Extreme Femininity

[msginaadoll]

Reading various posts it is easy to see many posts about cds love for dressing and emulating women. However reading posts from many of the GGs from this forum it is interesting to see a often different viewpoint. Sometimes I wonder if many of us are not falling into the cult of extreme feminism. I mean how many time do u read about someone not feeling right if they dont wear a skirt or dress or if they are not completely made up.
On the other hand I have never read a post from a GG stating you know I dont feel at all like a woman unless I wear a micro miniskirt and 7 inch heels. That may seen like a silly point and it probably is.... But Im wondering if sometimes since as a cd we can never be truly female, that at times we go to the far extreme. We want to take a almost characture of what a women is and then impose it on ourselves. The problem is
then if we try to impose our view of this on the rest of the world and women in general. Then all of a sudden u see, why dont women wear skirts or dresses or take pride in their appearance, or....... Because the focus of crossdressing is on our clothes we transmit that to the focus of being a woman is clothes. I think most would agree that a fairly big leap
Im sure some will disagree with my comments and that is personally ok.... Even the comment that the focus of crossdressing is on clothes may be silly... however how many naked crossdressers do u see? Well I look forward to the comments, this forum has always given me plenty to ponder on. Gina

[SarahMarie42]

I think some of us cross dressers fall victim to fallacious ideas regarding the definition of femininity, but I personally enjoy presenting myself in a subtly feminine way as much as I enjoy presenting myself in a more flamboyant, traditionally glamorous, hyper-feminine way

[Loni]

I do not know how I should feel at any time, but I am more confortable relaxing in a skirt than jeans.

[VioletJourney]

I'm a newcomer to this world but isn't that what's called the "pink fog"? From what I understand us CDers will occasionally fall victim to the pink fog but it gradually fades away and we express ourselves more subtly.

Plus in my opinion, being a woman and femininity are completely different things; for example, Lzzy Hale of the band Halestorm (or perhaps Joan Jett) has a stage presence that's very aggressive and rock n' roll, traditionally masculine traits, but still easily expresses herself as a woman.

[Kathryn Philips]

For me dressing is about seeing myself as woman and distancing myself from as much as possible from my male appearance but without going extreme. I have 2 dressing modes.

1) Full make-up only, for looking at myself in mirror (wig, foundation, eyeshadow, eyeliner, red lipstick, feminine looking glasses and pearl earrings).
2) Fully dressed (the above+ knen -length skirt, bra, tights, 4" heels).

My opportunities to dress are scarce and have to make most of them, if I cannot look like a woman, I don't bother. I also never underdress, it does nothing for me (I even wear mens briefs under my skirts).

[SarahMarie42]

Well Violet, most people don't know that Mel Torme was himself a cross dresser, and when he was in his feminine persona, he referred to himself as "The Pink Fog". At least that's MY theory as to what "pink fog" means.

[noeleena]

Hi.

As by now you all know im not a dresser nore will be,nore T S, & yes i go with what youv said as iv met 100 s of .

& yes most would out dress me any time most would make me look well what the..... are you . the way in which they dress make up & shoes , tho for me what i do see as youv said the way they act as tho they are woman & for me some way over do it . i cant act being a woman my dress is simple hardly any make up if any most of the time . so my standing with in the dressers would be what am i doing here , (( i dont mean on our forum , places iv been ))

& yes i do feel out of place this is my comflict being around men im being up front with this . im a lot better than i was .

My women friends in our groups do dress lovely & have some so so nice clothes i dont even try because i know theyll out class me every time so for me it has to be just simple in design & comfortable ,
in day to day wear i do have nice clothes & do dress up & do get comments of that suits you & its nice ,

im not being what im not , yet i do see what your saying now the ? i would put out is how would those get on in my world how would they be seen, accepted yes , just some thinking would be whats the game they are playing at .now some of my fiends do know & have seen pics i took over in Oz e so for them its no bigge ,

If some were to come with me & meet my friends could they stand the test of,.... are you really a woman ,...... for many voice is a good point to start with, i talk with 100 s of people been in front of ...... okay youv got the point... im out there, thats the difference.
Now thats not to say some would not be able to do what i cant do , theyed PASS where as i dont. tho im a woman.
As iv said before yous would out class me in dress & what wev talked about .

Clothes do not have much bearing on who i am im still a woman no matter how im dressed or not. , so what makes a real woman , being one.
For me growing to be one.

The last part is a ...tell all .....thats where the difference is for me as a woman.

...noeleena...

[prene]

i feel the most feminine when I tightlace, tuck well and wear attachable forms.
When U tightlace my walk changes, and when I wear attachable forms I can wear a light support bra so I feel my breasts pulling and moving with my body.
THerefore,
When I a wearing them I feel extremely feminine.

[KrystalA]

I enjoy wearing feminine clothing. Period. Alsways with satin undies. And I wear skirts of knee-length to micro-mini...and capri pants, slacks, jeans, whatever, with nice blouses. Pretty much anything, mild to a bit wild. It depends on my mood, but almost anything designed to cover the female body makes me feel feminine. I suppose it varies with every one of us as much as everything else varies with each of us. My basic principle as far as CDing goes, is if it feels good, wear it.

[Cynthia Anne]

I think a lot of cross dressers will spend a couple of hours getting ready just to go to the grocery store! Where a woman just throws something on! After all she's just going to get groceries in her busy day! For this I commend her! Whereas we want to overdue it to look our best in public, to be impressive for different reasons! Extreme! I think so! This only applies to some! Just a thought!

[Tina B.]

It's called crossdressing for a reason, it's all about the clothes, or you are a TS, then it's not about the clothes. I am not a woman, I am a crossdresser, without the clothes, as our English friends would say, I'm just a bloke.
Tina B

[Cheryl T]

Everyone has a different reason for doing this. Some must wear the most feminine things to feel like a woman. Myself, I am just as comfortable and "feminine" is a pair of jeans or sweats as I am in a skirt or dress. It's not about the hair or the makeup or the outfit for me, it's about expressing my feminine side. Baggy men's jeans and workboots just don't work for me, but then I'm not always in heels and hose either.
I just enjoy the better fitting clothing and style choices that help me express the woman inside.

[PretzelGirl]

Nice thoughts Gina. I am sitting here pondering this and I think the general thought process applies to many things in life. How many times have we seen someone be really into something and then they make a statement to the effect of "how can you not enjoy doing it the way I am, it is wonderful". It is a manifestation of our perceptions. We think something should be a certain way and it clouds our mind to where we can't understand how others don't feel the same because our enjoyment level is so high.

Separately, I think the effect can be heightened for someone who is new to doing that "thing". Let's look at it from the CD perspective. How many times have we seen someone new to dressing come here and want to go to the extreme. Then you can look at the experienced CD and they may not be so excitable and some of it has an "old hat" feel to it. The learning has happened so a level of the excitement is gone.

