Someone asked me why I say transition starts after SRS [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Katesback

03-20-2011, 10:37 PM

In my past thread one of the people asked me what I mean by transition starting after srs.

I had some time to think about it and I think I can put some of it into words. Below are common traits that every pre op girl I have ever met (me included) exhibit.

When your Pre-Op you spend your days learning how to present yourself to the world in a reasonable way. If you are good you get to the point where most people dont notice you. But you always know you are different. You know your very unlikely to have a meaningful dating relationship. You also tend not to develop CLOSE personal relationships with people as a WOMAN. Sure you might make friends but these friendships tend to be with you being a TS girl since Pre-op girls tend to talk about being trans and you have not learned how to keep your mouth shut. Simply put your putting on a good show but the show is just that, a show. Finally the pre op phase tends to be a really lonely time for most of us.

Because of this knowing your different it is very common for Pre op girls to become very self centered. I dare say that every Pre op is this way and I suspect it is a coping mechanisim.

Also contributing to this is the fact that as a pre op girl you have had to deal with so much crap that you build these walls and basically say screw the world I am doing my own thing.

Lastly as a pre op you are going through this really exciting stage of life and your thoughts are often centered around all the excitment and you ignore other people.

So now we move forward to post-op (also FFS is part of this factor for a lot of girls because they need it). Now all of a sudden you have accomplished this HUGE task and your a girl. Well not quite yet. You Now have to learn to live your life as a woman completely.

First of all life quickly becomes NORMAL. All the excitment is over and your JUST a girl. You have to learn to keep your mouth shut and just be a woman. And then the really tough job starts. Learning how to develop deeply personal and meaningful relationships AS A REAL woman. You have to learn to take down your walls. You have to learn how to LISTEN to people and be part of thier lives.

This is just the tip of the iceberg for why transition starts after SRS (and FFS for many).

Katie

Byanca

03-20-2011, 10:59 PM

First of all life quickly becomes NORMAL. All the excitment is over and your JUST a girl. You have to learn to keep your mouth shut and just be a woman. And then the really tough job starts. Learning how to develop deeply personal and meaningful relationships AS A REAL woman. You have to learn to take down your walls. You have to learn how to LISTEN to people and be part of thier lives.

just a comment to this. I would think many women will take offence. 'Learn to keep your mouth shut and just be a woman'. I disagree. Not exactly my impression of the modern woman.

Real woman, real tranny. real man, real child. What is real? I'm confused? Genitals or personality/brain? Why do you mix this, and not keep the aspects separated?

Melissa Jill

03-20-2011, 11:14 PM

Sorry, what does "FFS" mean?

Steph.TS

03-20-2011, 11:19 PM

you made some interesting points, I honestly don't talk IRL about transitioning, I mentioned it to my mom and regret it, alot of what you said rings true for me, there are some skills/traits women generally have that men don't and while the hormones will effect how you think, you are still you and need to develop these skills/traits to present more perfectly as a woman. but I think that pre-op women can start training themselves for these skills as well, SRS just alters your genitals, and FFS if simply plastic surgery, when you simplify these steps, SRS is a boundry, it's a great leap, but I think you can find pre-op women that exhibit the trait you say a post op woman should have. it depends on the woman how she behaves, and what she does, just like GG.

Sorry, what does "FFS" mean?
feminine facial surgery

pamela_a

03-20-2011, 11:45 PM

Kate, while you bring out many valid points I must take issue that they require SRS. I'm pre-op, full time for 18 months and have had my name changed and gender marker corrected on all of my legal documents for just over 1 year now. In 2/09 when my name and gender marker were changed I believe my transition was ended and that's how I've lived my life since. From that time on I've been a woman, nothing more and certainly nothing less or different. I am a woman, not a "trans" woman, but a woman. Granted I have this birth defect which I'm thankful to have scheduled have corrected this July.

I present myself to the world as me, a woman. I look around at other women and they are just as varied and diverse in their look and attitude. I'm treated as a woman by people with whom I interact, what they may think or suspect doesn't concern me in the least. In the locker room I change modestly as most of the other women do and at no time have I been given any indication that anyone believes me to be anything other than what I am...a woman in the locker room.

I don't agree with the common thought that I need to "learn to be a woman". I AM a woman and as soon as I stopped pretending to be male I discovered being me, a woman, was completely natural. Again, there is NO ONE WAY to "live as a "woman".

Life has been normal for just as long. Once full time and all of my documents were finally corrected my only focus and concern is centered on plain, old fashioned living. Working, taking care of my house, raising my children and just living, just like anyone else.

Dating/personal/intimate relationships are the only place where I agree SRS makes a major difference. But with honesty and openness I believe it can be overcome if he (or she) is really someone who connects with you the person, not necessarily with just your genitals. And I defy anyone to tell me with a straight face that any dating or interpersonal interaction is easy for anyone. I just happen to have one unique situation in my life that needs to be addressed, understood, and accepted.

