be just as much impatience among the CDers every time they read such a comment.


You know what bugs me the most? The CDers who come to threads like these and don't even bother reading the posts from the GGs and consider what is said, and who continue to perpetuate the nonsense. :eek: lol

[Jonianne]

.....Most of you on here are trying to emulate a female and this is where the difference is, you want/try to be as near dam it female, whereas a female just wears the clothes and still presents as a woman....

Sandra, you are exactly right.

To be considered a crossdresser, a person must wear the cloths of the opposite sex and have at least one other factor of having either a transgender desire (presenting as opposite sex, identifying with opposite sex, etc) or a fetish fantasy, or both.

A female wearing mens pants for welding or other work - not crossdressing.

A female wearing a necessary male American football uniform, to play in the game - not crossdressing.

A Navy Seal wearing pantyhose trudging through the swamps of S. America to keep the water critters from going where they do not belong - not crossdressing.

There is an infinate list of things that people have to wear for the proper occasion and purpose, that was originially designed for the opposite sex, that would NOT be considered crossdressing.

There are also plenty of women's articles, accessorys and jewelry that men can and do wear that is not crossdressing. Obviously the public wouldn't see it that way, but males could wear functional skirts and dresses and not really be crossdressing. In some traditional Greek orthodox venues, the males wear some of the most beautiful dresses and skirts.

My point is, crossdressing is in the heart or mind, not specificly what you wear.

[JohnH]

But did the men of yesteryear wear breast forms and makeup?

I believe there was a time when men were the ones who wore makeup and not the women. However, I am not aware of any era where men wearing breast forms was considered mainstream.

Good posting Jonianne.

John (Johanna)

[JulieK1980]

Because it isn't who we are. If someone called be a lesbian, I'd correct them as well, even though I see nothing wrong with being a lesbian. In fact, if I were I would be quite militant about it.

I think that most of the GGs here are invested in supporting the community, since it is a way to support their partners indirectly. And when there are scads of CDers who minimize their motives by insisting on believing that what they do is just about the clothes (which is implied when they say that women CD when they wear pants), it perpetuates a sort of denial about their reasons for dressing. If that makes sense. And I don't know about you, but it disturbs me to see people in denial who perpetuate a falsehood, especially in forums where there are many newbies (in addition to their GG SOs), who come here looking for guidance or answers. And that's not even mentioning the huge numbers of people who do read this forum and who are not registered as members.

If scads of GGs should come to this forum and keep insisting that all CDers are gay, despite persistent explanations to the contrary, it wouldn't come off very well here and there would be just as much impatience among the CDers every time they read such a comment.


You know what bugs me the most? The CDers who come to threads like these and don't even bother reading the posts from the GGs and consider what is said, and who continue to perpetuate the nonsense. :eek: lol

Granted. It just seems very peculiar to me. (It was a legitimate question, I really don't quite understand it.) As for the denial, perhaps I have a soft spot for that because I empathize and once had the very same perspective. I think it's a natural defense mechanism to a reality that is difficult for many of us to come to grips with. It took me decades to come to accept myself, and sometimes minimizing it when I was younger made it a little easier for me.


But did the men of yesteryear wear breast forms and makeup? I think the point is that for many, it is not just cross dressing and it is not just about the clothes. You have to ask yourself where you are in the spectrum and if you simply want to wear a dress and heels, then go for it cause that is in my view crossdressing. If you want to appear to be a woman, then I think it goes a bit farther than that. Nothing wrong with either. Just my two cents.


You missed my point. ;) My reference to that if it was "feminine" to wear pants, then we would wear pants is exactly what you just said. It goes deeper than the clothes.

[Leslie Langford]

Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not.
1. We are not trying to present as a male unless the woman is FtM
2. We don’t go around wearing binders
3. We don’t stuff our trousers
Basically we just wear the clothes that are designed for us. Some will say what about wearing our SO’s top etc, yes some may wear those clothes but again we are not trying to emulate a male.

Most of you on here are trying to emulate a female and this is where the difference is, you want/try to be as near dam it female, whereas a female just wears the clothes and still presents as a woman.

Of course all of this goes out of the window if you are FtM, and they have just as many problems as an MtF has if not more. I just wonder of you realise how much anger and hurt some of these comments cause the FtMs, becasue a lot on here still class the FtMs as females and not males.

Really???

Then help me understand the concept of "the boyfriend jacket", "boy-shorts", the line of women's underwear called "Jockey for Her" i.e. female versions of the ubiquitous "tighty-whiteys", why the garment that used to be called a "blouse" somehow morphed into becoming a "women's shirt", and why every once in a while designers like to bring out styles of women's shoes clearly meant to resemble men's brogues.

And why do businesswomen wear "power suits" to emulate men in the corporate world as a way to be taken more seriously, upwardly mobile, and career-oriented?

Why do some women like to wear men's ties as part of a mannish-looking outfit to make a fashion statement?

What was behind the masculine "Annie Hall" look that Diane Keaton popularized many years ago?

Why did pop singer Avril Lavigne raid Daddy's closet and steal his ties to go along with her tank tops and camouflage pants to create her unique edgy i.e. tough "rocker chick" style when she first started out? Girl power?

The truth is, women for reasons best known to themselves often like to wear masculine-themed clothes, and it is not only about their alleged comfort.

I'm not a psychologist, but I can't help but believe that there is an erotic component that causes them to favor wearing that type of clothing - perhaps a sub-conscious way of getting closer to their man (or being continuously reminded of his presence/existence) by feeling these clothes envelop them in the absence of actually being held in his strong masculine and protective arms. Isn't that also why so many vulnerable-feeling pregnant women like to wear their SO's dress shirts like nighties when there are plenty of specially designed maternity clothes around that will do the same job?

Isn't that why Barbra Streisand, in her song of many years ago entitled "Honey, Can I Put On Your Clothes?" sang, and I quote:

"Honey, honey, can I put on your clothes?
Because they feel so good
And they feel like you
Oh, won`t you please let me
Because they get to me
They touch me and then move me
I get to thinking I won`t be needin`
Anything more to keep me warm
I feel the feeling of you
All the way through
No other feeling will ever do

Honey, honey, can I put on your clothes?
Because they feel so good
And they feel like you
They`re just like old friends
When we`re together
They comfort me and soothe me
They`re not brand new
They`re a little worn through,
But they're comfy and roomy
They do something to me
And when I stay at home
And you`re far away
I won`t be lonely all through the day

Honey, honey, can I put on your clothes?
Because they feel so good
And they feel like you
I feel the feeling of you
All the day through
No other feeling will ever do

Honey, honey, can I put on your clothes?
Because they feel so good
And they feel like you...
Honey, honey, honey. . ."

Sure, this is a throwback to the days when the man was considered to be the protector of the "little woman", and it doesn't have much relevance in today's post-industrial Western world, nor day and age of women's liberation. But old gender roles and expectations die hard, and many women still expect men to hold doors open for them, give up their seats to them on public transportation, and pick up the restaurant tab even when they are fully self-sufficient and often earn more than the man.

So maybe women can continue to get away with wearing men's or mannish-styled clothes (or dress and act like tomboys) in today's society without being called crossdressers, even if we, as men, are still stigmatized for doing the same thing in reverse because we continue to live in a male-dominated and largely homophobic society where being perceived to be a "sissy" is a [I]bad thing, whereas for women to try to emulate men is considered to be a good thing.

But please don't try to tell me that for women to wear men's clothes (or feminized versions thereof) doesn't have an erotic component attached to that as well, and gives them a "kick" not unlike what we crossdressers experience when we cross the gender divide in the type of clothing we favor.

[Nigella]

OK for all of you who believe that Genetic Females are crossdressers simply because they wear an item of clothing normally asscociated with Genetic Males, try this for size, but before you do, be prepared for the consequences:

Get up right now from your computer, go to your SO or any other Genetic Female that is close to you and say " YOU WEAR TROUSERS, YOU ARE A CROSSDRESSER".

Then ask them if they wear them because they want to be a man, does it make them feel sexy, that is after you pick yourself off the floor.

[Sandra]

:Pullhair: :Pullhair:

[mistunderstood]

Being FTM I will tell you I wear men's clothes. If I wear female clothes I am cross dressing. I am not Female I am Male. But to me it is not about clothes it is about putting on the mask the world places on each and every one of us. The world wants us to but on the label of our birth. Women wear dresses boys wear pants. Yes women can wear pants and get away with it so what. Get over it. As MTF you have more research and better info on every aspect towards transitioning. As a FTM the transitioning info is not as known and surgery for the whole body is still in the early stages. Do I run around and complain? No I do what I have to make it through one day at a time. As for support system well there is not as much available. I am guessing for every one FTM there are maybe 9-10 MTF on this forum. As a MTF you have a big support in the Gay and Lesbian community. When a FTM comes out we are told we are sell outs and even have Lesbians act angry because we do not retain the appearance of being female. In a lot of the Gay community it is ok to be a Drag Queen even.
I wish we did not need labels but it is a hard habit to break. We all need to make a effort to drop the habit. We all have our problems. No one here has it easy.

[Kelly DeWinter]

:Pullhair: :Pullhair:

ROFL :^5::mods:

...............................

[Alice Torn]

Today, for the very first time, in probably a month or more, in these parts, I saw a lady come into Subway, in a pencil skirt, hose, and high heels. She was of a brown race, and I could see the little smile on her face, as if knowing she stood out, like an oasis in a desert! I really don't think most women even think about crossdressing, when they wear men
s clothes, BUT, those that buck the masses, and trends, and decide to be different, do dare to wear skirts dresses, hos, and DARE to show their legs!

[az_azeel]

I really don't think most women even think about crossdressing, when they wear men
s clothes, ,

Geez.. another one... maybe the penny will drop.. at some point..... when woman wear pants they are not crossdressing and are not wearing mens clothes..... read the point of this thread... please... next time i will delete the post....

[TGMarla]

If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up.

Oh, what a load of horse poop! It would more likely induce more men to try on a dress now and then. And women who wear pants are dressed as women, for the most part.

Reine, I agree with most everything you said. As usual, you are a voice of well-thought-out reasoning. Others would do well to pay attention to what you say.

Leslie, excellent post. Whereas Sandra's original post has tons of merit, one cannot ignore and negate the obvious trend as you have presented it. It speaks to a double-standard, but it is a double-standard that will now and forever be ignored by society at large. So while you present a very valid point, the point is moot.

[Melinda G]

Really???

Then help me understand the concept of "the boyfriend jacket", "boy-shorts", the line of women's underwear called "Jockey for Her" i.e. female versions of the ubiquitous "tighty-whiteys", why the garment that used to be called a "blouse" somehow morphed into becoming a "women's shirt", and why every once in a while designers like to bring out styles of women's shoes clearly meant to resemble men's brogues.

And why do businesswomen wear "power suits" to emulate men in the corporate world as a way to be taken more seriously, upwardly mobile, and career-oriented?

Why do some women like to wear men's ties as part of a mannish-looking outfit to make a fashion statement?

What was behind the masculine "Annie Hall" look that Diane Keaton popularized many years ago?

Why did pop singer Avril Lavigne raid Daddy's closet and steal his ties to go along with her tank tops and camouflage pants to create her unique edgy i.e. tough "rocker chick" style when she first started out? Girl power?

The truth is, women for reasons best known to themselves often like to wear masculine-themed clothes, and it is not only about their alleged comfort.

I'm not a psychologist, but I can't help but believe that there is an erotic component that causes them to favor wearing that type of clothing - perhaps a sub-conscious way of getting closer to their man (or being continuously reminded of his presence/existence) by feeling these clothes envelop them in the absence of actually being held in his strong masculine and protective arms. Isn't that also why so many vulnerable-feeling pregnant women like to wear their SO's dress shirts like nighties when there are plenty of specially designed maternity clothes around that will do the same job?


Thanks for illustrating the double standard we all know exists. Women are free to wear pants, shirts, ties and mens shoes, and boy haircuts, and no one sees anything wrong it. And they do not have to present as men to be accepted. They are clearly presenting male traits however, for whatever reason, career advancement, attitude, etc.

But if I enjoy the feel of nylons, high heels and a dress, I pretty much have to go the whole route, makeup, wig, etc, and present as a female to avoid ridicule, snickers and possible assault. When it comes to men wearing female type clothing, just wearing a couple items is not an option. At least not in public.

[Sherlyn]

Sandra ...sometimes it
is simply a matter of titles.... label confusion...whatever ...I betcha there's a fair majority who just think everyone here is crossdressing here... simply because of the name at the top of the page ..and they just figure that's the name of everyones game til threads like this comes along and they stand corrected...or slapped ...lol...:D

[FionaO]

I was out on Saturday night with a small group of friends. One of the women who is a married mother of five children was dressed in boys clothes (jeans, checked lumberjack shirt, heavy boots). Her hair is cut very short in a man's style and she never wears make-up. She always dresses in this style and looks like a guy. She may not be pretending to be a guy but she tries as much as possible to look like one. No one has a problem with her doing this. However if I had turned up in anything remotely feminine then it would have been a completely diferent story. The fact remains that all types of dress are acceptable for women but a lot are not for men. However I would not consider wearing a frilly blouse with a man's suit. When I dress it's 100% female (pretty dress, make-up, wig, padding etc.) and I hope that anyone who sees me thinks that I am a women.