[Sophie_C]

One thing I would say is to be careful in using the words 'femininity' versus 'feminism' - totally different things. But, other than that, you're right. If you're about emulating women, you should be listening, not telling them on what being a woman is. And, I'm not saying "listening more". You have no place in telling a woman what a woman means. Now, some women may have different places they find themselves more comfortable in (being more feminine or more androgynous) so you can take that into account, but they're still women and know it, nonetheless...

[Frédérique]

Reading various posts it is easy to see many posts about cds love for dressing and emulating women. However reading posts from many of the GGs from this forum it is interesting to see a often different viewpoint. Sometimes I wonder if many of us are not falling into the cult of extreme feminism. I mean how many time do u read about someone not feeling right if they dont wear a skirt or dress or if they are not completely made up.

I think you mean extreme femininity – extreme feminism is a completely different thing…:straightface:

I’ve encountered the entire spectrum of viewpoints from all the GG’s I’ve known, or have come in contact with, over the course of many years. I wouldn’t generalize about the GG’s on this forum, since they also represent this same range of opinions and “takes” on any given issue. Years ago I was surprised to meet a couple of women who declared that they didn’t feel right unless they were properly dressed (according to their own standards), and, at least in public, lipstick and makeup was mandatory (for them). I don’t really expect to encounter extremely feminine GG’s here, on this site, since we are, by and large, co-existing in a community made up of alternative mindsets, presentations, and sexualities. I also don’t subscribe to the belief that an implied dearth of visible femininity creates a vacuum that the MtF crossdresser seeks to redress (pun intended), but that doesn’t stop everyone from trying to make this spurious connection. It doesn’t really mean anything – it’s just a pleasurable thing to do (in my case), so I do it. GG’s can wear what they want to wear – here, now (in 2011), it’s a bit ridiculous to expect women to adopt an overtly feminine presentation…


On the other hand I have never read a post from a GG stating you know I dont feel at all like a woman unless I wear a micro miniskirt and 7 inch heels. That may seen like a silly point and it probably is.... But Im wondering if sometimes since as a cd we can never be truly female, that at times we go to the far extreme. We want to take a almost caricature of what a women is and then impose it on ourselves.

Caricature is a strong word, because it involves (or implies) exaggeration, the key factor of drag. When does an exaggerated presentation cross the line and cease to be passable crossdressing? I base my “look” on what I’ve seen in real life, or in the media, and there are instances when this inspirational vision pulls me along – there are certain things you can’t wear in public, so you learn to exercise restraint, purely for the sake of pass-ability. To be honest, I have no idea what “truly female” means – I don’t think there is such a thing, in a definitive sense, meaning something that everyone can agree on. Since dressing is a personal choice, fueled by desire and nourished by intensely private achievements, I would be saddened if my transformative metamorphosis is seen as some kind of caricature by others. Feeling like a woman is an abstract concept, but looking like a woman is somewhat attainable, under the right circumstances…
:straightface:

[msniki48]

Extreme femininity! that is a good way to put it. When a woman is dressed to the nines, i'm sure she feels special...she doesn't do that all the time though.

in the 11 plus years that i have attended support groups, you can almost always tell the difference between the girls

Many Cd'ers dont get to do it that often either, so their idea of femme is dressing to the nines...taking advantage of the limited time they have to be femme.

TG's or Cd'ers that get to dress often..like around the house etc...because they are lucky enough to have an SO that supports them, seem to tame down from the Nine's to casual girl next door dressing

Some girls go into transition, and since they a girl 24 / 7 they don't rely on the clothes to bring them to that frame of mind. i usually find these girls in cotton tops and casual slacks or jeans.

You may be right about taking it to the extreme, but somehow i think it has a lot to due with how much time we can actually devote to our femme side.

This is just my humble opinion from the girls i have known over the past 11 years

[seanmuscle]

CDs are necessary for women to become feminine again. Feminism is evil. CDs set the standard and become competition for women. Women now have to worry about CDs stealing their men.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

CDs are necessary for women to become feminine again. Feminism is evil. CDs set the standard and become competition for women.

Watches for the virtual ass-kicking you're going to get from the SO/partner's in this forum and some of the transfolk as well.

There are plenty of "feminine" women out there, and these days, they are more likely to wear feminine things because they want to, not because they feel they have to. The choice is up to them. And it's a good thing that women have more choices...and said choices were brought to them thanks to feminism, and feminism is a good thing. You did know that there are transfolk here who identify as feminists, yes? I also wasn't aware that there was any competition at all?


Women now have to worry about CDs stealing their men.

Oh please. Considering how few passable CD's there are...that's not likely. Not even taking into account that most CD's aren't attracted to men, and most men aren't attracted to CD's.

Veronica

[Sarah Doepner]

Darn right I focus on the clothing. I've mentioned it elsewhere on a number of occasions that I really don't know what "Femininity" really is. All I have are my impressions of it, the discussions I've read (from both sides of the gender spectrum) and the images that flood our world. I do know there is a big, thick wall between me and understanding femininity. It's possible it's a wall built out of my male personality. If I strip as much of that away as I can, maybe I can get through. If I do the best I can to hide behind what may be a caricature of a woman, the big thick wall begins to appear as a veil that maybe I can peer through. I'm probably fooling myself, but I do enjoy the exercise.

Heaven forbid that I ever get through and actually discover what femininity consists of. That might just spoil the whole endeavor.

[Julogden]

I can only speak for me. I have to use a lot of makeup in order to disguise a masculine visage, but I try to use makeup in a manner so that it doesn't look like a lot of makeup. I only wear full makeup if I'm going to be around other people, don't want to put anyone off their feed. Or if I'm taking photos of myself too. Around home by myself, some lipstick usually suffices.

I don't dress for sexual thrills, I dress to reflect who I am inside, and I try to dress nicely and appropriately for my age in a manner that a female who is unfortunate enough to be my size might dress. I've never owned a miniskirt or mini-dress, just never went through that phase for some reason. I do have a couple pairs of heels, but I rarely wear them. I love my flats, sandals and kitten heels.

I do tend to wear skirts or dresses a bit more than many females do, in warmer weather anyway, and I was raised at a time when women wore hosiery if they wanted to dress "properly" and I seem to have taken that rule to heart, as I don't feel completely dressed without sheer hosiery if I'm dressed nicely. If dressed casually, and the weather is warm, then I usually don't wear hosiery. I usually wear knee-highs if I'm wearing pants, mainly because I don't like how shoes feel without hose or socks. So I do dress a little more toward what's being referred to here as extremely feminine, but nowhere near the extreme that many here go to.

I dress to make me happy, and I hope that females don't find my manner of dressing offensive or demeaning to them, but if they do, I can't help that. I need to be me. Back when I used to go out to T-friendly bars a lot, my main place to go to was a lesbian bar where I became accepted as one of the women, and I was accepted there by all but a small group who didn't like transwomen in general. They tolerated me, but didn't like me.

