Why I want to be a woman Part 2

[Speck]

Hi, I'm a gg who doesn't say much but before you crucify me for what I'm about to say, please know that a more accepting GG you will not find.

I just finished reading all the posts in response to "Why do I want to be a woman?" and what struck me is that neither a CD, a TG or a TS can ever know what it is to be born with a female physical form, a female gender identity and to be socialized as female.

Some of you may have some physical features that are more female than male but there are physical features of being male that are in the wiring of the brain. Some of you have an identity that is more female than male but none of us will ever know what portion that identity might still be male because we can't really measure it. And few of you have been socialized as female. I can understand that you want your physical form to match your more female inate traits but when you judge that the female role in our society has less expectations placed on it or that it's ok for us to be softer, or that we're less competitive or aggressive, I'd ask you to think again.

I don't for one minute think that I understand what it's like to male, nor do I think I understand what it's like to be transgendered. But I think a mix up of hormones can cause someone with the male form to feel and act more feminine. Depending on the amount of hormone mix up, it can lead a genetic male to either be a fetish CD, a man who finds crossdressing as a way to relieve stress or a man who feels she's a woman trapped in the male form. However, I believe the male brain is different from the female brain in ways that go beyond hormones and the impact of the way a woman is socialized goes beyond the understanding of one who is socialized as male.

I mean no disrespect to those who have decided to transition because I truly believe that for many, it is the right thing to do so that the outside can match the inside more closely. But I think more closely is all you get and if it's worth all the trade offs you might need to make, or if you feel it's the only alternative to suicide, I'm all for it.

But for the vast majority who are here talking about clothes and make up, projecting their thoughts on feminity, the female psyche and the female experience and all the connections you all make to the physical act of sex, well I see it as more testosterone than any real connection to someone who is female on the inside and the outside.

I personally know someone who says she feels all woman on the inside and indeed when all dressed up, looks as female as I do. And to tell her that I see so many of her behaviours as male seems to be an insult to her. I don't mean it as an insult because men and women may behave differently but I don't think one is more wrong or right than the other. I just don't think that all the feminine inner feelings and all the feminine clothes put together account for everything it takes to be a woman. I think there's some female wiring in the brain that is just different from the male wiring and all the SRS can't change it.

We are extremely competitive, we are very aggressive, we have expectations placed on us that are just as impossible, we think very deeply, we pay attention to the nuances of relationships, we nurture, we fret...but the clothes and make up? To me, they are just as irrelevant to life as chasing a ball around a field. If you like clothes and make up, or enjoy playing sports, go for it. You have one life to live, live it in any way that makes you happy. But please, don't fool yourself into thinking that you are a woman 100% or that you understand the female experience 100%. Leave room for doubt when you describe what femininity is.

Ok, now go ahead and crucify me...

Speck

[Kaitlyn Michele]

What's your point?

I'm sorry but you are not an accepting GG..can't hate you for your post though...lots of people feel the same way you do, and that attitude is a part what causes so much shame and guilt in the tg community

[Sophie_C]

Hi Speck, I think you're lumping too many things together here. Yes, crossdressing is testesterone / male-mind driven. Yes, it is fairly fetishistic.

But, being transgendered DOES EXIST. It has been roughly proven biologically (specific brain sections match women for tg women, men for tg men, etc).

Let me put this in perspective: I've known I've been transgendered since I was a teenager (I am in my 30s). Generally speaking, I don't dress and haven't since around that time, when things are all mixed up for everyone. However, my behavior, attitude, thought processes, etc - have always been in the range you describe as 'female', and no matter how much I tried to change it, it always reverted back. And, no matter how much I try to bottle it up and contain it, it sort of 'leaks out' here and there. People often take it as being 'effeminate' and that I'm just basically a gay man in denial (and I'm not going into sexuality here - I know exactly what I am), but whenever I 'slip up' I know what happened. Now, transitioning and being able to behave and dress how I'd like to, would make me far more comfortable, but the clothes are not exactly the thing here, if you can get it?

Lastly, as other GG's have posted here, there is a wide range of existance, attitude, behavior that makes up all sorts of different women. Are you to tell me that all women that are: nonaggressive, don't think deeply, don't pay attention to the nuances of relationships, don't nurture, or don't fret are not women, either? Because I've met my fair share of all of them.

So, when it comes to the transgendered side of things: Yes, it's not possible, unless someone transitioned as a child, to have the experience of being socialized as a woman and (relatively speaking) the mind of a woman. But, realize that you are doing exactly what you are saying transgendered people are doing. You're looking from the outside in. You do not know how it is, since you are not there. No two people are the same, and how do you know that transgendered people do not have minds that fall in the same range as bio people are? And, how do you know how much of the difference you see there is a result of the way they are treated, and not given the ability to socialize and live as you point out yourself?

[KrystalA]

I guess to some people, no matter what we do or say or think, or how we look or feel, we're all just guys in drag.

[Sara Jessica]

Wow, there's so much in your opinion that lends itself to thoughtful consideration.

I think the most concise way to reply is, and of course this is speaking for myself, that while you point out that you cannot know what it is to be male, or to be TG, the way I feel each and every day is that I cannot really fathom what it is to be male because all I know is TG. My heart & soul are wired female, and it's fair to assume my brain is as well. This has served me well in relationships as well as career, having what I believe to be a true feminine perspective. I know nothing else, just as the average person out there cannot even fathom what it's like to have gender as an issue to varying degrees 24/7/365. I cherish my perspective despite the torment it brings to my entire being.