[JohnH]

Maybe a bunch of men need to go out together wearing dresses to a local bar but not passing as women. I emphasize a bunch - so if someone tries to assault one of the men the would-be assailant gets a beating. There would be strength in numbers.

John (Johanna)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Maybe a bunch of men need to go out together wearing dresses to a local bar but not passing as women. I emphasize a bunch - so if someone tries to assault one of the men the would-be assailant gets a beating. There would be strength in numbers.

John (Johanna)

this would be a great idea if you could find enough men that would be interested in that....
i suggest you ask around a forum where crossdressers hang out..i hear the guys like to wear women's clothes...just like you.

[suchacutie]

Fiona is exactly correct, and here is the punch line: Women fought for the right to wear whatever they wanted, and they were ridiculed for it. Have we fought the same fight??? NO!

So, let's stop grousing about it and get out there fight!

tina

[Alice Torn]

My post may be axed, but, someone here said, that it is in the person's mind and heart, the intent, that is the biggy.

[docrobbysherry]

Geez.. another one... maybe the penny will drop.. at some point..... when woman wear pants they are not crossdressing and are not wearing mens clothes..... read the point of this thread... please... next time i will delete the post....

Anyone that CAN'T see the difference between women that buy pants and shirts in the WOMEN'S dept. and men that buy dresses in the WOMEN'S dept. will NEVER understand what Reine is trying to say!:brolleyes:

If they sold dresses in the MEN'S dept., I wouldn't buy them! WHY!?
Because I'm a CROSSDRESSER!:straightface:

[Sallee]

I will have to agree with Sandra on her take about wanting to appear as a women. I believe that most men who dress in female garb are attempting to pass as female or at least have the untrained eye think they are female. Now looking at Pythos' comment I will agree there are some men who wear female clothing and do not want or try to pass. That's fine I am not one of them. I don't really know why I have this desire to dress as a female and pass as a female but I do and I enjoy it so I stopped worrying about it a long time ago Call it a hobby for lack of a better term. I would guess most of us CD's on this board would like to be read as a female when we are out and about. I see in this thread there are some that don't thats fine.
After looking at Steve Tyler on American ideal maybe he is one of the latter. then again maybe not.
To me passing some of the time is what I find fun. Nothing thrills me more when some one says to me "you look great If I didn't know I wouldn't have guessed" That does happen although never enough

I could agree more I want to full some of the people some of time. Its FUN

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not.

Check the profiles....you'll come to the conclusion that it's an age thing.


I thought I had sorted out in my head the difference between CD, TV, TS, ... and had firmly come to the conclusion that I was a male CDer who enjoyed wearing women's clothes.
Again, I am definitely NOT trying to emulate a female.

And I get SO MAD when certain posters insist on referring to us collectively as "girls".

Now I have problems ... if I am not a CDer, should I be on this forum?
And if not, where do I belong?
AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!

You do understand that it's all grey and muddy don't you? That the above categories are murky and self defined? That most of the "crossdressers" who join websites such as this have some form of transgender identity, and folks like you are less common, and even more less common in the in-person support groups.

It's not a case of "where you belong", you just need to realize that you're not like the majority here, and that the others who have a transgender identity of some kind have a closer sense of group identity than folks like you do.




If it was acceptable for me to simply wear whatever women's-style clothes I wanted, I might never have attempted to go the whole nine-yards dressing enfemme.

So it's all the women's fault? If they all dressed like Donna Reed or June Cleaver you wouldn't be wearing women's clothes. That's bullshit and you know it.


For women it is the complete opposite. I'm not even talking about FtM's. Regular women can wear *any* item of men's clothing *anywhere*, and not raise a single eyebrow.

They're not wearing men's clothing, they bought their clothing in the women's department.


I think FtM's have it a lot easier for that reason. They can wear whatever they want. They can even present completely as a man, and AFAIK be completely secure that they won't be hassled or looked down on.

Why don't you make that statement to the FTM's here and see what kind of response you get. Ha ha ha ha ha.


One example. I work with a woman who wears guy jeans, a guy polo shirt, and hiking boots every day. She has a men's haircut and unisex wire framed glasses.

Are you sure they're from the men's department? Did you check the tags?



Really you should talk to some of the FtMs on this forum and see what they have to say about that.

I'm imagining the response





In the technical aspect women that wear pants ARE crossdressing. Pants from the get go were for men. They were from riding breeches, and were for horse riding, a thing that for the most part only men did.

No they're not, because while that may have been the case 100 years ago it isn't "NOW". Times change.


If a woman wore an outfit consisting of pants, dress shoes, and socks, and presented as a female, would she be called a crossdresser?

No, because she bought those things in the women's departments.





I know of crossdressers who do not visit this site precisely because it is dominated by those who crossdress for transgendered reasons which they do not relate to.

Well if they DON'T join this site, or the in-person support groups, then things won't change and such places will be filled with crossdressers who have a transgender identity of some kind. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.



If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up. Every now and then someone comes in here with some lame explanation why it's OK for women to dress like men. Whatever women do is OK. Whatever men do is wrong! I'm not buying it! :straightface:


I feel the same way. The only dresses my wife wears is a sun dress that is not intended to be worn outside the house. Otherwise she wears only pants and shorts. If she would dress more lady-like I would be content to simply wear my denim skirts with otherwise men's articles of clothing.

<sarcasm> why yes, it's all the women's fault, if they wore dresses and stockings and girdles and acted just like june cleaver you two wouldn't be crossdressers</sarcasm> A little bit of chauvinism there don't you think?


I only wish society would be more tolerant of men wearing skirts, dresses, heels, and makeup, particularly when they are not trying to pass as women.

Well considering that most of men who DO go out in women's clothing DO want to pass as women and that people like you tend to be of the "extremely closeted" sorts who don't go out, it's all moot isn't it.


This will be in the form of crossdressing becoming an acceptable alternative for males for society in general.

John (Johanna)

You wish! But if you want it to happen you'll actually have to DO something rather than hide in your closet and say, "I can't go out till people are accepting"



II strongly suspect if pants were considered a feminine article of clothing, us crossdressers would be wearing pants. It's just the nature of the beast.

There are crossdressers who wear women's pants. :-)


Women fought for their right to wear pants. We as crossdressers have not, and thus their is frustration and sometimes a little jealousy that women can and do wear what they choose.

That's right.


[COLOR="dimgray"] I really don't think most women even think about crossdressing, when they wear men
s clothes,

But they're not wearing men's clothes, they're wearing women's clothes, that they bought in the women's department. I understand that your age affects your viewpoint on this, but in case you were absent for the past 70 or so years, but pants are women's clothing.


Oh, what a load of horse poop!

Yeah, it's just rationalization.

So while you present a very valid point, the point is moot.

Exactly.


Women are free to wear pants, shirts, ties and mens shoes, and boy haircuts, and no one sees anything wrong it.

Most women aren't wearing those things, and the ones that do, get plenty of hassle. Go ask the butches and FTM's


Fiona is exactly correct, and here is the punch line: Women fought for the right to wear whatever they wanted, and they were ridiculed for it. Have we fought the same fight??? NO!

So, let's stop grousing about it and get out there fight!

tina

It's not going to happen, because too many of the "Manly Men in skirts crowd" are scared. They want everything to magically change without them doing anything because they're scared of ridicule, even more so that the crossdressers with transgender identities are.

Veronica

[Phoebe P.]

Good grief! Why would anyone take offense at something said on a message board? There are a lot of people here with a lot of different opinions. If I see something I disagree with, I take it with a grain of salt and move on. Why does EVERYTHING have to be such a big deal these days? Nothing in life says I have the right to not be offended. The only way someone can "offend" me is if I give them the power to. Let's move along... :)

[Melinda G]

Fiona is exactly correct, and here is the punch line: Women fought for the right to wear whatever they wanted, and they were ridiculed for it. Have we fought the same fight??? NO!

So, let's stop grousing about it and get out there fight!

tina
That does it! I'm burning my jockstrap in front of the White House.:eek:

Now for the bonus round : Why is this site called "Crossdressers.com"?

[Rachel Morley]

Oh my gosh Sandra, you are getting some feedback in one of your threads now or what? :) To me, this is a somewhat touchy subject so I am going to tread really gently here and just share an opinion I have about the way I think about this. IMHO (yes I am saying this as humbly as I can) if you consider "crossdressing" as wearing clothes that are designed for and manufactured in styles that are meant for that gender's body shape then I do think the person, either male or female, (in its literal term) is crossdressing if they wear the opposite gender's clothes. So when Sandra says:


Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not. Basically we just wear the clothes that are designed for us.

I couldn't agree more with her. She is dead on correct. Clothes that are made for women even if they are an ordinary t-shirt and pants/jeans etc, then the women IMO aren't crossdressing because they're (according my definition) wearing clothes that are designed for them. i.e. women wearing women's clothes.

But, I gotta tell ya I really like these two comments here:


I agree very much. Male crossdressers are being singled out because societal prejudice forces many to emulate women because we dont feel right being seen as a man in a dress. Remove the prejudice and stigma and we would end up with new generations of men naturally integrating feminine clothing into their presentation just as women do with men's fashion.

Either all men and women are crossdressing and none of us are. I dont like how people want to distance women's use of male clothing and claim it is something completely different. It isn't, it the just the prejudice that creates the gap and resulting differing behaviors.


I said it already, but I will say it again! If you wear any clothing made for the opposite sex, you are crossdressing. That is true whether you are male or female! And the reason for wearing the clothes makes no difference! Yes, some women do wear mens pants and shirts. They are crossdressing, but they get away with it because the public is used to that.

These comments make total sense to me if you consider crossdressing purely from the "clothes only" standpoint. Admittedly though, there is for a lot of folks on here (me included) where something else is going on, it's not only a fashion freedom statement for people like me (however, I do wear obvious girly clothes but still present as a guy all the time :devil:) but when we've previously talked in other threads about what was the definition of "crossdressing" no one said you had to feel a certain way or not feel a certain way to be a crossdresser. If I remember correctly most people talked about wearing clothes that were designed for the opposite gender being the defining factor. So in that sense, IMO both men and women can and do crossdress but it's socially acceptable for one and not the other.

Now before I get lampooned, I do recognize that when a guy crossdresses it's almost certainly different for him (how he feels when he's doing it) than when a woman crossdresses (wears clothes that are designed for a man) but that's not the point I wanted to demonstrate. I was talking about the fact that "technically speaking" women can and do crossdress, but it's accepted in society as not being a problem, and I'm ok with that, I just wish that in this particular case, what was good for the goose was also good for the gander! Just my :2c:

[JohnH]

This will be in the form of crossdressing becoming an acceptable alternative for males for society in general.

John (Johanna)


You wish! But if you want it to happen you'll actually have to DO something rather than hide in your closet and say, "I can't go out till people are accepting"

...

It's not going to happen, because too many of the "Manly Men in skirts crowd" are scared. They want everything to magically change without them doing anything because they're scared of ridicule, even more so that the crossdressers with transgender identities are.

Veronica

Well, guess what - I wear denim skirts instead of shorts when the weather is warm, even when I am otherwise in drab. I also walk around the neighborhood wearing dresses, sometimes with my wife who is wearing pants or shorts. I do NOT keep my "enhanced selection" a secret by ANY means.

I do my part to try to make it acceptable for men to wear skirts and dresses by wearing them openly as a man.

John (Johanna)

[Melinda G]

It's not so much that I am trying to fool anyone, or present as a female. I have no interest in men. I just enjoy wearing womens clothes, and I don't care for the "Budweiser Boys" look. Therefore , I have to look somewhat passable to avoid looking stupid.:battingeyelashes:

[JohnH]

I do have my hair long enough so it looks passable on a woman. And I am not flat chested, and I also have hips. So I really don't have to do a whole lot to look acceptable wearing a dress.

Johanna (John)

[Alice Torn]

Like Rodney King asked, "Can't we all just get along?" When i wrote , that women don't think about cross dressing, when they put on male type clothes, what I should have wrote, was, it is not an issue with them, anymore, since society accepts it, and, it does not even enter their thoughts. By the way, I have several lesbian friends, who dress like men, and i look at the heart, as God does, not the outward appearance! Can't we all just get along?

[Taylor186]

If they sold dresses in the MEN'S dept., I wouldn't buy them! WHY!?
Because I'm a CROSSDRESSER!:straightface:

True for me too.

The worst possible crossdresser scenario is the one that many here seen to wish for: being able to buy and wear whatever clothes they want with no stigma attached. If that happened then there would not be a mens clothing department and a womans clothing department, there would be a unisex clothing department. How then would a crossdresser like me crossdress?

[JohnH]

I disagree. It would be such a relief for me if dresses, skirts, and heels were available in the men's department.

Johanna (John)

[Taylor186]

Feel free to disagree for yourself. But, your posts do not speak to me or my needs as a crossdresser.

[Pink Person]

I’m a transfeminine person, but I don’t dress to present as a cisfemale. I present mainly as a feminine male, very deliberately, primarily with feminine accessories.

The word crossdresser is a negative term to me because it’s never just about the clothes. It doesn’t accurately describe anyone. It doesn’t tell the whole truth about transgender people and it says too much about cisgender people. I think everyone should be offended by this label.

[cordgrass]

Fiona is exactly correct, and here is the punch line: Women fought for the right to wear whatever they wanted, and they were ridiculed for it. Have we fought the same fight??? NO!

