Is it legal

[susand262]

My last post was deleted because there are alot of threads on the subject. What i would like to know is "Is it legal to used the Ladies restroom when dressed?". Specifically in California.

[christinac]

Laws change from state to state, county to county, and from town to town. You will have to check the laws of the town you are in or going to be in. Beware because all towns have unenforced laws still on the books.

[susand262]

Thanks

Do you know how to check the law?

[Niya W]

Short answer is yes it's legal to use the womans bathroom.

[Steph.TS]

Thanks

Do you know how to check the law?
consult a lawyer on the town/county/state( or province)/country you happen to be in

[christinac]

Thanks

Do you know how to check the law?

I'm afraid that I don't really know. Are you familar with TS Roadmap? They may have a link to information on laws.

[Eryn]

You may find this document helpful:

http://transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/PIP%20Resource%20Guide.pdf

[msniki48]

Susan, can't speak for california...but all i can say is that......the only reason i stay in nj...is ....... i can go to the ladies room as niki ;)

[PretzelGirl]

Susan, can't speak for california...but all i can say is that......the only reason i stay in nj...is ....... i can go to the ladies room as niki ;)

The only reason? There is a whole world of bathrooms out here to test out! :heehee: Seriously though, I don't think there are that many places where it is illegal to use a bathroom that is aligned with your presentation. But you can get hassled anywhere as that doesn't require a law.

[christinac]

You may find this document helpful:

http://transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/PIP%20Resource%20Guide.pdf

Thank you Eryn, that is the link I was trying to think of.

[StaceyJane]

I know it's not legal in Texas, Dallas and Houston have separate ordinances allowing it but overall, no.

Of course because of that I have actually used the ladies room several times in the state capitol building.
Just my way of protesting.

[abbykins]

Fascinating link and document. Stacey, do you know about Austin?

[Eryn]

Fascinating link and document. Stacey, do you know about Austin?

Since the capitol is in Austin and Stacey mentioned that she was protesting by using the restroom in the state capitol I'd think that it isn't legal there.

Good for you, Stacey!

[Allana W]

Related to this subject, I have noticed that here in British Columbia, Canada that the highways department has begun adding a third washroom at highway rest stops. They are open, multiple occupancy washrooms with no lock on the door that are labeled: Men, women & disabled. I travel a lot on the highways for work, and every time I see one of these new washrooms I stop and use it just out of principle. I keep hoping a bus full of men and women will pull in to the rest stop so I can see if both men and women will use the same washroom at the same time... Preferably while I'm still in there!

Allana

[eluuzion]

hiya susan,

Here are a couple good links to file in Travel & Maps “favorites” links:)

Search engine for gender-neutral bathrooms.
http://safe2pee.org/new/

Government policy (Dept of Labor, etc) on Which bathroom to use
http://www.hrc.org/issues/transgender/9618.htm

This is one of the best resources for TG human rights issues
http://www.hrc.org

:love:

[Aprilrain]

I know it's not legal in Texas, Dallas and Houston have separate ordinances allowing it but overall, no.

Of course because of that I have actually used the ladies room several times in the state capitol building.
Just my way of protesting.

Does Texas really count! it's sorta like California but on the opposite end of the liberal-conservative spectrum.


Related to this subject, I have noticed that here in British Columbia, Canada that the highways department has begun adding a third washroom at highway rest stops. They are open, multiple occupancy washrooms with no lock on the door that are labeled: Men, women & disabled. I travel a lot on the highways for work, and every time I see one of these new washrooms I stop and use it just out of principle. I keep hoping a bus full of men and women will pull in to the rest stop so I can see if both men and women will use the same washroom at the same time... Preferably while I'm still in there!

Allana

God I hate unisex bathrooms, how disgusting!

[christinac]

There was a movie a while back where one of the main characters said "It is always legal until you get caught".

[linda allen]

I remember actually reading laws stating that it was illegal to use a restroom designated for the opposite sex. That was years ago and in an eastern state. The laws may or may not have been changed since then.

I know some females feel perfectly comfortable using the men's restroom if the women's restroom is occupied or the line is too long, but they frown on men using the women's restroom. That's pretty much a double standard.

If you are a male, dressed as a female, and out in public and need to use a restroom, you are often in "no man's land". Finding a unisex or "family" restroom is the best option. Otherwise, even if it's legal, someone may raise a stink. Consider a woman running out of the ladies restroom screaming at the top of her lungs "There's a man in the ladies room. Call the police!"

[susand262]

Thanks Eryn

That was very helpfull. This was my first experince in having to use the women's room. I didn't want to break the law and I didn't want to upset anyone. The women i encountered just smiled, I know this may not always be the case so I wanted to know the best way to act so not to cause any problems.

[AllieSF]

My understanding of the California laws is that it is legal to use the restroom of the gender that you are presenting. I use the Woman's restroom wherever I go with no problems so far. That is not to say that one day I may not be so lucky. A personal TG friend of mine had an incident here in the San Francisco area where a woman complained to her husband/SO that a man dressed as a woman was in the woman's restroom and that caused some unfortunate problems at the moment. The police later told my friend not to worry about it because she had a right to be there.

[Julogden]

Where I live, county law prohibits discrimination based on gender identity but there are a few exceptions, one of which is bathrooms. You're required to have a driver's license or state ID card that shows you as being of the gender for the bathroom that you're in, so it's not of any help when it comes to bathrooms for those of us who can't get our licenses or ID's changed to match our gender identity. In Cook County, Illinois, if your drivers license or ID card says male, you're required by law to use the men's bathroom regardless of how female you look.

Carol

[StacyCD]

I can't tell you how many times a women has come in to use the men's room when the line was too long in front of the ladies room. It will be nice some day when no one will care what you wear or what bathroom you use.

[sterling12]

It is Legal, where local ordinances have been passed. You will have to check with your local jurisdiction. If it's illegal, it's usually not enforced UNTIL someone complains! Lets face it, it's not worth A Prosecutor's Trouble, not worth A Cop's Attention unless there is some "political" reason to start a ruckus. If your local D.A., or Sheriff is near election time, if he or she is dependent on "The Church Vote," then you might be looking at trouble. You might become A "Special Case," and receive Special Attention.

Simple Rules to apply that would normally avoid a confrontation. 1.) Get in there, take care of business and GET OUT! 2.) Don't be looking around for ANY Reason, don't start conversations. 3.)If possible, wait until The John is unoccupied. 4.) If confronted, LEAVE and do not start A Ruckus demanding Your Rights. Even if your correct, you still might get tossed in The Can, and have to bail out. After The Incident is soon enough to consult an attorney, not when your sitting in Jail.

OK, now we've scared you to death! Personally, I've been in hundreds of Public Bathrooms with lots of GG's. I haven't had A Problem. But, Past Experience is no predictor of future behaviors. Be smart, be vigilant, be happy!

peace and Love, Joanie

[susand262]

Thanks everyone for the information and advice. This was my first time to use the ladies's room (3rd time out in public). I felt bad for the women that came in, I didn't want to scare them and I said sorry. They just smiled and left. I know in the future it may not be as easy, I just don't want them to feel threatened. I wonder what my wife and daughter would feel like if a man dressed came into the bayhroom while they were thier.

[Sally24]

Most localities don't have specific laws. In those places they CAN use disturbing the peace statutes. I personally have never had a problem using the ladies room. In my mind it is far superior to the alternatives.

[Stephenie S]

The question is not so much "is it legal". It's much more "can you avoid drawing attention to yourself".

If you can not "blend" well enough, someone may complain. THAT is something you don't want to happen no matter what the actual law is.

Even if you are in the right, having to explain that to an angry cop is no way to spend an afternoon. If you CAN blend, no one will pay you the slightest mind.

Stephie

[docrobbysherry]

There was a movie a while back where one of the main characters said "It is always legal until you get caught".

On that same note, have u ever received a ticket for going 10 miles an hour FASTER than u were actually going? And, u challenged it? And, when the officer testified, he said he clocked u for at least a mile at that speed? And, u KNOW he simply turned in behind u and pulled u over immediately? Who did the judge believe?

At the DLV and SCC they told me to use the tiolet appropriate to how I was dressed! In Disneyland, Anaheim, I was dressed as Cinderella and they said, "Do NOT use the ladies room, PERIOD!"

You're on your own! Good luck, Susan!

[KriistineCDxoxo]

Yea I believe u can but I'm definitely not brave enough to

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

OOPS, I have been in the toll plaza at I-80 and 394 so many times I have lost count, last I checked it is in Cook County so I guess that I have been breaking the law. You won't report me Julogden???? Maybe we will bump into eachother some day down in the south suburbs.

[Sally810]

I like to shop at Wal-mart. They always have clean rest rooms and at the back of most newer ones there is a family rest room option. Wal-mart sells an Atlas that have Wal-marts listed on most major roads. Not expensive, good maps and other good info. This is a great resource for finding a 'place to pee' while traveling en femme.

[kellymartina]

My last post was deleted because there are alot of threads on the subject. What i would like to know is "Is it legal to used the Ladies restroom when dressed?". Specifically in California.

yes you can follow this document i downloaded:



www.yourrights.org.uk/.../transgender-discrimination/discrimination-in-employment/public-and-vocational-training.shtml
Discrimination in employment and vocational training
The Gender Recognition Act
Discrimination in employment and vocational training
Discrimination in Education, Housing, Goods, Facilities and Services, and Duties of Public Authorities
Discrimination in Marriage and the Family
Discrimination in Pensions and State Benefits
How to Complain About Transgender Discrimination
Transgender Discrimination
Right to Receive Equal Treatment
Your Rights
The Human Rights Act
The Right to Privacy
The Right To Know
The Rights of Suspects
The Rights of Defendants
The Rights of Prisoners
The Rights of Victims and Witnesses
The Right of Peaceful Protest
The Right of Free Expression
The Right to Receive Equal Treatment
The Rights of Immigrants and Asylum Seekers
The Rights of Gypsies and Travellers
The Rights of Workers
The Rights of People Detained Under The Mental Health Act
The Rights of Children and Young People
The Rights of the Bereaved
How To Enforce Your Rights
Home > yourrights > right to receive equal treatment/transgender discrimination > transgender discrimination > Discrimination in employment and vocational training
The Sex Discrimination Act 1975 (‘SDA’) provides statutory protection against direct discrimination, victimisation and harassment for those who have undergone, plan to undergo or are undergoing gender re-assignment. The provisions provide protection from discrimination in the fields of employment and vocational training, and in education, the provision of housing, or goods, facilities and services.

The statutory definition of gender re-assignment for the purposes of the SDA is as follows:
‘a process undertaken under medical supervision for the purpose of re-assigning a person’s sex by changing physiological or other characteristics of sex, and includes any part of that process.’
I know. ie, someone living and dressing as a woman, whether or not she is biologically male or female, will use the womens bathroom.
And someone who is transgendered would determine their sexual orientation in the same way that anyone else would. For most, that would mean based on whether they identify as male or female, not whether they are genetically or biologically male or female. For example, Person X may have been born physically male, but has been living as a woman. Person X identifies as female and is exclusively attracted to men, therefore is straight, not gay.

Under the GRA, a transsexual whose change of gender has been recognised and who has had a certificate issued should be treated ‘for all purposes’ as a person of the acquired gender. This is regardless of whether the individual is pre or post-operative. If no gender recognition certificate has been obtained the legal position of pre-operative transsexuals is weaker than post-operative transsexuals.

In 2004 the House of Lords established that post-operative transsexuals are entitled to be treated as a person of the reassigned gender (A v Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Police (2004)). On the other hand, pre-operative transsexuals are not automatically entitled to be treated as members of the sex that they wish to be, although an employer still has a responsibility to consider what treatment is the most appropriate in all the circumstances.

Thus the Court of Appeal held in the case of Croft v Royal Mail Group plc (2003),that a pre-operative male to female transsexual was not discriminated against when her employer refused to allow her to use the female toilets. The use of the female toilets prior to an operation would depend ‘on all the circumstances’, including the stage reached in treatment, how the employee presents, and the views of other employees. In this case separate unisex toilet facilities had been provided, and in the circumstances accorded adequate respect for the employee’s dignity, until the stage was reached at which female toilets would be more appropriate.

Discrimination includes direct discrimination, indirect discrimination, harassment and victimisation, and the structure of the relating to discrimination on grounds of transgender mirrors the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 provisions. See What is Sex Discrimination for further information.

Genuine Occupation Requirements

Once a person has received a gender recognition certificate under the GRA it will always be unlawful to discriminate against him or her on grounds of gender reassignment except as provided for under that Act. However, in certain limited circumstances, it is not unlawful to discriminate against a non-certificated person on grounds of gender reassignment if it is a genuine occupational requirement that a non-transsexual be employed due to the essential nature of the post or the particular duties attached to it. Similar defences apply to other discriminated groups. There are two ‘genuine occupational requirements’ defences that apply to transsexuals.

The first defence is where the post requires a person of a particular sex. These provisions mirror equivalent provisions in relation to sex discrimination.

Examples of such genuine occupational requirements include:

Jobs which rely on a particular sex for their physiology (with the exception of physical strength or stamina) e.g. male or female models, or for authenticity e.g. actors.
Jobs involving physical contact or issues of decency and privacy (e.g. care assistants or toilet attendants). This defence would not necessarily extend to post-operative transsexuals. The House of Lords held in A v Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Police (2004) that a post-operative transsexual could not be excluded from serving as a police constable despite being required to conduct intimate physical searches under statute, since she had to be recognised in her reassigned gender.
Jobs involving living or doing work in a private home which involves physical or social contact or knowledge of intimate details of the home owner (e.g. live in nanny, carers).
Jobs in single sex establishments such as hospitals, prisons, or care homes, where it is reasonable for the job to be held by a particular sex.
Jobs involving provision of personal educational or welfare services to vulnerable persons (e.g. abuse counselling, but this provision does not normally apply to teachers in single sex schools).
Jobs requiring persons to live-in, where it would not be reasonable to require the employer to provide separate accommodation or facilities (e.g. ships, submarines).
This defence allows the employer to discriminate against transsexuals in the recruitment process, during employment and in the termination of employment. However, it does not allow an employer to discriminate if other persons already employed could reasonably be required to carry out any duties falling within the genuine occupational requirement exceptions. Further, even if it is not possible for others to carry out the genuine occupational requirement duties, an employer is still subject to the overarching requirement that the discriminatory treatment is reasonable in all the circumstances.

The second defence is where the post requires a person who is not a transsexual. The circumstances are more limited than those applying to the first defence. Examples of such genuine occupational requirements include:

Jobs involving intimate physical searches under statute, unless in relation to recruitment, there are other persons already employed who could reasonably be required to carry out any duties falling within the exceptions.
Employment in private homes involving physical or social contact, or knowledge of intimate details of the home owner.
Jobs involving provision of personal educational or welfare services to vulnerable persons.
Jobs requiring persons to live-in, where it would not be reasonable to require the employer to provide separate accommodation or facilities.
Unlike the first defence, there is no overarching requirement of reasonableness, or requirement to show that it is not reasonably possible for other employees to carry out those duties. However, this defence does not allow employers to employ transsexuals on different terms or employment benefits or otherwise subject them to a detriment. Finally, even if not certificated, it is debatable whether this defence can be relied upon in relation to post-operative transsexuals in the light of the decision of the House of Lords in A v Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Police (2004) that once an individual has completed surgery he or she should be regarded for all practicable purposes as being of the acquired gender.

Exemptions

In addition there are some specific exceptions which apply. There is an ‘organised religion exemption’ which enables an employer or qualifying body to discriminate against transsexuals in order to comply with the doctrines of that religion or to avoid conflict with a significant number of the religion’s followers. Under the SDA this exemption applies to persons who are undergoing, as well as those who have undergone, gender reassignment. The GRA specifically enables such discrimination to continue even against persons who have received a gender recognition certificate.

The SDA also provides an exemption in relation to single-sex sporting activities. It relates only to competitive sports, games or activities where the physical strength, stamina or physique of the average woman puts her at a disadvantage to the average man or vice versa. Therefore this provision would apply to football, tennis or athletics but not to bridge, chess or snooker. It only covers those participating in the sport as ‘competitors’ and cannot be applied to persons participating in the sport as non-competitors, e.g. referees, grounds staff, managers and / or coaches.




The UK doesn't have a specific law at present with regards to Transsexuals using the toilet facilities. This is generally a hotbed of discussion among various people and often results in unsuitable arrangements being dictated upon the person.

Strictly speaking, if you present as a man, then you should use the gents, if you present as a woman, then use the female facilities. Do not go up to customer services and check what the policy is before you use them, this makes for a messy scene. I know of a specific case where this happened and the firm concerned got it badly wrong.

There is a law that came into effect on 6th April 2008. The supply of Goods, Services and Facilities for Transsexual people. This basically makes it an offence for someone who will/is/has undergoing/undergone medical treatment to transition between genders to be treated in an unsuitable manner.

It is important to recognise at this stage that the person concerned must have discussed the desire to transition with a medical doctor. The Equality Bill changes this so that a person does not have to notify a doctor, however this act is not in the bill as it was introduced fairly recently.

What this means is that should you be refused access to the ladies when you are presenting as a woman, then you could have a claim against the provider of the public facilities.

It does not mean that someone who has just transitioned can strip naked in the female changing room of a swimming pool outside the cubicles. Discretion should be observed by both parties.

It does mean that being shoved into the manager's office to change is no longer a suitable option though.

As for using the disabled facilities, I know many individuals do take this option for a period of time. What tends to happen though is that they continue to use the disabled toilets even when they pass and no one else knows anything about them. This is a huge issue with regards to their personal confidence. Personally I would encourage you to look at using the ladies as soon as you are ready.

Another effect of this law means that should you go to 'New Look', for example, and be refused access to their changing rooms, then you have a case against them. Again, don't ask, you do have a right to check that something fits you before you purchase it. You do have a right to expect a decent level of service, just as they have a right to expect you to behave in a civil manner.

Should another customer object to your usage of the facilities, ask to speak with the manager, not the shop assistant or security guard. When the manager is present, ask the manager how they would react if the customer had objected because you were black or Asian. If they say that the customer was wrong, then explain that the law now protects you in exactly the same way.

** As a footnote to others who may be reading this, I would like to add that the vast majority of Trans people are extremely unlikely to show off unwanted anatomy to other members of the public as they would hate the unwanted attention that this would cause. Trans people generally go through transitioning because of a desire to be rid of the wrong parts and to gain the correct parts through surgery. The last thing they would want is for someone to see that they still have the wrong parts.

As for sexual offences, there are very few recorded incidents of someone dressing in drag in order to use the female facilities. These people would not be covered by the act. I would hazard a guess that there are probably more incidents of 'men' drilling holes in walls in order to see into the female facilities.
Source(s):


signed Head Of Law Licencing

B. Edwards

[NathalieX66]

On a simple note, I am a New Jersey resident, and in NJ I am allowed to use the restroom of the gender that I present myself as. The law states "gender expression" as the criteria for allowing trangender people to use the restroom of choice. That includes crossdressers, and transsexuals no matter what genitalia you have, or what stage you are whether transitioning/transitioned/pre-op/post-op/non-op/hormones/no hormones/whatever. it's been on the books since 2006.

[donnatracey]

I can't tell you how many times a women has come in to use the men's room when the line was too long in front of the ladies room. It will be nice some day when no one will care what you wear or what bathroom you use.

I can honestly say I have NEVER seen a woman in a men's bathroom; that's over 40+ years in 30+ states. Guess I've been lucky....:eek:

[eluuzion]

Here is a short clip about the "restroom bill" that will probably be successful. Basically requires everyone to use the restroom that matches your biological sex.


http://www.etransgender.com/2011/04/biological-bathroom-no-toilet-for-you.html
:love:

[susand262]

Thanks everyone for your input. This was my first time that I had to use the ladies room. wasn't sure if it was legal and I didn't know the best way to act. I didn't want to scare the women there. After reading all the replies and looking at all of the links that you gave, as well as trying to find if there was a california code, I realize there is no simple answer. My first experince wasn't bad since the ladies just smiled but i realized it may not always be that way. I guess the best advice is to get in and get out as fast as you can.

[Tina B.]

Donna, you've never been to a Shriners East west game then. It's held at Stanford University. Old stadium, and has the same number on mens and womens restrooms, by halftime the line out front of the ladies room is really long. I was standing at the urinal when in comes two young ladies, in there mid twenty's, laughing and talking just as if they where in the ladies room, they waited for a stall to open up, went in, did there thing, washed up and left, first time was a bit of a shock, and I admit, I had to dry my shoe off, I was so surprised, the next time it happened I took it in stride, seems to happen a lot there.
Oh, by the way, if out shopping, my Target has three bathroom, his, hers, and theirs, I bet others do too.
Tina B.

[Briana90802]

At the DLV and SCC they told me to use the tiolet appropriate to how I was dressed! In Disneyland, Anaheim, I was dressed as Cinderella and they said, "Do NOT use the ladies room, PERIOD!"
!

How did they let you in as Cinderella? One of the rules there is that adult aren't allowed to dress as Disney character. I think that may be the reason for the cold reception.