A question to the CD's

[WsprsOnTheWind]

How important to you is the comfort level of your GG's? Are you so caught up in your own agenda of dressing at any cost that you would shut someone that loved you out of your life if their comfort level was not to the degree of participation that you would like, or would you just be glad that you had someone who loved and accepted you and could accept any level of participation she would/could engage in?

What if she refused to participate at all but did not hold you back or expect you to stop as long as you didn't include her? Would the fact that she loved you and accepted you be enough or do you feel you have to find that person who can fill all of your needs as a CD to be content?

[ShannonDragon]

Since my wife is a very big part of mine, I want her to be as comfortable as she can. Fortunately I am one of the lucky ones who's wife has no problems with my dressing.
That still does not mean I come straight home from work and change into a skirt or do the same on weekends. My choice actually, my comfort level.

[Richelle]

My wife does not like or support by cross dressing and me going out as Richelle. However, I must also say that she accepts that I go with her to the nail salon and have my nails done at the same time she does. She also accepts that some of my paints and tops are from the womens departments or stores.

After almost 30 years of marriage we have come to an understanding that this is one area we do not share or even talk about. This works for us and our marriage. I am not sure it would work for others.

Richelle

[GaleWarning]

My marriage did not end because of crossdressing. It ended because there were too many other issues about which we could not agree. Eight years down the line, I do regret having parted, but am realistic that, had I stayed, I would be at least as miserable today as I was back then.

[Nigella]

Our relationship has always been based on a mutal respect and understanding of each other. Back in the day when I professed to be a CDer, things never moved at a pace that neither of us was comfortable at. There did come a point where I pushed too hard and I got bitten. It shocked me to realise what I had done so I handed full control to Sandra.

Since that point it has been agreed movements. Sandra has never put any ultimatums to me, as I never would to her. Having now accepted that I am TS, if it came to a point where Sandra could not accept me for who I am, then yes we would split. It would hurt more than anything in the world, but we both know that it would not work if we could not agree.

[BRANDYJ]

How important to you is the comfort level of your GG's? Are you so caught up in your own agenda of dressing at any cost that you would shut someone that loved you out of your life if their comfort level was not to the degree of participation that you would like, or would you just be glad that you had someone who loved and accepted you and could accept any level of participation she would/could engage in?

What if she refused to participate at all but did not hold you back or expect you to stop as long as you didn't include her? Would the fact that she loved you and accepted you be enough or do you feel you have to find that person who can fill all of your needs as a CD to be content?

Wsprs, You know me, so maybe you already know my answer to your question. A good one, I might add. As you know, my SO accepts me completely and has no problem at all with my dressing. But if she did not want to participate on any level, yet still let me dress when I wanted to or otherwise not include her in any way. I would still be happy. For me, her happiness is as important as my own. It's my responsibility to communicate with her about limits or things she may not like...if there was any. I'm happy to say that my own self imposed limits and sensibility to how often and when I dress meets hers 100%.
Bluntly, I'd do all I could to shut my crossdressing out of my life instead of cut her out of my life. Nothing on earth is as important to me as she is to me. That means her happiness and comfort level about not only my dressing, but everything else between us is a very happy compromise. My dressing is very compatible to our life together. I would never ask more of her in participation then she would be happy or comfortable doing or sharing this with me. Simply stated, She comes first and foremost.

[Kaz]

I have no desire to include my wife in this, though if she expressed an interest I would accommodate her wishes. I hope that she can accept me as I am but this has been a difficult ride and I suspect that it will not end as I would like. I would really like her to accept me as I am and for us to continue with our life together. I have no demands on her at all and do not seek her participation other than accepting this side of me. I do not wish to make it publicly visible or to push it into our family life...

Some CDs here seem to make all sorts of demands on their partners... all I want is acceptance and understanding.

[BRANDYJ]

I have no desire to include my wife in this, though if she expressed an interest I would accommodate her wishes. I hope that she can accept me as I am but this has been a difficult ride and I suspect that it will not end as I would like. I would really like her to accept me as I am and for us to continue with our life together. I have no demands on her at all and do not seek her participation other than accepting this side of me. I do not wish to make it publicly visible or to push it into our family life...

Some CDs here seem to make all sorts of demands on their partners... all I want is acceptance and understanding.

Hi Kaz, In reading your response, I am not clear on whether your wife even knows you crossdress or is that something you have never shared with her? I hope you don't mind my asking.

[kimdl93]

I'm fortunate to have a wife who accepts me fully and participates fully. I'd be disappointed if it were any other way, but I realize that this is asking a bit much of most women.

[StaceyJane]

My wife doesn't have a problem with me crossdressing but she doesn't want to participate. That's fine with me as long as I can crossdress and I don't have to hide the fact that I do.

[charlie]

My wife hates that I dress and hates to even discuss it with me. We have a "don't ask don't tell" agreement and try not to get into discussions that will result in her crying. I dress each month when I go away on business. I guess I just can't ever retire! I love her and hate making her sad and full of tension. That is why I go away to dress. I don't want her out of my life and dressing is not more important then she is.

[Cynthia Anne]

I think this is a problem more wide spread than most realize! It's pretty easy to fall in a rut and think of oneself and kind of ignore the 'comfort zone' of that SO!

[Christine1954]

I have to agree with Brandyj, the happiness of my wife is first and foremost. She did not accept my dressing at one stage and I dressed in secret, hiding it from her. Then one day the subject came up (I had not been found out by the way) and we discussed it briefly. Cutting a long story short, there was a little understanding and acceptance which has been growing with each week that passes. She still does not participate fully but allows me to dress around once a week. She assissts with makeup and choice of clothes to some degree, and gives me lessons in being feminine. The more effort I put into improving my look, the more she accepts Christine. I epilate my legs and chest (which is painful) and spend time preening my looks, applying moisturiser etc. I am dieting to loose weight and reduced my clothes spending until I have reached my target.
I am happy with our situation and hope that it carries on improving but if my wife was not accepting then I would stop and suffer in silence, I could not let this come between us.
Christine.

[Stephanie47]

My wife knows of my cross-dressing. She does not like it, and, she does not want to discuss it. I tried to reassure her that my cross-dressing has nothing to do with her. Somehow she (and probably other gg's) figure there must be something lacking in the relationship because I cross-dress. On the conscious level?- I don't think so. During a heated argument she once threatened to tell all the relatives and the world I was a cross-dresser. Frankly, I do not trust her to keep my secret. She has her own dark secrets, which I do not think I would tell anyone about. However, she wishes she never told me her secrets so she could pretend to be the 'pure' woman without any hangups.

My marriage has been a one way street from the start. She made demands and requests that I relented to out of love. Looking back I gave in on significant issues, always figuring the next issue of any consequence would justify giving in on everything from where we live, the church, employment, etc.

So, if she would demand that I 'give up' cross-dressing, it ain't happening. I've never asked her to participate, and, would never even allow her to participate if she asked. If she changed her mind after participating, it would be thrown back in my face. Frankly, my wife is more concerned about what other would think about me/us, than what I feel about cross-dressing. Having a non supportive, hostile wife about a significant part of a cross-dresser's inner self is a recipe for disaster.

[Joanne f]

I would not push anything past my wife`s comfort level as i pick up on changes of mood very quickly which will in turn affect my mood very quickly especially when it comes to dressing (you know that sudden mood change some can suffer from) .
But to be honest my wife has a greater comfort level with it than i do so it is difficult for me to say what i would do if she had no or very little support of my feminine side as it is deep rooted in me for me to just ignore it but if that was the case then i would manage the best i could although i cannot see how i would cope if i was not able to have anything at all .
I would not really want to get into a situation were i could do what i like without some sort of participation from my wife or at least with the knowledge that my wife knew what i was doing and it is a bit late in life for me to look for someone else :heehee:.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I think this is a problem more wide spread than most realize! It's pretty easy to fall in a rut and think of oneself and kind of ignore the 'comfort zone' of that SO!

In my personal experience, I don't think it was the fact of him falling into a rut. As Brandy, pointed out to me, if you took the CD out of the picture he would still be a self-absorbed individual who cares only about pleasing himself. He never really wanted ME for who I am, nor did he ever care to try to learn who I was. He only wanted someone that he could try to change and control.

Brandy, yes I knew what your answer was going to be, how many times have you told me this when we've talked over the last couple years? I just wanted to see what others thought of the situation. I'm curious that way. lol

Wow, Christine, to "Suffer in silence" would be a horrible existance. I wouldn't dream of ever asking anyone to change that much for me and in return I would hope they wouldn't try to change me.

Stephanie, I feel your pain there and hate that it is being used against you as a weapon.

To the person that said they pushed their gg/wife too far, thank God you realized what you were doing and corrected it. Pushing someone only makes them grow to hate you in the long run.

It's wonderful to see you guys post that you would never expect your gg/wife to do anything she wasn't comfortable with. I was made to feel worthless and ashamed b/c I refused to go out in public, in the town I live in b/c I was embarassed and didn't want to run into people I know. Not only that, but with the nature of work that I do, it might not be a good thing to do that close to home for me. Of course when I explained that I was just a vile POS, yet his defense was that he couldn't do that near his home b/c someone he knows or is related to might see him. His just desserts will come when EVERYBODY finds out about him, IMO.

Taking CD'ing out of this equation and that's how it should be with any issues in relationships.

And, by gollie, what happened to the days that a man was supposed to take care of the woman and make her feel loved and protected? I've had just about enough of the "I did it all for you and you did nothing for me" mentality...lol.

Sorry, just had to vent there for a sec.

[Kaz]

Hi Kaz, In reading your response, I am not clear on whether your wife even knows you crossdress or is that something you have never shared with her? I hope you don't mind my asking.

Brandy, she knows, doesn't accept or like it, but sort of tolerates it, although it still waiting in the wings for the break up when she decides to initiate it... it comes up when she feels the need to attack me on something... anything, you know how it goes... I didn't get the whole hedge cut.., I crashed the car... etc... "you used the shower when you said you were working"..., etc... I stayed up too late (what was I doing)...

This is not what the thread is about, but yeah, I am always backed into a corner and never know why? I do everything I can to minimise the effect of my life on other people, but still they complain...

I live a life of guilt and hiding... and it is a spiral...

If she would accept me for who I am, as I do her, that would be good. Sadly life doesn't work like this... and my priority is to my family, not to my need to crossdress...

[BRANDYJ]

Thanks for your explaination Kaz. I am so sorry to hear how it is with you and your wife. Other then my crossdressing, I can relate to what you said when I think of my ex-wife. My crossdressing was never an issue and I still had to put up with things like you seem to be going through. But then again, I was not the model husband either. I still say it takes two to make or break a relationship. So I don't put the blame on her alone.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Kaz,

Feel free to vent here all ya want. If it's off topic that's okay as long as you get it out. I know your pain all to well only it was ME that he didn't accept. I told him from day one I didn't want to be in the mistress role and he kept on and on telling me that was okay that compromises could be made. He didn't need another woman to boss him around. His mother and his ex still have the ring in his nose.

I honestly think a big part of the break up with me was due to it being close to the holidays and he didn't want to have to choose to NOT go to his parents WITH his ex-wife or being with me. He would rather continue to the delusion as to man up and learn the skills that it takes to set boundaries.