So, let's stop grousing about it and get out there fight!

tina

This. Women aren't ever crossdressers in Western society (except the aforementioned MtF wearing women's clothing, which wouldn't count as a woman, ack, you know what I mean!). We aren't crossdressers because our grandmothers fought this fight for us. Thank you Marlene Dietrich and Katharine Hepburn. So it doesn't matter if we get a little twinge of pleasure putting on a power suit or men's motorcycle boots. We aren't put in a box.

[Sue101]

Then why would a birth male feel better about himself when he wears feminine clothing? This shows you are only focusing on that one section of crossdressers who do it for gender reasons - as Joanne said there is a big difference between crossdressers and gendercrossers. Many crossdressers do not wear clothes to feel better about themselves, they do it because it is fun, exciting, stimulating and is great escapism from their male role and responsibilities. Others because they just like the look and want personal choice.


Maybe my views that the majority of men who wear feminine fashions are transgender have been influenced by the majority posts in this forum; but even in real life at the TG support group my SO belongs to, the members there are most definitely presenting as women, and not as guys wearing skirts. Precisely! Crossdressers who do not feel they are part woman do not go to TG support groups.


Other than perhaps fetish CDs, how many men do you (or others ... I'm not trying to single you out) know personally who wear dresses, and what percentage are not attempting to present as women? I'm guessing it would be very small. Actually quite the opposite the numbers are large. Many crossdressers have only a small stash of lingerie, others have no stash and borrow their wives' lingerie. If they were transgendered they would hardly just focus on lingerie? Even when you do see crossdressers in public, many of them are only interested in presenting as hookers. Again is this what a transgendered person would do?

Large numbers of crossdressers are not transgendered. They are merely intertested in enjoying very specific female gender roles. The sheer number and volume of traffic of what you call fetish crossdressing sites should not be ignored. They started off the same way and have the same fantasies as transgendered crossdressers but their interpretation of what their behavior meant to them differs.

Getting back to the main point, all the arguments revolve around people mixing up the term crossdresser and the action of crossdressing. The overwhelming choice of women to buy pants over skirts does reflect a deliberate choice and it is not fashion because fashion houses overwhelmingly put women in skirts and dresses. You said a person's clothing choice reflects their internal landscape. So what does a woman's choice to wear only pants and not skirts reflect? And no lame excuses like comfort thanks.

[JohnH]

If I am considered a crossdresser what I wear under dresses is a pair of standard men's Hanes briefs. I do have panties but the briefs are more comfortable to me. My breasts don't sag to the point of holding up a pencil so I don't wear or own any bras.

Johanna (John)

[kimdl93]

I think the suggestion that women are cross dressing when they wear pants or a sport coat is just a little silly and rather dishonest. Its not really the clothes, but rather the intent that goes with it. When I get dressed and made up, I am trying to present and "feel" feminine....regardless of how successful I may be.

[JulieK1980]

I think the suggestion that women are cross dressing when they wear pants or a sport coat is just a little silly and rather dishonest. Its not really the clothes, but rather the intent that goes with it. When I get dressed and made up, I am trying to present and "feel" feminine....regardless of how successful I may be.

Denial is the word that comes to mind. It's a way for some to make themselves feel better about what they do. Sort of the same logic some of the Tri-ess groups use when they say "ALL" crossdressers are straight. It's an attempt to minimize what they see in themselves as a flaw.

By the technical definition I suppose the argument could be made that women crossdress when wearing pants, but it's a semantical and highly outdated concept.

[Rianna Humble]

By the technical definition I suppose the argument could be made that women crossdress when wearing pants, but it's a semantical and highly outdated concept.

If a woman wears men's clothes then she is cross-dressing. The mistake that too many people on this part of the forum make is to claim what when wearing "pants" designed for women and tailored to women's body shape the women are cross-dressing. Even I know that to cross-dress you need to wear the clothing of the opposite gender, so women who wear women's clothes are NOT cross-dressing.

[JulieK1980]

If a woman wears men's clothes then she is cross-dressing. The mistake that too many people on this part of the forum make is to claim what when wearing "pants" designed for women and tailored to women's body shape the women are cross-dressing. Even I know that to cross-dress you need to wear the clothing of the opposite gender, so women who wear women's clothes are NOT cross-dressing.

Hence, why I said outdated.

[Shananigans]

I have a serious question to those echoing the "I don't dress to present as a woman, I just dress because I like the clothes." Some of you, I know on a personal level...and, I KNOW you wear breast forms. So, uhm, what's up with that? I'm not going to call anyone out...but, I'm just sayin'...you say that you don't want to present as a woman and that you just like the clothes, but you also want to wear makeup and have tits.

I don't get it.

Also, for those of you who are saying that you only wear the clothes but do not want to be seen as a woman...well, then why do you have a woman's name as your user name? If you are angry at others that you are being called a crossdresser or a woman because you are wearing a dress, are posting on a crossdresser site, and have a woman's name as your user name, you need to reevaluate your life.

If it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, and it walks like a duck...you can't blame everyone for treating it like a duck.


If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up.



Melinda,

I feel the same way. The only dresses my wife wears is a sun dress that is not intended to be worn outside the house. Otherwise she wears only pants and shorts. If she would dress more lady-like I would be content to simply wear my denim skirts with otherwise men's articles of clothing.

To the above two quotes...If this was a card game, I'd call bullsh*t on this. Oh, heck, I'll call it anyway. Something tells me that you aren't dressing as a woman because there is a shortage in the number of people wearing nylons and high heels. I challenge you to really think about why you wear womens clothes and makeup and then get back to me and see if it's still because there's a shortage in the number of women doing it.


And when there are scads of CDers who minimize their motives by insisting on believing that what they do is just about the clothes (which is implied when they say that women CD when they wear pants), it perpetuates a sort of denial about their reasons for dressing.

I DO think that there are men who legitimately want to wear women's clothes and not present as women. But, they aren't the ones in wigs, full-on perfect makeup, and breast forms.


Really???

Then help me understand the concept of "the boyfriend jacket", "boy-shorts", the line of women's underwear called "Jockey for Her" i.e. female versions of the ubiquitous "tighty-whiteys", why the garment that used to be called a "blouse" somehow morphed into becoming a "women's shirt", and why every once in a while designers like to bring out styles of women's shoes clearly meant to resemble men's brogues.

And why do businesswomen wear "power suits" to emulate men in the corporate world as a way to be taken more seriously, upwardly mobile, and career-oriented?

Why do some women like to wear men's ties as part of a mannish-looking outfit to make a fashion statement?

What was behind the masculine "Annie Hall" look that Diane Keaton popularized many years ago?

Why did pop singer Avril Lavigne raid Daddy's closet and steal his ties to go along with her tank tops and camouflage pants to create her unique edgy i.e. tough "rocker chick" style when she first started out? Girl power?

The truth is, women for reasons best known to themselves often like to wear masculine-themed clothes, and it is not only about their alleged comfort.

I'm not a psychologist, but I can't help but believe that there is an erotic component that causes them to favor wearing that type of clothing - perhaps a sub-conscious way of getting closer to their man (or being continuously reminded of his presence/existence) by feeling these clothes envelop them in the absence of actually being held in his strong masculine and protective arms. Isn't that also why so many vulnerable-feeling pregnant women like to wear their SO's dress shirts like nighties when there are plenty of specially designed maternity clothes around that will do the same job?

Isn't that why Barbra Streisand, in her song of many years ago entitled "Honey, Can I Put On Your Clothes?" sang, and I quote:

"Honey, honey, can I put on your clothes?
Because they feel so good
And they feel like you
Oh, won`t you please let me
Because they get to me
They touch me and then move me
I get to thinking I won`t be needin`
Anything more to keep me warm
I feel the feeling of you
All the way through
No other feeling will ever do

Honey, honey, can I put on your clothes?
Because they feel so good
And they feel like you
They`re just like old friends
When we`re together
They comfort me and soothe me
They`re not brand new
They`re a little worn through,
But they're comfy and roomy
They do something to me
And when I stay at home
And you`re far away
I won`t be lonely all through the day

Honey, honey, can I put on your clothes?
Because they feel so good
And they feel like you
I feel the feeling of you
All the day through
No other feeling will ever do

Honey, honey, can I put on your clothes?
Because they feel so good
And they feel like you...
Honey, honey, honey. . ."

Sure, this is a throwback to the days when the man was considered to be the protector of the "little woman", and it doesn't have much relevance in today's post-industrial Western world, nor day and age of women's liberation. But old gender roles and expectations die hard, and many women still expect men to hold doors open for them, give up their seats to them on public transportation, and pick up the restaurant tab even when they are fully self-sufficient and often earn more than the man.

So maybe women can continue to get away with wearing men's or mannish-styled clothes (or dress and act like tomboys) in today's society without being called crossdressers, even if we, as men, are still stigmatized for doing the same thing in reverse because we continue to live in a male-dominated and largely homophobic society where being perceived to be a "sissy" is a [I]bad thing, whereas for women to try to emulate men is considered to be a good thing.

But please don't try to tell me that for women to wear men's clothes (or feminized versions thereof) doesn't have an erotic component attached to that as well, and gives them a "kick" not unlike what we crossdressers experience when we cross the gender divide in the type of clothing we favor.

The thing you are choosing not to understand is that these are versions for women. I have a huge crush on Cate Blanchett who does androgyny soooo well

http://cdn.buzznet.com/media-cdn/jj1/headlines/2010/06/cate-blanchett-tony-awards-2010.jpg

Here she is wearing a "men's suit"...only it's not. It's tailored to the body of a woman to flatter her natural curves. It's shiny and feminine to tailor to the usual feminine taste. She looks sexy in a suit...a symbol of power. She juxtaposes the suit (a symbol of the man and power that has been turned feminine and chic) with high heels (the ultimate feminine accessory). ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT.

Why is she not a crossdresser? Obviously, she is not presenting as a man.

If Cate showed up in a suit that was not tailored for her curves and was wearing boxy, men's flats with no makeup and that same hairstyle...I might venture to say that she is FTM. But, 99% of women that are rocking the men's fashion turned feminine are rocking it AS WOMEN. And, that's the key difference.

I've seen one woman recently in a man's suit and with a manly hairstyle. She had men's shoes and a tie on. She spoke in a deep voice and smoked Cowboy Killers. She also drives the transit shuttle that I take to class and talks to me about football. HIS name is Jim and because it's the beginning of Jim's transition, you are still fairly certain that Jim used to be a woman. However, Jim is a man because he is presenting and acting as a man. Jim has never questioned my gender because I wear track shorts and a sweatshirt to class. I call Jim "sir" he calls "ma'am." There is absolutely no doubt in our mind as to what gender we are portraying ourselves as.

By saying that any woman that puts in a suit (whether it is tailored for a woman or not) is a crossdresser is doing a disservice not only to Jim but to yourself. I think that anyone that is stuck in this "Women wear jeans so they are crossdressers" is delusional. Unless you were a teenager in the 1950s, you can't really talk. Jeans have been a norm for women to wear since I was born...so have androgynous styles. (And, believe me...men of today and of yesterday do the androgyny. Let's take a look at David Bowie http://blog.news-record.com/staff/culture/Bowie%20in%20frock.jpg who my mother had a crush on for years...a peak back into the past). I've never batted an eyelash at jeans when I put them on because I was told that women wear jeans. I wear jeans and I consider myself to be presenting as a woman.

Also, that song has nothing to do with crossdressing. It's about longing and putting on someone's clothing because you want to be a part of them. It greatly diminishes the song just to think she is putting on her lover's clothes to present as a man. She longs to be with him and part of him because she loves him so much. When my friend's wife died, he wore her bathrobe at night. Did he want to wear the bathrobe to appear as a woman? No. It made him feel secure and reminded him of her. To lump it al to crossdressing just by wearing your lover's clothes greatly diminishes the power of the human psyche and the broad spectrum of emotion.

Oh, and btw...if you are still confused...here's Cate Blanchett presenting as a man...
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_03/bobsplit4MS2508_468x308.jpg

Are you still confused? Or, do you see a difference in the two pictures? I THINK THAT I DO!!

[Marissa]

Thank you, Shananigans.. for putting it all into words and examples that anyone should understand this, if they take the time to read it all and with an open mind of it being written in societies/cultural or whatever gage that is used to define acceptance of the norm. Wow, hope I got that last part right.

Anyway, I also want to thank all the others who made an attempt in this same manner.

I do understand the frustrations about such statements (as in the OP) being used in various threads are somewhat invalid as a true defination. I also know that in most cases when used, it was a means to vent a member's frustration of non-acceptance of the 'norm'. Basically, it was a lash out "you accept this but not this" thought process, without the thought of making an incorrect statement.

As great as the response have been to explain this error, there will still be others who will use this type of response as I explained. And it will continue until that cute skirt is accepted by society (well not all societies/cultures since jeans on women are not accepted by everyone, as an example) to be worn by men, women, other..

[Kelly DeWinter]

.......... I don't get it.

If it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, and it walks like a duck...you can't blame everyone for treating it like a duck.



Sigh ........ I don't get it either, If I knew why I do what I do, why it at times is very important to me, and at other times it's not, then I think half the counselors in the US would be out of business. All I know is that there are time I need the Duck, I have to BE the Duck, I would go quackers if it were'nt for the Duck. Then there is the flocking when I have to get out with the other fowel in my area and flock in formation. Mayby it started with The Donald, the original duck. Was his blue outfit a mini dress ??? I don't know all I know is he had no pants. I'm thinking of trying out for the AFLAC duck, now that that job is open ? Who knows, was I born a goose or a gander ? Mayby it does boil down to who came first the duck or the egg ?