[TGMarla]

I'll go ahead and disagree with Kaitlyn Michele, and say that I completely agree with our Ms. Speck. I find no fault at all in what she's saying. I see no denigration to TS people in her post, nor any insult to any crossdressing or transgendered people. She's hit upon an irrefutable point here: That genetically, males and females are different. This difference affects brain pattern. Many transgendered males, while desperately needing to transition or at least present female, still have the social and genetic engineering of the male brain. They had to live their early lives, at least, being brought up as males. Even a boy who is raised as a female still has the male engineering and thought patterns to deal with.

She's not dumping on anyone here. She's merely expressing a well-thought out point of view that has a ton of validity to it whether you like it or not.

Nope. She's right as rain here. You can hate on it all you want, but if you do, you're wrong.

Sophie....females thought patterns don't have to "leak out". They're just there. The fact that for you, it tends to "leak out", proves her point.

Sara, good point. Males cannot fathom the entire female experience, but non-transgendered people cannot fathom the TG experience either. I'll never know what it's like to be completely male or female. TG is all I've ever known.

[Pythos]

I look at the idea of a male "knowing" what it is like to be female the same way I would look at the idea of a human "knowing" what it is like to be a cat. The OP is voicing on of my main problems with our community.

We can only know the surface things about being a woman, the feel of the clothing, the look of the body in the mirror, and some, but not all of the social nonsense they put up with. In ways we put up with a different flavor of that nonsense....namely pure hate.

But we will NEVER know the pains of pre menstral syndrome, nor the pain or joy of child birth. We will never really know much about the effects of hormones because even if we take hormones we have our male biology to base the effects off of, whereas women are born with that. On the flip side a woman can never really and truly know how it is to be male. Once again she can get very very close, but never know the whole picture.

To the second poster telling the op that she is not accepting. That was just wrong. You don't know her, for all you know she could be a very wonderful person that understands our plight better than most GGs.

Speck, I do have to say though, the "we think deeper" and such is a tad bit sexist, and untrue. My GG is certainly not thinking things through which keeps getting her into a lot of trouble. She is not all that competitive (frankly I think a lot of competitive is something that needs to be trimmed in our culture), aggressive is also another trait of humans I feel needs to be lessened. Those traits you mentioned are neither male nor female. They are just that which we are told are male and female by dumb masses.

[Sophie_C]

Marla, I'm addressing MY surpression. Obviously, they're just there. It doesn't prove her point. It does the opposite. How are my female thought patterns that I can't stop an indication of my ALL MALE thought patterns she's asserting. I'm lost.

[Stephanie Miller]

Speck, here’s a little food for thought.
There are two links below. One takes you to a site that explains all about the brain and how it is “wired”, and another is about a boy raised as a girl. Two items you seem to have brought up as being vital as to being a real female. So, if that is what it takes and the young boy/girl in the article has the brain wired as a female, has the experiences of being raised a female, has the clothes to be female but the anatomy of a male…. Is she male or female? Anatomy, clothes, experiences – or the whole package?
I went to college with a girls that was raised on a ranch with her 5 brothers and father. Mom died at her birth. She carried herself male, dressed male, acted male. ( Never personally saw the anatomy – but other girls confirmed for me :D ) So is she male?
Raised As A Girl:
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/parents-and-school-decide-fl-boy-to-be-raised-as-girl
How The Brain Is Wired:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034
In summary:
In short, our findings seem to support the hypothesis that the somatostatinergic sex differences, the female number of SOM neurons in the BSTc of the male-to-female transsexual brain and the male number of SOM neurons in the BSTc of the FMT are not the result of changes of sex hormone levels in adulthood. Instead, the neuronal differences are likely to have been established earlier during development
The Female and the transexual were very close compared to the average male.

I kind of think each and every one of us should be rated male or female on our own merits. Not someone else’s.

[Shareecd]

Speck,
I agree with you to an extent. I have been going to a therapist moving on to my transition to a woman hopefully later this year. It has occurred to me several times over the last year that while we can all live our lives as close to be the woman we feel and know we are inside there is a part of life we will or have never lived. Growing up with a sister and having all daughters (3), along with seeing the women at work, I know there are many things us transsexuals will not have experienced. some of which is bearing children and the many difficulties facing bias that women are not equal to men but are expected to play a different role in society. I am not crucifying you at all and understadn your point. The thing with at least me is that this has been a conflict I have lived with for as long as I can remember and if I had a choice back then I would have expereiced all of these (except for child birth), that you are i think referring to. I think we who are transitioning need to respect that there are some differences, however i think that once we begin a serious path towards becoming our true selves than we do in fact experience a great deal of challenges. I red in one of the posts on a different site that the work place needs to understand that a person who transitions is no less a person. This is because of the many challenges they face. If they complete the transition it means they are a strong individual who can really face adversity and still come through it. In that since we women of late are the same but as in every case in our lives we have to respect the accomplishments and challenges of how each person as individuals have had to face. Thank you for the post. It made me think again about the things my wife has had to face and how my being a woman relates to her past versus our future together with me as a woman.
Jaycee

[adrienner99]

A very honest post. Thank you for the straight talk.

No, men don't know what it's like to be female. I have crossdressed for 40 years and still cannot get to the root of WHY. Sometimes I think I am female. Sometimes I just relish in dressing like one. The only constant is I usually hate being male.

This whole male/female question may be hormonal, cultural, environmental or none of the above. I don't even seek expalnation anymore. Just balance and self-acceptance would be enough for me.

[Sarah Doepner]

Speck,

Thank you for posting and making us think about more than the superficial aspect of what we do. It's true that much of our concern is with that surface, it's almost as we are setting the stage for a play and in many ways, that's it exactly. We are building an environment where it may be easier for those parts of our identity that are more feminine to come to the surface. We are attempting to modify our self-perception and how others interact with us, looking for a door to open just a crack and let something new (and maybe feminine) flow in to fill up spots in our worlds that are empty. For you may find that many of us might agree with what you write about women and what we are attempting to achieve. You wrote;

"We are extremely competitive, we are very aggressive, we have expectations placed on us that are just as impossible, we think very deeply, we pay attention to the nuances of relationships, we nurture, we fret...but the clothes and make up?"