You also mention breaking down walls built in defense. I know several women (born anatomically complete/correct) who have also built up walls due to things in their life. It's not a "trans' thing, it's a life thing. You also mention learning to listen. Believe me, that is a skill the majority of people need to learn despite their gender. But being a woman I feel it goes beyond just listening. Women tend to be more empathetic. Hearing their friend's cry through the laughter, seeing their pain in spite of the smile.

Having spoken completely for myself and my experience, only on a physical/intimacy level do I see SRS making any difference in how I perceive myself, save the constant reminder of my birth defect every time I use the ladies room. I am who I am, a woman. I've lived my life completely confident in who I am for over a year now and, except for the few stated exceptions above, I don't honestly know what difference SRS would make.

Am I an exception? Possibly. But I don't believe I'm unique. For those who insist on living in trannyland I agree with much of what you say. But I also needed to let you know there are exceptions. I know you'll say I can't be a woman with a penis but I can be a woman with a birth defect. Just a matter of semantics? Maybe. But then maybe it's more a matter of attitude and my confidence in who I am.

Maybe after July I'll find there is a dramatic change and if I do I freely admit I will owe you an apology but until that point you'll have to do better than this to convince me of something contrary to what I know, how I feel, and how I live my life.

gretchen2

03-21-2011, 12:06 AM

Pamela that was well put, that really makes me feel better about myself. I know what I want and I know were I am going but there should be no pressure from anyone else to get me to my destination. It seems to me that after all the surgeries physical transition is over. In my opinion transition starts when you can no longer live within the restraints of male privilege any longer.

Eryn

03-21-2011, 12:14 AM

just a comment to this. I would think many women will take offence. 'Learn to keep your mouth shut and just be a woman'. I disagree. Not exactly my impression of the modern woman.

I think Katie meant "Learn to keep your mouth shut about being TS and just be a woman."

Aprilrain

03-21-2011, 12:18 AM

Kate, I appreciate that you took the time to consider this and better describe what I can only assume was your, and perhaps the TS women you know, experience. I'm not far enough along yet to know if what you say will be true for me or not. I've only been on hormones a little over three weeks now and the changes ive noticed are subtle and inconsequential. Basicly my nipples hurt and I actualy cried the other day, which for me is telling because I haven't cried in years. You mention dating, thankfully I have no libido, another welcomed change so no interest in dating which is good since I'm still married and dating would only make a difficult situation worse. Perhaps my feelings about dating will change in the future I guess I will cross that bridge when I get to it. I do see what you mean about friendships though. I wouldn't say they are superficial but people who knew me before aren't sure what to make of me. Some seem totally cool with it some seem ambivalent and others seem to avoid me. I can say that I see men in a whole new light, I better understand now woman's frustration with mans dismissiveness. On the one hand I'm clearly too weird for most of the guys I knew, who probably just can't get past "cutting it off" but on the other hand I now have the problem of not being excluded when other women are, which is annoying. Oh well they'll figure it out eventually. Most women I know have been very accepting of me but that doesn't neccesaraly mean they think of me as a woman but i cant expect people to change overnight which is kinda what I did. all I can do is be patient and accept what I get for now. I can't help what other people think, I can't hide away from the world either so I got a be trans before I can be a woman. Some day in the not to distant future the hormones will have done what their going to do and my hair will be a lot longer. Ill look as much like a woman as is possible without surgery. Then I'll have some more decisions to make.

Zenith

03-21-2011, 01:19 AM

Oh there is so much to learn post SRS...but transition starts when transition starts...when you accept yourself.

noeleena

03-21-2011, 05:35 AM

Hi .

What we need to remember is we are all different & have different backgrounds & theres a lot of thing s we do differently so its not about one is right & the other is wrong its called ballance of all of us
How iv done things & what iv been through & Jos & our family in so many details of our lifes & what works for one may not work for another. & i come with a very different story ,

There are some wholl look at what we are saying at times & think i cant do that or what ever & will be quite put out , those who come after us , & they will some any way be very down cast .

You see there is no only one way because we are different , all of ue will get to where we need to go just in our own way in our own time & dont think because we have not done it your way or what ever way is intended, its the wrong way for us, Tho there may be aspects that are the same its not in every detail that we go through,

...noeleena...

Kaitlyn Michele

03-21-2011, 06:12 AM

People that get srs that I know personally almost universally say things that are like what the OP said...also i think that people who transition in the open often make different decisions about medical procedures including ffs and srs..

i didn't feel like i needed srs, and some folks counseled me to stay off the gender change money train (ie paying for all that surgery), and why go through with it if you don't really care...but i did go through with it and WOW did it make a difference to my life..I can't say for sure why, but it closed the deal for me and meant more than i ever thought...so i can wonder what would happen if folks that are choosing against srs actually did it..i wonder if they would feel like me

i found that post srs, i was FINALLY able to START leaving things behind...there were thoughts and feelings that were new to me, and the biggest thing was that my "gender issue" totally and completely left my mind..for the first time ever.....i can't overestimate what this means to me...but i can only ever say what it means to ME!! it feels like it would mean that much to anyone , and that's why i can accept a thought like transition starts post srs...but i would never think that my way was the only way... many women that don't get the surgery are able to reach a place in their own head where they are totally ok...i can't possibly disbelieve that, and i don't think that makes that woman any different than me, in fact if they are ts like me, i can't believe how strong and self confident they are ..

