Hrt

[Steph.TS]

I was reading this http://www.susans.org/reference/hormones/hormoneb.html and it has me worried specifically
The feminization of your features will likely leave ;you with a very androgynous appearance, not fitting either gender role, which is disconcerting to many other people (employers, clients, customers, etc.) and which could likely affect your ability to hold any job, especially one with any responsibility (with any reasonable paycheck).

and
You may find an interesting "Catch-22" connected with taking estrogens in that while your body becomes feminized, your desire for that effect may be severely reduced.

I want to transition but I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb, be the person who isn't quite male or female, and that bit about the desire to feminize being reduced, what does that mean for us, does that mean that my desire to be woman, to feminize my body is an illusion created by my testosterone or other hormone combination?

[sandra-leigh]

I wrote about the decrease in interest slightly earlier today, in this thread (http://http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?152607-Being-pushed-away.&p=2475790&highlight=#post2475790) . The article I was referring to there, I had discussed earlier here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?151891-My-GP-gets-upset-about-my-HRT&p=2468299&highlight=#post2468299)

[Felicity71]

Well Steph, HRT may leave you androgynous, and thats why a number of people have facial feminization surgery, change their name, try to perfect their voice, and wear only female clothing. Life is not equal and its up to you to decide what and where you want to be. If your happy as a man primarily it might be prudent to consider what you may loose.
The Catch -22, thats got to be for those that love wearing clothing mainly for sexual arousal. (not that theres anything wrong with that.)

[Stephenie S]

Well, I guess you had better not start, then.

[TerryTerri]

I know about the Catch 22 with HRT. To me it's kinda like this, I am transgendered and that creates an internal fracture inside myself that I lived with for too many years. Having the strong desire to be female and crossdress were some of the manifestations of this internal stress from the incongruency inside myself. Taking HRT stuff, the medicine greatly diminishes the emotional and mental incongruency (it does not eliminate it) and I feel just so much more whole and complete without having to do anything but take these pills everyday. Therefore, I no longer have such a frustration and angst driven 'need' to crossdress and the other feminine things I do. I'm calmer inside myself and don't have to act out.
However, I can assure you that for me, stopping HRT will bring the internal frustrations right back. So, the catch 22 is that when I think I don't need to take the HRT, it is because the HRT is truely working. btw, I still like to dress and do female things, it is just that it is no longer being driven inside from a place of frustration, dispair and longing. Now days, I do it simply because I want to, it's fun and I really enjoy it!

HRT really has made significant and subtle changes to the attitudes and perspectives I have. I have been grateful for all these little changes and the farther I go down this road the surer I get that it is the right road for me and the farther I want to continue down this road. However, my first year to year and a half was kind of an adjustment period where I wasn't positive this was the most right thing for me and the changes I noticed always gave me reason to pause and consider what happened. A few months ago it slowly but surely came together and I guess I finally accepted the path I'm on and the direction I'm headed and decided it was right and good and I wanted it!

As to the androgony stuff, don't worry about it. Many people have androgenous facets and features to themselves. However, clothing and behavior give those around us the clues to the gender. An androgenous person has more flexibility. If they dress and act as man or woman they'll blend right in, regardless. Most people won't even notice the androgony because of the other gender clues given off. But, if a person dresses as one gender, but has strong physical features and mannerisms of the opposite gender, thety will be noticed.

[Hope]

Yeah, hormones will only do so much. Hormones will not change bone structure, so while you may get a curvier figure, with extra padding on your hips and (hopefully) boobs, your pelvis will not widen like a cis-woman's. You may get some softening of your facial features from redistribution of body fat, but your brow ridges will remain. The distance from your nose to upper lip will remain. Your square jaw will remain. Your hairline will not likely change at all. And you will still have a beard. Your skin will grow thinner and you will experience an over all loss of muscle mass... but you won't shrink, you will still have monkey arms, and your voice will not change a whit. Hormones are powerful, but they are not magical and they are not a fix-all-instant-vagina-tonic.

There are other things you can do to fix some of these issues. Laser and electrolysis, FFS, Boobs the list goes on and every girl needs to pick which ones are appropriate for her. There are lots of things that you can do to supplement hormones that will help make you look more femme and help with passing. But it is work, and it is usually expensive. And painful. And often humiliating. It takes commitment and dedication and ironically balls - big steel or bronze balls. This is not for sissies - no matter what you get called.

Will you look androgynous when you get done? That depends on how much of the work you choose to do. But remember, very few cis-women look like Marilyn Monroe either. There are lots of cis girls walking around who are over 6 feet tall, with man-hands, or masculine faces, who have no problem holding down jobs or maintaing relationships or living as women. If you want to, and you are committed enough, you too CAN do this.

Does that mean you won't be able to hold down a job? He11 no. I know lots of girls who work. I work. I had an interview this last Monday that lasted over an hour (and I was not pretending to be a guy) for a moderately hefty gig that is 100% customer facing, and I have another one on Friday that will require serious amounts of responsibility. The comment you posted from the internet is nothing but ignorant bigotry. There are certainly girls who can't find work, but look around - there are a lot of cis folks who can't get work either. It might be harder for us to find work... but guess what? Our lives are a bit more complicated than other folks' lives in LOTS of ways.

The bit about the paradox. I think it depends on your motivations. If you want to be a girl because the thought of it gives you a full turgid raging hard-on - hormones and transition are probably not for you. If you need to transition because you are a woman - lack of sexual desire at the thought of it won't deter you in the slightest. In fact you may or may not get turned on by the thought of it. And the good news is that if you start hormones, and you unwittingly are one of the girls in the first camp - you will know it right away (your libido drops almost instantly - definitely in the first 2 weeks) and can stop well before your little buddy goes permanently limp and go back to cross-dressing fantasy land with no shame or permanent damage.


Well, I guess you had better not start, then.

Do you actually try to be hurtful and unhelpful, or is it just incidental to who you are?

[Steph.TS]

Thank you for the replies, I really do want to push forward, I want to be a beautiful woman. those bits of that articles had be really worried, I felt like it was saying that after going on hormones I'd want to be a man again, and no matter what way I wanted to go I wouldn't fit in. I just want to be a happy woman, and feel like I'm beautiful.

[Schatten Lupus]

The two things to remember is hormones can do alot, but they can only do so much. And they are related to the physical sex. Gender is a social construct and the various parts of transitioning is to learn, live, and behave as the opposite gender. Hormones can help you somewhat look more feminine, but that in addition to all the other feminization processes and surgeries will not allow you to pass is you still have a masculine mannerism.
But as for an androgynous look, that may just be a part of it for you, and from what I have read many transwomen go through a period of time where they are too feminine looking to be considered male, but too much manly to be considered female.

[Schatten Lupus]

I just want to be a happy woman, and feel like I'm beautiful.
And you can be. Just remember though that feeling beautiful starts in the head.

[Frances]

I just want to be a happy woman, and feel like I'm beautiful.

Transition does not bring about happiness, just the end of torment. It may give you, however, a fighting chance at happiness. And it does not bring about beauty either. Look around you in any shopping mall, there are plenty of bad looking women and men. You may feel more beautiful to yourself though, and that will make you feel more confident. In truth, most people are adrogynous, but adopt gender expressions that are more gender-role specific to differiente themselves.

For the hormones, they should confirm your gender. If your desire diminishes, you may not be trans and you can stop the process. You should be so lucky, believe me. Even the most succesful trans women would rather have been cis-gendered and not transitioned.

Blunt or not, Stephanie has a point. It is not a pros and cons matter. One transition's because one has to.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Transition does not bring about happiness, just the end of torment. It may give you, however, a fighting chance at happiness. And it does not bring about beauty either. Look around you in any shopping mall, there are plenty of bad looking women and men. You may feel more beautiful to yourself though, and that will make you feel more confident. In truth, most people are adrogynous, but adopt gender expressions that are more gender-role specific to differiente themselves.

For the hormones, they should confirm your gender. If your desire diminishes, you may not be trans and you can stop the process. You should be so lucky, believe me. Even the most succesful trans women would rather have been cis-gendered and not transitioned.

Blunt or not, Stephanie has a point. It is not a pros and cons matter. One transition's because one has to.

well said!

it's normal to want to be beautiful...feeling good and feeling beautiful is an inside thing..
you have no way to experience femaleness except through your inner fantasy woman...we all have this..and it's not talked about alot, but the early transition part where all your inner fantasies get crushed is hard to go through..so it's better to be realistic..
your sex drive may totally disappear, you may look like a freaky mix or like a man, you may get read everywhere..

if you are weighing pro's and con's, the con's are going to be a BIG, and as some have pointed out, it's often only one pro "the end of torment" that propels us forward..

[Melody Moore]

I can only echo what others have said here - Real beauty is something that comes from within. If you are truly happy,
comfortable & confident within yourself that will show, but if you are nervous, paranoid or scared that will show as well.

Some of my long term friends, including my ex-girlfriend have commented on the changes & apparently 'how good I look' in
recent months, but personally I don't see it when I look in the mirror because I don't see me like how others are seeing me.
But I know that something must be different or people wouldn't be paying me compliments, so I do feel good about myself
now. I asked my best trans-girlfriend about this only a few weeks ago & she said it was because I am very happy & radiating
more positive energy & this is what people find really beautiful & most attractive about me.

My life changed very dramatically & this happened when I accepted that I was a female & I freed Melody from her confinement.
& it's been a real boost to my ego when other women come up & compliment me about what I am wearing or about my make-up.
So I believe the key to well-being is how you feel about yourself & whether or not you have truly accepted the person you know
yourself to be. I know I am not the prettiest girl around, but I couldn't really ever be happier because I know there are lots of very
ugly people in this world that don't feel so good about themselves & it shows in their faces.

If you're a person who is sad, angry or frown a lot of the time then you will eventually develop lines & wrinkles on your face,
and the slightest little bit of negativity in your mind & it really will show on your face. My ex-girlfriend was a good example of
this. Yet when she did smile she looked great because she was using different muscles in her face to create an expression that
removed the sad & angry frown lines. So if you are happy & your head is in the right place then you should really look great.

[Hope]

I just want to be a happy woman, and feel like I'm beautiful.

You can have both of those things - but you have to work at them. A vagina will not make you pretty, or happy. But the process involved in getting one, affords you ample opportunity to have both if you are willing to do the work. But you have to do the work. And it is WORK. And it is horribly crushing debilitating work sometimes. There is no way to express how much being called "He" or "sir" hurts when you are wearing the full kit and can't think of anything more you could do to improve your presentation. You have to be ready to handle that.

But if you do it, and you do the work including the work that seems to be completely unrelated to transition - you can be happy.

Beauty is, as others have pointed out, a very individual thing and depends a lot on how a woman feels about herself. And it also depends a lot on what the person looking finds beautiful. I promise you that from a purely objective, physical, standpoint I am about the ugliest woman you will ever meet - but I work what I have, I love (most of) my life, and I have been hit on.

And I will be damned if I am going to continue to be the ugliest girl in the world. There is work to do and I am up for it.

You can be too.

[Bree-asaurus]

Work on being happy with just being a woman and being yourself. Even if you are a beautiful woman, would you even know it? I'm running under the assumption that I am as pretty as everyone says... I don't believe it. If I am ugly, well, then I don't have a point. But if I am actually pretty, I sure as hell don't see it and it doesn't make me any happier.

Everyone wants to be gorgeous. So sure, go for it. But don't make that the be-all-end-all for you, because you will be severely disappointed. Like others have said, happiness comes from within, not whether or not hormones make you look like a model.

EDIT: I guess I still have a point if I am actually ugly. What am I going to do? Spend tons of money on FFS or boob jobs to make me feel pretty? Is that what every other woman (and man) does to make them feel good about themselves? Nope. You can be ugly as sin and be happy. Acceptance leads to happiness.

[Steph.TS]

Work on being happy with just being a woman and being yourself. Even if you are a beautiful woman, would you even know it? I'm running under the assumption that I am as pretty as everyone says... I don't believe it. If I am ugly, well, then I don't have a point. But if I am actually pretty, I sure as hell don't see it and it doesn't make me any happier.

Everyone wants to be gorgeous. So sure, go for it. But don't make that the be-all-end-all for you, because you will be severely disappointed. Like others have said, happiness comes from within, not whether or not hormones make you look like a model.

EDIT: I guess I still have a point if I am actually ugly. What am I going to do? Spend tons of money on FFS or boob jobs to make me feel pretty? Is that what every other woman (and man) does to make them feel good about themselves? Nope. You can be ugly as sin and be happy. Acceptance leads to happiness.

If that's you in your avatar, I'd be so happy to be so pretty. personally I'm not looking to be a model or anything, but I do want to be desirable, to be passable, I guess I want what any woman wants. when I went to my latest therapy session, my therapist told me she could see me being a woman, and that made me feel better.

Hope, please let me know what work I need to do, right now I'm working on hair removal, and learning a bit about make up. but I know I have ALOT to do, I want to learn how to do my hair better, wear make up well, I have some moles I want to remove as well. I'm dieting, exercising and trying to keep my weight low while improving my health.

[PortiaHoney]

Beauty comes from within - but it can be helped by the stuff that comes in tubes and bottles.

Whether or not you believe you can "look like a woman", how you behave is a bigger indicator of whether or not you are one.

HRT helps but is not a "cure".

You can put off the inevitable by building problems, if it is inevitable, you will reach a point when you just accept the limitations and get on with what needs to be done.

But, being realistic about what can and does happen is the best defense against disappointment and losing the will to live.

Finally, it doesn't matter how good you look, how much other people accept you, how well you adapt to a very different lifestyle, if you don't feel good about who you are now, you never will. Work on your accepting yourself as the person you are right now and then start to progress towards the changes you want to make.

There are enough critics in the world, you don't need to be the one you can't get away from.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Im not beautiefull never will be if that has to do with looks H R T would not do much in the way of change for me mind or body.

im 63 so H R T is only body maintinance to allow my body to remain healthy.

F F S is not going to happen my facal features are too male any way.
Im a woman with a male back ground & thats not changeing.

Im accepted as a woman where ever i go & my acceptance does not come from how i look or not. it comes from telling every one this is who i am. tho they do see in me a real woman just im different thats all. intersex is a part of who i am as well.

So first , you must accept who you are, thats the major detail . after that you be who you really are. & as you accept who you are others will as well.

Each person has thier own idears how to go about details & things you work yours out your way & with help if you need it.
I did not get accepted by sitting on my bum & doing nothing i was out there telling people what was going on as to who i was & where i was going ,

its called being in the media. for me it was .

You said you wont or need to blend in & not stick out ... well i sure as am different every one who sees me knows im different just the mere fact im in front of people is enough & i could not blend in if i tryed to.
& i dont wont to because im out there with people & talking is how i get to know so many people , so you see its different & more so for me.

Some of the reasons that helped me was .

Is being sure of my self , selfesteem , self assurance . knowing who i am, & being proud of who i am. one confident .....woman.... this is what its about. not being a wimp hideing away behind a door both body wise & mind wise.

I know some may think oh yea all made up sitting behind this computer ,.....SORRY......im for real ,put my name on the net .

We make our own stumbling blocks so we cant move forward well . tho i had a lot of issues to over come & none were trans related . so when or if you do see this woman you would see the total diffference of how i am now to how i was for 50 years of my life, so thats my change,

After i wrote this i had a think to my self .& ill add . what im trying to do or say is regardless of wether we are dressers or trans or like my self Im accepted by so many people because this is who i am yes im different i cant help being this way i am ,

so as a person , people just accept me on that basis im not trying to be some one im not . my pic..... is ......what people see when they see me meet me what ever, you see i did not transition as such because i still look the same just changed my clothes & a little surgery, & whats important for me is i can express who i am...thats whats so .....NEAT....

...noeleena...

[Aprilrain]

I totally understand your fears, I mean who wants to be a freak right, but you know in your heart If you are a woman or not and really that is what this comes down to. Luckily you can do small things like laser, make up, growing out your hair and therapy with little worry over making a huge mistake. I maybe crucified for saying it but you could even go on hormones for a while to see if you like the effects. Mostly they are mental/emotional, especially at first. Be careful though they sneak up on you and before you know it people will be calling you Miss when you're not trying! I get nothing but compliments about my looks and a lot of that is just people being nice, I'm sure, or "wow I was expecting a dude in a dress but you actually kinda look like a girl" But what matters most is how you feel about your self. When I'm forced to be in boy mode because of family (for now) I feel frozen but when I'm free to be me (April) I come alive and that is what people respond to especially other women. Most people regardless of gender just like being around people who are comfortable with themselves. If there is one thing that everyone has said to me it's that there was a wall before and now that wall is gone. A very good friend of almost twenty years told me that she felt closer to me in 2 days than ever before because the wall had come down.

I think for all of us it comes down to: can I go on as I am or do I need to transition to be whole. For me answering this question has been about going out and trying it something my mind and body have been trying to get me to do since high school at least but fear kept me locked up. none of my fears have come true. Of course I'm still unemployed but I guess thats better than dead.

[Avana]

Transition does not bring about happiness, just the end of torment


Well maybe HRT ends some of the torment, but I think transition is a process of finding happiness and joy in that it is a process of finding oneself. In that regard I think everyone in the world is in some state of transition, and those who aren't are stuck in their ego.


"For me there is only the traveling on the paths that have heart, on any path that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge for me is to traverse its full length. And there I travel—looking, looking, breathlessly."


"People don't listen - I've been saying change, change, change, change, change for all my life, and yet people don't want me to change, but I will, and I do, and that's the whole point." - Genesis P-Orridge

[Traci Elizabeth]

I hate to be simplistic but in truth, being a woman or a man for that matter is quite simplistic. It does not take FFS, BA, SRS, or even HRT.

The ONE thing that makes your gender what it is, is within your brain. If you believe with all your might that you are a woman, then you are - plan and simple.

The self-fulfilling prophecy (aka Pygmalion Effect) is so absolutely powerful that you are who you believe you are. And if you believe it, and live it, with every breath you take, that is who you are.

Those of us who can transition within our self, do not need any of the surgeries, hair removal, or medications to tell us we are female (or male). Those things if sought after, are used like any other woman to "augment/refine" oneself - NOT define oneself.

If on the other hand, you are relying on those surgeries, hair removal, or medications to "make" you a woman, then you are in for a very sad unfulfilled life.

Gender is created in your mind (a product of your inner self), not your physical appearance. Remember that and you will succeed,

[Aprilrain]

I hate to be simplistic but in truth, being a woman or a man for that matter is quite simplistic. It does not take FFS, BA, SRS, or even HRT.

The ONE thing that makes your gender what it is, is within your brain. If you believe with all your might that you are a woman, then you are - plan and simple.

The self-fulfilling prophecy (aka Pygmalion Effect) is so absolutely powerful that you are who you believe you are. And if you believe it, and live it, with every breath you take, that is who you are.

Those of us who can transition within our self, do not need any of the surgeries, hair removal, or medications to tell us we are female (or male). Those things if sought after, are used like any other woman to "augment/refine" oneself - NOT define oneself.

If on the other hand, you are relying on those surgeries, hair removal, or medications to "make" you a woman, then you are in for a very sad unfulfilled life.

Gender is created in your mind (a product of your inner self), not your physical appearance. Remember that and you will succeed,

Thats all well and good Traci but the point is to get everybody else to go along with you. What difference does it make If I believe I'm a woman but I have facial hair and look like a dude in a dress in the women's restroom and the other ladies in there start screaming! Anyway haven't you done all the hormones, hair removal, and surgeries?

[Frances]

Thats all well and good Traci but the point is to get everybody else to go along with you. What difference does it make If I believe I'm a woman but I have facial hair and look like a dude in a dress in the women's restroom and the other ladies in there start screaming! Anyway haven't you done all the hormones, hair removal, and surgeries?

I agree. The whole point of transition is making visible what is inside, not trying to convince people to overlook the outside.

[Bree-asaurus]

Thats all well and good Traci but the point is to get everybody else to go along with you. What difference does it make If I believe I'm a woman but I have facial hair and look like a dude in a dress in the women's restroom and the other ladies in there start screaming! Anyway haven't you done all the hormones, hair removal, and surgeries?

We're talking about two different things here...

One, is to find happiness in one's self, which you won't find by cutting yourself up, pulling hair out or undergoing HRT.

Two, is fitting in, which probably requires quite a bit of work for most people, unless you transition when your 13. And to fit in, you don't need to look like a model, you just need to look like an average woman.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Thats all well and good Traci but the point is to get everybody else to go along with you. What difference does it make If I believe I'm a woman but I have facial hair and look like a dude in a dress in the women's restroom and the other ladies in there start screaming! Anyway haven't you done all the hormones, hair removal, and surgeries?

exactly...i think traci your statement is a bit pollyanna.....to argue that it's all on the inside is leaving out a big part of it...

if you say "i'm a woman" and everyone that looks at you or talks to you just treats you like a man, it's a pretty unrewarding way to experience life...

[Aprilrain]

Fances, all I can say is HOLY SHIT!

Bree_k, I have to disagree, by definition there is an incongruence between the TS's brain and body that causes psychological despair often to the point of suicidal thoughts or actions. I can't speak for anyone else but my GID was profound even when I was alone and seeing my male body only made it worse. If I were the last person on earth, i.e. no one to have to "fit in" with I would be "mining" drug stores for all the estrogen I could get! You cannot tell me that HRT, hair removal and surgeries aren't necessary for the TS's mental/emotional well being. I agree that If you suffer from depression or a host of other potential problems transition will not fix that but to tell a TS all (s)he needs is to believe (s)he is a man or woman is a bit naive

Anyway its safe to say that the Stephts Knows she is trans and that is why she is asking questions about HRT. The OPs original concern was if HRT will turn her into a freak or reduce her desire to feminize herself. My limited personal experience tells me NO on both counts. Though the first concern is rather subjective. Hormones have, in a rather short amount of time, given me a more feminine appearance. I don't feel like a freak I have friends who treat me like anyone else so I assume they don't think I'm a freak. Who knows what the average person at the Mall thinks! I like the changes that are taking place and I only wish it would happen faster.

[Traci Elizabeth]

traci your statement is a bit pollyanna.....

Oh Really! It is not being foolish or blindly optimistic when I have personal experience with my own transition to support my claim as well as a few other female friends I know who would also take issue with you.

Women come in all sizes, all levels of so-called attractiveness or lack thereof, and a very wide variance in voice, pitch, masculinity, and hair growth (especially post-menopausal women for the latter). In fact, most customers for facial hair removal are women not men. But it is not Pollyanna to state that all of those women are in fact "women."

The same holds true of trans women. And as long as their internal self knows them to be a woman, they are. Everything else is just plain window dressing.

Even when I first started going out in public BEFORE any HRT, I walked into grocery stores, malls, gas stations, etc. with the knowledge that I was a woman. I held my head up high and was very confident in who I was - a woman.

And guess what, NO ONE ever challenged me and I would argue that most of the people who saw me could have cared less about me.

People are too busy living or dealing with their own lives to engage you in questioning your femininity. And if a few do, so what?

I will stick my neck out and say that WE are our own worse enemies, critics, and walk around being paranoid about what others are thinking about us.

If we are not positive and confident about our womanhood, then we conjure up an array of negatives in our head. When in reality, people in general could care less about us.

Bottom line, I hold my original position in my first post to be true.

Challenge me all you want but that will not alter that I am a confident woman and it came from within!

There are far too many Naysayers and Doomsayers in our community. They have 1,000 reasons why they "can't" be a woman. And if you believe that, then you won't.

To the person who said they can't be a woman because they have facial hair????? I thought that is what razors where for and foundation!!!!!!!

Hugs,
Traci

[Melody Moore]

I will stick my neck out and say that WE are our own worse enemies, critics, and walk around being paranoid about what others are thinking about us.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. The same can be said about fear
itself. The monsters & demons we face in life are those we created ourselves.

If you are a positive & happy spirit who is just getting on with your life & you are not caught up & dramas &
crap people will find you attractive & good to be around. But if you're a pessimistic "Sad Sack" who likes to
whine all day about everything & about how the world owes you something then people won't want anything
to do with you. And I can't say that I blame them. If you want to be attractive as a female, then BE a good
female & people won't think twice about you & they won't even want to question your gender identity.

[Steph.TS]

I think I have a bit of a better understanding, I must say, one of the reasons I'm in therapy is to make sure I am a woman on the inside, and not just trying to convince myself of that or make myself into a woman, because I hear on this forum that people that had the wrong the gender (born that way or transitioned then realized they should have kept their first gender) hurt them sometimes to the point of suicide. I'm trying to take my time, but at thte same time I can't wait to transition, I'd be overjoyed if I woke up tomorrow as a woman!

I want to live free, be myself but I worry about just about everything, I don't want to offend my family, friends, co-workers, I don't want to be made fun of teased, because I'm an easy target for having transitioned. I know this path isn't easy, and it takes courage, and real inner strength to accomplish this but my dream is to wake up with a feminine body, a nice face, and no question in my mind or anyone elses for that matter that I am in fact a woman. I envy cisgender GG, they know what their gender is have no question about it and they don't have to fight to be the woman they know themselves to be. part of me wants to be open about this with my friends and family but how can I when I don't I'll be accepted, let alone that I am indeed a woman and should transition... at the moment, I'm in therapy, moving forward hoping to resolve my doubts fairly quickly.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Traci pls do not paint what i am saying into something that it's not..
your statement that we are all women is true.. your statement that it comes from inside is true...but the sentiment that everything else is "just window dressing" is pollyanna..

i'm not a naysayer or doomsayer, i completely reject that..
i'm am pragmatic and I'm a realist, i am far from my worst enemy,
i'm not interested in waiting until i'm older to transition,
i'm not interested in seeing a male body when i look at myself and pretending i look female....
i won't settle for "not being challenged" at a gas station...i'm not interested in just not being thought about...i'm not talking about passersby...i couldn't give a crap about about walking around a mall,
i'm talking about going to a job interview as a woman and getting the job..i'm talking about not worrying ever again about being accosted in the bathroom,
i'm talking about being able to look at the curves of my body, and my soft skin and yes my private parts, and smiling in quiet satisfaction, my physical being totally aligned with my mental feeling......this is a wonderous feeling..
pls do not imply that i am saying this makes me any more or less of a woman that anyone else..that's not what i'm saying..i'm saying it's ridiculous to say it doesn't matter...

if it's all on the inside and all you have to do is accept yourself as a woman, then why are you transitioning at all? why present as a woman? why wear women's clothes? just say to yourself you are a woman and be happy...it's really that simple! no?

[Bree-asaurus]

How about this then... we're all trannies here, and we all find out way to happiness in different ways.

[Aprilrain]

To the person who said they can't be a woman because they have facial hair????? I thought that is what razors where for and foundation!!!!!!!


Who said this? I've read all the post in this thread and NO ONE said this. What I did say was that the point of all the "window dressing" as you call it, is to align ones body with ones mind. If one is truly TS this has been proven time and again to be the most effective means of dealing with Gender Identity Disorder. You are either fooling yourself or deliberately spreading misinformation if you really think that the physical aspects of transition are unimportant or even optional. If this were true than TS woman wouldn't unanimously report positive mental and emotional changes from HRT. For many TS woman FFS is absolutely necessary to get on in the world as a woman. Perhaps for some SRS is optional since adult humans use secondary sex characteristics to determine gender, but for many SRS is necessary for personal reasons.
No one is saying that these things will make you feel like or believe you are a woman what we ARE saying is that if you are TS these things are more than just "window dressing" Regardless of wether or not gas station attendents care what you look like the rest of the world will NOT gender a male bodied person female just because that person "feels" or "believes" themselves to be a woman. Ask any TS girl here how much it sucks getting called sir when she's all done up, shaved, foundation and everything!

[Sophora]

How about this then... we're all trannies here, and we all find out way to happiness in different ways.

I like that. I think that is root of the the journey is to find happiness.

[RachelDee]

I'd like to thank the original poster to making this, as its sparked some very interesting responses which have all been things worth contemplating.

As someone who is hopefully starting HRT next week (fingers crossed) I can certainly relate to all the questions/concerns that come up. It can seem like the more research you do to make yourself prepared & understand, the less prepared and the less you do feel you understand lol. So much conflicting info out there, and it pretty much all boils down to "You dont know what will happen until you try it."

Considering the seriousness of it all, not knowing the true results until "after" seems to pretty much be a gamble, with your life & happiness. A chance to be happy, or.... but then what choice do I have? I have gone back and forth with this a lot.

My main concerns with HRT have been "Will I end up an inbetween freakish thing" and "Will I be one of the unlucky ones, that trys it then ends up dead or having a stroke (which might be worse than being dead depending..)".

Them making me more androgynous would be a blessing. Them making me into a man with small boobs.... probably not. Them causing serious medical complications... yeah I might well wish I had never tried.

But you either take them and see, or you sit on the fence where its safe (and where u do nothing but waste your life away debating).

It's good that the poster is taking time to work out if its right for them or not. But i think the fact you are in therapy for this means there is an issue there, and if you are considering HRT then thats a pretty good indication that its something *more*.

When I was 22 I made an horrific choice. I discovered what GID was for the first time, that other people felt like this + that I was not alone/a freak/bad/perverted etc.

I looked up hormones, I looked up FFS/SRS etc etc. I went to my GP. But I gave up, I thought that it was a hopeless fantasy/feeling -- other people transition. Not me. I'm not strong enough for that, I was kidding myself if I thought it was possible to become female. People around me were upset by it, it would cause me to end up alone and with no friends or hopes for relationships. So I tried to erase the entire thing from memory, and tried to fix my feelings by making myself feel better as a 'male'.

Well im sure you can see how that worked out.... all I did was waste 6 years of my life. I had OCD as a companion though to help with that.

Seeing the other people in this forum has given me a lot of hope though :) and especially how pretty a lot of people do look (like aprilrain^ -- If I looked half as good as you i'd be very pleased! :)). I don't think there is a person on this forum that does not wish to look pretty, but its not a requirement of being female. Even if there seems to be a lot of pressure that all girls should look like Katy Perry, else they are not real women.

Whenever I start to feel bad about myself in terms of looks, I (and hope this does not sound horrible!) look round at people who are female but arent exactly pretty.... yet they are happy. They are treated as female.... they have lives and jobs and families. It does not make it better (I still beat myself up a lot over how I will never get to be as pretty as some people I admire.) but it helps a little.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Who said this? I've read all the post in this thread and NO ONE said this. What I did say was that the point of all the "window dressing" as you call it, is to align ones body with ones mind. If one is truly TS this has been proven time and again to be the most effective means of dealing with Gender Identity Disorder. You are either fooling yourself or deliberately spreading misinformation if you really think that the physical aspects of transition are unimportant or even optional. If this were true than TS woman wouldn't unanimously report positive mental and emotional changes from HRT. For many TS woman FFS is absolutely necessary to get on in the world as a woman. Perhaps for some SRS is optional since adult humans use secondary sex characteristics to determine gender, but for many SRS is necessary for personal reasons.
No one is saying that these things will make you feel like or believe you are a woman what we ARE saying is that if you are TS these things are more than just "window dressing" Regardless of wether or not gas station attendents care what you look like the rest of the world will NOT gender a male bodied person female just because that person "feels" or "believes" themselves to be a woman. Ask any TS girl here how much it sucks getting called sir when she's all done up, shaved, foundation and everything!



You have missed the forest because of the trees my friend, and are placing way too much emphases on HRT and all the surgeries. You have totally missed the basic understanding of "Gender." It does not rest in physical attributes but mental.

Why is it that the "Standards of Care" require physiological analysis, counseling, and Real Life Experience BEFORE HRT or any surgeries. It is to determine, if in fact, your gender (within you brain) is the opposite of your physical sexual characteristics.

You have missed the boat my friend. I can also assure you that there are many TS women who because of finances could never afford any surgeries yet live very productive and happy lives as women. There are also those who are married and have supportive wives or in meaningful relationships that opt NOT to have any surgeries for the sake of the relationship itself yet live happy lives as females.

There are those who's medical conditions or general health prohibit them from having any surgeries yet live happily as women.

Then there are those in their November or December phase of life who opt for NO surgeries at this point in their lives yet they too live happily as women.

There are many on this site who do not look like a woman by their own admission yet live as women and are confident in their womanhood despite their physical appearance or looks or comments they might receive by a few.

So to claim that being a woman rests in FFS, BA, or SRS totally ignores what "gender" is all about - that space between your ears!

That is why I call all the surgeries "window dressing." Some want it, some don't. Some my feel they need it while others don't. none of those surgeries have ANYTHING to do with me FEMALE!!!!!!!

You can take a masculine guy who loves his masculinity and manhood and subject him to FFS, BA, and SRS at the same time. When he comes out of recovery do you think he is now Female?

But lets not for get our brothers who were born female yet know they are male. A lot of woman have small breast and would not necessarily want them removed and the medical procedures to produce a viable penis are years/decades away.

So do all of our brothers who opt for NO surgeries any less male than you are female if you had all the surgeries? Ask them, and I am sure you will have a resounding NO!

Lets not also forget that TS Women up until the the 20th century did not have HRT, or any surgeries available to them. So does that make all the TS women since the beginning of time men because they had no surgeries or chemicals???

I think your position is way too simplistic and naive.

Surgeries and HRT do NOT make the woman - it's her brain. Every thing is and I quote "window dressing!"

[Aprilrain]

What you call "window dressing" I call modern medical therapy. I'm starting to wonder if you even read the post you are responding to. I already said that HRT and surgeries don't make one feel or think they are a woman. Lets face it if you find your self questioning your gender chances are you are TS. The number of messed up cisgendered folks who think they are the other gender is so vanishingly small as to be dismissible. The problem isn't wether I believe I'm a woman (I don't believe it I KNOW it) But that doesn't help me if no one else can SEE it. Humans are a visual creature and we automatically determine gender mostly based on secondary sex characteristics which Is why HRT IS an important therapy for TSs. But what's more important, to me at least, is what I see when I look at myself. There is nothing more heartbreaking than knowing your a woman and seeing a man stare back at you in mirror. Perhaps this is not your experience, perhaps you didn't suffer from GID perhaps you were not at the point where death seemed like a better option than continuing on in the wrong body. I don't know, what I do know is that your original post which sparked this whole debate: 1, didn't address the OPs concerns and 2, gives the impression that someone who is quite far along in her PHYSICAL transition believes physical transition is optional, which seems rather hypocritical to me. Your right many people can not take hormones or have surgery for medical or financial reasons. That doesn't mean that they don't wish they could!

To anyone woman who wishes to see a dude staring back at her in the mirror, my hat is off to you! For the rest of us who KNOW we are woman but have some biology to overcome there is work to be done!

[Frances]

I don't mean to be sacarstic, but some of us get killed and beaten by strangers for not passing well enough. Also, some of us get beaten by close ones for mentioning anything about not being the gender we seem to be. Also, some of us turn into complete gorillas by age 40. It took me a long time before I could buy lipstick without being scared of physical harm.

It took some time before I felt I passed enough and stopped being scared of strangers. And while that happened before HRT, hormones surely enhanced it afterwards. SRS on the other hand makes me feel more legitimate in intimate women's spaces, especially where I am known, like at work. I have not had any FFS, BA, and could pass before HRT, but hair was a huge issue for me and the main reason I delayed transition for so long. I have spent $20,000 and am still not done.

I did a lot before HRT though. I was on Propecia for a few years and took a large amount of phyto-estrogens every day. I worked on my voice, grew my hair and plucked my eyebrows. I did not have to change my mannerisms or try to emulate women, I was one already, albeit with a very masculinized body.

I agree with almost everyone in this thread. Anyone wishing to transition should get over the fear of others (which I did before HRT), but body modification is necessary for some to avoid a lot of hardship.

[Traci Elizabeth]

What you call "window dressing" I call modern medical therapy. I'm starting to wonder if you even read the post you are responding to. I already said that HRT and surgeries don't make one feel or think they are a woman. Lets face it if you find your self questioning your gender chances are you are TS. The number of messed up cisgendered folks who think they are the other gender is so vanishingly small as to be dismissible. The problem isn't wether I believe I'm a woman (I don't believe it I KNOW it) But that doesn't help me if no one else can SEE it. Humans are a visual creature and we automatically determine gender mostly based on secondary sex characteristics which Is why HRT IS an important therapy for TSs. But what's more important, to me at least, is what I see when I look at myself. There is nothing more heartbreaking than knowing your a woman and seeing a man stare back at you in mirror. Perhaps this is not your experience, perhaps you didn't suffer from GID perhaps you were not at the point where death seemed like a better option than continuing on in the wrong body. I don't know, what I do know is that your original post which sparked this whole debate: 1, didn't address the OPs concerns and 2, gives the impression that someone who is quite far along in her PHYSICAL transition believes physical transition is optional, which seems rather hypocritical to me. Your right many people can not take hormones or have surgery for medical or financial reasons. That doesn't mean that they don't wish they could!

To anyone woman who wishes to see a dude staring back at her in the mirror, my hat is off to you! For the rest of us who KNOW we are woman but have some biology to overcome there is work to be done!


This will be my last response. Trust me, I too went through the phase that life, not as a woman, was not worth living, and to where I could not live ONE more day hiding my correct gender.

But I am through my TS transition and living totally as a woman to include all the legal and court processes to obtain the "F" on all my identification and legal name change, I no longer live in the TS world but have moved on in my life as a very happy woman in all respects.

But I have not forgotten my journey and I remember from my earliest memories as a child knowing I was a girl (then) way before any knowledge of TS. I have been down the Psychiatrist road and have undergone brain scans and low and behold, I have a female brain. Thus when I looked in the mirror, I saw a woman, never a man.

My premise goes back to what I have said all along. Being a woman or guy is mental. If you don't like the "window dressing" fine, change it if you desire but don't portray that all those women since the beginning of time to be less of a woman because they do not share your feelings or have not or ever will get any surgeries.

Finally, if you look in the mirror and see a man - then that is what you are.

If on the other hand like many others, if you look in the mirror and see a woman regardless of your physical attributes, then you are a woman.

[Alicia Ryanne]

AprilRain and Frances..I think you both hit the nail on the head pretty accurately. Most transexual women feel the need to transition BECAUSE the body doesnt look female. No matter how much I believe I am female on the inside, no matter that my nails are painted purple, if i go out without "dolling up", I will 100% get sir'd. And what woman wants to be called Sir?
In order to function effectively in society, yes, some physical changes do need to happen. Sure....I could dress up, do my make up, use fake breast forms and go on about my life living as women....and ultimately would be taken as such since i CAN make myself look good, at the end of the day, my body still wouldnt match my mind. Having fake breast forms are not boobs. Having a penis, well, just isnt a vagina. So...we do surgeries to make ourselves feel right with ourselves.
But, society also has to SEE me as a female in order for me to feel right. Sure, the "mental" part comes first, but, that alone will never define someone to the rest of the world as female(pr male in the reverse situation ftm).

I believe Traci means well, but, I dont think its right to say anyone is missing the boat. Everyone has their own feelings on what makes them THEM. For her, maybe its more mental and she could look like a gorilla and not care. For me, like the OP, I want to look like an attractive female and thats part of who I AM. So i will do what is necessary for the world to see me as an attractive woman.
Nobody is an island. Everyone, and I mean 100% everyone does react to society in some way shape or form...even a hobbit.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Traci now you are simply saying that what you did "matters" and what practically everybody else does/or wants to do is "window dressing" and doesn't really matter...window dressing is not a very nice way to say it either...

It is very interesting that you can call major surgeries window dressing, but you laud the fact that you've changed your name and you "legally" are a woman..

Being a woman on the inside is nothing more than a starting point.....it is the base case scenario...it is a necessary part of a successful transition.
If you can't think of yourself as a woman, then transition is clearly not for you...who ever said differently? i'll answer that...nobody...

you didnt want to answer my question ...if only what you mentally think matters , then why change your name? why wear makeup? why do anything?
of course, it's a trick question we almost universally want to do everything possible to maximize the amount of feedback we get from the world that we are female...so we change our names, and we change our hormones and we change our bodies if we can..and why on earth do you have such a problem with that?

If you can't afford surgeries or HRT, or you are afraid, or you are not healthy, then you don't have a choice and you must rely on a positive mindset and a willingness to ignore the mirror, and live your own best life..
but in a thread about the pros and cons of HRT, the idea that it's not necessary because all you have to do is concentrate on your inner woman is not constructive at all..especially to younger transsexuals that can benefit the most from HRT

[Aprilrain]

don't portray that all those women since the beginning of time to be less of a woman because they do not share your feelings or have not or ever will get any surgeries.

Finally, if you look in the mirror and see a man - then that is what you are.


I never said anyone is more or less of anything so don't put words in my mouth.

I feel deeply for those that came before who did not have the medical options we have today. I'm quite certain most of them had hard short lives. This is actually still true as many TSs who are unable to come to terms with GID either kill themselves or find ways to end their lives, like enlisting during war. I'm sure there are examples throughout history of certain individuals who through the luck of the draw were blessed with a small frame and androgynous looks so they could pass with minimal effort but for every one of those individuals there were thousands more who could never hope to pass. Thank god we live in a time when modern science has made all sorts of things previously unthinkable possible like flying for instance.

I'm not stupid, delusional or blind there for when I look in the mirror I see what the light reflects not what I want to see. I currently have the body of a man so I see a rasied brow, square hairline, bigger nose, no hips, no boobs (well starting to get some) and a penis. because my eyes work doesn't make me any less of a woman. If you wish to delude yourself into thinking your male body looked like a woman's be my guest. I'm guessing your wife didn't see a woman when she look at her husband, at least not when she first married HIM.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Traci now you are simply saying that what you did "matters" and what practically everybody else does/or wants to do is "window dressing"


Absolutely NOT! I too have done some "window dressing" but my point is that you have to be a woman from within to be successful. All the surgeries in the world will not "make" you a woman. Only your inner self does that. Don't take "window dressing" as a negative after all window dressing adds to or modifies what was not there before. Even the most glamorous starlet can find faults in her appearance but it is all "window dressing" and unless you can afford all the enhancements that say a Joan Rivers is famous for, we all pretty much look the same in our 80's and 90's.

[Hope]

Traci pls do not paint what i am saying into something that it's not..
your statement that we are all women is true.. your statement that it comes from inside is true...but the sentiment that everything else is "just window dressing" is pollyanna..

i'm not a naysayer or doomsayer, i completely reject that..
i'm am pragmatic and I'm a realist, i am far from my worst enemy,
i'm not interested in waiting until i'm older to transition,
i'm not interested in seeing a male body when i look at myself and pretending i look female....
i won't settle for "not being challenged" at a gas station...i'm not interested in just not being thought about...i'm not talking about passersby...i couldn't give a crap about about walking around a mall,
i'm talking about going to a job interview as a woman and getting the job..i'm talking about not worrying ever again about being accosted in the bathroom,
i'm talking about being able to look at the curves of my body, and my soft skin and yes my private parts, and smiling in quiet satisfaction, my physical being totally aligned with my mental feeling......this is a wonderous feeling..
pls do not imply that i am saying this makes me any more or less of a woman that anyone else..that's not what i'm saying..i'm saying it's ridiculous to say it doesn't matter...

if it's all on the inside and all you have to do is accept yourself as a woman, then why are you transitioning at all? why present as a woman? why wear women's clothes? just say to yourself you are a woman and be happy...it's really that simple! no?

THIS.

1000, 1,000,000, 1 bazillion times, THIS.

And - seriously, Kaitlyn, get out of my head.

Telling ANYONE - particularly a trans person - that the way that one presents oneself to the world is irrelevant is either ignorance or sadism. When it comes from someone who has done a lot of work and endured surgery to modify one's own appearance... it is hard to believe that it is ignorance.