Hypothesis: Spectrum from CD to TG to TS

[Phoebe P.]

In addition to my chosen profession, I have a degree in Chemistry with an extensive background in Anatomy & Physiology.

Stay with me, there's a point here!

All fetuses start out as females. Part way through pregnancy there is a Testosterone Wash that occurs. This causes the transformation from Female to male for the fetus.

If there is no Testosterone Wash, the child is born a FM. If there is, the child is born a male. With the Testosterone Wash the clitoris changes to the penis.

It's been a while, but stay with me. This has bothered me since I was 19 in Anatomy & Physiology...

I've seen many posts about a spectrum of T/G.

If a fetus receives an "incomplete" Testosterone Wash would that make them more likely to portray feminine traits OR in the case of a female baby if she received more testosterone than estrogen would that make her more likely to display masculine traits?

The TW would explain the range of people and personalities on this board -- from very feminine GG's to CD's to TS pre & post-op to TM.

This has bothered me for years and I can't believe no one has researched it!

What do you think?

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Interesting, how can we test this hypothesis? Are there any articles in any of the scientific journals in reference to this idea?

[Phoebe P.]

http://www.dcdoctor.com/pages/rightpages_wellnesscenter/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment.html

It was in my textbook in A&P in college. I've done research and all babies start out the same -- a blank slate.

If you do a search you'll turn up some surprising info. John's Hopkins might help!

[Phoebe P.]

Check the 8th week of development in the link.

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

I have no idea in biology, and simple anatomy i know I have masculine parts I curse hence this stupid question: in the 8th week the testes produces testosterone before the embryo develops masculine parts so when does this Testosterone wash happen, or is this the hypothetical suggestion? Also has there been an "innateness" implanted through genetics that causes some things to arise seemingly natural before the brain starts to develop, example female traits or is this naturally learnt during the babies development with its surroundings and more women who are caring for the infant? Hence the infant's fast learning phase absorbs more feminine ideas than masculine and so develops this female side leading to a yearning for female things? OR am I talking garbage.

[Rianna Humble]

If a fetus receives an "incomplete" Testosterone Wash would that make them more likely to portray feminine traits OR in the case of a female baby if she received more testosterone than estrogen would that make her more likely to display masculine traits?

If we are talking about the "wash" that determines sex rather than gender, then I believe that the "incomplete wash" would contribute to the incidence of intersex condition.

My understanding is that there is more than one release of hormones during pregnancy where one determines sex and another gender (i.e. the 2nd affects the development of the brain) BICBW.

IMNSHO, the hormone release that determines gender could well account for a part of why we have such a broad spectrum of members since the outcome is not binary it could lead to greater or lesser degrees of feminine brain-gender (whether that be in FtMs with a female body but a stronger or weaker male identity or in MtFs with a male body but a stronger or weaker female identity). However, I do believe that there are also other factors that come into play.

[Pink Person]

I believe whole life sex hormone exposure is the primary cause of all sex, gender, and sexual variation in the human population. Hormone exposure as we develop before birth and mature after birth makes everyone different. Some of these differences are significant. Consequently, transgender people are just as natural as cisgender ones, but not as common.

[Kate Simmons]

Biologically this is true but the CDing quirk has to mainly do with societal conditioning for the most part.:)

[noeleena]

Hi,

Then youll need to look at those of us who are intersexed androgynous & a mix of both male female go down our road & youll see who we are. try ,

Bodies like ours
GendersInX.org

There are others of cause mind you if your not interesex you may not get in im on three .

...noeleena...

[kimdl93]

Its actually been researched. I saw a segment on 60 minutes over a year ago that addressed the effect of birth order and the gender of elder siblings on gender and sexual preference. It seems that if you have an older brother (immediately elder sibling) you have a somewhat higher probability of being homosexual or of having a more feminine gender identification (regardless of outward genetalia). The probability increase with each elder male sibling that preceeds you. I have six - so what do you suppose happened!!!!

[Debglam]

I think that it is a little more complicated than that Phoebe. I am currently reading "The Riddle of Gender" by Deborah Rudacille and she went into this in some detail. (I'm no scientist, mind you :) )

There is the influx of hormones at key times but there are also receptors that have to be properly functioning to receive those hormones. It has been found that certain drugs that used to be prescribed for pregnancy were functioning as "blockers" and causing intersex physical conditions. It is theorized that this may also have led to GID conditions.

There is also a point which I think I need to re-read but if I understand it correctly, levels of testosterone in the mother trigger levels of estrogen, and the reverse is true also. This has an effect.

All very interesting and I personally believe that this is the most likely cause of transgenderism.

Thanks,
Debby

[Kitty Sue]

Interesting. Over the past several days I have been wondering about this. I went to trans. support meeting on Sunday. After the meeting I spoke with a trans woman. She insisted that CD, andregen. type people did not actually exist. Rather, the only 2 genders were either male/female. I interpreted her opinion as "you(meaning me) are to scared to admit you are a trans-woman, and therefore transition." I told her my experience was different from hers(at least at the moment.)

I do not think I want permanent female body parts, but I do not want permanent male body parts either. I suppose what I really want is a magic wand.

I apologize for going off topic, however this has occupied my thoughts for the last few days and this thread seemed to reinforce my belief that once again there are indeed shades of grey between the black and white poles and it is okay today for me to be, me.

I did read several years ago that if a pregnant woman went through a significant level of stress gender identity in the child could be affected. Supposedly a study in Germany looked at children of the baby boom in Cologne. During the war allied bombers turned the city into rubble. In the worst areas that received the heaviest bombing, the study found there were higher numbers of adult children identifying as homosexual. Granted the study looked at gay v straight, not trans folks. However, I cannot help but wonder if this is similar for those of us in the trans community too.

So thanks very much for original question. I suppose I simply received a partial wash. Not at all surprising as I never even wash my face properly after shaving each morning.

[sometimes_miss]

Nature or nurture; I'm sure that if you study every single human, you'll find every possible combination of causes of gender varieties.

[Cynthia Anne]

Don't know much about this! But when my testosterone was washed, the water was cold and very dirty!

[Rianna Humble]

Don't know much about this! But when my testosterone was washed, the water was cold and very dirty!

. :rofl:

[Julogden]

That might explain some of us, but I think there's been work done on brain structure showing that some gender identity variations may be related to genetics rather than incomplete testosterone wash.

I suspect that variations in testosterone sensitivity might be more of a factor, but I'm speculating based on some of the things I read and don't know of any work that addresses variations in testosterone sensitivity. I do know that some males are completely insensitive to testosterone, so even though the testosterone wash occurs, their body doesn't react to it and they are born with external female genitalia and are assigned as female at birth.

Carol

[Jorja]

I keep trying to tell people the true cause of transgenderism but no body will listen. It's the aliens!

[BreenaDion]

You Tube -TEDxTerryTalks-alexander Cannon-10-03-09
http:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXRuwh5WqMI
I think Terry explains it so we all can understand.
Breena.

[GirlieAmanda]

OMG I have the same exact theory and my therapist has confirmed the exact theory. Wow chills here. I KNOW this has to be it. It makes total sense. How can kids at a young age have a desire to be more female and try female things. It is programmed at that point. The chemistry in the brain HAS to change forever. I feel this absolutely is true. There is no escaping these feelings for us. You can't throw it away, you can't quell it forever, you can't pray it out, you can't drug it out. It will come back because it is just in your brain. To what degree is the question I think and that determines how far you feel you need to go to feel right.

[suzy]

Interesting thread. I don't have a clue, but I do know we all start out in the womb as a female, hence nipples. In my case, my mother had several boys and they desperately wanted a girl. That was on their mind as they began working on another pregnancy....me. They didn't know my gender until after birth, but both parents expected a girl. I was treated differently than my brothers, with a much more feminie flair sometimes even wearing dresses as a child while at home.

My testerone levels have always been low, and I have little body hair. Very little facial hair and no chest hair. I have a full head of hair and pubic hair but the hair on my legs is light....am wondering how the parents expectations played a part, if any in my physical characterists and/or my desire to dress?? Just wondering....:daydreaming:

[Persephone]

I used to teach some of this stuff at a university and agree with sometimes_miss and Julogden. You are looking at only one of at least six possible causes. And the six can work individually or together to produce differing degrees of gender identity and/or sex organs.

In addition to "testosterone wash," there are also things that can influence or damage the X and Y sex determination chromosomes.

In the sex chromosome pair (pair 23) there can even be missing or surplus chromosomes, so all or part of you can be XO (no second sex chromosome), XX (female norm), XY (male norm), XXY, XYY, XXX, or ???