I don't see anything there that is specifically feminine, and if these are not masculine or feminine aspects, maybe we are simply trying to be more fully human. I will never know what it was like to socialized as a young girl or the kinds of trauma a teenage girl faces on a daily basis with regard to body image, relationships and immediacy of emotions. What I can hope to do is find some ways to remove some of the barriers to that understanding and at least be able to recognize where my experience doesn't match my presentation. At least knowing what I'm missing will be better than being unaware that I'm not fully human, regardless of gender.

[Inna]

Ok I just read your post Speck and didn't the first one. I think honestly until we all understand the gender continuum we will not be able to pin point exactly whats what.
Which color green is the correct color, which is not but mere interpretation of green. In fact it is impossible to tell other than what we have been told by someone else that this is in fact "The Green".
Gender is just the same, as fluid as water in your tap, sometime we hear description of third gender which is really simplified form of explaining the gender flux. Absolutely, some of us are just having fun or are sexually driven just to please their drive however even those are still experiencing gender spectrum outside of societal norm. I would go as far as labeling every single human being having gender flux, gender identities composed of two distinct ingredients, feminine and masculine, weather man or a woman both are ever present. How they are mixed is still a scientific mystery but a known fact.
Our bodies instill a direction, for 99.9% of us it is no brainer who we are, even though for a large part of population whats within doesn't exactly match what's in the mirror, hence Gender Dysphoria. Coming to terms with infinitely fluid state of gender combined with a definite body representation makes for heck of a ride. Within, we all carry both sexes, outside just one, you tell me that is perfect?
From my own experience I drove my wife to oblivion being mothering my child in ways more motherly than she could. She would then have to become more of a father figure so the balance was preserved. I still hear her words, "you are much more of a mother I could ever be", to hear those words as a man is demurring, but I wasn't a man.
Yes I am as guilty of wanting to wear the feminine clothing to emphasize femininity, how else can you do it when not revealed! After my reveal and hormonal soup, clothing became so not important but being a feminine being in its entirety.
So, which green is really green :) ?

[Stephenie S]

Why I want to be a woman Part 2

Doesn't everyone?

Stephie

This is a common lack of understanding in our community.

The fact is that you can NEVER know what it's like to be another human being. I read posts that say things like, "Oh, I feel so "feminine" when I wear my heels and stockings to bed".

What?

Well first, women don't wear stockings and heels to bed. But second, and more important, no. You only know what it's like FOR YOU to wear stockings and heels to bed.

You can find out what it feels like for YOU to wear a dress. But that's all. Clothes don't make you feel anything except what it feels like to wear clothes. Clothes don't make you feminine.

If you are short you will never know what it's like to be tall. If you are a man, you will never know what it's like to be a woman. Successful transwomen KNOW they are female. Successful transmen KNOW they are male. They have no choice. They just are.

I asked above, somewhat tongue in cheek, "Doesn't everyone want to be a woman?" Evidently the answer is no. There are some men who LIKE being men. That's hard to understand for some of us. But being female is SO nice. And it has nothing to do with clothes.

So let's just be clear here. There is nothing wrong with crossdressing. It can be a LOT of fun. But it don't make you male or female. It's just fun. And complaining about those who do it is a waste of time.

S

[t-girlxsophie]

Speck made her point which to my mind was perfectly lucid and well thought out,but she got to one reply before she was told she was,anything but accepting,Tell her in your opinion she is wrong,or give reasons to change her opinion which to be fair most replies have done,but come on we demand respect,so lets not hate on someone because we may think their opinion is wrong,It does us no credit

[Kaitlyn Michele]

This is a common lack of understanding in our community.

The fact is that you can NEVER know what it's like to be another human being. I read posts that say things like, "Oh, I feel so "feminine" when I wear my heels and stockings to bed".

What?

Well first, women don't wear stockings and heels to bed. But second, and more important, no. You only know what it's like FOR YOU to wear stockings and heels to bed.

You can find out what it feels like for YOU to wear a dress. But that's all. Clothes don't make you feel anything except what it feels like to wear clothes. Clothes don't make you feminine.

If you are short you will never know what it's like to be tall. If you are a man, you will never know what it's like to be a woman. Successful transwomen KNOW they are female. Successful transmen KNOW they are male. They have no choice. They just are.

I asked above, somewhat tongue in cheek, "Doesn't everyone want to be a woman?" Evidently the answer is no. There are some men who LIKE being men. That's hard to understand for some of us. But being female is SO nice. And it has nothing to do with clothes.

So let's just be clear here. There is nothing wrong with crossdressing. It can be a LOT of fun. But it don't make you male or female. It's just fun. And complaining about those who do it is a waste of time.

S
great point...

pls read my post..i accept her opinion...i can't disagree with a word of what was said...i ACTUALLY SAID in the post i can't hate her for it...it's an opinion shared by many people...

what i said is that you can't have that point of view and call yourself accepting...especially of transsexuals.
it is not accepting to rub in the fact that even though i'm wired to exist as female, i can never experience many of the things that other women experience...really? gosh i didnt know that.

in reality i found the whole thing kinda mean...nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah style...you can never be a woman!! too bad for you!! that's about all i got out of it..
why the heck does she care whether i can experience being a woman the same way a gg does?? so i ask again..what is the point?

xsophie...pls read my post before you comment on it...

people said i shouldn't HATE her, but i specifically said i didn't hate anything...disagree all you want but DO NOT put words in my mouth..

somehow you feel its ok for you to disagree with me, but it's not ok for me to disagree with the OP?
somehow you feel that you can say whatever you want, but when i say what i want it does us no credit?? i call bs..