Carol

[Kathi Lake]

Ding ding ding!!!

There are many people out there (but never in here! :)) who think of femininity as an outside-in process. "If I cake on enough layers of femininity - at least as much as I understand it - I will be feminine. Much more so than those 'fake' genetic women who don't even own a dress. Sheesh!"

To me - at least as much as I understand it - femininity is an inside-out process. People see you for who you are on the inside - not for what you wear, or how you look.

:)

Kathi

[sterling12]

Yes....there are certainly "Girly-Girls" out there who do enjoy dressing well, feeling very feminine, and get a huge kick out of it! But, among The Spectrum of Women, they are a tiny fraction. If you ask them privately, they will be glad to tell you about it. Trust me, I'm like Freddi. I've dated enough of them to know!

But for The vast majority of Women, IT'S NOT ABOUT THE CLOTHES! They do not define femininity, nor themselves, based upon dressing choices.

And yes, there seems to be a Fetishistic Element for many Trans Folk. (And yes, many TS Gurls like to dress up for a Party too.) Perhaps we tend to "emphasize" The Appearance items because they are The Visible signs of Femininity, and are The Things we can easily effect. Shaving your legs, wearing stockings, putting on a cute dress? All of that is Easy! Learning a million and one gestures, mindsets, social graces, movements, headshakes, etc. etc.. THAT is Hard! To be 100% totally, habituated into The World of Women may be unobtainable for us. Maybe we just try to achieve what we believe is obtainable.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[LilSissyStevie]

I like to dress in an ultra feminine style and could really care less about what the majority of GGs do. I do this to express myself not because I want imitate some "average" GG or because I think it represents some kind of "ideal" GG. There is a difference between gender (masculine, feminine) and sex (male, female.) Once you "get" the difference, things start to make a lot more sense.:)

[Cari]

For me when I dress its a special occasion so I generally dress up.
I own jeans, pants and casual clothes but they come out if the occasion calls for it or after I've had allot of time to dress.
Some items of clothing do make it easier for me to find my fem side, heels in particular help with the walk ect.
Also skirts are more comfortable because I dont have to tuck as well.

You mention creating a character of a woman and Im guilty of that; however it evolved as I found a sense of style and developed my own tastes.
When I started I thought the more feminine the clothes were the more feminine I would look.
Imagine my surprise when I found out I look best in a skirt suit :-)

I think we CD's are often way to hard on women for not watching there appearance.
I remember researching stocks and a women told me that I was wrong in my assumptions because mascara is a staple item and she wouldnt leave the house without it.

And BTW you are right I would never invest in a CD friendly nudist colony.

[Babeba]

CDs are necessary for women to become feminine again. Feminism is evil. CDs set the standard and become competition for women. Women now have to worry about CDs stealing their men.

Are you drunk? Honestly. I don't see the logic in any of the four statements you've made. In what way are CDs going to set the standard for women? Is that any more realistic than expecting the cast of Jersey Shore to do that job? Also, if the man in question thinks feminism is evil, I wouldn't sigh for his loss. I don't think he and I would have very much to talk about.

It doesn't bother me to see the threads from crossdressers stating the things which make them feel feminine; I've got my own things which make ME feel special, and I truly believe that it's important for everyone to feel entitled to be themselves unfettered. I may not understand some of those things, but it doesn't make them any less valid as ways to get that inner feminine beauty popping through.

Is it ironic, or perhaps a little telling that one of the times when I feel the most 'feminine' is alone, when I catch a glimpse of myself nude or partially nude in the mirror - in the process of getting in or out of the shower, or getting dressed? At least, that's when I feel the most myself and that is really what I define as happily feminine.

[Kate Simmons]

The problem is that no one, including women really knows what femininity is or even masculinity for that matter. We only know what society and the media tell us it's supposed to be. We are daily inundated with suggestions telling us who and what we are based on our anatomical sex. The problem is, real people don't really fit the supposed "mold" as everyone is an individual.

From my own experience at least, I've realized it's mostly about feelings and the clothing is a symbolic way to display those feelings and by extension wigs, makeup and all the other accessories. The extent we do it is the extent we want to convey our feelings to others but mostly puts us in tune with the feelings, which is the main goal. Any supposed femininity we gain is what we make it and there are no "rules" really, only what we've been taught by others and society in general if we choose to follow them. The main thing in my opinion is to always enjoy being ourself regardless of mode of presentation.:)

[Tamara Croft]

CDs are necessary for women to become feminine again. Feminism is evil. CDs set the standard and become competition for women. Women now have to worry about CDs stealing their men.

Ok, someone needs to say it... you really are a twat :rolleyes:

[sissystephanie]

Seanmuscle, you really have been told, by more than one person! Either you know very little about CD's, or you know very little about GG's or maybe both!

I personally dress to please my self, not the rest of the world! I do not try to be really feminine, let alone extremely, but when dressed enfemme I certainly look feminine from the neck down! I do not wear a wig or makeup, so I cannot appear very feminine, but the clothing definitely is feminine!!

[Lorileah]

Any time someone starts something (like a new job, hobby, life) they tend to want to be what they consider the best. It is not unusual for people to go beyond what is really needed in these cases. As was pointed out here, many who dress either don't get much time or they tend to not do it often for whatever reason(s). Usually self imposed. So when they can dress they go over the edge.

It is also common here for CDs to have a jealous streak. This leads to over compensating.

Personal opinion is that if cross dressing tomorrow became a "norm" that 2/3 of the people here would give it up as the thrill factor or the forbidden fruit would be easily obtained. Using that theory, if they "could" dress as they wish they would soon fall into the wearing less dressy things and be just like they are in their daily life now. What ever is comfortable and handy would be the dress of the day. Not to say that skirts and dresses would not be worn but I would bet that they would be worn more as an occasion. Make up would be limited to what is "needed". Shoes would be more practical.

This is not a blanket statement. Look around, there are women who wear heels daily, who use make up daily for dramatic effect and even women who would never wear slacks. I am going to say that CD tend to go to extremes because they don't get to do it every day. Just like a young woman who is starting out in the world.

[kimdl93]

Ok, someone needs to say it... you really are a twat :rolleyes:

OMG, I love it!!! Thank you Tamara!!!

[msniki48]

One thing i see here, is that being feminine doesn't make you female. I can come close but i will never truly be female. there are plenty women who are feminine, and plenty who are not, but they are all Female.

Same goes for the male contingent....Not every male is masculine, but they are definately Male.

I can feel feminine, as a transgendered person, i can actually, think and feel very similarly to that of a female because i'm wired that way [ and very proud of that] [ i call it thinking from both sides of the brain] , but i will never be female.

there are so many layers in this continuum of male to female,one could compare it to all the colors in the spectrum or the many shades of gray.

yep, some of us are a charicature of femininity and are happy being there, i try to be happy with my time as the girl next door, i wish i could be more but life gets in the way.

even if i could transition i would still have an XY chromosome so i could never be a total female... but i can feel the pleasures of being feminine.

just my humble opinion

PS: thanks for making us think...this is a great thread

hugs

[shesadvl]

:eek: shaken my head here at seanmuscle, wow ..... dont know where your head or ideas come from,.. but man I think those that have smacked you for your comment were justified.

I have a saying on the end of my emails.... most often says

"Be who you are..not whom others wish you to be"

that includes dressing, and if you are a cd'er and feel more feminine then good, shows you are enjoying what you do. But dont ever say that CD'ers are necessary for women to become feminine.

I wonder if you have an SO as they say there be hell to pay for that comment....

:battingeyelashes:

[charlie]

Hello Gina!
For me I do not feel good and feminine if I am not wearing a dress or a skirt, nylons and full makeup. I guess that is my vision of being a woman. There is nothing that I am proving to womanhood, setting any standard, or making any point except that I feel good wearing those clothes. I like going out so I do not wear the micro minis or the 6 inch heels. Three inch heels are my most comfortable. Nothing to do with anyone else....just me!

[SandraAbsent]

Ok, someone needs to say it... you really are a twat :rolleyes:
Pretty much sums up my thoughts

Ok, I stopped coming to this forum for a while because I really didn't feel a connection and I refuse to get into a trannier than though conversation. Having been out for a while and met many girls both on the streets and in the virtual world I can say without out a doubt there is a differences between a lot of crossdressers, and lets say a girl that is transexual woman, or even a genetically born woman. (notice my careful use of words there :) )

Sometimes when I read through crossdressing forums I see a lot of the same things, girls posing in unrealistic poses, wearing unrealistic clothes, and using terms phrases to describe what they are wearing or what they are doing that no genetically born woman I have ever met would ever use. BUT THATS OK!!!! I am guilty of having done this myself when I first started. I look at it this way. Often when a girl starts is growing up, they like to play dressup, like to dance awkward dances, strike awkward poses, put on way too much makeup, trying new hairstyles, and the list could go on and on and on. I see this all the time with my nieces. This is no different with a trans woman. Depending on our experiences, how much time we have to be en femme, and what your ultimate goal is and how much time you invest reaching it, we will all be on diferent learning curves. We will all have different views on what being a woman is and what defines femininity.

I personally find myself wanting to be more natural all the time from my voice, to my posture and from my body to my dress. For me this is part of moving towards living as a woman. I know this isnt every ones goal, it's just mine. I would get frustrated coming to crossdressers forums like this because it just didnt feel like a match for me. Now I realize that it is just as much a step for some girls as it was for me and that I cant just say "I out grew that stage."

Anyhow "extreme femininity" is just all part of the learning curve, and for some its all some girls want to be or do. In my book its ok. But never never say that its a benchmark for woman who have lost the femininity, this is just about as much of a farce as I have ever heard.

[Shananigans]

One thing I would say is to be careful in using the words 'femininity' versus 'feminism' - totally different things. But, other than that, you're right. If you're about emulating women, you should be listening, not telling them on what being a woman is. And, I'm not saying "listening more". You have no place in telling a woman what a woman means. Now, some women may have different places they find themselves more comfortable in (being more feminine or more androgynous) so you can take that into account, but they're still women and know it, nonetheless...

Thank you.


CDs are necessary for women to become feminine again. Feminism is evil. CDs set the standard and become competition for women. Women now have to worry about CDs stealing their men.

You're high. If a man wanted to leave me for someone else (CD or otherwise), he can go right ahead. Stupid men are easily replaceable. What I WOULD worry about, if I were you, is that you are heterosexual. As soon as I saw your words, my vagina became very dry and my libido plummeted to the ground. I'd be afraid that you would cause more women to have this reaction.

On the negative side, every day now I get on this site and I become very angry with the number of sexists on this site.
On the plus side, I become more of a feminist and my bisexuality swings from 50/50 to 60/40 (in favor of the women).

If you all really want to exude the feminine essence, learn to be a balancing beam. Learn to be intelligent, be successful, and work "like a man" (but, not be paid like a man or respected like a man in similar positions)....then, work your second job: take the kids to school, make dinner, raise a family, and squeeze in time to put on heels and lipstick at the end of the day so your worthless husband who plants himself on the sofa with a beer at the end of the day doesn't complain that you are getting frumpy.

When you can balance all of the above and not resent humanity, you have successfully become a woman.
Listen and learn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33lRpGPdK5s

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Hey Shananigans, not all here are like this idiot seanmuscle. Please don't let idiots like him wreck the offers in knowledge you and other GG generously give free. It makes me question if the site is not being invaded by a tribe of neanderthal males, like major stupidity and thoughtless remarks makes me wonder. I hope not because I don't want the minority to jeopardize the sites appeal so the majority lose out again.
Back to the topic, I try and emulate female when I get a chance to dress and maybe at times I go to extreme feminizing but I have fun and I enjoy pampering myself. In male mode I guess I maybe a slob, but once I femulate, I try to do it without being ridiculous.
I am trying to learn how to minimize make-up to be more softer in my face than hard lined male and trying to find an every day outfit that suits me and my female part. Looking back at my past attempts I think one does take to extreme feminizing at first but there always seems to be some form of oscillation between minimum and maximum amounts of feminizing till equilibrium occurs naturally then you are at one with yourself and your appearance will become relaxed and appealing. Well I hope so anyway.

[ReineD]

But Im wondering if sometimes since as a cd we can never be truly female, that at times we go to the far extreme. We want to take a almost characture of what a women is and then impose it on ourselves. The problem is then if we try to impose our view of this on the rest of the world and women in general. Then all of a sudden u see, why dont women wear skirts or dresses or take pride in their appearance, or....... Because the focus of crossdressing is on our clothes we transmit that to the focus of being a woman is clothes. I think most would agree that a fairly big leap

I've wondered the same thing! You make valid points and I thank you for bringing it up. :)

The way that femininity is portrayed here at times is vastly different than the reality. Yes, there are women who dress up, and there may well be a few who feel naked without all the fashion & makeup props (Tammy Faye Baker comes to mind). Most of us do dress up for some occasions, but we don't spend so much time and money on our appearance as some members here seem to think, especially as we move forward in our lives (past the age of finding a mate), to careers and child rearing.

I understand needing to be ultra feminine from a CDer's viewpoint since it is difficult to mask the male gender cues without doing otherwise, especially in the beginning of the learning curve. But then it seems as if some CDers do lose a sense of reality when they stop being able to see a woman's femininity just because she doesn't go to the same extremes in her own presentation.

