Why ???? ...

[Nigella]

... Is that some (NOTE THE WORD SOME) members on here insist on dismissing the very people they are trying to emulate.

When a GG posts a contraversial thread which goes against the vein of SOME members own views, then the GG and by virtue of association, the whole GG membership, receives such a pasting that they often wonder why they bother.

I wonder if those who dismiss this section of the membership do so by virtue of the fact that they do not have an accepting relationship and then base their dismissal on the basis of "a womans place is in the home being a good little wifey".

Indeed SOME members views of the idea of femininity is based upon the outdated vision of the 50/60s and not on the modern woman.

[christinac]

Are you refering to a specific thead? Is there a specific phrase or something being used around here that you find particularly offensive?

I always try to be open minded an considerate of all people male and female and all people's point of view whether I agree with that point of view or not. I've seen too many wars (since 1987) mainly provoked by peoples and governments words to ever intentionally try to offend someone. That and my father taught us children that respect is something you have to earn and you will never earn respect by intentally offended people.

If I'm saying something in the threads that you find particularly offensive, please PM me and let me know. I may not agree with you, but I will do my damnest to advoid crossing that line again out of respect for you having the decency and respect to let me know that I'm being offensive to you.

[Nigella]

OK this thread is not aimed at an individual, but more a group.

[Babeba]

Nigella,

I feel this way too, quite often. It's not always a specific thread or anything, just a seemingly pervasive idea that (for example) GGs who do nothing to enhance their femininity aren't trying enough or authentically female enough, or that women in general in this world are trying to be too manly.

I think the thing I saw recently that made me shake my head in disbelief the most was words to the effect that the poster "wore skirts and dresses because not enough women do." Is there a quota?! Will the world implode if not enough skirts are worn all at the same time?!

Fortunately, probably over 90% of the members on this site are either kind and genuinely respectful of their fellow human beings, or rational enough in their thoughts to be able to understand convincing debates. I think the remaining few who repeatedly post ridiculously dismissive or insulting (intentionally or no) posts probably have more problems in their lives than simply the fact they cannot change their minds on those topics.

[juno]

My general opinions is that most MtF members behave more like women, but some people will let their obnoxious male side out at times. Maybe they are still struggling with accepting their female identity. Of course, women can also be mean, but men are typically less in touch with emotions. I find it easy to ignore abrasive posts by thinking "obviously, he has not yet learned to be a woman".

[gretchen2]

I think with such a large membership this kind of thing is just something that you have to expect and accept. Not everyone is going to be on the same page. Some of us just like to live in dreamland, maybe me included. If you want to be with like minded people then you have to do that in real life, not the internet.

[Pythos]

I am not sure which threads to which you are referring. I know there was one that is now closed where there was some contention, but that was to be expected with the subject of the thread. There was a term prevalent in that thread that is applied to one group of people here for doing an act that the other members can do and not get tarred with that term (yes I am trying to run the edges of actually pointing out the thread in question :P ). My main issue was the almost underlying notion that that term is an insult, and the OP did not want that term applied to them.

This is a discussion site, it is a place to get out ideas, and to work away miss assumptions.

Things that annoy me are blanket statements, and statements that sound pretty darned ignorant. I have been known to go right in on those. I also prickle at the idea of treating what we do as a disease, and when I see people actually promoting the idea of hiding it from offspring, it saddens me. Why should that continue?

We as a community have to get away from such actions as blanket statements. Not everyone here wants to be female. Not everyone here wants clothing freedom. It is a melting pot of ideas and styles.

There are times I can get rude, and I apologize for those times. But as was mentioned in another thread, we are all adults here.

Also, I have been said to be trying validate myself and my style in the past couple of thread I have made, but this is not the case. I am presenting questions, and ideas. I have little reason to validate with members here, (the outside world though? Oh yes :)). I test notions that get thrown about here. Others here do the same.

I for one love this site, and look forward to checking it out, but there are times I see some of examples of closed mindedness that in most aspects helps no one, and holds every one back.

[Frédérique]

Are you referring to a specific thread?

Just look for the angry smiley in the title, and the belated padlock…:heehee:

[Nigella]

Just to set the record straight, no there is not a specific thread, there was one that broke the camels back, but this thread is about an ongoing theme amongst SOME members who cannot, for whatever reason, accept that a GGs point of view is just as valid, if not more so, than psuydo (sp) females. The recurring theme I read, as do others as well, is that a womans place is not in the mens world, and that is transferred onto this forum at times.

This is also not restricted to a particular section of the membership, but does cross the whole TG spectrum.

[christinac]

Just look for the angry smiley in the title, and the belated padlock…:heehee:

Frédérique, I'm sure that you didn't mean any offense, but until we find out what this is all about, jokes like that aren't what we need rightnow.

[VioletJourney]

I've found that the anonymity of the internet never fails to reveal who people really are. If someone is an a-hole, then they'll be one on the internet without fail. We should just count ourselves lucky that we have such little hatred or flaming in our little community - I frequent a few other forums, and this is the first one I've been on where every other thread didn't devolve into a $*** storm.

[Babeba]

My general opinions is that most MtF members behave more like women, but some people will let their obnoxious male side out at times. Maybe they are still struggling with accepting their female identity. Of course, women can also be mean, but men are typically less in touch with emotions. I find it easy to ignore abrasive posts by thinking "obviously, he has not yet learned to be a woman".

Juno,
I'm not struggling to accept my 'female identity', and I'm pretty damn sure that in my 24 years of being GG I haven't missed that 'how to be a woman yet' lesson but I can be just as obnoxious as any of the other human beings on here! "being a woman" is about more than simply sitting in a prim and proper, polite little box and (I know you weren't trying to come off this way) but that's another one of the attitudes on here that REALLY gets me. IT DOES NOT INVALIDATE MY FEMININITY IF I'M ACTING LIKE A WHINY, PETULANT LITTLE BITCH. Please DON'T put ANY woman in boxes like that. It does no one favours.

[shesadvl]

I like to think that in all my years as a Woman 61 of them... that I treat everyone how i find them!!., whether they are decidely different or what, why do SOME of those members that get in here act like a pack in a frenzy,..say they are more like women (emulation), & treat us GG's/women as if our Opinions dont count,
I have been a member here for a short while,.. I have seen nothing but support,.. for all sections of this forum from a lot of women GG's ,
including the SO's of CD'ers who have accepting wifes/girlfriends, etc. to try and help all through what ever they go through, and understand... but its the NOT trying to understand that gets us, when its simple in black and white.

AS Nigella says:
When a GG posts a contraversial thread which goes against the vein of SOME members own views, then the GG and by virtue of association, the whole GG membership, receives such a pasting that they often wonder why they bother.

we seem to be banging our heads against a BRCK wall.

as Juno says:
My general opinions is that most MtF members behave more like women, but some people will let their obnoxious male side out at times. Maybe they are still struggling with accepting their female identity.
this i firmly believe that SOME may dress as women or in their emulation of a woman are still very male orientated in their thoughts as well....

Perhaps I would've thought that in males wanting to emulate a woman that they really need to be happy with their femine side or darn well catch up with their own femine side to really understand us women...
But in having said that, I have read in threads here time and again that the male BRAIN is not wired the same as the Female BRAIN so im unsure if they will ever understand

:battingeyelashes:

Thats my :2c: worth

[vaga505]

LAY IT ON ME SISTER! I will give it a rougeh, if it makes me beautiful or ugly, I decide. :You are all my sisters, I am happy to be here...... to find someone who questions them seleves like such ;)

[Lucy_Bella]

as Juno says:
My general opinions is that most MtF members behave more like women, but some people will let their obnoxious male side out at times. Maybe they are still struggling with accepting their female identity.
this i firmly believe that SOME may dress as women or in their emulation of a woman are still very male orientated in their thoughts as well....