[Avana]

I basically agree with your points about socialization and how some TG people have a rather presumptuous view of femininity.

However, as a TG woman, I have to ask you a philosophical question:

Do YOU really know what it is like to be a 'woman'? I mean, how can you ever really know what it is like to be anything other than yourself? Surely you have many shared experiences with other females, but how do you know that every 'female' you identify with also identifies as female in the same way. How do you know 'woman' means the same thing to you as someone else, the same psychological meaning?

For years I pretended to know what it was like to be 'male', but the fact is I hadn't a clue. I only had my vague, socially inspired idea of what a male should be, and everyone around me trying to convince me that I should conform to it. All along I knew I was something else, and I've always only ever wanted to feel like 'myself'.

I am proud to be a transgender woman, with my own experience and story to tell, that is equally as valid and important as a 'woman's' or 'man's'. I don't think any transwoman should ever presume they know what it's like to be anything but themselves, nor do I think any woman or man for that matter should ever presume the same...


I also want to put this quote out (RuPaul)

"Honey, you're born naked. Everything else is drag."

[Cassandra Lynn]

If the OP was intended as to open discussion on the genetics, life experience of being a GG and all that then so be it, you can all dissect it till you turn blue. I have to agree with Kaitlyn though, what is the point.
Water is water and a rock is a rock, yipee skipee. What is the motivation here?
(Perhaps i should add in here that for those who need to transition, my reference of water and rocks was not meant in any disrespect).

Feel better now Speck?

[darla_g]

Interesting thread. I don't have a lot to add except that there is no single minded "this is what it is like to be female experience". As the expression goes your mileage may vary. There are women that are treated like goddesses and those that are abused and treated like subservient beings to men. Women can relate to other women in the same way or so it seems.

There are woman (GG) that are born and live without functioning female reproductive organs yet we don't consider them less of a woman.

I think ultimately it would be the goal of any TG woman to be related to and accepted as any regular woman (GG or otherwise).

Isn't that what we all want in life? acceptance for who we are and what we are?

[Cynthia Anne]

I appreciate what you have posted here! And for this I thank you! However, my doctor years ago said that there is a women living inside me! I thought he was nuts, until my 'shrink' explain it to me! I came to terms with this, and so here I am! Thank you! Hugs!

[Pink Person]

Passive aggressive much (he said in a whisper)?

I’m sympathetic toward some of the points made in the original post. Cisgender people and transgender people are different in many ways. Cismasculine, transmasculine, transfeminine, and cisfeminine people are all special types of people. However, there’s a tad too much indirect transfeminine bashing in the tone of the original post for my taste. Cisfeminine and transfeminine people are similar in significant ways. If you really wanted to take the high road then you would have paid some due respect to this fact.

[Julogden]

Hi Speck,

Please keep in mind that most of us have had to bury our feminine side deep within, and have had to hide behind a masculine facade for so long that it's hard let go of it or to unlearn some masculine ways. Letting down the "man" mask is hard to do when many people are very critical of those of us who embrace our femininity.

And you're probably right to say that we'll never be the same kind of woman as one who was born female and raised in a feminine gender identity, but some of us are transwomen, just a different variety of woman than you are, but no less a woman, not to confuse that with being female.

And just as we will never know what it's like to grow up female, you will never know the torment that those of us who are born into the wrong body go through. We too are victimized for being who we are. We have a long history of being the subject of ridicule and violence that continues to this day. In many (most?) parts of this country, it is completely legal to deny us access to services, employment or housing just because of prejudice. Every time we try to get a law passed that makes it illegal to deny us our basic human rights, we are opposed by multitudes of "good" people who want to be able to continue denying us our rights. In some parts of the world, things are even worse, we are currently imprisoned and executed for being who we are, with the blessing of "democratic" governments, as in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeMSiw8FhmE).

I agree that some here have some rather sexist ideas of what it is to be a woman/cisgendered female. They need to wake up and see that their faulty image of who women are is another form of oppression. But it sounds to me like you have some incorrect ideas about transgendered males too. You're painting with a very broad brush, and it seems that you're implying that we are the way that we are because something went wrong with us. That's pretty rude, dear.

Maybe you're here because you're struggling with accepting a husband or boyfriend who is trans, and it's great that you would make an effort to accept a partner's gender issues, but there's an underlying anger with and criticism of us that's coming through in your posting. It seems like you're implying that transwomen can never be real women, and that's very insulting, and wrong.

Carol

[carhill2mn]

Hi Speck. I don't think there is any reason to "crucify" you for expressing your honest opinion. You may have already learned that there is a very large diversity of members here thus, many opinons and situations.
IMHO part of the problem is that many do not know how to adequately express their feelings. Also, no one can know exactly how somone else feels as feelings are known only to the person feeling them. Also, words, terms, defintions, etc. are some what limited and can easily be misunderstood.
I have been a CD for over 60 years and really have no idea how it would feel to be a GW; I can only imagine, based upon many years of observation, much reading, etc. Personally, I try my best to emulate what I think a lady would do (and not all women are "ladies").

[Speck]

What's your point?

I'm sorry but you are not an accepting GG..can't hate you for your post though...lots of people feel the same way you do, and that attitude is a part what causes so much shame and guilt in the tg community

I fail to see what you find in my post that suggests I'm unaccepting.


Wow, there's so much in your opinion that lends itself to thoughtful consideration.