My impression from reading threads here is that generally, CDers say they dress because they wish at some level to get in touch with their feminine sides and this is why they enjoy wearing the clothes. But I've often wondered if there is also a deep love and fascination with idealized feminine beauty as well, to the degree of developing a deep seated need for replicating it. In other words, it is not enough to be feminine, but one must be beautiful as well. (I'm not suggesting this is true for all CDers.)

With my own SO and other CDers, I've observed a distinct attraction to beautiful women (their faces, hair, and bodies), and the clothes they wear that are designed to enhance their beauty, far more than just a regular guy's attraction to a pretty girl. And this is helped along by the obliging media which plays an important role in establishing these very high beauty standards. Magazines, fashion catalogues, the TV and silver screens have a much higher proportion of women who are more beautiful than the norm, which might make it seem to those who are fascinated with feminine beauty as if it is the norm. So from this perspective, I can understand why a CDer might not value the average woman's femininity (when she dresses in blue jeans and wears no makeup), in comparison to the high standards set forth in the media. Unfortunately this exasperates those of us who are average and who are in relationships with said CDers. lol

I remember in a thread once I brought forth the idea that we are not born with makeup on and a cute skirt. A woman's non-stereotypical baseline is no makeup and comfortable clothing, and if she is alone with no plans of going out or receiving visitors, by and large this is how she will present herself. When she does dress up, she is conforming to the stereotypes of idealized beauty set forth by the media. Needless to say, my ideas were not well received. :p If I recall, the CDers in that thread were arguing that a woman IS at her baseline norm when she is dressed fashionably and hiding behind a makeup mask. lol

There are many shades of gray to everything and I'm by no means suggesting that all women hate fashion and makeup, and only put it on to conform with societal expectations of how they should look. We are, after all, socialized in the same culture that panders to consumerism and rewards ideal beauty, so when it suits our purposes, we want to decorate ourselves as well. We receive positive feedback when we do and we like it, myself included.

But, it is important to remember that the media ideal for feminine beauty that so many here aspire to is not the norm for the majority of women, and it would be good to remember to appreciate the average woman, even when she is presenting as her undecorated, baseline self. :)



Heaven forbid that I ever get through and actually discover what femininity consists of. That might just spoil the whole endeavor.

Yup, it just might! :D :hugs:


CDs are necessary for women to become feminine again. Feminism is evil. CDs set the standard and become competition for women. Women now have to worry about CDs stealing their men.

Sean, you really should give it up. Surely by now you can see that your opinions are in the minority here.

[sometimes_miss]

I mean how many time do u read about someone not feeling right if they dont wear a skirt or dress or if they are not completely made up. Gina
There are plenty of women out there that would not even consider leaving the house without doing their make up and hair,and putting one a 'nice dress'; and there are also those who don't feel good unless they are wearing a hot dress or skirt and heels because they LIKE feeling beautiful and sexy. Not all; but more than you'd imagine. And no, you won't read about them, as it's really not considered 'news'; for lots of them, it's just part of being a woman.
And over the years I've heard lots of women tell another woman how great and how 'hot' they look, and that woman certainly enjoyed the comment and basked in the moment. Why does that make it 'extremely feminine'? Does anyone ever approach a woman who's in a beautiful dress and heels and say, 'Hey, you're extremely feminine today!'? Probably, well, never.
And millions of women dress up every day, trying to look their best, wearing beautiful female attire that accentuates everything female about them, without the intention of inspiring lust in anyone in particular. So, why can't we do the same. All we want to do is feel beautiful. Women get to do it. It shouldn't be an incident or a crime when we do.

[ReineD]

There are plenty of women out there that would not even consider leaving the house without doing their make up and hair,and putting one a 'nice dress'; and there are also those who don't feel good unless they are wearing a hot dress or skirt and heels because they LIKE feeling beautiful and sexy. Not all; but more than you'd imagine. And no, you won't read about them, as it's really not considered 'news'; for lots of them, it's just part of being a woman.

You illustrate the point I made very well. I do understand why you think the way you do though. But, if you go to any average, mid-sized town mall (not an upscale mall near a ritzy area), and observe the women who walk by, how many are dressed the way you describe?

If, however you are describing the way that women dress when they go out on the town, then I agree with you. :) But an evening out on the town is not an average activity for most people.

[Sue101]

but we don't spend so much time and money on our appearance as some members here seem to think Isn't the common complaint here that women no longer try to appear feminine?
Another thing to consider is the massive fashion and beauty industry which makes up a significant proportion of all consumer spending. Women say they are not bothered about such things but they sure do spend a lot of time shopping for these things.


But then it seems as if some CDers do lose a sense of reality when they stop being able to see a woman's femininity just because she doesn't go to the same extremes in her own presentation. That depends if you consider wearing a dress an extreme. Isn't the issue here that women are no longer interested or cannot be bothered to visually express femininity? Ask any men what he thinks of as femininity and he will list mostly the visual clues. That is what men see and want.


With my own SO and other CDers, I've observed a distinct attraction to beautiful women (their faces, hair, and bodies), and the clothes they wear that are designed to enhance their beauty, far more than just a regular guy's attraction to a pretty girl. True enough. But doesn't every woman aslo not want to be pretty and be considered the most beautiful in the world. I am not sure why we are being chastised for wanting the same thing women want.


But, it is important to remember that the media ideal for feminine beauty that so many here aspire to is not the norm for the majority of women, and it would be good to remember to appreciate the average woman, even when she is presenting as her undecorated, baseline self. Honestly Reine we live in the real world and we are all perfectly aware of the difference between the average woman and models. Lets remember instead that crossdressers are chasing after fantasies and good feelings and often have only very limited opportunities to do so thus we will always take the opportunity to take our dressing to the extremes.


But, if you go to any average, mid-sized town mall (not an upscale mall near a ritzy area), and observe the women who walk by, how many are dressed the way you describe? True but why do you insist that we must relate to the average woman. Why cannot crossdressers relate to the girly girls and use them as our role models? We dress for ourselves, we are not competeing with our SOs nor are we compensating for any real or perceived lack of femininity in our SOs. If our overt desire for femininity grates with you then the answer lies within you, meaning you have issues with people who wish to emphasize femininity.

PS - When I am using "you", I mean the generic you not the you you!

