Ever feel like chucking the "man card"?

[JohnH]

I'm preaching to the choir, but here it is:

Last straw - I came across some article at Foxnews.com under Health->Men's Health entitled "Dealing With Gynecomastia" [enlarged male breasts].

I believe the problem of some men's despair of having breasts resides between their ears and not on their chests.

How "wonderful" it is to be on the "Macho" bandwagon -
- For formal wear you get to have the wide latitude of wearing a coat and tie.
- You get the broad choice of bottoms - pants or shorts.
- If you need a bra - tough sh!t, men don't wear bras.
- Shoes must not have heels higher than 2 centimeters (about 3/4 inch).
- You must not wear makeup or wear nail polish.
- Long hair, particularly over the ears, is not approved.
- Men don't shave their legs, arms, or chest.

Of course a man cannot wear a skirt or dress.

And then I see this article mentioned above and that is enough for me to want to chuck my man card and get off of the stupid Macho bandwagon.

I guess my clothing and grooming values don't conform to the typical cis-male norm, so I must have a feminine mind. Society views men with feminine tendencies as something shameful, but a woman with masculine tendencies is admired. So I guess the next step is to get my body's appearance to conform to my mind through hormones.

Johanna

[Cynthia Anne]

You have just discribed a life that I wouldn't or couldn't live! It sounds so boring! Thank goodness I don't have to live it!

[juno]

A relative said that her friends two boys developed gynecomastia and "had" to have surgery to fix it. So, I asked whey they needed surgery. Isn't it just a natural variation in men? Of course, she didn't have a good answer. It is sad that people always see variations in gender as an urgent medical issue instead of just accepting normal diversity.

[ReineD]

I don't blame you for feeling frustrated, given your flexibility with gender :hugs:, but you mustn't be intolerant of individuals who feel either solidly male or solidly female and who wish to look the part based on the ideal male & female beauty images given us by the media.

Personally, I don't like going on women's beauty sites either, where it seems the goal is to look "perfect" (large voluptuous breasts, trim waist, long legs, eyes spaced far apart with thick eyelashes, the perfectly arched eyebrow, button nose and full lips, long cascading hair, etc ... and young to boot!). But I don't put women down who aspire to look like that.

Can't you just say that a cisgender male's ideals are not your own, and leave it at that?

[JohnH]

Reine,

If society were tolerant with gender variations in genetic males I would not be frustrated. What gets my goat is where the author asserts that no man wants to have breasts as a blanket statement. It is one thing to be a woman and wish for the desirable attributes and not have them and not be ashamed, but it is another thing when it is considered shameful for men to have breasts.


A relative said that her friends two boys developed gynecomastia and "had" to have surgery to fix it. So, I asked whey they needed surgery. Isn't it just a natural variation in men? Of course, she didn't have a good answer. It is sad that people always see variations in gender as an urgent medical issue instead of just accepting normal diversity.

Just think of one or both of those boys decided to transition later in life. He or they would be furious that he or they got mutilated because of society's values.

Johanna

[kimdl93]

well, the author obviously hadn't considered All of the possibilities.

[Julogden]

I don't blame you for feeling frustrated, given your flexibility with gender :hugs:, but you mustn't be intolerant of individuals who feel either solidly male or solidly female and who wish to look the part based on the ideal male & female beauty images given us by the media.

Personally, I don't like going on women's beauty sites either, where it seems the goal is to look "perfect" (large voluptuous breasts, trim waist, long legs, eyes spaced far apart with thick eyelashes, the perfectly arched eyebrow, button nose and full lips, long cascading hair, etc ... and young to boot!). But I don't put women down who aspire to look like that.

Can't you just say that a cisgender male's ideals are not your own, and leave it at that?

Hi Reine,

It would be great if things were that simple and innocuous, but they often aren't, IMO. If it were a matter of the cisgendered majority adopting a live-and-let-live attitude toward us, and didn't try to prevent us from living our lives unhindered, then I'd agree, but that often isn't the case, so I do have issues with some of them. The problem is that a significant portion of " individuals who feel either solidly male or solidly female and who wish to look the part based on the ideal male & female beauty images given us by the media" feel that they are superior to those of us who aren't like them. Some of those people feel justified in discriminating against people like us, even to the extent of wanting to deny us the right to employment and housing. Some of them fight tooth and nail to prevent the passage of laws that make it illegal to discriminate against us. Many of them claim that God says were abominations.

How would you feel if those women on the beauty sites felt that it was OK to fire you from your job or deny you access to housing, or even claim that you're an abomination in the eyes of God because you don't look like them? How about physically attacking you or vandalizing your property simply because you don't meet their standards for female beauty? That's all stuff that happens sometimes when people violate the gender rules.

The gynecomastia stuff is sad and wrong, but that's not the main issue, it's just a symptom of the main issue.

So, yeah, that does tend to make me intolerant of the way our society views gender issues. ;)

Carol :)

[Frédérique]

And then I see this article mentioned above and that is enough for me to want to chuck my man card and get off of the stupid Macho bandwagon.
I guess my clothing and grooming values don't conform to the typical cis-male norm, so I must have a feminine mind. Society views men with feminine tendencies as something shameful, but a woman with masculine tendencies is admired.

When the macho bandwagon rolled by, I averted my eyes…:heehee:

Obviously, having a “card” was not in the cards – I was never invited to join the pack mentality, or mindset, nor was I ever interested in ditching my intelligence for some sort of temporary brotherhood that indicated a “coming of age.” I wouldn’t listen to what society has to say about views, one way or another, since we, as crossdressers, are largely outside of society and operating on sensibilities. I admire males with tendencies that others would describe as feminine, and, if you ask me, females can do as they wish – it’s really none of my concern. Do you really think you have a feminine mind? Why can’t you just have a mind of your own choosing, and not assign a gender to it? I mean, society is not forcing you to make distinctions, so you can be as you wish to be…

[christina s]

I guess i need to make a video of myself done up benching 400 pounds and see what they say ......

[ReineD]

Reine,

If society were tolerant with gender variations in genetic males I would not be frustrated.


Hi Reine,

It would be great if things were that simple and innocuous, but they often aren't, IMO. If it were a matter of the cisgendered majority adopting a live-and-let-live attitude toward us, and didn't try to prevent us from living our lives unhindered, then I'd agree, but that often isn't the case, so I do have issues with some of them.

I understand what you're both saying and I also am angry with the cisgenders who persecute transpeople. My SO also suffers from the prejudice. But, not all cisgenders are like that.

What I'm suggesting is to not take an article aimed at men who wish to not have male breasts as a specific bias against TGs. From a pure logical standpoint, just because there are men who want something done about their own gynecomastia doesn't mean these same men would automatically be against others who make different choices.

Just for a moment, pretend we are living in a world where cisgenders live happily alongside transgenders, like in Star Wars IV, the Mos Eisley Cantina scene where all these aliens who look drastically different are hanging out together. Anyway, even then there could be men with gynecomastia whose best friends are trans and who still would not want to have their own male breasts.

I'm just saying the ad or article was a resource for gynecomastic men and not an attack against transgenders, unless they said something outright in the article against TGs. It's just like all the ads for breast augmentation or rhinoplasty aren't attacks against women with small breasts and large noses.

[JohnH]

When the macho bandwagon rolled by, I averted my eyes…:heehee:


Good for you! I was on that bandwagon and I stepped off.

Johanna

[JenniferLynn0370]

I think my man-card was shredded...or burned??? Either way, it's gone! :-)

[busker]

Johanna, thanks for pointing out the article. I looked it up and was pleasantly surprised at the reasonably serious tone--given that it was done by FOX. It didn't make fun of men with G, and of course, most men don't want breasts---it really changes the shape of their Brooks Bros coats. those of us farther along the gender scale have different feelings, of course, but there are many here who have stately categorically that there are NO breasts in heir futures, so even CDs have limits. The good thing about the article, is that it gets it out to a wider, and more conservative audience and that may be in our favor at some point in time. We don't all have to be on the macho bandwagon, but there is room for everyone, I think.
or as the Canadian billboard proclaimed
"there is room for all of God's creatures--right next to the mashed potatoes."

[Jamie001]

I think my man-card was shredded...or burned??? Either way, it's gone! :-)

Mine too. I lost my man card many years ago and I don't miss it at all!!

[AlannahNorth]

Obviously, having a “card” was not in the cards – I was never invited to join the pack mentality, or mindset, nor was I ever interested in ditching my intelligence for some sort of temporary brotherhood that indicated a “coming of age.”

Frederique,

Well said - thank you.

[SarahMarie42]

I'd love to chuck the man card. I'd totally do it, if I felt I could, and I suppose I could try living full-time next semester (if I really wanted to), but even with that said...I don't want breasts as a guy. They seem incongruous. I don't have issues with anyone who would want breasts as a guy, but that's more gender**** than it is transgendered or related to any sort of cross dressing.

[Julogden]

What I'm suggesting is to not take an article aimed at men who wish to not have male breasts as a specific bias against TGs. From a pure logical standpoint, just because there are men who want something done about their own gynecomastia doesn't mean these same men would automatically be against others who make different choices.

Just for a moment, pretend we are living in a world where cisgenders live happily alongside transgenders, like in Star Wars IV, the Mos Eisley Cantina scene where all these aliens who look drastically different are hanging out together. Anyway, even then there could be men with gynecomastia whose best friends are trans and who still would not want to have their own male breasts.

I'm just saying the ad or article was a resource for gynecomastic men and not an attack against transgenders, unless they said something outright in the article against TGs. It's just like all the ads for breast augmentation or rhinoplasty aren't attacks against women with small breasts and large noses.
Hi Reine,

I agree, it wasn't consciously intended as an attack on TG's, but it clearly reflects society's biases. I think that if society at large wasn't so rigidly polarized along gender lines, as well as transphobic, there would be no stigma associated with gynecomastia. And while it was intended as a resource for gynecomastic males, I feel that it does them a disservice by affirming that there's something wrong with them.

And again, females who have small busts or large noses aren't treated the same as transgendered people are, as they aren't legally denied equal rights because of that, and they aren't at risk of being physically attacked because their nose is a bit large or their bust a bit small. No one yells slurs at them from passing cars. I can't see that the comparison is a valid one.

Carol

[ReineD]

I think that if society at large wasn't so rigidly polarized along gender lines, as well as transphobic, there would be no stigma associated with gynecomastia.

Hi Carol, thanks for responding. :hugs:

Maybe you and I disagree because I don't see a stigma attached to gynecomastia, anymore than other things people might want to change about themselves. I see heavier set men all the time who have male breasts, and to me, it just looks like it's a normal part of being overweight. If a young trim male has slightly developed breasts to me he just looks muscular. But, if his breasts are well developed, then I agree this is quite a departure from a male body. If he doesn't identify female then I totally understand why he'd want to change this. It's a question of wanting to look like the gender you feel, rather than a gender you are not. It is like the women who have pronounced facial hair. If I had facial hair like a friend of mine does (can't remember what the condition is called), like her I'd want to do something about it, and I am not the least bit biased against transmen.



And again, females who have small busts or large noses aren't treated the same as transgendered people are

I had small breasts before having kids (still do actually), and there were guys who made mocking comments about them when I was younger. I got over it. When I had a miscarriage I felt I had failed as a woman. I very much felt a stigma but it was self-induced. I also inherited my mother's rosacea, and until I did something about it I had many people ask me what was wrong with my face. There are people with severe acne or obesity who are unfortunately treated differently sometimes because of this, and if they want to do something about it, this doesn't mean that others like them are any less worthy or that they cannot find their niche in life.

True, people who have things about themselves they wish to change are not denied legal rights or attacked, and thankfully this has greatly improved in the last 30-40 years for the TG community and it is still improving. There are many people in this forum who have a great deal of freedom of expression and who do go out without being attacked, including transwomen who transition and continue to lead their lives, whether or not there are some males who want to do something about their gynecomastia.

[VioletJourney]

I used to be on that "macho bandwagon", but it's just such hard work trying to pretend to not care about some stuff. Lately I've become somewhat of a rebel towards social norms, because so many of them are just so stupid and arbitrary.

[Julogden]

Hi Carol, thanks for responding. :hugs:

True, people who have things about themselves they wish to change are not denied legal rights or attacked, and thankfully this has greatly improved in the last 30-40 years for the TG community and it is still improving. There are many people in this forum who have a great deal of freedom of expression and who do go out without being attacked, including transwomen who transition and continue to lead their lives, whether or not there are some males who want to do something about their gynecomastia.

I know, no argument there, I'm not suggesting that anyone should let fear hold them back from being who they are, going out or living the way they need to live. Things have massively improved, in the US anyway, but we do need to keep in mind that we have no legal protection from discrimination in most states and towns/cities. There's some debate about whether we're protected by the federal law the prohibits sex discrimination, maybe we are, maybe we aren't. We really need to have a clear-cut law that makes it illegal for employers to fire us for coming out on the job and, probably way more difficult, prohibits hiring discrimination.

And yes, I guess we'll have to disagree on the gynecomastia issue. :)

Now if we could just get the religious extremists of all stripes to stop trying to force their hateful, twisted, b-a-s-t-a-r-d-i-z-e-d versions (had to do that to confound the censoring here) of religion onto everyone else by passing laws that reflect their hatred, things would really be looking up. But that's a different thread, we've hijacked this one enough. ;)

Carol

[JohnH]

Yet more reasons to chuck ye olde man-card:

I saw a video of "More men getting nip and tuck" on MSNBC and one of the statements is that men cannot be bruised since "men cannot wear makeup". The video also warned of men looking too good for their jobs.

It's more of this junk that would make me want to reach for that vial of injectable estrogen and syringe if I had those items in my possession.

Johanna

[Loni]

i tried looking for a man card but not to be found here.
as for having breasts as a man, ( a B or even a C cup), i would see no real problem having such. if another had a problem it would be them not me.
but sadly for me i missed a golden chance, i let my self get push into surgery and not hormone therapy.

[Nia Hush]

The decision to eliminate body hair was just as much a masculine as feminine choice for me. While I was not hairy to the point of which is seen in a negative light in movies, I found that keeping the hair just makes me sweat a lot and needlessly so when things get warmer or more humid and I can honestly do without that.

I'd like to earn my sweat, thanks, not have it just happen the second I step outside.

Additionally, the fringe benefit of growing my nails out to tomboyish lengths is it serves two purposes: moderately feminine, but with some nail hardener, also more friendly to guitar strumming/picking and guitar is something I'm getting back into anyway.

On dresses and skirts - well, being of Scottish descent and being an extra in a Brigadoon production taught me it takes a real man to wear a kilt and by extention, skirts, so arguments against skirts are invalid. I had to dance in this stuff before.

Oh, but dancing's probably not macho, either. That's why girls get bored and end up dancing with each other, you know. Very macho to disappoint a lady.

[ReineD]

I saw a video of "More men getting nip and tuck" on MSNBC and one of the statements is that men cannot be bruised since "men cannot wear makeup". The video also warned of men looking too good for their jobs.

Goodness ... haven't you seen the availability of male grooming products out there? It's the same stuff that women use, except it is packaged differently. lol

Here's one: The Men Pen (http://www.themenpen.com/). Try googling male grooming & hair color products. When I did it, the search engine returned 64,000 results! Unfortunately, even the men now are falling prey to the media propaganda for youth and beauty ideals.



It's more of this junk that would make me want to reach for that vial of injectable estrogen and syringe if I had those items in my possession.

Johanna, why is that you put down the non-CD men who don't wish to be feminine? Why do you call it junk? If you want to transition, shouldn't it be because of who you are internally and not as an angry reaction over how cis-men choose to present themselves?