I know a very happy and content person, she had an orchi, changed her name, takes voice lessons, transitioned on the job, got BA, HRT and is in a wonderful relationship with her lesbian lover (although I'll be a bitch and say i don't like her lover)...she is totally and completely transitioned it sure looks to me like she is doing great...when i ask her why she is doing it this way, she just shrugs and says "i don't know..i just did"

Melody Moore

03-21-2011, 08:59 AM

Oh there is so much to learn post SRS...but transition starts when transition starts...when you accept yourself.
I have to agree with this because I think that understanding & acceptance of the fact I am a female was the primary
stage of transitioning. This was confirmed for the first time when I started on hormones & my body started changing.
I also further confirmed I was a female when changed my name legally & got my Change of Gender Certificate issued
to me by my doctor & pyschologist. My drivers licence now says I am female which also confirms to me who I really am.
I am referred to as 'her' & 'she' by everyone I meet, I get guys showing me attention now like any other female which
also confirms who I really am despite the fact I am pre-op. So I really started my transitioning as soon as I accepted
myself like you say. My GRS will be the final confirmation I will make in my transition to my new gender identity.

Nigella

03-21-2011, 09:12 AM

One size does not fit all, just because you have experienced this does not mean to say we all experience the same thing. TBPH your posts appear to me to say "its my way or no way".

pamela_a

03-21-2011, 04:48 PM

Oh there is so much to learn post SRS...but transition starts when transition starts...when you accept yourself.
I'd love to hear specific examples of what you've been able to learn only as a post-op, not including the specific physical aspects which I will admit will take some time to learn, like not having to tuck after you pee.

StaceyJane

03-21-2011, 04:52 PM

Honestly I think my transition started when I accepted myself as TS.
From then on I started working, sometimes at a very slow pace, but still working toward being female.
Even though I just started HRT a couple of months ago I know I've benn transitioning for a long time.

Melody Moore

03-21-2011, 05:03 PM

Even though I just started HRT a couple of months ago I know I've benn transitioning for a long time.
I also agree with this, when you think about it, the transitioning started very early on for most of us.
And I think that started when I was a child & first dressed up as a female. So I think that some parts
of transitioning, go slower & faster than others. But yeah, I think we all have been transitioning a very
long time. I think what is most important here is confirmation. When you start doing things like taking
hormones, changing your name, having GRS etc are what we do to really confirm our true gender identities.

Zenith

03-21-2011, 05:31 PM

I'd love to hear specific examples of what you've been able to learn only as a post-op, not including the specific physical aspects which I will admit will take some time to learn, like not having to tuck after you pee.

You learn not as a post-op, but as a woman. And there are volumes to learn. Less about physical appearances or changes in bodily functions, but about relationships with your new tribe, dating/intimacy, and society at large...

Kaitlyn Michele

03-21-2011, 05:36 PM

Stephenie S

03-21-2011, 07:01 PM

Haley Heather

03-21-2011, 07:13 PM

Thank you Katesback.

pamela_a

03-22-2011, 12:06 AM

Still, very few are listening.

There is a profound and palpable difference between a pre-op women and a post-op woman. Mentally and emotionally as well as physically. Accept this fact or not. It's up to you. While you approach this issue with a closed mind, fingers in your ears, and singing nonsense rhymes, you will never get it.

You will "get it" when you get there. You will understand when you experience it. Or you could open your mind to the fact that Kate may be right. You could open your mind to the fact that she may know just a little about what what she's talking about.

After all, she's been there.

I'm not singing songs with my fingers in my ears. I'm waiting to hear something substantial that I don't know or live now that I will after SRS. IF in the case of YOUR transition YOU didn't experience the same things I did does not invalidate MY experience and how I live. Have I experienced everything? Nope, and neither has anyone else. Life is all about learning new things. Yes, I expect there are things I will learn as I go on. Admittedly some of them will only come post op but to make such a huge "I know this and you don't because I'm post op and you aren't" doesn't really mean anything to me.

Katesback

03-22-2011, 12:21 AM

pamela_a

03-22-2011, 12:23 AM

You learn not as a post-op, but as a woman. And there are volumes to learn. Less about physical appearances or changes in bodily functions, but about relationships with your new tribe, dating/intimacy, and society at large...