[Kathi Lake]

As soon as I saw your words, my vagina became very dry and my libido plummeted to the ground. I'd be afraid that you would cause more women to have this reaction.Ah, Shananigans. Thank you for one of the best troll-busting quotes in memory. You rock, woman!! :)


The way that femininity is portrayed here at times is vastly different than the reality.And it always will be. In my opinion, no crossdresser will ever 'get' the other sex. We may think we do at times, but it is "through a glass, darkly" if I can lift a quote. Reine, you do, at least, 'get it' in that we are at a disadvantage when trying to emulate the other side, and have to compensate by piling on what we feel that other side needs to have. As guys, we are visual. We concentrate on the curvy, the pretty, the 'shiny' things. Certain things just scream "female" to us, and we carry that into our dressing activities. For some, it's that plus a fetishistic component. For instance, if it weren't for some of us, there would be no market for large size maid uniforms, rhumba panties, or especially garter belts. Those industries would have blown away years ago. :)

When I was starting out, my wife took me aside and laughingly - yet lovingly - said I was going about it all wrong. She said that I was concentrating on the outside - clothes, makeup, etc. - the trappings of what the world saw as femininity. She told me that it came from inside. She had me start reading a series of books from Jeanette Oak. She told me to pay attention to her internal dialog, her thoughts, hopes, dreams, and reactions. She told me that femininity and beauty came from the inside. Now, I'm not suggesting that reading some books will suddenly make us feminine, I'm saying that we need to think in terms of who we are on the inside. Love that person.

Kathi

[ReineD]

Sue101,

Yes, fashion & beauty sales are large. But other sectors of the retail industry are larger, including food, household, automotive, electronics, and a host of others. My point is, the average woman doesn't spend as much time and money on her appearance, clothing, and accessories as do the CDers who post here ... unless all the threads I've read from members who describe the size of their closets and their love of shopping are pure fantasy? :)


As to chastising you for wanting to look pretty, perhaps you missed the following part of my post?



There are many shades of gray to everything and I'm by no means suggesting that all women hate fashion and makeup, and only put it on to conform with societal expectations of how they should look. We are, after all, socialized in the same culture that panders to consumerism and rewards ideal beauty, so when it suits our purposes, we want to decorate ourselves as well. We receive positive feedback when we do and we like it, myself included.

I fully appreciate and support any CDer's desire to be feminine, and to go to the lengths he/she must in order to do so. But, you seem to have missed my major points: It is my observation that CDers in general are more fascinated with "ideal" feminine beauty than is the average woman, and further, the desire to be beautiful rather than merely expressing a feminine nature may be a fundamental reason many members here CDress. Also, this obsession with "the media-type beautiful" rather than garden variety femininity, may lead some members here to have an exaggerated, stereotypical, or fetishized view of what it is to be a woman in our society.

Kathi got to the point much more quickly than I:



There are many people out there (but never in here! :)) who think of femininity as an outside-in process. "If I cake on enough layers of femininity - at least as much as I understand it - I will be feminine. Much more so than those 'fake' genetic women who don't even own a dress. Sheesh!"

To me - at least as much as I understand it - femininity is an inside-out process. People see you for who you are on the inside - not for what you wear, or how you look.

:hugs:

[Stitch]

True enough. But doesn't every woman aslo not want to be pretty and be considered the most beautiful in the world. I am not sure why we are being chastised for wanting the same thing women want.

While all women like to think that on some scale they are attractive, I doubt everyone wants to be the most beautiful in the world. There is more to life than being pretty. I'd rather be loved for who I am rather than because I am genetically female. Incidentally I see that's also what you pretty much have as your own signature. I want to be loved and admired as much for my personality and abilities as a person, then just because I may look attractive. Beauty is fleeting after all.
I find "beauty" to be rather generic these days. The universally attractive people all look so samey, like they've all been carved out with the same cookie cutter.


That depends if you consider wearing a dress an extreme. Isn't the issue here that women are no longer interested or cannot be bothered to visually express femininity? Ask any men what he thinks of as femininity and he will list mostly the visual clues. That is what men see and want.

Pssh. I actually feel my most feminine when I am completely naked, without all my bells and whistles. I feel great getting up in the morning and seeing just how cute I look without makeup. As for what men want, I am pretty sure that when I am naked my boyfriend totally does want me. For GGs it isn't always about clothing or make up, and you know what? I feel just as feminine and cute in my dowdy artist clothes covered in paint than when I'm in a dress.

This next part isn't nessarily aimed at you Sue, its more of something I've noticed in general on the forum.
It's very disheartening to come to this forum as a member, as someone who supports and adores her CDing pattern and hear time after time that women aren't feminine enough. I have no qualms with CDers who wish to express their vision of femininity, its when they start attacking women for theirs that bothers me. It frustrates me so much that demographic of people who so wish for acceptance and love, turn around and are so unaccepting of the differences of a whole other group of people. I sometimes wonder why I even bother to come here. It's not always the most welcoming of forums. I generally find that my generation of CDers (25 and under) are hell of a lot more accepting of GGs styles as a whole than the older generation, and its them and the FABs which make me feel okay to be here.

[kimdl93]

.... its more of something I've noticed in general on the forum. It's very disheartening to come to this forum as a member, as someone who supports and adores her CDing pattern and hear time after time that women aren't feminine enough. I have no qualms with CDers who wish to express their vision of femininity, its when they start attacking women for theirs that bothers me. It frustrates me so much that demographic of people who so wish for acceptance and love, turn around and are so unaccepting of the differences of a whole other group of people.... .

This really bears repeating and emphasis.

[Fab Karen]

IF there's such a cult, then there are plenty of GG's who have joined it as well ( as a well-known example, the Kardashian girls ). If all the stores selling dresses & skirts & fab make-up relied just on sales to CD's, they'd go broke. Over & over on this site we get the silly message sent that "all women are identical" ( whether for example the moronic "all women want to give birth" or the absurd "all women hate high heels" ).

[docrobbysherry]

Let me say a few words before Sean steals this thread, unless he already has!?

We're simply trying to emulate that which looks attractive to us! At least, I AM! I saw a stunning woman in the bank today I couldn't help but stare! And, she noticed! :o I'm SURE she gets that a lot!:daydreaming:

Immaculately dressed. Peep toe shoes with perfectly toe nails, hands too! Not too much of anything, just that everything about her look was perfectly coordinated and presented!:battingeyelashes:

So what if we rarely see women like that out? We see them all the time on TV, in movies, and in newspapers and magazines!:thumbsup:

If u only dress occasionally, like I do, why NOT make the effort to look EXTREMELY FEMININE!?:brolleyes:

[BettyShore]

Gina, having dressed and pondered this issue since I was very young, I have a strong feeling that I am my own space and gender. I do not believe that women feel what I feel, and I do not believe that I feel what women feel. I believe that the feelings of a man who feels like a woman are unique. Ultimately, the strongest empathy that I have is with other *Tgirls, and ultimately, the greatest support and empathy that I know is *T to *T. Just my 2Cs. ;-)

[Sue101]

It is my observation that CDers in general are more fascinated with "ideal" feminine beauty than is the average woman, and further, the desire to be beautiful rather than merely expressing a feminine nature may be a fundamental reason many members here CDress. I agree but I don't think you take this point far enough. I made this point elsewhere but i will repeat it again.