I think the most concise way to reply is, and of course this is speaking for myself, that while you point out that you cannot know what it is to be male, or to be TG, the way I feel each and every day is that I cannot really fathom what it is to be male because all I know is TG. My heart & soul are wired female, and it's fair to assume my brain is as well. This has served me well in relationships as well as career, having what I believe to be a true feminine perspective. I know nothing else, just as the average person out there cannot even fathom what it's like to have gender as an issue to varying degrees 24/7/365. I cherish my perspective despite the torment it brings to my entire being.

I respect your perspective. I think there are advantages to having a heart and soul that is female and enough of the male experience to understand the male psyche better than the average female. In society, I believe diversity is good. It makes for a richer world. Equally, I believe that diversity within one person makes for a richer individual.


I'll go ahead and disagree with Kaitlyn Michele, and say that I completely agree with our Ms. Speck. I find no fault at all in what she's saying. I see no denigration to TS people in her post, nor any insult to any crossdressing or transgendered people. She's hit upon an irrefutable point here: That genetically, males and females are different. This difference affects brain pattern. Many transgendered males, while desperately needing to transition or at least present female, still have the social and genetic engineering of the male brain. They had to live their early lives, at least, being brought up as males. Even a boy who is raised as a female still has the male engineering and thought patterns to deal with.

She's not dumping on anyone here. She's merely expressing a well-thought out point of view that has a ton of validity to it whether you like it or not.

Nope. She's right as rain here. You can hate on it all you want, but if you do, you're wrong.

Sophie....females thought patterns don't have to "leak out". They're just there. The fact that for you, it tends to "leak out", proves her point.

Sara, good point. Males cannot fathom the entire female experience, but non-transgendered people cannot fathom the TG experience either. I'll never know what it's like to be completely male or female. TG is all I've ever known.

Thank you TGMarla, The best we can do here is try to understand each other.


I look at the idea of a male "knowing" what it is like to be female the same way I would look at the idea of a human "knowing" what it is like to be a cat. The OP is voicing on of my main problems with our community.

We can only know the surface things about being a woman, the feel of the clothing, the look of the body in the mirror, and some, but not all of the social nonsense they put up with. In ways we put up with a different flavor of that nonsense....namely pure hate.

But we will NEVER know the pains of pre menstral syndrome, nor the pain or joy of child birth. We will never really know much about the effects of hormones because even if we take hormones we have our male biology to base the effects off of, whereas women are born with that. On the flip side a woman can never really and truly know how it is to be male. Once again she can get very very close, but never know the whole picture.

To the second poster telling the op that she is not accepting. That was just wrong. You don't know her, for all you know she could be a very wonderful person that understands our plight better than most GGs.

Speck, I do have to say though, the "we think deeper" and such is a tad bit sexist, and untrue. My GG is certainly not thinking things through which keeps getting her into a lot of trouble. She is not all that competitive (frankly I think a lot of competitive is something that needs to be trimmed in our culture), aggressive is also another trait of humans I feel needs to be lessened. Those traits you mentioned are neither male nor female. They are just that which we are told are male and female by dumb masses.

My apologies, Pythos. I didn't actually mean that men don't think deeply. I have studied the difference between the sexes from a clinical perspective for a very long time. It is difficult to point them out without making generalizations or stereotyping. I know that I spent many years being a feminist and insisting that there was no difference between the sexes. I have come to understand that I was wrong. But I believe the differences between male and female are minimal compared to what we have in common.


Speck,
I agree with you to an extent. I have been going to a therapist moving on to my transition to a woman hopefully later this year. It has occurred to me several times over the last year that while we can all live our lives as close to be the woman we feel and know we are inside there is a part of life we will or have never lived. Growing up with a sister and having all daughters (3), along with seeing the women at work, I know there are many things us transsexuals will not have experienced. some of which is bearing children and the many difficulties facing bias that women are not equal to men but are expected to play a different role in society. I am not crucifying you at all and understadn your point. The thing with at least me is that this has been a conflict I have lived with for as long as I can remember and if I had a choice back then I would have expereiced all of these (except for child birth), that you are i think referring to. I think we who are transitioning need to respect that there are some differences, however i think that once we begin a serious path towards becoming our true selves than we do in fact experience a great deal of challenges. I red in one of the posts on a different site that the work place needs to understand that a person who transitions is no less a person. This is because of the many challenges they face. If they complete the transition it means they are a strong individual who can really face adversity and still come through it. In that since we women of late are the same but as in every case in our lives we have to respect the accomplishments and challenges of how each person as individuals have had to face. Thank you for the post. It made me think again about the things my wife has had to face and how my being a woman relates to her past versus our future together with me as a woman.
Jaycee

Sharee, I admire your strength. And I believe you'll find some comfort in having your outside match the inside. I hope that all the people in your life understand and respect what you're doing. I know I do.

[Sharon]

With the seemingly endless variety of females in the world -- personalities, perspectives, experiences, etc. -- I'm not certain what it is I can never be. I am transsexual and as far as I am aware I am as female as anyone out there, though I wish my body was more in sync with the rest of my being. My brain and heart tell me I am female, and the cause is irrelevant at this stage in my life, but it has little or nothing to do with clothing or makeup. What else is there? How do you personally know what being female is other than what you know in your heart or in what you learned? That's what I share with you.

True, genetically I will never be a complete woman, but genes are oftentimes screwed up for many people in all sorts of ways. God (or who or what have you) just F's up sometimes, y'know?

[juno]

Obviously, someone that is not born, raised, and living as a female can never experience the "whole package" of being female. However, most GGs are probably not 100% female either. I think it is reasonable for a TS to claim that they are "being a woman" even if there is no way to be "100% woman". Most people wouldn't tell a GG that they can't be a woman if they were raised as a boy, or if they were born without a uterus. It just comes down to how picky you want to be in defining a woman.