Humm.. I learn new things everyday and I'm a woman therefore I learn new things as a woman everyday. As I admitted before dating and intimacy are the challenge, but now that you're post op do the challenges to dating everyone experiences suddenly disappear? I'm also confused by who is my "new tribe"? I live and work with and around other women all the time and, as will happen with anyone no matter how they were born, if they spend time with others they will hopefully learn things. As far as society at large I've interacted with the world as only a woman for over 18 months and it's no big deal. Do I know everything? Have I experienced everything? No to both, but neither has anyone else, pre or post op.

I understand the changes and the opportunities those changes open for some. I understand there are some things that may be easier post op but it's nothing that's impossible now (biological differences aside).

As I've already stated. For those who live in "Trannyland" you have valid points but for those of us who live daily in the real world as ONLY female (and not spend the time hiding under the "trans safe" umbrella) you learn, experience, and grow.

pamela_a

03-22-2011, 12:40 AM

I see a recurring statment that everyone is different. When it comes to transition the story is ALWAYS the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You could read a books on transition by 400 different TS authors and the freaking story will be the same.

They're really all the same??? I'm sorry but if I read 400 books by 400 different TS authors I'd hear the stories of 400 different people, but not EVERYONE. The premise is the same but the journey and experience is different.

I read of those whose family turns their back on them, they lose their jobs and homes. Does that happen to EVERYONE? I dare say no it doesn't. I transitioned at home with my family, my son is still living at home. I transitioned at the job I'd been at for over 10 years at a time the company was downsizing and I'm still there and regarded and treated as a woman by everyone I do and have worked with.

Are there those whose transition takes years and years to even start? Indeed there are but NOT EVERYONE. It took me 3 months from my 1st appointment with a gender therapist before I started HRT, the following month I transitioned at work and was living full time as a female. 10 months after my 1st gender therapist appointment my name was changed and my gender marker was corrected.

Look around here and read all of the posts about people afraid to walk out the door wearing panties under their male clothing, I had NO male clothing in my wardrobe several years before I even considered transitioning. Look at all the posts bemoaning no "trans friendly" places to go; the only time I would consider going to a place like that would be to accompany someone who needed support getting out and I couldn't convince her to go anywhere else.
How many posts about which public restroom to use? I've not used a male restroom in 2 years and never had an issue. Posts about using the women's locker rooms and I'm in one in a major fitness center 2-3 times a week.

I'm not saying all of this to brag or say "hey, look at me". I'm telling you that, contrary to your assertion NOT EVERYONE'S STORY IS THE SAME!!

Zenith

03-22-2011, 12:51 AM

18 whole months? Wow. You know it's the truly wise person that says "I know nothing"... I'm not one to let SRS define womanhood, but there is a dynamic with other women when they never knew you as male and you are complete...

Katesback

03-22-2011, 12:59 AM

Pam it is totally ok for you to see things as you do. Same for all of you that dont agree with me. What I would ask you all is that after you have surgery then you write back to me and tell me "Now I get what you were saying". As I have said before I like nearly all Pre-op girls did not agree with what Post op girls were telling me. I like you had the same crap about everyone is unique and that I am a woman NOW. Well as I said I WAS totally wrong.

As Stephanie and the FEW other post op girls that take the time to try to help you see the recurring statments. This is not a popularity contest, it is not a superiority contest, it is not me trying to force you to get srs. No I truthfully dont care if you do or not. I also dont see you as any different than any other woman. But.................... once your post op, well it is different and as Stephaine and I have said you can learn from what we say or you can discount it and ignore it.

I promise I am not going to loose sleep if you dont agree with me, hell I didnt loost sleep when I didnt agree with the post op girls when I was pre op LOL. I was just the typical self absorbed, walled up personality Pre-op girl that thought I knew what I was talking about. LOL.

Katie

Kaitlyn Michele

03-22-2011, 06:11 AM

it's such a huge decision and i wish more and different people would post to this thread...every single post op women i've met (dozens) has had similar things to say..and part of what they (and i ) say is that prior to srs they had no way of feeling the way they do now...the benefits of srs come to you unexpected...its not what i thought it would be...its reductive and intangible ...i thought it was about wearing a bathing suit, not tucking, sex, all those are nice, but it's not that in the end..
its a brand new unexpected PERSONAL and INTERNAL feeling of confidence? closure? authenticity? i don't know the perfect word....but all the noise in my head went poof, and I can barely remember why i did it!! but i read my journal from years back and it reminds me..it feels like i was always this way
kates experience and comments are reflecting those similar things.......

perhaps its self selection..we've got the surgery, we felt the pain and recovery, we paid the $$, it damn well better have worked!!!!! maybe it's simply true that some of us need it and some of us don't ?
but i would never hesitate to recommend to people that can medically tolerate it, and financially afford it to do it...i simply have no question in my mind that it will majorly improve your internal dialogue no matter how good it is now, and therefore improve your quality of life...it's a big part of why so many people leave forums and leave the community, (I left the forum for a while, but decided to keep posting hopefully to make positive contributions)..

pamela_a

03-22-2011, 08:23 AM

Maybe it's just how I'm reading what you're all saying then. SRS is NOT magical. Yes I know that, like many other things that have happened in my life, will change me and allow me to grow and learn more. The title of the post about transition starting after SRS is NOT the premise. Transition is defined as change and things happen to everyone in their life that should result in things in their life transitioning or changing. Maybe I'm just not looking at what you're saying narrowly enough. And Kate, I've said earlier at some point after July I may write you to say I now understand and you were right but if that's the case then I don't believe this discussion is really helpful. If it something that MUST be experienced to understand fully then just telling people about it is a moot point isn't it?

