Sobering information about post transition

[CharleneT]

There is a new study of the lives of TS folks, after surgery. It is not great news, and echo's what many have said here: surgery doesn't necessarily end your GID issues. The article is a "scientific" read, but well worth the effort. There is a summary though.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/?tool=pubmed



p.s. at least there are now some studies of us !!!

[Katesback]

I swear I have met way more Post-op men than I ever ever wanted to meet. The worse are the ones that ACTUALLY live their lives durring the day as a boy and a girl on the weekends. Talk about some really messed up stuff.

I once talked to one of these people and they said that they are a boy durring the day because they dont want to give up their male privledges. I was shocked.

Part of the problems I see with a lot of trans girls is they focus so much on SRS and overlook the fact that they need FFS as well. So move forward to the time after they get SRS and then the need for FFS comes down with a crushing blow and a 20,000+ dollar price tag that many cannot afford. Now you see just one example of why depression is an issue.

I have said it before and will say it again. POST-OP is when the real transition begins. Pre-op is like riding the bike with training wheels and then after you have surgery you are all of a sudden given a bike without any training wheels and no idea how to ride it.

KAtie

[Zenith]

The increased health problems are a given. The other problems can be at least partially attributed to societal treatment. It just wears you down over time. I pass reasonably well. But no matter how enamored a guy seems to be, most run like hell when they find out. Employment is often discouraging. And one can becoming more and more fearful of being identified as a transsexual...

The last year has been tough...

Seems like your happiness is dependent on either well establishing yourself as a woman(or man) pre-op and then keeping ties and life intact, or creating a totally new life as a fully integrated woman(or man)...the in-between "tranny ghetto" is a bad place...

[Pythos]

"the in-between "tranny ghetto" is a bad place."

Or perhaps this is what some are truly shooting for?

I have said many many times I think the SRS is a result of social conditioning. To enjoy certain styles, or behaviors you must be so and so sex. To be someone you would prefer to be opposed to what people want you to be, you must be one or the other sex.

It is stupid, outdated, and damaging.

[Katesback]

Nope. If you want to be a gender screw or the third sex by all means knock yourself out. But then while someone does that they are subjecting themselves to soo much crap that I can only wish them the best.

KAtie

[Zenith]

"the in-between "tranny ghetto" is a bad place."

Or perhaps this is what some are truly shooting for?...

Far be it from me to defend gender binary. I am borrowing the "tranny ghetto" term from a mutual friend of Charlene and I who is loooong post (a Schrang patient) and seen way too much of the "T" world. If you insist on going so far out of societal norms...then realize that you are going to get a lot of grief, will be marginalized, and it will take a toll on you not matter how you deal with it. Hence the results of the study...

[Kelly DeWinter]

You really have to read these studys. Here are some excepts from this study.

"Sweden, 1973-2003" - Study was performed over 30 years in a country that historicly has a poor record for transgendered acceptence.

"A recent Swedish follow-up study reported no suicides in 60 transsexual patients" - New studies refute this study

"Data is inconsistent with respect to psychiatric morbidity post sex reassignment" - in other words other studies refute this study.

"The methodological shortcomings have many reasons" - this study recognizes that the methods used may be flawed.

"It does not, however, address whether sex reassignment is an effective treatment or not." - so there may be other reasons why this group is prone to issues.

Bottom line, it may just be that it's from living in Sweden !

[Zenith]

Kelly, I would think with the conservative assault the situation in the US is even worse. Look at the ridiculous demonization of the recent J.Crew ad. Studies or not I can tell you from firsthand experience that living as a transsexual instead of as a woman takes it's toll. Not dressing on weekends for relatively harmless playtime and pictures or such, but 24/7.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

To enjoy certain styles, or behaviors you must be so and so sex. To be someone you would prefer to be opposed to what people want you to be, you must be one or the other sex.

It is stupid, outdated, and damaging.

??? So if someone born with male genetics knows and believes they are female they should join up with you proudly proclaim they are a 3rd or blended gender?
no thanks..i support your right to be you, you need to support my right to be me, and stop making up ideas like it's only "social conditioning" that makes me feel this way..

[Hope]

??? So if someone born with male genetics knows and believes they are female they should join up with you proudly proclaim they are a 3rd or blended gender?
no thanks..i support your right to be you, you need to support my right to be me, and stop making up ideas like it's only "social conditioning" that makes me feel this way..

Here here.

And let me add my voice to the chorus suggesting that the tranny ghetto is not a fun place to hang out. While a lot of it has to do with interpretation, and how one understands one's place in the world - a lot of it doesn't. I'm not a man, or some third gender, I'm a woman. Damnit. And while I appreciate the other women who are tolerant of my (at best) marginally passable appearance and accept me into the sisterhood, and tolerate my presence in the ladies room... I really look forward to the day where I do not need to rely on the kindness of strangers for acceptance. Particularly because I know that all it takes is one psycho to make a mess of my day / life. And that is the reality of life in the tranny ghetto, regardless of interpretation.

I can chose to interpret the double takes, and the surreptitious camera-phone photos, and the stifled giggles as peoples reactions to having their world expanded - and I do, and I derive a little bit of pleasure from being part of what makes the world a delightful, many faceted place. But it would also be REALLY nice, to be seen as just another woman and not an object of ridicule. It would be really nice if I didn't have to wonder if stopping to pee was going to involve the police.

So third gender? Yeah - if that is what you want, then great. Personally, i will be delighted when I get paroled from the tranny ghetto.

[Rianna Humble]

I have said many many times I think the SRS is a result of social conditioning

Elsewhere, you complain that you don't get enough respect for your personal preferences with regard to gender presentation. Yet you deny those of us who know what our gender is the same respect that you demand for yourself.

A few years ago in this country, we had quite a good campaign called "Give Respect, Get Respect".

Perhaps all of us on these forums could learn from that idea.