[Mary Morgan]

I'm going to hate myself in the morning but here goes my two cents. You may be right Speck but I doubt it, I just do not believe in absolutes. But assuming that you are right, so what? Are you saying that no one born male can ever be as female thinking and acting as any one born female? Does this include those males in our society that have been clinically diagnosed with gender dysphoria at a very early age and were socialized as female by thoughtful and caring parents? Do all women believe as you do? "We are extremely competitive, we are very aggressive, we have expectations placed on us that are just as impossible, we think very deeply, we pay attention to the nuances of relationships, we nurture, we fret...but the clothes and make up?" Sounds like a lot of males I know, but mostly in sounds like a lot of people I know. Time to get back to my superficial existence.

[Speck]

Hi Speck,

I agree that some here have some rather sexist ideas of what it is to be a woman/cisgendered female. They need to wake up and see that their faulty image of who women are is another form of oppression. But it sounds to me like you have some incorrect ideas about transgendered males too. You're painting with a very broad brush, and it seems that you're implying that we are the way that we are because something went wrong with us. That's pretty rude, dear.

Carol

Rudeness was not my intent. I don't know if something "went wrong" for TGs or if something went wrong in a society that has rigid views on gender expression. But hopefully, we can agree that the kind of torment you have experienced as a transwoman is wrong.

[busker]

Marla, I'm addressing MY surpression. Obviously, they're just there. It doesn't prove her point. It does the opposite. How are my female thought patterns that I can't stop an indication of my ALL MALE thought patterns she's asserting. I'm lost.
Don't take offense here, but how can your PROVE this. How exactly do you KNOW that you have female thought patterns since you can't be in the mind of a genetic female to know what patterns of thought they have after being socialized as a female? You can't base this on your INTERPRETATION of what you think women think. I have no doubt that you do feel different from other non-tg males, but you have no way of proving your assertion, but I do accept it.

Speck, I'm generally with you on this, though as I've just said, I do think that TGs do have some thought shifts that are not entirely male..

[Byanca]

Like a black man can never know what it's like to be a white man?

Or an ugly woman can never know what it's like to be a pretty woman?

Or a low woman can never know what it's like to be a tall woman?

Or a a rich person can never know what it's like to have been born poor?

--
Perhaps. It's all just experiences though. I like diversity. Makes the group more interesting.



I personally know someone who says she feels all woman on the inside and indeed when all dressed up, looks as female as I do. And to tell her that I see so many of her behaviours as male seems to be an insult to her. I don't mean it as an insult because men and women may behave differently but I don't think one is more wrong or right than the other.

You shouldn't do that. It's rude. Keep it to yourself. It's akin to me telling a black man that he is black, and ask if he is aware of this fact.

[Kate Simmons]

Your thoughts and feelings seem okay to me Hon.:)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I fail to see what you find in my post that suggests I'm unaccepting.

well answer my question...what was the point of the post?

i'll answer your question.. i can't disagree with your words..but the only point i see in writing it is that for some reason you want to make it clear to crossdressers and transsexuals that we don't know what its really like, and will never know what its really like to be a woman...

over the years, you see stories online about tg issues...read the message boards...they are filled with hatred and nastiness...the nastiest ones say things like..."you cant cut your dick off and say your a woman!! LOL"...
the nicer ones say 'oh those poor confused souls...deluded into thinking they are women".....how is your post different than the latter?

[Julogden]

Rudeness was not my intent. I don't know if something "went wrong" for TGs or if something went wrong in a society that has rigid views on gender expression. But hopefully, we can agree that the kind of torment you have experienced as a transwoman is wrong.

Good, I hoped it wasn't intended to be rude, glad that it was inadvertent. I feel that the problem is indeed with culture/society. Humans are by nature extremely variable beings, that's why we've populated the planet almost from pole to pole in almost all extremes of climate, if one person doesn't like a given spot, someone who does like it will come along eventually and call it home.

Every time a new human is conceived, the genetic dice are thrown and a new, unique being results, and a fair amount of the time, that new being is gender variant, just a normal part of the population, but it seems that many people can't grasp that we're to be expected in every society and that there's nothing wrong with us.

Thanks,
Carol

[charlie]

Hello Speck!
Of course you are correct! How could I ever know what it is really like to be, think like and experience being a woman? I've been a man all my life. So I simply study the woman I know and try to be like them, talk like them, walk like them and behave like them. It is the best that I can do.

[sometimes_miss]

A few thoughts. Femininity and masculinity has a different range of definitions for different people. I don't think crossdressing is 'always testosterone driven and/or fetishistic' either; for some people it is, for some people, it's not. There is so much variety in who and what we are, that it's difficult to define us by one characteristic, in this case, crossdressing. But we still all like to be able to define, for ourselves, who and what we are, and that's where the problem comes in, because other people feel the need to define us in their minds so that they know how to relate to us. After all, the very first question when we are born is 'is it a boy or a girl?', because this will forever determine how others will see us and behave with us, no matter what or who else we become in our lives.
I don't make any claim to know 100% what it is like to be a woman. Then again, with my upbringing, I don't know what it's like to be 100% man either, because so much of my life was spent growing up expecting to become a girl.
I think that there are far too many assumptions made by people, who base those assumptions solely upon what they, themselves feel and have experienced. I know that it's a natural tendency to project our beliefs onto others, because humans want to feel that there are others who feel the same way we do. But that unfortunately causes a huge amount of misunderstandings because, well, we aren't all alike. We are different from each other, sometimes in lots of ways, sometimes in a few, but very rarely do any two people feel the same about everything.
As far as how we're 'wired' physically and how much that determines our thoughts and behavior, well, an interesting fact is that we can learn to do things differently, and we can learn how to think differently (though, to be honest, it's only a very small percentage of the population that makes any effort to do that as far as trying to learn how the opposite gender operates and thinks). It's not always easy; and it surely doesn't always come naturally; hormonal influences (aggression in males due to testosterone, and mood swings and changes in who she's attracted to during different phases in her monthly cycle in women, for two examples) can make it extremely difficult for us to learn how to behave in a way that is natural for the opposite physical sex person.
But it can be done.
Now, I'm not going to tell you that I know everything about what it's like to be a girl. That's simply impossible. But I can observe, learn, and know, an awful lot about it.
Because men, and women, are more alike than we are different.
Bottom line; in a truly advanced civilization, we will not be told by anyone that we can't do something, or that something is innappropriate for us to do, based on what physical sex we are.
Despite the human species belief that we are intelligent and advanced life forms, we aren't even remotely close. We are still barbaric and very much like animals the vast majority of the time.