Most crossdressers are not trying emulate women because they are not as transgendered as they would like to think they are. There are transgendered crossdressers out there but the average crossdresser is not, but does like the label because it neatly explains his behavior. What I perceive is going on for most is they are trying to recapture and project onto themselves specific female images that communicate to them femininity. It is not about idealism over beauty, it is idealism over feminity. This is why older crossdressers often seek to recreate the feminine images of the 1950-60s and why so many crossdressers focus on lingerie, hookers outfits and maid's uniforms etc. If a crossdresser is truly trying to emulate a woman then he would do his best to blend in by toning down his style to an androgynous look.

Here is my best shot. Think of femininity as a drug which has been fined tuned to get men high. If you are a cis man and want a shot then you have to be with a woman. Crossdressers discovered plan B - get hold of a syringe of femininity and shot it directly into your veins. We get what we want directly instead of via a third party. It is a shortcut to get to that happy place we want to be.


I doubt everyone wants to be the most beautiful in the world. There is more to life than being pretty. True but I would suggest if given the choice everyone wants to be pretty AND admired for their other qualities or put it the other way nobody wants to be ugly and admired for other qualities.


For GGs it isn't always about clothing or make up, and you know what? I feel just as feminine and cute in my dowdy artist clothes covered in paint than when I'm in a dress. What you are describing is how women and men have different takes on femininity. Women feel it comes from within while men can only relate to the external visuals since they have been forbidden to feel these feelings for themselves.


It's very disheartening to come to this forum as a member, as someone who supports and adores her CDing pattern and hear time after time that women aren't feminine enough. If you understand my drugs analogy then you will understand these sentiments come from the craving crossdressers have for femininity which intensifies their desire to experience it not just in themselves but in others.

[Megan70]

I think we expect far to much from real GG's and think they should dress the way WE want them do and not what is natural and comfortable for them. For most GG's wearing hosiery is a pain in the ass where with me its a high holy ritual. To them it its merely wearing a material against their legs when they have to.
Our selfishness as CD's ( a natural trait) demands the world and GG's revolve around us because after all aren't we truly the feminine ones. ( tongue in cheek here)
Agree totally with your comments. Many of us go way overboard because we have our head up our ass or in a pink cloud. Leave the real girls alone.

Megan

[ReineD]

IF there's such a cult, then there are plenty of GG's who have joined it as well ( like the Kardashian girls ). If all the stores selling dresses & skirts & fab make-up relied just on sales to CD's, they'd go broke.

But that's my point. The Kardashians aren't real, in that they are not representative of the average. They are a part of the media ideal: the type of (above average) beauty and allure that men desire and that women are conditioned to want to imitate because of this. This is why the Kardashians are on TV! :)

I also said above that the feminine fashion and makeup industry is large. But so is the total population of women. Spread everything out per capita (among women and CDs) and I guarantee you the CDers will have a greater personal share of the bounty than the AVERAGE GG. There will be some GGs who rival CDers in terms of purchases (the younger women who are looking for mates perhaps, or the women who do source their self-esteem from their looks), but not most women. Just look at all the women at the average mall (not the SAs who are selling the stuff) and you will see what I mean.

I also want to make it clear that I don't believe there's anything wrong with a CDer presenting as feminine as she does. The issue is, if she compares herself to the average, not quite so glam/fashionable/whatever GG and thinks less of her because of it.



So what if we rarely see women like that out? We see them all the time on TV, in movies, and in newspapers and magazines!:thumbsup:

Precisely!



If u only dress occasionally, like I do, why NOT make the effort to look EXTREMELY FEMININE!?:brolleyes:

No one is saying that you shouldn't make the effort to look as pretty or as feminine as you want! :) The point is rather about CDers not thinking that the beauty ideal they aspire to (which is in large part constructed and maintained by the media), is baseline or average for women, and the women who don't look like that just don't measure up.

I saw a comment in another thread that made my blood boil. The thread is about whether or not CDs who don't pass or blend should go out in public. One member said that if GGs can go out and "not pass" as women :angry: then why can't CDers.

This is precisely the attitude that I think the OP wants to flag: the idea that if a GG does not measure up to a CDer's ideal (i'm repeating this for emphasis .. the stereotype that is constructed by the media), then she is not feminine enough and she doesn't "pass". :angry:


It is not about idealism over beauty, it is idealism over feminity.

That's exactly what I'm saying! :)



Here is my best shot. Think of femininity as a drug which has been fined tuned to get men high. If you are a cis man and want a shot then you have to be with a woman. Crossdressers discovered plan B - get hold of a syringe of femininity and shot it directly into your veins. We get what we want directly instead of via a third party. It is a shortcut to get to that happy place we want to be.

You've explained it brilliantly!! The point I was getting at earlier is the danger of getting so high on that self-injected drug that the CDer becomes less attracted to his average looking wife or girlfriend than he might otherwise, simply because the wife or girlfriend doesn't measure up. How can she excite him to the same degree? And on a separate note, this is precisely what threatens some of the GGs who are in relationships with CDers. She can develop a nagging feeling that if she wasn't around, her husband would be perfectly satisfied without her, since he has himself. She thinks that he doesn't need her if he gets high on himself in a style that he considers to be more feminine than she is. It isn't a stretch for the wife to then believe that if he wasn't a CDer (if he is enamored with this hard to reach beauty ideal), then she might stand higher in his system of priorities ... and this is why she might decide she doesn't want to support the CDing.

To step back a bit, my primary reason for participating in this forum is not to put down CDers for being who they are, or defend a wife for being less than supportive. It is rather to bridge the gap by attempting to describe at least on the GG's side, why she feels the way she does. My impression from reading the threads is that many CDers think their non-accepting wives are simply against the concept of the CDing, as in a man wearing a dress. They don't realize that it runs much deeper than this: it is rather about the fear that her husband will no longer need her.

This thread attempts to flag one of the things that GGs read frequently in this forum: the idea that because many CDers have an idealized/stereotypical/fetishized view of femininity, they believe the average GG who wears jeans and no makeup doesn't "pass". And this very idea reinforces the GGs' fears that they are not enough for their husbands.

[Shelly Preston]

I think for the most part everyone tries to look the best they can, which can mean extreme femminity at times
However. As has been said toning it down and blending in is more realistic to how women are in everyday life. The difficulty for most is keeping it toned down, while still projecting there female persona ( be they CD or TS ) as they dont want their male side showing.

Also we are all individuals and for some the few opportunities to express themselves means that they go for the most glamourous look they can.

[victoriamwilliams1]

I used to be one of those girls who did not feel right unless I was in a skirt, hose and heels and now I feel comfy in bare legs ans pants. I think it is a growth thing for many of us and as we grow we tend to see that our views change. I know for me mine have:)

[Kathi Lake]

The Kardashians aren't real, . . . They are a part of the media ideal: the type of (above average) beauty and allure that men desire and that women are conditioned to want to imitate because of this.Maybe this is why I don't 'get it.' To me, the Kardashians, and other women that the media say I should go ga-ga over nearly disgust me. It wasn't always that way, though.