[Aprilrain]

Pythos, I have to agree with a lot of the other girls here (i would have said boys and girls but we happen to be all girls this time) let me be me without your judgments about my motivations and I will do the same for you.

I'd probably kill myself if I had to live in Sweden too!

Transition is a double egde sword. On the one hand we all want to get to the other side so we can just be a man or woman not a TS but on the other hand it takes time and meanwhile we are TS's, some of us more obviously than others. Since we can't just hide out in our homes for the REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE we should use this opportunity to show the people that we do have to interact with that we are just like everyone else.

[Debb]

Please move along, I have offended enough people; what I had to say is not worth reading.

[Areyan]

i agree with Kate and a few others here about life post-op. after all, they KNOW what they're talking about, they are living it. i have beef with the social conditioning idea some of you here are claiming is our reason to transition and i want to take this opportunity to ask you to consider why. have those of you who are suffering with social conditioning given any credence to the idea that a transsexual person may feel differently - because they actually ARE transsexual? some of you may be suffering a SOCIAL problem that has it's roots in gender politics and some of you are perhaps buying into binary gender-stereotypes to enjoy your transgendered feelings and if it works for you, fine.

if you're not transsexual, you're not. that's ok. there is a reason that some feel compelled to separate the meanings of the words "transgender" and "transsexual". from my understanding we all fit under the transgender umbrella but not all transgendered people are transsexuals. it's perfectly fine to be a transgendered person who doesn't fit in the binary but i think the point Kate and Zenith were making above is that some people are going into transition expecting the GRS to fix all their gender problems when it doesn't if their biggest issue is fitting in with the general public in their target gender. after all, no one sees your genitals except the people you sleep with so Kate has a point about FFS being necessary for some.

as for stereotyping... yes Bethany you said it yourself. it's the way YOU are seeing it that is causing you the most grief. i had to warn a newbie cd here the other day for slamming natal women's dress sense with his stereotypical and very MALE prejudice about how women should dress. having a sexist male-dominant viewpoint is not helpful for the closet cd who is having issues with their gender expression. this is why they usually only receive support from other cds with the same outdated views on how "real women should look, dress and behave". i feel like screaming at some of you to wake up and stop taking your ideas from those silly '50s sitcoms that do nothing to help dispel any of the world's cis-centric garbage. look around you - many modern women do NOT aspire to look anything like this. it's 2011 folks.

i find it a sad state of affairs if what Kate is saying is true about some post-op folks. too many people are choosing to live in the transgender life even after surgery and this is shocking. i understand it must be very difficult for some who do not pass well and with the large number of late onset people transitioning, it's obviously going to be an issue of interest to us all in the trans spectrum. but there are reasons why there is so much gate-keeping from the medical people along the way and it's sad to see that many are slipping past that without truly seeking inside themselves just why they are doing this in the first place.

[LeannL]

Back to the original post. While quickly looking at the article, I really had a problem with any finding they may have. The outcome of SRS should NOT be measured against the "normal" population because we are not part of that population. The most important comparison with respect to the outcome of SRS needs to study the difference in outcomes between the TS who has had SRS and those that have not bu who qualify for it. We do not have a choice to move back into the "normal" population. The TS have two choices, pursue SRS or not and the study should give insight as to which has the best chance at a good outcome.

Leann

[Aprilrain]

I can see what Pythos is driving at. .

That all people who get SRS are doing it because of social conditioning?
I'm sorry but broad generalizations about people are NEVER right.

[Melody Moore]

The increased health problems are a given.

Personally I find no surprises in this report, everything here is pretty straight forward & what I already know & expect can
be real problems that affect SOME people, but certainly not everyone. I think issues like the mental health issues, especially
self harm & suicide issues are more of a problem if you are looking at transitioning & GRS with rose coloured glasses and as
the end to all your problems. I personally believe that you should deal with all your psychological issues BEFORE you even
start hormone therapy. If you have a pre-disposition to self-harm & suicide you should not be thinking about transitioning
until you are completely on top of those issues and it takes years afterwards to safely say that you are on top of those types
of issues. The last time I was ever suicidal was back in 1995 & I started my transition on hormones 15 years later because
that is how long it took to finally get over all my psychological issues.


I, too, want to be accepted ... as a girl, as a guy, as *anyone* sometimes. I,
Dual Genders? No thanks, because I had an experience where I seen a Gender Queer person last year & also seen
how others reacted to this person. I understand totally why the public reacted this way to this person. Everyone
was confused about this person's gender identity... I recall one lady who knows I am transsexual saying to me...
"You I can understand, but that? What do you call it? a He or She?" I shrugged my shoulders & said "I have no idea".

It's all fair & good that you can accept being dual gendered, but for me personally I can't do it & yet I was born intersexed!

Transsexuals face enough ridicule, abuse & violence as it is, so I can't understand why someone
would want to put themselves into that type of very awkward & dangerous position in society?
Because let's face it, people are going to fear what they don't know or understand & there is a
very high probability that some of these people will react aggressively & violently when confronted
by someone who is Gender Queer. Now back to what I was saying earlier...

Personally I think there is a couple of people here who are struggling to find out who they really are. So I also my
belief is that you need to find yourself then establish & accept yourself as a good, strong, stable & reliable person
pre-transitioning just the same as you try to establish yourself as a woman pre-op. Only when you are strong enough
to deal with all of life's issues & nothing else thrown at you can bring you down, are you ready for transitioning.

My transitional journey has taken a different path to lots of other people here, because I was living full-time as a female
& being accepted & respected as a female for about a month before I started on hormones. By the time I started hormones
I had already got rid of my male wardrobe & couldn't step out in 'guy mode' even if I wanted to. Because that was the one
part of me I wanted to lose the most.


I swear I have met way more Post-op men than I ever ever wanted to meet. The worse are the ones that
ACTUALLY live their lives durring the day as a boy and a girl on the weekends. Talk about some really messed up stuff.