And, BTW, Avana, I loved this one: "Honey, you're born naked. Everything else is drag."

[Proteus]

I have no idea what it's like to be another man, so naturally I can't fathom what it's like to be a woman. There is never a simple explanation for being transgendered, and I would be careful drawing conclusions from endocrinology, neurology, genetics, etc.

[2SpeedTranny]

I just don't think that all the feminine inner feelings and all the feminine clothes put together account for everything it takes to be a woman. I think there's some female wiring in the brain that is just different from the male wiring and all the SRS can't change it.


That... and heck, the rest of your post... impeccable, irrefutable logic. Logic, we're told, that is the domain of the male, and not of the female... but I think you and quite a number of replies to this thread have proved that to be a myth. ;)

[Jessica86]

You don't see why some of us think you are unaccepting? "As an alternative to suicide.". Wow. I am a a cd, and I have no hard feelings about tg people. I would say what I feel, but it would get me banned from the site. Its people like you that drive those people to suicide. Uneducated, stubborn, and set on views set in the sixties. You aren't the one under the knife so you can't hate on them for it. I support anyone making that decision. I will never do it, but I support those who do.

[Tanya C]

Rather than crucify you I would like to do some sort of mind fusion with you to help you understand the psyche of a trangendered person. Perhaps you would realize that to many of us our feminine experience is quite real. Not all of us are just men playing dress up.
I'm not even a transexual, I'm just a crossdresser, but to me my female side is just as real and fundamentally important to my personality as my male side is.
Not all crossdressing is a result of male driven activities, for some of us it's simply one of the ways the woman inside expresses herself.

[ashlylynn]

Hi, I'm a gg ...
I also am a gg

I just finished reading all the posts in response to "Why do I want to be a woman?" and what struck me is that neither a CD, a TG or a TS can ever know what it is to be born with a female physical form,
true

a female gender identity
likely wrong
and to be socialized as female.
very true

Some of you may have some physical features that are more female than male but there are physical features of being male that are in the wiring of the brain.
these are called hormonal process - and it changes when hormones change naturally ( as we age to senoirs - eg. less sex drive - or artificially

Some of you have an identity that is more female than male but none of us will ever know what portion that identity might still be male because we can't really measure it. Nor do you know what portion of your identity is female

And few of you have been socialized as female.
that part I agree with totally, since the boys only have a fantasy about it - unless they had sisters and their eyes and ears worked

I can understand that you want your physical form to match your more female inate traits but when you judge that the female role in our society has less expectations differentplaced on it or that it's ok for us to be softer, or that we're less competitive or aggressive, I'd ask you to think again.

We were only to be competitive and aggressive amongst outselves, until inventors made washing machines, tampons ...and pants for women.

I don't for one minute think that I understand what it's like to male, nor do I think I understand what it's like to be transgendered. But I think a mix up of hormones can cause someone with the male form to feel and act more feminine. Or even eating whole grains which cause both an insuline and estrogen spike because our body was only meant to digest fruits, vegatables without issue, and secondarily meats ( note our canine teeth ) since no industrial processing was required to consume them

Depending on the amount of hormone mix up, it can lead a genetic male
wrong - you're acually talking about things on the DNA level now. You can be born with a vagina and have MALE DNA and be precluded from competitive sport - in fact, you can have a mix of BOTH male and female DNA. Compicated, eh?

to either be a fetish CD, a man who finds crossdressing as a way to relieve stress


or a man who feels (knows) she's a woman trapped in the male form. That would be a woman, regardless of DNA. Not my idea - just tellin' ya.


However, I believe the male brain is different from the female brain in ways that go beyond hormones
and you base your belief on what exactly? I know a lot of sissy boys who def think very female
but know they are male. Likewise, I know one or two ggs who think and act very male, but are straight
and know they are female.

and the impact of the way a woman is socialized goes beyond the understanding of one who is socialized as male.
againt, agree - but there are many things that socialize us beyond how to shop - and many have been closely monitored by the TS girls because they were interested in the matters - unlike the man's man who ran away whenever someone even mentions mensruation, baking, shopping, clothes, babies, etc

I mean no disrespect to those who have decided to transition
wouldn't matter if you did - you're obviously not qualified to speak on the matter. lol

because I truly believe that for many, it is the right thing to do so that the outside can match the inside more closely.

But I think more closely is all you get and if it's worth all the trade offs you might need to make, or if you feel it's the only alternative to suicide, I'm all for it.

Suicide? Kinda like how you'll feel if you need to have a double-mastectomy someday? That is - one ( err ...two of the things which give you your value and identity as a woman will be gone - maybe then you'll understand why what you've written here is hogwash - though we'd never WISH that upon you.


But for the vast majority who are here talking about clothes and make up, projecting their thoughts on feminity, the female psyche and the female experience and all the connections you all make to the physical act of sex, well I see it as more testosterone than any real connection to someone who is female on the inside and the outside.

