Milestone...first real date with a guy...

[Zenith]

I've met and had drinks/dinners with a few people from OKCupid with limited success. But Wed I had a real date. It was so nice to be...normal. The issue of trans never came up. Drinks, dinner, a movie in a suite at the theatre, coffee. It was so nice to walk around downtown at night with his arm around my waist or holding hands. Got a lovely hand massage and some arm caressing during the movie, and a goodnight kiss. He's a cute guy with a great sense of humor and works in film, we talked and laughed all night. He may or may not be the one, I must find a way to tell him before we become intimate. I dread that. But for now I made a real connection.

On a similar note...I've grown so much on this site. A few years ago I was even to embarrassed to even pick up a copy of "TransAmerica". Now the time is nearing for me to leave the nest...

[GirlyBits]

I am squealing for you on the inside right now! That sounds amazing! I hope you get more!

[Leanne2]

Zenith,
Wow, it sounds like you two had a great time. Isn't it great to be treated as the woman that you are. Good luck with your second date. By the way, what outfit did you wear and how did you do your hair and makeup? Leanne

[Traci Elizabeth]

You surely deserve all the love a man can give. Congrats! He may or may not be the one but either way have fun and enjoy the moment!

BTW, do you feel compelled to tell him?

[pamela_a]

That's wonderful Julie. I'm so happy for you. Enjoy the ride as long as you can.

I'd like to follow on Traci's question. You're post op and just like any other woman. Aside from the "honesty" answer, what do you believe telling him will accomplish?

[RebeccaLynne]

It was so nice to be...normal. The issue of trans never came up.

So you didn't tell him you're not what you appear to be?


He's a cute guy with a great sense of humor and works in film, we talked and laughed all night. He may or may not be the one, I must find a way to tell him before we become intimate. I dread that. But for now I made a real connection.

So you've deceived him. And you feel you've "connected"? I beg to differ. Send him a text, e-mail, or call him. He deserves to know the truth before seeing you again. He showed you a good time; reciprocate honestly.

[Zenith]

So you didn't tell him you're not what you appear to be?



So you've deceived him. And you feel you've "connected"? I beg to differ. Send him a text, e-mail, or call him. He deserves to know the truth before seeing you again. He showed you a good time; reciprocate honestly.

Hun I'm a post-op. I "appear to be" a woman and I have a vagina. It's really no one's business until intimacy comes up, and some believe not even then. I'm a woman and a defect was fixed.

[Stephenie S]

I don't agree that you need to tell at this early stage. You will have to at some point, of course, but on the first date? I don't think so.

Before sexual relations? Probably a good idea. But until then? Just have fun.

S

[Shelly Preston]

Sorry Julie. you may be post op but you were always a woman

I am delighted you are getting out and taking the path that is right for you

It seems you have made a great start to the latest chapter in your life

Good luck looking for mr right :D

[Frances]

So you've deceived him. And you feel you've "connected"? I beg to differ. Send him a text, e-mail, or call him. He deserves to know the truth before seeing you again. He showed you a good time; reciprocate honestly.

Wow! That is amazingly transphobic! So, if a trans woman does not divulge her secret right away she is seen as deceiving, but, on the other hand, if she announces it right away she will be seen as pretending to be a woman. It is a no win situation either way. What is the point of telling? So that the guy can back out from a perceived gay relationship? Dating and relationships are tricky no matter how interesting the past may be for either person. Why would a connection not be real? what if the guy went to prison and has not told Julie yet? Will he have deceived her?

As a trans woman who lives stealth and enjoys all the cis-privileges of a regular woman, I can assure you that dating men is quite complex. Telling or not, and at what time is not cut and dried. Some never do.

[Michelle I]

Julie:

You are a woman. You always have been a woman. Like you said you only had to have surgery to correct a birth defect.

[Sharon]

So you didn't tell him you're not what you appear to be?

She IS what she appears to be!


So you've deceived him. And you feel you've "connected"? I beg to differ. Send him a text, e-mail, or call him. He deserves to know the truth before seeing you again. He showed you a good time; reciprocate honestly.

Deception? No, not at all because Zenith is a female!. If the relationship builds to a point where it's time to divulge those secrets meant to only be known by a select few then it is her decision when and how to tell him.

By the way, I'm truly happy you had such a nice time, Julie! :)

[Lorileah]

Now the time is nearing for me to leave the nest...


NO!!!!!!! We would miss our favorite squirrel! But we know that time will come.

So happy for you, you are an inspiration. Sounds like you have him enthralled. :hugs:

[Aprilrain]

Wow, I feel all giddy for you! you go girl! I have to agree with the others that Julie IS a woman and it's up to her to decide when if ever she wants to divulge such information.
I find it frustrating that If I pass I am "deceiving" people but if I don't then I'm some poor pathetic man in a dress. The fact is people see what they want to see It is YOU not ME that determines my gender in YOUR head.

[Melody Moore]

Hun I'm a post-op. I "appear to be" a woman and I have a vagina. It's really no one's business until intimacy comes up, and some believe not even then. I'm a woman and a defect was fixed.
Zenith I agree totally & I see your point, its your prerogative if & when you choose to tell him. My only concern for you right
now is that I hope you don't invest too much of yourself emotionally, especially at these early stages or you might end up hurt
again. But hopefully you are a lot wiser now after your previous disappointments. I think when the time comes to tell him that
you need to explain to him that you were born with a gender defect & gender identity disorder. because I think this way it can
be understood & accepted a lot better. But still I wouldn't tell him anything either at these early stages. I don't think its even
necessary to tell him if you are dating & having sex. Maybe only tell him if the relationship was getting really serious where he
wants to get married & have kids.
Goodluck & I hope it all keeps going well. :hugs:

[Miranda09]

I'm really happy for you Zenith. It couldn't happen to a nicer person. I wouldn't worry about telling him anything until you are sure he's the one to be trusted. Have fun and be safe, and don't forget us here. :)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'm glad you had fun Julie

Good luck!

This point about deception is a very sad thing about being TS.....in the end, there is probably a time that you will have to say to a person that your past is different.. and it's not that it's simply different, it's different in such a way that someone you care about may actually be disgusted by you, or that they may feel lied too and/or hurt...ugh!..in rare cases you may find that you become a victim of violence!!!!!
it's just a sad thing.... for me, i just try my best to forget about it...and i don't really date, and this is probably why...

[Jorja]

I am so happy for you Julie.
Be sure to read chapter 5 of the operating instructions before you use it the first time ;). I agree with Miranda, there is no need to say anything until you are sure he is the one.

[Felicity71]

So you didn't tell him you're not what you appear to be?



So you've deceived him. And you feel you've "connected"? I beg to differ. Send him a text, e-mail, or call him. He deserves to know the truth before seeing you again. He showed you a good time; reciprocate honestly.

What a slimey comment. She has every right to be who she is now. She is what she is - woman. She may want to tell him her past in the future, but her present status is purely woman.

[Michelle.M]

So you've deceived him. And you feel you've "connected"? I beg to differ.

You should be ashamed of yourself for making such a cruel remark.

[RebeccaLynne]

Hun I'm a post-op. I "appear to be" a woman and I have a vagina. It's really no one's business until intimacy comes up, and some believe not even then. I'm a woman and a defect was fixed.

Partially. You've been surgically transformed into what "appears to be a woman". Yet you possess neither ovaries nor a uterus, making you unable to bear children. So do you wait to tell him until he expresses the desire to raise a family?


Wow! That is amazingly transphobic! So, if a trans woman does not divulge her secret right away she is seen as deceiving, but, on the other hand, if she announces it right away she will be seen as pretending to be a woman. It is a no win situation either way. What is the point of telling? So that the guy can back out from a perceived gay relationship? Dating and relationships are tricky no matter how interesting the past may be for either person. Why would a connection not be real? what if the guy went to prison and has not told Julie yet? Will he have deceived her?

I'm certainly not transphobic. I'm a realist. The point of telling is honesty. If he'd been to prison, it wouldn't preclude him from fathering children. So your point is irrelevant.


As a trans woman who lives stealth and enjoys all the cis-privileges of a regular woman, I can assure you that dating men is quite complex. Telling or not, and at what time is not cut and dried. Some never do.

I'm sure it is. So what do you tell him when he tells you he wants children?


She IS what she appears to be!

Nope.


Deception? No, not at all because Zenith is a female!.

In her outward appearance, and in her own mind; but not physically. She cannot bear children.


If the relationship builds to a point where it's time to divulge those secrets meant to only be known by a select few then it is her decision when and how to tell him.

The sooner, the better. That's my point.


What a slimey comment. She has every right to be who she is now. She is what she is - woman. She may want to tell him her past in the future, but her present status is purely woman.

I disagree. Read my above responses as to my point of view. If you have a qualifying argument to the contrary, by all means elaborate on your position.

Otherwise, shut up.

[ReineD]

Julie, congratulations! I'm so happy for you! :)

I'm sure you'll know when it is the right the to tell. :hugs:

So. I've gotta ask. Who paid for dinner? Believe it or not, I'm dumbfounded by this. I'm in a relationship now and it's comfortable, we take turns. But, the days are long gone when it is taken for granted that a man should pay. Yet there must be some guys out there who would feel insulted should the girl offer to pay on the first date. So how did you navigate this? Was it awkward?

[Felicity71]

Partially. You've been surgically transformed into what "appears to be a woman". Yet you possess neither ovaries nor a uterus, making you unable to bear children. So do you wait to tell him until he expresses the desire to raise a family?

I'm certainly not transphobic. I'm a realist. The point of telling is honesty. If he'd been to prison, it wouldn't preclude him from fathering children. So your point is irrelevant.

I'm sure it is. So what do you tell him when he tells you he wants children?

In her outward appearance, and in her own mind; but not physically. She cannot bear children.

I disagree. Read my above responses as to my point of view. If you have a qualifying argument to the contrary, by all means elaborate on your position.

Otherwise, shut up.

If thats your argument that due to her not being in possession of ovaries and uterous, that makes her deceptive? By your definition, a huge number of GG women who lack reproductive parts due to birth defects only appear to be women?? They do not need to prove their status anything other than women. Neither does Zenith.

Anyway the ability to reproduce in this point in time maybe hindered, but that will change in the next 100 years, unless society collapses from an unforeseen disaster.

[RebeccaLynne]

So you've deceived him. And you feel you've "connected"? I beg to differ.


You should be ashamed of yourself for making such a cruel remark.

Ashamed? Ridiculous! I tell it like it is, and have every right to. Nothing cruel in my evaluation of, and conclusions drawn from, the original post.

I'm really annoyed by the sanctimonious "you go, girl" attitude espoused by many here; in your heart and minds, you may be women, but biologically, you're not ... so accept reality.

[Rianna Humble]

You've been surgically transformed into what "appears to be a woman". Yet you possess neither ovaries nor a uterus, making you unable to bear children. So do you wait to tell him until he expresses the desire to raise a family?

I take it from that statement that you consider any infdertile woman to only "appear to be a woman", and what about someone who has had to have a hysterectomy. Again by your definition, se is not a woman. Get real.


I'm certainly not transphobic. I'm a realist.

The common cry of most of your fellow haters.


The point of telling is honesty. If he'd been to prison, it wouldn't preclude him from fathering children. So your point is irrelevant.

Does this mean that if he was unable to far=ther children you would not consider him to be a man? I think you need to get some professional help to flush this bigotry out of your system.


I'm sure it is. So what do you tell him when he tells you he wants children?

All that she needs to tell him is that in common with about 1 in seven other women she is unable to have children.


Read my above responses as to my point of view. If you have a qualifying argument to the contrary, by all means elaborate on your position. Otherwise, shut up.

Your above responses show your point of view very clearly. You consider that anyone who cannot procreate is not a man or not a woman. As to whether our arguments "qualify" - luckily it is not the bigots who get to decide this.

[Zenith]

Julie, congratulations! I'm so happy for you! :)

I'm sure you'll know when it is the right the to tell. :hugs:

So. I've gotta ask. Who paid for dinner? Believe it or not, I'm dumbfounded by this. I'm in a relationship now and it's comfortable, we take turns. But, the days are long gone when it is taken for granted that a man should pay. Yet there must be some guys out there who would feel insulted should the girl offer to pay on the first date. So how did you navigate this? Was it awkward?

Hi Reine. This was simple. I didn't make it to the ATM and was running late. Actually most guys like to pay...makes it a date in their mind. But I'll step up if need be. And I do plan to treat him to a nice lunch soon. :D


Ashamed? Ridiculous! I tell it like it is, and have every right to. Nothing cruel in my evaluation of, and conclusions drawn from, the original post.

I'm really annoyed by the sanctimonious "you go, girl" attitude espoused by many here; in your heart and minds, you may be women, but biologically, you're not ... so accept reality.