I once talked to one of these people and they said that they are a boy during
the day because they dont want to give up their male privledges. I was shocked
So I concur Kate, I can't even get my head around to understand someone who is pre-op & living a double life as a male
through the day & a female at night. So I would have no hope of understanding someone who was post op & doing this.
Personally I worked hard to get out of the closet, so I have no intentions of ever wanting to go back in there & that is
essentially what people like this are doing. It's sad to say this but some people never got out the closet I don't think.


Part of the problems I see with a lot of trans girls is they focus so much on SRS and overlook the fact that they need FFS as well.
While I agree mostly with this statement, it's not always true. I was fortunate in that I was able to pass as a female
before I even started hormone therapy. I have even walked down the street with another girl who had been on HRT
for over 2 years & I hadn't even begun. The people we passed in the street only stared & glared at her & not me
because she looks a lot more masculine than I do. It felt like that not even one single person even looked at me.


I have said it before and will say it again. POST-OP is when the real transition begins.
Pre-op is like riding the bike with training wheels and then after you have surgery you
are all of a sudden given a bike without any training wheels and no idea how to ride it.

The TS girl I was with walking down the street that day has got herself into lots of fights, in trouble with the law &
has been diagnosed with Bipolar, tried a few times to harm herself & other people. The truth is she has brought lots
of the issues upon herself. To my shock & horror she was approved to go to Thailand for GRS about 8 weeks ago. I
know that lots of other girls in my local TS support group are as equally not impressed about that decision. She might
have qualified according to the Harry Benjamin Standards of care for Transsexuals, but she is not ready! Because she
committed a very serious offence last year where she almost killed another girl after deliberately ramming her car into
the front of a hotel bar. She is still going through court & has already been told by her lawyer she will be going to prison.

What she fears the most is going to a male prison now as a result of this incident, so she leant on our local gender clinic
& pushed everyone there to get her approval for GRS through ASAP to avoid going to a male prison. But this is exactly
like getting on that bike without training wheels before she is ready for it. Going to a female prison does not mean her
time in jail will be any easier. I have heard stories about other women raping other women with broom-handles & that
the level of violence in a female prison is just as bad as a male prison. So the consensus is with the local girls in my TS
group is that we are expecting this silly girl to wind up a post-op statistic & we are worried about what impact that will
have on the services being offered by our local gender clinic. I hate to say this, but this true about how others really feel.


i find it a sad state of affairs if what Kate is saying is true about some post-op folks. too many people are choosing to live in the transgender life even after surgery and this is shocking. i understand it must be very difficult for some who do not pass well and with the large number of late onset people transitioning, it's obviously going to be an issue of interest to us all in the trans spectrum. but there are reasons why there is so much gate-keeping from the medical people along the way and it's sad to see that many are slipping past that without truly seeking inside themselves just why they are doing this in the first place.
What you said here is true Areyan, especially the part about those slipping through the cracks & being approved for GRS.

I personally believe that the bottom-line is if you still have issues to
deal with then you are not ready for Gender Reassignment Surgery!

[arbon]

What she fears the most is going to a male prison now as a result of this incident, so she leant on our local gender clinic
& pushed everyone there to get her approval for GRS through ASAP to avoid going to a male prison.



I can imagine that would be terrifying if you are TS. Sorry to be so far off topic but how can you fault her for doing whatever she can to avoid the mens prison? Do you think she will be more ready SRS after some time locked in with the guys?

[Melody Moore]

Arbon, I have talked to a few people about this & what she is fearing won't even happen anymore after another
trans-girl committed suicide some years ago after being repeatedly gang raped in a male prison. chances are they
would have put her in a female prison regardless of the fact she is pre-op. Even if they did put you in a male prison
nowadays, they would most likely put you in protective custody if you were trangendered. Unlike the USA & many
other countries, Australia is big on human rights, even for those in prison who have committed the most heinous of
crimes. Hell here in Australia our government will even pay for your GRS is you are in custody in prison. Maddison Hall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maddison_Hall)
was put in a female prison while being pre-op, then our government paid for her GRS. Personally I think she shouldn't
have got anything & been left to rot in hell. ~ If you can't do the time, then don't commit the crime.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maddison_Hall

So I don't think the fact that the girl I know faced prison was a good enough reason to grant her permission
to go to Thailand for Gender Reassignment Surgery, she bluffed the psychologists & doctors at my local clinic.

[Steph.TS]

I'm a test the waters kind of person, I'm doing permanent hair removal now, one day I hope to get on hormones (this I believe is the biggest part of transition) SRS, and FFS are plastic surgery, granted important plastic surgery, and I very badly want to have them, but it's the hormones that'll mke the biggest impact on you, it'll play with your emotion, it'll skrink the testicles, it'll grow breasts, change the texture of the skin, the hormones given enough time will do radical things to you, SRS only effect the outside.

but having seeing this thread, it has given me a bit of a heavy heart, will I always have gender dysphoria? am I forever trapped with these feelings? pursue change or evade it is there a difference?

I'm in therapy, and working on my body to make me feel closer to my goal, and I'm worried that I'll put all this money and effort in to it and realize I've gotten nowhere...

[Zenith]

...SRS only effect the outside...

Ummmmm, no hun...you are aware they create a cavity inside your body? :straightface:
Also keep in mind that Estrogen starts working unopposed after SRS or Orchi...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'm a test the waters kind of person, I'm doing permanent hair removal now, one day I hope to get on hormones (this I believe is the biggest part of transition) SRS, and FFS are plastic surgery, granted important plastic surgery, and I very badly want to have them, but it's the hormones that'll mke the biggest impact on you, it'll play with your emotion, it'll skrink the testicles, it'll grow breasts, change the texture of the skin, the hormones given enough time will do radical things to you, SRS only effect the outside.

but having seeing this thread, it has given me a bit of a heavy heart, will I always have gender dysphoria? am I forever trapped with these feelings? pursue change or evade it is there a difference?

I'm in therapy, and working on my body to make me feel closer to my goal, and I'm worried that I'll put all this money and effort in to it and realize I've gotten nowhere...

don't let the *******s get you down... i mean that!
you are not forever trapped...transition does make gender dysphoria go away, but it doesn't magically fix anything else in your life.

the very first trans doc i ever met was dr mcginn... she made a comment i'll never forget...she said..
"So many of the MTF clients I meet are "damaged goods""..... she's right...depression, anxiety, phobias, social issues...we got em!

that study says there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow..and guess what...there isnt'.... being a woman is not a pot of gold, and some of us find that out, and all those years of dysphoria catches up with some of us...transition is physically and emotionally brutal, and the end result of it is that you get rid of the dysphoria only to realize that you have lived your whole life to become a woman , and your overwhelming feeling is ...ok, this feels right, but now what?

Trust yourself, talk to ts women, find a knowledgeable therapist

that study basically confirms that in many cases we are damaged goods (emotionally), and transition doesn't heal the damage....you have to do that for yourself, and if you are not mentally and physically prepared for that challenge, then you do risk being a statistic.. what the study totally and completely misses is how a successful transsexual can redefine their own quality of life to be much better, and how good planning and good support can really increase the chances that you make good decisions around transition...

[CharleneT]

I'm a test the waters kind of person, I'm doing permanent hair removal now, one day I hope to get on hormones (this I believe is the biggest part of transition) SRS, and FFS are plastic surgery, granted important plastic surgery, and I very badly want to have them, but it's the hormones that'll mke the biggest impact on you, it'll play with your emotion, it'll skrink the testicles, it'll grow breasts, change the texture of the skin, the hormones given enough time will do radical things to you, SRS only effect the outside.

but having seeing this thread, it has given me a bit of a heavy heart, will I always have gender dysphoria? am I forever trapped with these feelings? pursue change or evade it is there a difference?

I'm in therapy, and working on my body to make me feel closer to my goal, and I'm worried that I'll put all this money and effort in to it and realize I've gotten nowhere...

Each person is different, so generalizations only go so far ... but indeed, GID is not "cured" by surgeries. I think the hormones do have more effect on GID than surgery. Looked at from a different angle, all of those things do allow you to lead a life in your target gender, hence they help a lot. Cure? Probably not, but it sure can make life easier because you can live the life you need/want. That might be a cure for you, but not another. Please do not feel that you will ".. have gotten nowhere..." if you went thru all that you listed. What the research is saying is that you may still have things to deal with after the surgeries. Knowing that, you can avoid the pitfalls that those others ran into. The other thing that the study brought out is that people with GID sometimes have other - possibly - more serious issues. Too often so much attention is paid to GID, that the other things get missed or left untreated.

[Pythos]

"Elsewhere, you complain that you don't get enough respect for your personal preferences with regard to gender presentation. Yet you deny those of us who know what our gender is the same respect that you demand for yourself."

and yet, once again, what I say is taken as judgment, or an insult, or what have you.

I WAS NOT MEANING TO INSULT, or judge.

I was simply stating MY opinion about how I feel about the SRS. Why is it then that the majority of this operation is M2F? You honestly do not think that if it were not for the strict gender roles placed on men for the most part, SRS would decrease?

Oh, and I find offense in some of the ways "third gender" is being treated in this thread. You speak of it as if it is less viable than say a male being turned into a woman?

Honestly though, aside from societal ignorance, what is so bad about a blend of the two genders? In fact I think it was proven that most people are indeed a blend, but outwardly we are limited in our outward appearance.

Also, as with nearly all my opinions, they are NOT ONE SIZE FITS ALL. I do think there are genuinely those that are transgenders, and are indeed one sex trapped in a body of the other sex. BUT, I also do think social conditioning is a main motivator for MANY, not ALL. Please read my posts with a grain of salt, and a fine eye.

[Julogden]

I think that a significant part of the problem is that currently, TS's usually have to go through puberty in their birth sex, thus altering their bodies in ways that cause problems and trauma for life. I feel that TS children need to be accepted for who they feel they are and it should be standard procedure to treat self-identified TS children to delay puberty and give them a better chance to grow up feeling comfortable in their skin. If that becomes standard operating procedure for treating TS's, I think we'll probably see a drop in the negative things later in life that this research is showing.

That won't affect those who don't realize that they're TS until later in life, but I feel that it's important to work to make treating TS children more acceptable. Currently, even delaying puberty in TS kids often (usually?) raises a furor among the ignorant cisgender public.

Carol

[Ingrid1999]

I think that a significant part of the problem is that currently, TS's usually have to go through puberty in their birth sex, thus altering their bodies in ways that cause problems and trauma for life. I feel that TS children need to be accepted for who they feel they are and it should be standard procedure to treat self-identified TS children to delay puberty and give them a better chance to grow up feeling comfortable in their skin. If that becomes standard operating procedure for treating TS's, I think we'll probably see a drop in the negative things later in life that this research is showing.

That won't affect those who don't realize that they're TS until later in life, but I feel that it's important to work to make treating TS children more acceptable. Currently, even delaying puberty in TS kids often (usually?) raises a furor among the ignorant cisgender public.

Carol

I agree 100%

We are all speaking of course from our own experience and perspective, and gender identity is a continuum, so our opinions in this thread fall along those lines.

That said, when I started puberty I developed breast buds, which resulted in a swift trip to the doctor. He informed my mother that I was a normal boy and this was not unusual and would pass. I knew I wanted to grow into a woman and had for years by that time. I had been caught a couple of times by then, so my mother no doubt suspected something. I desperately wanted to say something, to tell the doctor that no I was not a normal boy, that I did want to develop as a female. But I was mute. I knew what I felt was "wrong" and dangerous. I dont think I said a word that day and no one asked me a thing. But for twenty years that was the closest I ever came to coming out. If anyone had asked me, or informed me that I might have had a choice it would have all come blurting out. But at that time the only gender variant person I had seen or heard of was Dr. Renee Richards, and honestly at 11 years old, she scared the hell out of me.

Society really starts to harden gender roles in early puberty, if kids had the power to choose their path early, it would mark real progress for them and our society.

[Kelly DeWinter]

I'm not sure I see why some people have a problem with a post op TS who lives a dual life as Male and Female. Is'nt that their choice. Why do people feel that they must choose ?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'm not sure I see why some people have a problem with a post op TS who lives a dual life as Male and Female. Is'nt that their choice. Why do people feel that they must choose ?

its seems everybody is just justifying their own choice...and they should...i don't see that to be a problem

the forever problem in this discussion, never to be solved, is that people that had srs know what it's like, and the people that have fully transitioned and are accepted as females know what it's like, and they are overwhelmingly glad they did it (outside of health factors that may cause some to wish otherwise)..and the large majority of us choose to blend in with our true gender in a binary way..

every time someone challenges that, the folks that have actually done it chime in and share their actual real world experience...and the real world experience is so massively different than what everyone else does, that it's not something that easily translates into words....i lived a dual life for many years, i was avoiding the difficulties of transition...i know the difference, i lived it..
when i read about people that are transsexual and see how they are living dual lives, i often think to myself that over time they will understand more, and that their choice has even deeper costs than the ones paid by transitioning transsexuals...especially as they get older and realize that the feeling is getting more and more overwhelming..it's not 100% but it's very predictable..i can imagine it doesn't sit well with you to hear that if you've chosen to live a dual life but you know you are a woman.

just like it's predictable that so many of us tell everybody about our transness, proceed with transition , then realize we don't want to talk about it anymore, we just want to live in our female role...

the people that are gender queer are not transsexual anyway and really can't add to this conversation, their perspective is interesting in its own way, but it's a different discussion, and it's not relevant to a transsexual person's decision,

[ReineD]

The increased health problems are a given. The other problems can be at least partially attributed to societal treatment. It just wears you down over time.

...

Seems like your happiness is dependent on either well establishing yourself as a woman(or man) pre-op and then keeping ties and life intact, or creating a totally new life as a fully integrated woman(or man)...the in-between "tranny ghetto" is a bad place...

Julie, I agree with your first point especially here in the US. But, do we know how well accepted transpersons are in Sweden? According to the following article by a Swedish doctor (I provide a link and quote his conclusion), it is much better there than here. And if the data presented in this study is sobering, I can only imagine what the results would be in this country if a similar study should be conducted.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1878949/?page=1

Conclusions

In most countries the legal provisions to enable transsexual citizens to make reasonable social adjustments in their new gender roles are unsatisfactory. The law in Sweden appears for the first time anywhere in the world to take into account what is known to medical science about the extraordinary condition of transsexualism, and it is inspired by humanity and tolerance to make the life of the minority of transsexuals in our midst more tolerable and society more just toward them.

And regarding your second point, the data was gathered from national data banks, independent of personal follow-up. The difficulty with prior research was precisely because the researchers could not follow up with people who had gone stealth. But this is not the case with this study, since the results include all the post-op Swedish transpersons, including those who have gone stealth.


You really have to read these studys. Here are some excepts from this study.

(1) "Sweden, 1973-2003" - Study was performed over 30 years in a country that historicly has a poor record for transgendered acceptence.

(2) "A recent Swedish follow-up study reported no suicides in 60 transsexual patients" - New studies refute this study

(3) "Data is inconsistent with respect to psychiatric morbidity post sex reassignment" - in other words other studies refute this study.

(4) "The methodological shortcomings have many reasons" - this study recognizes that the methods used may be flawed.

(5) "It does not, however, address whether sex reassignment is an effective treatment or not." - so there may be other reasons why this group is prone to issues.

Bottom line, it may just be that it's from living in Sweden !

Kelly, I've numbered your points so that I can address them. I did a word search on your first point, and I can't find it anywhere in the study. Can you point me to the paragraph it's in?

Your second point is an acknowledgment from the researchers that prior research was weak precisely because the follow up study (the one you quoted) was over a short term period and did not include transwomen who had gone stealth. It is not a comment about this study.

Your third point is the same. The researchers are saying that prior, weak studies have inconsistent data with the current research, which obtains information from national data banks over a 30 year period.

Your fourth point also does not apply to this study. It is the researchers' explanation as to why prior studies that show minimized, negative after effects are flawed, and does not apply to this study.

Your fifth point: the researchers acknowledge they merely gathered data to show the long term outcomes of SRS. They are not making value judgments. Also, I don't know if being trans in Sweden is worse than here. Have a look at the link I posted above, in my reply to Julie.



I'm not wanting to paint a rosy or a dire picture. I just want to make sure that the study is interpreted correctly, so that people who do not want to read it can get an accurate analysis of what it is saying.





the people that are gender queer are not transsexual anyway and really can't add to this conversation, their perspective is interesting in its own way, but it's a different discussion, and it's not relevant to a transsexual person's decision,

Totally agree! I don't understand why people who have no wish to transition should place value judgments on those who do, and the same applies in the reverse. This study provides long term data that hopefully will help TSs come to terms with possible pitfalls ahead, so they don't go into it with rose colored glasses and thus can better prepare themselves for a successful outcome.



Part of the problems I see with a lot of trans girls is they focus so much on SRS and overlook the fact that they need FFS as well. So move forward to the time after they get SRS and then the need for FFS comes down with a crushing blow and a 20,000+ dollar price tag that many cannot afford. Now you see just one example of why depression is an issue.

I'm guessing this is why a two year RLE is crucial and should not be skipped, since it will give a pre-op TS an accurate assessment as to whether she passes (or blends in as a woman) or not, and how important this is to her.

[Hope]

the very first trans doc i ever met was dr mcginn... she made a comment i'll never forget...she said.. "So many of the MTF clients I meet are "damaged goods""..... she's right...depression, anxiety, phobias, social issues...we got em!

I agree with this whole heartedly. But lets put some lipstick on this?

We have all met girls who were ... lets say - unstable - for one reason or another. That is the norm, not the exception. If you don't know a trans-girl (or 5) in your group of trans friends who is unstable... you are the unstable one of the group. Even the girls who are functional, and are able to hold down jobs and social lives, have serious quirks. And this shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Gender issues mess with a person's head in a HUGE way. Being unable to resolve one of the more fundamental aspects of personal identity is going to mess with a person's head. Being expected to relate to the world and to others in a manner that feels completely unnatural and wrong is going to mess with a person's head.

But being quirky is not at all unusual. Most people, Cis or trans - or oblivious, have some sort of quirk - some sort of diagnosable mental issue. When I was in college (and that was Mrhmph years ago) the estimation was something like 78% of the population had some sort of diagnosable issue. That doesn't mean that doesn't mean that the symptoms from that issue rise to the level of "disorder" or that they are necessarily troubling to the people in question - but almost everyone has something going on that isn't quite right. Define "right" however you see fit.

Being gender dysphoric may not be a disorder in it's own right, but it definitely takes whatever quirk already exists in our personalities, and cranks it up to 12. So you see girls - girls like the ones we all know - girls like the ones we all are - who present with some troubling, obvious, social issues. And some of us think that changing our bodies will resolve all of our issues? Not a chance. It will certainly help resolve some of the tension that exacerbates our underlying issues - but unless we confront our other issues, our other learned behaviors, they will still haunt us.

This is one of the reasons why I have no problem with therapy being a part of the SOC. This isn't a mental health issue, but it exacerbates so many other issues that ARE mental issues that need to be addressed for a healthy functional person to emerge post-transition... so we don't still see absurdly, depressingly, high suicide rates post-transition. So we don't have the girls who go through all of this work only to realize a vagina was not the solution to their problems. This is why I shake my head at the girls who swear up and down about how they are never going to therapy, or how they never saw a therapist before transition. Fools - every last one, and to top it off, they are invariably the ones who would benefit from the most. But that is a separate issue.

Dr. McGinn is right - MTF girls have issues. We have so many issues we have back-issues. But lets not call ourselves damaged goods. We are not day-old bread or bruised fruit or factory seconds, worth less because of our imperfections. We are glorious, magical, shape-shifting, glitter-infused creatures who have the strength and the stamina to do things that are so difficult that most people would never even attempt them. We also, like all great people, have foibles and areas of weakness to overcome. We are awesome, but far from perfect.

Instead of calling ourselves damaged goods, lets call ourselves works in progress. If for no other reason, it reminds us to keep doing the work instead of settling for societies' view of us.


According to the following article by a Swedish doctor (I provide a link and quote his conclusion), it is much better there than here. And if the data presented in this study is sobering, I can only imagine what the results would be in this country if a similar study should be conducted.

Well... they titled the report "Injustice at Every Turn..." That alone should tell you something.

http://www.thetaskforce.org/reports_and_research/ntds

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If you don't know a trans-girl (or 5) in your group of trans friends who is unstable... you are the unstable one of the group.




i absolutely burst out laughing at this..so true..i hear what some people say in various therapy sessions and i honestly just think to myself there is no hope..

i agree damaged goods is too harsh...and i didn't mean (nor did drmcginn i dont think) it as a term that was aimed at hurting anyone..
i like your way of saying it, and how you point out that many of us succeed at something incredible despite all the damage that is caused as we go through life in such confusion..(now putting on lipstick)

[ReineD]

Well... they titled the report "Injustice at Every Turn..." That alone should tell you something.

http://www.thetaskforce.org/reports_and_research/ntds

I'm not disputing this, and neither does the study that Charlene posted. Of course there are reasons why some TSs experience depression, addictions, and a host of other issues.

The point the study makes is, the issues don't automatically go away post-op. In other words, according to the statistics SRS alone is not the Holy Grail to gender dysphoria and other psychological issues, which I agree are understandable given society's non-acceptance of gender variance.

[Zenith]

SRS does quiet a lot of the internal demons...but the external ones must be conquered too...

[Jorja]

The report is no big surprise. That does not mean it is accurate nor does it mean that one cannot rise above and be a success. I know many Transsexuals that have gone on to be quite successful in life and just as happy and well adjusted as any other group. Do we have our quirks? Sure we do. It is all in how YOU chose to handle those quirks as to how you are affected by them. For some, constant therapy is a must. For others, occasional therapy may be needed. Yet others may never need to go to therapy again. Outcome is just as individual as transition was.

I wish it was possible to instead of having studies of only doom and gloom to also have studies about success. I know this can never happen because of the stealth factor. We would have a much truer picture of the Transsexual community.

[Steph.TS]

don't let the *******s get you down... i mean that!
you are not forever trapped...transition does make gender dysphoria go away, but it doesn't magically fix anything else in your life.

the very first trans doc i ever met was dr mcginn... she made a comment i'll never forget...she said..
"So many of the MTF clients I meet are "damaged goods""..... she's right...depression, anxiety, phobias, social issues...we got em!

that study says there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow..and guess what...there isnt'.... being a woman is not a pot of gold, and some of us find that out, and all those years of dysphoria catches up with some of us...transition is physically and emotionally brutal, and the end result of it is that you get rid of the dysphoria only to realize that you have lived your whole life to become a woman , and your overwhelming feeling is ...ok, this feels right, but now what?

Trust yourself, talk to ts women, find a knowledgeable therapist

that study basically confirms that in many cases we are damaged goods (emotionally), and transition doesn't heal the damage....you have to do that for yourself, and if you are not mentally and physically prepared for that challenge, then you do risk being a statistic.. what the study totally and completely misses is how a successful transsexual can redefine their own quality of life to be much better, and how good planning and good support can really increase the chances that you make good decisions around transition...


Each person is different, so generalizations only go so far ... but indeed, GID is not "cured" by surgeries. I think the hormones do have more effect on GID than surgery. Looked at from a different angle, all of those things do allow you to lead a life in your target gender, hence they help a lot. Cure? Probably not, but it sure can make life easier because you can live the life you need/want. That might be a cure for you, but not another. Please do not feel that you will ".. have gotten nowhere..." if you went thru all that you listed. What the research is saying is that you may still have things to deal with after the surgeries. Knowing that, you can avoid the pitfalls that those others ran into. The other thing that the study brought out is that people with GID sometimes have other - possibly - more serious issues. Too often so much attention is paid to GID, that the other things get missed or left untreated.
thanks those comments helped me out, I know that after the hormones, surgeries etc... you will have gotten where you wanted but very probably feel like something is lost or not quite right as you spent so much time for a goal they are kinda get lost once you are there, plus as you said the problems that go unaddressed it all has it's toll on a person.

[Areyan]

one of the things that i picked up from reading those study reports from sweden was how prevalent the post-ops were who still chose to suicide had many other psychiatric issues and not only presented with them at the onset of transition but (i'm only speculating here) perhaps ignored them while they focused on transition? i'm assuming that some put their transition before their mental health as a whole and this lead to their untimely deaths. again, pure speculation but i know what it's like to be so consumed by the dysphoria it can make other things pale in comparison.

[Sejd]

Thanks CharleneT for bringing this article to the Forum. I think it is very good for what it is. I read the entire text and I think it dose raise some good questions and thoughts for reflection. I wish we could see more facts like these and more studies in this country on Gender reassignment. It could help many. The article is very good for therapist and medical professionals to know and have as a recourse in educating both themselves as well as us who deal with our Gender issues every day. Again Thanks
Sejd

[AKAMichelle]

I think it just goes to show that their is a lot more to transitioning than having the surgery. If you don't deal with those issues prior to the surgery then you definitely will afterwards and the outcome may not be what you expect.

[CharleneT]

I'm not disputing this, and neither does the study that Charlene posted. Of course there are reasons why some TSs experience depression, addictions, and a host of other issues.

The point the study makes is, the issues don't automatically go away post-op. In other words, according to the statistics SRS alone is not the Holy Grail to gender dysphoria and other psychological issues, which I agree are understandable given society's non-acceptance of gender variance.

BINGO !!! bingo bingo bingo ....


Thanks CharleneT for bringing this article to the Forum. I think it is very good for what it is. I read the entire text and I think it dose raise some good questions and thoughts for reflection. I wish we could see more facts like these and more studies in this country on Gender reassignment. It could help many. The article is very good for therapist and medical professionals to know and have as a recourse in educating both themselves as well as us who deal with our Gender issues every day. Again Thanks
Sejd

You are very welcome ;) I have valued this place very highly for years because we bring a lot to the table. Sometimes there are food fights... :doh:


I think it just goes to show that their is a lot more to transitioning than having the surgery. If you don't deal with those issues prior to the surgery then you definitely will afterwards and the outcome may not be what you expect.

Indeed !! This is the point that Frances made so well, you need to deal with as much of this stuff as you can before SRS. Kate's right too, especially (I think) that after SRS there are surprises for many people. Get as many ducks in a line as you can before that. Will help make the begining of post-op transition easier ?? !!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I think it just goes to show that their is a lot more to transitioning than having the surgery. If you don't deal with those issues prior to the surgery then you definitely will afterwards and the outcome may not be what you expect.

the problem here is that for many people the surgery seems neccessary before there is any chance to deal with the other issues...

it can make the srs a pretty high risk scenario because there is no guarantee that the person post srs is well equipped to handle "real life" and any mental health issues from over the years..sometimes HRT, or HRT/RLE helps , and some people get FFS first (i did) and that helps too...but ffs is more drastic than the GRS actually..and i'll accept my prize now for most acronyms in one sentence thank you

and also Charlene, thanks!

[Kelly DeWinter]

Kelly, I've numbered your points so that I can address them. I did a word search on your first point, and I can't find it anywhere in the study. Can you point me to the paragraph it's in?
Top of page 1st paragraph

Your second point is an acknowledgment from the researchers that prior research was weak precisely because the follow up study (the one you quoteed) was over a short term period and did not include transwomen who had gone stealth. It is not a comment about this study

Yep, the current state of mental heath understanding is 100 times better then it was even 10 years ago. Medication and treatment is are more precise, hence a study 8 years out of date is not relevant to today.

Your third point is the same. The researchers are saying that prior, weak studies have inconsistent data with the current research, which obtains information from national data banks over a 30 year period. YEs !

Your fourth point also does not apply to this study. It is the researchers' explanation as to why prior studies that show minimized, negative after effects are flawed, and does not apply to this study. Well I could debate this to no end, but I will concede that this studys metods may be releveant to sweden alone. Just as you would not compare the quality of mediacal care in the United States, to that of Canada, Australia or to that of African nations. It's like running a race there is 1st place second and third. (No offence ment to anyone of any nations)

Your fifth point: the researchers acknowledge they merely gathered data to show the long term outcomes of SRS. They are not making value judgments. Also, I don't know if being trans in Sweden is worse than here. Have a look at the link I posted above, in my reply to Julie.

From what I've read about TG communities in the Nordic countries, it's akin to being a yuppie in a red neck bar LOL.


I'm not wanting to paint a rosy or a dire picture. I just want to make sure that the study is interpreted correctly, so that people who do not want to read it can get an accurate analysis of what it is saying.

Thats the issue with studies, they can be interpreted. What the data says to one researcher is one thing , what it says to another researcher is another. It depends on what the question is being asked, what data it is appiled to, and what data is presented. The OP,s link is to a very abreviated write up on the research. If you or I or anyone else paid the $190.00 for the real study then we would have something to talk about.





Totally agree! I don't understand why people who have no wish to transition should place value judgments on those who do, and the same applies in the reverse. This study provides long term data that hopefully will help TSs come to terms with possible pitfalls ahead, so they don't go into it with rose colored glasses and thus can better prepare themselves for a successful outcome.



I'm guessing this is why a two year RLE is crucial and should not be skipped, since it will give a pre-op TS an accurate assessment as to whether she passes (or blends in as a woman) or not, and how important this is to her.

Yep, can't disagree with that. It's probably a real eye opener, women go through a HELL of a lot just to get ready for work every day. not to mention self image issues, societal pressures. The list goes on.

so I'll continue to support anyone no matter where they are on the TG spectrum.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Being gender dysphoric may not be a disorder in it's own right, but it definitely takes whatever quirk already exists in our personalities, and cranks it up to 12.


Hope this comment of yours should be a Proverb for the TG Bible. Its the truest truisim i've ever read. Well said !

[ReineD]

Top of page 1st paragraph


Thats the issue with studies, they can be interpreted. What the data says to one researcher is one thing , what it says to another researcher is another. It depends on what the question is being asked, what data it is appiled to, and what data is presented. The OP,s link is to a very abreviated write up on the research. If you or I or anyone else paid the $190.00 for the real study then we would have something to talk about.

Kelly, are we looking at the same study?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/?tool=pubmed

The link above, originally posted by Charlene, is to the peer reviewed article posted on PubMed Cental, Plos One open-access journal. To quote the site, "Plos One is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original author and source are credited."

There is an abstract, and there is also the full text HTML article together with the PDF version. Both of these include the data tables.

I still cannot see any reference in this article to Sweden having a historically poor record for transgender acceptance. Would you mind copying and pasting the paragraph it's in?

As to the interpretation, it is rather straight forward, since the study is an accumulation of data obtained from Swedish national registers.

I discussed the study with my SO last night. She brought up a good point: it would also have been useful to compare the 324 post-op individuals in the study to the 480 individuals with GID who did not have a gender shift, due to not having applied or having been refused. However, the 480 individuals were not included in the study because the criteria for GID also includes persons who might have been hospitalized for sexual disorders other than transsexualism.



so I'll continue to support anyone no matter where they are on the TG spectrum.

As do I, and I'm sure the vast majority of members here as well. :)

[danielleb]

I think this study is pretty much inline with what any reasonably intelligent person could put together. Look around the forum here and take the average of most of us and certainly we'd fall right in line with the study. The real problem is that it's so rearward facing, and alot is changing in the current social enviorment. In a larger generalzation, we no longer face random beatings walking down the street, or risk being thrown directly into jail for going into a store or restraunt, as was so prevelant throughout the first half of the study subjects lives. Accept that this is where we were, but not where we are heading!
This study is so relatively ambigious in it's nature that those who want to skew it positive can, and those (particularly one doctor involved in rewriting the DSM language) who want to skew it negative will.

I just had to chime in about Melody's "friend." Does no one else see her never spending a day in jail?:D
A trip to singapore, a trans accepting country, for someone with an emminent court date and long term jail stay forthcoming, hmmm, wonder what could happen.:daydreaming:

[Melody Moore]

just had to chime in about Melody's "friend." Does no one else see her never spending a day in jail?:D
A trip to singapore, a trans accepting country, for someone with an emminent court date and long term jail stay forthcoming, hmmm, wonder what could happen.:daydreaming:
Not Singapore - Thailand, one of the most trans-friendly countries in the world.

Don't worry, I am also wondering if she will come back to Australia for her next court appearance.

[Kathryn Martin]

I think that there is a lot of confusion among gender variant and transsexual circles about the differentiation between the two conditions. Transsexuals usually do not have a gender issue. They have a congruency issue. Gender variant people have a gender issue. The morbidity problems arising according to the study are not defined really. They speak of cardiovascular problems (often enhanced by hormone intake) and suicide rates. The conclusion of the study is that there is a need to improve long term follow up both for psychiatric and somatic conditions. Very often these issues relate to lifestyle choices TS make regarding nutrition etc, but also to issues such as loneliness, abandonment issues and problems to find and maintain lasting friendships. The study is not at all surprising.

I would add to Katesback's comments, that the real work begins post-op that it should begin at the RLE commencement point. Transitioned non-op and post -op individuals are not for some reason absolved from the chore of personal development above and beyond transition and living in their correct gender. One of the biggest problems in my view is that there seems to be a sense that "now that I am woman/man you must accept and love me". If you were socially awkward or troubled, no extent of operation, confirmation or treatment with hormones is going to change that. The tendency is to blame rejection of the act of transitioning by others in the workplace, family and neighbours for the lack of improvement of life quality post-transition or op. I believe that this is not at all the case. It is the easy out to not have to look at yourself and make yourself the best person you can be.

That is where the recommendation of the study comes in in my view, long term follow up to work on and improve all of the other conditions that may have been latent or patent in the persons life, to improve chances of success and outcome.

[Felicity71]

If you were socially awkward or troubled, no extent of operation, confirmation or treatment with hormones is going to change that. The tendency is to blame rejection of the act of transitioning by others in the workplace, family and neighbours for the lack of improvement of life quality post-transition or op. I believe that this is not at all the case. It is the easy out to not have to look at yourself and make yourself the best person you can be.
I agree with this statement strongly. Well said, Kathryn. I would also say I know im flawed, and the loneliness will probably kill me if I cant break out of my life-traps.

[Kelsy]

It is against all odds that we persue transition and grs with hope that there will be a day that we reach a reasonable
place in life as our true nature dictates. How many transsexuals given all of the reports and data, the advise and
the warnings would turn and give up their dream of living free? Consequences be damned! Does anyone here truly
believe that grs will end all your problems? I don't think so. As for justice, fairness? what world do you live in?
The human condition fights it. To have justice is to wrestle with human nature. It is a fight in every respect.