Well you're RIGHT. MOST of the CD members here are CD - not TS. They know they are men. They just PLAY girl - and of course most would love to have a day as a woman with a ( beautiful ) woman's body and face - and of course not on a day with hideous cramps, yeast infection or when they need to do build something.


I personally know someone who says she feels all woman on the inside and indeed when all dressed up, looks as female as I do. And to tell her that I see so many of her behaviours as male seems to be an insult to her. I don't mean it as an insult because men and women may behave differently but I don't think one is more wrong or right than the other. I just don't think that all the feminine inner feelings and all the feminine clothes put together account for everything it takes to be a woman. True. You must also not know when to shut up.

I think there's some female wiring in the brain that is just different from the male wiring and all the SRS can't change it.
Your friend may not pass the requirements for SRS - so - please don't formulate your belief system based on one DUDE who likes to pretend he's a chick.

We are extremely competitive, we are very aggressive, with each other we have expectations placed on us that are just as impossible, that's true - but we often achieve the impossible we think too deeply about things that really don't matter very much and that we don't understand very well , we pay attention to the nuances of relationships and ruin them we nurture, overprotect we fret about nothing if there is nothing to fret about

...but the clothes and make up? To me, they are just as irrelevant to life as chasing a ball around a field. Bullshit! lol How much money have you spent on cosmetics, hairdos, cloths in just the past year - so that you could look presentable for other FEMALES? ( because unless you're LOOKING for a male - they don't care what you look like, apparently. lol

If you like clothes and make up, or enjoy playing sports, go for it. You have one life to live, live it in any way that makes you happy.

But please, don't fool yourself into thinking that you are a woman 100% or that you understand the female experience 100%.
Please, don't fool yourself into thinking that you know what you are talking about, just because you think it is that way - without any scientific study and based solely on the case or two that you know about.

Leave room for doubt when you describe what femininity is.
Leave room for doubt when you describe what transgerderism is - and for gawd sake - understand that Crossdressing and Transgenderism are two completely different things - and there is a big grey area in between.

[AllieSF]

Wow, thanks Ashlylynn for the great "other" GG opinion on all this T stuff. I agree with some of the things that Speck wrote, but prefer and agree more with your explanation and rebuttal, where inserted, much better.

[Rianna Humble]

I just finished reading all the posts in response to "Why do I want to be a woman?" and what struck me is that neither a CD, a TG or a TS can ever know what it is to be born with a female physical form, a female gender identity and to be socialized as female.
...
However, I believe the male brain is different from the female brain in ways that go beyond hormones and the impact of the way a woman is socialized goes beyond the understanding of one who is socialized as male.
...
I think there's some female wiring in the brain that is just different from the male wiring and all the SRS can't change it

It is one of my lasting regrets that my body does not conform to my self-image. You are right that I will never know what it would have been like to be born with a body that corresponds to my gender. Neither will I know what it would have been like to be socialised as female whilst growing up. However, you are wrong if you believe that I cannot know what it is like to have a female gender identity - in my case, I cannot know what it is like to have a male gender identity since I have never had one.

You are right that the male brain is different to the female brain in ways that go beyond responses to hormones, but are you aware of the studies that tend to show that an MtF transsexual's brain has more in common with a cisgendered female brain than with a cisgendered male brain (and vice versa for the FtM)?

I have a great admiration for those TS's who were able to play out the role of a male to the extent of getting married and raising children - I know that this was impossible for me. I am told that children relate well to me, but I will never know the joy of having my own children.

Again you are right to say that GRS will not change my brain - in my case what it will do is to align my physical appearance to my true gender. Unfortunately, the only way that we can prove whether I genuinely have a female brain is to dissect it and I am not too keen to have that done whilst I am still alive.

Two years ago, I came very close to providing the opportunity for that to be done, but decided that there was more future in living.

There are many things of the female experience that I have been deprived of by having the wrong body. About the only thing that I do know 100% is that I don't know anything 100%.

Not quite sure why you want me to crucify you

[Speck]

Ashlynn,
I know we're just dealing with text here and you and I may have different definitions for a variety of labels, but to show you how easy it is to misunderstand, I've cut and past the first example:
"I just finished reading all the posts in response to "Why do I want to be a woman?" and what struck me is that neither a CD, a TG or a TS can ever know what it is to be born with a female physical form,
true"
a female gender identity
likely wrong
and to be socialized as female.
very true"

You rated three things with a true or wrong individually. Those 3 things were joined by an "and" meaning all three things together.

I don't pretend to know what it's like to be transgendered because my body, my identity and my socialization are all (3) female. I'm here reading everyone's experience to try to understand being TG'd better. Some posts (not all) make me feel misunderstood. I'm not transgendered because I sometimes wear pants. In fact those who attempt to convince GGs that they too are transgendered, in my opinion mimize the difficulties many TGs and TSs have experienced. I haven't had a carefree life because I'm female. That's not to say that I don't understand how dressing in female clothes can be relaxing for a TG. The way I understand it is that when dressed as female they don't have to do the work of putting on an artificially constructed male persona. But as a GG, I don't feel my life is "easier".

There were many who understood my point. I think you've missed the forest for the trees.

[Avana]

there's been all this talk about women wearing pants being cross-dressing or showing signs of transgender identity -

it's neither.

the difference is history made pants come to women, and in the case of transgender people, it is those trans individuals who have come to the pants, so to speak (or the skirts, or whatever is the 'other' gender tagged article of clothing, behavior, mannerism, etc, etc)

in other words, gender is on a more environmental level, a social consciousness like a tide that changes. if you're swimming with that current, or riding that wave, you're not transgender, which means to go against the direction of 'normal' (main current) gender expression, which in most cultures is assigned at birth based on visual sexual cues, and then indoctrinated throughout life.