Then there appear to be sex and gender genes on other chromosomes that can control subtle (and sometimes even not so subtle) expressions of sex and gender.

Then there are the mother's hormone levels and the levels of hormones in the fetus, along with when in development the various "washes" occur.

and on and on and so forth.

That could explain why there is so much variation in the CD/TG/TS/whatever spectrum and why each of us is a unique and different individual, not easily subject to being categorized and labeled.

[GaleWarning]

Great thread! Wouldn't it be nice if, as a result of it, we stopped trying to put each other in boxes and instead switched our focus to the things we have in common?

[LilSissyStevie]

There is no use in trying to determine "the" cause of TGism. Gender appears to be a complex interaction between physical and cultural factors as well as individual experiences and choices. Gender isn't even static in any one individual. My mother took DES while pregnant with me but I can't know if that was a factor for me. I also had some childhood experiences that could be used to explain my gender issues, but they could also be used to explain why if I had become a serial killer or a Buddhist monk. LOL! We tend to take whatever known facts we have and spin them into a story that explains what we see. When we get new facts the story gets revised, ad infinitum. That gives us the illusion that we have some measure of control over our world. Sometimes it's better to just accept things without any explanation.

[Shananigans]

It's hard to say. It's the whole nature versus nurture argument and it's probably a blend of both things.

Or, maybe pre-op transsexuals are like fish...there aren't enough female fish in their community so they change their sex. But, probably not.

Though knowing some mating strategies of different animals could lend some interesting hypotheses as to the implications on transgendered people. Is it evolutionarily favorable in the long run? Again, probably not. But, neither is birth control...unless we let only the "awesome" people breed. But, then all TG people and probably myself don't make the cut.

I'll keep running around in circles on biological debates; however, my point is that it's going to be hard to throw a paper down and say "this shows a correlation with this" when it comes to TG people. There are so many differing factors as far the person's background that it would be hard to pin point one specific event. Also, good luck at getting approval to test variable testosterone washes in utero for humans and then seeing what happens to them in the long run.

Thus, no new shiny paper in Cell about it because...

No data...no paper...no statistics...

Your guess is as valid as anyone else.

[UNDERDRESSER]

I used to teach some of this stuff at a university and agree with sometimes_miss and Julogden. You are looking at only one of at least six possible causes. And the six can work individually or together to produce differing degrees of gender identity and/or sex organs.

In addition to "testosterone wash," there are also things that can influence or damage the X and Y sex determination chromosomes.

In the sex chromosome pair (pair 23) there can even be missing or surplus chromosomes, so all or part of you can be XO (no second sex chromosome), XX (female norm), XY (male norm), XXY, XYY, XXX, or ???

Then there appear to be sex and gender genes on other chromosomes that can control subtle (and sometimes even not so subtle) expressions of sex and gender.

Then there are the mother's hormone levels and the levels of hormones in the fetus, along with when in development the various "washes" occur.

and on and on and so forth.

That could explain why there is so much variation in the CD/TG/TS/whatever spectrum and why each of us is a unique and different individual, not easily subject to being categorized and labeled.I knew there were other factors involved, but didn't want to go researching them now, thanks for this post. The whole thing on nurture is open for debate as well, so your Mother was a strong personality? WHY was she strong? Did she have extra chromosomes? Weak testosterone wash? Get the idea?

I would love for someone to do a detailed analysis of what the various types of people in the spectrum have as a...physical basis. Do those that feel they have to transition have extra/reduced chromosomes? Do those who just want to dress have reduce testosterone?

Is there some kind of physical basis? Are there identifiable differences in the brain? I'm just such a nerd, I always ask these sorts of questions.

[James Kaon]

OMG I have the same exact theory and my therapist has confirmed the exact theory. Wow chills here. I KNOW this has to be it. It makes total sense. How can kids at a young age have a desire to be more female and try female things. It is programmed at that point.

Great thread! I am a big fan of science, probably more of a cosmic nature but still, asking questions always gets me interested :). And I have been truly trying to work out why 4 months ago I found it was a turn on to wear girls stuff. But although still scientific, how much can this be attributed to the biological things doing their ummm thing? I quote GirlieAmanda because of the suggestion of programming. Maybe thats true, and there is something inherent at a genetic level - but I really think it has more to do with how those genes are exposed to their immediate environment - family, and then pretty soon after during the maturing stage, society. I dont have the answer and GirlieAmanda, I'm not disagreeing with you and perhaps at a bilogical level, some genes respond more and some less to that environment. Even so, im just not so sure that our destiny is so mapped and it is just how we cope with it - happy or not? Evolution itself is about genetic streams that thrive and do not thrive - the ones that do continue to evolve (by surviving and then procreating lalalala), the ones that do not die out. Humans are at a level where the intellect has some input too - I think. Hmmm i think I'm entering a verbal cul de sac! Great food for thought though :)

Jx

[sissystephanie]

The one thing that I have not seen mentioned in this thread is what happens once the person is born! Once that person is old enough to think for themselves, maybe anywhere from 4 to 6, their brain is the one making decisions! I started crossdressing at age 6, wearing my older sisters panties! I have never wanted to be a woman, just to dress, and maybe to look like one. For most of the past 70 years I have done that! I dress enfemme and go out in public at least part of almost every day. It is my life and I do what I want. My late wife knew I was a CD and accepted it. But I have never dressed around my 2 children, and never will. They both know I am a CD, but don't wish to see me dressed!

I guess what I am saying is that there may be biological reasons why we CD's do what we do, but most of it is purely mental!! As I have said before, if you really want to completely stop crossdressing you can!! BUT YOU REALLY HAVE TO WANT TO!! Unless you are a very weak person, your brain can do that! I did it for a 5 year period, and only started dressing again because my late wife begged me to!! She missed Stephanie in her life!!

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

I wonder if I have had a testosterone wash was I wrung out to dry or spun dry cos my head is still spinning? Maybe why I get a lil mixed up like that question "Who am I?". I should complain coz there is still some Testosterone residing here, must've been a bad rinse cycle.

[docrobbysherry]

I always thot women were CLEANER than men! And, for the most part, I think they r!:thumbsup: (Judging by the males and females I know).

However, some of the dirtiest apartments I've ever seen, were occupied by females!:doh: Obviously, they weren't properly "washed" in the womb! And, those bad habits must have STUCK!?:eek:

[Fran Moore]

All I know is that if they come up with a "wash" to make me "normal", they can keep it. I like myself just the way I am.:D

Suzanne

[Cynthia Anne]

All I know is that if they come up with a "wash" to make me "normal", they can keep it. I like myself just the way I am.:D

Suzanne

Suzanne, Hon.! That was beautiful!

[Sophie_C]

I'm not in the mood to look it up, but the most recent hypothesis is that gender identity is based on a specific component of the brain. I know I don't exactly have the most detailed explanation in my hands, but I look at gender identity as the same sort of spectrum that Kinsey had for sexual preference. And just like sexuality, most people land up in their expected side. But, there are people who are in the middle, and those who land on the far opposite site. Men to Women, Women to Men. And, this can apply to people who do not identify with the opposite gender! Many people land in the middle and are most confortable with masculine and feminine characteristics.

Let me explain further. I personally do not like to use a scale of 1 to 5 like Kinsey since it is too basic, so I'm going to do a 1 to 10.

1 will be completely feminine, think Elle Woods from 'Legally Blond.':

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/7522/reesewitherspoonlegally.jpg

2 / 2.5 would be for Karolina Kurkova and Andrej Pejic

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/4239/karolinakurkovaandandre.jpg

4 is Ellen DeGeneres:

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/9381/americanidolellendegene.jpg

6 is Zac Efron:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6475/zacefron31713275.jpg

7.5 would be David Beckham:

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/851/davidbeckham6468308.jpg

10 will be completely masculine, say like 50 Cent:

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9624/50cent11315856.jpg

Now, per people with GID,

1 would be for Caroline 'Tula' Cossey

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/1504/vguz2a9y570w2z9v5892997.jpg

10 would be for Buck Angel:

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1571/n5376503976766556180473.jpg

Now, I know this is only appearance, but behavior is also the same way. You see, people even without GID naturally have a gender identity they fall in, regardless. Some are more in the middle. Some are at the ends.

Ellen DeGeneres (who I love, btw) is not the sort of girl who's going to be running around in skirts all day, getting her nails done all fancy, shopping for the latest jewelry. That's not how she naturally is. Sure, she can be fashionable, but it's not going to be in the most 'femme' way and her personality is a lot more 'tomboy.' Likewise, Zac Efron seems to actually be wearing makeup in the photo and I'd be surprised to hear him playing football with his friends. What i'm getting at is that gender identity varies person to person and is not always what you expect, know about yourself or even what people display.

So, with that explained, you must remember that crossdressing, independent of gender identity, is a 'kink'. It's something that gets a person's rocks off, just like, someone can get their rocks off from leather, or PVC, or beind dominated or dominating. Yes, they're all different, but they all give a person a 'kick.'

With that being said, that's how it gets blurry. There are crossdressers who are any point on the scale of 1 to 10. That's how you get the hairy linebackers with heels and nylons shocking you on the corner in a city. They're a 10, but getting the kick of being a CD. And, there are crossdressers who are, of course a 1.

And, most people are NOT aware of where their natural identity falls in the gender spectrum.

But, for those not on the matching side of the scale, there's a problem. You see, when all is done and you're in drab, something's not right. You're still not yourself. And, eventually you learn that feeling, that understanding is inescapable. Then you learn, there really wasn't much a kick (sexually) in the first place. It was more freedom to be yourself. And, then it's whatever path you take to being or not being who you really are (being transgendered).

Is this a little clearer?

Lastly, know that the true bluriness is for those in the middle. There are people who have some GID, and some of the crossdresser kink. And, for those people, they may never come to a balance and understanding, since the both overlap. But, that is the how and the why to it all...

[Shananigans]

I'm not in the mood to look it up, but the most recent hypothesis is that gender identity is based on a specific component of the brain. I know I don't exactly have the most detailed explanation in my hands, but I look at gender identity as the same sort of spectrum that Kinsey had for sexual preference. And just like sexuality, most people land up in their expected side. But, there are people who are in the middle, and those who land on the far opposite site. Men to Women, Women to Men. And, this can apply to people who do not identify with the opposite gender! Many people land in the middle and are most confortable with masculine and feminine characteristics.

Let me explain further. I personally do not like to use a scale of 1 to 5 like Kinsey since it is too basic, so I'm going to do a 1 to 10.

1 will be completely feminine, think Elle Woods from 'Legally Blond.':

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/7522/reesewitherspoonlegally.jpg

2 / 2.5 would be for Karolina Kurkova and Andrej Pejic

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/4239/karolinakurkovaandandre.jpg

4 is Ellen DeGeneres:

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/9381/americanidolellendegene.jpg

6 is Zac Efron:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6475/zacefron31713275.jpg

7.5 would be David Beckham:

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/851/davidbeckham6468308.jpg

10 will be completely masculine, say like 50 Cent:

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9624/50cent11315856.jpg

Now, per people with GID,

1 would be for Caroline 'Tula' Cossey

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/1504/vguz2a9y570w2z9v5892997.jpg

10 would be for Buck Angel:

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1571/n5376503976766556180473.jpg

Now, I know this is only appearance, but behavior is also the same way. You see, people even without GID naturally have a gender identity they fall in, regardless. Some are more in the middle. Some are at the ends.

Ellen DeGeneres (who I love, btw) is not the sort of girl who's going to be running around in skirts all day, getting her nails done all fancy, shopping for the latest jewelry. That's not how she naturally is. Sure, she can be fashionable, but it's not going to be in the most 'femme' way and her personality is a lot more 'tomboy.' Likewise, Zac Efron seems to actually be wearing makeup in the photo and I'd be surprised to hear him playing football with his friends. What i'm getting at is that gender identity varies person to person and is not always what you expect, know about yourself or even what people display.

So, with that explained, you must remember that crossdressing, independent of gender identity, is a 'kink'. It's something that gets a person's rocks off, just like, someone can get their rocks off from leather, or PVC, or beind dominated or dominating. Yes, they're all different, but they all give a person a 'kick.'

With that being said, that's how it gets blurry. There are crossdressers who are any point on the scale of 1 to 10. That's how you get the hairy linebackers with heels and nylons shocking you on the corner in a city. They're a 10, but getting the kick of being a CD. And, there are crossdressers who are, of course a 1.

And, most people are NOT aware of where their natural identity falls in the gender spectrum.

But, for those not on the matching side of the scale, there's a problem. You see, when all is done and you're in drab, something's not right. You're still not yourself. And, eventually you learn that feeling, that understanding is inescapable. Then you learn, there really wasn't much a kick (sexually) in the first place. It was more freedom to be yourself. And, then it's whatever path you take to being or not being who you really are (being transgendered).

Is this a little clearer?

Lastly, know that the true bluriness is for those in the middle. There are people who have some GID, and some of the crossdresser kink. And, for those people, they may never come to a balance and understanding, since the both overlap. But, that is the how and the why to it all...

All I know is that 50 Cent would be happy that he is the portrait of masculinity.

So, what do you think about this spectrum and the effects of the testosterone wash in utero?

[Sophie_C]

Well, about 50 cent, it was simply the first thing I thought of. In terms of a spectrum as you're indicating, I disagree, since it's completely not addressing the 'kick' people get from fetishistic crossdressing. Could some sort of hormonal effect cause a change in brain structure, and thereby change gender identity? Yes. It is possible, but there could be other causes as well. But, the overall spectrum I disagree on, and that's what I wrote about in there. I was showing a different spectrum and how crossdressing overlaps it in different ways. What about my argument do you disagree with?

[Shananigans]

Well, about 50 cent, it was simply the first thing I thought of. In terms of a spectrum as you're indicating, I disagree, since it's completely not addressing the 'kick' people get from fetishistic crossdressing. Could some sort of hormonal effect cause a change in brain structure, and thereby change gender identity? Yes. It is possible, but there could be other causes as well. But, the overall spectrum I disagree on, and that's what I wrote about in there. I was showing a different spectrum and how crossdressing overlaps it in different ways. What about my argument do you disagree with?

Hmm...I guess I am confused. It seemed like what you did Was a spectrum but with pictures instead of labels. I think anyone could get a kick out of crossdressing on different parts of the spectrum.

But, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are getting at which is possible because I am running off salad and spite.

P.S.

I was playing with you about 50 Cent. I just found it really funny.

[Andromeda]

A very interesting hypothesis. Just how do we go about proving it thou. I suspect that in the end we will find that the origins cross-dressing will be more complex rather than one size fits all.

[MichelleOBrien]

Pheobe, I had the same hypothesis after my high school biology mid term, frighteningly enough. But I've also done some research into other things as well.

Obviously, the testosterone wash, brain receptors, genetics, and "mommy meds" could all be to blame. But what about this:

What do we eat?

Think about it... with every piece of meat we put in our mouths, we're ingesting some hormones of the animal we're eating. Now, obviously a truly organic chicken couldn't give you the necessary spike needed for changes, but... With our milk coming from hormone-injected cows, our chickens being injected with growth and other hormones, the eggs of those chickens carrying those same hormones, and so on...

What level of hormones do we take in with our morning "balanced" breakfast of eggs, bacon, milk, pancakes, whatever? There's already studies linking hormones in milk to breast growth in male children... why couldn't it also affect us both in the womb (as mommy eats) and from birth (as we eat)?

Just some food for thought...

[Dale59]

Or, maybe pre-op transsexuals are like fish...there aren't enough female fish in their community so they change their sex.

Close. I don't think it's that there aren't enough females, it's that they aren't feminine enough. (@&^$%# sneakers and sweats)

Think about it, we all wish we could be really sexy or at least classically beautiful. So we either sex it up and don't come close to passing, or we begrudgingly tone it down to age and body type appropriate for the sake of blending in. We appreciate the beauty that is the female creature, but we don't see it nearly often enough, so we head towards the mirror.

[Rianna Humble]

maybe pre-op transsexuals are like fish...there aren't enough female fish in their community so they change their sex.Close. I don't think it's that there aren't enough females, it's that they aren't feminine enough.

I liked Shananigans' joke, but I'm sorry Dale, I don't think being TS has anything at all to do withthe appearance of other women (or men for the FtM's).

I know I didn't spend best part of half a century wrestling with Gender Dysphoria because I disliked the way other women dress.

[Shananigans]

I liked Shananigans' joke, but I'm sorry Dale, I don't think being TS has anything at all to do withthe appearance of other women (or men for the FtM's).

I know I didn't spend best part of half a century wrestling with Gender Dysphoria because I disliked the way other women dress.

Haha yes it was a joke. I'm glad you picked up on that. I actually posted it because of another thread where people were saying that they CD because their wife doesn't dress up, etc. And, I thought about animal communities and had a chuckle.

I am also glad that you are true enough to yourself to know that you aren't transgendered because there aren't enough people in skirts in the world. I've been harping on people using this excuse for days now.