Perhaps I would've thought that in males wanting to emulate a woman that they really need to be happy with their femine side or darn well catch up with their own femine side to really understand us women...
But in having said that, I have read in threads here time and again that the male BRAIN is not wired the same as the Female BRAIN so im unsure if they will ever understand



Thats my :0.2c: worth

This is the part that gets to me..Why I ask why would any one person think that just because we emulate females we should act as them 100 percent of the time? I , for one enjoy being a male and if I could shed this xdressing stuff I would .. It never goes away... I am male most of the time just as hundreds of memeber here are..Why is it such a bad thing to think with the male side ? This track always seems to go one way and one way only .. Mostly because the gate keepers are all like minded thinking ..I can not believe with the large amount of memebership this site has there isn't more male like thinking going on here..

[JulieK1980]

Just to set the record straight, no there is not a specific thread, there was one that broke the camels back, but this thread is about an ongoing theme amongst SOME members who cannot, for whatever reason, accept that a GGs point of view is just as valid, if not more so, than psuydo (sp) females. The recurring theme I read, as do others as well, is that a womans place is not in the mens world, and that is transferred onto this forum at times.

This is also not restricted to a particular section of the membership, but does cross the whole TG spectrum.

This is sadly a prevailing notion in our society as a whole. I've known many people throughout my life that still buy into the notion that women belong pregnant, barefoot, and in the kitchen so to speak. I've also found these people are the most stubborn of individuals, (I guess they'd have to be to cling to such an absurd notion.) I also think this belief transcends just crossdressers and the like, it perseveres throughout our entire society.

All I can say, is that I hope you take it with a grain of salt, and remember that we don't all think this way, and that every generation that passes; a few less people believe it.

Spelling is: Pseudo. :)

[shesadvl]

JodyC :clap: exactly thats how we as women are viewed yes most often by a select few.

Lucy-Bella:
This is the part that gets to me..Why I ask why would any one person think that just because we emulate females we should act as them 100 percent of the time?

Lucy I understand what you are saying about being happy with your male self, and dressing.. hey nothing wrong in that,... its WHEN we post our opinions, they are disregarded,..I am not dissing males there are a select few that dont try to understand, but hey its good fodder for debate between the sexes... at present.... lol

[Nigella]

Jodie

I understand that not all members think in the vein of this post hence the reason why I stress SOME. I too have noticed that as the generations progress the attitudes of the forefathers deminish, it is just a pity that some are so stuck in their ways that they can't see the wood for the trees.

Thanks for the spelling lesson :hugs:

[Kaz]

I guess CDing is a broad "thing".. it encompasses a very broad range of motivations/emotions/preferences etc.. Some are straight alpha males who want to wear a dress and se it as their right to do so. At another end of the spectrum we get into real gender dysphoria and issues around transitioning and even GRS. This may be a normal distribution with the majority in the middle.

And I guess the normal distribution also goes for GG responses to this?

I have absolutely 100% respect for GGs who have to put up with our crazy orientations (however we justify them). Some are more "accommodating" and "understanding" than others.. however, when I come across an intolerant voice expressing a dogma that I have a problem with, then I reserve the right to challenge... I will also challenge dogma on the CD side of the fence. I may choose not to, and this is usually because the thread has become "dangerous to post on". Clearly, if you look at the threads in general (and I have not done an in-depth analysis, although this would be good to do)... I would suggest that there is more disagreement across the CD community than the supporting GG community.

[Lucy_Bella]

.I am not dissing males there are a select few that dont try to understand, but hey its good fodder for debate between the sexes... at present.... lol


Shesadvl ...I whole heartly agree .. :)

[TxKimberly]

Ive seen plenty of posts saying silly things like "Why aren't women more feminine?" or "We are often more feminine than the GG's" or "Wow, you look better than a GG!". That stuff I find silly and mildly irritating, but it keeps coming up as we get newer members.
I have to say though that I don't recall a lot of threads where GG's were attacked or slammed for their posts or comments. There have been a few that I recall in the last few years, but in a forum this size, you have to expect that sooner or later someone is going to post something that irritates the majority of us. But again, as a general rule, I think that the GG's that bother to come to this forum and share their thoughts with us are respected and treated well.

[Rogina B]

I very much "second" what Kimberly just said....Reine,especially,is extremely thoughtful in her posts.I really respect what she has to say as she adds insight from the prospective of an accepting household,which some of us enjoy as well.

[TGMarla]

:yt:

I concur. I'm real glad the real girls are here. It kinda gives me hope for the world. Anyone who wants to slam on chicks for not being totally down with our decidedly wierd activity really needs to wake up and try to see it from the women's point of view. As crossdressers, we're used to us dressing up. They're not. So a word to the wise (or not so wise), when the women talk here, pay attention. You might learn a thing or two.

[sissystephanie]

If more of our newer members would read the posts of TXKimberly and TGMarla, maybe they would write less of the kind of stuff that they do. Those 2 "ladies" have probably forgotten more about GG's than many of the new members know! Hope I didn't offend anyone by saying that!! I haven't written as many posts as either one of them, but having been a CD for over 60 years I have learned a lot!

[christinac]

I've tried to follow this thread since it began, but please accept my apologies, but what the H-double set this would bleeping thing off in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Was it a thread even though it is posted it is not or what?

[Stephanie Miller]

I have read a lot of posts on here. And yes, SOME CD’s have taken unwarranted and uncalled for “cheap shots” at Gg’s in regards to not acting like a lady. (My thought: she’s got the chromosomes to prove it – so she can act any darn way she wants and she’s STILL acting like a lady!)
To be fair, I have seen SOME comments that I have felt were “below the belt” from Gg’s where they expressed that it was impossible for a CD to feel or sense a certain way since they weren’t really women. Not the actual words mind you – but the idea. (My thought: Oh really? And you can see how someone’s brain is wired?)
So I think the posts have gone both ways. And I never counted who’s ahead (which in my book means you’re really behind). I personally don't see a need for any of it.
BUT!!!!! I think I have found the reason for the CD’s doing it. ( I’ll leave it up to the Gg’s to find their possible reason.)
Two sections of the brain responsible for language were found to be larger in women than in men, indicating one reason that women typically excel in language-based subjects and in language-associated thinking. Additionally, men typically only process language in their dominant hemisphere, whereas women process language in both hemispheres
Women also have more taste buds than men, which makes them more sensitive to sweet, sour, salty and bitter flavors.
Therefore men find it easier to say something stupid and or incorrect because we aren’t as worried about the outcome. When we put our foot in our mouth we can’t taste it! :doh:

( I hope this does not come off as offensive to the Gg’s as I have the utmost respect for them and for being on here.)

[shesadvl]

:yt:

I concur. I'm real glad the real girls are here. It kinda gives me hope for the world. Anyone who wants to slam on chicks for not being totally down with our decidedly wierd activity really needs to wake up and try to see it from the women's point of view. As crossdressers, we're used to us dressing up. They're not. So a word to the wise (or not so wise), when the women talk here, pay attention. You might learn a thing or two.

well said marla,..:clap:.and thankyou....also to those that do listen and read,... and I mean read & fully understand what is/has been really said.....

I was this afternoon talking to a friend of mine re this thread...away from the forum.....
I asked her if i could post her comments here...she said yes... now I know this is mostly been said, also what i had posted earlier.....

I think this sums up what some of the GG's/or us women are trying to say.....even to what Nigella had originally posted....about our opinions etc,
this is my friends comments,....as I put both sides of all to her,.. doesnt matter if they dress or not...

"men just dont see the bigger picture do they.. sometimes it’s like talking to a brick wall when talking to them.
They think that dressing as women makes them think like a woman... my god they have a lot to learn.
Mind its been said that their brains aren’t wired like ours,
well they aren't... i think that we think for them most of the time"

now this friend of mine understands the transgender community, crossdressing & all that goes with it as well.

just thought i would share this with you all :battingeyelashes: which i think is a fair comment...

[Pythos]

I for one will say beyond a shadow of a doubt, I do not hold a candle to how a GG can look. And that is just fine. Just let me look how I want, and don't ostrisize me.

[Stephanie Miller]

shesadvl, Your friend may have something there - or not, depending on who it is.
NOT to start an argument or call someone wrong or anything else... and yes, it's just one study.. but it's food for thought.
As to the "wired brain" ... here is a very interesting study on male/female/transexual brains.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034
In summary:
In short, our findings seem to support the hypothesis that the somatostatinergic sex differences, the female number of SOM neurons in the BSTc of the male-to-female transsexual brain and the male number of SOM neurons in the BSTc of the FMT are not the result of changes of sex hormone levels in adulthood. Instead, the neuronal differences are likely to have been established earlier during development
The Female and the transexual were very close compared to the average male.
This does NOT mean everyone who thinks they are a transexual really is. Only the wiring can tell. :strugglin

[GaleWarning]

Of course, none of this rediculous arguing would happen if people would stop harping on about categories and minor differences, and would, instead, treat one another as respected and respectable members of a civil community with a common goal and a shared vision.

[Lucy_Bella]

Of course, none of this rediculous arguing would happen if people would stop harping on about categories and minor differences, and would, instead, treat one another as respected and respectable members of a civil community with a common goal and a shared vision.

Easier said than done

[msginaadoll]

Well going back to the original topic.... When something is controversial it doesnt matter who posts it in my opinion. You're going to get opinions that are all over the map. Thats what the word is all about. If such topics are posted u can only pray for some degree of common sense and respect. Emotions get involved and in my opinion emotions in both men and women often trump intelligence, common sense and good taste. we react then wish we hadnt been such idiots.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I wonder if those who dismiss this section of the membership do so by virtue of the fact that they do not have an accepting relationship and then base their dismissal on the basis of "a womans place is in the home being a good little wifey".


You have a point there, though I would also look at it another way. Some of those men who feel a woman's place is in the home being a good wife, secretly wish they could be and are angry/frustrated that they cannot be a "good 50s housewife" themselves. That is, some of those men wish they could have a traditional but role-reversed relationship where they are their wife's "good little wifey". Not only does society highly disapprove of a man in that position, and the wife would never want or approve of that, but with the astronomical increase in the cost of living since the 50s it may never be possible again.

[Nigella]

I've tried to follow this thread since it began, but please accept my apologies, but what the H-double set this would bleeping thing off in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Was it a thread even though it is posted it is not or what?

Chrisina, if you would care to read post No 9, you will find the response to your question.


I for one will say beyond a shadow of a doubt, I do not hold a candle to how a GG can look. And that is just fine. Just let me look how I want, and don't ostrisize me.

Pythos, this thread is not about who can wear what or how some one looks, it is about a GGs view being taken just as seriously as any other members. It is about people getting away from the old school view of a womans place. A modern woman has a lot more to offer, but SOME will not/cannot accept that.

[TxKimberly]

. . . So a word to the wise (or not so wise), when the women talk here, pay attention. You might learn a thing or two. . .

And if you dont want to pay attention, you should at least be respectful. When many women want little or nothing to do with us, these ladies have gone out of their way to be with us, advise us, and share their thoughts with us. That deserves respect . . .

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Crikey, if one has no respect for themselves how can they have respect for others? Sometimes a topic/reply may grate some people but somethings need to be said to allow others to see what and why things are of concern to others. If we all have a one sided view how can any discussion advance, we would all simply agree. I agree that we all should respect each other for who we are and within that mutual respect, discussion can take place with a positive attitude. I must say that it is very hard for some who are passionate about a topic to think seriously first before posting. Passion sometimes leads to silly unintentional things to happen. Unfortunately we all here are varied in the life's experiences and the way some try and convey their thoughts may not be taken the way the contributor had intended. I am learning about life and hope I will continue to learn and that can only happen through respect of those who contribute their experiences.

[Sarah Doepner]

I believe there is a tendency for some CD's to mistake looking like a "lady" with femininity. But that superficial "guy" take on things can, and does, get us into trouble in so many ways (not just with gender issues either). It may raise the hackles on your neck, but I think we don't understand our masculinity very well either. So we are left with one foot on each of two different rafts as they drift about, leaving us to look and/or act foolishly as we try to not fall in the gap between them. It's all too easy at times like that to get angry at someone with their feet firmly planted in one world who is offering advice or assistance. It isn't their fault, but we sometimes act that way as we try to divert attention away from our predicament.

I appreciate all those who ask and answer questions on this forum. We are all over the map on our sex, gender, awareness of where we are on the gender map and it shows. Oh well, it's always interesting and if I ever say anything that hurts you, let me know.

[Karan49]

Nigella,

As was mentioned above I really don't understand this thread, especially as you say it pertains to all TG's. As you suggested I re-read post No. 9, but after re-reading the post I think your thread is an over generalization. You seem to be saying this attitude is one held by the full spectrum of the transgendered, if even only by a certain minority of the whole. It would help me, at least if you could be more specific. Otherwise, I really don't follow your intent or have a way to improve my behavior.

Sincerely,

Karan

[Marissa]

And if you dont want to pay attention, you should at least be respectful. When many women want little or nothing to do with us, these ladies have gone out of their way to be with us, advise us, and share their thoughts with us. That deserves respect . . .

Okay, I'm going to have to go with Kim's response 100% on the respect part, but adding the umbrella touch that ALL should be respected. We all come here in hopes to find and provide support, answers, share experiences.

It has become something of a practice lately that One's opinion has to come across LOUD and without a budge or 'agree to disagree'.

So I would have to ask "what do you expect when even the OP starts in that manner?"

Even my own responses have changed tones lately on the more controversial thread topics (such as this one) but with an :angel: on my shoulder, I see the errors and either remove or modify the post. Some damage is done but at least its an attempt to minimize a negative impact.

[Nigella]

Nigella,

As was mentioned above I really don't understand this thread, especially as you say it pertains to all TG's. As you suggested I re-read post No. 9, but after re-reading the post I think your thread is an over generalization. You seem to be saying this attitude is one held by the full spectrum of the transgendered, if even only by a certain minority of the whole. It would help me, at least if you could be more specific. Otherwise, I really don't follow your intent or have a way to improve my behavior.

Sincerely,

Karan

I have said that SOME members of the TG community, across all spectrums, that means that SOME CDs, TSs (pre and post op) the fetish dressers, etc do not give the GGs the respect they deserve. They deride them in their responses to GG started threads and posts. The question is why do they do that?

IMHO you cannot "learn" to be a "woman" if you are not prepared to listen, at the very least, to the very people you are trying to emulate.

[AllieSF]

Maybe the tone of the responses here and in other threads like this one are based on the tone of the GG's questions and/or comments. It all depends on how the reader interprets the writer's words at that moment. You have written in a very direct style, some write in a less direct and maybe less aggressive style. I am not saying that yours is aggressive to me, but it appears that some here interpret it that way.

On topic, I think there are a lot of different things associated with being a woman and that is multiplied by where the reader may be in the overall TG spectrum. Learning to be a woman for me as a TG/CD, includes dressing skills, voice, motions, posture, listening more, etc. These are the coverings around the female being, which are of interest to me. Now if I was full time and/or TS, it would mean so much more, attitudes, thought processes, etc. All this, as has been said above, cross over between men being as men through the TG spectrum to women being women.

[Shananigans]

Haha, yes, I particularly loved a response where a member on this site blatantly said that I didn't understand something BECAUSE I WAS FEMALE. And, no matter anything that I said...research, or otherwise...my vagina was just sending bad information to my brain, causing everything to go astray, apparently.

I called my SO later on in the night and said, "So, here's an idea...sexism...on a forum about crossdressing and being feminine...lolIknowright????"

It's okay though...I work with stupid men on a day-to-day basis that think they are superior to me until they almost kill something and ask me to fix it. Can't wait until I'm working with stupid men who almost kill SOMEONE and then ask me to fix it :)

Oh, boo, I guess I'm a sexist too...nah, I'll just hide behind the title of Feminist

But, note that I love most people on this forum...however, the people that get under my skin do it very, very well.

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

It is so very unfortunate that some people are so set in their views they can never see any other view. They are the ones who suffer because they will never expand their knowledge base. It is such a shame they show no respect for others because they in return will receive no respect. Sometimes I receive an answer that contradicts my line of thought but I listen and try to understand why, then with a clear mind I start to see reason and hence I learn. I am beyond pushing my ideas onto others but I can suggest and it is up to them to accept or reject. It is just a shame that so many when they have no ability to discuss a topic attack the physical or background of another. Hasn't the attacker lost the joy in receiving the victims knowledge and creating a larger pool for their own knowledge?
A teacher teaches, the student learns the fool rejects. I am a student of life and I want to learn through mutual respect.

[Sue101]

Why do some people get irrate over other people holding a different point of view? Do thought police patrol this site? Do some member's opinions outrank others?

BTW, only some members wish to emulate women so I guess those that don't are excluded from your rant.

Stop generalizing!

[noeleena]

Hi.

Im wondering if this is more for men who iv seen in , they demand that women stay at home look after house & thier children do the meals on the dot when the man says when in other words the woman is subserviant to the man is just a sexual vexsen & has to turn it on on demand yet has to be this glamorus kitten yet be the house maid & pretty much be the bunny .tho all she needs is to be loved & heard & cuddled ,

If this infers this & . ....SOME....men think they can emulate this woman godess yet does not do any thing other than having to work, & then be a woman or try to & all dressed up to the nines then for some this is the case & some i know think they are or is a woman & will take you apart limb by limb if you say they are not, then yes there are some like this , & to a degree up or down iv seen it face to face . & they dont show thier other side to the out side world .

One comment that was made by another woman is right & not from this forum is men dont think like us who are woman , for me i did not have to learn it , it was there from birth.


Now not all men are like this just a few .

One of the reasons i saw in the 60 s was & even to day its no different men degrade women they are only there for thier pleasure & not much else so why would it not be the same as youv said now.

When i had to be around some men like this when i was starting out to work in 1963 through i hated being there because they were degrading me as a woman a young one at that tho i did not show who i was to them i had to put up with thier talk so i walked out the door so i could not hear what they were saying , i felt so embarassed & degraded. it really hurt me even then.

At the time i was about 18 /19 i could not stand being around men i hated it .i did not understand the male mindset.. i did not relate with men , & i have allways wondered why men are like this .
i was just thinking it would have been nice to have said to them then im a woman & i care not for your talking about us in this way you do.
Iv learnt its very easy for some to say things & hide behind this computer thing & not reveal the true person behind it. & so can say things that are not in a nice & meaningfull way. ,

I know im not a natal female , yet i am a true woman in my own right & what i try & say is from my heart & in a way thats helpfull.

...noeleena...

[PortiaHoney]

By putting keystroke to Internet page, I will invariably get some who agree, some who don't, other's who think I am stupid and still more who think I am wise. I will reach those who don't care as well as those who care too much.

We are each a product of our experiences. Our opinions are forged in the fires of our own personal drama's.

An opinion expressed is an important statement.

I have seen many posts and been the subject of much (from my perspective) unwarranted criticism for postings of my own. I used to bite first, but now I try to see the other persons viewpoint. I don't know the people who I communicate with. I don't know their personal circumstances. A lot of negative feedback seems to come from those who are suffering in some way.

From doing some research, I usually find that those who make the worst criticisms have their own personal reasons for doing so, and seemingly become venomous simply because they are of the opinion that I am criticising them personally.

Most of the people here have some from of drama going on in their lives - wives who don't understand, want to pass as a woman but the local letterbox would do a better job, having issues accepting their own emotions and feelings, depression, work issues, GG's who think we are ungrateful for their acceptance.

Did I upset enough people there?

We are all different - heck, most of us don't even live in the same countries. How about we stop complaining about what we do wrong here and get on with what we do right. Offer acceptance and criticism free advice to everyone. If someone is having a bad day, how about we just ignore their rants and concentrate on the good points.

[Sandra]

Why do some people get irrate over other people holding a different point of view?


The GGs here don't get irate over other peoples differing points of view...just get fed up with being told we are wrong all the time if we don't agree and go all mushy over what is said, or heaven forbid have an opinion of our own.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I called my SO later on in the night and said, "So, here's an idea...sexism...on a forum about crossdressing and being feminine...lolIknowright????"

LOL I know, right? But it is what it is, because as the following quote says:




BTW, only some members wish to emulate women

Still, some of those who say they are only in it for the clothes say they're more "girly" or "feminine" than women, which I believe is oxymoronic in regards to them also saying they don't want to be women. and it would behoove such people to perhaps learn a little big about the lives of women and feminism before saying such things.

Veronica

[KayleeDahl]

I guess CDing is a broad "thing".. it encompasses a very broad range of motivations/emotions/preferences etc.. Some are straight alpha males who want to wear a dress and se it as their right to do so. At another end of the spectrum we get into real gender dysphoria and issues around transitioning and even GRS. This may be a normal distribution with the majority in the middle.

And I guess the normal distribution also goes for GG responses to this?

I have absolutely 100% respect for GGs who have to put up with our crazy orientations (however we justify them). Some are more "accommodating" and "understanding" than others.. however, when I come across an intolerant voice expressing a dogma that I have a problem with, then I reserve the right to challenge... I will also challenge dogma on the CD side of the fence. I may choose not to, and this is usually because the thread has become "dangerous to post on". Clearly, if you look at the threads in general (and I have not done an in-depth analysis, although this would be good to do)... I would suggest that there is more disagreement across the CD community than the supporting GG community.

As i was reading this thread, i was trying to put into words my response... I think Kaz does a really good job of it.

Personally, the involvment of the GG's here is something that I so greatly appreciate. I suspect that people making the comments about some women being less than femnine come from the fetishistic side of CD, and more than anything prove that they haven't yet figured out who they are, much less who the rest of the people on this earth are (m or f).

I truely hope (and assume) that the GG's here are smart enough to see the difference between the more fetishistic forum members, and the memebers with dysphoria, who have found some degree of comfort here.

Just because I dress everday, doesn't meant that i'm wearing high heels and a skirt... probably more likely a cami and yoga pants... and the truth is (IMHO) once you get beyond the fetish CD point of view, its about being a real person, a real woman, and you are more likely to find them in the yoga pants(or jeans) and cami than high heels and a skirt.

I worry that the GG's out there are just as tired of the types of posts on here that I am tired of seeing, and the reason why I don't visit as often. I hope that they can continue to be the amazing supporters that they are, and that so many of us here appreciate.

Hugs
Kaylee

[sometimes_miss]

You have a point there, though I would also look at it another way. Some of those men who feel a woman's place is in the home being a good wife, secretly wish they could be and are angry/frustrated that they cannot be a "good 50s housewife" themselves. That is, some of those men wish they could have a traditional but role-reversed relationship where they are their wife's "good little wifey". Not only does society highly disapprove of a man in that position, and the wife would never want or approve of that, but with the astronomical increase in the cost of living since the 50s it may never be possible again.
I agree; and, I'm thinking that it's probably just easier to chalk the animosity up to frustration; most of the guys here are stuck with a desire to crossdress, and it's simply not going to disappear. Yet, very, very little of society accepts us; most people think of us as freaks and/or perverts. That takes a lot out of us; having to deal with that on a continuing basis. So I can see where some might lash out at, well, pretty much anything that upsets their self image, or their ideas of why they are who they are, and how it all relates to real females in general. For while pretty much every GG here is at the very least, tolerant to us CD'ers, I guess that any statement by one of them will bring back all the memories of every bad thing any woman has ever said about us or to us about our crossdressing. Perhaps the toughest thing to deal with is the feeling that a lot of GG's don't feel that we can't ever be allowed to have the right to dress like them, shouldn't ever want to assume a typically feminine role either socially or intimately, and a lot of women (well, my ex wife for example) try to make us feel ashamed for not being the stereotypical male that they expect us all to be; yes, maybe it's the perpetual 'stand up and just be a man, and stop fooling around with girl things', feeling we get from a lot of women that gets overwhelming sometimes. JMHO.
BTW, I don't know if I've ever come across as hostile to anyone; if I have, I apologize for that because I truly never mean to be that way. Indeed, one of the most comforting things to me about the times when I can be myself, and dress as I truly feel I should, is that I can for a brief time, be able to discard the pressure that comes with the automatic assumption that every guy MUST do everything he can to try to be the alpha, ambitious, aggressive male, no matter who gets hurt in the process.

[Shananigans]

I think people really aren't seeing what the true point of the matter is...it's not about who is emulating who or whatever...it's about telling someone that their opinion does not matter (or just disregarding someone's opinion) because of the fact that they are women.

THAT is the case and point and the real depressing issue.

Who really cares who emulates who? Just try to emulate a human being at the end of the day and not a total douche.

[victoriamwilliams1]

My general opinions is that most MtF members behave more like women, but some people will let their obnoxious male side out at times. Maybe they are still struggling with accepting their female identity. Of course, women can also be mean, but men are typically less in touch with emotions. I find it easy to ignore abrasive posts by thinking "obviously, he has not yet learned to be a woman".

I have to agree with you.


I think with such a large membership this kind of thing is just something that you have to expect and accept. Not everyone is going to be on the same page. Some of us just like to live in dreamland, maybe me included. If you want to be with like minded people then you have to do that in real life, not the internet.

I agree and I have found better growth in group sessions and group events. The internet is full of opinions of what makes a woman and what makes a man! I use the resources of the web as guidelines and not law!

[Fractured]

Could it be that some of the problems arise from what is considered feminine? Wikipedia provides a decent definition - "Femininity (also called femaleness or womanliness) is the set of female qualities attributed specifically to women and girls by a particular culture." Just as some cultures require head covering for women (making it feminine) doesn't mean that all cultures would view head coverings as feminine. Those voicing opinions that a gal isn't feminine enough may be speaking out of an outlook of what they consider feminine which they compare GGs to and say "they don't match." It is their conception of what is feminine that needs to change as well as the person's behavior (intolerance is intolerable:straightface:).

[Nigella]

I think people really aren't seeing what the true point of the matter is...it's not about who is emulating who or whatever...it's about telling someone that their opinion does not matter (or just disregarding someone's opinion) because of the fact that they are women.

THAT is the case and point and the real depressing issue.

Who really cares who emulates who? Just try to emulate a human being at the end of the day and not a total douche.

Shananigans

You hit the nail on the head with this simple post, however you are :wall: cos you is a GG :rofl:

[JulieK1980]

Shananigans

You hit the nail on the head with this simple post, however you are :wall: cos you is a GG :rofl:

Some of us can sympathize and empathize. The others should read SeanMuscles comments in the jealousy thread, and then (after getting angry) will be able to understand how it feels to be minimized and stereotyped. Of course the more stubborn ones will refuse to see the similarity.

[Lucy_Bella]

I have the up most respect for any GG who would even think about putting up with a Cder and I have made that clear many times in here.. I am not suggesting that anyone is pointing fingers in my direction either as I am reading some of these post.

So in a very polite and calm way I would like to comment about some of these post that are comming across as a borderline male bashing party. Guess what? GG's can be wrong also no one is perfect . I will admit I have seen plenty of GG's getting harp on in here and I will not defend that its wrong to bash anyone not just GG's. But, if I feel that if something a GG is suggesting is wrong I will simple reply that does not account for all from here on out .. Now what happens after that who knows? I do not wish for any GG to take it as me being offensive in anyway if I feel different than their beliefs,now if that isn't human enough Im banging my head!

[BRANDYJ]

I bet this site would be a dull boring place if it was not for our GG's. I particularly like reading their opinions and feelings about what we all do. All you have to do is be a member of the GM only section to see how little is posted there. Especially if it has to do with emotions. If we did not have our beloved GG's here, all we'd have would be the stupid threads like "what color panties are you wearing today." If threads like that were all we had, this would be a boring place to be. Ever notice our GG's don't post to threads like that? Thank God.
What really gets me mad is when I see a thread were the wife or SO of a CD is having issues over her partner's crossdressing and is either worried or hurting and someone comes along and suggests it's the GG's fault for not understanding accepting or other wise has self esteem issues! It makes me think that person is exactly the type that would create issues with his partner... if he had a wife or partner. My guess is it's those that don't have an accepting wife or girlfriend that generalize about GG's in a negative way. There are many GG's here that I admire and respect above all others. There posts are sincere, honest and from the heart. Not to mention it gives us an insight into the hearts and minds of those most of us try to emulate when it comes to more then clothes.

[Babeba]

I bet this site would be a dull boring place if it was not for our GG's. I particularly like reading their opinions and feelings about what we all do. All you have to do is be a member of the GM only section to see how little is posted there. Especially if it has to do with emotions. If we did not have our beloved GG's here, all we'd have would be the stupid threads like "what color panties are you wearing today." If threads like that were all we had, this would be a boring place to be. Ever notice our GG's don't post to threads like that? Thank God.

:-) I've never felt the urge to look into the panties thread... but then, I feel that's fair. I don't have to look, and it doesn't harm me any to have people sharing that information with each other!

Perhaps one of the biggest differences between the GGs who post on here and the CDers, TGs and TSs of all shapes and sizes is who we're here for - the CDers etc. are here for themselves, first and foremost whereas the GGs end up here because of other people (even those GGs who come out of curiosity/looking to meet a CDer do it for the sake of a future relationship or at least knowledge of something outside their experiences). That sphere of "wanting to know more about this thing that X person I care about does," is very tinted with our emotional connection to that person who 'introduced us' to this CDing world. Strong love, strong shock, strong horror, strong curiosity, strong desire - being here means we explore our emotions. For many of the various transfolk here, this site (and others like it) are a place to finally 'be normal' and hopefully not judged for who they are; so, I can see the tendency to talk about mundane sorts of things when the chance occurs. Also, with the GM forum? Everyone in on that side of the fence is pretty much right here, so unless there's something you don't want your SO (for example) to see why not put it here?



What really gets me mad is when I see a thread were the wife or SO of a CD is having issues over her partner's crossdressing and is either worried or hurting and someone comes along and suggests it's the GG's fault for not understanding accepting or other wise has self esteem issues!

I TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THIS. I remember seeing a GG who had been struggling with her relationship for years since her TS husband came out to her, then moved at lightning speed towards life 24/7 without totally being clear where she was headed... sticking with her husband meant the GG lost a lot of family and friends, put the two of them at considerable financial strain, and drained her emotionally - this GG felt like she had nothing left over to deal with her own problems, health and otherwise. At probably the most stressful part of everything (for the GG at least), her husband called it quits; she didn't want to be married to her wife anymore. The GG in question - who had completely changed her whole life, and struggled to accept her partner for who SHE was in the face of everyone else in her world - poured her heart out on one of the boards here... only to be told by one of the TS women here words to the effect, "It's a shame you could not have been more accepting of this all, your SO deserved better." It honestly made me cry, that a woman with no knowledge of how this other woman had suffered through the last few years of her life could judge her so quickly and so incorrectly.



Who really cares who emulates who? Just try to emulate a human being at the end of the day and not a total douche.

Yup. This really sums up EVERYTHING IN LIFE. QFT.

[Rianna Humble]

I have the up most respect for any GG who would even think about putting up with a Cder
...
Guess what? GG's can be wrong also no one is perfect . I will admit I have seen plenty of GG's getting harp on in here and I will not defend that its wrong to bash anyone not just GG's. But, if I feel that if something a GG is suggesting is wrong I will simple reply that does not account for all from here on out

Hi Lucy, unless I am very much mistaken, it was never the OP's intention to say that women can never be wrong, but there are ways to disagree without putting the other person down as being without value. I believe that you usually disagree respectfully which adds weight to your arguments.

IMNSHO the vast majority of posters on these forums are able to disagree in a civilised manner, but there is a vocal minority who seem to want to put down the very people that they apparently try to emulate. Many of this minority seem to be stuck in a rut of what cis-men described as femininity more than half a century ago, as if people cannot evolve.

I often wonder why people in that minority want to emulate something that they appear to despise.

[Pythos]

In my opinion I think it is just the fact there are these notions of what is male, and what is female. They are social constructs, and the separation of them is really not fully biolical. If one does their research it will be seen that many "feminine" traits and "masculine" traits are means to form and then maintain a hierchy which in many ways favors one sex....I'll leave it to the reader to figure out which.

[Shananigans]

In my opinion I think it is just the fact there are these notions of what is male, and what is female. They are social constructs, and the separation of them is really not fully biolical. If one does their research it will be seen that many "feminine" traits and "masculine" traits are means to form and then maintain a hierchy which in many ways favors one sex....I'll leave it to the reader to figure out which.

Well, a lot of the CDs on this site are stuck on femininity being about clothes and makeup. And, by that argument, of course this is not biological, animals do not wear clothes. Perhaps, did you mean historical, instead? Because, there are of course very strong biological examples of what is male and female...mostly being that most living organisms (aside from humans) have the main focus of passing on their genetic material. And, they will pass it on by whatever means possible. There are examples of insects impersonating females in order for males in the area to try to mate with them (unsuccessfully) and waste their male mojo on them, so that the impersonating male can go mate with the real female. Everything is about fitness (their reproductive success). There are also examples of animals expressing overly masculine or overly feminine traits (again nothing to do with their clothes) in order to get more mates. For example, the female chooses the male expressing the MOST masculine traits because this probably means that he got so big because he was good genetic material. In other words, he was able to defend himself and get plenty of food for himself...so any offspring by him may inherit these "thrifty" traits. Maybe it also means that he will offer more protection to her offspring. So, this is why she chooses him over the scraggly little thing next to him. These are very simplified examples and if you are really interested in this, I have a few papers that I studied as an undergrad that I can dig up and point you to. But, yes, I think male and female....masculine vs. feminine...is fairly important on a BIOLOGICAL basis.

[Lucy_Bella]

Shananigans,

That is very interesting I have also read some on these Traits and seen simular on T.V. shows.. One thing that gets me, thinking with an open mind as you know many Cders are married ,some are gay and others consider themselves Bi. Me I know after questioning myself for sure I am not attracted to men in any way. So the question is, if one is not attracted to the same sex how would they know what attraction to the same sex would be.. In others words, cause I know that didn't make sense what I just wrote. I know in a female what I am attracted to or the type and in my own way emulate that .. With no desires to be a woman or live as one and by saying that, going all the way.

There is nothing in modern human nature that would have a male act this way to beniefit the society or man ./woman kind ..Now going back hundreds of years ago there were benefits .. I think our society has out grown the need for those who are true transgender .. But is it evolution that created transgenders in male and females when there was uses for them? Has our society evolved past that in most of the world to fast?

[Shananigans]

Shananigans,

That is very interesting I have also read some on these Traits and seen simular on T.V. shows.. One thing that gets me, thinking with an open mind as you know many Cders are married ,some are gay and others consider themselves Bi. Me I know after questioning myself for sure I am not attracted to men in any way. So the question is, if one is not attracted to the same sex how would they know what attraction to the same sex would be.. In others words, cause I know that didn't make sense what I just wrote. I know in a female what I am attracted to or the type and in my own way emulate that .. With no desires to be a woman or live as one and by saying that, going all the way.

There is nothing in modern human nature that would have a male act this way to beniefit the society or man ./woman kind ..Now going back hundreds of years ago there were benefits .. I think our society has out grown the need for those who are true transgender .. But is it evolution that created transgenders in male and females when there was uses for them? Has our society evolved past that in most of the world to fast?

This might make a good thread on its own. Note that I am not an evolutionary biologist. I do have a biology degree that was strongly concentrated in evolution, but then I ran off to study bacteria and parasites...and, now anesthesia....I'm ADHD with my studies...

Evolution gets a little hairy when it comes to people. I'm not saying that we aren't subjected to it, but I'm just saying that we don't act like most other mammals. But, let's say for hypothesis sake that even though we act different than most animals that evolution still acts on us in the same way. Evolution by sexual selection (the type of evolution that I was describing in my earlier post) would say that transgenderedism (did I make up this word lol?) would be evolutionarily favorable (assuming that there is a genetic component) if it helped the human gains mates and successfully produce offsprings with those mates.

This automatically opens up a can of worms. By just being on this forum, it seems that this is not the case and that women do not select for men that are act or present as more feminine. Therefore, I might venture that in our hypothetical experiment that transgenderedism would eventually be weeded out of the gene pool.

In animals, very small genetic changes may develop and they continue developing until evolution plays its cruel card. So, in the example that you hypothesized that there was once a need for TG people and now they may be being "weeded out of the gene pool" due to sexual selection is a pretty hard statement to make. I think the best way to test it would be to have hard data as to the number of TG people 5000 years ago as opposed to now. Then, see if there are any TGs around 5000 years from now. (5000 is an arbitrary number...I'm just saying that evolution is a slow process). However, we can't do this A) because most people do not openly share that they are TG and B) what are we going to call TG...fetishist to TS? If you don't have a hard definition it would be hard to test. And, as we know there ARE so many TGs of varying degrees. So, I'd say we failed to demonstrate our hypothesis (that the "TG gene" is an unfavorable one being weeded out of the gene pool).

Of course, this is all bologna (my situation that I proposed and not evolution) because A) We don't even know if TG is a genetic component or not and B) Humans tend to not act like just blobs of flesh attached to genitals with the soul purpose of copulation.

...well, for the most part anyway...haha

As far as choosing attractive mates, it makes sense that you are attracted to women that you would most want to emulate. This really has nothing to do with evolution because it means you are TG. You have an ideal woman that you strive to emulate and therefore find yourself attracted to these women.

As to your observations on homosexuality...haha...that IS seen in animals and there ARE evolutionary components that select for homosexuality. Here is a more simple explanation of it, but again I have papers. The papers are more dry and boring....this article is more snappy and to the point and gives you the glossed over jist of it all. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13674-evolution-myths-natural-selection-cannot-explain-homosexuality.html

Now, if this pertains to people or not...who knows? Humans are obviously still subject to evolution...we are a strange species in our actions, but that doesn't mean that we are immune to it. We'll see where we are in 5000 years...if we don't blow ourselves up first :)

The closest I can come to (fail) explain crossdressing on an evolutionary standpoint is the "sneaky male" theory that I described earlier. And, with transsexualism...the closest thing that I can throw at it as an example would be animals that could switch their sex when one gender outnumbers the other. For example, a female fish switches to a male when there are no males in the area (or vice versa). However, in order for this to stand with people, you'd have to see if there happens to be more transsexuals in areas without a regular gender distribution lol and we KNOW this is not the case. So, really, as it is right now there is no evolutionary explanation for transsexualism and crossdressing. It could be that it is neither a favorable or disfavorable trait evolutionarily. Or, perhaps it is either favorable or disfavorable and we'll figure out which in quite a few years.

However, what I was telling Pythos was that masculine and feminine trait selection IS biological, and YES we even select for these traits as humans. Studies have shown that women rank men as more appealing when they look more masculine and men rank women as more appealing when they look more feminine. Note that this has nothing to do with hair or makeup. In the studies the hair was not shown and the subjects wore no makeup. It was purely on bone structure and physical characteristics that displayed a level of femininity and masculinity.

Furthermore, we select for masculine and feminine traits without even seeing each other. We do it by smell. In my animal behavior class, we conducted an experiment where everyone wore a t-shirt for 3 days. Prior to wearing the shirt, we bathed with unscented soap. We wore no perfumes or deodrants at this time. We kept the shirt on 24/7 for three days and were only allowed to wash in water without soap. (No shampoo). At the end of the study, we placed our shirts in a Ziploc bag. Everyone was given the same size shirt and the same bag so you could no identify them. Next, the professor (who was also blind to whose shirts were whose) passed the bags around and we would sniff into the bag and rate how attracted we were to the scent on a scale of 1-10. I was interested to see where I would fall because I am bisexual. Most men chose the woman who was ovulating (yes, we had to share our menstrual cycle in the data) as the most attractive shirt. (And, females are most fertile during ovulation). Even the gay guy chose her which was lol. The shirt that was least attractive to male belonged to a girl who was on her period during the process (the least fertile). Women were predominantly attracted to the shirt that belonged to the big beefcake in the class. Physically he was just big and buff...probably full of testosterone. Coincidence?

Now, physically and psychologically I was not attracted the guy that my nose said was most attractive. Just knowing how he acts turns me off of him...but, on a blind study, my body betrayed me and biology took over. Interesting, huh? Biologically he might be the most attractive, but just by knowing him....nah...

And, on a side note, GGs posts on this thread are getting some attention...I haven't been told that my vagina lowers my IQ yet. So, maybe the OP had an impact on helping everyone to be more mindful that we are all just people here...and we all have feelings at the end of the day. Even evil reptilian feminists :)

[Lucy_Bella]

Shanaigans ,
Thanks for the reply, and yes, perhaps another thread would be wise on the evalution subject. I thought you brought up some valids points ..

Thanks

[ReineD]

I think a major issue is that SOME PEOPLE DON'T READ! :p

I've seen threads where false statements are made, such as oh, I dunno ... "my wife is jealous and she feels less feminine than me because I'm hotter than she is". Others, (including the GGs who have experience with this very situation), will post explaining why this isn't true and offer convincing arguments, and then other members come right in and echo the original false assumption!

It almost seems as if many people here read the original post, don't bother to read the development of the thread, and then just post their opinions regardless! But it can seem dismissive to the people who have taken the time to offer well constructed arguments expressing another aspect of the situation, which BTW is generally done in order to bridge the gap between a warring CD and his SO!

So ... WTF? Maybe some members are just here to spout off and they're not interested in any meaningful discussion, which kinda departs from the whole idea of having a support forum.

[JulieK1980]

So ... WTF? Maybe some members are just here to spout off and they're not interested in any meaningful discussion, which kinda departs from the whole idea of having a support forum.

I think they call this, "foot in mouth disease."
It's painfully prevalent all over the internet sadly, and really makes you question humanity.

[Shananigans]

So ... WTF? Maybe some members are just here to spout off and they're not interested in any meaningful discussion, which kinda departs from the whole idea of having a support forum.

I think that just describes how people act in general though. I don't know how many times in class I have gotten mad at people who just wake up 5 minutes before they are asked to speak on the subject material and then say something that someone else said 2 seconds ago. But, they were off in their own world, thinking about what They were going to say instead of listening to the others.

However, a few replies to posts have me wondering if the poster has read beyond the subject line.

Also, I get too annoyed with the "my wife is jealous of me threads" that I just can't comment on them anymore. I tried a long time ago to relate/explain, but to no amount. In the end I'm just like, "Yep, uh huh, sure, you're so hot, you're so fine...we're all just so darned jealous. I'm just not worthy" :rolleyes:

And, I thought that the girls that I went to high school with were b*tches....lol

[TxKimberly]

. . . It almost seems as if many people here read the original post, don't bother to read the development of the thread, and then just post their opinions regardless! . . .

OUCH! Guilty as charged as I have done that on multiple occasions. Sometimes I just get fascinated or worked up by the OP and directly to posting a comment without reading the following replies, and I would have to admit that only rarely am I willing to read an entire five or six pages of comments and replies before spouting off . . . :(

[ReineD]

Yeah, but Kim, I was referring to the posters who perpetuate false beliefs about GGs. They don't bother to read the developed arguments about why the original post just doesn't make sense.

But, there are people like you who get it, so you don't need convincing that your wife isn't CDing when she wears pants, or that she feels her femininity is threatened because you are just so hot! (Not saying you aren't hot cos you are, but you know what I mean). :)

[Sandra]

I
So ... WTF? Maybe some members are just here to spout off and they're not interested in any meaningful discussion,

I agree and some only want everyone else to agree and if a GG does then nothing is said, but god help us if we disagree. I am just sorry that a lot of the GGs won't post in the main forum because of this.

[ReineD]

Sandra, I remember a few years ago, reading a post from a CDer who was quite resentful that a GG might come in here to burst his bubble with a dose of reality, since this place (he felt) was his only outlet for fantasy about being femme. Although I agree this forum is a great outlet for closeted CDers, honestly they don't get that many spouses lurk here as well if they're trying to come to terms with their husbands' CDing. And how does a wife feel, reading all this nonsense about what she thinks and who she is.

Anyway, I don't think it's healthy for anyone to justify their CDing by making themselves so superior to GGs (or even other men for that matter, when you consider all the male bashing that happens here too). It's rather counter-productive and it doesn't help these CDers to move forward with being open and real about themselves. It keeps them stuck in a fantasy land, and I can't help but think this must have a negative impact on their relationships.

[t-girlxsophie]

I have to agree with the latter postings the GGs on here must feel like :facepalm: when they read posts from the sort of self absorbed CDers that think they are tranny Goddesses and above anything on the planet,If I ever get that up myself (no chance of that) my missus has permission to boot me where it hurts :heehee:

Sophie

[Sarah...]

Why ???? ...

Generalisations. Judgements. Labelling.

In my view, these things render all reasoned debate stone dead. Which is sad really and, ultimately, rather boring. They get in the way of living.

Sarah

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Also, I get too annoyed with the "my wife is jealous of me threads" that I just can't comment on them anymore. I tried a long time ago to relate/explain, but to no amount. In the end I'm just like, "Yep, uh huh, sure, you're so hot, you're so fine...we're all just so darned jealous. I'm just not worthy" :rolleyes:

And, I thought that the girls that I went to high school with were b*tches....lol

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Best post all day. Though I would imagine that the biyatches here haven't read "Queen Bee's and Wannabe's" and that when they watch "Mean Girls" they identify with the Regina George character. And yes, when I was young, there were times I DID want to be the Queen Bee, sorry about that.

Veronica

[TxKimberly]

Yeah, but Kim, I was referring to the posters who perpetuate false beliefs about GGs. They don't bother to read the developed arguments about why the original post just doesn't make sense.

But, there are people like you who get it, so you don't need convincing that your wife isn't CDing when she wears pants, or that she feels her femininity is threatened because you are just so hot! (Not saying you aren't hot cos you are, but you know what I mean). :)


You know, I'm tempted to take your rationalization and run with it. After all, I've met you - I know that your smart and I know that your pretty, and like any reasonably normal guy, I'd like to stay on your good side and in your good graces, but still . . .
If I only read the posts of those that I like, admire, and agree with (like yourself) then I am doing myself and others a disservice. If your point is valid (and it is) then I owe it to those that I dont agree with to at least read and consider their posts.
Most of us on this forum come from reasonably free countries where we are allowed to express our opinions without worrying about going to prison or worse. Dont get me wrong, I'm all for calling out someone on their posts, and arguing with them and trying to convince them of the error of their ways, but if all we do is slam and ridicule people with an opinion different from our own, we run the risk of becoming like those that we least admire - the dictatorships.
Let's consider Sean's opinion. Let's tell him why and how he is mistaken and try and show him why we are right and he is wrong, but let's not simply insult and belittle him for his beliefs.
Reine - you rock. I have yet to read a single post or thread from you that I didn't like.
Sean - you rock. You had the courage to stand up for your point of view,and to do it against overwhelming opposition.
What the hell - let's admire whats worth admiring.
Enough philosophy from a tired old desert rat - I'm outta here!

[Tanya C]

I think it's a travesty that the GGs on this forum frequently take the heat for the lack of acceptance that some cders experience in their own relationships. I fully inderstand that some cders basically live in a war zone because their SOs won't tolerate crossdressing, and it's only human nature to get angry about being denied your female gender expression, but they should be standing up to their wives rather than taking shots at the GGs here.
Actually, I think some of the GGs on this forum are a lot more accepting and supportive of cding than are some cders.

[Lucy_Bella]

I agree and some only want everyone else to agree and if a GG does then nothing is said, but god help us if we disagree. I am just sorry that a lot of the GGs won't post in the main forum because of this.

I welcome any and all GGs comments , n fact I starve for it so I can learn...I am guilty for hanging around loved ones to get GG input for the real tg issues AND I would be a fool not to welcome any advice ..Maybe I come across to strong because I am ready to leap on any GG input .. Thats serious stuff and I am ready to learn what makes it click !! How or why do you even bother with us I wanna learn ..

[ReineD]

Most of us on this forum come from reasonably free countries where we are allowed to express our opinions without worrying about going to prison or worse. Dont get me wrong, I'm all for calling out someone on their posts, and arguing with them and trying to convince them of the error of their ways, but if all we do is slam and ridicule people with an opinion different from our own, we run the risk of becoming like those that we least admire - the dictatorships.

Absolutely! In principle, this is the nature of forums, where members discuss issues rationally and all are open-minded enough to be willing to believe how others feel about certain things.

However, I'd say that one of the largest topics in this forum (other than the how-tos of CDing or trying to figure out why the CDer dresses), has to do with relationships, namely, the inability of various people to accept the crossdressing (whether it is society at large or a spouse), how the CDers feel about this and how they should deal with it.

I don't believe a GG has much say in why the CDer dresses, what he feels when he dresses, and how he deals with the matter of non-acceptance. It is when the CDers put words in the GG's mouthes and say why the GGs are non-supportive that the GGs begin to have issues and may debate ferociously. No one likes to be told who they are or how they feel.

The most controversial topics beween CDers and GGs deal not with the CDers motives, but with the GG's attitudes! It is just plain wrong for the CDers to assume certain truths that the GGs repeatedly say are untrue about themselves: the idea that a GG CDs when she wears pants, or that a GG's fundamental femininity is threatened when her partner CDs, or that her basic reason for non-acceptance deals with feelings of jealousy over how *hot* her partner looks when dressed, or that she is being irrational when she can't wrap her mind around the CDing.

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinions about general topics and they need to be given latitude for expressing them, but no one has the right to paint others with a broad brush and *tell* them how they (the others) feel and what their motives are.

CDers do not like being told they are gay, or they CD because they had a dysfunctional childhood, or they all are women and eventually will all want to transition, or that the CDing can be cured if only the CDer is willing to be cured. None of this is debatable. Conversely, GGs don't like to be told the things I mention above and the GGs have every right to defend their positions by telling the CDers who say these things that they are wrong. In an ideal world, a GG's defense would be free of slamming or ridicule. But this is a highly charged topic and when GGs repeatedly, thread after thread, page after page, are told who they are, frankly I don't blame them for eventually feeling frustrated or angry, and having these feelings shine through their words.

Thanks for bringing this up, Kim! :hugs:

[Shananigans]

:raisedeyebrow:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Best post all day. Though I would imagine that the biyatches here haven't read "Queen Bee's and Wannabe's" and that when they watch "Mean Girls" they identify with the Regina George character. And yes, when I was young, there were times I DID want to be the Queen Bee, sorry about that.

Veronica

Just because you are beautiful doesn't mean you have to act like a stuck up b*tch. When people hear I am in a sorority, they automatically stereotype me as full of myself. The girls in high school that acted like the girls in that movie Mean Girls I hung out with for like 2 years...and, then I grew up and decided I didn't want to be associated with stupid people like that.

I have heard a few members on here tell me that they aspire to be like that (Regina George) or feel like they are like her and I am just like :raisedeyebrow:

Those girls don't exist past high school because in college and in the real world, you learn that no one gives a sh*t about how cool you think you are.