Androgyny?

[Sophie86]

Reine posted the comment below in another thread, and I didn't want to go off on a tangent there, so I thought I would follow it up here.


If my SO should wear the nail polish in guy mode, or were to begin wearing a bra, femme earrings, perhaps light makeup, etc in guy mode, then he would not look androgynous at all. He would rather look like he was trying to appear feminine and it would be noticeable. I'm not saying it is wrong to do this, some people do want to slowly morph into a more permanent feminine appearance since this is perhaps more in line with their fundamental gender identity.

But, I think it is misleading for someone to tell themselves that men who wear nail polish, earrings, makeup, etc are androgynous in our culture, unless of course they are goth or at the cutting edge of the NYC fashion scene.

I'm a bit puzzled by this. Long hair and earrings are such a common place among men these days, it seems to me that a little more is needed to qualify as "androgynous". If one adds long hair and earrings plus having a shaved body, then I guess one has entered androgynous territory, but do painted nails push one all the way through into femme-land? Does it depend on the color? Does it depend on the setting? What are your thoughts?

["Mary"]

This is so hard to answer. Seems like one of those "I know it when I see it " things.

Good question. I'm looking forward to seeing how other folks feel about this.

[sissystephanie]

You are right, long hair and earrings are much more common among men now. One of my close friends at my Church wears his hair in a long ponytail and has studs in both ears! But he is certainly not androgynous!! Not at all!! I think more definition is needed!!

[PretzelGirl]

I have long hair and earrings and shave my body. But my body being shaved isn't much of an outward appearance change in my opinion. So I think it would require at least one more step to be physically androgynous since as the others have said, long hair and earrings aren't that uncommon. Now for dressing, it seems that the opinions there vary greatly. But you seem to be leaning towards the physical, so I will leave it at that.

[Eryn]

In our local Macy's there are two men working in different areas of the cosmetics department, Both wear makeup but neither is trying to present as a woman. Both wear male clothes and one has a perennial stubble. I'd call that fairly androgynous!

[Kate Lynn]

I have short hair,actually they call it a high and tight haircut,a handlebar mustache,and I don't shave my body,but I prefer to wear womens low rise jeans,boy cut panties,knee highs,sometimes pantyhose,own one bra but never wear it,I never wear a skirt or dress outside the house,and own only three pairs of mens shoes,two pair of Lowa combat boots,and a pair of zero guard Mickey Mouse arctic boots for winter.

So what do the experts in here claim I am,oh,when I was 7 years old my grandpa told me what an expert was,we used to get them from the university agraculture dept.

X is an unknown factor,and a spert is a drip under preassure.

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

I think a lot more than painted nails, long hair and a shaved body is required to enter androgyny. Attitude, self respect, and a natural feminine state for those who are Male/Female androgynous people. I agree with Reine that maybe some men who simply wear make-up, paint the nails, and bra are not androgynous to me. I think an androgynous person is one who can ride that fence that separates male and female. They need little makeup if any at all and still pass as male or female. Maybe they have no desire to change but due to their appearance, can be effective in what ever state they like at the time. They don't need long hair, earings, bra or anything else because they have what nature gave them and I am so jealous of that too.

[ReineD]

In our local Macy's there are two men working in different areas of the cosmetics department, Both wear makeup but neither is trying to present as a woman. Both wear male clothes and one has a perennial stubble. I'd call that fairly androgynous!

I did make my statement above with a specific image in mind. There's no way that my words can apply to every different look out there. :)

If the guys at Macy's have a stubble Ã* la Brad Pitt, this is another look entirely. Plus, they are in the makeup industry and it could easily be seen as a fashion statement made to get people to notice and buy the makeup. I'm also guessing they were youngish, and did not have middle-aged bodies? And as mentioned in my original post, there are also the Goths who wear the heavy black eye liner and the black fingernails. People who see them, see goth, not crossdresser. Same with the ethereal, tall, aesthetic looking young male Ã* la Andy Warhol who moves among the New York artistic elite and can get away with a creative look. All these people are genres distinct from crossdressing.

The image I had in mind was, the every day, middle aged (40s +), guy out in middle America with perhaps a bit of a paunch, who goes to the grocery store, bank, and Lowes wearing a bra with perhaps a femmish looking blouse (or a hot pink polo shirt), earrings (not the guy stud type earrings), maybe a little mascara & lip gloss, has tweaked eyebrows with an arch and pink or purple toenails. This person will look as if he is trying to look feminine. And unfortunately, he will likely be taken as being gay. (For those of you who are gay, this is not a slam. But judging by the posts I've read in this forum, there are few hetero CDers who want to come off as being gay).

In our culture there's a distinction between a male having long hair and wearing guy studs in his ears which is a genre that is not associated with crossdressing (in fact, many bikers have that look), and a male who wears nail polish and a bra or a blouse, femmish earrings, (and perhaps a little lip gloss). There's nothing wrong with the latter, but my point is that if a CDer dresses this way and not "all the way" because he wants to avoid giving the impression he is feminine, he is fooling himself if he thinks that people won't think him feminine. Or gay.

He should just go all out and dress and enjoy himself. :)

[Joanne f]

Personally i think you can wear makeup, earrings and nail varnish and be androgynous but as soon as you wear a bra you pass the line of androgyny and want to appear and feel as female .

[Gerrijerry]

I did make my statement above with a specific image in mind. There's no way that my words can apply to every different look out there. :)

, but my point is that if a CDer dresses this way and not "all the way" because he wants to avoid giving the impression he is feminine, he is fooling himself if he thinks that people won't think him feminine. Or gay.

He should just go all out and dress and enjoy himself. :)

Yes I agree, there is a point when it is simply better to dress fully as a woman. My wife felt the same way and that is why I am full time now. There is nothing wrong with wearing as much or as little femminine attire as you want. However you are only fooling yourself if you think others don't know. Also once fully dressed full time you can move on with life again and all the worry about being caught and the fear from that is gone.

[sissyjoe]

I think androgyny has become a vague term these days as gender-bending becomes more accepted. I wear slacks and a more conservative blouse with full lace underwear and mid heeled pumps (2 - 3.5 "), full make-up with pastel-pink lips and long matching nails as my daily wear (This includes jewellery). I'd like to think my look is androgynous...

[Sophie86]

The image I had in mind was, the every day, middle aged (40s +), guy out in middle America with perhaps a bit of a paunch, who goes to the grocery store, bank, and Lowes wearing a bra with perhaps a femmish looking blouse (or a hot pink polo shirt), earrings (not the guy stud type earrings), maybe a little mascara & lip gloss, has tweaked eyebrows with an arch and pink or purple toenails. This person will look as if he is trying to look feminine.

I agree that if the 'andro' half is completely buried, then it can't be androgynous. Nathan Lane in the Bird Cage: Not androgynous, femme. :)

(I'm not sure why the paunch matters, except that the more attractive the look is, the more likely we are to get away with it?)


In our culture there's a distinction between a male having long hair and wearing guy studs in his ears which is a genre that is not associated with crossdressing (in fact, many bikers have that look), and a male who wears nail polish and a bra or a blouse, femmish earrings, (and perhaps a little lip gloss).

Yes, there's a clear distinction between guys who wear long hair and earrings while still looking very manly, and guys who incorporate more femme into their look. But we can't call the former androgynous, can we, if it's all andro and no gyne?

There has to be elements of both sides present for it to stay in the androgynous realm. It's possible that the balance will vary from man to man, and will depend on his physical build, and how he carries himself.


There's nothing wrong with the latter, but my point is that if a CDer dresses this way and not "all the way" because he wants to avoid giving the impression he is feminine, he is fooling himself if he thinks that people won't think him feminine. Or gay.

If you mean feminine as opposed to MANLY (TM), then it's a dead cinch that an androgynous look will, by definition, compromise one's manly credentials. It's also certain that there are people out there who will assume that any man willing to tear up his man card must be gay.


He should just go all out and dress and enjoy himself. :)

Unless he specifically wants to sport an androgynous look. :)

[kimdl93]

Its always difficult to judge intent - some may adopt androgynous look for professional reasons (see Billie Jo Armstrong of Green Day), or they may like the look, or as in my case, its a way of expressing a degree of femininity in public without going full dress.

[Jamie001]

Yes I agree, there is a point when it is simply better to dress fully as a woman. My wife felt the same way and that is why I am full time now. There is nothing wrong with wearing as much or as little femminine attire as you want. However you are only fooling yourself if you think others don't know. Also once fully dressed full time you can move on with life again and all the worry about being caught and the fear from that is gone.

There are some of us that wear femme clothing and other items such as nail polish, shoes, etc that don't want to go all of the way. They are simply content in their expression as a feminine male, just as some women present in more of a masculine manner. I for one don't want to go all the way because I don't want to deceive people into thinking that I am a woman - it is just not my thing. Remember when guys first started to wearing earrings and all of the comments that were made about them being gay? It is the same with nail polish or any other item from women's fashion. The ironic thing is that I know some gay men and they would never wear nail polish or feminine clothing.