Miss Rebecca, you are quite the hater here. You don't know everything thing about me and certainly don't know my biology. What if I was intersex? What if I was XXY? What if I had strong female features before transition? You show a lack of even basic understanding of a classic Harry Benjamin transsexual. Using one of my analogies, according to you all amputees should be denied lifelike limbs so they aren't running around "deceiving" people.

Yes I DID connect with him as a friend and maybe someday as a lover...

And saying that you have a right to tell it like you see it while telling another member to literally shut up is some serious hypocrisy...

Thanks to everyone for the support in trying to explain things, I was rather stunned at this unprovoked attack.

[erika130]

Julie, you go, Girl ! (:heehee:)
It must be interesting to have come this far & look way back when you started, even on this site, & how far things might have seemed at the time. To me, it's hard to imagine you ever had doubts, since you really are woman. I'm so happy to hear that you get to be you on such an important level :)
enjoy girl!

[Areyan]

Dammit, RebeccaLynne - Zenith IS a woman. does she really need to spell out her life in trannyland for this guy? really, i understand the activism but it's not needed in this case. please try to respect some folks might like to live stealth and it's none of our business whether it's a wise choice or not.

i am personally very happy for you, Zenith. i hope it works out great and i wish you much luck with this man if you decide to tell him your story.

[Shelly Preston]

Rebecca
I guess if you not anatomically and biologically perfect then you will never be a woman judging by what you have said

Have you any idea how many women you just offended just because they cant have children.

Julie IS an attractive woman who has every right to go out and find the right partner for her

[Rianna Humble]

So you didn't tell him you're not what you appear to be?



So you've deceived him. And you feel you've "connected"? I beg to differ. Send him a text, e-mail, or call him. He deserves to know the truth before seeing you again. He showed you a good time; reciprocate honestly.

That is rich from a CD who doesn't believe he should tell a woman that he is a CD on the first date (see Rebecca's comments in this thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?29273-Started-Dating!-When-To-Disclose-Help!&highlight=)) and who hid his cross-dressing from his girlfriend for 6 months (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?69704-Told-My-Girlfriend-About-My-Crossdressing&highlight=)

There's a name for that.

[Michelle.M]

You've been surgically transformed into what "appears to be a woman". Yet you possess neither ovaries nor a uterus, making you unable to bear children.

So then, using this logic any woman who has had a hysterectomy is now a man and is deceiving anyone who thinks otherwise?

That you express your opinion articulately does not hide your ignorance, prejudice and hate. This merely puts your cissexism in a pretty package.

You say that you tell it like it is?

We do too. You are transphobic.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

That is rich from a CD who doesn't believe he should tell a woman that he is a CD on the first date (see Rebecca's comments in this thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?29273-Started-Dating!-When-To-Disclose-Help!&highlight=)) and who hid his cross-dressing from his girlfriend for 6 months (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?69704-Told-My-Girlfriend-About-My-Crossdressing&highlight=)

There's a name for that.

!!! LOL... sounds like a little self loathing on top of the transphobic hate..i know this feeling well, i was taught the same things as everybody else

anyway
it's a first date for crying out loud..

Rebecca you really do need to take a step back...

the only thing real about your comments is that it's a sad fact that our partners may care about our pasts...
but the problem is just that...the problem is how cisgendered people are socialized to feel about us..and the totally unneccessary and hurtful transphobia that is deeply ingrained in our culture...and it hurts us as transsexuals..that's the real part
there is absolutely nothing wrong with any person being true to themselves, trying to live their own best life and building relationships off that..that's hopefully what we all do..

..and yes we are piling on, you deserve it..

[Aprilrain]

Partially. You've been surgically transformed into what "appears to be a woman". Yet you possess neither ovaries nor a uterus, making you unable to bear children. So do you wait to tell him until he expresses the desire to raise a family?



I'm certainly not transphobic. I'm a realist. The point of telling is honesty. If he'd been to prison, it wouldn't preclude him from fathering children. So your point is irrelevant.



I'm sure it is. So what do you tell him when he tells you he wants children?



Nope.



In her outward appearance, and in her own mind; but not physically. She cannot bear children.



The sooner, the better. That's my point.



I disagree. Read my above responses as to my point of view. If you have a qualifying argument to the contrary, by all means elaborate on your position.

Otherwise, shut up.

Your statements aren't transphobic, I doubt that you suffer from an abnormal fear of transgendered people, instead I would argue that your statements are cis-sexist. You grant all of the "rights and privileges" assumed by females to natal women without reserve yet you make rather scathing remarks to Julie simple because you know she is TS.
Your arguments assume that a woman is a woman only if she can bear children, flawed logic which in and of its self is rather sexist. Though I doubt you meant to, you inadvertently excluded all natal woman who cannot or choose not to bear children from womanhood. Let's be real, we both know that that is NOT what you were implying. What you WERE implying is that trans-women are not real women and should be wearing scarlet letters, so to speak, so poor unsuspecting men won't be duped into a "gay" relationship by a "fake girl"
I don't know what your personal gender identity is, mine is female not male and not something in between. I have some physical challenges that I wish to overcome for my own personal satisfaction and quality of life but this doesn't change my gender

Wow! I just read the post that Rianna posted a link to. Rebecca your signature says "feminist in training" you, my dear, have a LOT of training left to do.
Now are my arguments "qualifying" enough or shall I "shut up" you can PM me if you like, bye now!

[PretzelGirl]

Back to the main subject, I am really happy for you Julie. Each step is only a matter of time and I am glad that this "first date" went so wonderfully for you. For anything that needs to be said, you will know when the time is right. I feel it is part of a relationship growing in that you get a feel for the right moments for everything that needs or is destined to happen. In the meantime, enjoy the development of a relationship.

Now if you should choose to leave our little group, it will be sad. You have always been a lovely lady and a completely caring and supportive person here. But the time comes for everyone to move on. If you do go, you will in no small way be missed.

[RebeccaLynne]

I take it from that statement that you consider any infdertile woman to only "appear to be a woman", and what about someone who has had to have a hysterectomy. Again by your definition, se is not a woman. Get real.

Then your take is wrong. As are your inferences regarding my position on the issue, which has to do only with honesty and openness.


The common cry of most of your fellow haters.


I think you need to get some professional help to flush this bigotry out of your system.


luckily it is not the bigots who get to decide this.

More name-calling. The last resort of those unable to construct a reasoned argument.

Rianna, I'd like to reference the last line in your signature:

"Thou canst not then be false to any"

So which is it? Honesty or obfuscation?

[Amy Lynn3]

Zenith, this is just my way to try and help you. You stated you were meeting people from OKCupid. I am on that site too and may I offer you another free dating site name. It is Plenty Of Fish. I am on it too and have found it to be better for meeting people than OKC.

[Rianna Humble]

Then your take is wrong. As are your inferences regarding my position on the issue, which has to do only with honesty and openness. ?

Mere hypocrisy on your part. You set the standard that to be a woman someone needs to have all the right organs and be able to bear children. In setting that benchmark you exclude every infertile woman and everyone who has had a hysterectomy from womanhood.


More name-calling. The last resort of those unable to construct a reasoned argument.

I am not calling you names - to use your own words I'm just telling it like it is.

I am stating that your posts reveal you to be a bigot as well as a hypocrite. You don't get to decide whose posts here are valid and you certainly don't have the right to tell anyone to shut up. You seriously need professional help to get rid of this attitude.



Rianna, I'd like to reference the last line in your signature:

"Thou canst not then be false to any"

So which is it? Honesty or obfuscation?

The OP has not been dishonest. In fact she has done no more and no less than you yourself declared in a thread that you originated to be the standard and which I have referenced so that others can see your double standards.

You, on the other hand, are manifestly not being true to yourself since you advocate not telling someone about cross-dressing on the first date then castigate a woman for not telling her medical history on the first date.

I don't have to call you names, you define yourself more precisely with every post.

[Sophora]

Zenith, this is just my way to try and help you. You stated you were meeting people from OKCupid. I am on that site too and may I offer you another free dating site name. It is Plenty Of Fish. I am on it too and have found it to be better for meeting people than OKC.

I am wondering about dating sites now. I have an okcupid account now. I am wondering since I am starting to trans should I list my gender as female or continue to list it as male. I know that I will have to put something in my bio about being transgender but I am wanting to know what I should list as my gender.


Then your take is wrong. As are your inferences regarding my position on the issue, which has to do only with honesty and openness.

I guess my take is wrong as well then. I took as the same way. I may not be in appearance of a female yet but I feel more female than I do male. If you are saying that to be female I need to be able to have kids then why are any of us on here talking about this. the OP, a lot of the girls on here, and I would not be able to say we are female(I know I am just starting but damn it I am a girl too), and there would be no need for transistion as it wouldn't exist. it is very narrow minded thing to say and just doesn't fit in the world view. I also wonder if you gotten the view from South Park as Mr. Garrison said the exact same thing.

Zenith, I am so sorry for the derailment of your thread. I am happy that you are finding someone now. I hope you continue to be happy. You don't have to tell him until you are ready, although if it is getting serious I probably would.

[Veronica_Jean]

Julie,

I am so thrilled you have had this experience!! I know you will know when the time is right, if ever.

Don't worry about the rest, as you are the only one must be happy with your choices. That is the beauty of being whole.



Rebecca,

You seem to have numerous narrow definitions, whcih to apply to yourself is up to you, but to apply them to others is not your place.

As for honesty and openness, is everyone truly honest and open with everyone else? Do we not all... trans or not... choose who to share what details of our lives and under what circumstances? It is not wrong to keep these things to ourselves based on the circumstances. As my lawyer once told me "Am I under oath?"

I find your explainations of what defines a woman to be quite lacking, but you are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to disagree.

Veronica

[ReineD]

Then your take is wrong. As are your inferences regarding my position on the issue, which has to do only with honesty and openness.

RebeccaLynne, I don't think anyone is disputing your point about Julie disclosing her past to the prospective bf, should the thought of marriage and children appear on the horizon, least of all Julie. In her OP, Julie clearly stated her need for honesty and openness. She intends to tell him even before they potentially become intimate.

What you fail to understand is the difficulty transpersons face, in overcoming general society's bias against them; difficulties which are in large part present due to simple ignorance and beliefs in stereotypes. This is not only true for transwomen; it also applies to transmen and even CDers who seek relationships with GGs.

The best way to overcome such ill-considered and undiscerning bias is to first establish a friendship with someone so that inner qualities will outshine any preconceived ideas, whatever these may be. This holds true for any other matter that may be present in someone's past. Someone above mentioned having been incarcerated. I'll add having mental illness in the family, having had a child out of wedlock, having overcome alcoholism ... or any other challenge that many people face. Do we need to disclose all on the first date? Surely the answer in a resounding no, else only the people who have histories that fit within the perfect "ideal" would ever make it past the stage of getting to know and starting to care about one another.

Julie is choosing to establish a relationship with someone else, human to human, with a focus on essential inner qualities which ultimately is a much stronger indicator as to whether or not a relationship will be successful, than someone's past. If a birth GG should get into a relationship with a man knowing she can never have kids, will she be blamed for not telling him on the first date? No. Is it presumptuous of her to assume on the first date that their relationship is headed for marriage and children? Yes. If things develop, they can always make the decision to adopt. Or, if it is a deal breaker, then the prospective groom can decide to move on. I don't see this scenario as being much different than Julie's.

[SherriePall]

I was only going to wish Julie the best in the future, but now I must add something to the direction this post has taken. The sticking point seems to be the fact that Julie can't bear children. Doesn't matter that she may love children and want children in the future. The apparent point is that she can't have children on her own.
Forgive me in advance, but there are many GG's out there who can not bear children for whatever reason. Some may know ahead of time that they can't, but do they spill the beans on the first date? How about those women who can have children, but do not want any. Many for selfish reasons such as ruining a career or a fabulous figure. Should they tell on the first date? When should they tell? Do they ever tell?

Julie, I wish you the best and all the happiness in the world. Take care, dear.

[Michelle.M]

This is just so sad. Zenith wanted to celebrate something nice happening in her life and RebeccaLynne went and threadjacked the topic by making all those ignorant statements and generally just crapping on something sweet that we all wanted to enjoy.

RebeccaLynne, I know it's a stretch but is there any way at all that you could 1. stick to the topic and 2. just act like a decent human being?

Just asking.

[Barbara Dugan]

Getting back to the original purpose of this thread...I am very happy for Zenith and I am crossing all of my available fingers that he is the one:)

[LisaM]

Julie,
I am very happy for you. I hope.....you find happiness. I believe you will.

[Laurie Ann]

Julie I am very happy for you my heart skipped a beat reading your description. I hope this all works out the way you hope enjoy what may be developing. All my hopes for you happiness.