[Phoebe P.]

Personally I enjoy it and don't feel a reason to over analyze it unless it causes me or my wife harm.

[Shananigans]

Sigh ........ I don't get it either, If I knew why I do what I do, why it at times is very important to me, and at other times it's not, then I think half the counselors in the US would be out of business. All I know is that there are time I need the Duck, I have to BE the Duck, I would go quackers if it were'nt for the Duck. Then there is the flocking when I have to get out with the other fowel in my area and flock in formation. Mayby it started with The Donald, the original duck. Was his blue outfit a mini dress ??? I don't know all I know is he had no pants. I'm thinking of trying out for the AFLAC duck, now that that job is open ? Who knows, was I born a goose or a gander ? Mayby it does boil down to who came first the duck or the egg ?

At least you realize that there is a duck and don't point at other birds with feathers and say, "Hey! They're all ducks too!"

[Areyan]

Personally I enjoy it and don't feel a reason to over analyze it unless it causes me or my wife harm.

someone here has their head screwed on in the right way. i am FTM, when i wear mens' clothing it actually IS mens' clothing, not clothes made for women (except for a few pairs of pants i have - they're unisex because i'm too damn short and the wrong shape to fit most men's tailored pants).

any female-identified woman wearing pants is NOT crossdressing. it's insulting to me and every other FTM when you "gurls" get that wrong ok? at least Phoebe P isn't stupid enough to blame women for what she's doing. a lot of you could learn from that. do i blame women for me being FTM? or men? hell no. there is nothing to blame or point fingers at... those who do are the ones with problems.

[Debglam]

I have a serious question to those echoing the "I don't dress to present as a woman, I just dress because I like the clothes." Some of you, I know on a personal level...and, I KNOW you wear breast forms. So, uhm, what's up with that? I'm not going to call anyone out...but, I'm just sayin'...you say that you don't want to present as a woman and that you just like the clothes, but you also want to wear makeup and have tits.

I don't get it.

Also, for those of you who are saying that you only wear the clothes but do not want to be seen as a woman...well, then why do you have a woman's name as your user name? If you are angry at others that you are being called a crossdresser or a woman because you are wearing a dress, are posting on a crossdresser site, and have a woman's name as your user name, you need to reevaluate your life.

If it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, and it walks like a duck...you can't blame everyone for treating it like a duck.

Speechless! :yrtw: ( If I can quote Rachel Zoe: "Lit-rally") :)

All I can say is "Quack."


Sigh ........ I don't get it either, If I knew why I do what I do, why it at times is very important to me, and at other times it's not, then I think half the counselors in the US would be out of business. All I know is that there are time I need the Duck, I have to BE the Duck, I would go quackers if it were'nt for the Duck. Then there is the flocking when I have to get out with the other fowel in my area and flock in formation. Mayby it started with The Donald, the original duck. Was his blue outfit a mini dress ??? I don't know all I know is he had no pants. I'm thinking of trying out for the AFLAC duck, now that that job is open ? Who knows, was I born a goose or a gander ? Mayby it does boil down to who came first the duck or the egg ?

Ah Kelly. . . Be the duck girl. . .be the duck :)

[busker]

Some (not all) of the members on this forum still have the impression that just because a woman wears trousers/pants and I mean those that are made for the female form are still crossdressing, when we're not and this seems a hard point to get across. I guess it's just something that some of us will just differ on no matter what is said.

Thanks for all your replies :)

I've made that point a few times and I think the distinction in my mind is whether the zipper is in front (e.g. male design, because women have nothing in front that requires a front zip) and whether the zipper flap is on the left (male) or right (female design) and zippers on the side or back. Originally, women's pants had NO front zipper, but when they started wearing jeans, I believe that changed (and I could be wrong about the front zipper as standard). Labels in women's clothing are generally on the left if they are not at the neck (generalization?). Reine pointed out that it was faster with the front zipper but I'm not convinced and there are still a lot of pull-on pants in the women's clothing market. I think to some extent that it is the "masculinization" of women that is behind a lot of women's casual fashion that is modelled on men's clothing. The "boyfriend" clothing, but you never hear of the "girlfriend" clothing for a woman's SO. Curious? there are boyshorts, boyfriend sweaters, etc, ( but there were also women's underwear in the 20's , 30's that were cut like boxers. Actually women should wear boxers and men (who had the need to keep things in place should wear briefs. another oddball of fashion.


So what is the harm?
Mary, the harm is exactly that you have likely fooled some male into thinking you were a female and when he finds out, he's both embarrased that he made the mistaken identity and p....d off that you fooled him. So it is going to be one bad time, if the male is big enough to make his hurt felt. clothes have blatant sexual messages attached to them and that is also why crossdressing is not accepted. I've got pretty fair sized breasts and if I went around in a low-cut top with my push-up bra, and otherwise dressed as a male, don't you think I would the s..t kicked out of me by someone who felt lured to my cleavage?

[CaitlynRenee]

I hate all these labels. "FTM,MTF, SO,CD,PHD,MFP, and so on...and so on." Why can't we all just be people instead of being divided up into groups according to gender, race, age or whatever. Is it so important to belong to a group? What ever happened to individuality? Did that die with the 60's? What we were so afraid of becoming back then is what we have become now,, a homogenized and pasteurized product of an unrealistic ideology that values tolerance but doesn’t practice it.

Well said, DawnMarrie. I think what happened in the 60s though was that everyone wanted to be different, so they ALL wore the same clothing, hairstyles, shoes, etc.. Now they REALLY looked different............ or not. They all looked alike, .......differently.

I will say that I too 'need the duck' at times. I'd give anything to be that all powerful 'shape shifter' in science fiction. When I felt the urge, I'd be 100% female, tip to toe, clothes and all. When I felt the urge to be male, then that's what I'd be. I may 'shift' back and forth a 100 times a day, depending on how I felt.

The fact is, that there are times when I truly wish I were female. Times when I feel sensitive, or helpless, or tearful. Times when I need to be held. At other times, I want to knock a few brews back, and hang out with my buddies............as a guy. Who knows, if the guys were good enough looking when I were in girl mode, I might want to hang out with them............... just to show them I was as good as they were.............or..............Better???

I'd still like to have some nonjudgemental and discreet friends, of any gender identity (CD/GG/TV/TS/B/G/L) who I could hang out with, talk clothes, shoes, jewelry, hairstyles, etc. with. 'Do lunch' with and in general, just have a good time with. Probably asking too much I suppose.

[Kelly DeWinter]

At least you realize that there is a duck and don't point at other birds with feathers and say, "Hey! They're all ducks too!"

I wonder if a duck ever looks at a parrot and wishes they were a parrot as well ? Would it be becuse of the color of their feathers ?

P.S. Shananigans - I have some pinions that need fluffed, your nest or mine ? ROFL !

[Pythos]

I've made that point a few times and I think the distinction in my mind is whether the zipper is in front (e.g. male design, because women have nothing in front that requires a front zip) and whether the zipper flap is on the left (male) or right (female design) and zippers on the side or back. Originally, women's pants had NO front zipper, but when they started wearing jeans, I believe that changed (and I could be wrong about the front zipper as standard). Labels in women's clothi

I have my spandex jeans. They have a front zipper, so that is one male feature. The zipper flap is also in the "male" direction. So that means these shiny skin tight spandex pants are in fact a male garment, eh? So why are they marketed only to women?

[Shananigans]

I wonder if a duck ever looks at a parrot and wishes they were a parrot as well ? Would it be becuse of the color of their feathers ?

P.S. Shananigans - I have some pinions that need fluffed, your nest or mine ? ROFL !

Parrots are overrated. MY NEST!


I have my spandex jeans. They have a front zipper, so that is one male feature. The zipper flap is also in the "male" direction. So that means these shiny skin tight spandex pants are in fact a male garment, eh? So why are they marketed only to women?

Only if you wear it with breast forms, a wig, jewelry, nail polish, heels, and lots of makeup. ;)

Or, call yourself Natasha. (Or, any other arbitrary feminine name).

[Kelly DeWinter]

[QUOTE=Shananigans;2445659]Parrots are overrated. MY NEST!
QUOTE]

YOUR nest ! Eeeep ! I'm not sure what I'd be getting into there. What are my choices ?

[Sandra]

Can we please keep this on topic, if members want to talk birds and nests then take it to pm.

[Shananigans]

It was a metaphor for the problem between the crossdressers and the GGs haha. Sorry.

[sissystephanie]

Oh my gosh Sandra, you are getting some feedback in one of your threads now or what? :) To me, this is a somewhat touchy subject so I am going to tread really gently here and just share an opinion I have about the way I think about this. IMHO (yes I am saying this as humbly as I can) if you consider "crossdressing" as wearing clothes that are designed for and manufactured in styles that are meant for that gender's body shape then I do think the person, either male or female, (in its literal term) is crossdressing if they wear the opposite gender's clothes. So when Sandra says:
I couldn't agree more with her. She is dead on correct. Clothes that are made for women even if they are an ordinary t-shirt and pants/jeans etc, then the women IMO aren't crossdressing because they're (according my definition) wearing clothes that are designed for them. i.e. women wearing women's clothes.
But, I gotta tell ya I really like these two comments here:
These comments make total sense to me if you consider crossdressing purely from the "clothes only" standpoint. Admittedly though, there is for a lot of folks on here (me included) where something else is going on, it's not only a fashion freedom statement for people like me.

I have said this too many times already, but I will say it again! Crossdressing is a fashion statement, plain and simple. If you wear clothing designed and made for a sex different from your own, you are crossdressing. SANDRA knows this! She was referring to women who wear pants and tops that are designed and made for women, and are called crossdressers!! They are NOT crossdressers, simply becasue they are wearing clothing that is made for them!!

There are a lot of people posting on this thread who, 1. did not really read the OP and 2. don't really know what they are talking about. They are expressing their own opinions, which they are entitled to do, but unfortunately the opinion don't have much to do with actual subject of the thread!

The actual point is very simple!! If a person wears clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, that is crossdressing!! If it was made for the same sex, even if it looks like it might be for the opposite sex, it is not crossdressing!!

[Shananigans]

Crossdressing is a fashion statement, plain and simple.

I wasn't aware that it was a fashion statement plain and simple.

[JulieK1980]

I wasn't aware that it was a fashion statement plain and simple.

Maybe for a drag queen?

For many of us though it's a tad bit more....

[Melinda G]

After wading through five pages of reponses to this thread, I'm left with one over riding thought. Who cares!

[Shananigans]

I have a hypothetical question to whoever...no one answered my first questions, so I don't expect much...

Basically, if a woman buys a pair of pants from the men's section of the store. She wears these pants that are NOT tailored to a woman, but matches these pants with an outfit that has other feminine clothes and accessory. Let's say she wears the men's pants with a lace blouse, a chunky necklace, and stilletos.

I'd say she isn't CDing. She's presenting as a woman.

Now, let's say that a man goes into the store and buys a blouse from the women's department. He wears this flowery blouse with typical male jeans, hiking boots, and a baseball hat. He's presenting as a man, but chose to wear a woman's top.

Is he CDing?

I feel like when we know how we answer this question and WHY we answer it this way then we can understand the OPs post on GGs in jeans, etc.

NOTE: I've only seen one person on this site who wore a skirt with everything else masculine. He said he wasn't a CD...he said he liked skirts. I didn't see any pics of him in breast forms, makeup, or a wig. But, in my hypothetical situation, imagine a man like this. Who chose one female accessory and wore everything else that was masculine. Or, even choses a dress to wear but wears no makeup, no shape enhancers, no wig, no feminine alternate name. It's Joe Bob and he wants to wear a dress. Is he CDing?


After wading through five pages of reponses to this thread, I'm left with one over riding thought. Who cares!

If you really waded through 5 pages of responses to the thread, you'd probably come to the conclusion that quite a few people care.

[JulieK1980]

I have a hypothetical question to whoever...no one answered my first questions, so I don't expect much...

Basically, if a woman buys a pair of pants from the men's section of the store. She wears these pants that are NOT tailored to a woman, but matches these pants with an outfit that has other feminine clothes and accessory. Let's say she wears the men's pants with a lace blouse, a chunky necklace, and stilletos.

I'd say she isn't CDing. She's presenting as a woman.

Now, let's say that a man goes into the store and buys a blouse from the women's department. He wears this flowery blouse with typical male jeans, hiking boots, and a baseball hat. He's presenting as a man, but chose to wear a woman's top.

Is he CDing?

I feel like when we know how we answer this question and WHY we answer it this way then we can understand the OPs post on GGs in jeans, etc.

NOTE: I've only seen one person on this site who wore a skirt with everything else masculine. He said he wasn't a CD...he said he liked skirts. I didn't see any pics of him in breast forms, makeup, or a wig. But, in my hypothetical situation, imagine a man like this. Who chose one female accessory and wore everything else that was masculine. Or, even choses a dress to wear but wears no makeup, no shape enhancers, no wig, no feminine alternate name. It's Joe Bob and he wants to wear a dress. Is he CDing?

Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines it as:
CROSS-DRESSING: the wearing of clothes designed for the opposite sex
— cross–dress intransitive verb
— cross–dress·er noun

So by technicality, yes it would be crossdressing. However, life isn't so technically correct. There is a lot of grey in between the black and white. A lot of this debate revolves around perception. That's why no one really comes to agreement. What is a crossdresser to me is not the same as what a crossdresser is to you, and multiply this by however many people are responding to this thread.