In my early dating life, I was I guess what you would describe as a typical red-blooded American male. I went after what I thought the world wanted me to go after - beautiful women. I dated models, and the more gorgeous, shallow, vain, and self-centered the better! :) Was I handsome or even in their league? Heck no! However, through confidence in myself and discovering the fact that most beautiful women are usually pretty lonely most of the time (as they put it, "Most guys are usually too afraid to ask me out."). After doing this, and getting no more than fleeting satisfaction from these women, I finally found my wife.

Now this is a woman that I normally wouldn't have given a second glance. Mousy hair, dumpy (for my tastes, anyway) body. Bookish and smart, but painfully shy. Most of my friends said, "What are you doing with her?!" We once met an old girlfriend of mine and she pointed to my wife, laughed and said, "You dumped me for that!?" (talk about sparks flying! :)). So, why did this woman attract me? Simple. Because she shone! Her beauty, her femininity, her grace, her incredible goodness drew me much more than the external beauty I formerly sought. Now, 25 years later, even though she is not what the world would call beautiful, she is the most incredible, most beautiful, most radiant person I know. There is no way that I could come close to even simulating the natural femininity and beauty that radiates from inside her. I am by no means beautiful, and go to great pains to let everyone know that. When my friends call me beautiful, I know what they mean, because we talk about it. I had a Facebook chat with one of my Ulta friends a few weeks ago. We were talking about a recent makeover experience she had, and I said something like "Well, at least she was probably easier than a 'fake woman' like me." She said, "Kathi, you are not a fake! That's why I like you. You are more real, more beautiful, and more of a woman than many of the women I know. You're true to yourself, you like yourself, and honestly care for others. That is rare." I certainly hope that I - and others here - work on our insides before caring about what is on our outside.

So, maybe that's why I get baffled at times when we concentrate on the outer artifice, and neglect where true beauty comes from. I'll give you a hint - it doesn't come from Saks or silicone or Sephora.

:)

Kathi

[Fab Karen]

But that's my point. The Kardashians aren't real, in that they are not representative of the average.
So any woman who wears make-up, dresses, heels isn't real?
I also said above that the feminine fashion and makeup industry is large. .... and I guarantee you the CDers will have a greater personal share of the bounty than the AVERAGE GG.

There will be some GGs who rival CDers in terms of purchases...
One of the things I was saying.
Just look at all the women at the average mall (not the SAs who are selling the stuff) and you will see what I mean.
where I live some are more average, some are in dresses/skirts, sometimes in high heels as well.

I also want to make it clear that I don't believe there's anything wrong with a CDer presenting as feminine as she does.
You disagree with one of the issues of this whole thread- that's good to hear.
The issue is, if she compares herself to the average, not quite so glam/fashionable/whatever GG and thinks less of her because of it.

I knew a media figure would get jumped on- it was just a well-known example. They're on tv because of a famous last name & a producer agreed it'd make a popular show ( I don't watch it btw ).

AVERAGE, AVERAGE, AVERAGE... why would I want to be THAT? China has made it official policy. Different strokes, Individuality isn't a four-letter-word ( though I know some are shocked by the news that not all GG's are alike ). Personally I don't look down on someone for what they wear ( unless it's beige :) ( that was humor ) ) and anyone talking of GG's "not passing" is a misogynist. I only compete with myself ( don't have the money to compete with Lady Gaga ( more humor ) ).

[ReineD]

I'm sorry you were offended by my words, Fab Karen. I do think we are talking in very general terms and the issue might well be that the mental image you conjure up when reading my words is not the one I am attempting to convey. It's hard to accurately convey aesthetics without having actual pictures, since everyone defines it differently for themselves. :)

I wonder if others are taking offense as well, or if it is just you. You do seem to think that I am saying you should be average? Please read my posts again. I am merely suggesting the glam-type CDers (not you specifically) should not believe the ideals they aspire to is an average benchmark for femininity, and to also not put down the average GG for presenting herself the way she does.

[Fractured]

Sue101,
Yes, fashion & beauty sales are large. But other sectors of the retail industry are larger, including food, household, automotive, electronics, and a host of others. My point is, the average woman doesn't spend as much time and money on her appearance, clothing, and accessories as do the CDers who post here ... unless all the threads I've read from members who describe the size of their closets and their love of shopping are pure fantasy? :)


My SO was very excited that she could wear junior size panties and get a pack of nine bikini briefs for less than eight dollars. She was more concerned about the cost of something so utilitarian and mundane as panties than how sexy or feminine they were. I can't say I blame her - I don't recall the last time I bought new boxers. For me and my SO, we don't ordinarily put much thought into our undergarments. Based on this experience, I would have to agree with you, Reine.



You've explained it brilliantly!! The point I was getting at earlier is the danger of getting so high on that self-injected drug that the CDer becomes less attracted to his average looking wife or girlfriend than he might otherwise, simply because the wife or girlfriend doesn't measure up. How can she excite him to the same degree? And on a separate note, this is precisely what threatens some of the GGs who are in relationships with CDers. She can develop a nagging feeling that if she wasn't around, her husband would be perfectly satisfied without her, since he has himself. She thinks that he doesn't need her if he gets high on himself in a style that he considers to be more feminine than she is. It isn't a stretch for the wife to then believe that if he wasn't a CDer (if he is enamored with this hard to reach beauty ideal), then she might stand higher in his system of priorities ... and this is why she might decide she doesn't want to support the CDing.

My impression from reading the threads is that many CDers think their non-accepting wives are simply against the concept of the CDing, as in a man wearing a dress. They don't realize that it runs much deeper than this: it is rather about the fear that her husband will no longer need her.

This thread attempts to flag one of the things that GGs read frequently in this forum: the idea that because many CDers have an idealized/stereotypical/fetishized view of femininity, they believe the average GG who wears jeans and no makeup doesn't "pass". And this very idea reinforces the GGs' fears that they are not enough for their husbands.

It's thoughts like these that make me glad that I stumbled across this forum. I would never had been able to word the issue so eloquently or with such a straight-forward statement. Part of that problem is that I would never have managed to maneuver my thoughts to actually see the issue in that light, which I can see as being extremely valid. I would hate for my SO to think that she is not enough for me. Yes there are times I wish she would dress up more but then I am sure there are times she would like me to put on more formal attire that jeans and a t-shirt as well. Regardless of who is dressing to what level, though, I will do my utmost to make sure that she knows that she is enough for me and that I love to look at her no matter what she is wearing (or not wearing ;) )

[ReineD]

I will do my utmost to make sure that she knows that she is enough for me and that I love to look at her no matter what she is wearing (or not wearing ;) )

Good on you, Fractured! My SO looked at it the same way you do, and this is why he/she has such a strong supporter in me. :)

I don't think you'll have issues in your marriage over this at all! :hugs:

Welcome to the forum!