You know what, I had the best Christmas I've ever had this past year. I went to my mom's, saw only immediate family, I didn't have any pressures of rearranging my schedule around his and fitting him into it and I didn't have to waste time and money trying to find the right gifts for people. My time and gift giving was limited to immediate family and I LOVED it. Not sure I ever want to be chained down to a serious realtionship again. I sorta LOVE the freedom singledom brings. Love and relationships are so overrated. There is just too much work involved.

I think I'd rather work on building my career, loving my dogs (all whopping 4) of them, and surround myself with good books to read. I really want to make a career out of collecting every new breed of puppy there is out there but I don't have the room so I'll try to limit my hounds to 10 or less. lol

I actually get angry with myself when I think of all the ways/times I tried to fix it or work things out when it wasn't ME that was the problem in the first place.

When a man can love me as much as my dogs do then I'l marry him. Til then Woof!

Now, I got off topic. I started having too much fun and lost control there for a minute. lol

[James Kaon]

How important to you is the comfort level of your GG's? Are you so caught up in your own agenda of dressing at any cost that you would shut someone that loved you out of your life if their comfort level was not to the degree of participation that you would like, or would you just be glad that you had someone who loved and accepted you and could accept any level of participation she would/could engage in?

What if she refused to participate at all but did not hold you back or expect you to stop as long as you didn't include her? Would the fact that she loved you and accepted you be enough or do you feel you have to find that person who can fill all of your needs as a CD to be content?

Gosh, its a big question! I am not in a relationship so maybe it is slightly presumptious of me to answer. Obviously you have been hurt by someone and I'm honestly sorry you have had an experience that has led you to feel this way. For me though, the answer is pretty straightforward. If you are in love with someone, then their comfort level is very important. But that must include some level of understanding on both sides. If my need to wear girls clothes included a need to have participation, then I would probably want to express that and ask for it before things got too serious. Even if you dont love someone, and you are aware of an SO who cares so much about you, then it should still be important to understand their position, but like I say, dialogue and honesty should be top of the agenda. Truthfully, if I started seeing someone, I would like a little part of the relationship to include my desires. But no way would I force the issue or feel angry if that was not a possibility. Acceptance of my feelings would be a huge thing that I would respect and cherish though, and not something I would take lightly. I would prefer to be honest but I understand that its not easy for many people as there are so many false perceptions about CDing. Well done for being truthful - you should NEVER feel forced to do something with someone. If you do, then it is not a good relationship.

Good luck!
Jx

[WsprsOnTheWind]

James,

You are right. There should be understanding, acceptance, and participation from both sides if both have expressed that desire and willingness to do so. However, when one or the other set a boundry then that should be respected, especially if that person tells you up front how they feel about it. Either decide you can compromise on some things and do so or move on. My error was not sticking to my guns when I told him NO in the first place. I will NEVER go back on my word again once I give it.

I don't believe in luck. I believe that all things happen for a reason and are for our greater good in the long run.

[FAVORITE HEELS]

I have told my wife she is understanding and loving.I think its natural to not want to participate.I truly think its better that way.She is also curious why I want to cuddle more.I say its her being accepting of me makes me so happy.Them feeling good about your intimacy with them as being unaffected by the CDing.I believe its much better after coming out to her.

[FAVORITE HEELS]

I agree with that! The privacy seems to be of the greatest concern so telling them you will keep it private and to myself made her more willing to understand it.I will continue to dress fully as often as possible with her knowing its going on and not know the details as She would prefer.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Looking back on the situation, I realize that there was no interest, care or love in me as a person. It was all about what needs of his I could fill. What he meant when he said we could compromise was that I would be the one expected to do all the changing and compromising. The person he presented himself to be in the beginning, that I fell in love with, did not exist.

Guys, CD's or otherwise, always just be honest and yourself with women up front. Don't put on this facade and act like someone you are not. If you are you from the beginning then she gets to know the real you from the start. It's not fair to anyone to mislead them to fall for someone that really don't exist. Be real and be honest b/c if you aren't it does come back to hurt YOU in the long run too.

[Eryn]

My wife's comfort level is extremely important to me, and it is a considerable relief to me that she is accepting. I do get caught up in what is called the "Pink Fog" and need to be brought down to earth occasionally. I would never consider shutting her out of my life for any reason.

If she refused to participate it would reduce my enjoyment of CDing considerably, as it would passively indicate her displeasure and I don't want to be a disappointment to her. I would probably still CD but it would feel like a regression to the way I was before we had "the talk." I don't want to go back to hiding it from her

[Fractured]

My wife knows of my cross-dressing. ... Somehow she (and probably other gg's) figure there must be something lacking in the relationship because I cross-dress. On the conscious level?- I don't think so.

My SO once said that maybe if she wore make-up and jewelry this desire of mine to do so would not exist. 'Fraid I don't know whether it would or not. But I try to take her feelings into account. We are just starting down this road together and there is enough stress in our lives without the need of adding more unnecessarily. Since I haven't done much (time or item wise) it hasn't been a problem yet but we don't know where it is leading and can't tell what the boundaries are yet until we reach them. Hopefully they will be such that both of us can be content with them. Only time will tell.

[RebeccaLynne]

Wsprs, relationships should be based on openness, trust, and honesty. I'd like to add that I'm strictly an "in house" CD'er, so public observation or recognition is not an issue. I divulged my CD'ing activity to my GF with the intention of complete disclosure, in order to allow her to decide if she considered it a "deal breaker". She's not really pleased with it, but as long as she's not expected to participate, she understands that I'm going to dress as I please when we're apart. It's my life, and I'll do what I want. I'd never try to control her, and I expect the same in return.


His just desserts will come when EVERYBODY finds out about him, IMO.

Since you stated you were "venting", maybe I shouldn't react as strongly to your quote above as I'm about to. But you've touched a nerve with it, and so I will.

I've read way too many posts from GG's about how they were deceived by not being told about their SO's CD'ing. Yeah, openness is a virtue. But so is confidentiality. And that's why CD'ers tend to keep it secret. We don't need to be outed by a vindictive ex, no matter what her supposed justification is. And to think she'd relish the thought of her former partner suffering public, private, or family humiliation is abhorrent. And exceedingly objectionable.

OK, I've vented now, too. And I won't apologize for doing so. Yeah, I wear clothing designed and intended for women. And I'm a guy. A crossdresser. That's my business, and nobody else's. Woe be it to anyone seeking to shame me.

After all is said and done, testosterone drives me. And anyone seeking to harm me will suffer the repercussions of their actions. I don't get mad; I get even.

[BRANDYJ]

Rebecca Lynn, I think you misunderstood wsprs. I've known her for over 2 years. Believe me when I tell you that she is not the type of woman that would vindictively expose her ex-boyfriend. What she means is, everybody will find out about him on their own. Wsprs is done with this self absorbed, hedonistic, arrogant idiot that never showed her any appreciation for her in his life. He was a user, cheater and a liar. Now please, don't ask me how I really feel about this guy.

[RebeccaLynne]

Brandy, I'm in your, and Wsprs's, court. I've read many of your posts, and hers, as well. You've found happiness, and she was wronged. Were I single, and in Tennessee, I'd look her up. I think she's gorgeous! :daydreaming:

I'm divorced, and my ex threatened to out me during that process. I countered with upping the ante regarding her crystal meth affinity, so she thought better of playing that game.

I only wanted to point out the importance of maintaining confidentiality.

If it's good enough for attorneys and medical practitioners, than we CD'ers are entitled to the same consideration! :heehee:

[Eryn]

Guys, CD's or otherwise, always just be honest and yourself with women up front. Don't put on this facade and act like someone you are not. If you are you from the beginning then she gets to know the real you from the start. It's not fair to anyone to mislead them to fall for someone that really don't exist. Be real and be honest b/c if you aren't it does come back to hurt YOU in the long run too.

I'd love to see even one example of someone who did not embellish themselves at the start of a relationship or carefully avoid mention of some negative attribute. The fact is that everyone does these things. GGs take extra care with their makeup and dress, men polish their cars a bit more often and both are extra careful to tread lightly in those areas where their prospective mate might find conflict.

If we were totally honest about the way we really are the chances of a second date are pretty slim! That's the way it is here in the Real World.

[Jenniferpl]

The acceptance of my cross dressing by wife is one of the few things in my life that really matters. We have mutually agreed to boundaries that I respect and refuse to cross. They are never brought up in discussion. For respecting those boundaries, my wife has purchased makeup and underwear for me. She has seen me partially dressed but never with breast. I am allowed to wear anything I want to bed except for underwire bras. I would classify her as partially participating. I can say that is has been far more enjoyable with her acceptance versus keeping the full extent from her. There are no more secrets.

[Taylor186]

My wife basically tolerates my crossdressing. She would love for it to disappear but knows it won't. She is ok with my going to a once-a-month social/support group, and has attended on occasion, but for the most part she does not like nor want to be involved with the "pink fog" she has seen at these meetings. I'm ok with her not going too. Truth is that even though I could go out once a month, I only go out once or twice a year. And, I maybe dress once or twice more a year at home. More than that adds a subtle unspoken tension to the relationship that she (and I) just don't need.

Oh, and like Jennifer, we have boundary's. For instance, CDing is never a part of bedroom activities.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Brandy, I'm in your, and Wsprs's, court. I've read many of your posts, and hers, as well. You've found happiness, and she was wronged. Were I single, and in Tennessee, I'd look her up. I think she's gorgeous! :daydreaming:

I'm divorced, and my ex threatened to out me during that process. I countered with upping the ante regarding her crystal meth affinity, so she thought better of playing that game.

I only wanted to point out the importance of maintaining confidentiality.

If it's good enough for attorneys and medical practitioners, than we CD'ers are entitled to the same consideration! :heehee:

Rebecca,

Thank you. I don't consider myself gorgeous by any stretch.

Brandy was right in what she attributed to me about "outing" him. What I meant is that it was very unfair to me for him to protect himself from those he worked for and his family to the degree that he would never go anywhere dressed in his home town so as to hide his identity. Yet, he attacked me b/c I wouldn't go out with him in MY town dressed or b/c I wouldn't order him to get out and pull weeds in the yard dressed b/c I didn't want the neighborhood children seeing him b/c I didn't feel comfortable doing so. My point is that if you can't do it around those YOU know don't push me and ridicule ME to do it around those that I know. He would love for the world to know it but he just don't want his children (one is under age and I understand that) and clients to know.

He has already hung himself b/c he don't know how to stop running his mouth and gossiping. He's made it no secret to many in his town that he is a CD, which was to his disadvantage b/c one day it will come back to bite him. You can't "selectively" tell anything in a small town. THAT is what I mean about everybody finding out. I won't have to tell a soul b/c he don't know how to shutup and keep a secret long enough to recognize that some things that happen privately at home needs to stay at home. That was another huge problem we had. I cannot stand a gossip. Relationships are very precious and private to me and need to be guarded at all costs. There are things that you do NOT share with the whole world. I honestly don't know what he told his friends other than the emails I KNOW for sure he forwarded.

Jennifer,

I agree we all put our best foot forward when we don't know others but to falsely represent ourselves is just wrong.

Brandy,

Thanks for the help in clarification. If it weren't for you the whole time I was dating him and since we broke up, I would probably, unfairly so, hate all CD's. Thanks for standing by me when I've probably been negative and offensive toward CD's b/c of my negative experience.

I completely accepted the CD'ing and would have been perfectly happy to have been with him for the rest of my life in that regard. However, I could not accept that his love was only as long as he was getting everything he wanted. Good luck finding EVERYTHING you want b/c the kind of woman he wanted in the bedroom ain't going to be the kind of woman he's going to want around his son and to meet his mama. Oh but she would never meet his mom b/c his mommy refused to meet me b/c she wanted him to get back with his ex and she's a control freak and thinks the whole world should kiss her a$$. The world will be much better off when SHE and his ex are dead and gone b/c they BOTH waste God's good air. Then he will be lost w/o anyone to boss him around. 50 years old and still thinks he's so hot that any woman that he snaps his fingers for will fall at his feet. You would think he was the Fonze or something.

And NEVER tired of telling me that HE didn't have to argue with me b/c it was too easy for him to find women and was always bragging about all the women he's been with over the years. Mind you he never said he could KEEP any of them. They all somehow seemed to slip through his fingers, IF they existed at all. One typically don't have to brag about how great they are, how good looking they are, what a nice person they are, how good they are at their job. Good qualities show and never a word has to be spoken about them. To quote a recent comment my pastor made. "People who are beautiful and don't know it are precious but those who are and know it are hard to deal with."

Now that I look back on it he sure had to defend his sexuality a lot. I think he's actually gay or bisexual and just won't admit it to himself. I've had more than one person tell me that about him so I know it's not just me.

Am I the only GG out there that's had this experience? Surely there are more or is it so rare to find a CD that cold and self-absorbed and I just "got lucky?" Nothing new for me. I seem to be a slug magnet. lol

[t-girlxsophie]

My Wife fully supports my dressing,and I always make sure I dont take her for granted (not to say I haven't lapsed).I love my Wife,but not just because she approved of my dressing that would most certainly not be a basis to any relationship,If she had a change in her comfort level then of course we would have to talk about her reasons but im sure we would come to a reasonable understanding,Am certain as anyone can be that our relationship is solid I couldnt imagine it not being so

Sophie

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Recently I've been going out with this guy that smells so wonderfully masculine. I had forgotten how many of the little things that I love that I had sacrificed for the CD. Guys there is nothing nicer than the smell of cologne on a man. OMG, it drives me insane. I just want to lean close to him and sniff him. He's sooooooo sniffable!

As one poster commented that he got caught up in the "pink fog" please don't forget the little things that might be important to your GG's. I know much of it was my fault b/c I didn't ask him to do these things for me but I really felt bad/selfish doing so b/c I knew he had been deprived of expressing himself for so long that I wanted him to get to experience every opportunity and chance even if it was a small thing like wearing perfume when we were going out. To me his happiness was more important than what I wanted. I do not regret the sacrifice b/c that is how it is supposed to be when you love someone. I just hope that if (gulp) I ever do it again I will have learned to be even more self-sacrificing to the point of always putting his needs before my own. But honestly, if both are doing their job correctly everybody's needs get met.

[Rogina B]

Recently I've been going out with this guy that smells so wonderfully masculine. I had forgotten how many of the little things that I love that I had sacrificed for the CD. Guys there is nothing nicer than the smell of cologne on a man.

I think you are painting us with way too broad of a brush.Everyone here is different.If you want to "smell masculinity" give many of us a sniff BEFORE WE CLEAN UP AND PUT OUR DRESS ON ! Hope you find happiness with your version of "a real man".

[Jenniferathome]

Each of the two scenarios is all any crossdresser could reasonably hope for. Any more than that is simply a dream come true. None of us should expect to impart our fantasy on another. If someone is demanding any more than acceptance from you, they are being unreasonable.

[katesometimes]

My wife is a huge part of my life and very supportive of me. Were she not, I'm sure I would put dressing behind me for the most part, only very rarely in private. I would rather give up dressing than give up my wife and our relationship. Fortunately, I don't have to because she is helping me to explore things and I want her to be there by my side all the way.

[RebeccaLynne]

Rebecca,

Thank you. I don't consider myself gorgeous by any stretch.

You're welcome. And unless you've airbrushed, photo-shopped or in some other way altered your avitar pic, you're really quite attractive... please don't sell yourself short! I'd be proud to have you on my arm...


Relationships are very precious and private to me and need to be guarded at all costs. There are things that you do NOT share with the whole world.

OMG, you're a CD'ers dream girl... and if you're not grabbed up by someone here soon, I'll be astonished...


Brandy,

Thanks for the help in clarification. If it weren't for you the whole time I was dating him and since we broke up, I would probably, unfairly so, hate all CD's. Thanks for standing by me when I've probably been negative and offensive toward CD's b/c of my negative experience.

Wsprs, Brandy's in your court... a stabilizing influence in a sea of uncertainty... she's got your back, and might even be able to hook you up... what're friends for, anyways? :heehee:


I completely accepted the CD'ing and would have been perfectly happy to have been with him for the rest of my life in that regard.

My GF better be really nice to me.... otherwise, I'm gonna see if someone wants to enjoy the California climate... I can't believe you're unattached! Unbelieveable! Gurls?


I seem to be a slug magnet. lol

Nah, I think you're just waiting to be discovered by the right guy... CD'er or not... hold onto the dream... it'll happen! :love:

[Marissa]

**Partial quotes**


Am I the only GG out there that's had this experience? Surely there are more or is it so rare to find a CD that cold and self-absorbed and I just "got lucky?" Nothing new for me. I seem to be a slug magnet. lol


Recently I've been going out with this guy that smells so wonderfully masculine. I had forgotten how many of the little things that I love that I had sacrificed for the CD. Guys there is nothing nicer than the smell of cologne on a man. OMG, it drives me insane. I just want to lean close to him and sniff him. He's sooooooo sniffable!


Wsprs, It really should not come to a surprise to you that only a few (or just you) would provide a response of experiences as to the one you have had to endure. Most GG's would probably have given up any desire to have anything to do with a man that had desires to wear any article of female attire. Being burned like that would not have anyone blaming them and most likely the GG would leave the site to never return or would take a lot of time to heal before even thinking of trying that again.

I have read your posts of the experience you had..and you did sacrifice alot for someone who seemed to be self-centered. You even shared some tone of never even wanting to try that again..so I even thought you had left the site. Either I have overlooked your posts or you spent time in other sections.

I don't know if you will have at least one GG who will give you their experience, etc, but at least you know that most would say it was very wrong for someone to put boundaries and limitations on you, that they themselves would not recipricate..and then add the mother/ex sitiuation.

So that brings me to the 2nd quote above..Rogina does draw a good point of how you used a broad brush... and I too would hope you find that 'real man'.. Just remember what someone once posted, it wasn't the dressing that made your ex an a$$, he was already one..

[PretzelGirl]

Maybe a little bit of a different situation than most above. I started late in life and my dressing developed with my wife at my side. So there never was a point I had to tell her and her comfort had to catch up with mine. I took it all at a pace that she was comfortable with and didn't push it. My wife being the person she is, would initially let me know what made her uncomfortable instead of internalizing anything. As time went on, these barriers went down.

But just as important as not pushing her was keeping the rest of our life the same. There is more to life than CDing especially when you have a partner to consider. And if the CDing takes time from those things, it is a big negative impact. What has greatly helped is that now that we are both okay with me being out and about, it is much easy to blend all activities.

[goofus]

Looking back on the situation, I realize that there was no interest, care or love in me as a person. It was all about what needs of his I could fill. What he meant when he said we could compromise was that I would be the one expected to do all the changing and compromising. The person he presented himself to be in the beginning, that I fell in love with, did not exist.

Guys, CD's or otherwise, always just be honest and yourself with women up front. Don't put on this facade and act like someone you are not. If you are you from the beginning then she gets to know the real you from the start. It's not fair to anyone to mislead them to fall for someone that really don't exist. Be real and be honest b/c if you aren't it does come back to hurt YOU in the long run too.

I couldn't agree more with that!

[Elsa Larson]

My lovely SO knew about my crossdressing within minutes after we met. Two months later, we went to singles Halloween dances as two women. I had so much fun being a girl that I failed to deal with her anxieties. I think she's gorgeous but she felt I was prettier than she was. And her own fears about being intimate with a woman caused a LOT of anxiety.

We are slowly working through the issues. Not always easy, not always fun, but always worth it.

[Rianna Humble]

Recently I've been going out with this guy that smells so wonderfully masculine. I had forgotten how many of the little things that I love that I had sacrificed for the CD. Guys there is nothing nicer than the smell of cologne on a man. OMG, it drives me insane. I just want to lean close to him and sniff him. He's sooooooo sniffable!


I think you are painting us with way too broad of a brush.Everyone here is different.If you want to "smell masculinity" give many of us a sniff BEFORE WE CLEAN UP AND PUT OUR DRESS ON! Hope you find happiness with your version of "a real man".

Given that wsprs has not "painted" anything, but has asked a question and shared experiences that are evidently very personal, I cannot understand this accusation at all.


Rogina does draw a good point of how you used a broad brush... I too would hope you find that 'real man'..

I can't see how Rogina and Marissa conclude that Wsprs is looking for a "real man" (their words, not Wsprs') from the fact that she shared what effect smelling cologne on a man has on her.

She has laid out quite explicitly just how far she was willing to go to accomodate her ex and she went way beyond her comfort zone

The closest that Wsprs got to "painting" anything was to comment on the experience of another poster in this thread who talked of getting caught up in the pink fog. If commenting on what another person has said is painting a whole group of people with a broad brush, then put me down as an artist.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I think you are painting us with way too broad of a brush.Everyone here is different.If you want to "smell masculinity" give many of us a sniff BEFORE WE CLEAN UP AND PUT OUR DRESS ON ! Hope you find happiness with your version of "a real man".

Let me clarify something. He wore only perfume every day we were going out somewhere. It had nothing to do with if he was dressing in femme or not. Maybe the term "real man" was the wrong use of words as it makes CD's sound like they are less than. Sorry.

Rebecca,

I've done nothing to touch my photo up. It's just a 35 mm shot that I did myself. Again, you are too kind.

Marissa,

This expierence has made me very skittish of dating at all ever again as especially CD's. I've said this before, bitten by one dog afraid of them all. It is true that if you took the CD'ing out of it he's still a nasty person who is self-absorbed. Probably the reason he's divorced, the truth be told and probably the reason that his ex wife hates him. It is but by the grace of God that I don't hate him. The only reason I don't is b/c I'm not giving him that much control over my life and it only hurts me. It has been a huge battle to keep that in check though.

Sue,

I knew from the get go he was a CD. He never kept that from me. However, never having any experience with this and being quite shy, and extremely southern, it was taking me a long time to let down barriers and feel comfortable with participation. I told him from the beginning that it takes me a long time to warm up to people. His accusation was that b/c I wasn't a "fully developed" participant after 18 months, I never would be so he had to find someone that was. Again, his version of what he called love had nothing to with ME and everything to do with what he wanted me to be for HIM. I only wanted time to grow into being comfortable with what he wanted. I explained to him many times that I had been doing this for a few months while he had been who he is a life time but he is very closed minded and cannot see anything but his own way.

I also could not abide the fact that he's into porn. He told me that it wasn't porn and he didn't do porn and then turned around and said that ALL men are into porn. SO, do you see the inconsistancies in the stories he gave me here? Porn is very damaging to the individual and a relationship for various reasons. It desensitizes the individual and reduces what he views sex to a fantasy and renders him incabable of having a loving intimate relationship. It makes his partner feel insecure and as if she is nothing but an object. The feeling of "making love" goes out the window and the woman feels that she is nothing more than the recepticle he uses to play the porn scenes in his head while he's with her.

Elsa,

I'm secure enough in who I am that it never bothered me that he might be prettier than me dressed. I would have been happy for him whether he was or not b/c he was happy dressing. Being with a CD never threatened my sexuality or sexual preference. Yes, I had the normal questions in the beginning but I knew that I am strickly heterosexual and that HIS CD'ing did not change who I am. I got past all that pretty quickly.

Rianna,

Thank for your words of support. Cologne on a man does have a wonderful affect on me and I really did miss that one little thing. However, I never meant to demean anyone here and I try to keep my negativity and cynicism from bleeding over onto CD's as a whole. If any of you felt I've done that I apologize. Poor Brandi, has born the brunt of my frustration so many times I'm surprised she's still talking to me.

I haven't even mentioned all the accusations I got from him about how I never wanted to come to his home. Every time I would drive the 35 miles to his house his ex wife would call up and throw a fit and he would expect me to leave. This happened several times and so I never felt comfortable in his home. It seemed to me that he didn't have the backbone to set the boundaries that it was HIS home and she moved out of it. He could never take me around his family b/c the ex was invited to all holidays and family functions and they made it clear they wanted nothing to do with me. So either he had to choose not to go around them for family gatherings and his ex and be with me or go and leave me behind. He also was not willing to set boundaries with his ex about last minute schedule changes. She would call up minutes before he was to leave to come to my house for the weekand tell him she had plans or had to work and want him to drop what he was doing to keep their son. Now, much of this was his fault for not telling her and sticking to this, that she needed to find her own backup plan for a sitter and let him know well in advance that her schedule had changed. His excuse for not doing that is that his ex would take his little boy to his mother and that his mother was not a good influence on his son yet, any time HE needed to do something he took him straight to his mother. There were so many double standards in this whole thing that I could write a book.

One weekend that I recall in particular was that he drove the 35 miles to my house on Friday evening b/c we had an appointment. Then drove back to his nieces birthday party after and drove back to my house after her party. Of course I couldn't go with him. Then the next morning he got up and drove back to his father's house and helped him change out the plumbing under his house all day. Why this plumbing couldn't have been done on a weekend that he had his son was a mystery to me. My ex said that "you don't understand my dad, when he wants something done he want's it now." And I was thinking you are 50 years old and you cannot set boundaries? It was always me that came last, always my time that got cut. I came behind his work, his son, his ex wife and his mother/father. Then he would turn around and blame me for having to spend money he didn't have on gas and I'm thinking but you can make all these trips back and forth to keep your family happy and it's my fault you're wasting gas? You throw me out of your home when I get there to accommodate the ex and you accuse me of not wanting to come there?

My biggest regret in this is that I set boundaries with my family and I made sure that when he was scheduled to be with me that unless it was an urgent thing I let nothing interfere with the time we were to spend together. I won't do that again. From now on I'll put my family and everyone else first and give what time I have left over to dating and if that is unacceptable then that's too bad. My grandson won't be 22 months old forever and I want all the time I can get with him NOW!

Once again, I wrote a book. Sorry gang.

[Rogina B]

You didn't play well together,and perhaps he NEVER WILL WITH ANYONE! You are single and free to date anyone that you fancy. I do think his CDing was only a part of the problem in the relationship.There are plenty of fish in the sea...enjoy your fishing.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

The only problem with most fish is that all they're good for is throwing back. :)

[kristinacd55]

What if she refused to participate at all but did not hold you back or expect you to stop as long as you didn't include her? Would the fact that she loved you and accepted you be enough or do you feel you have to find that person who can fill all of your needs as a CD to be content?

My wife refuses to participate for the most part, although we've shopped together and she's done my makeup before I went out. I've started to go to support meetings, shopped, and been to a couple clubs. She's somewhat ok with that. If she accepted me, I would still want to have others (like all my new girlfirends I've met!) but our life together would be so much better than it is now. We still love each other, but this is a huge gulf in our lives unfortunately.
.

[Marissa]

Given that wsprs has not "painted" anything, but has asked a question and shared experiences that are evidently very personal, I cannot understand this accusation at all.

I can't see how Rogina and Marissa conclude that Wsprs is looking for a "real man" (their words, not Wsprs') from the fact that she shared what effect smelling cologne on a man has on her.

She has laid out quite explicitly just how far she was willing to go to accomodate her ex and she went way beyond her comfort zone

The closest that Wsprs got to "painting" anything was to comment on the experience of another poster in this thread who talked of getting caught up in the pink fog. If commenting on what another person has said is painting a whole group of people with a broad brush, then put me down as an artist.

"Accusations"...hmmm guess somewhere in my posting I should have said IMHO..so you would not view it as accusing.. I see her and your postings as opinions or experiences...unless you directly state it as "I accuse you of.."

And my 'opinion' is based on a few PMs and threads that I have read on Wsprs experiences..and even now she provides an apology for the way it was said in the 'paintbrush' comment..and hesitance in being involved with a cd again

And I don't blame her after going through all that..anything of this nature will leave scars.

Even though its not about cding, I can pretty much relate to her as I even think of my last marriage..including the placing of boundaries of family just to appease him. I did that with my own daughters and I regret that. So yes, when you realize that you are giving more than the other and not getting anything in return for those efforts/sacrifices, its time to evaluate and make a decision. That is what I did..and yes, scars remain..but time will heal those and maybe trust will return.

Wsprs, Thank you for sharing all that you have gone through.. maybe some who are dealing with "agreed" boundaries will understand how fortunate that can be.

[Rogina B]

The only problem with most fish is that all they're good for is throwing back. :)
Perhaps you need a guidebook for sorting them out BEFORE you get so involved.Do you want to date another dresser? Is that why you are here? Are you accepting? I don't see it that way. So,why would you be here? Please tell.

[Pythos]

WsprsOnTheWind,

This statement, though not meant to harm, I am sorry, I found terribly offensive.

"I've been going out with this guy that smells so wonderfully masculine. I had forgotten how many of the little things that I love that I had sacrificed for the CD"

May I just ask....WHAT THE HELL IS A "REAL MAN" IS SUPPOSED TO SMELL LIKE?"

To my understanding we humans natural smell of BO, and other unpleasantness, unless we are cleaned up. Now I know there are women that love the sweaty smelling male, as there are men that also like that smell. In limited amounts I agree.

However, the fragrances we add to our bodies are not in any way natural. So the smell you are receiving from your "real man" is only a manufactured scent most likely made by a huge corporation.

I fail to understand why men are supposed to smell musky, and those males that choose a scent that is other than do not smell like a "real man". Aren't women attracted to pleasant even fruity smells? How about candy?

I myself wear no fragrances, but am thinking of acquiring a scent that is not too strong and of a grape scent...or I may get the cologne that the GG thought smelled really good....though it was marketed by a country western singer.

I do have to say though. We get caught up in these false definitions that are not historically accurate (my understanding is Greek men wore spices not too different from the women).

Now as far as the crossdressing is concerned. Intend to be open with my SO about mine, but mine is slowly diminishing to just being androgynous male, or fem. Not so much full on cding. It's fun for sure. But I would much rather have my own styles, and use items from both sides of the Gender aisle.

I have seen this too often about an SO being the sort that accepts, but not in her presence.

I think this kind of arrangement is absolutely lousy.

All it does it keep things hidden, it also does not allow the whole person to be known. And oh Great Maker, what might get known? That he has a "feminine side". Oh no, run for the hills!!! We can't have that now can we?

Seriously, my opinion is that the younger generation will hopefully kill these stupid and senseless notions.

We really need to stop treating what we do, whether full on cding or just trying to integrate "feminine" styles into our wardrobes, as if it is some kind of crime or disease.

*also, I am using the term "real man" not because of the OP, though what the quote says kinda implies the term. I used the term because it is something I do indeed hear, and frankly I am sick of it. There are no "real men" there are those that conform to a stereotype that is both inaccurate and limiting. IMOHO.*

[Rianna Humble]

WsprsOnTheWind,

This statement, though not meant to harm, I am sorry, I found terribly offensive.

"I've been going out with this guy that smells so wonderfully masculine. I had forgotten how many of the little things that I love that I had sacrificed for the CD"

Pythos, if you have read the whole thread, you will know exactly what Wsprs meant since she has spelled it out. It may offend you that a woman likes a man who doesn't wear perfume every single time that they go out, but this was just one of the things that she had been prepared to give up out of love for the cross-dresser who was using her.



I have seen this too often about an SO being the sort that accepts, but not in her presence.

WTH did you get that from the fact that Wsprs had been prepared to let the guy dress whenever he wanted around her, had been willing to go out with him in public, had made several changes to her own preferences to accomodate him but didn't feel it was fair of him to blame her when he chose to ditch the time he had promised to spend with her in favour of spending time with his ex-wife and family. What part of that makes you say that Wsprs woud "accept but not in her presence"?

By all means make generic points, but please don't throw them out as if they apply to this thread.

As for your assertion that speaking of someone smelling masculine implies "a real man", perhaps you should revise your biology. Part of the biological side of the mating ritual involves the fact that male and female of almost any species smell different to each other.

[bridgetta]

my girl knows. but i dont want/need to do it with her... i do it alone.. and i know. I i can see how surface illusion is it. thats what makes it fun.. also.... i kind of relax a little.. it takes me away ..
. id rather keep it my own fun experiment without it affecting pschology... but it would be nice to be very casual about it and have that understood..

[Pythos]

Rianna,

You did read my closing statement in astericks right? Cause I did say I was necessarially saying wispers was fully implying this. As far as men and women smelling differently, Actually those different smells are subconsious and are not truly smells in the normal scent. I think the term is pheremone. Women have different than men yes, but the detected smells are very much alike. This I learned in a biology class, the same class I learned that much of the creeerap that we put up with is social constructs. The male and female are different, but not as much as has been pushed onto us.

My second point was also not directed at wspers, it was directed to those SO that accept but only in secrecy. Do you think Rianna, that that stance really helps anyone?

Wsprs SO, sounded very selfish, and frankly put a black eye onto us CDs or those that vary from the social norm. He was not a good example. But we must avoid the broad brush approach of blaming. I was addressing the common thinking, and much of it I have seen here.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Perhaps you need a guidebook for sorting them out BEFORE you get so involved.Do you want to date another dresser? Is that why you are here? Are you accepting? I don't see it that way. So,why would you be here? Please tell.

I am here b/c I have CD friends here and I am accepting. Do I want to date another CD-NO but then I'm not anxious to get serious with anyone ,CD or not, right now. However, I am not opposed to seeing someone casually while remaining emotionally detached. I'll go through the motions all day long but it will be very superficial from now on. I just like to chat with others and find out their experiences. I like learning about things that you don't ordinarily hear about. I would also like to believe that my experience was unique and there is good out there. It has also helped me to get feedback from others about the situation. So, to learn and to grow as an individual is usually my motive for most everything I do.

Pythos,

As Rianna, pointed out, I did clarify that I probably used the wrong choice of words when I said "real man." What I should have said was that I missed the smell of male cologne...had nothing to do with BO, although there is nothing that smells better than clean skin, IMO.

Also, I never said I was "accepting but NOT in my presence." He was welcome too and did dress around me, we went out to clubs with him dressed, etc. My comfort level was not to the degree of going to the mall with him dressed or him dressed working in my yard where my neighbors children could see him. My point being, don't ask of me what you protect your family and children from.

If that is offensive to you then that is what it is. I realize your comments weren't meant toward me personally nor were they take so. I cannot apologize for who/how I am and I should have just as much acceptance for my limits as the acceptance that he expected, and GOT, from me. I feel that for the things I was willing to do and participate in that the things I wasn't should have been respected. Instead it was like the two year old that couldn't have ALL the toys, while I had none, who quits and goes home b/c he didn't get his way. I told him from the beginning that I wasn't going to be able to live up to the role he wanted to change me into. Unlike him, who lied and kept saying no, no, as long as I am loved and accepted compromises can be made. I never misreprestend myself. All I promised to do was try and I was trying to the end. I do believe that if he hadn't set the standards so high and pressured me so hard that I would have progressed and gotten more comfortable with it even quicker.

Now that it's said and done I am thankful that I don't have to deal with it. The problems of the ex and mother were enough to break any relationship not to mention all the other added stress and pressure he applied. I just don't want to be chained to what would have been a life of misery. I do believe the wise counselor I talked too afterwards who said "you dodged a bullet" was exactly right.

Again, good luck to him in finding someone who gives him EVERYTHING he's wanting. To my knowledge no human on earth has ever found that level of perfection in a partner. However, he does live in a delusional world so maybe somewhere in his idealistic fantasy place he can find that. I would love to live in a world like that too but DeNial.....ain't just a river in Egypt!

[TGMarla]

What if she refused to participate at all but did not hold you back or expect you to stop as long as you didn't include her? Would the fact that she loved you and accepted you be enough or do you feel you have to find that person who can fill all of your needs as a CD to be content?

This is exactly how it is with me and my wife. She knows I do this, knows I won't or perhaps can't stop, and she accepts that I do it. She does not understand it, and does not wish for any participation in it. I'm grateful to have her in my life. I love her very much, and expect to be with her until the end of our days. Just having her in my life, knowing that I crossdress, and having her acceptance, if not her support, means a lot to me. I'm content with it.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Just to clarify, I didn't find ALL aspects of it unpleasant. There were parts of it that I actually enjoyed. I am sure that in time most of it would have became second nature and I would have been fine with it. Now, we will never know but hey another bus leaves in 20 minutes. :D

Marla,

That's great that you both are open about it and accept the other's boundaries and are still able to have a great relationship in spite of the differences. What more could any RATONAL person ask for in any relationship whether cd'ing is involved or not.

My biggest regret is that I didn't say what I was thinking the moment he said "I don't like dogs in the house." I wish I'd said and I don't like you in my house, get out! Next time I will listen to my inner voice. You don't have to like or love my dogs but you must accept they are as much a part of my life as cd'ing is to yours. They are non-negotiable.

[msniki48]

It's wonderful to see you guys post that you would never expect your gg/wife to do anything she wasn't comfortable with. I was made to feel worthless and ashamed b/c I refused to go out in public, in the town I live in b/c I was embarassed and didn't want to run into people I know. Not only that, but with the nature of work that I do, it might not be a good thing to do that close to home for me. Of course when I explained that I was just a vile POS, yet his defense was that he couldn't do that near his home b/c someone he knows or is related to might see him. His just desserts will come when EVERYBODY finds out about him, IMO.

.

Whsprs, I feel for you my dear, in that you were made to feel badly. My wife has some of the same concerns about being out near our home. We both work in the public eye, so I believe we are in tune on that choice of not being local. when i met my current wife I told her imediately... ok ok, on our 2nd date. ;) She is very supportive but she does not feel the desire to have every waking moment with me as niki, and i try to respect that as we do so much together. I do have a concern about doing things without her, if she gave me permission to do so as niki.... i think i would tend to limit myself as i don't want her sitting at home while i'm out enjoying my niki time with friends.

thank you for making us think....it is a little complicated isn't it

hugs

msniki48:battingeyelashes:

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Niki,

It's WAY complicated. I was perfectly willing to go to other towns and go out with him dressed. Sadly, as I mentioned about the delusional state, we both were having such financial problems that the things he was demanding wouldn't have been possible her or elsewhere at the time. Kinda sad isn't it? I'd rather spend time debating things that are actual issues instead of arguing about things we couldn't do anyway. Thank God, it's not my problem to deal with any more.

When I finally told my family about it my aunt said the most profound thing to me that nearly made my jaw drop. She said "I'm proud of you, I'd never have thought you would have done it (dated a CD). I couldn't have done it but I'm proud that you were open minded enough to try." Now, my mom wasn't quite as understanding.

[Marissa]

**Quote modified**


My second point was also not directed at wspers, it was directed to those SO that accept but only in secrecy. Do you think Rianna, that that stance really helps anyone?


Wsprs, just wanted to repost part of Pythos remarks about not directing the "non-acceptance" at you.

As I said before, you are going to be a rare entity to have gone through the ordeal with such a person and still remain a part of our culture in supporting and attempting to learn from it all. Since not any or many replies from GG's experiences, most would have just walked away from it and said 'never again'.. kinda like marriage..:heehee: oh wait, I did it twice..dang..

I'm still have a sense of wonder on how much both our relationships sound pretty much the same..except mine wasn't about the dressing.. it was all the other issues that you state.. :D

[sandra-leigh]

Are you so caught up in your own agenda of dressing at any cost that you would shut someone that loved you out of your life if their comfort level was not to the degree of participation that you would like, or would you just be glad that you had someone who loved and accepted you and could accept any level of participation she would/could engage in?


You are trying to rationalize what happened in a relationship with a narcist. You will never be able to do that, as narcists do not act rationally.

In the meantime, you are projecting the behaviour of the narcist upon large numbers of other people, and you are hurting some of them badly with the way you are going about it.

Perhaps some people here have a "crossdressing agenda", but the large majority of the postings I read are from people who are trying to get through life as best they can.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Really? Whom have I hurt? The only person I've hurt is ME for getting involved with him.


I just went back and re-read the criteria for narcissism in the DSM IV and he most definately is a narcissist. One must meet 5 of 9 criteria to have a dx of narcissistic personality disorder and he meets all 9. I am not exaggerating either. Personality does not change therefore, there is no hope of him ever feeling anything for anyone outside of what he can use them for to his advantage. So his actions were only that which is typical of his ilk.

I would have caught this months ago if I hadn't been so caught up in so many other personal issues going on in my life over the last few months. Another reason is b/c by law one cannot diagnose anyone they are related to or personally involved with so I didn't think about it b/c of those terms too.

[Rianna Humble]

Rianna,

You did read my closing statement in astericks right? Cause I did say I was necessarially saying wispers was fully implying this.

Precisely, you did say that what Wsprs wrote implied the spin that you chose to put on her words.


My second point was also not directed at wspers, it was directed to those SO that accept but only in secrecy. Do you think Rianna, that that stance really helps anyone?

Your selective resposnes show that you are unwilling to acknowledge that I agreed you have the right to make general points but asked you politely to make it clear when you are doing so. The fact that you chose not to clarify in the previous post left your words appearing to accuse the original poster.

[Amanda22]

I've been thinking about your question since you posted it. I'm about to describe the relationship I have with my wife. I consider it to be as close to perfect as possible for two people. If two people truly love each other, then each is willing to give the other what they need to be happy and content. It's like a paradox. If my wife presented me with a boundary regarding my dressing, I wouldn't want to cross that boundary because I'd be knowingly hurting her. Likewise, she has told me many times she really does want me to dress for the simple reason that it fulfills a deep need in me. She has said a few times that crossdressing isn't at the top of any wife's list of qualities to look for, yet she absolutely insists I dress very regularly!

I've read on this forum how some members wouldn't want their GG to dress as a male. I'm not referring to silly threads about women "crossdressing" simply because they wear pants. I mean being in a relationship with a GG who wanted to seriously emulate a man. If my wife wanted to do that, I would absolutely celebrate it! If she wanted to wear a clown nose everywhere we go, I'd dare anyone to stare or point. They'd have to deal with me, then. Please, before anyone infers that I'm equating clown noses with FtM crossdressers, I'm not. I'm just saying whatever my wife wants to do, she has my full support, and she knows it.

This is just my opinion only, but having had this type of relationship, nothing less would do. I hope I've made some sense and helped you.

[Bootsiegalore]

You know there comes a lot of guilt as well for those of us who are born this way. Lately with the economy and other factors the way I look at it is you need to either live your life or curl up and die. I am the way I am and I can not change it. Do you tell a gay person he can not be gay anymore? To live with constraints is like having a leash or a muzzle. I would rather be dead. Just my $0.02

Rachel

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I've been thinking about your question since you posted it. I'm about to describe the relationship I have with my wife. I consider it to be as close to perfect as possible for two people. If two people truly love each other, then each is willing to give the other what they need to be happy and content. It's like a paradox. If my wife presented me with a boundary regarding my dressing, I wouldn't want to cross that boundary because I'd be knowingly hurting her. Likewise, she has told me many times she really does want me to dress for the simple reason that it fulfills a deep need in me. She has said a few times that crossdressing isn't at the top of any wife's list of qualities to look for, yet she absolutely insists I dress very regularly!.

Amanda,

Great to see you. I was down your way a couple weeks ago. Took my grandson to the Barney concert down there. He loves Barney. Go figure! I would love to spend more time down there just walking around looking at the buildings. I love architecture and every time I come through there I always like it. I love the sculptures on the streets. It seems like a quaint town in spite of its size.

Are you getting this ugly weather down there too?

I think your post, especially the first paragraph, paints a picture of a beautiful relationship. I wanted him to get to do it often too and that is why I was totally accepting of any time he wanted to do it when we were together at home or going to a club where here could dress, I was great with it-even to the point of sacrificing things I wanted to do b/c I wanted him to have the opportunity to dress WITH me so I would do things I enjoyed alone or just not do them. THEN, he tells me that I'm too much of a homebody and he was too social for him to accept me. Pffftttt-he never went out and did anything interesting anyway. The last thing I want to do is become a selfish person (and he would tell you that I am) but I am totally burned out on giving right now.

I think his biggest issue is he wanted someone who was a complete dom. While, I do have a strong personality and sense of security in who I am, I am not into being a dom the way he wanted. I like men who are assertive not ones who are submissive. I had to be the man and woman and shoulder the whole load in my marriage and that type relationship turns me off now. If I really would have told him what to do and where to go he would have 3rd degree burns by now I'm sure. lol

Bootsie,

I'm not sure what your point is other that I think you are trying to say you're going to do what you want to do and to hell with anyone who disapproves. Sistah, you do what makes you happy. No one here has asked anyone to change.

[t-girlxsophie]

A lot of people see Compromise as surrendering up great parts of yourself up to your partner.I see it as showing your loved ones that their opinions do matter.My Wife doesn't put any great demands on me,bar liking to see her man once or twice a week for more than an hour or so,which is fair enough,I do that for her because I love her she may be understanding and fully supportive but I try not to take that for granted,therefore our relationship flourishes.
If you become selfish and take liberties with them or move the goalposts without even a discussion,you cant be at all surprised to find they don't look at the relationship to be equal.and may want to move on IMO of course

Sophie

[Amanda22]

Yes, Chattanooga is definitely quaint! I moved here after 27 years in ATL, so it's kinda small to me. But that has it's advantages. Those storms were violent last night! I was listening for hail or the sound of a locomotive most of the night.

I'm 100%+ convinced that you were willing to at least tolerate whatever your ex needed to be happy. That's just so wonderful and how I wish everyone was like you. You're a beautiful person. Coming to this forum and conversing so respectfully shows your tolerance, understanding, and honesty. I applaud you!

I'll take the liberty of giving you my opinion about your ex-relationship... it was a bad match. Oh, and you met him halfway or farther. If it wasn't about D/s or crossdressing aspects, it would have been something else. I think it always comes back to mutual respect and GIVING. Sounds like you did most/all of the giving. I had a previous 16-year marriage in which I did the giving and I know the burnout and emptiness that results. It erodes your self-esteem, too, to where you question your own right to breathe the air. Talk about getting used.

Oh, and thanks for the humour! Keep posting on this forum, if you want, because you have such a fresh and honest perspective.

- Mandy

[Amanda22]

A lot of people see Compromise as surrendering up great parts of yourself up to your partner.I see it as showing your loved ones that their opinions do matter.My Wife doesn't put any great demands on me,bar liking to see her man once or twice a week for more than an hour or so,which is fair enough,I do that for her because I love her she may be understanding and fully supportive but I try not to take that for granted,therefore our relationship flourishes.
If you become selfish and take liberties with them or move the goalposts without even a discussion,you cant be at all surprised to find they don't look at the relationship to be equal.and may want to move on IMO of course

Sophie

Sophie, your post needs to be "stickied" somewhere. You said it all. If all of us did what you describe, there'd be so much more happiness amongst the member of this forum! Simple, isn't it?

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Amanda,

I lived in ATL for awhile. Much to big for this small town country girl. Give me cows, horses, rolling hills and barn yards any day. I love visiting big cities but I love coming home to a small town. Maybe that's the reason my fav. song of John Mellencamp's is Small Town. Drove to ATL to see him in concert. Think that was the last time I was down there.

On topic, yes he was chiseling away at my self respect and self esteem but I've worked too hard and too long to become who I am and no one will ever take that from me again. He almost succeeded but not quite. I've got more fight in me than to go out w/o a fight.

[Cheryl T]

My spouse is very very supportive. When we decided to venture out we made the agreement that she would go with me where ever I went. I love it!! Nothing makes me feel more confident than knowing she is at my side even though we don't display to the world that we are together. The thing I made clear to her is that it was most important to me that I look the absolute best I could as I would never want her to be embarassed to be out with me.

If she did not support but allowed me to go on my own I would go out. I would be unhappy that she was not sharing in my life, but this is a part of me that needs expression.

[BRANDYJ]

I want to add to what wsprs was trying to say about the men's cologne that she missed...one of the simple things she gave up and at the time did not even know she missed it since the jerk she was conned into falling for always wore femine perfume instead of men's cologne around her. So she realizd it when she dated a guy that was wearing men's cologne and then... and only then did she realize she missed it. Can't say I blame her. This simple statement from her was taken way off base and off topic about the difference of men's and women's scents including natural scents. I am not offended at all by it at all. I must have missed where wsprs used the term "REAL MAN" I can't find that in any of her posts. But I know she did not mean to offend anyone. Personally, the last time I looked, I am a real man and am proud and happy about that. Secondly, I have yet to ever see a definition of exactly what a real woman or real man is anyway. To me it's what you perceive yourself or someone else to be. Petty to be upset of offended by a silly term.
Wsprs is here among us. That alone after what she ha been through is acceptance of each and everyone of you that are members of this site. She is non judging and aware of the differences in all of us. Someone asked why she is still here if she is no longer involved with a CDer. I liked her response and am proud to know her and call her a friend. I met her almost at the beginning of the con this jerk pulled on her. As gently as I could, I tried to tell her this guy just ain't right in the head and that she was being used for his own kinky pleasures with little to no regard as to what wsprs wanted or needed.
I told her just last night that it's a wonder that she has not given up on all men, let alone men who crossdress. She is smart enough to know that what happened to her could have happened with a non-Cd'ing guy just as easily. As she has already said, she is not dating or looking at this time. But any of us that have been through a heartbreak know that time heals all wounds and there will be a day another man will come along and realize the beauty of this woman's soul and treat her like the beautiful person she is. I just want to say that we are all lucky to have her here among us.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Brandi,

Thanks.

Truthfully, I have pretty much given up on all men but as I told you, women are NOT an option. lol

I'm also here b/c I have fun here and I've found it to be a nice place to hang out.

[Rogina B]

Well then,just admit that you are curious of the T world...sort of like an admirer..And you have come here to get pleasure out of studying us...Well,welcome and enjoy..you aren't the first and certainly not the last!

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Nope, not here to study anyone. That takes too much time and energy. I'm just here to post and chat. Thanks for the welcome.

[wanagione]

my wife did not know for years. She does now and she is excepting. She has even met my friends in drab and has gone to a conference, where she met my friends dressed. I wish I had told her sooner but I was afraid of loosing her. I guess i was wrong. I am very fortunate to have her support and love in all this. She says that I am the same person she fell in love with and that she knows this part of me will never go away. She also says that she must have seen this part of me not knowing it was trans. and fell in love wtih that part too, way back when.

[Amanda22]

She also says that she must have seen this part of me not knowing it was trans. and fell in love wtih that part too, way back when.

Your wife really does understand you. There's no separating the aspects of your core from each other. As many have said, crossdressers are who we are and there isn't anything anyone can do about it. Your wife loves you and it follows that includes the whole you.

[Rianna Humble]

Truthfully, I have pretty much given up on all men but as I told you, women are NOT an option. lol

I'm also here b/c I have fun here and I've found it to be a nice place to hang out.

I can understand why you feel that way about relationships at the moment, but would echo Brandi's sentiment that someone will come along who will love and value you for the beautiful person you really are.

I am glad you still enjoy being here and despite what some have posted who seem to be intent on projecting their own negativity onto you, you will always be welcome amongst us.

[DonniDarkness]

In the words of Jim Morrison: People are strange when your a stranger

I think the OP topic is a good one, worth many pages of discussion, for many of this community, however.... If there is distance put between your crossdressing side and your masculine side, it defines the fact that "you" (as in the whole YOU) are not fully accepted and understood. I think the problem lies in that over the course of your life this separation of 'You" and your So's non/acceptance weighs on the inner ground structure of just being friends. Your SO should always want to be apart of you no matter how strange or quarky you may be. Living separate lives and not sharing parts of your life together will eventually lead to a separation of intimacy and companionship

Because at some point you become the "stranger"

Love in its true form is unconditional....it does not come with a constraint of any kind

Looking through the glass,
-Donni-

[DAVIDA]

Hi Wsprs!
I have to say something here.
I told my wife about my dressing the night that I asked her to marry me.
She just said, "So?"
This was almost 21 years ago.:)
I couldn't ask someone to share my life without knowing the "entire" me.
I, like a lot of others, was uncertain about what I was and why.
I credit Jean with helping me to accept who I am and that there isn't anything wrong with me.
She has been out with me several times and I dress at home all of the time.
I don't wear my wig or do the make-up very often.
If I am home and not wearing the clothes that I prefer to wear, she will ask me if I am OK, or if there is something wrong.
I could not be more happy.
The road travels both ways, too.
I take care of her to the best of my ability.
I shop for her. Which she really doesn't like to do.
She is the best dressed teacher at her school!
I am her man at ALL times.
It makes no difference what I am wearing.
I also realize that I am one lucky CD!

I guess that all of this was just to say, things can and do work out.
The person you should be with maybe just around the corner.
You never know when you will find the one that is meant to be.

I am glad that you are an active member here.
Please continue to let us know your opinion.

[Mary Jane]

My wife only tolerates my dressing and I only dress when she is away from home. I have no problem with this and appreciate what I do have.

[mskanuchi]

My wife fully accepts my CD'ing, but I don't over do it in front of her. I'm learning more each day, especially with make-up, and let her come to me when she wants to help. I've always laid around the house in lingerie with her, watching TV and all, but I don't push the full dress on her, but she's more and more interested. It's just a normal thing in this house. It's very important to me to have her support, I support her in all her endeavors, even if I don't like them at times, so it's a trade off. I'm going to meet some CD friends this weekend for a night out, she's fine with it, she knows I want and need to have friends with this interest in my life, I'm lucky in that way, but I also was out front from the beginning.

[Pythos]

MissDonni,

You echo my sentiments exactly, but worded it soooo much better. That was really what I was tryign to get to, the idea of separating aspects of yourself from your spouse I also think does some serious damage to a relationship.

I want my lover to love me and all of my quirks. I tested myself with the GG. Aside from the Daddy thing, I dealt with and even came to accept some of her kinks, and even was willing to engage in them. If it made her happy and truly did not hurt, then who was I to change that?

I do wish the SOs that learn later did have a bit more understanding of why the deception happened. But I also highly wish the deception was no longer something to be deemed necessary.

Oh, and another notion that I wish would go away is the idea of "only in the bedroom". I'm sorry but with exclusion of some styles of clothing, only in the bedroom is just limiting and making what we do into a kink, or at worst, pure perversion.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

You all have made some very excellent comments and points. It is also helping me to come out of my shell about this a bit and realize that this was his problem not mine.

Pythos, the "deception" part doesn't really have anything to do with CD'ing. If you wait years to tell a woman something you've been keeping secret then she's always going to wonder what else you've not told her. That would be true for anything issue not just CD'ing. Best to be honest up front IMO.

Being as he most always was wearing something femme in the b/r, I came to realize that it wasn't the feel of my skin that turned him on but the material that was on it. It could have been a manniquine laying there as long as it had a nightgown on and he would have been happy probably. I'm sure that's not true but it goes back to being made feel like an object and not loved.

Nothing more sentious than the smooth feel of a man's skin to the fingertips...that was another thing I missed. But again, I never told him b/c I didn't want to be selfish and deny him the things he wanted.

To go back and retouch on the narcissist comment made by another poster, the psychological narcissist has to bolster his ego to offset his underlying feelings of inadequacies. He has to brag about himself and build himself up. They have to be able to say their job is the best, their work is the best, they have the most/best looking women available, they are snobbish and feel elite to others. I used this in the male sense and mostly narcissism is seen in males but there are female narcissists too.

[marissa_sissy]

Since about puberty, I have struggled with this. It is a tough deal, because in telling someone, as was the case with my ex wife, for a gg, it can really shatter their universe. My current wife knows, but found out after seeing pics in my computer. It was a hard time, but looking back, maybe for the best. She has a level of acceptance, and I take what I can get in that regard. I try not to push it on her too much.

Your question, it seems to me, speaks to the secrecy that most of us shroud ourselves in. The urge to crossdress for me, is the same as the urge to eat to a compulsive eater. I hide it out of defense, and in doing so, yes, I run the risk of shutting out a loved one. I do not mean to, and sometimes do not want to, however, the desire is a very hard thing to live with. I refer to it quite often, as "the curse". (as from the first time I tried on a pair of lacey and frilly panties, I was cursed with the desire to dress in them) At this point in my life, I do not do anything that my wife is not aware of, which is about the safest way to maintain the trust I have had to build since the discovery. The feelings are there. No doubt, and I have not actually dressed in more than six months, due to the birth of our son. Its been tough to not ditch, and go somewhere, dress, and do what I do, but I am presently in a hold pattern.

I feel like anything from her, is better than nothing from her.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Marissa,

You make it sound like an addiction when you compare it to compulsive eating. I think anything can become an obsession if not kept in control. That was how I saw it anyway. Too much of anything becomes harmful. They're called soft-addictions and they consist of anything we do in excess that takes away from doing more productive things. Those things include but are not limited too: texting, talking on the phone, computer/internet, watching tv, reading, playing games, sports, etc. Anything that we dwell on and think about to an extreme is not healthy.

My counter argument to him was that he had specific standards that he wanted me to live up too. He would not have gone out with me dressed in sweatpants or pajamas, why then shouldn't he have respect my boundaries. I didn't question or push his limits, I accepted them and I loved him anyway. Not that I ever wanted to go out dressed in sweats or pajamas.

I didn't care if he kept it secret or told the world, but I felt it wrong of him to protect those he loved extremely while pushing me to be open and public about it. It was hypocritical of him.

[ReineD]

Am I the only GG out there that's had this experience? Surely there are more or is it so rare to find a CD that cold and self-absorbed and I just "got lucky?"

I don't know if his issues were specifically tied to the CDing, or if he would have behaved the way he did even if he was cisgender, but with different demands. I know there are men (and women) out there who have a lot of growing to do whether or not they CD.

You sound very bitter in many of the things you've said, and this is understandable, given the recent breakup. But for what it's worth and narcissism aside, I've learned with my own major life breakup (a 30 year marriage) that as time progresses I am better able to see not only the part that my ex played in our relationship's demise, but also my own. It always takes two people to make and break relationships. To be able to see the role I played is helping me to have a healthier relationship with my current SO.

:hugs:

You also speak of being self-sacrificing with things like his perfume and it didn't pay off. IMO, true self-sacrifice is the giving of oneself willingly and freely with no expectation of anything in return, in which case it ceases to be a sacrifice? :)

[MonicaTC]

How important to you is the comfort level of your GG's? Are you so caught up in your own agenda of dressing at any cost that you would shut someone that loved you out of your life if their comfort level was not to the degree of participation that you would like, or would you just be glad that you had someone who loved and accepted you and could accept any level of participation she would/could engage in?

What if she refused to participate at all but did not hold you back or expect you to stop as long as you didn't include her? Would the fact that she loved you and accepted you be enough or do you feel you have to find that person who can fill all of your needs as a CD to be content?

Is the assumption here that all of us CD's are caught up in our own agenda of dressing at any cost? Or are we just being lumped in with a certain someone due to a personal bad experience?

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Monica,

There is no assumption. Only questions. If there was assumptions there would be periods at the end of each statement not question marks. :)

Reine,

Yes, I have assessed the situation and saw the things that I did wrong. I also went back and addressed that to him and took responsibility for my wrong in the situation (several times). He never acknowledged any wrong he did. The closest he ever came was to say that he never meant to make me feel second best. Matter of fact I've been accused of being the whole problem and told, by him, that he had none and he didn't need to do anything to change. That in itself is laughable as we can all find way sot self improve, learn, grow and change. I PRAY that I never come to the place in my life where I cannot look at myself and see room for improvement. I think the day that happens is the day I'll be dead.

When I was with him, I didn't see or realize I was sacrificing anything. Which, is why I allowed his negative behavior to go on so long. Even he has said that I was not demanding of him. However, one still has to get SOME needs met in a relationship for the attraction to continue. One cannot give up everything they want/need or else what is the point of being with someone? I never expected anything in return for the things I gave up but I didn't expect to get mistreated in the process either. Again, some of my needs not getting met were my fault b/c I never asked anything from him when it came to the little things. I simply didn't see how much I missed the little things until I got them again.

I don't think I am bitter. Looking back at my marriage and being able to see where I was bitter, I can say that I am nowhere close to bitter. If that were true I would be lashing out negatively at all CD's, all men and humanity in general. I wouldn't be on this forum and I wouldn't have friends who are CD's. I know how I am when I'm bitter and I don't see bitterness here at all. I can see where it would have been very easy to be so though, but bitterness and anger consumes you and I don't want anyone to have that much control over me ever again. This man I dated for 18 months, my marriage was 17 years...he didn't come close to making me feel the way I did when the marriage ended. Bitterness is anger that has been allowed to simmer for long periods of time. There have been days/times that I have been angry and lashed out, and for that I've had to apologize and take responsibility for that but this is by no means bitterness. Nothing and no one will ever be worth me ever going back to that evil nasty person I was when I was BITTER! Even I couldn't stand myself then. I am a relatively decent person now.

Of course, you cannot know that b/c you didn't know me then. Only those that did can see the big difference.

[Marissa]

Is the assumption here that all of us CD's are caught up in our own agenda of dressing at any cost? Or are we just being lumped in with a certain someone due to a personal bad experience?


You sound very bitter in many of the things you've said, and this is understandable, given the recent breakup.

**Partial Quotes**

I want to express this before Rianna or Brandy start chastising (hope I didn't select too harsh a word) comments once again.

Wsprs, even though you are not bitter and have been a part of this site to gain some understanding and support, it can be taken in mixed light depending on how things are stated. Grant it, we don't all get the words or tone right, so at times it may seem that even a response can come across negative.

And of course, there are those typos that get an avalanche started..how easy can a view be changed from support to non-support.."can" typed instead of "can't".

I will still stand on the fact that when I first met you here, I wondered the same as to 'why are you here?', taking in some of the attitude such as bitterness about cd's... And yes, my man side took you as an interesting woman that would be nice to know..but then I felt ashamed that I was one of those that you held a bitterness towards..

That was first impression..as time went on, I came to understand why you felt certain things..and have the right to. Here you are once again making that clear to all on your feelings of cd's..both positive and negative..

So I hope you find the answers or at least explainations of this intended thread..and even hope more that you continue to be a supporter of it.. even with those who post 'negative' comments (oh, wait, I'm one of those ;) )

Marissa

Sorry, wanted to clarify..I know your bitterness is not towards cd's..just the type of person you were with who happened to be a cd. Thanks.

[Amanda22]

This is one of the most interesting threads in a long time. Beats the old, worn out, "why does society hate crossdressers" (it just does, accept it and move on), and "what color panties are you wearing" (who the hell cares?).

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Marissa,

I understand how tone and intent gets lost on the computer. I also understand that my out spokenness can be mistaken as bitter. I have always been blunt and spoke my mind and moved on about my business. Even people that know me IRL sometimes don't know how to take me and I have to clarify when I realize I've used a tone with them that they may have mistaken for anger. It is a blessing and a curse to be blunt.

I would probably be against all CD's if I hadn't had Brandi to talk me thorough some of this and help me realize that I cannot catagorize all Cd's or men by the rottenness of 1. I can completely see how some would mistake my comments as bitterness, but it's just me speaking my mind. Actually, I'm probably healthier b/c I can and do express myself. Others would hold it in and internalize it and blame themselves and I did do some of that for a time. Now, I only accept what I AM responsbile for in the relationship.

In Brandi's defense, I do believe that she comes to my defense b/c she feels somewhat protective toward me knowing this situation from behind the scenes from the beginning, and how bad it did become in the end. Brandi, is a huge (probably the biggest) reason I do not hate/judge all CD's. It is b/c I've healed to a degree that I could even come back on this site. I took several months away b/c I just wanted to forget the whole ordeal but that's not fair to myself or others who might be great friends. I am gradually getting back to normal. I realized that if I wasn't careful I was going to say things that would hurt those who are innocent and that has never been my intention. It's the concept if you fall off a horse you get up and get right back on or you will be afraid forever. I won't allow anyone to ever make me give up. Ain't happening.

This whole ordeal has shown me that I never want to go back to that place of vulnerablility again.

Also, what I have had to come to realize, and have stated before is that if you took CD'ing out of the picture, this man would still be a nasty person.

With the nature of my work, I cannot allow myself to become closed-minded about others. I also like being educated about other people, places, cultures, etc. Education is power.

[Marissa]

Wsprs, I can not say it enough of how your past relationship and realizations are so similiar to what I have gone through..and as you say, it really has nothing to do with dressing..its the person..the sacrifices and what we allowed to occur..something that as you said, won't happen again :) I am leary of women at this stage, but in time, I know I will heal and realize its not ALL..it was one.

And also..as you stated, Brandi knows the WHOLE story and your ordeals..so how are others to fully understand without that information..and then add as you state "outspokeness can be taken as bitter"?????? Yet, they are placed against the wall..labeled 'negative' and shot... ;)

The topic is a good one, unfortunately, it seems no gg's who experienced the same are here or may never had been... :(

I commend you for not just turning your back on all of this.. but I would ask that you consider these two points I'm making in future discussions so someones views are not clouded..

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Yet, they are placed against the wall..labeled 'negative' and shot... ;)[/B[B][COLOR

I don't understand this comment as I don't think I've labled anyone negative or tried to "shoot" anyone here for anything they have said or expressed.

[BRANDYJ]

This is one of the most interesting threads in a long time. Beats the old, worn out, "why does society hate crossdressers" (it just does, accept it and move on), and "what color panties are you wearing" (who the hell cares?).

I can't agree more Amanda. I couild not have said it better. The whole idea of telling others what color panties I'm wearing is just gross to me. I don't even ask or tell my SO what color panties I'm wearing. And if we have to ask why society hates crossdressers, well...then we have had our head in the sand most of our lives.
sure, we might wish we were openly accepted by society, but the reality is that it is what it is. End of story.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

BrandY, (sorry been spelling your name wrong)

You bring up another good point about society's acceptance. It seems like all of the anger of society not being accepted got unleashed on me. Maybe it is b/c he felt secure knowing he could vent b/c he knew I would understand or not judge, IDK. However, I can't name the times that it seems like the anger he felt at society got projected onto me.

I'm sure glad I don't have to give account of what color mine are b/c half the time I couldn't remember.

Funny story...I was half way to work one day back when I, worked in an office and, wore dresses/skirts. It occured to me that I had forgotten to put mine on. That's just ONE of the crazy things I've done over my lifetime. :laughing:

[BRANDYJ]

BrandY, (sorry been spelling your name wrong)

You bring up another good point about society's acceptance. It seems like all of the anger of society not being accepted got unleashed on me. Maybe it is b/c he felt secure knowing he could vent b/c he knew I would understand or not judge, IDK. However, I can't name the times that it seems like the anger he felt at society got projected onto me.

Wsprs, knowing what i know and the details you have shared with me and only scratched the surface in what you shared here with everyone else, I have to agree with you. He never accepted blame of fault for anything that went wrong between the two of you. You know, most crossdressers would give most anything to have a woman that not only accepted and participated with love and understanding as you did, he surely never appreciated that simple rare quality you offered him. Let me just say, that even if he was not a CD, he would not be the kind of person I could ever call a friend. His total lack of respect, compassion and understanding of anyone else's needs but his own is not the kind of person I want to know, let alone befriend.

I have to say, that as much as I admire and respect our dear ReineD, and 99.9% of the time I agree with all she has to say on most any issue she has ever commented on. But knowing you and knowing so much about your relationship with this guy from the start, I can't even begin to think you made mistakes to cause the end of the relationship. I think the only mistake you made was staying in that relationship when the red flags started popping up as early as 3-6 months of seeing him. Even those that might have negative things to say about how you handled yourself while in the relationship and even now that it is thankfully over, would never suggest you did anything wrong to cause the door being slammed in his face. If I had my way, it would have been more then the door slammed into his face. OK, call me bitter now. But it angers me to see any human being using and emotionally abusing another. He did just that with no remorse.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I think the only mistake you made was staying in that relationship when the red flags started popping up as early as 3-6 months of seeing him.

You are right about that and we've discussed that. I take full responsibility in NOT listening to my first instincts and bailing, let alone the fact that I should have never agreed to date him in the first place. The flags came way before the 3-6 month mark. Women to him are nothing more than notches in his bedpost. I also take responsibility for trying to put it back together several times when I should have thanked God sooner that it was over and forever shut him out, as I have done.

It was emotional, mental and verbal abuse.

BTW, let me ask you all something else. How many lies would someone have to tell you before you didn't trust them any more? His comment to me when I caught him in a lie was "it was just one little lie." How many lies, in your opinions, does it take. It was as if he was saying it was just one can't you wait til they all add up before you get mad? Lets go back to the Garden of Eden, how many lies did Satan have to tell Adam and Eve before they got throw out? Umm, as I recall, just one.

That was the only ONE that I knew of for sure, at that time. There were others and I am sure many more that I never knew about.

Oh, and here is a good one. He told me he could never find a church to go to in his hometown b/c he couldn't be in church with all those people that he knew who were hypocrites. I was looking at him thinking "please go b/c there's always room for one more."

But the good thing is that someday when this guy is old and laying on his death bed, I am sure he will have found that perfect mistress to stand over him and tell him how much she wants to humiliate him. I mean when it's all said and done that's what's really important right? <Please interject sarcasm here. Snicker> :laughing:

[Marissa]

I don't understand this comment as I don't think I've labled anyone negative or tried to "shoot" anyone here for anything they have said or expressed.

LOL...whspr, you are right that you did neither of those things so its understandable that I was not referring to you.. when threads gets such long responses, it can be hard to remember or catch all.. I was just trying to show that mistakes and misconceptions are made very easily and a wild fire starts.

I have said you have no blame for leaving the relationship..and did all you could.. think I have said all I can offer as I don't have a gg's perspective or an SO at this time. Good luck in discovering yourself as you disect what has occured and learn from it all.. :)

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Marissa,

Thanks for the clarification.

Sounds as if you have had your own negative experiences but I'm glad to see you say that you know you will heal and move on again. With that attitude I'm sure you will find everything you want/need in a partner.

[SamanthaS]

I would never put this above someone I loved.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Samantha,

That is good to know. I don't think anything should come before someone we love no matter what it is.

[Sophie86]

How important to you is the comfort level of your GG's?

My wife is a worrier. She always has an eye on the worst case scenario. I can be a bit of a nervous nelly myself about some things, but between the two of us, I am the one who is more often in favor of throwing caution to the wind. My job is to get her to step out of her comfort zone on occasion, and her job is to keep me from being stupid. That's our dynamic. So I have to pay attention to her comfort level, but I don't have to roll over for it. If she's at DEFCON 5 or 4, that's pretty normal. Full speed ahead. At DEFCON 3, we're negotiating, and I will have to make serious adjustments to my plans. At DEFCON 2 or 1, I don't even try it.

Example: I've gotten very brave lately about rocking my painted toenails in public. I'm out and about in flip-flops & sparkly nail polish quite a bit, and she hasn't said a word against it. The other day, though, we had a function to go to with our son. I had thought earlier about whether to put on shoes, or just wear my flip-flops. I went back and forth on it a little, had a moment of rebelliousness where I thought to hell with those people, and then kind of put it on the backburner. I was doing something right up to the time we needed to leave, so I had to rush a little to get ready. When I went to grab my shoes, it was easier to just go ahead with flip-flops, so I did. When I got into the car, she saw the toes, and said, "You're not wearing shoes?? YOU CAN'T GO UP THERE LIKE THAT!!" I was taken aback by her reaction, since she hadn't said anything before. We were already running late. I asked if she wanted me to go change shoes, and she said, "No, I'll just take him by myself." I hadn't really wanted to go in the first place, but I knew it was a bad idea to make her go alone, so I hesitated. She said, "It's okay. Don't worry about it." So I got out, and they left. I went straight inside, put on shoes, and hopped in my van to follow them. I called her on the way and told her I'd be there right behind her. She said that she was afraid she'd upset me by being so abrubt. I told her that I did feel a little like a puppy that had been hit with a rolled up newspaper, but I acknowledged that she was right: Our son shouldn't have to deal with his peers making fun of him about his daddy's toenails. She said it wasn't necessary for me to go to the function, but I knew that it pleased her that I wasn't going to saddle her with doing that alone. Situation diffused.


What if she refused to participate at all but did not hold you back or expect you to stop as long as you didn't include her? Would the fact that she loved you and accepted you be enough or do you feel you have to find that person who can fill all of your needs as a CD to be content?

I'm not sure if this answers that question, but if I thought that she considered me ridiculous, ugly, or bizarre, my desire to dress would shrivel. I need something more than grudging tolerance in order to feel good about what I do. Bottom line: For me, dressing is optional, but being married to her isn't.

[5150 Girl]

When my unsuportive ex left me, (mainly for finachial reasons) I vowed as soon as I was ready to get back on the perverbial horse that I would be open and honest about this side of me from the start, before any emotional investment. The day I hooked up with my Polar Bear, I was playing Sarah Palin for Holoween. (Doesn't get more open than that) And when my PB goes home to be with Jesus, (bad heart for starters) I will again, be open from the start. I think I have proven honesty saves a lot of time and trouble

[BRANDYJ]

Sophie, your account of the flip flops was a good example of how we all should try to please our SO's. Thanks for sharing that story. No wonder I like you so much friend! I especially like your last sentence. Sad to think that many think the marriage ios an option and the dressing is not.

[t-girlxsophie]

Every now and again my Lovely Wife,will suggest something new that we could do together (the latest being en femme day on our upcoming holiday) sometimes I feel she has more courage than me,she even has sugested I become more visual near home (gulp!)

Sorry if this seems cliched but she is my Rock,her understanding and acceptance of Sophie overwhelms me,I feel together we are as strong as can be,we have her Illness to contend with atm but even that just makes us together all the stronger.I am so very lucky to have her in my life.If I started to take her for granted,and go off and do my own thing without a thought for her,then I would be throwing away the best person,the greatest part of my life,and that doesn't bear thinking about

Sophie

[WsprsOnTheWind]

For me, dressing is optional, but being married to her isn't.

Sophie86, that pretty much says it all for me. Now THERE is a true fairytale love story. This line gives me so much hope. When everyone in any relationship looks at their partner and says the rest of the world is an option but our relationship is not then we will have lasting relationships.

You cannot know how much seeing you post that one line means to me.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

What if she refused to participate at all but did not hold you back or expect you to stop as long as you didn't include her? Would the fact that she loved you and accepted you be enough or do you feel you have to find that person who can fill all of your needs as a CD to be content?

My needs as a CD are my needs as a person. I wear women's clothing on a multiple times a week basis, as my regular clothes. So for me, a partner who had a "as long as you don't include me" rule would actually be holding me back, but more importantly, would not be very happy with me as a partner, I don't think.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

What if your partner was into painting, sewing, biking or some interest that you weren't into? Wouldn't you still encourage her to participate in it? If your SO wasn't in the picture you will still be a CD so how could her not participating hold you back. The only way I can see you being held back is if she was telling you to totally stop doing it period.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

What if your partner was into painting, sewing, biking or some interest that you weren't into? Wouldn't you still encourage her to participate in it? If your SO wasn't in the picture you will still be a CD so how could her not participating hold you back. The only way I can see you being held back is if she was telling you to totally stop doing it period.

Here's the difference, I CD in my day to day life. Painting/sewing/biking are all things one specifically sets aside time to do. There are some people on this board for whom CDing is like that as well, and that's how I was before I came out. But now, I'm out, I'm openly a CD. While I do still wear men's clothes, I do it interchangeably with women's clothes. Aside from when I'm at work at my day-job and have to dress according to my store's dress codes, I spend a good chunk of my life wearing skirts and tights and makeup and such. That's just how I dress now. See my avatar? That's a picture of me doing stand up comedy, my career, in a dress.

So, a SO who refused to be involved with my crossdressing would either want to not be around me for the majority of my free time, or want me to put myself at least partially back in the closet so to speak. Neither option sounds like the makings of a very healthy relationship, for her or me.

It'd be like if I met a girl who was really into her tattoos and showing them off, and I said "Well I'm fully supportive of your tattoos and your need to get more of them and show them to people, but please, don't ask me to be involved when you do."

[Sophie86]

So, a SO who refused to be involved with my crossdressing would either want to not be around me for the majority of my free time, or want me to put myself at least partially back in the closet so to speak. Neither option sounds like the makings of a very healthy relationship, for her or me.

I agree, and I want to add that when I say that that dressing is optional, I mean it's optional for me. I know that I've gone for long periods without having any desire to dress at all, and I'm sure I could get my head back into that place if I needed to. I know it's different for other folks, though, and I don't think they are wrong for saying, as JToR does, that crossdressing must be a part of their lives.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

I don't think it's wrong for anyone to say that either however you cannot hold it against anyone who wouldn't want to be that wrapped up in someone else's lifestyle if they didn't want to participate in it 24/7. I know as a GG I certainly didn't want it all the time and it was shoved at me to the degree that I was turned against it. I'm sure there are those that wouldn't be opposed to it but even I don't want to participate in all things 24/7.

As Sophie, said dressing for her is an option and that would be the same for the GG's participation level. It would be an option.

[Genifer Teal]

Paramount! If she doesn't like me, she will not want to be my partner and vice versa. Guess it would be different if some how she met my boy side first but that would be un likely.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Also, if she was your spouse for many years and you had kept your dressing secret and told her and she felt she wanted no part of it then you would have to be willing to live with the loss if she didn't want to fully participate.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I don't think it's wrong for anyone to say that either however you cannot hold it against anyone who wouldn't want to be that wrapped up in someone else's lifestyle if they didn't want to participate in it 24/7. I know as a GG I certainly didn't want it all the time and it was shoved at me to the degree that I was turned against it. I'm sure there are those that wouldn't be opposed to it but even I don't want to participate in all things 24/7.

I wouldn't hold it against them but I also wouldn't consider them an ideal SO. however, saying "not 24/7" isn't the same as you originally asked. The most recent girl I dated told me she was fine with me dressing in skirts when we were hanging out, going out on dates, and all that, but if I was meeting her near her work she asked me if I'd wear pants and no makeup because while she was fine with it, she knew her boss and coworkers wouldn't be. I was totally sympathetic to that and obliged her.

But that's a very different thing than saying she never wanted to be involved. Such a person and I wouldn't be a good match.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

That is why I feel it is so important to let your potential SO know early on so that you can both be fair to each other and move on if it's not going to be the right thing.