OK Julie. You're right too. I've discounted the other 50 + years of life and experience I have and I submit. I admit I don't know anything so I'll just shut up and crawl back under my rock until after July when hopefully I will have been to the mountain and have attained all knowledge and understanding of all things.

As I've said repeatedly. I know it will change me, I know it will allow me to continue to grow but it's just 1 more step. It's not the beginning of transition and, unless I die, it's not the end. It's 1 part of this entire process I call living.

Kaitlyn Michele

03-22-2011, 08:51 AM

pam,

you described exactly how i felt before my surgery...
just another step, but afterwards (after an extended feeling of sadness) i realized it was much more...this is a good thing if you are planning srs..
i am oversharing my point of view to comfort people that are heading towards srs...and to encourage people that are putting up bs reasons why they are not doing it to reconsider...

magical is too strong a word..
but i remember prior to my first child, a friend described to me how it felt..

He said," all my life i have searched for "that thing"..i've jumped out of airlplanes, i've made lots of money, i tried out for olympics, i've eaten magic mushrooms and everything else...it never could find it, but when i held that baby in my arms for the first time, i had that feeling i was looking for..."..i never forgot that discussion

i have two kids, and prior to my first, i couldn't really imagine what he meant..but when i held that baby in my arms...OMG....

if you or others have reached that point prior to srs, then who am i to deny it? I think that's a wonderful great thing...i had reached a good place prior to srs, and it was just the next thing as you said, but i learned that i needed to do the srs to get to the place i was looking for...(holding my babies was better btw..hehe)..

i may be dramatic in the way i say it..but that's me! LOL

and thank god i feel that way, because everything else about going through transition sucked..

pamela_a

03-22-2011, 09:41 AM

Kaitlyn thank you. I too remember the first time I held my daughter and I had the same feelings when my son was born and magical IS the word for it. Again, speaking just for me, I know I've reached the point where I can go no further pre op. I'm happy and content with my life for the first time. I freely and completely live as me, a woman. Yet I also know the needs I have won't be satisfied until I have SRS and, in turn, that will enable me to continue to grow. Some have called it reaching congruence which I believe is a fitting description of what I expect. My point all along is that SRS isn't the beginning or the end of transition, it's just 1 more step to congruence. What you're describing can't be explained. Just like the first time you hold your baby in your arms: it needs to be experienced to understand.

Katesback

03-22-2011, 10:35 AM

I should point out that along with SRS for many of us is FFS. Because most of us can benefit from FFS. I will say that SRS often comes first and shortly afterwards the idea of needing FFS becomes crystal clear to many. There are some Post-OP girls that cannot reach the levels I have been talking about post SRS because they have to many telltale sighns and so they often remain in the GLBT community (trannyland). Often theses are the people that become activists and write books and talk freely about being trans. They have learned to live thier lives as a Transsexual woman and if that is all they can do then so be it.

Of course the harder and more rewarding route is to fight with every ounce of energy you have to just be a woman and NOT a TS woman.

Katie

Zenith

03-22-2011, 10:59 AM

...OK Julie. You're right too. I've discounted the other 50 + years of life and experience I have and I submit. I admit I don't know anything so I'll just shut up and crawl back under my rock until after July when hopefully I will have been to the mountain and have attained all knowledge and understanding of all things....

All through this thread I have been saying that transition neither starts nor ends with SRS but it is a step that makes one complete...you reiterated it yet you seem to be sarcastic and not listening...that alone shows that you have much to learn...

I'm done here...

pamela_a

03-22-2011, 11:21 AM

All through this thread I have been saying that transition neither starts nor ends with SRS but it is a step that makes one complete...you reiterated it yet you seem to be sarcastic and not listening...that alone shows that you have much to learn...

I'm done here...
If that's what you meant I apologize. I took your comment starting with "18 whole months, WOW" as very condescending and uncalled for, as is your last comment here.

But you're right. I'm done here also

Sharon

03-22-2011, 09:15 PM

I'm getting tired of the unwillingness of some members to actually read the messages that have been posted before responding in anger, throwing accusations of someone else being exclusionary and what have you. You want tolerance and acceptance? Then show that you are capable of doing the same. I have news for you folks -- we're all on the same freakin' team here! Yup, that's right -- we're all in this together whether we are willing to accept that statement or not.

