That dreaded P word.

[Katesback]

Ok so I see the P word used all too often even in CD forum and of all places here.

Look up the definition of P_ _ _ and you will see that one of the primary definitions is to basically present something that is not real or to decieve.

Now if you are a woman then why would you use that word?

I NEVER use that damm word. How about your presentation or appearance or anything but the P word!!!!!!!

Katie

[Zenith]

Yeah I'd like to pass as a natal woman with no baggage or past, but I'm not...hell even Kim Petras has to pass so be realistic...

[Eryn]

Words don't always have the exact meaning that is attributed to them in the dictionary and in a specialized group the meaning of the word can be considerably different. To most in this forum that word simply means "to be accepted and treated as a woman."

A humorous example of how a word may have different meanings to different groups is evident in this joke about how the different military services respond to the order "Secure the building."

The Army will post guards around the place.
The Navy will turn out the lights and lock the doors.
The Marines will kill everybody inside and set up a headquarters
The Air Force will take out a 5 year lease with an option to buy.

[CharleneT]

I'm learning to hate that term too. Hear's my take, the more you try to P_ _ _, the less it will work. These days I'm too busy most of the time to even think about it. I work two jobs and I am reasonably social. In either job I encounter a fair number of people. Depending on the night, in my hospital work, I interact with around 50 nurses/docs/unit clerks/etc, with another 20 or so on the phone. On a really busy night, you can double those numbers :doh: I just can't remember to P_ _ _ all the time -- it's too tiring to do that! So, I just "be me" and see how the ball bounces ;)

[Sharon]

As has been stated or implied elsewhere, passing (aka: the P--- word) is much easier when you learn to stop trying so hard to do so. Anyway, I never bother asking people I encounter every day whether I am passing or not -- nor does the thought even occur to me any longer -- so my success or lack thereof can not be truly ascertained.

One thing I am quite certain of, however --I pass as myself very well.:battingeyelashes:

[Persephone]

Oh Geez, Kate! I hate when you do this.

First of all, you are quibbling semantics and I'm anti-semantic.

As Eryn wrote, "in a specialized group the meaning of the word can be considerably different. To most in this forum that word simply means "to be accepted and treated as a woman."

Secondly, our language simply isn't up to conveying some of the concepts that we as CD/TG/TS folks are trying to express.

That's why we end up with convoluted concepts like "yesterday I went out dressed, but today "he" is out working on the car."

And why we make up our own words and phrases like Marcia Sampson/Staylace (OBM) did when she originally used the terms "en femme" and "en drab."

And why we use terms like "passing" to mean what we want them to mean for our little corner of the world.

Now, that said, yes, I most definitely see your real point, which lies beyond the simplicity of language, and we're probably in very close agreement since, when I'm out-and-about, I AM a woman, not some second class simulacrum of one.

But our sisters and brothers here cover a wide range of perceptions and experiences, from panty wearers to men in dresses to . . . a whole lot of shades and variations. And common uses of standard terms just don't fit one and all, so we continue on a quest for language just as we continue on a quest for ourselves.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[RADER]

OK; It sounds to me like what is the meaning.
1.......Polish..........the Country
2.......Polish..........Your Car
A Body wants to know witch way is it?
Rader

[gretchen2]

I do not know how much I have used the P word on this website, but for me it is a self esteem issue, do I pass today, did I shave close enough, is my hair on straight, am I filling out my bra ok, do I look like i belong at the carnival, nothing against carnival folk of course. Some if not all of these thoughts run through my head on occasion, but the minute I leave the mirror behind I forget about all of that and go on with my day. Unfortunately I was born in a male body and I am only in the beginning stages of transition so every thing has to be just right, (not perfect). So in conclusion I would agree with you Kate. Lets change the word, presentation or appearance works for me on two levels, it will minimize the self esteem issue, and it will no longer be a question on who I am.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

now Kate you are trying to hard..it's rarely used here.

anti semantic?? That is too funny..

[CarlaWestin]

Unless I have hours of prep time to put it all together, P___ is just for gas. I'm quite happy most of the time being out and about as a guy in heels with big boobs.

[ReineD]

I wonder if the question of whether someone p_ _ _ es or not has to do with how much they've altered their appearance in terms of having begun electrolysis or HRT. I should think it would take on greater importance to someone who is in the beginning of the transition process than when she is farther along? Also, people have different natural physiognomies and I wonder if it is more of an issue for someone with more prominent male features (height, musculature, jaw, forehead for example) than others?

[Dawn D.]

I NEVER use that damm word. How about your presentation or appearance or anything but the P word!!!!!!!

Katie


Yes, I fully agree! But let's add another noun to the mix; attitude. I think with inclusion of all three you get a complete melding of your effort to marry into your gender identity.



Dawn

[Jessinthesprings]

I don't think Passing is apperance or presentation. You can't peg it as one thing or another. You may look just like a genetic woman/man in a photograph but if your movemnts are incorrect you will be seen as gender you are fleeing. I mean if you lumber into a room presenting as a woman and your knuckles are dragging upon the floor people are going to spot you... And conversly if all your movements and voice was spot on but you had a goatee, and deep voice you will be outed as well.

Passing is putting everything in place, the physical, and the mental, and is a quantitative statment of how well one is doing. Some things we can effect, such as voice and movement, and others we canno,t such as height and bone structure. It is everything that makes up your desired gender that allows you to or not to pass. Some will never achive it, others to some degree, and a few will pass so well that they will go stealth.

While, I am no scholar on the origins the word in the trans community I would guess it was first used as a way to define ones ability to pass (like passing a class with an A) the scrutany of others. What other word is possible? Perhaps assimilate? It seems to be more concise since one is assimilating all ascpects and making it their own.

[Jennifer Sophia]

I hate to say it, but thats the one thing I fear the most and a major hang up for me, is passing. I know I shouldn't care what people say or think, but its something I can't get over yet. Granted I think it takes sometime to overcome that fear, and I have only been dealing with this for 4 months or so.

[JohnH]

I say passing is what you do on a two lane road to go around a slower driver. That's all.

Johanna

[Zenith]

"...I should think it would take on greater importance to someone who is in the beginning of the transition process than when she is farther along?...

Actually it's becoming the opposite for me early post-op, and I am not atypical. When I first transitioned I figured passing was out of my control or ability. So I just tried to relax and be myself. Now that I'm looking at new relationships with people that never knew "that guy" it's something I think about more. I want people to see Julie and not a transsexual. I need to be just another woman with the natal women. And I need guys dating me to see me as a woman.

So as arrogant and superficial as it may seem, passing is becoming a concern. I don't know, maybe it's just a phase brought on by some recent setbacks and blows to my self confidence. Thing is, I would hope whether passing or not people will just judge me as...me. A quirky but terrific person. At least I hope...

At any rate the secret probably is to be busy living your life, not think about it, and it naturally comes. Particularly with time on hormones and getting surgeries behind you. I know a few post-op women that have been doing that for many years and to be honest...I couldn't even clock them...and they don't seem at all concerned with it anymore...

[Kiera79]

I understand what it is to P___(lol) but I don't care if I do or not. I do what I do for me and my satisfaction and no one else. When I look in the mirror I see me as the beautiful person I feel I am on the inside. Here is a P work Phuck what every one else thinks and keep it moving.

[CharleneT]

. . .

So as arrogant and superficial as it may seem, passing is becoming a concern. I don't know, maybe it's just a phase brought on by some recent setbacks and blows to my self confidence. Thing is, I would hope whether passing or not people will just judge me as...me. A quirky but terrific person. At least I hope...

At any rate the secret probably is to be busy living your life, not think about it, and it naturally comes. Particularly with time on hormones and getting surgeries behind you. I know a few post-op women that have been doing that for many years and to be honest...I couldn't even clock them...and they don't seem at all concerned with it anymore...

I do not think it is arrogent at all Or superficial !!! I *think* most people post-op just want to live their lives and be left pretty much to themselves.

In my experience, you can get to the point of not thinking about "it", and therefore P___ works better. Why, I'm not sure. But, my experiences and opinions are notably still pre-op and so not so useful for this discussion - BUT - I personally am finding the discussion quite valuable.

[ReineD]

If I were a transwoman, I'd want to live my life as if I had been born a genetic female. I don't think I'd want any parts of me to give off male cues ... unless I was in a highly creative environment such as the postmodern NYC art scene of the 70s/80s, where being trans would have been celebrated! But, the people who form movements like these are a part of a very small world.

The word "passing" is not adequate to describe the life I would wish to lead. I think "having become" is a much better term. :)

"Passing" is rather what TSs aspire to while they are on the path to "having become"? So Kate, why would you want to put down people who are at the very beginning of their journeys, and for whom getting past the male gender cues is still a concern?

[Felicity71]

Pass is an acceptable term. It describes adecquately what has been acheived. To pass a test. The test is whatever the transgendered individual considers it to be.

[Aprilrain]

After having spent a week in boy mode, for reasons that I won't bore you with, I can unequivocally say I can't wait to get back to trying my level best to pass as a woman! But thats just it i do what i can then go about my day. I can never really know if i pass or not since i dont stop to ask people if they "know my secret". And at this point in my transtion i just assume i dont pass and go from there. On the flip side while I still "pass" for male i certainly dont blend in. I wear MY clothes which are all marketed to females, my hair is a bit longish and i usually have chipping nail polish on my nails, add in the subtle femminie mannerisims i no longer try to hide and Im sure that i am judged to be a gay man since most people dont have the first clue about TGism.

[Sejd]

Katesback
I read your line: Now if you are a woman then why would you use that word? and I wonder, if you feel you are such a woman, why do you bother getting upset about what's going on in this forum???? This is the place where we all work out our issues, our struggle and our victories. I just don't get why you are so upset about everything other people write or say since we all are trying our best to navigate this issue??????

[morgan51]

I know I don't pass and may never, but I am happy today just where I am, and will be content with "patient progress". I heard that line elswhere and it truly applies to my t self. Nice to have a place to read about things that are always on my mind.

[PetiteDuality]

I use the P word in sentences as often as I used the word "levitation".

Almost never, because these are things I don't do.

[7sisters]

"patient progress".

Patient progress has such a lovely ring to it. Each to his own. I guess.

[Katesback]

I never said I was upset. You simply assumed. I have far more real life things that could make me upset that this forum. I am mearly here to try to help a very small few people here that are serious. Using the P word is not the best choice and it is as simple as that. My choice of words are mearly for impact and to get some people to think.


Katie





Katesback
I read your line: Now if you are a woman then why would you use that word? and I wonder, if you feel you are such a woman, why do you bother getting upset about what's going on in this forum???? This is the place where we all work out our issues, our struggle and our victories. I just don't get why you are so upset about everything other people write or say since we all are trying our best to navigate this issue??????

[gretchen2]

Kate the one thing that I have noticed about you is that you really do get people to think, and that's a good thing. I like different points of view, it can help with the growth process.

[dawnmarrie1961]

Katie, It is just a word that is used by idiots to obtain a response. It derives its meaning from how it is taken. Refuse to allow it to control your actions and its meaning is nullified, it has no power over you.
You are better than a mere word.

[Avana]

just for some background, the term "pass" originated in the pre-stonewall lgbt scene, and was used then to mean lesbians or gays who fit into the world as straight members of society.


the term is a synonym for 'cower' or 'hide' IMO.

it's one of the things that takes away our collective voice as transpeople, by rendering us invisible and dividing the community.

[kellycan27]

just for some background, the term "pass" originated in the pre-stonewall lgbt scene, and was used then to mean lesbians or gays who fit into the world as straight members of society.


the term is a synonym for 'cower' or 'hide' IMO.

it's one of the things that takes away our collective voice as transpeople, by rendering us invisible and dividing the community.

You go girl! Beat that drum, wave that flag! Be a transsexual.............................. forever! :heehee:

[ReineD]

just for some background, the term "pass" originated in the pre-stonewall lgbt scene, and was used then to mean lesbians or gays who fit into the world as straight members of society.

the term is a synonym for 'cower' or 'hide' IMO.

it's one of the things that takes away our collective voice as transpeople, by rendering us invisible and dividing the community.


You go girl! Beat that drum, wave that flag! Be a transsexual.............................. forever! :heehee:

Oh, c'mon you two! I'll play the devil's advocate by saying that neither of you have to worry about it! :) You're both young and pretty, and neither of you have prominent male features! It's no wonder you need not worry about passing (= not being mistaken for a man the minute you step out the door by everyone).

Sadly, this isn't the case for some others. :sad:

[Avana]

Oh, c'mon you two! I'll play the devil's advocate by saying that neither of you have to worry about it! :) You're both young and pretty, and neither of you have prominent male features! It's no wonder you need not worry about passing (= not being mistaken for a man the minute you step out the door by everyone).

Sadly, this isn't the case for some others. :sad:

well that's what I'm saying... passing is not only not the most important part of the trans experience, but when we are so concerned about passing as the ultimate goal, we give credence to the notion that there are only two acceptable genders, and we render our unique experience invisible and so we remain powerless against the forces who attempt to malign us.

about passing - i have some female attributes, but i am above 6' and definitely have some voice work to do... ;) In the end it's not about passing for me, but about surpassing.

[kellycan27]

Reine
Awww I was just teasin.. ( note the giggle at the end of the sentence) That being said.. I do agree that passing may not be the holy graile for us transsexuals, but for those who would like to lead a somewhat quite, obscure life, or those who want to experience what life has to offer while being treated just like everyone else.... passing isn't a bad thing.

[ReineD]

well that's what I'm saying... passing is not only not the most important part of the trans experience, but when we are so concerned about passing as the ultimate goal, we give credence to the notion that there are only two acceptable genders, and we render our unique experience invisible and so we remain powerless against the forces who attempt to malign us.

You've got a good point for someone who can pull it off! :) For a TS (or a CD) to be successful at it, she'd have to at least have a natural androgynous look (and it helps to be young), or natural good looks, don't you think? Picture a John Wayne type with prominent brow, square jaw, thick neck, thin lips, football shoulders, huge nose, gorilla arms, (OK, I'm exaggerating) and put her in a dress. If she doesn't want to be taken as a guy in a dress, she'd be concerned about doing what she can to at least look more androgynous, no?

[TerryTerri]

I'm gonna take my tongue in cheek stab at his.

I think MtF's can be usefully divided into 3 catagories. 1. the linebacker, John Wayne types that have such strong manly physical characteristics that being perceived as a physical female is almost impossible. 2. The gals who basically pass, but who still have distinct male features that with close observation, suggest they were once pyscially male. 3, The gals with such strong female physical charateristics that even when told they were once a pysical male, the average person would reply with "no frickin way!"

Case 1 folks, I can see passibility being a true concern and desire. Just being able to be in public without the extra attention there gender confused looks give oof wouldbe a very desired thing to possess.

Case 2 folks, need to relax. Many females have male physical charateristics, and the average anonymous person is not really going to notice or unduly care. I thin statistically most of us fall into this catagory.

Case 3 gals, well they really don't have much of a clue the anguish that not passing can create in one of us, unless in an earlier stage of transition they were not in this catagory.

My thoughts about how important it is to pass. It depends upon how well you do pass as to how important it is to you. Sort of like the old joke about the similarity of sex and air. Niether has much attention paid to them unless you are not getting any!

[Stephenie S]

You know? I just hate that word.

S

[ReineD]

You know? I just hate that word.

I don't blame you ... at all levels. :)

But what gets me are the people for whom the notion of having to p--- is distasteful (because of their transition) and who put down others for whom it is still an issue. Wasn't the p-----g a concern for you at some point in the past?

[Avana]

I don't blame you ... at all levels. :)

But what gets me are the people for whom the notion of having to p--- is distasteful (because of their transition) and who put down others for whom it is still an issue. Wasn't the p-----g a concern for you at some point in the past?

it's always an issue for every transperson to some degree. even if you have the 'look', trans history affects everyone. and whether or not you're trans, everyone has body issues and questions their self image to a degree. I'm 6'4" without shoes, and there's nothing I can do about that. It's not about passing, it's about being yourself and being happy with yourself regardless if you meet society's standards for what gender should be.

[Carole Cross]

having mostly masculine features, passing used to be a real issue for me. It's one of the main reasons why it took me so long to transition. I know that most people who see me wil know that I was born male but I have learned to live with it. I have found that as my confidence has grown most people do accept me as female and treat me as such. I am just happy being able to live as me and hopefully the hormones will help to diguise some of my features and make me appear more feminine.

[Katesback]

One phrase for you and most all ts girls I know. Facial feminization surgery. The best money I EVER spent bar none!!!!!!!!!

having mostly masculine features, passing used to be a real issue for me. It's one of the main reasons why it took me so long to transition. I know that most people who see me wil know that I was born male but I have learned to live with it. I have found that as my confidence has grown most people do accept me as female and treat me as such. I am just happy being able to live as me and hopefully the hormones will help to diguise some of my features and make me appear more feminine.

I have said this before and shall say it again. I support the right for someone to get a tattoo of a penis on thier face, I support the right for a person to want to be a gender F__k but I also know that they face major challenges in following that path. Personally I like the idea of blending into society as a NORMAL woman.

Katie

it's always an issue for every transperson to some degree. even if you have the 'look', trans history affects everyone. and whether or not you're trans, everyone has body issues and questions their self image to a degree. I'm 6'4" without shoes, and there's nothing I can do about that. It's not about passing, it's about being yourself and being happy with yourself regardless if you meet society's standards for what gender should be.

[ReineD]

Personally I like the idea of blending into society as a NORMAL woman.

So what's the difference between "blending as a normal woman" and passing? They're both the same to me.

[Zenith]

So what's the difference between "blending as a normal woman" and passing? They're both the same to me.

Sort of my point too...

[kellycan27]

I have seen a lot of these passing threads, and I suppose that the question of passing/blending is pretty much up to interpetation of the individual. From the replys I have read in the numerous passing threads seem to indicate, to me anyway... that "blending" is more like just having the ability to move about freely and without distinction.. Drawing little or no attention, melding into the pack so to speak. Passing on the other hand, and again this is just my interpetation as well as my own personal desire.. is more the ability to be right out in front, up close and personal... in their face. Defying them to to see me as anything but a woman. I want to stand out, I want the attention, I want the same opportunities that any other woman enjoys, in such things as jobs, relationships, family, children. i don't want people to just look past me, I want them to look at me.... and I want them to remember me. We spend all of this time and money,anguish and pain to reach our goal. Why settle? Why not reach for the stars? Once again... this is only my opinion.. your milage, or desires may vary.
Kel