[Maddie22]

I'm really happy for you Julie!!! Finding a date is hard enough, finding someone to keep dating is even harder, so I hope things work out for the best for you!!!

[AKAMichelle]

We all knew that you would. I hope the experience is everything that you have hoped for.

[TerryTerri]

Zenith,
I wish all the happiness in the world finds you! I also hope that you do NOT leave our site soon. You are such an inspiration to me and many others here. Your overcome challenges and successes have truely helped me and I'm sure others as well. I hope (and believe) that others here helped you much as you have helped others.
I won't begrudge you if or when you leave. But, I hope you linger around here long after you 'need' us. For your presence benefits this site greatly and you are a solid piece of why this site is so helpful to so many of us. If you have to leave us someday, I will wish you all the best. But, I personally don't want to see you go until you must leave us.
I have no significant comment to make on the topic of 'disclosure' other than I think your conscience will guide you to the right time and way and what regarding all this. Trust your conscience, I don't think it will steer you wrong on this. That's my opinion and I do not to wish to comment on what others have said, or not said.

BTW, although many girls in the past transitioned and were able to go into deep stealth (Lynn Conway is a prime example), I think that possibility no longer reasonably or practically exists due to the internet, Google, etc. I know you already experienced stuff with that (why you went back to using Zenith instead of your common name on the site). So, I think it enevitable in this day and age a potential partner discovers parts of our past we may wish we could hide from.

[Rianna Humble]

I've grown so much on this site. A few years ago I was even to embarrassed to even pick up a copy of "TransAmerica". Now the time is nearing for me to leave the nest...

As you have grown, you have also helped and encouraged a great many people on the way. If you decide that it is time for you to leave, we will definitely miss you, but it is your choice and you must do what is right for you. Please be assured that whatever your decision, you will always be welcome amongst us.

[CharleneT]

Wow, what a wonderful story ! You surely deserve this and much better ;) As for the hullabooloo about when to tell, only you can know the right moment - if ever. I told my current beau on our second date, but I didn't know till a few minutes before I did that it was what I was going to do ...

:bighug2:

[Melody Moore]

Excuse me for a moment Julie, but something needs to be said here...

RebeccaLynne

I have stayed out of this until now but I to join in the chorus of other people here who say you don't have a clue
about what defines 'GENDER IDENTITY' or transsexualism. From the other comments made here its obvious you are
a CDer who has little understanding about transsexual issues & appear very ignorant, while you also seem to have
quite a few ill-conceived beliefs about what defines our gender identity & sexual identity & how we are developed.

The first thing you need to realise is that every single male on this planet started out in the womb as a female!
Did you know that this is why all men have nipples? Did you also know that a penis is developed from a clitoris?

No? :daydreaming:

Some facts: it is only through the action of testosterone that we are developed in the male direction. During foetal
development while we are in our mother's womb there could be fluctuations in the sex hormones that are being passed
to us by the placenta & umbilical cord. Our genitalia is defined about 8 weeks into pregnancy & some other parts of the
body, including the brain & our functions such as gender identity & sexual orientations are developed much later. Now
remember that everything about us is 'female' in the beginning & some of us might have bodies that appear males, but
other parts of our physiological biological anatomy & functions stayed female! I can back all of this up with more links
to more reports if you want to doubt what I am saying here, but here is one example: http://shb-info.org/sexbrain.html

And before even being approved for GRS, you go through a whole heap of interviews & assessments to identify
your true gender identity through your gender markers which are identified by medical staff such as Doctors,
Psychiatrists & Psychologist, all people much more qualified than you or I when it comes to making these calls.
But the reality is your opinion doesn't really matter anyway, Zenith already has what she needs in her life.

There are also a number of us here who were born intersex and have both male & female chromosomes & physiological features.
So dammed if I would just stand there & let you call me a 'man' & try to embarrass me & get away with it. I recall this happening
one day when I was in a thrift store & a CDer accused me in public of being a 'man', in the end it was him who put himself in a
very awkward situation & was told by staff to leave the store while everyone laughed at him. How stupid & very hypocritical? :lol:

[Kathryn Martin]

I've met and had drinks/dinners with a few people from OKCupid with limited success. But Wed I had a real date. It was so nice to be...normal. The issue of trans never came up. Drinks, dinner, a movie in a suite at the theatre, coffee. It was so nice to walk around downtown at night with his arm around my waist or holding hands. Got a lovely hand massage and some arm caressing during the movie, and a goodnight kiss. He's a cute guy with a great sense of humor and works in film, we talked and laughed all night. He may or may not be the one, I must find a way to tell him before we become intimate. I dread that. But for now I made a real connection.

On a similar note...I've grown so much on this site. A few years ago I was even to embarrassed to even pick up a copy of "TransAmerica". Now the time is nearing for me to leave the nest...

Zenith, that is truly wonderful.

The only question I have is why you intend to disclose your medical history at all. It's like writing a letter before you go on a date disclosing that you can't have children or something. I know this may be an unpopular view, but really until the relationship moves to a point of permanency that one might want to speak about medical conditions of any sort. This issue of "honesty" is and the dictum "thou shalt be honest" which really means you are not worthy is such a stupid thing. In my view the fallacy of this is revealed when your sexual orientation is lesbian. All of a sudden all relevance of such disclosure vanishes because being "fertile" is not considered a pre-requisite. Don't pay any mind to this crock of idiocy, enjoy dating and when you feel you want to disclose whatever you feel is right then you will know and act according to your own conscience.

Your description of the lovely date made all tingley and happy for you.

[Kaz]

Julie,

I am so so happy for you. We haven't connected much but I have followed posts and this is just such a wonderful "next step"! I bet you are quite giddy from the experience?

This thread has gone a different way from that which the vast majority would have thought, but it has highlighted the narrow-mindedness of some people and their inability to understand the concept of taking personal responsibility in how we live our lives.

To Rebecca Lynne... honesty is not about telling everybody what your version of the truth is... true honesty is understanding the consequences of our actions and acting appropriately. You do not know enough about Julie to make those value judgements, and I will rigorously defend the right of everyone to navigate their lives with integrity, probity and inner truth.

Julie you have been and are still on a difficult journey. I would urge you not to leave the community. You have many friends and "followers" here who are generally interested in how you make it through the next phase and beyond.

God Bless

[Jay Cee]

Zenith, I am very happy for you. Whether he is the one or not... right now, that is irrelevant. Heck, don't even give it much consideration - just enjoy your time together.

As far as this "real woman" issue is concerned: I can't imagine any woman (genetic or trans) actually saying anything about child carrying capabilities on a first date. I could , however, imagine the frightened look on the guy's face if he was told on a first date that she was capable of carrying children. :eek:

Whoever you end up settling down with, Zenith, will probably need to be told. It won't be easy to do, but best that it come from you, instead of a third party somewhere down the line.

P.S. -Maybe before a relationship becomes serious, you could have a roundabout conversation with the guy re: transexuals? Kind of like "I had a friend who dated a TS, and didn't even know it...." or however you might put it. It might be a way to get a inkling as to how he might take the news.

[Frances]

As far as this "real woman" issue is concerned: I can't imagine any woman (genetic or trans) actually saying anything about child carrying capabilities on a first date. I could , however, imagine the frightened look on the guy's face if he was told on a first date that she was capable of carrying children. :eek:

Awesome! Most guys would run for it.

[Michelle.M]

Awesome! Most guys would run for it.

LOL reminds me of that part in the movie Baby Mama where Tina Fey's character dumps all that out in the first half of the date and ends up getting ditched at the restaurant.

[PortiaHoney]

Congratulations Julie on achieving what some of us aspire to.

It seems a few of the respondents here only lend you more reason to leave this site behind. I wish you all the best for your future life.

The vast majority support you darling.

Take care and good luck. Huggs

[Frances]

It seems a few of the respondents here only lend you more reason to leave this site behind.

I am pretty sure it is just one.

[RebeccaLynne]

RebeccaLynne, I don't think anyone is disputing your point about Julie disclosing her past to the prospective bf, should the thought of marriage and children appear on the horizon, least of all Julie.

Thank you, Reine, for accurately discerning my concerns regarding a possible long-term relationship in Julie's future. I wish her all the happiness life has to offer.


In her OP, Julie clearly stated her need for honesty and openness. She intends to tell him even before they potentially become intimate.

Well, that's better than I managed to. I'd highly recommend she do so. I waited too long to disclose my CD'ing to my GF; and to this day, she brings it up as a "trump card" in arguments, claiming I "deceived her". That is why I suggested a "sooner rather than later" approach. I've learned the hard way. Enduring it to this day, with no perceptible end in sight. My cross to bear.


What you fail to understand is the difficulty transpersons face, in overcoming general society's bias against them; difficulties which are in large part present due to simple ignorance and beliefs in stereotypes. This is not only true for transwomen; it also applies to transmen and even CDers who seek relationships with GGs.

You're entirely correct; we all face the condemnation of violating the "norms" of which society is so vehement in defending.


The best way to overcome such ill-considered and undiscerning bias is to first establish a friendship with someone so that inner qualities will outshine any preconceived ideas, whatever these may be.

Precisely why I waited. Should've "come clean" prior to intimacy, though. My mistake. Not my first, and I'm sure, not my last. Everyday is a learning experience.


Do we need to disclose all on the first date? Surely the answer in a resounding no, else only the people who have histories that fit within the perfect "ideal" would ever make it past the stage of getting to know and starting to care about one another.

I agree. Timing is extremely important, and needs to be adjusted to fit the individual circumstances.


Julie is choosing to establish a relationship with someone else, human to human, with a focus on essential inner qualities which ultimately is a much stronger indicator as to whether or not a relationship will be successful, than someone's past. If a birth GG should get into a relationship with a man knowing she can never have kids, will she be blamed for not telling him on the first date? No. Is it presumptuous of her to assume on the first date that their relationship is headed for marriage and children? Yes. If things develop, they can always make the decision to adopt. Or, if it is a deal breaker, then the prospective groom can decide to move on. I don't see this scenario as being much different than Julie's.

Once again, I'd like to thank you for your input. And your calm, reasoned responses are always a stabilizing influence in the sometimes rancourous dialogues that inevitably transpire here... keeps it interesting!

To all who've participated in this thread, I appreciate your viewpoints and comments... no offense intended on my part, and no animosity held toward those with whom I disagree...

However, I will certainly consider carefully any responses I may have to future threads in this particular section of the site... I'm not here to make enemies.

[Jennifer Marie P.]

Thats great Julie being treated like a woman and hope both of you enjoy the moments.

[linda allen]

Tough crowd!

Yes, Julie is a woman. Now. She is listed as a woman on her drivers licens, SS card, employement, everything. And she has the physical attributes of a woman. She is entitled to live her life as a woman from now on.

Yet she has a past. Not everybody needs to know about her past. Not everybody is entitled to know about her past. Yet, it exists.

If Julie ever enters into a serious relationship with a male (or anyone), she will need to tell him about her past. One, he deserves to know. Two, she will not be able to keep it from him forever. There will be family to meet, old childhood photos, the male name on the birth certificate and diplomas, etc.

Finding out that his girlfriend used to be a man will be pretty shocking for the unsuspecting guy. Tell him too soon and it may turn him off. Wait too long and it will be a matter of a broken trust.

Julie will have to feel this out and decide when and if to tell him. I don't think she's obligated to for a casual relationship, but she should let him know before things get serious. I also think it's an "in person" event, not something that should be e-mailed.

I'm not trying to bring Julie down, it's great that she's had the experience. I'm just trying to be realistic.

[Laurie Ann]

Julie any further date updates how!s it going?

[Zenith]

Julie any further date updates how!s it going?

I really should thank everyone for their kind replies and consideration. Fourth date coming up, my profile page has a pic of me shopping a bit during date number 3. We definitely like each other... ;) Being asked what high school I went to (was an all boys) or about previous boyfriends is getting awkward. I still have no idea how to breach the subject...

[AllieSF]

Julie,

First congratulations on this new experience. It will truly be a learning one, so enjoy it as much as possible. If this one doesn't work out, you will have too many more opportunities in the future. You are attractive, a professional, mature and a very pleasant squirrel (as long as you stay out of my bird feeder!). So, treating this new relationship as a training ground, I would follow your inner feelings and reveal when you think it is necessary. Since you are at that magic number of dates when intimacy starts to become the next phase, I think you know what you have to do. One way to start that conversation could be to find a way to talk about diversity in all shapes and forms and guage his level of acceptance versus tolerance. That may give you some key insights on how he may react. If it goes well with that approach you can then segue into the more important matter at hand. You could ask him how much he really likes you for who you are and then revisit the previous conversation about high schools and why your answer to him then was a little difficult for you to answer completely. You could continue on how you have matured and "changed" since those youthful days and then start to explain your personal maturing and changing process.

As to outcomes from this conversation, I personally would expect the worst and hope for the best. That way you are prepared for the negative reaction and lessen the hurt, and it will hurt. I know the feeling. Make sure you have that conversation in a safe area with no innocent bystanders. A place where your own car is close by just in case he walks out.

As I said, knowing you as I have learned to know you on this site, you will do fine and have many more opportunities to develop a relationship process that will work for you. Now, if you lived closer ......

[Aprilrain]

Being asked what high school I went to (was an all boys) or about previous boyfriends is getting awkward. I still have no idea how to breach the subject...

Yeah just thinking about this sort of thing scares the shit out of me! What did you say! I once read about someone who was deep stealth, she went on a date with a guy who had caught a ride on a submarine while he was in the navy. She had to listen to him go on and on about his brief experience when she had been a submariner for like 15 years at a time when there weren't any female submariners!

[Michelle.M]

Yeah just thinking about this sort of thing scares the shit out of me! What did you say! I once read about someone who was deep stealth, she went on a date with a guy who had caught a ride on a submarine while he was in the navy. She had to listen to him go on and on about his brief experience when she had been a submariner for like 15 years at a time when there weren't any female submariners!

You know, I was thinking the same thing. I'm a combat veteran, both Navy and Army, and I have operated in dozens of countries and nearly been killed 4 times. I figure it's only a matter of time before someone thrills me with his own tales of derring-do. Guess I'd better practice my expression of wide-eyed admiration! :)

[MarieTS]

Julie-- you are a woman, and owe no one your history. If/when the subject of a family surfaces you simple mention that for medical reasons you can't have children.

[pamela_a]

I really should thank everyone for their kind replies and consideration. Fourth date coming up, my profile page has a pic of me shopping a bit during date number 3. We definitely like each other... ;) Being asked what high school I went to (was an all boys) or about previous boyfriends is getting awkward. I still have no idea how to breach the subject...
You can answer without graphic descriptions. It sounds like you went to a private school and at this age does it really matter about high school? Did you date in school? In a relationship with someone or not. I would think general overviews from that time of your life should suffice unless he want's to verify your resume.

[Aprilrain]

I could see that getting a bit sticky, Pamala, I mean obviously zenith doesn't want to say she went to an all boys school without being ready to tell this guy about her past but I think if she seems too cagey it's going to make him start to wonder if she is hiding something. I would think it was weird if I asked someone a simple question like where did you go to school and they kept evading the question. In my home town everybody knows all the different schools if they're from here so if you went to an all boys school you would have to lie or just not answer the question you could say a private school because that docent answer the question so the next question would be which one.

[7sisters]

Hey Julie! Enjoy it all. Trust your intuition about when to tell. I'm so excited for you.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Hey Julie! Enjoy it all. Trust your intuition about when to tell. I'm so excited for you.

This is literally nothing else you can do about it.

Only you can possibly get a feel for how he will react and at some point you will choose to tell him, or you will break up instead of telling him.....

until then, this hangs over whatever intimacy you are enjoying...pam i think your advice works only for casual relationships...

I'm starting to realize that "stealth living" brings its own set of challlenges and that emotionally its very challenging in a way i did not anticipate.

[Veronica_Jean]

I really should thank everyone for their kind replies and consideration. Fourth date coming up, my profile page has a pic of me shopping a bit during date number 3. We definitely like each other... ;) Being asked what high school I went to (was an all boys) or about previous boyfriends is getting awkward. I still have no idea how to breach the subject...

Julie,

I have not been in this situation and being older it is less of a concern to me. I do think that there is a lot to be said for being all of what makes you who you are. For me that includes all of my history, not just the recent parts. Of course, the pricetag for this can be very high, especially if he cannot see that you are a beatuiful woman with everything any other woman has to offer. I know you experienced this pain before and the best I have to offer is to find the right time to choose if you want this to move forward and take the risk of telling him at least some part of all this. The future may easily involve family, old friends, etc. etc. where the risk of this surfacing is high and not telling or him not being able to realize that is your past can and will becoem a problem.

Everyone has issues in their past, even if they dont' want to admit that. The best part of an intimate couple is sharing all of one another and letting the differences be allowed as part of the relationship. My boss at work was a single divorced mother at a time when that was considered a huge issue! Imagine being afraid to tell a bopyfriend you are divorced and have children. Today, we think of this as not an issue, but 30 years ago, this was huge!

If it is meant to be, it will work out. You are on date 4 and counting..... Remember that your inner turmiol will surface and be detected and possibly interpreted as something else. That in itself can damage the relationship more than knowing the source of the issue and dealing with it, moving closer, or moving apart.

I wish you well and hope this guy is "the one" !

Veronica

[pamela_a]

I could see that getting a bit sticky, Pamala, I mean obviously zenith doesn't want to say she went to an all boys school without being ready to tell this guy about her past but I think if she seems too cagey it's going to make him start to wonder if she is hiding something. I would think it was weird if I asked someone a simple question like where did you go to school and they kept evading the question. In my home town everybody knows all the different schools if they're from here so if you went to an all boys school you would have to lie or just not answer the question you could say a private school because that docent answer the question so the next question would be which one.

I agree to a point April. IF the person if they grew up in the same town/area and knew all of the schools, etc then yes, that could be an issue. I don't believe there will ever be a single perfect answer to any of these questions and each one needs to be evaluated and addressed on an individual basis.
IMO often questions like this need to be answered the in the same way one would answer their young child, with enough information to satisfy the present curiosity without getting too in depth.
Each person's experiences and comfort levels vary. Use your intuition to determine what needs to be said and how. I have often answered questions making statements that are true and accurate yet in such a manner that it allows the person to make their own assumptions. As an example I was at a Dr. appt. for a partially avulsed finger nail. When it got to the point he had to just pull it off he warned me about how much it would hurt. I told him don't worry I have 2 children (a true statement) and could handle pain (also a true statement based on a previous medical issue I had). Both true statements although unrelated yet he drew the conclusion I was talking about the pain of childbirth. Did I lie to him? No, both statements were the truth. Did he draw a logical conclusion connecting the two? He was talking to a woman so he connected the 2 statements into 1 instance.

I believe too often we start out overloading other people talking about ourselves. Granted in a dating situation the dynamic is different and should, at some point, lead to greater detail. Unfortunately I can only hope when I'm faced with that necessity I'll be able to determine it based on our comfort level together and where the relationship appears to be headed.

[AKAMichelle]

I really should thank everyone for their kind replies and consideration. Fourth date coming up, my profile page has a pic of me shopping a bit during date number 3. We definitely like each other... ;) Being asked what high school I went to (was an all boys) or about previous boyfriends is getting awkward. I still have no idea how to breach the subject...

I didn't see a picture of him with you so I can't even comment about him except to say how happy I am for you that you are really putting everything together. You are a very beautiful lady. Even one that I would have been very proud to have on my arms when i was younger. Keep us posted.

[ReineD]

While catching up in this thread and reading about the submarine stories I suddenly gained a powerful realization: if I had been born a genetic male and had had SRS, I would be a much stronger and freer woman than I am. :) I would believe myself to be capable of doing so many more things than I think myself capable of doing now. The possibilities are astounding and I can't help but feel that I would be so much more confident in my ability to thrive in realms that I was socialized to believe are only accessible to men.

So Julie, please consider this: because of your past experience, you do have enviable inner qualities and strengths that few genetic women possess, and this might be precisely why this guy is attracted to you. We point out the same thing but in reverse to GGs when they first come here after learning of their husband's trans status, wherever it may be. The softer inner qualities the husbands posess are the very things that attracted the GGs to begin with.

So ... maybe your bf will be more open to what you have to tell him than you think. Men are attracted to confident, capable, and accomplished women (just as women are attracted to sensitive men). :)

I love Allies suggestions for broaching the subject and I would only add one thing. Consider not telling him during a hot and heavy moment when sexual intimacy is imminent, but rather during a more neutral time.

I hope with all my heart that he will be OK with the news. :hugs:

[linda allen]

Julie,

If you lie about your past, it's going to come back and bite you later on. Same for trying to evade issues. If this is a short term, casual relationship, you owe him nothing. If there's any chance of love developing, you have to tell him soon. If you don't tell him, or if he finds out some other way, the relationship will never recover.

Also, I don't know if you have had "relations" as a female yet, but it might be a lot easier if your "first time" was with someone who knows about your situation and cares about you.

[Frances]

If Julie ever enters into a serious relationship with a male (or anyone), she will need to tell him about her past. One, he deserves to know. Two, she will not be able to keep it from him forever. There will be family to meet, old childhood photos, the male name on the birth certificate and diplomas, etc.

Finding out that his girlfriend used to be a man will be pretty shocking for the unsuspecting guy. Tell him too soon and it may turn him off. Wait too long and it will be a matter of a broken trust.


If you lie about your past, it's going to come back and bite you later on. Same for trying to evade issues. If this is a short term, casual relationship, you owe him nothing. If there's any chance of love developing, you have to tell him soon. If you don't tell him, or if he finds out some other way, the relationship will never recover

There is so much projection and false assumptions in these posts. Not everyone has family to meet. I do not for one. Also, names are changed on birth certificates and can be changed on diplomas (at a cost); I do not know why someone would ask for a diploma however. Some people do not keep childhood photos.

The problem with these posts and Rebacca's is the projection of fears and psychological diplacement. The boyfriend does not deserve to know, and he may not find it shocking. You would. You are projecting your own feelings on Julie's love interest(s). And so was Rebecca. It would be nice for someone, once, to say something like: "if I were the lover, I would like to know" instead of telling us how to behave in relationships because of our trans past. Your posts seem transphobic to me.

Are you trans yourself? Do you know a lot of trans people? I know a trans woman who told her husband after ten years of marriage. He did not walk out on her. My girlfriend has never told any of her male lovers she was trans since SRS, and does not need to. What is your personal experience on this matter?

Dating is not easy for trans women whether they are attracted to men or women. Trans-trans couples are not rare for this reason, but telling or not, and how, belongs to the trans person.

[Laurie Ann]

WOW such long winded discourse on a subject which is no body's business. Julie is a beautiful intelligent woman who knows how to handle her relationships by herself. We should all be supporting her and hoping she enjoys what she has going for as long as it lasts.

[Melody Moore]

Why should I tell anyone that I once lived as a male when the truth is that I was always a female, but for many
years I was in denial & living a lie? The truth is what you see before you now - so why even bother talking about
what was essentially the biggest lie of my life?

[Jill Devine]

Rebecca! If being able to carry a baby is the #1 measure of being a real women then you are basically saying many GGs are not real women because infertility is a problem for millions of GGs worldwide. And then how soon should a barren woman "come clean" with a new love interest? Should she inform every new guy on the first date that she's infertile and not a full woman?

Jeepers. This forum is meant to support and for edifying. But your tone is rather harsh.

[linda allen]

There is so much projection and false assumptions in these posts. Not everyone has family to meet. I do not for one. Also, names are changed on birth certificates and can be changed on diplomas (at a cost); I do not know why someone would ask for a diploma however. Some people do not keep childhood photos.

The problem with these posts and Rebacca's is the projection of fears and psychological diplacement. The boyfriend does not deserve to know, and he may not find it shocking. You would. You are projecting your own feelings on Julie's love interest(s). And so was Rebecca. It would be nice for someone, once, to say something like: "if I were the lover, I would like to know" instead of telling us how to behave in relationships because of our trans past. Your posts seem transphobic to me.

Are you trans yourself? Do you know a lot of trans people? I know a trans woman who told her husband after ten years of marriage. He did not walk out on her. My girlfriend has never told any of her male lovers she was trans since SRS, and does not need to. What is your personal experience on this matter?

Dating is not easy for trans women whether they are attracted to men or women. Trans-trans couples are not rare for this reason, but telling or not, and how, belongs to the trans person.

Not transphobic, realistic. We don't agree. That's fine. Julie should consider everything and make her own decision.

[Michelle.M]

Not transphobic, realistic. We don't agree. That's fine. Julie should consider everything and make her own decision.

No, it's not realistic. What is realistic to you is an imposed burden on someone else. When one decides to live full time as a woman, when one does (or chooses not to) undergo HRT or SRS that person assumes all the risks, responsibilities, benefits, rights, challenges and choices that go along with her decision. And that decision along with all those other things are hers, not anyone else's. Nobody gets to dictate as to how she should live her life. For anyone to preach about what is "right", especially when they have not undertaken those same challenges, is (as Frances points out) a projection of that person's own fears and psychological displacement.

That projection of fear is the basis of what we'd call transphobic.

To dictate the standards of gender-oriented conduct for a trans person is transmysoginistic.

Whatever terminology we use does not mask the point that someone is willing to saddle Julie (and by extension, the rest of us) with a burden that nobody should have to bear.

[Frances]

My girlfriend wants to respond, but her membership has not been approved yet. Here is her take on this matter.


Not transphobic, realistic. We don't agree. That's fine. Julie should consider everything and make her own decision.

It's all too easy to get away with hateful or wrong statements by adding you're being "realistic". I used to have a friend who'd go on and on about "the damn black guys who steal our women" and when I'd call him a racist, he'd reply just that: "I'm not a racist, I'm being realistic". I'm sorry but there are cases where a statement is just unacceptable. If we were all "realistic" like that, nothing would ever change in our society.

Being transsexual myself (post-op), I think the matter of disclosure is a highly personal one. Whether you choose to tell or not to tell, the most important thing is that you feel confident about yourself and your choice, and not do it under pressure from anyone (and if you do tell, PLEASE make it safe, i.e. a public place or whatever).

One thing's for sure, not telling upfront doesn't equal lying. As a person you have a right to choose the proper time for such an announcement. As a pre-op I had dates with several men and I always chose to wait for as long as possible before telling, just like any other personal information. With the right attitude ("There's something I have to tell you, I'm sorry I waited but now I know I can trust you with this") men generally answer rather favorably in my experience. Hey, all guys aren't that bad ;)

Zenith, I have no right telling you to do this or that (no one does). I will however say I'm very happy for you. A first date is an amazing moment. I hope you make the most of it and I'm sure you'll make the right decision for yourself.

Juliette

[ReineD]

To Frances' girlfriend and everyone else who feels similarly, I have a question. Please understand I am not placing judgment on anyone when I ask this but rather, I'm trying to make sense of conflicting ways to handle what appears to be similar situations.

In the CDing and Loved Ones sections, people generally advise CDers to tell prospective partners about the CDing sooner rather than later and further, if a CDer posts that he doesn't plan on telling his wife at all most people will talk at length over the mistake in not telling. The GG SOs seem to be almost universally upset over having been told years into their relationships, and even more so if they discover the CDing through their partner's oversight. There hasn't been much discussion over how friends or adult children feel about also not being told until much later so it's impossible to say if most would be upset or not.

So, if a wife or girlfriend becomes angry over not initially being told about something that her partner does, how would the partner of a TS, or his or her friends, feel about not initially being told about gender or sexual reassignment? (I don't know which is the preferred term, GRS or SRS).

Again, I'm not bringing this up to argue the case either way. I just don't know how to look at it and I'm interested in reading your thoughts.

[Michelle.M]

Being pre-op I will defer to those who are farther along in their journey than I am, but IMHO the issue is not the same. If one has to actually tell an SO they are a CD then it may be because (a) they are at that moment presenting as male and at some point they will be en femme, and at that time they feel that their SO will think this bears explanation or (b) they are presenting as female and when the dress comes off they will probably be asked for an explanation as to why there are boy parts underneath the dress.

In other words, in whatever mode they present they are not generally presenting full time, and I could see where the CD herself would feel compelled to offer some disclosure. And for the SO, if she sees that she is dating a man she may be surprised to see he has a feminine aspect to his character that she had not bargained for. This, as well as society's difficulty with gender variance, may cause a problem. But with a trans woman what you see is what you get (remember, we're talking about post-op here), and there is no changing presentations between boy mode and girl mode.

Having had SRS means that she lives as a woman, all the time and that it all looks like it should, all the time. That's the whole point of SRS - to align body image and soul image to ease gender dissonance. Having to explain something that would only be generally discovered by a gynecologist sort of defeats the purpose of being able to live your life as your true gender. If you have to constantly explain that which is gone and in the past then how are you to live your life fully?

Put this in natal woman terms. What woman would tolerate being told she MUST divulge things about her past that have no bearing on her important relationships? If she quit smoking, flunked college, had a bad relationship with someone, a failed business, overcame drug addiction - all in the past, let's move forward. She may choose to discuss it if she believes that the relationship will be helped by the information, but if not then why burden someone else with something that's been overcome? And either way, that is her choice, not anyone else's.

The theme we keep coming back to is the presence or absence of primary sex characteristics. The secondary ones (bodily changes brought on by hormones) are no different than those of natal women. The tertiary ones (wardrobe and grooming) are also equal to that of natal women. There is absolutely no difference!

So the sticking point seems to be the primary sex characteristics (natural vagina and reproductive system). If a natal woman was meeting someone who wanted to start a family her hysterectomy would be an issue, unless the man was willing to adopt children. But that would be something discussed if the relationship got serious, not at the outset. And does a woman (natal or trans) really need to say anything more than "I can't have children. How do you feel about adoption?"

To state that a woman (natal or trans) is being dishonest by not discussing things like that early on, or until (or unless) it was necessary - or even at all - is simply narrow-minded, arrogant and cruel, and the criteria that's been used in this thread to justify that viewpoint have been transphobic and cissesxist.

[Frances]

Juliette wished to answer the question. I hope her membership is accepted soon, as these postings will not go on her record.

Hi Reine,

Thanks for your question. Very interesting.

In my opinion these situations are not similar.

Transsexuality is essential to the person's identity, deep down. I don't know the first thing about crossdressing, but in my understanding it is only one aspect of the life of an otherwise healthy and well balanced person. To put it simply, take out the crossdressing, and you still know the person. Take out the transsexuality, you aren't left with much of her.

That being said...

I would venture to say that there are two stages in transsexuality, especially from a relationship standpoint. If the person hasn't started transition, and is contemplating a new relationship, I would agree that talking about her (his) gender dysphoria up front would make sense. Transsexuality is in her present and future.

But if you've transitioned already, as is Zenith's case, then transsexuality is, up to a certain point, in your past. Therefore it falls in the same category as all the other troublesome experiences that have forged the person you are today, but that you may not want to disclose on a first date.

In my case, I could say I'm a transsexual, I'm a victim of child abuse (when I was 4), -- on a lighter note, I grew up in one of the richest parts of my hometown, we had a cottage up north, and obviously there's so much more I could say. What am I obligated to disclose on a first date? What's the proper balance between saying too much and too little? Personally I have various levels of "privacy" and I need to build confidence (and reciprocation) before I dig in too deep.

Not disclosing, for a transsexual, is sometimes a matter of security -- but certainly in my opinion it is not something to be shared lightly to anyone.

Juliette

[ReineD]

Oh, I'm all in favor of not disclosing anything on the first date, even for CDers. Anyone would want to have a chance for at least friendship bonds to form, in order to make it easier to dispel the notion of stereotypes down the road. There's just way too much misinformation out there that is still believed by most people to be factual, to handle this any other way.

I suppose the question is rather when to tell ... third date? Three months? As has been mentioned above by several people, this has to be an individual decision based on individual circumstances and how quickly the relationships develop from the mere acquaintance stage.

Maybe I misread some of the people I thought were suggesting that it is not necessary to tell, ever, and this is why I asked my question.

[Frances]

Maybe I misread some of the people I thought were suggesting that it is not necessary to tell, ever, and this is why I asked my question.

You did not misread my posts. I don't think it is necessary. Aleshia Brevard, for one, did not tell two of her three husbands.

[ReineD]

Who's Alishia Brevard?




Put this in natal woman terms. What woman would tolerate being told she MUST divulge things about her past that have no bearing on her important relationships? If she quit smoking, flunked college, had a bad relationship with someone, a failed business, overcame drug addiction - all in the past, let's move forward.

Speaking strictly for myself ... I have skeletons in my closet that aren't very pretty and I can't imagine being in a relationship with someone without disclosing all. I would also expect my partner to do the same. This includes what you mentioned, plus having been incarcerated or institutionalized (suicide attempt for example), having a mental or severe physical illness in the family, having had a child out of wedlock, or a number of other things. You just never know what a partner might object to, should he or she find out from someone else down the road. It is likely the biggest complaint would be to not have been told. :p



And does a woman (natal or trans) really need to say anything more than "I can't have children. How do you feel about adoption?"

This is tricky, certainly. I don't have all the answers. I guess the decision to not disclose the SRS would be fine if she knew without a doubt that it wouldn't be important to her partner.. But if this were the case, surely there would be no harm in mentioning it? The danger, as I said, would be to not disclose it, have him find out later through someone else that his wife was born with male genitals, and he wouldn't take it very well at all. The decision to tell would ultimately benefit the teller, not the one who receives the news.



To state that a woman (natal or trans) is being dishonest by not discussing things like that early on, or until (or unless) it was necessary - or even at all - is simply narrow-minded, arrogant and cruel, and the criteria that's been used in this thread to justify that viewpoint have been transphobic and cissesxist.

I agree that highly personal things shouldn't be shouted across the rooftops, nor should they be disclosed to anyone unless the relationships become intimate.

But, a crucial aspect of forming a deep intimacy with someone is the sharing of ourselves, the good and the bad, so that partners or very close friends can accept and love us for everything that we are. Just as we would do for them. This is what forms the strongest bonds that anyone can make with another human being.

Still, I also believe it is entirely up to a TS whether she chooses to tell or not. :hugs:

[Michelle.M]

Well, regarding disclosure and close relationships, I'll say this.

In the last serious relationship I had we both had things in our past that we each believed needed to stay there. When certain questions were asked that began to lead in that direction, either of us would say "Well, I have done things that I am not proud of and I'd prefer not to discuss that because I don't believe that it will make either of us feel better about our relationship. But it's in the past and I would do anything to keep from doing it again or letting it be a threat to us."

And that seemed to work. And to be honest, since I know there are people out there who think like that I doubt that I would ever attempt to make a life with someone who did not have a similar outlook.

[ReineD]

OK, Michelle, it's settled. You and I aren't compatible, serious relationship wise. :D

But, I hope we can still be friends! :bh:

[Michelle.M]

OK, Michelle, it's settled. You and I aren't compatible, serious relationship wise. :D

But, I hope we can still be friends! :bh:

:) <3

[AKAMichelle]

I think the major deciding point is if you are prepared to live with the consequences of what will happen if someone finds out something without being told by you. The person you mentioned may not have told their husbands, but if the husbands found out would it have ended the relationship. If the answer here is "YES" then it was wrong to hide it from them. That person entrapped them with deceit. The problem here is hard to determine. It is a very personal issue and I have an opinion like everyone else here.

I think before things get intimate it is best to tell. That can be stretched out by just waiting until later to be intimate.

[Rianna Humble]

I think the major deciding point is if you are prepared to live with the consequences of what will happen if someone finds out something without being told by you.

That question can apply to any traumatic event in someone's past. I was witness at the wedding of my two best friends whilst living in France. The (then) bride-to-be had been raped when she was a young child. Was she being deceitful by withholding that information? The (then) husband-to-be had fairly strong views on sex outside of marriage. She did eventually tell him before they were married, but only after I had managed to bring her to a point where she could accept that she was not responsible for what happened to her. By that time, they were very serious in their relationship, did she entrap him?


The person you mentioned may not have told their husbands, but if the husbands found out would it have ended the relationship. If the answer here is "YES" then it was wrong to hide it from them. That person entrapped them with deceit.

That is one of the most sexist remarks I have read in this thread. Each of the husbands married a woman - not a man in any sense of the term, more to the point they married a person with whom they had a loving relationship. I do not know Aleshia Brevard, but unless you have proof that she went out of her way to persuade the husbands that they needed to marry her. then you have no justification for calling it entrapment.

["Mary"]

Wow

1 - Very happy for you Julie. It's wonderful that you're connecting with folks since you seem to be a wonderful person.
2 - Dangerous ground on the trans/tell matter. Follow your heart and I'm sure you'll do the right thing.
3 - Don't leave us.

Thanks for sharing. Best wishes as the new relationship moves forward.

[Melody Moore]

Linda, you never did answer these questions by Frances....


Are you trans yourself? Do you know a lot of trans people?

Since Linda hasn't answered that question for Frances & the rest of us here, I think I will answer it on his behalf
after I took a look at some of his postings. Linda indicates in his postings that he is a closet CD & not even his
wife knows about his cross-dressing desires or habits & here is why I say this....

Do you recall any of these statements you made in the most recent thread you posted Linda?

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?144883-quot-I-don-t-think-so.-quot

My wife and I used to belong to a gym. We quit because of maintenance and staff attitude issues. She joined a "women only" gym and really likes it. Yesterday I was complaining to her about some aches and pains and she said to me that I should start exercising. I said "Maybe I could buy a wig and a set of falsies and join your gym." She gave me a very strange look for a second, then a normal look and replied "I don't think so."
It would help if you knew that:

1 She doesn't know I cross dress.

2 I was kidding. Of course I would be found out. It's just that funny look she gave me for an instant. Maybe she does know.
Not transphobic, realistic.
No Linda you are not realistic, you are extremely transphobic, to the point you can't even be honest with your wife!

So please cut the crap. I also strongly suspect that you hide your face in your avatar because fear anyone knowing
anything about you. Your knowledge about transsexualism is obviously very limited & you have no experience to have
any sort of qualified opinion about what others should be doing. It's also extremely hypocritical that you are advising
Julie here to be honest when you can't even be honest to your wife.

Julie seems like the type of girl who is very happy about being in 'stealth-mode' because she passes so well & I think
that you have some issues with that because you don't pass at all & cannot even be honest to your own wife. So as
far as I am concerned, your personal opinion is extremely hypocritical & means absolutely nothing to me & others here.

PS: Linda are you still borrowing your wife's clothes every time she turns her back & is away? (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?151164-Linda-Didn-t-Do-It) :heehee:

Hi Reine,

I think comparing CDing to transsexualism is like comparing a pear to an onion, they have very little to virtually
nothing in common. For a start transsexuals go on hormones which make permanent life changing alterations to
their bodies & often plan of having GRS/SRS in the future. So if you are already in a relationship then there is a
very obvious need to disclose this information to your partner because they might not be prepared to be with a
person of the same sex. Now a cross-dresser is a man or a woman who is only dressing up, 'pretending' to be a
member of the opposite sex. Putting on clothes of the opposite sex doesn't have anywhere near the amount of
implications for a partner of someone who starts taking cross-sex hormones & is thinking about GRS/SRS.

[ReineD]

That is one of the most sexist remarks I have read in this thread. Each of the husbands married a woman - not a man in any sense of the term, more to the point they married a person with whom they had a loving relationship.

This is true. The husbands married a woman in every sense of the word. And if she cannot have children she isn't any different than birth women who also cannot have children.

Yet, there is still a difference and it has nothing to do with actual gender. It has more to do with the spouse's perception of what is gender, if this spouse is ignorant of what we know here.

Most people, although it is rapidly improving, have no concept of gender other than the idea there are genetic men who believe they are men, genetic women who believe they are women, and nothing else except in movies. Until I got to know transwomen and transmen, my own knowledge was nebulous at best. Also, most people do have preconceived ideas that chromosomes define a man or a woman, even if they are wrong. It would be nice if schools provided a much more comprehensive education of gender and sexuality, and if everyone were raised in a progressive, bias free environment but sadly this isn't currently the case in our society.

So, there is a risk a spouse might feel lied to if he doesn't know the history and inadvertently discovers the past. You see this all the time on the other side of the forum with the GGs. I know that a TS and a CD are entirely different. But the similarity lies in their spouses. There is something that a GG needs to learn if she ever finds her husband's "stash" and that is, her man is still the man she has always known. In the TS's husband's case, if for any reason he should ever discover his wife's past, he needs to somehow realize that his wife is still the woman he has always known. Unfortunately, both the CD's wife and the TS's husband may feel aggrieved and be less likely to have an open mind if they feel they were lied to. They would also feel hurt by the lack of trust. They stand a much better chance to be willing to internalize their new understanding and move forward if they are told the history by their spouses rather than finding out by accident.

Now if both the CD's wife and the TS's husband are entrenched in the trans community, or they've had training in gender and sexuality and are as familiar with the realities as everyone here, it likely wouldn't be a big deal should they find out from someone else that their assumptions about their spouses were incorrect. The assumptions being, in the CD's wife's case that her husband doesn't wish to present as a woman occasionally and in the TS's husband's case, that his wife was born XX.

I still believe that to tell or not to tell is entirely the TS's option. But, I'm just afraid that she would risk losing her husband should he learn of her past through other means than through her.

[Plasibeau]

Partially. You've been surgically transformed into what "appears to be a woman". Yet you possess neither ovaries nor a uterus, making you unable to bear children. So do you wait to tell him until he expresses the desire to raise a family? ETC........

Seriously?

So by the same argument my friend who got ovarian cancer at 19 and had a full hysterectomy as a result isn't a woman either? Or if we simply focus on the ability to bear children, a woman who has scarlet fever as a child and is made sterile, she's not a woman either? Or a man who suffers an injury to his groin from a collapsed steering column in an accident, he now has to sit to pee and cannot produce sperm, is he no longer a man?

Gender is in the brain and nowhere else.

This is one of those moments where it would just be better to have kept your own counsel. And no you are not transphobic, that would require an irrational fear. What you sound like is ignorant and blissfully so. And shame on you for reveling in it.

[Michelle.M]

This is true. The husbands married a woman in every sense of the word. And if she cannot have children she isn't any different than birth women who also cannot have children.

Exactly! This is the point we've been trying to make throughout this thread.


Yet, there is still a difference and it has nothing to do with actual gender. It has more to do with the spouse's perception of what is gender, if this spouse is ignorant of what we know here.

This brings up another good point. The issues here have absolutely nothing to do with Julie's (or anyone's) "dishonesty" as has been alleged. The problem does not lie with the trans woman, but rather with society's (and by extension, the man's) state of gender identity awareness and acceptance that makes it desirable, maybe even necessary for survival, for someone to not reveal the configuration of their chromosomes.

Compatibility in a relationship is paramount. During the dating phase we're figuring each other out, whether they like baseball, get along with parents, etc. Attitudes about religion, politics and social issues are part of that. I am not an ethnic minority but I wouldn't want to be with someone who had racist tendencies. Likewise I don't care for negative attitudes regarding diversity, whether I have a personal stake or not.

If I were dating someone and they revealed such negative attitudes I'd end the relationship. If I found they had a positive outlook on gender diversity and gender identity I might or might not share my trans status, but at least I'd already know that whether I did or not he wouldn't have a problem with transgender folk in principle.

So the issue that remains - is not telling this particular positive-minded guy still deceitful? REF my prior post, depends on the relationship. If this one is like the last one and we've established some norms regarding what is current and what is past (and stays there, unspoken), there's no need. If you're dating someone who demands to know every detail of every day of your life, then you might need to rethink whether this is the guy for you.

[Frances]

Aleshia Brevard is a stage and screen actress (television and films), among other acomplishments, who transitioned young and never told the public about her pre-transition years until fairly recently. She has written an autobiography (The Woman I Was Not Born To Be).

http://www.aleshiabrevard.com

http://www.google.ca/search?q=aleshia+brevard&hl=fr&biw=1276&bih=823&prmd=ivnso&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=QybVTYGQKcrKgQf8l8j9Cw&ved=0CDkQsAQ

[MandyLee]

So if a lady has to have her overies removed and can no longer bear children then in your way of thinking she is no longer a GG. ??? get real DUDE

[Aprilrain]

Aleshia Brevard is a stage and screen actress (television and films), among other acomplishments, who transitioned young and never told the public about her pre-transition years until fairly recently. She has written an autobiography (The Woman I Was Not Born To Be)

Jeez I can't believe this thread is still going!

Anyway I think the above quote brings up a good point Miss Brevard transitioned young so did not have a lot of the baggage that comes with being an adult like kids, current or previous marriage, old masculine career so on and so forth. God I wish I'd figured my self out 15 years ago but I didn't. I really don't see how I could successfully keep information like the existence of my kids or wife or the very masculine jobs I've worked from a prospective love interest. In my case not telling ever is simply not possible, there would just be way to many ways for said love interest to hear from someone else or simple put 2 and 2 together and figure it out on his own. So I personally would tell and would want to. I spent way to many years hiding who I was on a couple of fronts and would not want the liberation I have experienced to evaporate simply to allow someone else's false assumptions about gender to go unhindered. If this person decided they couldn't deal with that information then they were probably not a good match for me to begin with. The sad truth is that for a TS like myself, stealth is just not an option which will likely limit dating possibilities. That being said I'm not currently dating but have had several people interested in me 2 woman and 1 man all of whom Know of my status which is pre op so I guess I should have hope for the future if and when I start dating. This is my take on my personal situation this is not a lecture nor do I believe anyone else should feel the way I do. I think every TS has the right to go stealth if they feel that that is in their best interest. Who am I to tell anyone else how to live.

[JulietteLeblanc]

Hi everyone,

My membership just got approved (yay! hi!), so I can stop parasitizing Frances' posts ;)


the baggage that comes with being an adult like kids, current or previous marriage, old masculine career so on and so forth
That is all part of who you are, and will be among the reasons why someone will fall for you in the first place.


I spent way to many years hiding who I was on a couple of fronts and would not want the liberation I have experienced to evaporate simply to allow someone else's false assumptions about gender to go unhindered.
I love your attitude! Nothing beats self acceptance and self confidence.


If this person decided they couldn't deal with that information then they were probably not a good match for me to begin with.
The way you tell them (and choosing the right moment) will most likely make all the difference as well.


I think every TS has the right to go stealth if they feel that that is in their best interest.
For me, being stealth is just a matter of not disclosing until it is necessary or otherwise worthy of interest. Like I always tell my daughter, I won't tell up front, but I won't lie when I'm asked. I see stealth mode as an "in the present" thing, certainly not as an absolute commitment or ideal to every possible situation in the future.

[Laurie Ann]

Where are the mods on this. This thread has been hijacked way beyond its original intent.

[Frances]

Where are the mods on this. This thread has been hijacked way beyond its original intent.

True, but it is a very important subject matter worthy of discussion.

[ReineD]

Anyway I think the above quote brings up a good point Miss Brevard transitioned young so did not have a lot of the baggage that comes with being an adult like kids, current or previous marriage, old masculine career so on and so forth.

This is a key point! Frances pointed out earlier that none of us must frame our own situation and experiences on any TS who makes the decision to go stealth. It's true that if someone transitions at a young age and she drop all her past ties, she will be in a much better position to do so than a person who is still in touch with their past through kids and other family members. How would Brevard's husbands ever have known, unless there was a fluke medical emergency?

When discussing concepts, most people have a sketchy "general" situation in mind and so I'm guessing that the people who are in favor of telling believe that "most" TSs do not completely cut their ties to their past. So maybe a consensus can be reached here, which is that it would be prudent to tell a husband if even there is an off chance he might find out from someone else, and if there is absolutely no way he would ever know (other than sheer fluke), then it is safe to not tell?


Where are the mods on this. This thread has been hijacked way beyond its original intent.
I'm not this section's mod, although I am a general forum mod. It is true that after congratulating Julie on her positive experiences, the thread did turn into a discussion of whether or not to tell, or when, which is something that Julie mentioned in several of her posts here. The discussion is not off topic at all.

It is a controversial issue and maybe other people in Julie's shoes will get some benefit from reading all the points discussed here.

If Julie becomes tired of the discussion before the thread dies a natural death, she can always PM one of the mods and request that it be closed. Until then, people should feel free to post their opinions, as long as they are made respectfully and without flaming anyone.

[Laurie Ann]

The subject may be interesting if so it belongs in its own thread not lumped into a post which has a different topic altogether. This took a wrong turn when individuals went off with their own agenda of what should or should not be done. If the topic is that germaine to a pre or post op transwoman start a thread for that do not go on for 5 pages of personal opinions. Remember opinions are like a**holes everyone has one and they all stink. Let's move this away to its own dedicated thread.

[Frances]

The subject may be interesting if so it belongs in its own thread not lumped into a post which has a different topic altogether. This took a wrong turn when individuals went off with their own agenda of what should or should not be done. If the topic is that germaine to a pre or post op transwoman start a thread for that do not go on for 5 pages of personal opinions. Remember opinions are like a**holes everyone has one and they all stink. Let's move this away to its own dedicated thread.

What agenda? Pointing out transphobic comments? It took 6 posts for ugliness to rear its head. I for one would have gladly simply congratulated Julie, but hateful words were spoken. There is a disclusure thread already, but the flow of this conversation is different. Even Julie felt the need to defend herself from perceived attacks. Why are you so concerned with the life of this particular thread? You could choose not to read or post in it.

[ReineD]

The subject may be interesting if so it belongs in its own thread not lumped into a post which has a different topic altogether.


I'm a tenacious sort, and I'd like to point you to two of Julie's statements that people here are responding to:


I must find a way to tell him before we become intimate. I dread that. But for now I made a real connection.


It's really no one's business until intimacy comes up, and some believe not even then.

Laurie, you are the person who is attempting to deflect the thread by arguing on whether people should address Julie's points or not. If you wish to discuss it with me or anyone else further, please do it via PM. If you persist on doing it in this thread I will have no choice but to delete all the discussion surrounding the merits of having this discussion. :p

[lizlizzie]

There is no brightline answer here; it seems to depend on the person and the situation.

For those who take the position that you don't have to ever tell, what happens if you’re married or in a long-term relationship and you are in an accident or diagnosed with prostate cancer or something similar? Your s/o finds out that you are transsexual in a moment of extreme stress possibly at a time when immediate medical decisions need to be made. I think Reine is correct and the fact you are transsexual isn't the issue, but the feeling of being betrayed, lied to, not trusting of your s/o enough to tell them, will be a big issue for the s/o. I know many of you will say this is statistically a small chance, but imagine the thousands of people who had to identify their s/o after the twin towers. Learning your s/o was post-op trans would devastate many people. Doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong, feelings just are. To those who take the position that they should never tell, if you love someone, consider the pain you could cause them by not trusting them enough to tell all about yourselves.

The general opinion seems to be the past shouldn't matter, but at the same time Melody is judging Linda on her past. I think the past is part of what makes us who we are today. I was kidnapped and raped as a child. There are certain things I won't do and certain things that affect how I feel and think because of it. If I want who I am with to be a possible long-term friend or a possible physical partner, I am not going to wait until the first hot and heavy kiss and then start discussing it. So, yes, I do talk about it. It affects not only the bedroom, but my opinions on child abuse, on men, on mothers (who allow this to happen); my opinion on many social issues and things we see on TV everyday. For a person to understand me, it helps to understand where I am coming from and why. I had no control over it; it wasn't my fault, any more than having been given the wrong chromosomes is your fault; yet there are a lot of emotional issues tied up in it and that makes it part of who I am. If you leave your past out of your relationships that matter, are you not denying part of who you are and denying the other person the opportunity to really know and understand you as a person?

The fact that I have no embarrassment about saying that my spouse is transsexual to my spouse is a positive thing. As a result, I have had the opportunity to answer questions from friends and promote acceptance and understanding. One thing we do know is that prejudice is often based in and promoted by ignorance. I understand you don't want to be a poster child for GID, but not everyone feels that way.

[Melody Moore]

The general opinion seems to be the past shouldn't matter, but at the same time Melody is judging Linda on her past.
We are all entitled to opinions, I expressed my opinion about Linda how I see it - extremely hypocritical.
And Lizzie, there is nothing to suggest that things have changed & here he is giving advice to others.
Sorry, but that type of crap don't cut it with me & I am sure it doesn't carry any weight for others here.

We all seem to agree that if you are going to be entering a serious relationship with someone then it's important to
be honest to the person you are meant to love. And here is Linda, married, preaching to others while lying & virtually
cheating on his wife & wearing her clothes behind her back. Sorry if you don't like what I have to say but this is my
most honest opinion which is backed up by the evidence of his own statements that I feel needs to be expressed here.

Linda is a cross-dresser (which is fine) but the truth whether we care to admit or not, he still in the closet
& obviously has little to no understanding of what it's like to be a 'transsexual' female. He has absolutely no
experience to speak of when it comes to advising the TS community. There is no way that he understands
the issues that affect us or how we see ourselves. Even though I am still pre-op I see myself like any other
female who can't have kids, but I wouldn't be so rude to force my opinion down the throat of someone that
is further into their journey than I am. This is not meant to be any sort of a flame, its just revealing the truth.

So I am not judging him (Linda) on his past at all, I am judging by what I see here & now!

[Babeba]

Last time Julie posted, it sounded like things were going well; I hope they still are!! :-)



As a GG dating a male who is still figuring out how much of his gender is male and how much/when that female side comes out, I see biological sex as being (in most people, not counting intersexed individuals) fixed as "F" or "M", but gender as being more of a continuum, with most people clustered near one end or the other regardless of their sex. From the outside holding hands with a person who is in some way trans, I expect it (as in, finding out about our partner's past or present or future) works similarly for all of us - it may affect us and make us re-evaluate our view of the world, and it may or may not be an emotional time for us to work through. The head space of a CDer vs a transwoman or transman seems to be very different - but it's more difficult for us on the outside to see that without experience, and I'm afraid that most cisgendered people don't quite realise yet what all the stuff inside is about.

[ReineD]

Melody, I didn't see Linda's post as crap at all and I think you are being harsh. There was no malice or petty intent in her words, just her opinion based on her own experience, which is what we all do here. Have you considered that Linda might be suffering tremendously from the pain of not having told her wife and she's only wanting to spare others the same pain? And if this is true, how do you think she feels about your attempt to ridicule and abase her? Where's your compassion?

[Rianna Humble]

Although I think that for the most part, this has been a very good discussion, there have also been some very sexist and hypocritical comments made.

If any of the CDs were posting out of concern that someone not make their mistake, they could have prefaced the remarks with something like "I did not tell and now regret it" and their tone could also have been less judgemental. One of them was asked if they had any relevant experience to contribute, but ignored that question and declared themself "realistic". If their post had been made out of concern that others not repeat their mistake then this would have been the ideal opportunity to say so.

I wouldn't go so far as some who have said that CD's are only "pretending to be female", I believe that an identity CD is genuinely expressing part of their personality when they present as female, but the point that they then go back to presenting as male definitely does obtain and makes it very difficult to make a true comparison between a man who sometimes feels the desire to present himself as a member of the opposite sex and a woman who needed surgery to correct a birth defect.

The fact is that it is always difficult to know how much to tell someone and at what point in a relationship, but calling someone out for not telling all on a first date, using cissexist definitions of what constitutes a "real woman", accusing people of deceit or worse still "entrapment" do not help anyone and are at best examples of projecting one's own fears onto another person and at worst manifestations of hatred.

[Zenith]

This is a difficult issue. I appreciate the civil discourse. Things are going well. We have had six dates and he introduced me to some of his friends during a screening, then we all went out afterwards. A GG in the group told me it was a good sign. Re-iterating again...it's just so nice to be Julie...that's it...Julie...trans just fades...the nicest moments are when I even forget. I still haven't figured out what to say. I guess there is a part of me that wants to enjoy being together in the moment...

[AllieSF]

Thanks for the update Julie. Enjoy it as much as possible, and hopefully it will all work out for both of you.

[ReineD]

I'm glad your having a good time, Julie, and I'm also glad you can just be yourself. :hugs:

Rianna, maybe I'm more naive than I should be, but when I read discussions like this my perception is that they take on a more general, conceptual tone. Even if it done in Julie's thread it is not about accusing Julie of any misdeed.

We're talking here about a fairly new concept, at least it is new for many of us who do not know more than a dozen people who have fully transitioned, and how many are young enough and beautiful like Julie to have absolutely no physical trace of having been born XY? (Even when I use words like "chromosomes" or "birth sex" I shudder to think that I may be using the wrong term, yet since I don't move in the same circles as the rest of you and have not had all the doctor's appointments, I'm not quite sure what is the best term to use that will not offend anyone).

This is a discussion about the ethics of disclosure, as I see it, and it should be treated as such, with all the different viewpoints exposed without taking anything personally. It is a learning experience, not an exercise in people-bashing, and the people who stand to learn should not, in my view, be blamed because their understanding is not as deep as the transsexuals who are living through this.

:2c:

[Rianna Humble]

Julie, I am really glad for you that the relationship is progressing so well and don't envy your quandary about if and when to tell him that you are TS. At least it is not quite as devastating as the problem raised in the thread Ethical Dilemma (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?153685-Ethical-Dilemma) :heehee:

Reine, I agree with you that the thread has branched out beyond Julie's problem to a more general discussion on what people should disclose about their past and at what stage in a friendship. It was in this spirit that I gave the example from when I was living in Paris. The GG in that example was very afraid that the man she had fallen for would reject and blame her for having been raped as a child, it was only when she could accept that she was not at fault that she felt able to tell him.

I use the term "birth sex" as a shorthand for "sex ascribed by the doctor at birth", but I don't think that any TS who has taken part in this thread would feel offended by you not knowing their preferred expression. I have never had any difficulty with people who say "I don't know" or "I don't understand", but I have very little tolerance for someone who in word or in deed says "I have no wish to understand". I feel that is the attitude that was shown by one poster whose attack on Julie was very definitely personal.

As always I appreciate the thoughtful and supportive contributions from you and from Babeba. Even though I feel that the comparison between CDs and TS folk is a difficult one, I can understand why it was being made.

Speaking for myself, I have not taken anything personally although some of the negative remarks about TS folk have been made in a very personal manner.

[noeleena]

Hi ,Zenith.

I think its so wonderfull that ....YOU ....can have this nice chap take an interest in you as your friend said go with it ,

just because some of us where born with out a womb does not change who we are as women or female intersexed , any way thats not the issue , the issue is be accepted as who you are ,

Have a good time & when it leads on to more. youll know when & what to say .
Hey you are a woman like i am so as i was told very strongly .....be one ....even tho our bodys are different ,we are who we are.
Enjoy the time to gether & let the flower blossom, have fun, you know what , im really pleased for you,

...noeleena...

[Jorja]

I have been sitting back and following this thread because it is very interesting to me the different thoughts on the subject from town to town and country to country. In all, there is a very strong concern about not being accepted. That has been true in the past. Since about 2005 there has been an opening of minds around the world. Slowly, society is becoming more and more accepting of being Transgendered in all that term covers. There is more educational opportunity through the media and by those in the community being out in plain view.

Julie, I am happy for you to get to be yourself with what sounds like a great guy.

I believe that "stealth" is an over used term. There are also varying degrees of stealth. Juliette has it right in saying it is just a matter of not disclosing until it is necessary or otherwise worthy of interest. I have only revealed my situation to anyone twice in 20+ years. #1 to my husband before we got married and had sexual relations for the first time. #2 to my doctor before a surgery I had to have. Otherwise, it is nobodys business.

Now if you are going to spread your legs for every man that comes along, it might be a diffrent story.

[Babeba]

Even though I feel that the comparison between CDs and TS folk is a difficult one, I can understand why it was being made.


It is incredibly difficult - and a reason why I don't post in here very much, as I don't know much about TS folk's experiences! Yet I think there are SOME similarities, at least with CDers and TS folk who are not fully transitioned, in terms of how that looks to the outside world. Most spouses/partners of CDers seem to ask, 'are you gay?' and 'do you want to become a woman?' when they find out. Clearly, some people on here seem to feel that once a transwoman has finished correcting the outside to match the inside there is still some 'maleness' she can't seem to scrub out and erase - I expect this assumption is just as erroneous as thinking that all people who crossdress want to transition.

[JulietteLeblanc]

Now if you are going to spread your legs for every man that comes along, it might be a diffrent story.

LOL... Of course in that case you're much less emotionally involved, so you might want to skip the disclosure step! :2c: (just kidding!)

[Frances]

Clearly, some people on here seem to feel that once a transwoman has finished correcting the outside to match the inside there is still some 'maleness' she can't seem to scrub out and erase - I expect this assumption is just as erroneous as thinking that all people who crossdress want to transition.

That is a popular misconception, and is probably why some people hold these prejudices. The trans people that are often seen in the media, at least in my country, are the ones that do not pass well or well enough to be stealth. Since they cannot hide it, they put it on the table, so to speak, for everyone to see. They want to be activists, are motivated by fear, wish to be famous or just need to be heard in order to feel like they exist.

There are lots of other trans people in society. They are cashiers, mecanics, doctors, bus drivers, etc. They are invisible, living stealthily in cis-culture. Opinion about trans people and their need to inform others about their misfortunate birth defect is based on a pervasive idea that they cannot utlimately pass. Only noticeable trans people exist in people notion of transexuality, while stealth trans people are, for all intents and purpose, cis-integrated, and do not feel or need to disclose what was.

[ReineD]

There are lots of other trans people in society. They are cashiers, mecanics, doctors, bus drivers, etc. They are invisible, living stealthily in cis-culture.

Frances or anyone else, would you have any statistics? In Canada (or the US), do you know how many SRS surgeries have been performed during the last 10 years? I'd love to know if the information is available.

... although, someone can certainly be stealth without having undergone surgery if they are single, or only their partner could know if they are in a relationship, but I don't know how widely spread this is. I also understand that surgery for FtMs is not as advanced as it is for MtFs and there are transmen who live their male lives without having had it. So all these people would not be included in the numbers.

The numbers I've read come from Lynn Conway's site (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html) and she estimated in 2002 that approximately 2,000 surgeries were performed annually, in the US and abroad, on US citizens. I wonder how much higher the numbers are now.

[Michelle.M]

Frances or anyone else, would you have any statistics? In Canada (or the US), do you know how many SRS surgeries have been performed during the last 10 years? I'd love to know if the information is available.

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your perspective, there are few statistics for nearly everything trans, and for several reasons (the desire for privacy being among them).

If your goal is to fully transition and just live your life then submitting to the pokes and prods of pollsters, grad students, sexologists and every other class of intellectual wannabee just hinders that process. And I don't believe it's simply a trans thing, either. I am part of several societal subsets and I just don't want to be bothered just because someone else has a thesis to get written. My life is just more valuable to me living it than it is being a set of data on a clipboard. Now, if I actually believed that my participation would help a trans person on their way toward their new life, that might be different.

Surgery figures are very hard to come by, and estimates are all we have. There really is no way of knowing how many surgeries are performed overseas, and besides, not every TS opts for surgery. Two good friends of mine are non-op, so the criteria of surgery does not adequately address TS issues other than those dependent on that particular data point.

So those cashiers, mechanics, doctors, etc may be pre-op, post-op, non-op, non-HRT, intersexed, etc. Yet they are trans, have participation in society and go about their business like anyone else.

I asked someone how many trans people she has met in her life, and while she was trying to come up with a number I helped her with the answer, which is "More than you think you have."

[JulietteLeblanc]

... someone can certainly be stealth without having undergone surgery if they are single, or only their partner could know if they are in a relationship

Exactly. Which is why I'm having such difficulty with the word "stealth" (and "disclosure"). I was "stealth" (or close enough) long before SRS to most people in my everyday life, after SRS I was "stealth" also to some men I dated, but I never was and never will be "stealth" to my dad or to my daughter. It's all very relative, and imho being stealth ultimately only refers to how you are perceived by strangers you meet every day -- and how the people that know talk about you (pronouns and such).

The only figure I've heard of, and pls add or correct if anyone knows more, is that 1 out of every 500 people would have or have had gender issues - which would include every possible state of transition. That would mean that a LOT of people would be perceived as cis in society (as Michelle is saying), but in their personal lives, I would assume they aren't "stealth" to absolutely everyone.

[Michelle.M]

The only figure I've heard of, and pls add or correct if anyone knows more, is that 1 out of every 500 people would have or have had gender issues - which would include every possible state of transition.

That's probably as valid as any. One report said 1:1000, another said 1:100. I have no idea what the study criteria were, but if that included every possible transition state I'd accept 1:500. If it included ever possible transgender state I could believe 1:100.

I'll take Juliette's 1:500 as a pretty good figure.

[ReineD]

I am part of several societal subsets and I just don't want to be bothered just because someone else has a thesis to get written. My life is just more valuable to me living it than it is being a set of data on a clipboard. Now, if I actually believed that my participation would help a trans person on their way toward their new life, that might be different.

I'm taking this a little off topic, but participation in any study does ultimately benefit the members of the trans community. It is the studies that change things like the definitions in the DSM.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i wonder if the words trip up the reality..."stealth" is just a word..."disclosure" "hiding", "lies" "deceit" ...ugh...these are all words that are used when talking about our lives....
but maybe they don't do a good job describing what is really happening..

we are born in a gender role that often ends up destroying our quality of life.....so many of us change our birth gender role and try to live a high quality of life...
but the reality is every single day of your life, it's possible as a TS that the past encroaches on your happiness and quality of life..there is no way around this...
and you just have to deal with it...

and just like it deeply matters to us, to me it makes sense that people care about the genders of their friends/lovers etc....
if a friend/lover/coworker finds out about our male past, they will usually react...and their reaction can be many things and some reactions may even be violent...it's a challenge...and once the person knows...it's forever...and once one person knows, oftentimes everybody knows...
and we just have to deal with it..
just because we feel we are in the right doesnt mean its easy to lose a lover or a job over being outed....and whether we like it or not..people's feelings are often hurt if they "find out"

those two things are tough to handle and it's a very unpredictable problem...it can be a stressful thing..we can say who cares what others think, but that's easier said than done...nobody wants to lose a friend or a lover or even a job just because of who you are..

[boardpuppy]

I have been lurking in this thread, trying to educate myself for something I hope to be a reality in the future. From a very selfish prospective it will be a great lose to us younger girls for you to leave but I understand if you decide otherwise. As to the orginal question and intent, you rock girl.......go for it.

[Michelle.M]

I'm taking this a little off topic, but participation in any study does ultimately benefit the members of the trans community. It is the studies that change things like the definitions in the DSM.

I can buy that up to a point. A commissioned study presented as such before some entity (AMA, APA, WPATH) that would have impact on the community - sure. An end of course thesis to complete one person's degree requirement - probably not.

And besides (to get back on track, because I'd feel guilty if I let the thread stray) the issue behind my reluctance to participate in a study is personal privacy as a basis for being stealth, or at least stealth-y. And that's the thing that makes it possible to just live your life as a woman, as a normal person and not as some circus sideshow or test subject or some trans organism in a really big petri dish.

I'm not a set of data. I'm a person. And while I'm all for helping people understand I can also do that one on one.

[Carole Cross]

This thread is supposed to be about Julie's date with a guy, not an arguement about when she should tell him that she is trans. She has already stated in the original post that she will tell him before it becomes intimate, I don't see why she has to tell him before then. If he is genuinely intersted then that shouldn't be an issue, everyone has a past life before they start dating.

All i have to say is congrats Julie :hugs:

[Jay Cee]

I plead with all who are participating into turning this into a rather heated debate: Please stop. Take a deep breath, and ask yourself "Is it really worth getting my blood pressure up about someone else's opinion?"

Zenith, I am very happy for you. Tthere are no right or wrong answers to the dilemma you face. You'll know when to tell him. :hugs:

[Sharon]

I have two iron-clad rules:

1 - thou shalt not post thy bigoted words in my forum;

2 - thou shalt not troll thy bigoted words in my forum.

Words of advice are wonderful no matter a person's opinions, but hostile ignorance is never welcome.




Okay now, back to the topic at hand:

I'm beyond happy for you, Julie, and I hope your relationship with Mr. X proves to be all you want from a relationship. :hugs:

[linda allen]

Linda, you never did answer these questions by Frances....
Since Linda hasn't answered that question for Frances & the rest of us here, I think I will answer it on his behalf
after I took a look at some of his postings. Linda indicates in his postings that he is a closet CD & not even his
wife knows about his cross-dressing desires or habits & here is why I say this....

Do you recall any of these statements you made in the most recent thread you posted Linda?

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?144883-quot-I-don-t-think-so.-quot

No Linda you are not realistic, you are extremely transphobic, to the point you can't even be honest with your wife!

So please cut the crap. I also strongly suspect that you hide your face in your avatar because fear anyone knowing
anything about you. Your knowledge about transsexualism is obviously very limited & you have no experience to have
any sort of qualified opinion about what others should be doing. It's also extremely hypocritical that you are advising
Julie here to be honest when you can't even be honest to your wife.

Julie seems like the type of girl who is very happy about being in 'stealth-mode' because she passes so well & I think
that you have some issues with that because you don't pass at all & cannot even be honest to your own wife. So as
far as I am concerned, your personal opinion is extremely hypocritical & means absolutely nothing to me & others here.

PS: Linda are you still borrowing your wife's clothes every time she turns her back & is away? (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?151164-Linda-Didn-t-Do-It) :heehee:

Melody,

You have gone to a great deal of trouble attempting to discredit me. You have looked up my past posts and quoted some of them in this attempt. You have insulted me by calling me names. I believe this crosses the line.

I should feel honored that anyone would consider me or my opinions important enough to go to all this trouble.

I suspect though, that for some reason, you just don't like me. I can't think of anything I've ever posted that would make you feel this way, but quite honestly, I haven't, given your posts the same consideration that you have apparently given mine.

I don't believe it's a requirement of this forum to be transgender or anything else for that matter. GGs are allowed to post, CDs are allowed to post, and I suppose anyone who can be somewhat polite and has something to say is allowed to post.

A discussion forum where everybody just echoed the same opinion on every issue would be a waste of time. I know I don't need to join a forum just to see everybody agreeing with me or patting me on the back.

My advice to the OP was just that; my advice. It differes from your advice and from the advice posted by several memebers, yet I feel I am entitled to post it for the OP to consider.

In this case, I'm posting from the perspective not of someone who is transgendered or spends a lot of time in the company of gay, lesbian, or transgendered people, but of someone living in the "mainstream" of society. If I understand the OP, she is dating someone from "mainstream" society. Someone who may not know a lot about CD, transgender, etc.

That's where my advice comes from and all I ask is the right to post it without a bunch of hateful responses.

Thank You.

[Melody Moore]

Linda, first of all I have gone to no trouble & never was it my intention to discredit you - you did that to yourself
in your own hypocritical statements - so you cannot blame me. I read quite a few of your posts at the time when
you posted them although I never interjected into those discussions because it was something that is your issue
& that only 'you' could deal with. Finding these posts with the statements you made was very easy, so it was no
trouble at all, so don't flatter yourself in thinking that I went to a whole lot of trouble because of you because I didn't.

As for not liking you, you are wrong about that, I don't dislike anyone. I only dislike certain behaviours and it happens
that hypocritical & dishonest behaviour is one thing I am not really fond of. Frances asked you a question of you were
transsexual, because if you are not, then I am afraid to say that you don't understand why it is so important for some
of us to be just accepted as females. There has been good argument here why we don't have to reveal our past to other
people. I am one of those who believes that 100% honesty is important, so anyone that gets really close to me will know,
but still, it is my prerogative if I chose to disclose that information. So I respected both those that disclose & those that
choose not to disclose their past or their desires & also respected you even though you haven't disclosed anything to
your partner. That is fine if that is your thing, but don't be standing there on a soapbox telling others what to do when
you cannot practice what you preach OK? especially when you don't really appreciate their perspective as transsexual
females. Others here also had issues with it and it's why Frances said that you were "projecting your own feelings on
Julie's love interest(s). And so was Rebecca.". Also Michele Martin pointed out "That projection of fear is the basis of
what we'd call transphobic".

You will be quite surprised how many transgender people are transphobic, there will be times that some people might
have real fears about others knowing about who we were in the past. I also think you are one of those people Linda,
you are transphobic because you don't want someone to know that you are a cross-dresser. So it's safe to say that
you also fall into this category, There are some out there as well that want to be 100% stealth that could also fall
into this category as well. However it is also harder to determine if they are transphobic because there are those
that just want to be seen, accepted & respected no different to other females. So you can't just accuse someone.

Even though I am one of those who doesn't want to be seen differently to other females, I don't believe that I am
personally transphobic because I have no fear & don't really care if someone knows I am transsexual. But having said
that I am not exactly going to go around advertising that fact & will only tell those that needed to know such as family
& close friends etc. And if someone questioned my gender, then depends who is asking, I might explain, because I have
no reason to lie, but I also have no need to really tell them anything.

But having said that, there are situations where there are legal limitations to how much information people can glean
from you, this is especially the case when it comes to employers. In a lot of places, (especially in Australia) nowadays
employers have no legal right to be questioning your gender identity due to new human rights/anti-discrimination & work
place laws. If they did this, then it raises the question of discrimination of a person because of their gender identity.

So as Frances pointed out to you earlier, "not telling upfront doesn't equal lying", especially about your past. Even
you are not required to tell anyone that you are a cross-dresser because that is also defined as being transgender.

Laws have been changed to cater for those of us who are transgender, especially those who are TS and/or post op where
they can get the gender markers changed on every documents including drivers licences, birth certificates & passports etc.
This is so our gender markers all match up to help avoid discrimination or dealing with humiliating situations. There is no
requirement in law to divulge that we are transgender or transsexual, instead the laws are there to protect us & our rights.

So what makes you think that anyone else the right to have to know about someone's past, or former gender identity?
I think is all that really matters is what is going on here & now & in the future, especially in your own life Linda.

If a guy falls for Julie for the person she is, seeing her & accepting Julie as a female, then that is the person her
boyfriend is more than likely falling in love with. The past has very little to do with it & it won't have any real impact
on their relationship if this guy understands that Julie cannot have kids. However even that still does not necessitate
the need to know about Julie's past because she as been born with a gender defect that prevents her from having kids.

Hey I just realised something, let me share part of my story with you, I never though about this until now.

My second last partner who I was married to for 5 years couldn't have kids, because apparently she had had a complete
hysterectomy sometime before I met her when she was just 33 years of age, but she already had 2 sons by the age of 18.

So she could have been their father & also a MtF transsexual who transitioned in her late teens & early 20's for all I know.
Who knows? her 2 sons could have fully adjusted to her role now as their mother. She was also Bisexual. I never had a
reason to question her about her gender before & not that it really ever mattered anyway & I certainly don't care now.

My main point is that even though my ex-wife couldn't ever have kids to me. It didn't make her any less a woman,
so being trans is no different to any of this. I don't see any reason really why Julie should even have to reveal her
past as a transsexual, because Julie is by now all legal & medical definition a 'female'.

[Sharon]

Sigh..., I guess some people just want to ignore the thread itself and insult the original poster and the majority of forum members with nonsensical bickering that would be better placed in a personal message.

I'm seriously getting fed up having to moderate behavior around here, folks!:Angry3: