Discrimination

[jamie_44]

Hi All,
I am way past my real life test and living as a female full time. I was downsized last March of 2010. I have had a very difficult time finding employment in my area. (discrimination...?) I am adding text of what occurred to me yesterday.


I received a phone call on my cell phone at 11:06 am on Friday April 15th 2011 from Theoris Engineering . I have been unemployed for the past year and they saw my resume saying it looked like a good fit for a firm on the northwest side of Indianapolis, near Pike. I was informed of the requirements and I answered that I was fully capable of performing all the tasks mentioned. I was then asked if I could come to their office this afternoon for a meeting at 2:00pm. I told them I could make the meeting as I did not have any conflicts. I then told the person that I must mention I am a male to female transgender individual and I live as female full time. I was then told thanks for being honest but there is no reason to proceed any further with this case. I told them that I present myself in a professional manner and do not look like a comedian in drag. I told them of my very experienced skill set as a Controls Engineer with 25 years experience. I was told the company would not be interested in me because of my transgender status.

Where do I turn for help?

[Michelle.M]

Why did you feel compelled to tell them of your TG status?

Here's a similar case. Check your state laws, you might have a legal remedy.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Health/story?id=5843396&page=1

[Pythos]

If you have this in writing, submit it to the ACLU. This was a pure sign of discrimination.

Michelle.Martin, why should she not feel compelled? On this forum are we not often talking about being out there and honest? She has every right to explain her situation, and did the right thing. Those jerks at that potential job pulled discrimination, and should face the piper for it.

[Katesback]

If you enjoy being a tranny by all means go ahead and tell everyone that your a tranny. I mean why not. You might also want to tell them every little secret you have just for extra punch.

One of the hardest things trans people have to lean is to keep thier mouths shut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are a woman then be a woman. If you are a tranny then good luck!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. If you are living full time as you say and have not changed your name and documentation then you might as well just hang up your hat. I would have reservations hireing a good number of trans people because they dont know how to keep thier mouths shut. Employers hire a person to do a job nothing more and nothing less. Being transgender has nothing to do with you doing a job but if you mention your trans then it very likely will and they in thier minds see the circus comming to town if they hire you the tranny.

KAtie

[Jorja]

If you enjoy being a tranny by all means go ahead and tell everyone that your a tranny. I mean why not. You might also want to tell them every little secret you have just for extra punch.

One of the hardest things trans people have to lean is to keep thier mouths shut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are a woman then be a woman. If you are a tranny then good luck!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. If you are living full time as you say and have not changed your name and documentation then you might as well just hang up your hat. I would have reservations hireing a good number of trans people because they dont know how to keep thier mouths shut. Employers hire a person to do a job nothing more and nothing less. Being transgender has nothing to do with you doing a job but if you mention your trans then it very likely will and they in thier minds see the circus comming to town if they hire you the tranny.

KAtie

Well Kate that is simply BS. I have thirty m2f girls and 2 gay guys working for me. They are some of the hardest working, dedicated, honest people I have ever hired. There is no reason they should have to keep thier mouth shut anymore than the next person. Yes a company hires a person to do a job but it does not matter if they are straight, gay, bisexual, m2f, f2m as long as they have the skills and knowledge and credentials to do the job.

Jamie44 has incured a case of discrimination plain and simple. It may not be legally discrimination by the laws of the state she is in but that is what has happened. I would suggest to Jamie that if she is living full time she should go and have her name and all of her documentation legally changed. I would also ask for a letter from the company detailing why she was denied employment. Then as previously mentioned, a trip to the ACLU may be in order.

[Pythos]

"I would have reservations hireing a good number of trans people because they dont know how to keep thier mouths shut"

Kate, once again, who the hell's side are you on? You are a transexual. Yes I know you consider yourself a woman, and more power to you, but you are a woman that came into this world as a male. How would you like it if there was a law or unwritten rule that said transexuals COULD NOT change their assigned sex on the paperwork? AND that the fact they are trans could be grounds to have jobs and livlihoods denied them?

Great maker Kate, LOOK AT WHAT YOU WROTE!!! "keep their mouths shut?" What the hell does that mean? Okay, I'll work with this. So if a hetero individual cannot shut up about his wife and or kids are you going to not hire them? Employers hire people to do a job, but you know what else they hire? HUMAN BEINGS!!! You know, people that have lives outside of the job, and people that like to converse about said lives.

You just seem to want people to follow your narrow rules, and think people that don't do as you did (fully transition) to hide what they do, as if it is some kind of crime, or sick perverted thing that should remain behind the closed doors of the bedroom.

"Being transgender has nothing to do with you doing a job but if you mention your trans then it very likely will and they in thier minds see the circus comming to town if they hire you the tranny."

This is only because notions such as the one you seem to support continue to prevail in our society. Hide. Hide who you are, and let those that are truly circus freaks gives CD ers a bad name.

Jorga, What you say is true. People can be m2fs and open and still be damned good workers, just like there are "regular" people that are absolutely horrible workers. But I have to say if you have m2f and gays working where you are, and you can see that they are good workers, you prove Katesback's assessment to be what it truly is. And you started your post with those initials.

[Aprilrain]

Yes, we should be able to be honest about our past but why bring it up to people who don't need to know, before they ever meet you? Your medico-biological history is your personal private information. I fully intend to "keep my mouth shut" to employers and other people who's business it is NOT that i've had certain surgeries. I'm pretty sure it's obvious that I'm a transwoman but I still don't go advertising it. Getting a job theses days is hard enough, why shoot yourself in the foot?

Pythos, I understand stand where you are coming from and look forward to a day when being trans is a lot like being gay. In fact this is largely the reaction I've had so far however let me ask you this, how out are YOU!? does your employer know you are transgendered? Do the conservative macho men out at the airport know? do you go to all your family functions dressed how you'd like to be dressed or do you only allow certain people to know because this makes your life easier or possible?

Its one thing to theorize about how we should all be treated equally but the reality is, like you said, we're human so accepting that bigotry, hate and fear are out there means coming up with day to day survival tactics. Natal women learn these skills early, often the hard way, by ignoring the baser side of MANkind and having it bite them in the ass!

[AKAMichelle]

As a business owner and consultant for other companies, I can tell you that most people don't understand. They view TG people as disruptive to the company and avoid them like the plague.

The hardest part of transitioning is having a job during those awkard years of transition. f you want to successfully navigate your life as a woman, then telling others about it does cause issues. You will be accepted unless you give them the facts. I think a name change and document change is required at minimum to hold a job as a female. The sooner you can complete the process the better.

Nothing will ever happen about this discrimination because it was over the phone. It is their word against yours. It causes you to look like an activist which will make it harder for you to get a job. Nobody wants to hire an activist. The best advice I can give you is to get your ducks in a row and keep fighting. It won't be easy because of the economy but eventually it will happen and you had better be ready for the next opportunity. The next time keep your status quiet until they offer a job to you in writing. Then you have legal recourse if they change, but it is nobody's business. You are a woman so don't put additional labels on it. Enjoy your new status and make sure you have completed everything to make you hireable.

I am sorry that it had to happen, but you can use it as a learning experience that will prepare you for your dream job. Good luck to you.

[Pythos]

"They view TG people as disruptive to the company and avoid them like the plague. "

This is a sad fact. And one that is one that only ignorant, non open minded people subscribe to. You do know it was thought for a woman to be disruptive in the workplace, or to a lesser extent, a black man.

I know Jewish people that are very up front about their religion. They are not limited, and frankly it is none of my business what religion they are. But, businesses are not allowed to use the only "they are disruptive" argument to deny hiring. My take is, if it does not affect job performance OF THE INDIVIDUAL, (in other words if others are disturbed for someone with a different sense of style, then the ones being bothered are the ones with the problem), then frankly it should not matter.

[Steph.TS]

reports like this scare me, is the world really ready for people like me to transition? how difficult will life be after transitioning with discrimination, or even during transitioning? it's places like that, that keep the boogeyman alive scaring everyone so they don't feel like they can or should go out dressed...

[Michelle.M]

Michelle.Martin, why should she not feel compelled? . . . She has every right to explain her situation, and did the right thing.

Sweetie, let's not get our knickers in a twist. Of course she has a right to do whatever she wants.

I just asked a simple question. If there was some sort of advantage to disclosing her status then this might be helpful to others. If she felt that the particular circumstances of the moment dictated that she needed to reveal more details about her life than any other job candidate, that might also be helpful to other job seekers.

While I do believe that you should always tell the truth, not all truth must be told. In this country there are certain things that a potential employer can't ask for legal reasons (age, marital status, religious background, etc), and in a tough job market you might not want to reveal that, for example, you're over 50 when you look younger and stand a good chance of being hired.

Honesty is not always the best policy. Would a natal woman (or anyone, for that matter) volunteer information that she'd had a boob job, successfully beat drug addiction, had multiple divorces in their past or had given a child from an extramarital affair up for adoption? I don't think so, particularly if these things had no bearing on the job.

If you wish to be 100% out that's your business, but you simply can't require that of everyone else just because that's your philosophy. Many TG women are selectively out, or even deep stealth, for some very good reasons. This might be one of them.

[Stephenie S]

For goodness sake, dear. Why ever did you bring up your TG status????

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

As Kate said, if you are a woman, then act like one. If you are dedicated to remaining a "tranny", then you are going to have a hard time finding a job.

Look. Some things are just nobody's business.

"Oh, by the way, I happen to be Baptist. Will that be a problem?"

"Oh, by the way, I'm African American. Will that be a problem?"

"Oh, by the way, I'm left handed. Will that be a problem?"

"Oh, by the way, I happen to be gay. Will that be a problem?"

If these things don't effect your job performance, keep your mouth shut. Want to be "out and proud"? OK, but employers want someone who will concentrate on the job at hand. If you think your religion, color, gender history, sexual preference, or whatever is important enough to bring up in a pre-interview phone call, you may not be ready to concentrate on the job.

Jus' sayin'.

Stephie

[kellycan27]

I don't often agree with Kate, but in this case. I do, to a point. I think that I might word it a bit differently. I can picture the employer worrying about the reprocussions that hiring a transsexual. Problems with other employees, or clients just to name a couple. Maybe even problems with the transsexuals themselves, due to what they are personally going through. It's a business, and businesses are about making money. These things may or may not happen,but why take the risk? I agree that it shouldn't have to do with anything but the person's ability to do the job, and I agree that it is discrimination. Why open a can of worms, when one might possibly avoid doing so? It's really a sad state of affairs, but hey life's a bitch, and then you die.
Kate is often "outspoken" to say the least, but if you calm down, and look past her gruff attitude you might understand what she's saying.
Wouldn't it be nice if the world was an accepting place, but since it isn't we have to do what we can to survive. It's truly unfair, and a very sad state of affairs, but given the climate of today's society we are stuck between a rock and a hard spot. In theory you are all pretty much spot on with your views, in reality you're a million miles away. Until attitudes and laws are changed to protect us we're pretty much at the mercy of those who will judge us. You can stand up and take your lumps, or you can somewhat conform, and get by. It's not right, it's discriminatory, it's morally wrong, but........... it's reality, and reality is where we live right here and now. Kate isn't being holier than thou, kate is slapping you in the face with the real world as it stands.

[Aprilrain]

reports like this scare me, is the world really ready for people like me to transition? how difficult will life be after transitioning with discrimination, or even during transitioning? it's places like that, that keep the boogeyman alive scaring everyone so they don't feel like they can or should go out dressed...

I couldn't wait for the world. Anyway most places I go people are polite and friendly, it helps ME that I have a pretty good presentation and reasonably passable voice (that I worked on) I carry myself with confidence but also assume that people can tell I'm trans. This is the best I can do, I want to do it and it works for me. Jen, honey, PLEASE tell me that you dress before going out! not being dressed is still illegal in most states.

These employers aren't "boogeymen" there just your average ignorant people who are looking for the easiest hire they can find. Companies exist to earn a profit for their owners or share holders not to employ workers. If they could earn a profit without the overhead of workers they would, hence automation and Jobs moving overseas (less overhead). So telling them your trans is like saying "yeah I can do the job but it's going to cost you" this is NOT what they what to hear. Life stops being fair sometime around kindergarten its up to the individual to make him or herself as hirable as possible and not advertising your Jerry-Springer-esque background is desirable. Think about it Jerry Springer is probably the closest most people ever get to a transperson, would you hire that!

[Katesback]

It is ok go aheard and be a tranny and have fun!

By the way I never said that trans people could not do a good job. You and the other girl might want to go back are carefully read my post instead of getting all worked up and jumping to conclusions.

I clearly said that if you want to be a tranny then that is fine but good luck. I also said if you are a woman then be a woman and keep your mouth shut about being a tranny. These are not difficult concepts to understand.


KAtie


"I would have reservations hireing a good number of trans people because they dont know how to keep thier mouths shut"

Kate, once again, who the hell's side are you on? You are a transexual. Yes I know you consider yourself a woman, and more power to you, but you are a woman that came into this world as a male. How would you like it if there was a law or unwritten rule that said transexuals COULD NOT change their assigned sex on the paperwork? AND that the fact they are trans could be grounds to have jobs and livlihoods denied them?

Great maker Kate, LOOK AT WHAT YOU WROTE!!! "keep their mouths shut?" What the hell does that mean? Okay, I'll work with this. So if a hetero individual cannot shut up about his wife and or kids are you going to not hire them? Employers hire people to do a job, but you know what else they hire? HUMAN BEINGS!!! You know, people that have lives outside of the job, and people that like to converse about said lives.

You just seem to want people to follow your narrow rules, and think people that don't do as you did (fully transition) to hide what they do, as if it is some kind of crime, or sick perverted thing that should remain behind the closed doors of the bedroom.

"Being transgender has nothing to do with you doing a job but if you mention your trans then it very likely will and they in thier minds see the circus comming to town if they hire you the tranny."

This is only because notions such as the one you seem to support continue to prevail in our society. Hide. Hide who you are, and let those that are truly circus freaks gives CD ers a bad name.

Jorga, What you say is true. People can be m2fs and open and still be damned good workers, just like there are "regular" people that are absolutely horrible workers. But I have to say if you have m2f and gays working where you are, and you can see that they are good workers, you prove Katesback's assessment to be what it truly is. And you started your post with those initials.

[AKAMichelle]

"They view TG people as disruptive to the company and avoid them like the plague. "

This is a sad fact. And one that is one that only ignorant, non open minded people subscribe to. You do know it was thought for a woman to be disruptive in the workplace, or to a lesser extent, a black man.

I know Jewish people that are very up front about their religion. They are not limited, and frankly it is none of my business what religion they are. But, businesses are not allowed to use the only "they are disruptive" argument to deny hiring. My take is, if it does not affect job performance OF THE INDIVIDUAL, (in other words if others are disturbed for someone with a different sense of style, then the ones being bothered are the ones with the problem), then frankly it should not matter.

People have their preceived ignorance and they aren't going to change. Just like many employers won't hire TG people they won't hire Goths either. They want everyone to act and perform like little robots. Do their job and never cause trouble. Anything they see as requiring additional work on them, they will avoid it. Some changes must be done via laws, but most of the changes happen in the grassroots. In the trenches we are able to show those who pay attention that we are just like anybody else. We work hard and just want to live our lives.

It is always best to conform to the company if you want a job. I guess that is why I couldn't work in corporate america. I hate 3 piece suits with the white shirt and tie. I have walked away from several consulting jobs where they told me how to dress and act. But if you want to work as an employee then a certain amount of the sucking up is required.

P.S. It is discrimination and it happens everyday. You can cry foul and stomp your feets but in the end nothing will change. Sometimes you have to find a way through the crap to just get by unnoticed. I think is why so many TS people leave the community in the end. They don't anybody seeing them as different.

[Jessinthesprings]

If you enjoy being a tranny by all means go ahead and tell everyone that your a tranny. I mean why not. You might also want to tell them every little secret you have just for extra punch.

One of the hardest things trans people have to lean is to keep thier mouths shut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are a woman then be a woman. If you are a tranny then good luck!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. If you are living full time as you say and have not changed your name and documentation then you might as well just hang up your hat. I would have reservations hireing a good number of trans people because they dont know how to keep thier mouths shut. Employers hire a person to do a job nothing more and nothing less. Being transgender has nothing to do with you doing a job but if you mention your trans then it very likely will and they in thier minds see the circus comming to town if they hire you the tranny.

KAtie

Your words are harsh but 100% true. Go there be yourself and let them put 2 and 2 together. If you live full time then that is who you are. Can you still be discriminated against? More than likely, but at least you have not shot yourself in your own foot.

[gretchen2]

I do not believe in hiding who I am, but I sure am not going to advertise. I do keep my mouth shut and if some asks about me then they have a small chance that I will talk to them about me.

[Areyan]

i dun have experience to speak of with post-op life but i do love a person who is in mid-transition and i know she dreams of a day when she doesn't have to tell people she is a TS woman at all, but just allow them to assume her as female.

Katesback has a point here and i think she is right. i can't really add more except to say that i agree with the fact that no one wants to hire someone who brings up the fact that they are trans. i really do agree with the reality that you either live as a "tranny" or strive to be a woman after transition is over. i am in agreement that the world is not cool with transgendered people or those who are loudly and openly transitioning. perhaps it isn't fair but it's life. as Kelly also stated above, until the world "gets with the program" and accepts trans folk as somewhat normal it won't change anytime soon.

also AKAMichelle is right too in that declaring your gender identity is a risk when seeking work if you haven't met your employer. sorry, Jamie, i think the girls are right and you might need to chalk this one up as an experience with lesson learned. good luck on your job hunt, i hope you do find something, it sounds like you're quite skilled.

[christinac]

Jamie44 has incured a case of discrimination plain and simple. It may not be legally discrimination by the laws of the state she is in but that is what has happened. I would suggest to Jamie that if she is living full time she should go and have her name and all of her documentation legally changed. I would also ask for a letter from the company detailing why she was denied employment. Then as previously mentioned, a trip to the ACLU may be in order.

I couldn't agree more. I'd also file a formal complaint with the Bureau of Labor Relations in your state even if it isn't legally discrimination in your state yet.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

be smart everybody...it's business...nobody gives a shit about "who you are on the inside"....you are dealing with other people and their livelihoods...
the legalities of a ts persons right vs the real life implications of working are totally and completely different
this is regardless of fair/unfair, and regardless of local or even federal laws.

telling people you are transsexual is the kiss of death and there is nothing about that will change in the next 500 years.. you can't trust cisgendered people with this info....people lie to our faces ALL THE TIME.
if you have transitioned on the job, you are in the best position to work as an out transsexual...those situations are usually different, and people with the guts and courage to transition at a job usually are smart enough to figure out that the less you say the better..and they get the chance to prove with hard work and effective work that they belong..

It is INCREDIBLY POOR JUDGEMENT to out yourself right away..

pls remember this is about business..business is about conformity, making good judgements, working with people on common goals etc.. people do not go to work to "express who they are"...when i was a boss, if someone came to me with that kind of crap, i'd say who cares, how are you doing at your job...if a woman comes in 5inch heels, or a guy comes in with 3 earrings...they are saying to the boss.. i care more about myself and expressing myself then your business goals...that's the wrong answer in every business situation.
suing people, filing complaints, calling politicians and all the bladdy blah blah might make you feel better, and it might even get you some kind of protection or satisfaction, but once you do that , it's the end of your career.. and you better be sure to make it count..

go to your interview, be confident.. if it comes up , then you have to deal with it, but the less you say the better, if it comes up you have ONE CHANCE to make it a non-issue by making that interviewer feel that it's a non issue.

[Sharon]

I would have gone to the interview and even then only opened my mouth about being trans if they asked about it. People can imagine all sorts of weird and ignorant things about the transgendered because they don't know any better. The least an interview will do is to show you are a genuine normal working person and not some sort of freak.


"Oh, by the way, I happen to be Baptist. Will that be a problem?"
"Oh, by the way, I'm African American. Will that be a problem?"
"Oh, by the way, I'm left handed. Will that be a problem?"
"Oh, by the way, I happen to be gay. Will that be a problem?"
If these things don't effect your job performance, keep your mouth shut

Exactly!

[Pythos]

So it would seem the idea is that if the op had been quiet about their nature, and just showed up to the interview looking how they wished would have been a better course.

Actually I find this to be a good way of doing it. Show up with no kind of notification of your nature.

I wonder how that would have gone.

[Schatten Lupus]

You can try here, http://www.intraa.org/ but with this being Indiana, what they done is perfectly legal within our state.
And as others have mentioned, that is usually best left not mentioned.

[Melody Moore]

I too am of the belief, don't tell them unless they ask, but I will always make a point to record all telephone calls
& interviews in case discrimination does occur because it's easier to build a legal case should the need ever arise
if I was discriminated against. I know its a pain to have to take that type of action but we also need to protect
ourselves & stand up for our legal rights.

[Felicity71]

I too am of the belief, don't tell them unless they ask, but I will always make a point to record all telephone calls
& interviews in case discrimination does occur because it's easier to build a legal case should the need ever arise
if I was discriminated against. I know its a pain to have to take that type of action but we also need to protect
ourselves & stand up for our legal rights. Ehhh thats not going to get you a job. It just shows the employer your paranoid.

[Steph.TS]

I too am of the belief, don't tell them unless they ask, but I will always make a point to record all telephone calls
& interviews in case discrimination does occur because it's easier to build a legal case should the need ever arise
if I was discriminated against. I know its a pain to have to take that type of action but we also need to protect
ourselves & stand up for our legal rights.
problem with that is some contries/states/provinces etc... require you to inform people that you are going to be recording them...

[7sisters]

Jamie, hi... Bless you and dont be depressed. We all make little slips at interviews. Learn from it and move on. Forgive yourself and trust that there is a much better job in store for you.
So you are a lady, regardless of body parts you were born a lady and always will be one and so you dress like a lady. How is that unusual, my friend! No need for announcements.
I'm personally relieved that you found out what those potential employers were like before hand... it would have been hellish to work there in due course of time. Most probably you would have wanted to quit.
You are talented and you'll get a job sooner or later. Chin up!!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'm personally relieved that you found out what those potential employers were like before hand... it would have been hellish to work there in due course of time. Most probably you would have wanted to quit.

This is what makes all the laws and policies and protections total bs...

The crappy part of this to me is that when i see what we all go through to transition it demonstrates incredible courage, strength, determination and planning...who wouldn't want that at work??

even though i sound negative around this. i refuse to be negative...
also as full disclosure, my work position was executive level..i had the opportunity after leaving my original job to meet headhunters, lawyers, job counselors, personal coaches..some of the best...their advice was universal...
just do it...don't say anything, and if you are asked you are probably screwed....
the first 2 headhunters i met never called me back...
the lawyers actually said you legally don't have to answer any gender questions and they said the only way you'd win a case is to have tangible proof but that's of little help to us..

my best advice from a job counselor (which i am doing now) was pretty cool...she said that when i came in to meet her , for the first 20 mins she had no idea...it never occured to her that i was ts...i told her because she was helping me...she learned about me and what i did and about what transition was, and she said that since i had basically totally and completely reinvented myself to live a fulfillling life, why not do the same thing in my job life..

i really like that plan and i'm doing things like trying to invent a game i've been thinking of for years, i'm working in a used electronics store (ilove movies/games/etc), and i'm exploring a position helping older folks find assisted living space...all things i actually care about as opposed to crunching numbers and giving investor presentations... we all have different situations...if you didn't plan ahead and you don't have $$ , or if you are very young, those are added complications, but as my job counselor says,
"Cripes Kate, if you can change your frickin sex, you can probably do anything"

[Steph.TS]

"Cripes Kate, if you can change your frickin sex, you can probably do anything"

as much as this thread is a bit of a downer, I couldn't help be smile and laugh when i saw this, thank you :)

[Areyan]

as much as this thread is a bit of a downer, I couldn't help be smile and laugh when i saw this, thank you :)

you'll get there, Jen. i know it's hard to face transition as i'm looking at my own imminent changes. but i believe the advice given here was golden too. i like the idea of not saying a word, lol and just carrying on. good luck in your journey too, friend.

[AKAMichelle]

problem with that is some contries/states/provinces etc... require you to inform people that you are going to be recording them...

It wouldn't have mattered if you recorded them anyway. It wouldn't have led to a job and even if it did you wouldn't want to work for such ignorant jerks anyway. They would have gotten rid of you at the earliest chance.

[pamela_a]

I too am of the belief, don't tell them unless they ask, but I will always make a point to record all telephone calls
& interviews in case discrimination does occur because it's easier to build a legal case should the need ever arise
if I was discriminated against. I know its a pain to have to take that type of action but we also need to protect
ourselves & stand up for our legal rights.

I'm not sure of the laws in Australia but I believe in the US for a recorded conversation to be admissible in any court action both parties must give consent to the conversation being recorded.

To the OP. I love to disagree with Kate on some things but in this case I believe she is spot on. Any employer can refuse to hire you for any reason they choose, or for no reason at all. Don't give them anything more to consider other than all of the reasons you are perfect for the job and they would be fools to not hire you.

[TerryTerri]

Well, I don't know which states have some anti-discrimination policy as law. Federally the ENDA bill has yet to be passed. So, federally there is not a law that forbides an employer from being anti-discriminatory for a transgender.
However, the fedaral government itself has that policy. So, it is illegal to be discriminated against for employment with the federal government. I'm not sure how well enforced it is throughout the federal government. But, I work for a Bureau within the Department of Interior and I'll attest that they seem to take this policy in serious stride. Numerous policy letters and yearly mandatory training enforces the requirement, need and benefit from not discriminating against a person due to those kinds of things about the person. It does not seem to be just lip service. So, I recommend you look at www.usajobs.gov and see if the federal government has any jobs that fit your desires. Being an experienced engineer I wouldn't be surprised if several vacancies that fit your qualifications exist.
btw, although already employed, I have recently come out to my mangement about my intention to transition. All of them, first and foremost, ensured me of their responsibility to support, protect and not tolerate any disrecpect from fellow co-workers. Next, they seemed genuinely supportive and well, I just feel fortunate. Then again, I have been there for many years and have a good reputation and high demand for my work. I could be replaced. But, I don't think they want to replace me!

btw, I am a recoverying alcoholic and I have never hidden it from any of my employers since I got sober. But, I also don't bring it up during the job interview unless it is asked about. Once employed and drawing a paycheck is when I usually start to look for an appropriate time to mention being a recovering alcoholic. That is not an issue (same as being transgendered) that has a direct effect upon the production of work for which I am employed and therfore does not belong in the hiring process unless to not divulge it would be fraudulently deceptive.

Best of luck to you!!

[cara]

I have thirty m2f girls and 2 gay guys working for me. They are some of the hardest working, dedicated, honest people I have ever hired.
Wow! What type of business do you manage/own?
Cara

[Hope]

I HATE HATE HATE that you are making me agree with Kate on this...

You were obviously discriminated against, and that is not cool... in fact it is strait up bullpucky, though depending on your location it is probably legal.

I guess my biggest question is this - if you have been living full time for over a year (passed your RLT) why / how have you not changed your name? A potential employer should never have called looking for some one who uses your guy name, or identifies as a guy in any way what-so-ever. Your resume and cover letter and all your legal documents should all have your real name on it by now? Full time more than a year and you are still answering the phone with your guy name?

What is the hold-up? Get your ducks in a row.

You are past the point where you have to commit and do this. Or not. And either way is cool, but if you are going to do this for real, then do it for real. If you are not going to do this 100% then don't involve a potential employer, and certainly not before an interview.

[Victoria Anne]

I would recommend you contact the transgender law center (415)865-0176 good luck




admin note - phone number has been verified

[crystalann]

Well I live in Florida and have ALL my papers changed, and just found out when it comes to getting married in there eyes I am still MALE. And we have the marriage the license in hand. But if we get married the court will have an order to have it annulled. So here in the great state of Fla we face Discrimination each day. Best of luck:)

[donnalee]

Well I live in Florida and have ALL my papers changed, and just found out when it comes to getting married in there eyes I am still MALE. And we have the marriage the license in hand. But if we get married the court will have an order to have it annulled. So here in the great state of Fla we face Discrimination each day. Best of luck:)
Get married in a state that allows it. All states have reciprocity with each other since the marriage laws vary considerably for each; the result of the opposite would be chaos.

[pamela_a]

Well I live in Florida and have ALL my papers changed, and just found out when it comes to getting married in there eyes I am still MALE. And we have the marriage the license in hand. But if we get married the court will have an order to have it annulled. So here in the great state of Fla we face Discrimination each day. Best of luck:)

How if you have ALL of your id changed are you still considered male? Since my birth certificate et all is correct and properly identifies me as female I would dare anyone to try and tell me I'm male

[Zenith]

How if you have ALL of your id changed are you still considered male? Since my birth certificate et all is correct and properly identifies me as female I would dare anyone to try and tell me I'm male

Some states only amend the birth certificate. And in several conservative states even a post-op with an "F" certificate can be challenged and the marriage annulled based on "birth gender". That's why we have to keep fighting for ALL of our rights.

[crystalann]

As said here in the great state of Fla the law is based on statutes Kantaras VS Kantaras. Under current Fla case law, transgender marriages are void and NOT recognizes in Fla. And yes I have a New York birth Certificate and it states I am female, but as said under this law I am birth sex male! Then add Doma, The Federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) defines marriage as a legal union between one man and one woman for purposes of all federal laws, and provides that states need not recognize a marriage from another state if it is between persons of the same sex. 37 states have their own Defense of Marriage Acts (DOMAs), while 2 more states have strong language that defines marriage as one man and one woman. There are 30 states that have constitutional amendments protecting traditional marriage, including the three states (Arizona, California, and Florida) that passed constitutional amendments in November 2008.

[Midnight Skye]

I still think the really... really crappy reality right now is that some occupations are very hard on Trans people. And its bullcrap... but unfortunately its also life. Being out of work for a year though, that's rough reality.

I would avoid telling potential employers straight up that your trans... on one hand you might waste some extra time for those who do discriminate. On the other hand it SHOULD NOT MATTER. Which is to say, in this country it's not supposed to matter if you're blue, grey, black, white, lean a little to the left, or sometimes eat peanut butter and banana sandwiches.

By telling folks straight up about something as if it makes you distinctly different, it makes you different in their eyes. And that triggers reactions. I'm with Kate on tell them what makes you good for the job, show up for an interview and tell them what they need to know about why you can do the job.

Now the CRAPPY and I mean really crappy reality is many states leave us up the creek right now. In North Carolina I have no rights, what so ever. Some of your options though Jamie are to look for jobs out of state in places where employment is not screwed (sucky option but you might get a job). Another option is to look up company policies and try to find one with a transgender policy in place (the bucket for this is small but it does exist). The company I work for has this.

In your industry there might be a really weird problem going on, which is I'm assuming your job pool is mostly men, short on woman. But its white collar enough that they probably do have Woman and minority mandates. The problem is transgender folks don't fit in there anywhere (I don't know of any company that includes us in any manditory bucket ;) So one thing which may be happening is places are getting your resume and assuming they might be able to hire you and put +1 woman onboard. When they find out your trans, that just kind of blows that deal. I'm just guessing here but I imagine some of us have lost jobs due to horrible and strange things like this (and a billion other b#llsh#$%#$ reasons).

Huge hugs Jamie, I really hope things pan out because these kinds of things are just painful.