I have a tiny secret to share here -- every single post-op was once a pre-op. Boy, that's news, huh? Don't be so quick to toss your assorted accusations unless you have experienced life from both sides of the pre- and post- wall as those who have actually done so. All they are stating is that there are differences in perceptions, relationships, integrations, and so forth. Who can disagree without first hand knowledge? I have spoken with a few post-surgery people since this thread began (or at least since I returned to the forum last week) and they all -- every one! -- tell me that there are all sorts of differences after the fact.

Some of the language and word choices (Trannyland? Seriously? Tell me to my face that I live in anything akin to a "Trannyland.") have been blunter than I would prefer, from both "sides" (solely referring back to my "same team" usage above) and I wish tact and sensitivity was more common. There are so many ways to make a point without reading as snide. Even so, in cases such as this I wish we could get beyond the words and read the dang message.

God, I so hate being an admin anymore.

pamela_a

03-22-2011, 10:38 PM

You know Sharon you're absolutely right. And since I can't seem to be able to play well with the other children the best thing I can do would be to take my attitude, feelings, and thoughts and go home.

Be well everyone and take care. I hope you find in life everything you need and most of what you want.

Bye

Kaitlyn Michele

03-23-2011, 10:39 AM

ugh...

pam you have the right to your feelings..
but cmon! despite some posts "having an edge" there is nothing going on here other than people trying to describe something positive they've experienced despite the high cost of achieving it.

KrazyKat

03-23-2011, 11:10 AM

If I may, I'd like to share transitioning from another side, the spouse's. A very observant spouse.

First, the original thread post by Kate seems, IMHO, to have been about a wonderful person sharing an experience and how they feel differently with a support group. I really didn't read a lot of the negativity into post #1 that many of you expressed.

I could totally understand what was being shared by Kate, because I've experienced it right in front of my eyes. There is nothing that can compare to the changes that I saw in my spouse(post-op), whom I love dearly with all my soul. I thought things would settle down afterwards, but there is still a lot of changing that happens.

I went through transition as well, from a hetro GG married to a man, to a lesbian GG married to a woman.
I'm proud to share, with the help of Iowa legislature, I'm proud to be with my spouse. I hope this state can keep it together.

Again, I'm sharing how I feel, of course not everyone's experience.

But, if I may, the biggest transition in my spouse, which didn't happen overnight, but took like a full year after SRS, is this:

Even at the age of 55+, the lack of T(even though Karen was on HRT for a year before, including Spiro), in our case, was a very big change, physically and mentally. I really didn't think it would make such a big difference.

If I can share the giddiness of my spouse, like 9 days after surgery in Thailand, when she first saw herself naked in the mirror. I feel truly blessed to have been allowed to share these wonders with my soulmate.

I can't really put it all in words, which is what Kate might be trying to say.
I love everyone, whatever parts they have, however they choose to present.
I hope this gives everyone some food for thought. Please understand I'm sharing my feelings, not judging anyone. I really never feel like I have any reason to judge anyone, honestly.

I do make choices about what works best for me on a daily basis. NOt based on others guilt or manipulation of my feelings. That's a whole 'nother transition. Just saying. HUGS.

Joan_CD

03-23-2011, 03:51 PM

Even at the age of 55+, the lack of T(even though Karen was on HRT for a year before, including Spiro), in our case, was a very big change, physically and mentally. I really didn't think it would make such a big difference.

Hi Kat;

Can you explain a bit by what you mean? I thought T was reduced with the hormonal therapy. What happens after SRS that changes? Thanks!

KrazyKat

03-23-2011, 04:11 PM

Joan_CD

03-23-2011, 04:46 PM

Thanks KK. Very enlightening!

Melody Moore

03-23-2011, 06:10 PM

pam you have the right to your feelings..

Do we really have any rights to our feelings, and to express them here on this forum?

You know what I have been thinking the same way as Pam a lot lately, I am on too am right on the verge of leaving this
forum because it seems that some of us are not allowed to openly express our true feelings here without being censored
& left feeling condemned by the administration here.

Meanwhile it seems OK for some others here to express feelings which fully intended to try & drag other people
down here. We learn & grow so much more from being open & honest about our feelings no matter how right or
wrong they might be. But if dialogue is so stifled it really is no benefit to us. So what is the point of being here?

I know for a fact that another friend I met here (Stephanie Anne) recently left this forum for the exact same reason. So
I wouldn't blame others or try to stop them for leaving. I guess this post will be censored as well because I was honest.

Kaitlyn Michele

03-23-2011, 07:49 PM

melody

you are using semantics...when i say "rights to your feelings" i am stating that loosely and i am not attacking anyone in any way.. that was a sincere statement..
i liked what pam said, i said encouraging things about the posts...i think people overreacted to some posts about post op vs preop....it's not big deal...
if you don't like the discussions around here, then as you like to say in many of your posts, "that is your problem"

Stephenie S

03-23-2011, 08:39 PM

Well, this IS a moderated forum, as I have experienced several times.

I usually think the mods are being unfair or shortsighted or whatever, whenever I am "moderated". But like it or leave it, that's this forum. Generally, I think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages here, or I would be gone, gone, gone.

Stephie

arbon

03-24-2011, 09:14 AM

amielts

03-24-2011, 10:28 AM

Of course the harder and more rewarding route is to fight with every ounce of energy you have to just be a woman and NOT a TS woman.

I agree with this 100%.

Stephenie S

03-24-2011, 11:50 AM

I can see how SRS would mark another leg of the journey and would not be the end of transition. But I don't see how it is the start of transition. Certainly everything pre srs is part of transition to, part of the same journey and coming before srs.

OMG, here we go again.

Go back and read this thread, dear. Read it all. Try to get some sense of what the theme is.

Stephie

Katesback

03-24-2011, 11:55 AM

Arbor that is why I wrote the thing in the first palce. YOu cannot see what it is like so I decided to tell you. Problem is that most Pre-op girl are on the defensive and have thier walls so heavily reinforced, and self absorbed that they immediately attack what is said. Its funny because I even said that is what pre op girls are like and they exhibited exactly what I said in their following posts.

As I said earlier when it comes to transition the real story is always the SAME. I dont need to hear a trans persons story because I already know it. IT is always the same!!!!!! Sure little details are different but cars and dogs look different but the are all cars and dogs. Transition is ALWAYS the same.

Katie

I can see how SRS would mark another leg of the journey and would not be the end of transition. But I don't see how it is the start of transition. Certainly everything pre srs is part of transition to, part of the same journey and coming before srs.

Nigella

03-24-2011, 12:14 PM

No matter what you write or how you write it , people will always read it the way that they wish to , it is human nature to take in what you want and disregard the rest

wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitioning_(transgender))

A broad sweeping statement such as your opening title is the headline grabber, no matter what you write afterwards, it all becomes a mute point, simply by the fact you have made such a huge all encompassing point in the space of a few words.

Jessinthesprings

03-24-2011, 02:50 PM

I belive that that OP was not saying "You are a woman, and your place is to be seen and not heard." Rather the intent was "Shut the F*** up about being transgenderd and live as a woman already."

By the way a very good post. While I don't agree entirely with everything I understand where you come from. I really think transition has no end. Being born one gender, and then raised that gender you have years of conditioning both from environmental and biological enfluences.

Environmentaly there are both sub-concious and as survival mechanisims in play. It takes years to re-learn years of conditioning that has been practiced and reinforced. When young you will act contrary to the way you think in order to achive friends, and or perhaps advoid unnessicary advances of the less savory classmates and eventual head dunking in toilet. In grade school I quickly learned that expressing friendship by holding hands and allowing emotions out left you to be teased for being gay. At the time I did not know why I was different but, I desperatly wanted to be normal.

They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, and now I'm old dog. The mind that was a sponge willing to soak up knowledge at a whim is now resiliant to change... That is why I feel transition never stops...

NiCo

03-25-2011, 06:19 AM

Joan, the differences I saw and see are everything that estrogen does and none of the things that Testosterone does.

Of course, I thought the HRT that GypsyKaren did pre-op did a lot of changes, as did she. I thought we had seen the most of the changes, but after surgery, the changes happened even more. Lots more than I thought possible because of her being over 50 and having T in her body for that long.
The face softening, the voice, the even more loss of muscle mass(biggest change) and of course, the unwanted fat distributions in the waist, thighs, and buttocks.

Maybe this was only GK's case, I don't know. I'm just sharing that I thought the physical changes were already at about max, but they were not. Just sharing what I observed.
The happiness of a "rebirth" of her physical body made a difference in her confidence level, for sure. Doesn't mean life is perfect, but who's is?

Anyway, enough babbling, just thought maybe some of you would like to hear from a loved one observer. Hugs.

Thank you Kat for a lovely post, your partner is very lucky to have someone so caring and accepting! :hugs:

I can completely agree from the male side of the fence. Pre-hysto my body was producing far more estrogen than what should be, even though I was on an estrogen blocker. After the hysto [no joke, within the week!] my voice dropped and has stayed stable since. I noticed my body change more [went from a 36-32-32, to a 34-30-30] with muscles and not a lot of fat. I weighed more after the first month than I have ever in my life.

Testosterone + estrogen blockers worked. They made my voice break, skin oily, more strength...all the normal changes...but the hysto completed it all. And you know what? Surgery does make things different. Pre-op I didn't listen to post-ops...cause "I knew best" obviously. Now I know, I understand. It is a big difference physically and mentally...though it does not make anyone more of a woman or more of a man than someone who is pre-op/ non-op etc.