[Pythos]

At least to me the difference between androgyny, and going full fem in the case of male to female, for an androgynous look I personally leave off the forms, and do not tuck. That's pretty much it. Long hair, painted nails, all but two items of clothing, and so on ARE NOT INHERENTLY feminine. Just like pants are not inherently male. When I am in my fem androg mode there is very little mistaking I am male due to my completely flat chest, along with voice, and lack of true hips.

The thing is, to the unobservant I look feminine.

[ReineD]

Unless he specifically wants to sport an androgynous look. :)

Can you find a pic or a link, and post it here?

Just for fun, I googled "androgynous men". Admittedly the google machine also picks up images that are not in context. But, the vast majority of the people who can get away with the look are very young. Which makes sense, really. A younger male is not as fully masculinized as he will become as he ages. Also, I think that ultimately, for a guy to get away with it, he's got to have the right type of face: young, symmetrical, high cheekbones, no male jaw, no male protruding forehead, wide spaced eyes, thicker lips, etc. And even then, even though the label is "androgynous", many look as if there is not much "andro" to their "gynous". Also, these are face shots only. Add earrings and painted toenails, or perhaps a touch of makeup or a bra, etc, and the look will come across way more as if he is trying to look feminine, especially if the male is past the first flush of youth.

[Kate Simmons]

As usual, most of it is in the eye of the beholder it seems.:)

[Frédérique]

If one adds long hair and earrings plus having a shaved body, then I guess one has entered androgynous territory, but do painted nails push one all the way through into femme-land? Does it depend on the color? Does it depend on the setting? What are your thoughts?

Not necessarily. Surely you can get away with it, meaning express a certain androgyny, if you’re young and have other qualifying characteristics. If a boy is slight of build and affects an effeminate air, regardless of certain feminine hints, he could be accurately termed “androgynous.� I don’t really see painted nails as a declaration of femme intent, and I can think of several examples – the “setting� you refer to is definitely a variable, but I keep picturing an androgynous male with painted nails. Goth? Emo? He is fluttering near the boundary between androgyny and crossdressing, but I think anyone can be a distillation of both genders without going all the way towards MtF crossdressing. Some may see this visible effeminacy otherwise, but it can be largely self-supporting (and satisfying) and not cross the line into CD/TV territory…

[Ellen James]

Curiously enough, my first reaction is to recall that when I first discovered the word Androgynous it was more in connection with female celebrities and movie stars who appeared to be presenting as more masculine by wearing slacks and less feminine tops, etc. :confused: - it was only a little later that I learned that this actually worked both ways. :bonk: The late '60s and the '70s were like that :heehee:

It's actually still a look that I would like to but realize I cannot achieve :daydreaming: - though I still like the style of say Kate Hepburn and others. But there's definitely been a shifting, blurring, or even erasure of boundaries - at least in some localities - as noted, guys wearing earrings and long hair, etc.,etc., -

Though I expect that it will be a little bit longer before things get sufficiently open minded for CDs - I read the other day that full gender equality including civil marriage for gays will probably be acheived by about 2015.

[Jennifer in CO]

may I toss in another "definition"?
I always have felt that "Androgynous" meant "gender-less" or more precisely "without-gender". A person who was presenting as androgynous meant there was no defined gender presentation. To borrow the David Bowie line from Ziggy, "You can't tell if their a boy or a girl"...Pat from SNL...situations where there is NO gender ques being given from presentation. Fem clothes, makeup, certain earrings give off a fem presentation. If your presenting as a male in fem attire, you balance the presentation with facial hair or other masculine cues to tone down the female ques to "disguise" the fem attire and visa-versa for fem to male but in either case you are not Androgynous due to the clothing cues. To be truly Androgynous there can be no gender ques from any source

Jenn

[NicoleScott]

Androgyny is the mixing of gender presentations, rather than displaying no gender. That may be a subtle difference to some.
Just as there can be different levels of femininty displayed in males (and females, for that matter), and different levels of excitement for fetish dressers, so too there can be different levels of androgyny in individuals, not a strict definition based on clothes, makeup, earrings, mannerisms, etc.

[Sophie86]

Can you find a pic or a link, and post it here?

Well, there's Eddie Izzard. I don't suppose I need to post his pic. He describes himself as TV/TG, but his presentation onstage is androgynous. He wears the clothing and the makeup, but his mannerisms are more male with a dash of saucy wench. He is not slender, and he's a year older than me, yet, I think the look works for him.

Johnny Depp, who is only a few months younger than me, is another male who is able to affect an androgynous look when he wants to. With him it's mostly his physical appearance and his mannerisms. He doesn't need much in the way of externals, but any amount of bling or ambiguous clothing he employs really emphasizes it. He was 32 when he starred in Don Juan DeMarco, and 37 when he played Roux in Chocolat.

At 64, David Bowie is getting a bit old to manage the androgynous look, but he still tries (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S227FFNwl8). At 39, he played the part of a decidedly androgynous goblin king (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth_(film)).

You'll say that these are all performers, and that society lets them get away with more than it will the rest of us. That's true, but we travel in their wake and they expand the range of accepted behavior for the rest of us.

[DonniDarkness]

Im 32 years old i have been called mrs. or maam in drab. it just happens, it usually follows with an "oh im sorry ". I have long hair to the middle of my back and wear clothes that actually fit me.....aka no droopy pants or xxxxxl t-shirts
Im only around 148-150 lbs and 6ft tall. I have always been more femme than the other guys.

To me androgony is not about what gender you represent more or less of it is about where others view you on the scale of male or female gender association. It is not about style or how or where you groom, it is about how the world views gender ques as association clues. It also has alot to do with peoples personal attraction and judgement. Socially, people analyze everything......including where each other stand in terms of the gender chart.

[Barbara Dugan]

Well, there's Eddie Izzard. I don't suppose I need to post his pic. He describes himself as TV/TG, but his presentation onstage is androgynous. He wears the clothing and the makeup, but his mannerisms are more male with a dash of saucy wench. He is not slender, and he's a year older than me, yet, I think the look works for him.

Johnny Depp, who is only a few months younger than me, is another male who is able to affect an androgynous look when he wants to. With him it's mostly his physical appearance and his mannerisms. He doesn't need much in the way of externals, but any amount of bling or ambiguous clothing he employs really emphasizes it. He was 32 when he starred in Don Juan DeMarco, and 37 when he played Roux in Chocolat.

At 64, David Bowie is getting a bit old to manage the androgynous look, but he still tries (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S227FFNwl8). At 39, he played the part of a decidedly androgynous goblin king (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth_(film)).

You'll say that these are all performers, and that society lets them get away with more than it will the rest of us. That's true, but we travel in their wake and they expand the range of accepted behavior for the rest of us.

Very good examples Sophie....I would love to add some females that I would consider that may have an androgynous look...Ellen DeGeneres and Annie Lennox

[Sophie86]

Very good examples Sophie....I would love to add some females that I would consider that may have an androgynous look...Ellen DeGeneres and Annie Lennox

Joan Jett (http://youtu.be/Zy6-xAXMEBc)!! :lovestruck:

[Taylor186]

To me androgyny is much more than a mixture of gender presentations. To be androgynous one has to create ambiguity on the part of the viewer--"is that person a he or a she?" Donni sounds like she has it naturally, and I think some men can push it through clothing and mannerisms but for many men, including me, it can't be done. I was around in the 70s and believe me every mega rock group was loaded with long haired, golden ear-ringed men who were not the least bit androgynous. (Just Google 'The Eagles' or 'Led Zeppelin'.) To me Eddie Izzard, as much as I love his humor and presentation, is not an example of an androgynous person. I have never questioned or had to second guess whether he is a man or a woman no matter what he is wearing.

Oh, and while I think youthfulness helps, I do think that 62 year old Steven Tyler still pulls it off pretty well.

[tabithavalentine]

To me, androgynous means you at first glance you go "is that...huh?" Maybe that's just me though.

[MillaMarie]

Perhaps a better term for many of us that used to be thought of as "Androgenous" would be the more accurate term "Gender Queer" (GQ). Basically this is meant to describe a person who is Non-Conforming to the Gender Binary Concept of Western Culture. While people who are GQ may take hormones, they do not have Gender Identity Disorder (GID) & are Non-OP. GQ people are generally out 24/7, and often politically active. As for me - I have very long hair cut in femme' style with bangs, short well proportioned femme' physique (Plus 1X size), a soft & kind bearing, & gender neutral clothing. I don't care how people address me and never correct them, it's just not that important. People who identify as GQ comprise a rapidly expanding portion of the TG spectrum. I feel that social pressure to conform to the gender binary system can sometimes push people into the ends of the Bell Curve, that is, closeted crossdresser vs TS with GRS. I do NOT mean people with GID for whom surgery is clearly indicated, but rather borderline "advanced" crossdressers tired of the political struggle.
I strongly agree with the notion (Gandhi) "Be the change you wish to be in the world", by resisting the social construct known as Gender Binary and being out & about, more & more people will come to see that choice of clothing, decoration & hair styles mean little in prejudging a human being.

[busker]

I think that androgeny is a natural, and biological look that some men and women have and perhaps a style of dress that is imitated and then described and imitated yet again. The male model Pejic is a good example of male androgeny. As I recall he is 6'1" and though slim, in some of his male work he clearly has a beard shadow but in his female work clearly looks "naturally" feminine with the minimun of add-ons such as specific clothing of makeup. Just a face shot makes one wonder whether he is male or female.
Fahion (androgynous or otherwise) is what happens "AFTER someone discovers another person wearing something that is interestingly androgynous--several fashion houses lhas people who work the streets, so to speak, to see what creative individuals are weraing and then they copy it and make it haute couture. Fahoin has absolutely nothing to do with androgeny though.
I don't think unisex clothing has much to do with androgynous looks because it is after-the-fact, and adding makeup, pieces of clothing to an otherwise male appearance is not going to make anyone look androgynous. You have it, or you don't. Pretty boys got it, the rest of us don't. Tilda Swinton is a good example of a female who looks androgynous. Look at the movie Orlando, to see her in a good example of that. Even today, as an older woman, you can still see some of that depending on the angle of the camera. It is a natural, biological appearance.

[Jamie001]

Perhaps a better term for many of us that used to be thought of as "Androgenous" would be the more accurate term "Gender Queer" (GQ). Basically this is meant to describe a person who is Non-Conforming to the Gender Binary Concept of Western Culture. While people who are GQ may take hormones, they do not have Gender Identity Disorder (GID) & are Non-OP. GQ people are generally out 24/7, and often politically active. As for me - I have very long hair cut in femme' style with bangs, short well proportioned femme' physique (Plus 1X size), a soft & kind bearing, & gender neutral clothing. I don't care how people address me and never correct them, it's just not that important. People who identify as GQ comprise a rapidly expanding portion of the TG spectrum. I feel that social pressure to conform to the gender binary system can sometimes push people into the ends of the Bell Curve, that is, closeted crossdresser vs TS with GRS. I do NOT mean people with GID for whom surgery is clearly indicated, but rather borderline "advanced" crossdressers tired of the political struggle.
I strongly agree with the notion (Gandhi) "Be the change you wish to be in the world", by resisting the social construct known as Gender Binary and being out & about, more & more people will come to see that choice of clothing, decoration & hair styles mean little in prejudging a human being.

Well stated, thank you.

[Barbara Dugan]

Perhaps a better term for many of us that used to be thought of as "Androgenous" would be the more accurate term "Gender Queer" (GQ). Basically this is meant to describe a person who is Non-Conforming to the Gender Binary Concept of Western Culture. While people who are GQ may take hormones, they do not have Gender Identity Disorder (GID) & are Non-OP. GQ people are generally out 24/7, and often politically active. As for me - I have very long hair cut in femme' style with bangs, short well proportioned femme' physique (Plus 1X size), a soft & kind bearing, & gender neutral clothing. I don't care how people address me and never correct them, it's just not that important. People who identify as GQ comprise a rapidly expanding portion of the TG spectrum. I feel that social pressure to conform to the gender binary system can sometimes push people into the ends of the Bell Curve, that is, closeted crossdresser vs TS with GRS. I do NOT mean people with GID for whom surgery is clearly indicated, but rather borderline "advanced" crossdressers tired of the political struggle.
I strongly agree with the notion (Gandhi) "Be the change you wish to be in the world", by resisting the social construct known as Gender Binary and being out & about, more & more people will come to see that choice of clothing, decoration & hair styles mean little in prejudging a human being.

I totally love the GQ concept too...but the Queer word will scare more than one on this forum:thumbsup:

[busker]

[QUOTE=MillaMarie;2483251]Perhaps a better term for many of us that used to be thought of as "Androgenous" would be the more accurate term "Gender Queer" (GQ). Basically this is meant to describe a person who is Non-Conforming to the Gender Binary Concept of Western Culture.

Aren't you confusing the psychological place on the gender spectrum with a person physically appearing female at one moment and male at another moment in time? That is androgeny. It is where the VIEWER cannot tell the difference just by seeing. We need other clues about the person (speech, manners, clothing (maybe), genitals likely. It would be mighty difficult so see a "head case" on the street and say that that person is androgynous. That would be mind reading and a miracle at the least.

[MillaMarie]

I'm totally confused by Buskers concern for the "external viewer" & how it applies to the issue of Gender Queer vs Andogyne, a dumb blonde moment maybe. After reading her post and rereading it, I'm still flipping my hair and thinking "What??"

It's silly to split hairs since to an "outside observer" there is just no way for them to discern betweem an Androgyne/GQ person. Personally I could care less about the outside observer anyway, for me to be an authentic human I have to be true to myself, family, friends, & loved co-workers only.

Let us be specific though - the term genderqueer and androgyne(or androgenous) are neither equivalent nor interchangable. Genderqueer is not specific to androgynes, does not denote gender identity, and may refer to any person, cisgender or transgender, whose behavior falls outside western gender binary conventions. Furthermore, genderqueer, by virtue of it's linkage with queer culture carries sociopolitical implications that androgyne does not. For these reasons it is understandable that some androgynes may find the label of GQ to be offensive or inaccurate.

From a Psychological viewpont both GQ/Androgynes are often more flexible and mentally healthy than more highly differentiated masculine/feminine persons. The effective full integration of the male/female personality provides many of these individuals with a powerful source of ego integration and allows them to command a broad spectrum of emotional response & fluidity. Some of the best human adaptations occure in the artistic, academic, & health professions.
Sorry for the lecture, I know the point is only academic anyway. It's been a long road for me with many bumps to finally discover who I really am. I'm incredibly grateful for where my journey has led me, I would have NEVER dreamed that I could be so happy & emotionally satisfied, so lucky to have so many people I really love & love me in return.

From the Velveteen Rabbit - "Love is what makes you real....."

[Sophie86]

I apologize in advance for being an anal retentive nitpicker, but the correct spelling is androgynous (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/androgynous) with a 'y'. Androgenous (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/androgenous) with an 'e' means "pertaining to the production of or tending to produce male offspring." :)

[LaurenB]

How about Steven Tyler as a perfect role model of Androgynous? He crosses whatever gender boundary he likes and still comes off as a man who loves and reveres women.
LB

[DonniDarkness]

I agree Lauren...

I saw an interview with him a while back hosted by henry rollins and even in his late years he still pulls off femme guy poet very well. (and i love his pants!)

It led me to this thought on perspective about gender androgyny:

Using Steven as an example

We all know he is a man but he does not define what is taught to be overtly masculine. By this i mean we see him as an attractive man but he seeps feminine traits physically when you see him. He is the kind of person that wouldnt surprise you by having a nurturing personality.

I just thought this was a really good example because it has an exact opposite contrast (Henry Rollins) sitting right across the room from him.

Its a great interview. And perhaps exactly how i view male androgyny, being a femme guy i associate with Steven Tyler...even tho he is from a different generation than i am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFTzV-exqUA (part one)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f-p3_f9zq4&feature=related (part two)

-Donni-

[ReineD]

How about Steven Tyler as a perfect role model of Androgynous? He crosses whatever gender boundary he likes and still comes off as a man who loves and reveres women.
LB

Naaah ... he looks too much like a guy! Or at least, he has been perceived as a guy for way too long for most people to not know whether he is male or female. :)

To Taylor, I agree that most people can't pull off androgyny effectively. Mostly the young and beautiful, I'm afraid. Others just don't have the facial structure for it. In real life the men will come off looking like feminine men, and the women, like masculine women. I also think older people, past the age of 70-75, can pull it off. Women lose estrogen, men lose testosterone, and the only way you can tell many older folks' gender is by what they wear (no offence intended to our older crowd ... we'll all get there eventually). :p

To MillaMarie, thanks for pointing out the possibility of being Genderqueer (a combination of gender value) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer). I agree, it is not the same as being Androgyne (no gender value) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyne#Androgyne).

[abigailf]

may I toss in another "definition"?
I always have felt that "Androgynous" meant "gender-less" or more precisely "without-gender". A person who was presenting as androgynous meant there was no defined gender presentation. To borrow the David Bowie line from Ziggy, "You can't tell if their a boy or a girl"...
Jenn

Everybody has their own definition, but Jenn has it right.

Many dictionaries define it as having both male and female characteristics and this is what I thought until I was corrected. It is actually understood by psychologists as being gender featureless.

For humans, an androgyne (pronounced /ˈændrədʒaɪn/, AN-drə-JYNE) in terms of gender identity, is a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical masculine and feminine gender roles of their society. They may also use the term ambigender to describe themselves. Many androgynes identify as being mentally "between" woman and man, or as entirely genderless. They may identify as non-gendered, genderneutral, agendered, between genders, intergendered, pangender or gender fluid.

Someone of one sex that presents some characteristics of another sex is called gender queer, or gender bending as someone else mentioned.

But I say, go with what you like best.

[Sophie86]

To Taylor, I agree that most people can't pull off androgyny effectively. Mostly the young and beautiful, I'm afraid. Others just don't have the facial structure for it. In real life the men will come off looking like feminine men, and the women, like masculine women.

I guess we'll just agree, then, that the look I aspire to doesn't meet your definition of androgynous. It's either too masculine or too feminine. :)

[ReineD]

Lol. As I mentioned earlier, it's hard to define without pictures. Even then, your perception of androgynous might not be the same as mine. :)

I consider someone androgynous when I cannot tell whether they are male or female. Very few people can pull this off. I still say that unless a man moves among the young, beautiful, and avant-garde, if he wears feminine earrings and paints his nails pink (not goth black), or wears a bra, lip gloss, etc, he will be seen as trying to look feminine, or people will think him gay, especially if he looks older than 25-30. Or, as MillaMarie suggests, some people might peg him as genderqueer, but they'd need to be aware of such things, like members of the GLBT community or perhaps the younger, more in-tune people.

Most people just aren't sophisticated enough about gender variance to see it for what it is. But if it isn't important how others perceive you, then you should present as you please!

Also, do you live in an urban area, and do you move among young, hip, people? If so, this entire discussion is moot! :)

[Sophie86]

Also, do you live in an urban area, and do you move among young, hip, people? If so, this entire discussion is moot! :)

Our town has three stop lights. :p

We're not far from a university town, though, so if I go a little north it's all cool. Any place in the South is going to have its share of rednecks and fundamentalists, but I'm to the point where I don't care to worry about them anymore. On Wednesday, I went out to Walmart sporting my pink nails. I pulled up at the gas pumps first, and there was a guy ahead of me who had his pants down below his butt with his boxers on display. It made me realize that in the grand scale of things, I am really not that weird. :)

[MillaMarie]

You're so so right Sophie, one of the few redeeming qualities about the South is that you are either ;
a) a "Bubba" - Camouflage too tight T-shirt with matching baseball cap & sunglasses parked on the brim.
b) a "Girl" - Any human outside the prior standard for real men, particularly if well groomed, clean, and hair longer than collar length

The low educational level, narrow world view, religious zealotry and inbreeding of the large part of southern males does not allow for any more subtle discernment. This makes it so much easier to "pass" in this part of the world......

Feel safe saying this since I was a Southern boy, or more precisely these days, Southern Belle. (Just waiting for the fashion return of hoop skirts....... sigh)

Thanks so for the correction in spelling of Androgynous, somewhere there's a Catholic Nun rolling in her grave & searching for that 18" aluminum , cork backed ruler. I can almost feel the pain in my left hand now.....

[Sophie86]

You're so so right Sophie, one of the few redeeming qualities about the South is that you are either ;
a) a "Bubba" - Camouflage too tight T-shirt with matching baseball cap & sunglasses parked on the brim.
b) a "Girl" - Any human outside the prior standard for real men, particularly if well groomed, clean, and hair longer than collar length


I don't know about the hair length. I've known some serious rednecks who wore their hair down to their shoulders. It's not as popular a look now as it used to be, but it's still out there. The thing about rednecks--I mean, the real trailer-trash style redneck--is that they're the dregs of society and they kinda know it. They can actually be very accepting of people who are on the fringe, as long those people talk like them and don't act stuck up. A tgirl with the southern belle thing going on might run into some problems, but a true redneck gurl in Walmart couture with tattoos all over her could probably get on just fine. :)

[tabithavalentine]

How about Steven Tyler as a perfect role model of Androgynous? He crosses whatever gender boundary he likes and still comes off as a man who loves and reveres women.
LB

I was and still am a huge Aerosmith fan. I wonder if that has anything to do with why I'm here...

[Elena Ornamental]

When you can't tell whether a person is male or female, that's Androgyny. Lots of elements involved here: items of clothes, face shape, body shape, attitude. There are numerous things that signal gender in our culture. When enough is observed that the signal isn't clear, whatever it is, that's Androgyny.

[Taylor186]

It is actually understood by psychologists as being gender featureless.

Not all psychologists think that:

The Bem Sex Role Inventory
The Bem Sex Role Inventory is one of the most widely used gender measures and was constructed by the early leading proponent of androgyny, Sandra Bem (1977). Based on their responses to the items in the Bem Sex-Role Inventory, individuals are classified as having one of four gender-role orientations: masculine, feminine, androgynous, or undifferentiated.

The androgynous individual is simply a female or male who has a high degree of both feminine (expressive) and masculine (instrumental) traits. A feminine individual is high on feminine (expressive) traits and low on masculine (instrumental) traits. A masculine individual is high on instrumental traits and low on expressive traits. An undifferentiated person is low on both feminine and masculine traits.

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyny#Gender_identity

[abigailf]

Taylor, Is that you as your avatar? I love the top.


Not all psychologists think that:

True, not all, but the ones I have been to.



The Bem Sex Role Inventory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyny#Gender_identity
Isn't it amazing how a single entry of a term can contain opposing definitions. Hence, lending credence to this thread.

[Pythos]

So....masculine is a lack of expression, and high on instrumental (which is?) traits.

Really? So I guess my highly expressive Italian neighbor of years ago who was so far from feminine, was I guess really feminine? (He was like the Sterotypical Italian male, when he spoke he also emphasized his words with hand motions.)

[Sophie86]

"Gender featureless" sounds so bland, yet I think of androgynous people as being very dynamic and attractive.

[Taylor186]

Hi Abigail, yes that is me. Thanks.

I like these threads too. They can be frustrating at times but they tend to push me to expand my thinking on a topic.

I found this graphic when trying to learn more about the Bem Inventory. It presents three models: Bipolar, Orthogonal and Oblique. I'm sure you can find psychologists lining up behind each, and probably other models too. Obviously Bem is a proponent of Oblique.

.

http://i.acdn.us/image/A2692/26921/470_26921.jpg

[sfwarbonnet]

There is a word for "gender featureless" - it's "unisex" e.g. the skant (a.k.a. dress) worn by both males and females in the first episode of Star Trek TNG and probably intended to make the statement that in the future gender won't matter. However they must have gotter lots of mail about men wearing dresses as they quickly changed to a unisex pantsuit.

[Brenn]

At least to me the difference between androgyny, and going full fem in the case of male to female, for an androgynous look I personally leave off the forms, and do not tuck. That's pretty much it. Long hair, painted nails, all but two items of clothing, and so on ARE NOT INHERENTLY feminine. Just like pants are not inherently male. When I am in my fem androg mode there is very little mistaking I am male due to my completely flat chest, along with voice, and lack of true hips.

The thing is, to the unobservant I look feminine.

I think it is hard to define "androgynous" because it could be different things depending on the person and what features are stronger than others. Pythos makes a good point in that the "unobservant" might find him feminine. Androgyny is something i know when I see, because I may have to do a double-take to determine the true gender.

[sfwarbonnet]

What is acceptable male attire is greatly dependent on venue. In the mainstream, a male wearing nail polish, makeup, non-stud earrings, a bra, sheer pantyhose, a dress (or skirt), and/or high heels would be percieved as effeminate and wouldn't blend-in so they might as well go all-the-way unless they are trying to extend the boundary of what is accepted for guys.

[StarrOfDelite]

whenever i think of androgynous the first image that occurs to my mind's eye is jay davidson as the evil alien Ra in the original 'stargate' movie, although he is more famous for the role of Dil in 'the crying game.'

[AnnaCalliope]

At least to me the difference between androgyny, and going full fem in the case of male to female, for an androgynous look I personally leave off the forms, and do not tuck. That's pretty much it. Long hair, painted nails, all but two items of clothing, and so on ARE NOT INHERENTLY feminine. Just like pants are not inherently male. When I am in my fem androg mode there is very little mistaking I am male due to my completely flat chest, along with voice, and lack of true hips.

The thing is, to the unobservant I look feminine.

I strive for a similar look when not out en femme. I've started wearing black or dark green polish on my finger and toe-nails. Skinny or flared bottom jeans, a tight t-shirt under a pink hoodie and leather slides or pink flip-flops. I'll wear a bra without forms and my padded girdle underneath. With my hair down and my reading glasses, I've gotten a few looks.

The best reaction I got recently was when I was at the Portland Airport to catch a flight back to Atlanta. Since it was so cold out that morning, I wore pink fuzzy toe socks with my sandals. As I was exiting the men's restroom, I almost bumped into a couple male travelers, who upon seeing me got a look of confusion, stepped back to make sure it was in fact the Men's Room they were entering, blinked a couple times, shook their heads and continued onward.

I'll post a pic of my andro-look in the next day or two.

[Geneva Lake]

My androgyny is not based on "presenting" as M or F. I think that's the key. I'm presenting as me, no matter that color my nails are and how cute my shoes are. And they are cute.