In my opinion, it goes way beyond the simple wearing of clothes for MOST of us. (Not all) If they marketed a bra for men for example, I would probably still buy the bra meant for a woman.

[AnnaCalliope]

I don't know if this has been said yet -- its past 2AM here on the East Coast and I should have gone to bed hours ago -- but I was thinking about this on the way home from work.

I believe the general discontent a lot of us feel is not that women can wear trousers and pants and there's no complaints, but a guy in a skirt and its suddenly the end of world. Its the fact that women have so much more variety available to them that is socially acceptable. Guys get jeans, which come in blue, black and occasionally stonewashed. We get shorts, which can be denim or khaki. And slacks, which are usually navy, gray or black. That's it. Women get all that, but in a much wider range of colors and styles. Then there's tops, guys get sweaters, collared shirts, t-shirts and polos. Women get all that, plus halters, tube tops, corset tops, sheer and mesh, half sleeve, 3/4 sleeve, sleeveless, tank tops, blouses..the list goes on. Men's apparel has so little variation, and I think that's where a lot of the envy crossdressers have of women's fashion comes from.

[MichelleOBrien]

Look... I got through maybe a quarter of the first page of replies on here, and I gotta say a few things.

Yes, there are some MtFs who try to pass as a female, and do everything in their power to emulate one. Then there's others who could really care less, they just like wearing the clothes. Then you have the TGs on this site who truly believe they are female inside, and were given the wrong physical attributes.

For any single person, however, to broadly brush everyone on this site who was born with a penis in the same light, however, is just as sexist as what you're protesting against. Much like fingerprints, no one person on this site is the same. Losing the labels would help to a degree, but there's a bigger problem I'm seeing.

The trans community (trans-genders, transvestites, transsexuals) are seeking acceptance from everyone else in the world, which is fine. But how can we ask the world to accept us if we don't accept each other? I mean, if we're constantly going back and forth with this constant BS infighting, how can we ever hope to be accepted by the rest of the world for whatever we are? Whether it's a man who likes to wear skirts, or somebody who firmly believes they are the opposite gender of their biological sex, we're all in the same boat.

Now if we could move on to less dramatic things, I'd like to go shopping at some point.

[ReineD]

Then there's tops, guys get sweaters, collared shirts, t-shirts and polos. Women get all that, plus halters, tube tops, corset tops, sheer and mesh, half sleeve, 3/4 sleeve, sleeveless, tank tops, blouses..the list goes on.

That's just it! Why else would a guy want to wear the sexy things a woman wears (and may I add ... the sexy things a woman wears that are designed specifically to appeal to men), such as tube tops, halters, corset tops, sheer & mesh tops, etc, and say that he doesn't wish to emulate a female, and there is no desire to cross any gender lines?

GGs who wear women's pants do NOT wish to present male. One member a few pages back described a woman (not a transman) who wore men's clothes & shoes (from a men's store) to his work place and she was not looked down upon. She may not have been where you live, but where I live, people would see her as being butch as she would suffer some form of discrimination.

Also, a few people in this thread have said that if skirts and dresses were ordinary, acceptable clothing choices for men as well as women, then they (perhaps) would not have gone the full route to presenting as women when wearing these things, since they wouldn't have stood out (by being a guy in a dress). They would not have become CDers. I mean no disrespect when I say this just doesn't make sense. If the urge to wear feminine things wasn't any stronger than a mere desire to wear skirts for ease and comfort, why risk jeopardizing job, marriage, family, and friends? Why wear breast forms and panties in private?

And to Leslie: back a few pages you said that surely there must be an erotic component when women wear what you consider to be men's styles, I say that you could not be farther from the truth! Honestly.

I think that the CDers who compare their own desire to wear skirts to a woman's ability to wear pants are creating smoke screens, if not for others, then for themselves.

[MichelleOBrien]

There are a lot of people posting on this thread who, 1. did not really read the OP and 2. don't really know what they are talking about. They are expressing their own opinions, which they are entitled to do, but unfortunately the opinion don't have much to do with actual subject of the thread!

The actual point is very simple!! If a person wears clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, that is crossdressing!! If it was made for the same sex, even if it looks like it might be for the opposite sex, it is not crossdressing!!

That's all fine and good but uh... that wasn't the point of the OP. So... not to be mean, but this feels kinda like...

"Pot to Kettle: you're black"

[noeleena]

Hi,

WOW 130 posts hmmm 131 now , & i never said a word... so i wont....no need any way,


...noeleena...

[Pink Person]

I agree with ReineD. There is no such thing as a cisgender crossdresser. All so-called crossdressers are transgender to some degree. People who claim it's all about the clothes are hilariously out of touch with the truth.

Cisgender people don't dress or behave in significant ways that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. Women who wear clothes that are designed for and sold to women are not crossdressers. Women who wear clothes that were designed for men in a manner that doesn't obscure and isn't intended to obscure their cisgender identities are not crossdressers.

Cisgender crossdressers are like unicorns. They exist in your imagination, but not in the real world.

[JulieK1980]

All so-called crossdressers are transgender to some degree.

Absolutely!! I think the ultimate reason this topic is debated so much is because of the denial of this statement. I think many of us refuse to acknowledge that we are in fact transgendered.

[Rianna Humble]

There are a lot of people posting on this thread who, 1. did not really read the OP and 2. don't really know what they are talking about. They are expressing their own opinions, which they are entitled to do, but unfortunately the opinion don't have much to do with actual subject of the thread!

The actual point is very simple!! If a person wears clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, that is crossdressing!! If it was made for the same sex, even if it looks like it might be for the opposite sex, it is not crossdressing!!

That's all fine and good but uh... that wasn't the point of the OP.

So let me get this right, Michelle, in your opinion, when Sandra said
Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not. she was not talking about the fact that women who wear women's trousers/pants are not crossdressing? In your opinion, what was she talking about?

[sissystephanie]

Shananigans, if a lady is wearing men's pants she is a crossdresser, regardless of what else she is wearing. The same is true of a man who dresses masculine except for a feminine top. That is definitely crossdressing! Once again I will repeat the rule; if you wear clothing designed and made for the opposite sex you are crossdressing!! It really is very simple!! I am a man, born that way!! But I go out in public wearing skirts and other feminine appeal. I look, from the neck up, like the man that I really am!! But all my clothes are feminine! Am I a crossdresser? Of course I am!! I am wearing clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, therefore I am a crossdresser!! It seems some people on this forum just cannot grasp that idea!!

Michelle Obrien, what I said about the OP is exactly what Sandra was talking about. Women who wear pants made for women are NOT crossdressing!! that is what she was talking about, and so was I!!

[Joanne f]

I agree with ReineD. There is no such thing as a cisgender crossdresser. All so-called crossdressers are transgender to some degree.

I disagree for the reason that we have been brought up to believe that clothes are designed for a particular gender to wear and not to create a gender by wearing them , transgender people wear clothes to help identify with their particular gender that they wish to be at a given time , there are many men who just enjoy wearing skirts and do not wish to cross any sort of gender line and also there are some that do face the conundrum of whether it is better to go out just dressed as a male wearing a skirt and top or is it safer to present as a female not necessarily because they need to but because they feel it is safer that way , there are also many women that enjoy wearing a mans shirt or jeans without wishing to or wanting to cross any gender line , this is not an exclusive part of a reason to wear clothes that may have been designed for the opposite gender by women alone as there are men like it as well no were near as may as ones that may have transgender feelings but never the less they are still out there .

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I agree with ReineD. There is no such thing as a cisgender crossdresser. All so-called crossdressers are transgender to some degree. People who claim it's all about the clothes are hilariously out of touch with the truth.

Cisgender people don't dress or behave in significant ways that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. Women who wear clothes that are designed for and sold to women are not crossdressers. Women who wear clothes that were designed for men in a manner that doesn't obscure and isn't intended to obscure their cisgender identities are not crossdressers.

Cisgender crossdressers are like unicorns. They exist in your imagination, but not in the real world.


Fantastic...Pink...i love what you are saying....

this is really a 3rd rail topic...

those of you that are trying to pin a label on women have to realize a simple thing.....it's a double standard...females are free to wear WHATEVER and it's not crossdressing unless she is trying to be accepted as male...tell a lesbian gal in crewcut, jeans and flannel she's a crossdresser and you can then enjoy a nice punch in the face..

Calling out gg's for crossdressing is a waste of time...trying to satisfy your own shame and guilt issues by trying to expand labels to others is irrelevant to what is going on in your skirt anyway...

there is nothing at all wrong with crossdressing...if you truly believed this about yourself, then you wouldn't be posting all the contorted logic

[MichelleOBrien]

So let me get this right, Michelle, in your opinion, when Sandra said she was not talking about the fact that women who wear women's trousers/pants are not crossdressing? In your opinion, what was she talking about?

The actual point is in the title of the thread. "We are not crossdressers.....and we get fed up of being told we are". The point was *not* however that women wearing women's pants or men wearing men's skirts are not crossdressing. that's what we call an example.

[Pythos]

I don't know if this has been said yet -- its past 2AM here on the East Coast and I should have gone to bed hours ago -- but I was thinking about this on the way home from work.

I believe the general discontent a lot of us feel is not that women can wear trousers and pants and there's no complaints, but a guy in a skirt and its suddenly the end of world. Its the fact that women have so much more variety available to them that is socially acceptable. Guys get jeans, which come in blue, black and occasionally stonewashed. We get shorts, which can be denim or khaki. And slacks, which are usually navy, gray or black. That's it. Women get all that, but in a much wider range of colors and styles. Then there's tops, guys get sweaters, collared shirts, t-shirts and polos. Women get all that, plus halters, tube tops, corset tops, sheer and mesh, half sleeve, 3/4 sleeve, sleeveless, tank tops, blouses..the list goes on. Men's apparel has so little variation, and I think that's where a lot of the envy crossdressers have of women's fashion comes from.

This is the best statement I have seen on this thread so far. This states everything I at least feel. Why do women get a HUGE range of clothing choices, and men....well we get what we get. I also hate the fact my mental abilities and worth are questioned because I chose a skirt to wear on a particular day instead of slacks?

I have also said many times, I probably would not have gotten into full on emulation of a female, at least in looks, had I not been restricted in what I could wear. I would have perfected or really improved my androgynous look to be viable for the public. But, because I am male, I cannot wear make up, something that IS NOT inherently female, long hair, and nice fun styles, including skirts.

I made an illustration of a much wilder example of what I mean, in the photos section.

[Wendi_cd]

My wife made the point once, should men be wearing skirts and women be wearing pants? After all, it's the men who need the room (and air!), not a seam jamming everything together.

It's also worth remembering that there was a time when women weren't allowed to wear pants.

Maybe one day, when humans have evolved a little more, we'll stop judging and classifying people by the clothes they are wearing.

[Sandra]

Okay I haven't been ignoring this thread just reading and seeing what people have had to say. Some people have got what I was trying to say in that women wearing trousers/pants that are made for women are not crossdressing, yet some here still say we are. How can we be crossdressing if we are wearing the clothes designed and made for us? :confused:

I'd like to thank everyone who has taken the time to respond.

[Shananigans]

If they marketed a bra for men for example, I would probably still buy the bra meant for a woman.

That's the key right there that I was looking for...

Thank you

[kimdl93]

There's no doubt in my mind that I wouldn't wear men's sandals, men's panty hose, men's bikini brief, or a man's satin robe for that matter. They may all look virtually alike, but for me that's not the point. I want and need to wear women's garments. My wife wears my t-shirts all the time...she's not cross dressing. Its no "need" for her, its just handy.

[Emma England]

I am currently wearing a denim skirt and tights (pantyhose for the US). Both of which I bought from a store that does not state whether they are selling men's or women's clothes.

In my opinion, clothes do not have a gender. So crossdressing is never really possible.

What determines whether pants are for women or men? They are always bifurcated (split into two legs) garments.

[marissa_sissy]

I am totally confused, but would only say this. The name of the website is crossdressers.com. I would guess that once here, one cannot judge what they are called.

[Rianna Humble]

I am totally confused, but would only say this. The name of the website is crossdressers.com. I would guess that once here, one cannot judge what they are called.

You are right about the name of the site, but the headers state quite clearly that this site is for Crossdressers, their family and friends. Just because a GG comes to this site and offers support, that does not make her a crossdresser. I went onto the Nile once and that didn't make me a crocodile either.

Incidentally, if it was a condition of belonging to this community that you have to cross-dress, possibly half the members would be forced to leave when you take into account the SO's, the friends, those of us who are TS and other sundry family members. If that happened, this would cease to be a support site.

[Sandra]

I am totally confused, but would only say this. The name of the website is crossdressers.com. I would guess that once here, one cannot judge what they are called.

So are you saying that because I joined this site I have to put up with being called a crossdresser? If so that's a load of crap, I came here to support and offer advice not to be told because I wear trousers/pants made for women that I'm a crossdresser.

[Shananigans]

I am totally confused, but would only say this. The name of the website is crossdressers.com. I would guess that once here, one cannot judge what they are called.

I say call me what you want because I'll take it with a grain of salt. (I too am on this site to support my SO and to support the TG community). My MAIN concern for those saying that GGs wearing jeans are CDing is the bigger picture that they are missing/are in denial of. This finger pointing of saying, "Ah hah! Look! You women do it too! It's exactly the same! Don't judge me!" is a complete downplay of what CDing really is to a CD. I hear it all of the time on the site what it really means on a deeper level and being a key aspect a CD's personality. So, saying it's a key aspect of your personality and then turning around and pointing at a GG and saying, "Oh you're a CD and you don't realize it" is completely stupid. (And, I'm not saying that YOU'RE saying these things in particular...I'm just speaking my general concerns when looking at the majority). I also am concerned by those saying that they CD because not enough women are dressing up. It's funny when you read things like this, but at the end of the day it's just sad.

So, yes, call me a CD if you would like, but when you tell me how important this is to your personality and how much it impacts your life, I won't take you seriously or empathize for you at all.

[Kelly DeWinter]

So are you saying that because I joined this site I have to put up with being called a crossdresser? If so that's a load of crap, I came here to support and offer advice not to be told because I wear trousers/pants made for women that I'm a crossdresser.

Absolutly not, if someone said "Sandra, you are a crossdresser because you wear pants." that would be wrong. No more then when I get asked "Are you gay ?", because I wear earrings. It's a pretty ignorant person who makes general assumptions.
and you are appricated for your support and advice.


I am totally confused, but would only say this. The name of the website is crossdressers.com. I would guess that once here, one cannot judge what they are called.

yes you can, I belong to a Womens Business Networking Group, but it does'nt make me a woman. (although it's crossed my mind a few times to attend enfem)


I am currently wearing a denim skirt and tights (pantyhose for the US). Both of which I bought from a store that does not state whether they are selling men's or women's clothes.

In my opinion, clothes do not have a gender. So crossdressing is never really possible.

What determines whether pants are for women or men? They are always bifurcated (split into two legs) garments.

I think it depends on weather you are presenting as male or female.


That's all fine and good but uh... that wasn't the point of the OP. So... not to be mean, but this feels kinda like...

"Pot to Kettle: you're black"

All the kettles in my kitchen are red, what does that mean ?

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I think one of the big issues here is that the debate is almost as much over our individual definitions of the term crossdresser as much as it is about what is or isn't crossdressing. Also, I think for some people "crossdressing" describes an activity where as for others "crossdresser" defines a part of someone's identity. So to some people a woman wearing pants sold for men (which happens frequently enough) is "crossdressing," but that doesn't make her a "crossdresser."

I've never really minded calling what I do crossdressing, because for me, I'd rather get past the semantics of the whole thing and just say, yeah I wear this stuff, and just be accepted for that. Having said that, I'm not really sure if I consider the way I dress 99% of the time I wear women's clothes to be "crossdresing" or not. I just started dating a new girl and when I had the little "so I do this sometimes" talk with her, she mentioned she often wears men's boxers around the house and sometimes wears men's pants to work. If this isn't considered crossdressing, then I don't really think what I do should be either. However if someone were to say "Oh Rye, you're crossdressing today." I sort of have to say to myself, I wear skirts, I wear tights, I wear makeup. As Shananigans would say, I'm a duck.

It's funny, I honestly get as frustrated as Sandra does when people throw the "women crossdress all the time!" argument, because I think it's a false equivalency as well. I also think it doesn't really serve any purpose of moving any sort of flags towards equality. And even within this very thread there's evidence of something I've said many many times, which is that MtF crossdressers for the most part don't seem to really want to change what is or what is acceptable for men to wear, but actually almost seek to reinforce gender stereotypes by insisting one must play the role of a woman in order to wear the clothes women get to wear.

[Samantha W]

Oh wow. My browser shows the title to this thread as -We are not crossdressers.....and we get fed- So I thought this was about a free lunch some place.

But what a great thread! As for me I see nothing sexy about men. When I CD I feel sexy, if only to myself. So I want to present as a woman and present as best I possibly can. I love the fit, feel and look of womans clothing and when I am dressed just feel more right.

I would go further but Shananigans said it all so much better than I could hope to.

Now I'm still hungry so I'm going to Dennys....

[Sammy777]

Well said Sandra :)

As for clothes in general - here is kink - no pun intended :)

Women who wear flannel shirts, t-shirts, dress shirts, jeans, pants, ect, ect.
BUY THEM IN THE WOMEN'S SECTION.
They are women's clothes designed for and sold to women.

It just so happens that they can and sometimes do look just like men's clothes, but they are not.

Now do women actually wear and/or buy men's clothes sometimes?
Sure, hey sometimes they are comfy, I love my "guy" flannel shirts just as much as I like my "girl" flannel shirts.

Do people point and go cd'er to women.....
No because most if not all men's style /make of clothing is available and made for women as well.

Sorry boys [no offense], that is just the way it is :)

Think of it as a small perk we get to enjoy for [in western culture] being almost forced to on a daily basis to be shaven, wear make-up, heels, ect, ect.

Because a girl is looked at more if she isn't shaven, or wearing make-up, or gawd forbid we run to the store in sweatpants and a baseball cap, then she is for wearing what someone may think is a guys shirt or jeans.

As long as skirts, hosiery, ect are only sold in the women's section you will be looked at and judged for wearing them, even if you are not trying to be, look, or act like a girl. Sorry :battingeyelashes:

PS: This is referring to women only and not F2M's in any way, they are boys after all :)

[Sue101]

The actual point is very simple!! If a person wears clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, that is crossdressing!! If it was made for the same sex, even if it looks like it might be for the opposite sex, it is not crossdressing!!

Sorry cannot agree with this. Let me explain why.
Everyone says that it is the intent behind wearing the clothes that is the deciding factor. So what is the intent of a woman who buys clothes which are exact copies of male clothes, her version indistinguishable from the male version?

See there is a big difference between a female version and a direct copy. A female version is deliberately styled differently so everyone can tell it is not a male piece of clothing. This used to be the way female pants were made. But for the last twenty odd years all pretence to differentiate has gone. Women now purchase exact copies of male clothes. So again what is the intent? Sure women are not trying to present as a male but clearly they are choosing to wear male clothes which means they are sending out a gender message which at the very least is saying not girly/feminine.

Let me repeat a point I made earlier. Selling male clothes (or copies of male clothes) in female shops does not alter the gender message of the item itself. Making minor adjustments to suit body dimensions does not alter the gender message of the item.

Then we get to the issue of presenting as a member of the opposite sex. We are told that women can wear as many items of male clothing so long as they dont pack a banana and bind their breasts then this is not crossdressing. For this reason those who support this idea always focus soley on crossdressers who emulate women and deliberatly ignore those who do not. But there is more. If the dividing line is presentation then what about a crossdresser who has a beard? No matter how much female regalia he wears the presence of the beard means he cannot be considered as presenting as a female. That is also true if the crossdresser walks like a man, talks like a man etc. If the man makes no attempt to mask the fact he is a man then it does not matter how much padding, makeup, wigs he wears, he is not a crossdresser according to this artificial dividing line.

Then we get to the sad part. Now we are being told all crossdressers are transgender but many are just in denial. What an ignorant idea. You can wish it that way as much as you wish, it still does not make it true.

I get it society accepted female dressing in male clothes a long time ago. I get it women dont think of such matters themselves. That has no bearing on whether it is crossdressing since this describes a behavior not whether it is considered socially acceptable.

If tomorrow society accepted male crossdressing, we would still be called crossdressers. But in 50 years time we would not be alled that because sufficeint time would have passed that nobody cared anymore. But everyone would still understand that a male choosing to wear female clothes (or copies of) was deliberately alterating his exterior gender message which informs others how he feels about himself and how he wishes to be treated by others.

[KirbyTnT]

I don't think I'll ever get all those labels :P
Every time I think I've found the label that corresponds to what I do it turns out differently.
I don't feel like a girl. Don't want to be a girl. Don't want to look like a girl - just feel more comfortable in girls clothes.

So I dress like the other gender from time to time.. more as a fashion statement anyway. So I reckon I would be a crossdresser. But most CD's want to be a woman or pass as one. So ok perhaps I'm a trap, since traps have the same clothing style as me. But I see the term "trap" as a compliment, most as an insult.

So I've given up searching for a label for quite a while now.
I just ignore the labels most of the time and just enjoy this community. Whatever it's called :P

[NicoleScott]

Here on the forum, I always thought the beef was the double standard: OK for women to wear pants, but not OK for men to wear dresses, etc...
OK that's a legitimate beef. The different standards of acceptable attire might change some day (year, decade...) but that's the way it is now.
This whole discussion has turned silly, and is all about the definition of crossdressing.

Since I'm here, here's my opinion: it's not crossdressing for women to wear pants, especially if they're designed for women (fit, fabrics, style, etc.) and there's no intent to present as males. Men wearing kilts are not crossdressing, but picture a seven year old "Hey, look at that guy in a skirt!"

I bought a waist cincher years ago for a little shape control, and discovered my back really likes it. I wear one every day now under my guy clothes. I have never desired to underdress, so I don't consider wearing my waist cincher crossdressing, even though it is a female garment.

Again, this topic boils down to the definition of crossdressing, and we're not likely to resolve this.

[ReineD]

Women now purchase exact copies of male clothes.


First, I don't consider the jeans, button-down shirts, and polo shirts purchased in the women's section of Eddie Bauer or women's department stores to be "copies" of male clothes, even if they look similar. The colors are different, there is room for boobs and hips, the shoulders are narrower, and all these things are the biggest differentiation of all, once the clothes are on!

These clothes are now entrenched in feminine styling, and they are solidly women's clothes. NOT COPIES! I'm sorry, but you & other CDers who insist these clothes are men's styles, are simply going to have to step up 70 years and change your outlooks. :)



If the man makes no attempt to mask the fact he is a man then it does not matter how much padding, makeup, wigs he wears, he is not a crossdresser according to this artificial dividing line.

Second, your point above: given the choice of male or female construction boots, how many CDers here do you think would choose the women's boots (in 2 sizes up from their men's regular sizes, of course), just because they are women's construction boots and thus look cuter? I've seen threads about this here. If there was a universally accepted man's jean skirt (sorry Karren) that was identital to the skirt found in the women's section except for the cut, which do you think the CDers would purchase, because it makes their hips look more feminine? :) How many threads have you seen here of CDers who say they can get away with crossdressing at work when they wear women's polo shirts and pants in neutral colors? How many CDers now swear by women's jeans in guy mode, because of the "yummy stretch and softer fabric"?

Women who wear pants & flannel shirts have no thought of gender when they choose their clothing. Men who wear dresses, and women's pants & flannel shirts do. It's as simple as that.

[Lucy_Bella]

Well then..:D

First of all yes... Women ( not all the time ) are indeed Cross dressers!! Crossdressing defined in the correct term and not used as an umbrella is one who wears clothing within a society intended or normally worn by the opposite sex of which they were born as..

Now I can see feathers being ruffled over this thread if folks said to the OP you are a transgender and crossdress ..Big differance..

[ReineD]

First of all yes... Women ( not all the time ) are indeed Cross dressers!! Crossdressing defined in the correct term and not used as an umbrella is one who wears clothing within a society intended or normally worn by the opposite sex of which they were born as..

I'd like you to close your eyes, and picture in your mind's eye ALL the women you know: coworkers, neighbors, the moms at your children's schools, their teachers, your neighbors, your sister's friends, your wife's friends, your mother's friends, your aunts and their friends, all the women who work in places where you shop, ... all of them.

How many of them buy their clothes in mens stores? :wall: :)

[Lucy_Bella]

I'd like you to close your eyes, and picture in your mind's eye ALL the women you know: coworkers, neighbors, the moms at your children's schools, their teachers, your neighbors, your sister's friends, your wife's friends, your mother's friends, your aunts and their friends, all the women who work in places where you shop, ... all of them.

How many of them buy their clothes in mens stores? :wall: :)

If ya wanna call Wal Mart a "Mens Store" Bout all of them.. Any other questions :)

Not a single Female here can not tell me that they have never worn a mens shirt or socks or shoes !! At one time all females have worn a article of male clothing.. Doesn't matter where you buy it either.. I get most my stuff from Ebay does that make it a womens outlet?
The fact of the matter is at one time , women wore dresses men wore pants and even earlier we all wore dresses who cares? Society dictates what is male and whats female in clothing ..My point is ,how do you act while wearing them ? Are you useing the clothing you are wearing as a safety issue or are you just wearing it for comfort? Or like a transgender are you trying to emulate the opposite sex?

[Shananigans]

I'd like you to close your eyes, and picture in your mind's eye ALL the women you know: coworkers, neighbors, the moms at your children's schools, their teachers, your neighbors, your sister's friends, your wife's friends, your mother's friends, your aunts and their friends, all the women who work in places where you shop, ... all of them.

How many of them buy their clothes in mens stores? :wall: :)

I just laughed for a good 5 minutes.

I love you for this comment and I agree with the :wall::wall::wall::wall:

That is the long and short of how the some of the responses on this thread have made me feel.

[Sue101]

even if they look similar. The colors are different We are talking about different clothes. You are discussing female variations whereas I am pointing out the clothes that have the same styling, color and cloth. They are direct copies and that is their selling point.


These clothes are now entrenched in feminine styling Irrelevant. We already know society acccepted female crossdressing a long time ago. This has no bearing on a women's intent when she buys male clothing.


how many CDers here do you think would choose the women's boots (in 2 sizes up from their men's regular sizes, of course), just because they are women's construction boots and thus look cuter? I've seen threads about this here. This is correct for gender identity crossdressing but this forum is not representative of the wider community and the numerous reasons why men crossdress.


Women who wear pants & flannel shirts have no thought of gender when they choose their clothing No-one said they did. Women purposefully choose male clothing for different and subtler reasons which work in the background. For example women would avoid negative female stereotypes like dumb blond, submissive Stepford wife, **** etc while gaining male stereotype qualities like seriousness, confidence, adventurous etc. A woman is aware of the gender content of each piece of clothing and under what circumstances it would be appropriate to use it.

[Lucy_Bella]

I just laughed for a good 5 minutes.

I love you for this comment and I agree with the :wall::wall::wall::wall:

That is the long and short of how the some of the responses on this thread have made me feel.

I think most of the females in this forum have lost touch with the term "Cross Dressing" ..I think quite a few equate this to being trans gender because it is abused as that,under the TG /TS umbrella.. I don't think any "CDER" here is calling you females Transgender by saying you Crossdress. I know that women can wear a males shirt and still be just as femme while doing it than if she was wearing a dress and thats the point .. You are not wearing mens ( or clothing known for men ) to express being masculine .. To were us "Cder " while wearing female clothing do express being femme..

So in short if you are wearing a males shirt or pants you are crossdressing .. But if you are wearing males shirt or pants to emulate them you are expressing being Transgender.. The correct title for this thread should have been I am fed up just because we may wear clothing known to be worn by men, T-shirt ? Jeans? Doesn't mean we do it to be masculine!!

[ReineD]

154408

These are both Cotton Piqué Polo Shirts from Eddie Bauer. The women's version has a bit of spandex in it. I picked similar colors for a closer comparison. Men's $29.95, women's $24.95.

I seriously doubt that most women would buy the men's version. As you can see, the men's and women's are unmistakable.

Sue101, if you are younger than me, it could be there are stores that sell the exact same clothing in different sizes for women and men, so they can achieve an androgynous look? If this is what you are talking about, then it is a cross section of fashion that I am not familiar with.

Most of the women I know do buy polo shirts like the women's version above. Again, they would not buy the male styling. It just wouldn't fit right. That's not saying that some women wouldn't, but I'm talking about the vast majority.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

How many of them buy their clothes in mens stores? :wall: :)


If ya wanna call Wal Mart a "Mens Store" Bout all of them.. Any other questions :) Not a single Female here can not tell me that they have never worn a mens shirt or socks or shoes !! At one time all females have worn a article of male clothing..

:wall: That seems a rather reaching generalization, don't you think. And Wal-Mart is no more a Men's store than Macy's is, considering they have seperate departments for men's and women's clothing.


Doesn't matter where you buy it either..

I buy my jeans from the women's department, does that mean I'm double crossdressing or something. Wait a minute, I'm a TS so it would only be single crossdressing, not double. It DOES matter where




I love you for this comment and I agree with the :wall::wall::wall::wall:

That is the long and short of how the some of the responses on this thread have made me feel.

I'll throw in a :wall::wall::wall::wall: myself.

Veronica

[Shananigans]

I think most of the females in this forum have lost touch with the term "Cross Dressing" ..I think quite a few equate this to being trans gender because it is abused as that,under the TG /TS umbrella.. I don't think any "CDER" here is calling you females Transgender by saying you Crossdress. I know that women can wear a males shirt and still be just as femme while doing it than if she was wearing a dress and thats the point .. You are not wearing mens ( or clothing known for men ) to express being masculine .. To were us "Cder " while wearing female clothing do express being femme..

So in short if you are wearing a males shirt or pants you are crossdressing .. But if you are wearing males shirt or pants to emulate them you are expressing being Transgender.. The correct title for this thread should have been I am fed up just because we may wear clothing known to be worn by men, T-shirt ? Jeans? Doesn't mean we do it to be masculine!!

I know what the term crossdressing means to a gender psychologists...I DID pay attention in my gender education/psychology classes. I am unfamiliar of your definition. I personally leave the defining to the people who have the authority to do so.

I generally don't bother with terms...but, now you have the ball rolling. Let's see what the gender therapists say. (Note that my book was written in 2007, so any addition past this point are not included).

"A crossdresser (or a transvestite) takes pleasure in wearing clothing of the other sex and is likely to achieve sexual gratification from doing so but may have no interest in having a sex change operation or in relating sexually to members of the same sex. [...] Transvestites generally crossdress for sexual arousal. Most are male. Transvestism is considered a psychological disorder only when the person meets all of the following conditions: 1. He/she is hetereosexual. 2. Has intense sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving dressing in the opposite sex's clothing. 3. AND is distressed by these fantasies, urges, or behaviors and they cause problems in his/her life. [...] Most transvestites begin to experiment with cding when they are young children or adolescents. Some feel guilty and uncomfortable about this preference, others do not. [...] Transvestites will often masturbate while wearing clothing of the opposite sex and/or makeup or while fondling specific items."- Exploring Dimension of Human Sexuality by Greenberg, Bruess, and Conklin. Bruess was my professor.

Yeah, I can pretty much say that this does not describe my sentiments towards a good pair of Levis.

Any other terms?

Furthermore, the term "transvestite" was modified to focus more on gender identity and less on just wearing clothing in the 1930s by Hirschfield because the current definition did not fit the people the he was studying.

Maybe you are thinking pre-1930s?

Terms shmerms, I say...but, real definitions of your terms are different from what you assign them as the layman. Or, they just come back to bite you in the butt.

Furthermore, I think these generalized definitions are made based on years of study and clinical experience. They do not mean that everyone fits this definition, but that it represents a majority. It does not, however, include the stupidity that is being voiced by people in a lot of denial as to what really is crossdressing and what is not.

How is that for defending the female gender on our supposed ignorance on crossdressing? It is true that having a vagina causes brain wave static and thus we can't be trusted or taken seriously, but I feel as though we have been spot on.

[Sandra]

Lucy_Bella


No the title was correct thank you.


Some still do not get it and still insist that because we wear trousers/pants made for female we are crossdressing...TBH I'm getting tried of repeating myself....:brolleyes:

[ReineD]

Me too. As fun as this thread was, it's time for me to move on. Thanks for bringing it up though. :hugs:

[Lucy_Bella]

I know what the term crossdressing means to a gender psychologists...I DID pay attention in my gender education/psychology classes. I am unfamiliar of your definition. I personally leave the defining to the people who have the authority to do so.

I generally don't bother with terms...but, now you have the ball rolling. Let's see what the gender therapists say. (Note that my book was written in 2007, so any addition past this point are not included).

"A crossdresser (or a transvestite) takes pleasure in wearing clothing of the other sex and is likely to achieve sexual gratification from doing so but may have no interest in having a sex change operation or in relating sexually to members of the same sex. [...] Transvestites generally crossdress for sexual arousal. Most are male. Transvestism is considered a psychological disorder only when the person meets all of the following conditions: 1. He/she is hetereosexual. 2. Has intense sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving dressing in the opposite sex's clothing. 3. AND is distressed by these fantasies, urges, or behaviors and they cause problems in his/her life. [...] Most transvestites begin to experiment with cding when they are young children or adolescents. Some feel guilty and uncomfortable about this preference, others do not. [...] Transvestites will often masturbate while wearing clothing of the opposite sex and/or makeup or while fondling specific items."- Exploring Dimension of Human Sexuality by Greenberg, Bruess, and Conklin. Bruess was my professor.

Yeah, I can pretty much say that this does not describe my sentiments towards a good pair of Levis.

Any other terms?

Furthermore, the term "transvestite" was modified to focus more on gender identity and less on just wearing clothing in the 1930s by Hirschfield because the current definition did not fit the people the he was studying.

Maybe you are thinking pre-1930s?

Terms shmerms, I say...but, real definitions of your terms are different from what you assign them as the layman. Or, they just come back to bite you in the butt.

Furthermore, I think these generalized definitions are made based on years of study and clinical experience. They do not mean that everyone fits this definition, but that it represents a majority. It does not, however, include the stupidity that is being voiced by people in a lot of denial as to what really is crossdressing and what is not.

How is that for defending the female gender on our supposed ignorance on crossdressing? It is true that having a vagina causes brain wave static and thus we can't be trusted or taken seriously, but I feel as though we have been spot on.


To correct you again..No crossdressing is a term used under the Gender umbrella for Trangender.. Many naval folks will concur to this as they pass over the equater they CROSSDRESS!! This does not make them Transgender thank you very much just as your glass maybe half empty mine is always half full agree to disagree..!! i NEVER said pants although known only in the past as a male attire only just as t shirts made specifically for women was considered crossdressing btw,,... So once again if you wear a shirt made for a man you would be xdressing do not put words in my mouth other than that.. At one time women where socially not permitted to wear jeans don't forget!!

I think I see where we are not seeing eye to eye on this term ..A crossdresser is someone who likes wearing clothing meant for the other sex ..Crossdressing is an act of wearing clothes of the opposite sex..

[VeronicaMoonlit]

[...] Transvestites generally crossdress for sexual arousal. ......Transvestites will often masturbate while wearing clothing of the opposite sex and/or makeup or while fondling specific items."
Yeah, I can pretty much say that this does not describe my sentiments towards a good pair of Levis.

One of the first hints I had that I wasn't a "garden variety CD' was when I responded to someone on USENET who mentioned masturbating in pnatyhose, my response was like:

"Ewwww! Doesn't that make like, an icky mess?" Then I believe I mentioned I didn't masturbate when dressed or at other times either, and though I sometimes got aroused, I didn't want the arousal. And of course my whole virginity/never been on a date thing.


Furthermore, the term "transvestite" was modified to focus more on gender identity and less on just wearing clothing in the 1930s by Hirschfield because the current definition did not fit the people the he was studying.

Last time I checked Hirschfeld's book was only widely available in the German..wonder if anyone's done a new translation that's easier to get a hold of. Always have wanted to read it.


How is that for defending the female gender on our supposed ignorance on crossdressing?

You are very knowledgeable...I bet most of the transfolk here have never even heard of Hirschfeld.


It is true that having a vagina causes brain wave static and thus we can't be trusted or taken seriously,

Ha ha ha ha.


but I feel as though we have been spot on.

Yes, yes you have.

Veronica

[Sarah...]

Jeepers, peeps! Wear the clothes you wear, for heaven's sake! What good does it do to claim women cross dress? What good does it do to claim women don't cross dress? It's bonkers!

Sarah x

[Alice Torn]

After all this, "They're coming to take me away, HA HA. They're coming to take me away HO HO! To the perfect site! Where everything's wonderful ALL the time! Fighting and arguing, things of the past! Accepting, agreeing are hapnin at last! HA HA HO HO HEE HEE!

[Kelly DeWinter]

To correct you again..No crossdressing is a term used under the Gender umbrella for Trangender.. Many naval folks will concur to this as they pass over the equater they CROSSDRESS!! This does not make them Transgender thank you very much just as your glass maybe half empty mine is always half full agree to disagree..!! i NEVER said pants although known only in the past as a male attire only just as t shirts made specifically for women was considered crossdressing btw,,... So once again if you wear a shirt made for a man you would be xdressing do not put words in my mouth other than that.. At one time women where socially not permitted to wear jeans don't forget!!

I think I see where we are not seeing eye to eye on this term ..A crossdresser is someone who likes wearing clothing meant for the other sex ..Crossdressing is an act of wearing clothes of the opposite sex..

Lucy,

I'm sorry I have to correct YOU, As a SHELLBACK who has crossed the equator in the Grand Tradition of the Navy, The ceramony you speak of has no Crossdressers in it, what they have are actors portraying Neptune and his court, which has mermaids in it. I don't think acting and crossdressing are the same thing. Although after six months at sea those burly mermaids did look pretty good.

[t-girlxsophie]

looks like seeking help from a gender therapist is out for me if i seek help in the future.going by their definition of being a transvestite.I dress most days,so its a wonder if not gone blind by now. My wifes away with a pair of mens socks on.oh hell I hope shes not stuffing them down there lol.ggs must despair of us sometimes

[Byanca]

If a woman buys from the men section, she is crossdressing. If the man buys from the women section he is crossdressing. If the shop is not divided neither is crossdressing.

So buy used, problem solved.

[JulieK1980]

I know what the term crossdressing means to a gender psychologists...I DID pay attention in my gender education/psychology classes. I am unfamiliar of your definition. I personally leave the defining to the people who have the authority to do so.

I generally don't bother with terms...but, now you have the ball rolling. Let's see what the gender therapists say. (Note that my book was written in 2007, so any addition past this point are not included).

"A crossdresser (or a transvestite) takes pleasure in wearing clothing of the other sex and is likely to achieve sexual gratification from doing so but may have no interest in having a sex change operation or in relating sexually to members of the same sex. [...] Transvestites generally crossdress for sexual arousal. Most are male. Transvestism is considered a psychological disorder only when the person meets all of the following conditions: 1. He/she is hetereosexual. 2. Has intense sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving dressing in the opposite sex's clothing. 3. AND is distressed by these fantasies, urges, or behaviors and they cause problems in his/her life. [...] Most transvestites begin to experiment with cding when they are young children or adolescents. Some feel guilty and uncomfortable about this preference, others do not. [...] Transvestites will often masturbate while wearing clothing of the opposite sex and/or makeup or while fondling specific items."- Exploring Dimension of Human Sexuality by Greenberg, Bruess, and Conklin. Bruess was my professor.

Yeah, I can pretty much say that this does not describe my sentiments towards a good pair of Levis.

Any other terms?

Furthermore, the term "transvestite" was modified to focus more on gender identity and less on just wearing clothing in the 1930s by Hirschfield because the current definition did not fit the people the he was studying.

Maybe you are thinking pre-1930s?

Terms shmerms, I say...but, real definitions of your terms are different from what you assign them as the layman. Or, they just come back to bite you in the butt.

Furthermore, I think these generalized definitions are made based on years of study and clinical experience. They do not mean that everyone fits this definition, but that it represents a majority. It does not, however, include the stupidity that is being voiced by people in a lot of denial as to what really is crossdressing and what is not.

How is that for defending the female gender on our supposed ignorance on crossdressing? It is true that having a vagina causes brain wave static and thus we can't be trusted or taken seriously, but I feel as though we have been spot on.

This whole comment is just awesome! I thought I was the only one that payed attention in that class!

To the 1930's comment, They would have to be thinking pre-1930's. After all, they are insinuating that pants aren't an appropriate garment for women.

[Lucy_Bella]

Lucy,

I'm sorry I have to correct YOU, As a SHELLBACK who has crossed the equator in the Grand Tradition of the Navy, The ceramony you speak of has no Crossdressers in it, what they have are actors portraying Neptune and his court, which has mermaids in it. I don't think acting and crossdressing are the same thing. Although after six months at sea those burly mermaids did look pretty good. I really don't know or care to be honest never was in the navy .It was a point however and yeah at one time from what I have been told by friends in the Navy ..They did xdress , but like I said I was never in the Navy..

My point was in saying someone who is crossdressing doesn't always make them a crossdresser . How Shanagans put it to me was crossdressers verses my quote as crossdressing .. I will try and make it plain and as simple as I can.

Crossdresser( my life) someone who emulates the opposite sex ( go to Shanagans long post for more info on refering to me saying crossdressing as a term.)

Crossdressing ( what I said) ..Notice the I N G after dress.. This often refers to a motion in present form .. Example I am Crossdressing right now..

Crossdresser .. Notice the E R after dress .. This often refers to the past ..Example on who has crossdressed before.. Oh you wore a dress before? ,never knew you was a crossdresser.

Two different meanings same word..So go back and read my original post me saying CROSSDRESSING and then re read how it was translated to crossdresser in Shanagans. Not a big deal but if you are to be little me use what I said and not add a twist to it..

The English language , see how abused and confussing it can be..? But I will be shot down again so why waste my time ? I tried to explain my quote by what I have been told from friends in the Navy something I have never done thanks for the correction.. That is why I thought the title of this should have been different..

Could be a mistake not a big deal have fun... :D

[Pink Person]

Anyone who self-identifies as a crossdresser is not cisgender. A cisgender person would not self-identify as a crossdresser and would not engage in any significant crossdressing activity.

Anyone who self-identifies as a crossdresser and justifies or defends his behavior by minimizing its personal significance is contradicting himself. If crossdressing is so impersonal and not about self-definition then why bother labeling yourself and labeling other people? After all, it’s all about the clothes and not about you (or other people), right? It’s just a trivial activity that you can’t stop doing and can’t stop talking about in a nonsensical manner.

Some of the manly girlymen on this site are so funny. They should try to sell their false claims to a real manly man once and see how that conversation ends.

[Shananigans]

To correct you again..No crossdressing is a term used under the Gender umbrella for Trangender.. Many naval folks will concur to this as they pass over the equater they CROSSDRESS!! This does not make them Transgender thank you very much just as your glass maybe half empty mine is always half full agree to disagree..!! i NEVER said pants although known only in the past as a male attire only just as t shirts made specifically for women was considered crossdressing btw,,... So once again if you wear a shirt made for a man you would be xdressing do not put words in my mouth other than that.. At one time women where socially not permitted to wear jeans don't forget!!

I think I see where we are not seeing eye to eye on this term ..A crossdresser is someone who likes wearing clothing meant for the other sex ..Crossdressing is an act of wearing clothes of the opposite sex..

Ehh...you didn't really correct me. Nice try though. I don't really care what naval men say about crossdressing...last time I checked they didn't have a degree in gender issues.

Also, at one point of time, women weren't allowed to vote. What does the past have to do with anything? The point is that women have been wearing pants and other various articles of formally mens' attire for quite a while. Long enough that when people say, "Oh but like going on 70 years ago it wasn't the norm and women wore dresses. So, basically since you started off on dresses and switched to pants; thus, you're all crossdressers." It just makes no sense.

I guarantee that when I put on a pair of boxers to go to sleep in, it means quite a bit different than 99% of other people who would be considered crossdressers. Why? Because I'm not a crossdresser for all of the reasons that a gender therapist would laugh at the idea of me waltzing into their office proclaiming to be one.

What is all of this about crossdressing versus crossdresser? The English language has various endings for words to avoid confusion of descriptions? Wouldn't a crossdresser be crossdressing and that's the point of it all?


Last time I checked Hirschfeld's book was only widely available in the German..wonder if anyone's done a new translation that's easier to get a hold of. Always have wanted to read it. You are very knowledgeable...I bet most of the transfolk here have never even heard of Hirschfeld.

To be honest I haven't read his book. There was a history on him in a few books that I've read in my classes and excerpts from his writings. He was definitely a man before his time. But, I think transpeople should know the pioneer...hopefully...doubtfully?


This whole comment is just awesome! I thought I was the only one that payed attention in that class!

To the 1930's comment, They would have to be thinking pre-1930's. After all, they are insinuating that pants aren't an appropriate garment for women.

Haha yes, I suppose women have been wearing pants for quite some time now. Although, I actually do not know the exact date when women actually were like, "Oh my God, I can't get any work done in a dress." Maybe WWII? I'm uncertain. But, I was thinking while I was at work today while I was carrying around dogs and splashing my lab coat in a number of bodily fluids how much I loved scrubs. If I felt obligated to wear a dress, I'd probably cry.

[Lucy_Bella]

Ehh...you didn't really correct me. Nice try though. I don't really care what naval men say about crossdressing...last time I checked they didn't have a degree in gender issues.

Also, at one point of time, women weren't allowed to vote. What does the past have to do with anything? The point is that women have been wearing pants and other various articles of formally mens' attire for quite a while. Long enough that when people say, "Oh but like going on 70 years ago it wasn't the norm and women wore pants. So, basically since you started off and switched to pants, you're all crossdressers." It just makes no sense.

I guarantee that when I put on a pair of boxers to go to sleep in, it means quite a bit different than 99% of other people who would be considered crossdressers. Why? Because I'm not a crossdresser for all of the reasons that a gender therapist would laugh at the idea of me waltzing into their office proclaiming to be one.

What is all of this about crossdressing versus crossdresser? The English language has various endings for words to avoid confusion of descriptions? Wouldn't a crossdresser be crossdressing and that's the point of it all?



To be honest I haven't read his book. There was a history on him in a few books that I've read in my classes and excerpts from his writings. He was definitely a man before his time. But, I think transpeople should know the pioneer...hopefully...doubtfully?



Haha yes, I suppose women have been wearing pants for quite some time now. Although, I actually do not know the exact date when women actually were like, "Oh my God, I can't get any work done in a dress." Maybe WWII? I'm uncertain. But, I was thinking while I was at work today while I was carrying around dogs and splashing my lab coat in a number of bodily fluids how much I loved scrubs. If I felt obligated to wear a dress, I'd probably cry.

Yes I did correct you ..Notice I said crossdressing to start your whole rampage about crossdressers, big difference reread what I wrote you will see. I can careless what any therapist says not my deal and they are all full of crap anyways,..
I just had to correct what I wrote and how you re worded it nothing personal ..Have a nice night.. One more thing ..Years ago my wife and I wore the same size Levis , she always wore mine would that make her a crossdresser she also always wore my shirts..

[Shananigans]

Yes I did correct you ..Notice I said crossdressing to start your whole rampage about crossdressers, big difference reread what I wrote you will see. I can careless what any therapist says not my deal and they are all full of crap anyways,..
I just had to correct what I wrote and how you re worded it nothing personal ..Have a nice night..

There's no "me" to correct, just people with their PhDs in gender therapy and see patients. Clearly, they are full of crap because they help so many people every day with the things that have been troubling them...things that they can't even tell their families about. Yep, clearly they are all a bunch of quacks. It must be all of the experience with a number of diverse people that loads them up to full of crap. But, because you are a single CD in the world, you are the spoken law. I just don't buy it. I just don't understand the need to lump everyone as a CD by whatever weird terms that the people on here who are arguing this are using. Is it that you need justification for what you are doing?'

I've reread your post 3 times and they still don't make one bit of intuitive sense. Adding an -ing to a word does not take away the fact that is descriptive of the word crossdresser. I still have no idea what this even has to do with anything as far as either of our comments are concerned.

But, we'll see...I'll email Dr. Bruess tonight and see what he comes up with on the whole "all women are crossdressers" thing. He'll either clap his hands together and say that there will be sudden spike in the number of jobs for gender therapists or laugh at me like I'm laughing at this thread.

[JulieK1980]

Yes I did correct you ..Notice I said crossdressing to start your whole rampage about crossdressers, big difference reread what I wrote you will see. I can careless what any therapist says not my deal and they are all full of crap anyways,..

This comment, and your "not caring" about being wrong about the Sailors, leads me to believe you simply minimize anything that contradicts your own idea. Thus can I surmise that it's pointless to point out your errors in thought? It seems more of an "I'm right, your wrong" sort of tact your taking, (which seems peculiar since you are arguing from a technicality standpoint.)


=Shananigans
But, we'll see...I'll email Dr. Bruess tonight and see what he comes up with on the whole "all women are crossdressers" thing. He'll either clap his hands together and say that there will be sudden spike in the number of jobs for gender therapists or laugh at me like I'm laughing at this thread.

Perhaps I should specialize in mental health??

[Lucy_Bella]

Jody really don't give two turds what you think either..

SHANANIGANS.. You didn't get what I was saying and placed some stupid Book theroy over crossdressing ..I know what a crossdresser is HELLO!!! Like I suggested about my wife wearing my jeans that were made for men ,Does that make her a crossdresser? Yes would be the answer .. Did she do it to get any sexual Gradification ? No.. Did she do it to emulate a male ? No ..But did she crossdress? Yes!! See how it can be mis understood ? Thats all I am saying ..She also has to buy mens tennis shoes because her feet are to big , does that make her a crossdresser ?

The word crossdresser can have more meanings than one .. Cross meaning opposite dresser meaning putting on clothes or where you keep your clothes ( you pick another multi meaning word) .. So if you are a female that wear male t shirts or jeans or shoes you are in fact a crossdresser not meaning always the term use in the transgender field.. That simple..

[JulieK1980]

Jody really don't give two turds what you think either...

Thanks for exemplifying my point.

[Lucy_Bella]

Thanks for exemplifying my point.

No problem. I always point out pointless opinions :)

[Steph.TS]

I don't believe women who wear pants are crossdressers, these days pants are unisexwomen's pants are actually made differently and can be designed to show off their curves. WHat I will say is women who first wore pants when it was expected only men wore pants, and women wore skirts/dresses were crossdressers, but even then not totally. yes they were wearing men's pants but they weren't trying to pass as men, they weren't saying they were men in women's bodies or anything like that. it was the seeds of feminism, women wore pants to make a statement today it's just something to wear, with several style to choose from.

regardless I'm sure it was just as hard for those women to wear pants as it is for a man today to wear a skirt or dress. but you know something it's people that push these boundaries that keep society changing it's views on what is men's clothing and what is women's clothing. I hope what I said makes sense and didn't offend anyone.

[JulieK1980]

"Deny yourself! You must deny yourself! That is the song that never ends."
-Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe

This quote reminds me of this thread. The denial and minimization of crossdressing leads this to be a futile attempt. That denial runs deep, and critical thinking is not a common attribute among people. No matter how much we may wish it were as simple as the clothes, it is not, nor will it ever be. Clearly many of us are unwilling to see that, instead many will argue a semantic argument over a textbook definition and cling to that notion that, "they are okay, everybody does it!" Irony....


On a side note I blame Helen Boyd for this debate, for repeatedly mentioning the concept that "all women are crossdressers" in her book, "My Husband Betty."

[Pythos]

No matter how much we may wish it were as simple as the clothes, it is not, nor will it ever be

speak for yourself Jody. It IS all about the clothing AND styles for me. I do not want to be a woman. I am male, or a mix of the two. I am not in denial, I am me. These days women wearing clothing that WAS male only is fully accepted.

If they would not be crossdressing, then in my illustration post I am not crossdressing. Every item I have on was made for or marketed toward men, yet it is very feminine looking, merely because of the style. At another male fashion freedom site, that outfit was actually looked at as kinda masculine. A musketeer look someone said, which I was astonished at cause I could not image fighting with swords in that get up :P Ironically on this forum I am said to be crossdressing.

The thread I refer to is the "and illustration part deux" in the pics section.

Oh...and boxer shorts were only for men until very recently. It really should not matter anyway. I just want to have the term "pervert" to go away. Frankly I wish the term crossdresser would go away too. It is now almost entirely one sided and usually used in a derisive manner.

[Daintre]

Thank you all for your contributions this thread will be closed because there has been ample time to express yourself and the current posts are irrelevant. Thank you all for your responses... please remember we are a family here. Please take the time to know the person you are taking to task.