Mental changes? I am not paternal anymore. Before the surgery I clucked like a hen. Srsly. Now, I don't have the cravings. I have my nephews and my wee brother and that is enough. I don't want kids, not even adoption.
No more monthly rage. I no longer feel like I want to kill someone for looking at me the wrong way. I no longer crave chocolate. And yeah, although I never had physical monthly rage, I had the emotional effects. Next month I am having tests for being intersex...

...I have been avoiding this test for years, if it comes back that I am [which is highly suspected by the doctors] then I will feel more cheated, like I was half way there...

...but It won't change a thing in regards to who I really am. I'm still the same person. And I don't know how a man is supposed to act or think cause I'm just me and I haven't changed my usual personality because I transitioned. I really don't get it when people say "learn to be a woman" or "learn to be a man" cause I didn't realise there was a code of conduct in regards to gender/ sex.

I only relaxed after hormones and surgery, because I felt free. Things that annoyed me pre-op don't annoy me now. Tbh, nothing anyone can say or do can hurt me now. The only thing that stings is the hysto and chest were the only surgeries I could have due to results on the other. I will feel like crap until surgery results improve but I'm not holding my breath that it will happen in my lifetime. I consider myself post-op because I am as far as I can physically be.

Everyone's account will be different but I am just agreeing with those who say that there is a difference to pre and post-op. You never know for sure until you are, but I don't want people to think that you need surgery to be the gender you feel you are, cause that would be absolutely disgusting. We're all on the same boat just at different stages. I have finished transition as of last year. I have had surgery and all my documents changed [passport, birth certificate] so I believe that I have "served my sentence" [lol I like to describe my transition like jail time cause of how restricted my life was pre-op].

There is more to being a man or a woman than what anatomy they have. I'm sure you all know that.

All the best to the ladies due their surgery [I'm sure one or two or so said they are having it later in the year?] good luck! 4reelz. Tis an amazing thing! :)

Anyway I talk too much...time to head back into the shadows of the forum.

Steph.TS

03-25-2011, 06:58 AM

I really don't get it when people say "learn to be a woman" or "learn to be a man" cause I didn't realise there was a code of conduct in regards to gender/ sex.
I'm a GM, and in many ways I am still learning how to be a man, I don't like doing risky things, I try to be kind an respectful of everyone, and I'm not that into sex believe it or not. I was at a pub with people from work as celebration we did as a company, and this guy who always seems to want to test me to see if I'm a 'man' starts asking me to rate the waitress based upon her appearance. I'm not comfortable doing this, I never do this but he wouldn't let up.

point is there are stereotypical behaviors expected for both genders and this creates expectations, living outside of those expectation creates questions about yourself. listening to the guy wanting me to rate the waitress you think that I should be crude, into sports or cars or wrestling, women, and drinking. I think he keeps testing me because I don't fit his expectations as a man, and I wear clear nail polish...:heehee:

NiCo

03-25-2011, 07:50 AM

What I meant is I have noticed for many years that trans people, for example a female-to-male will say [after living the majority of their life in a female role] that they are “learning to be a man”. By that they normally mean they are learning because they have not grown up in the male role. What I cannot understand is how anyone can say they are learning to be a man or women when they are already, regardless of current/ past genitals. I think I feel this way because when I encounter someone who is trans, I cannot picture how they were in their opposite role. I see them as male or female, the end.

My parents tried to enforce female things on me like dresses and stuff. I tried to be feminine but I couldn’t understand why I couldn’t do my hair or make-up the same as the girls at my school…why I failed at a lot of things feminine but passed well in masculine, like at football [soccer] or other GRRRR MANLY stuff. I didn’t look manly pre-transition, I was very feminine looking and I still have an effeminate appearance facially so it wasn’t like I was just all-round butch. Obviously, people just assumed I was a tomboy, until I came out. They were shocked…actually, that is an understatement. They didn’t think someone so feminine could “want” to do what I have done.

So, to me it was all just natural despite what I looked like or seemed to be. I was masculine despite looking feminine…and that is what I mean when I say that I don’t understand when people say “I had to learn to be male” or vice versa. I know some people say they were forced into the masculine or feminine role. I was forced, but I just couldn’t *do* it no matter how much I tried, or how much energy I put into trying. In the end I just did the easiest thing and came out at 16 and battled head-on my disapproving, narrow-minded and physically and mentally abusive family/ friends and told them to accept me or GTFO.

As I said everyone is different, my opinion won’t be the same as everyone else’s :) I appreciate everyone’s opinion, but I am not saying all the above ^^^ as though it is a fact, it isn’t. There are no rules, but I like to see what others have to say on the matter. This is not intended to be offensive in any way.

BUT, I do like your post Jen:

I'm a GM, and in many ways I am still learning how to be a man

It is just not in the context that I meant :) thank you for sharing your thoughts and stuffs :thumbsup: