Much ado about “wrongness” [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Frédérique

05-09-2011, 03:41 PM

Now and then, or more often than not, the crossdresser will bump into someone who feels that crossdressing is WRONG, based on some implied universal or eternal truth – it’s just wrong, and there will be no discussion about it. I endured this point of view from, of all people, my beloved sister – one day we were watching one of those Police chase video compilations on TV, and the cops stopped a car with a MtF crossdresser in it. Slowly but surely our heroine emerged from the vehicle, while the cops took pains to record the entire scene for posterity on videotape, laughing all the time. I felt mortified, being a closeted crossdresser, so I said nothing. Suddenly my sister said, “Oh, he shouldn’t be doing that – that’s wrong!” I need to point out that she was referring to the poor crossdresser, and not the policeman...
:sad:

When I came out to my sister last year, I replayed this moment in time that we shared, explaining to her that one reason why I never felt comfortable talking about my crossdressing was because she openly declared that it was WRONG for a male to do it. She blushed, and then apologized, while I just shrugged. Even the most culturally polished, freedom-of-choice, don’t-tell-me-how-to-think people I know, like my sister, still harbor some balance for correctness in their souls, and certain things are wrong, wrong, wrong, period. What’s a girl to do?

There was once a 20th century American philosopher named Richard Rorty, and he challenged this idea of eternal truths, which form the basis for moral absolutes and the concept of a soul. I wish to discuss the former, rather than the latter. It goes something like this:

“When we say ‘I know in my heart it is wrong,’ we assume there is an eternal truth about wrongness.” Also, “...we assume that the knowledge we have is certain knowledge, but absolutely certain knowledge of how things are is not possible.” However, “...we cannot find any eternal truths about ethics,” because “What we know is a matter of conversation and social practice.” Therefore, “There is nothing deep down inside us except what we have put there ourselves.” In other words, we are responsible for harboring this idea of wrongness.

To Mr, Rorty, we only become aware of something through conceptualizing it, and our concepts are learned through language. Our perceptions are therefore inextricably tangled up with the habitual ways that we use language to divide up the world. When we decide what counts as knowledge, our judgment rests not on how strongly a “fact” correlates to the world, so much as whether it is something that “society lets us say.”

If you can take away, or reject, the moral standards that have been accepted and cultivated by society, you will be able to question this idea of “wrongness.” You weren’t born with it, but you were born into a world of absolutes where many people feel, in their “heart of hearts” that something like crossdressing is inherently “wrong.” Must you believe that there is some truth about life, or some absolute moral law, that you are violating, in order to maintain even a shred of human decency? That seems WRONG to me, but I’m a crossdresser, operating within my own set of moral absolutes. I AM, therefore I dress, irrespective of the consequences, or the accepted, unquestioned moral truths of others...

Have you ever struggled with this concept of “wrongness” in regards to crossdressing? It seems to be at the heart of everything, including initial reactions, tolerance, or eventual acceptance, since society invariably sees us as people wearing the “wrong” clothes...
:straightface:

Kaz

05-09-2011, 04:21 PM

Freddy, you often pose these long narratives, which I love and enjoy and provide a contextual background that is rich... and then we trash it with the usual stuff!

So here is my starter...

This is a values and principles based issue. My wife thinks "it is just wrong".. there is no shifting her. All the rhetoric on this site about honesty and so on so pisses me off. Real life isn't like that for people like me. I live in the UK not Utopia!

It is wrong... it is not what men "do"!

So why do we do it?

Gillian Gigs

05-09-2011, 04:30 PM

Right and wrong have there roots in religion and culture. Religion gets the bad wrap, but I think culture has more to do with it as we are now living in a post religious culture. Right and wrong have more to do with someone motives and attitudes. How can anyone know why I dress the way that I do! Can they read my mind, well read this..........

Leyna

05-09-2011, 04:31 PM

I'm very careful when talking about the 'wrongness' of something. Mostly because I do believe that there are many things in this world that are inherently wrong. Being cruel is wrong. Being greedy or selfish is wrong. Harboring bitterness and denying forgiveness is wrong. What do these things have in common? They are crimes against other people. Simply put, we were put on this planet to be in relationship with one another. We need each other.

And I have struggled with this in relation to crossdressing. Not b/c CDing is wrong in and of itself but b/c of what it might do to the woman I care about with all my heart. I struggle: is it kind to keep a secret? Or is it kind to tell her? Am I selling her short? Or am I sparing her pain?

I just don't know. All I know is that it hurts...

sissystephanie

05-09-2011, 04:47 PM

Kaz, you do it because you like to!! There is no other reason! No one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to put on feminine clothes. At least I certainly hope not!! The crossdressers, or whatever they want to be called, on this forum are all the same in that regard. They dress in feminine clothing because they like to, and really for no other reason!! Now I know that I will hear from people telling me that there are many other reasons for crossdressing. But those aren't real reasons, those are excuses!! Yes, I said excuses because that is what they are. You and I, along with all the other crossdressers, put on feminine clothes simply because we like to!! Maybe it is wrong for men to wear feminine clothes, but who says so? Does anybody on this forum think it is wrong for us to wear the feminine things? Women wear some articles of men's clothing, so why can't we wear what we want? I am a crossdresser and I am very happy to be one!! And yes, I do it because I like to!!!!

Saoirse

05-09-2011, 04:52 PM

Have you ever struggled with this concept of “wrongness” in regards to crossdressing? It seems to be at the heart of everything, including initial reactions, tolerance, or eventual acceptance, since society invariably sees us as people wearing the “wrong” clothes...
:straightface:

All the time sister, all the time.

With me, it's not so much what others might think. People should be free to believe what they like. It's the would-be tyrants that concern me. Sadly they're not so very hard to find... from one end of the political spectrum to the other, they abound. :(

Color me libertarian.

Alice Torn

05-09-2011, 05:48 PM

Lorileah

05-09-2011, 06:08 PM

wrong would be walking off a cliff. wrong would be trying to kill yourself (as all animals have a need to survive). those are true wrongs.

In this case it is a learned wrong. You don't come out of the womb in pink or blue and have a built in need to wear a certain type of clothing. These are learned behaviors (as shown by how many other cultures have men in wrap around skirt type apparel). As the song says you have to be carefully taught. And as we know it is easier to learn than un-learn something.

Morals were instituted for the survival of the society they governed. The don't mix cloth made sense since each type of cloth would wear differently and thus fall apart faster than a pure one fiber garment. Don't eat certain meats because you would get illnesses. In the original Western type societies, there were defined gender roles governed by the golden rule. Those with the gold made the rules. When one has power one tends to make laws to keep that power. As we know, males had the power for hundreds of years. By enforcing strict gender rules they kept that power. I won't get deeply into why I believe certain clothing helped maintain that power but it did.

Morals also tend to change as needed. The two fiber thing is no longer an issue (everyone reading this is wearing a blend of some sort). The meat is safer now (although certain sects still adhere to old worries...eh..more for me then). We know that monthly cycles are not "unclean". That one in and of itself should be a good example as to why people need to re-think what they have been taught.

As to the clothing. This is a fairly new thing. No where in the bible does it state exactly what is male or female clothing so how do you determine that? Society made the rules. But then again those rules are fairly fluid. 300 years ago men in wigs were a status symbol. Stockings, make-up, perfumes all were male. The word "pumps" comes from a type of shoe worn in court by pages. As mentioned many societies have men in skirts, even short skirts. 100 years ago baby boys were dressed in dresses and let their hair grow. Some until they were 5 years old.

So where is it inherently wrong? Because someone somewhere arbitrarily said it was. There isn't an inborn wrongness. The idea that it is wrong is a learned behavior. It isn't a survival rule. Learned behaviors may have a place like killing another is wrong...except. There is always that caveat...except. Your sister would probably say that dressing in a skirt is wrong....except when Mel Gibson does it.

JohnH

05-09-2011, 06:19 PM

People do not have a sense of history. They assume that men have always worn pants and no makeup.

Genetic women have no right to question a man wearing a skirt of a dress when they wear pants. I would say that if your wife forbids you from wearing skirts and dresses you have the right to forbid her from wearing pants.

I think that there is going to be a sudden change in what men are allowed to wear as far a clothing and makeup are concerned since there have been so little change in the last 100 years or so. Women on the other hand have changed fashions in an orderly manner. Think of two earthquake plates. If they are locked together for years then there will be a violent earthquake to relieve the stress. On the other hand, of the plates can slide easily there will be no violent earthquakes.

Though, in Deut 22:5, it is called abomination, and I do believe in a Higher Power God, and spiritual laws, I have never had a lover, or wife, and I dress in moderation, because I enjoy it, but, I admit, that it is a conflict within, for me, and it is not really natural for men to wear women's clothes, so I am overwhelmingly in the closet.

Why is it not natural for men to wear women's clothes? It is simply fashion that men don't wear women's clothes.

I did get a laugh on Friday when I was wearing a floral dress with makeup and working on my fence in the back yard. I was levering out concrete anchors where the wood post rotted out with a 1.8 meter [6 foot] steel rod and a sledgehammer. The neighbors saw me.

Johanna

Denise69

05-09-2011, 07:04 PM

It is wrong... it is not what men "do"!

So why do we do it?

As so many of us has, I mulled this around my head for many of my 40yrs. The conclusion I came to was "right or wrong are strictly social con-strictures provided to us by the multitude of Un-thinking sheep-le" Once I let go of the "wrongness", I became much happier in who I am. While I do not feel sufficiently passable to go out and abroad. I am confident in who I am. I am a Person. Capable of love, pain, suffering and joy. I enjoy embracing both sides of my "self." I enjoy Dressing and presenting as best as possible, both male and Female. It's my "id", so screw wrongness.

I am Sorry about your spouses feelings and do not mean to belittle them. Been there and understand your pain.
Denise

Denise69

05-09-2011, 07:06 PM

[QUOTE=sissystephanie;2487350] There is no other reason! No one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to put on feminine clothes.

And if there is, there are websites for that..... LoL

Julogden

05-09-2011, 08:13 PM

I agree that for many of us, our inherent sense of right and wrong has roots in religion that we were taught when young.

Regarding Deuteronomy, if you check out this page (http://www.beki.org/crossdress.html) ,written by a rabbi, he presents Deuteronomy as forbidding crossdressing only when it leads to inappropriate heterosexual sexual activity. He mentions that others in the Jewish faith have interpreted Deuteronomy as forbidding women from putting on either men's prayer shawls or the raiment of warriors and warriors putting on women's garments. The current biblical interpretation, in my opinion, has been spun by the Christian churches to reflect Christianity's bias against crossdressing in any form.

Besides, according to many Jewish theologians (they ought to know, right?), Christians aren't bound by the Old Testament, it's Jewish law only, so why would a Christian get all hung up on Deuteronomy?

That said, I attended Catholic grade school, and of course, the Old Testament was presented as being something that did apply to Christians, so I got it embedded in me that Deuteronomy condemned me. That's probably part of why I still struggle with guilt sometimes. The other main part of why I have guilt issues is mainly because of my father, who figuratively and literally beat it into me that dressing in girl's/women's clothes was a terrible thing for a boy or man to do.

Carol

sissystephanie

05-09-2011, 09:45 PM

Carol, I will ask you as I have asked other CD's over the years! Did you dress to please your father, or yourself? Or to put it another way, do you dress now to please yourself or other people? I would bet that you dress to please yourself, as virtually all CD's do! If that is the case, then why would you feel any guilt? There should be none, since all you are doing is pleasing yourself!

And as far as Deuteronomy is concerned, I have had discussions with both Catholic Priests and an Archbishop regarding that part of the Bible and crossdressing. 2 Priests and the Archbishop all told me that since it was in the Old Testament it no longer applied to the present population!! Catholics are guided by the New Testament through the Pope! That same thought should apply to all Christians!! Excluding the reference to the Pope of course!! That part of Deuteronomy was written to prevent women from entering the men's part of the Church and to keep men from trying to avoid military service by dressing as women!! There is no relation to modern day crossdressing!

andrea69j

05-09-2011, 10:27 PM

But with the body and blood of Christ, GOD made a new covenant with those who believe and removed the old laws. Deut. claims many things are abominations, among them eating shellfish. ALL of the old laws are abolished, you don't get to pick and choose. - Anything more should be covered in the Religion forum.

Frédérique

05-10-2011, 03:44 PM

Though, in Deut 22:5, it is called abomination, and I do believe in a Higher Power God, and spiritual laws, I have never had a lover, or wife, and I dress in moderation, because I enjoy it, but, I admit, that it is a conflict within, for me, and it is not really natural for men to wear women's clothes, so I am overwhelmingly in the closet.

So where is it inherently wrong? Because someone somewhere arbitrarily said it was. There isn't an inborn wrongness. The idea that it is wrong is a learned behavior. It isn't a survival rule. Learned behaviors may have a place like killing another is wrong...except.

The current biblical interpretation, in my opinion, has been spun by the Christian churches to reflect Christianity's bias against crossdressing in any form.

Yes, this passage from Deuteronomy crops up from time to time, and I think it is the perfect example of an accepted absolute truth (as I mentioned in the OP). The fact that it exists, and is still referenced to this day, says a lot about the individual who espouses it, and that person is ultimately responsible for attaching certainty to what must be termed uncertain knowledge...

I was thinking about this last night after reading all these responses. First of all, I wish to say I respect people’s beliefs, and I cannot imagine a world without structure, but when I read these passages from The Bible, I wonder who wrote them, why they were written, and why they were included in what became the Bible as we now know it. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the Bible a collection of many things, written over the course of many years, authored by many different writers, all with their own agendas? It’s a fact, isn’t it? What did crossdressing constitute in Biblical times? Was it such a threat within society that someone had to label it an abomination, and then write it down for posterity?

It’s interesting to me that post-modern individuals still reference a text that originated many centuries ago, in a completely different time and place. I mean, way back then there weren’t many people on Earth, life was HARD, and life spans were ruthlessly short. You, or your mother, would be lucky to survive childbirth. There were no amenities as we know today, and just finding enough food or water to survive was a daily problem. Under these conditions, I’m guessing ANY behavior contrary to the common good would be termed frivolous, and thus condemned as an abomination. The fact that we are here, NOW, many generations later, is a testament to the ideas and sacrifices our ancestors made towards the formation of societal structure...

But, we live in a different time and a different world these days. There are many, many people roaming the Earth, and global communication has ensured that we are at least aware of other cultures and other ideas. Also, thanks to the numerous amenities we now enjoy, one has the time to think about, and entertain, other possibilities in regards to human behavior. I should also mention that, over the preceding centuries, many people have fought and died for freedom of thought, along with freedom of action, challenging these largely ancient precepts that are now favored by fundamentalists. Speaking of fundamentalism, isn’t pragmatism more suitable for today’s post-modern world? You can still read a passage from the Bible and agree with what you (or your peers) think it means, but, at the same time, you can draw upon many other interesting viewpoints that may modify or challenge your previously stubborn stance, and they can all co-exist. It all begins with dropping this notion of “certain” knowledge...

I think it’s safe to say that there is more information and history regarding human behavior these days, increasing daily, and we can reconsider the nature of crossdressing with the modern mindset we have inherited and subsequently improved upon. Not to do so would be truly abominable...
:straightface:

Alice Torn

05-10-2011, 05:08 PM

Freddy, Well thought out post.

Kathi Lake

05-10-2011, 05:35 PM

Kaz and Jillian are right in line with what I have experienced. To my wife, what I do is wrong, and don't you dare ask her to explain why - it just is! Case closed. Is there a religious component to it? Sure, but it's not the Deuteronomy conundrum that's at fault to her, as she understands that in context the reason that it was labeled as wrong was so men wouldn't dress as women to get out of 'combat duty' and so women wouldn't dress as men so they could fight (simplified), but instead, it's just wrong as men and women were created to fill certain small niches. Trying to blur the lines between those niches - through clothing or otherwise - is a slippery slope to other more immoral behaviors. She married a man, and she wants one who acts like that.

Yes, we know otherwise - that we're still who we are, regardless of how we dress - but it has nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with feelings.

Kathi

Kaz

05-10-2011, 05:49 PM

Kathi,

Nice one! My wife is a pronounced agnostic if not atheist, so there is no religion in there (unless we imply negative religion as a religion in itself)... she comes from a principles based perspective rather than a values based one, ie it is her belief that their is a fundamental logic to what we believe. Now I admit this may have been empatterned by her upbringing and by definition there may be a religous element to this... in her mind it is all very straightforward.

For me life is a little more "fluid" and changeable...

I don't judge others in right and wrong terms...

Kate Simmons

05-10-2011, 05:53 PM

Only one thing to say Freddy. I may not always be "right" but I'm never "wrong". 'Nuff said!:)

kimdl93

05-10-2011, 05:55 PM

Though, in Deut 22:5, it is called abomination, and I do believe in a Higher Power God, and spiritual laws, I.

Moses also said it was wrong to eat pork, and shell fish. I suppose that poorly cooked pork and spoiled shellfish might have been the motivation for those "divinely inspired" taboos. However, today most pork and shellfish is safe when cooked and served correctly.

So perhaps it is with cross dressing. Perhaps cross dressing posed some hazard to the wandering Isrealites 3000 years ago. But it appears that any apparent danger inherent in cross dressing long since disappeared from society.

Since I live in 21st Century America and not 3000 BCE, I can eat port, put cheese (dairy) sauces on shrimp, and cross dress.

VanessaVW

05-10-2011, 05:57 PM

Moses also said it was wrong to eat pork, and shell fish. I suppose that poorly cooked pork and spoiled shellfish might have been the motivation for those "divinely inspired" taboos. However, today most pork and shellfish is safe when cooked and served correctly.

I love pork and shellfish. I also wear mixed fabric drab clothing. Nope, I don't have tassels sewn in the four corners of my garment. Hmmmmm.

Tammy V

05-10-2011, 06:24 PM

My wife is now about 80% onboard with my crossdressing. In fact I am dressed right now and she will be back in awhile to watch tv with me, but this will only be the thrid time this happened. I told her last October and this is still relatively new to her. Two days ago she said it was wrong and if it wasnt wrong to dress I would do it at work or in front of my old friends or my parents. If its not wrong, why do you hide it she asks. I just don't think its everybodys business is why I hide it from certain people. Most of us that don't transition hide from some of the people in their lives. I am sure I don't know everything about some of these people and some of what they do might be considered wrong. Bottom line is nobody is getting hurt and most of need to dress or we probably wouldn't so how is it wrong?

Alice Torn

05-10-2011, 09:00 PM

I don't eat pork or shellfish. All those things are scavengers, and it is also unhealthy to eat animals of prey. He made the bloody creatures, so He knows which ones are unhealthy, as the bottom feeders and swine eat all the bad stuff. Cows have for stomachs. Farmers have had heart attacks, died, and the pigs ate the bodies! "Clean" animals are grain eaters. Shellfish eat the cruc that goes to the bottom. Cross dressing is another ballgame, with a number of reasons, and some of us were "set up", from early experiences. We don't eat women's clothes! Ha!

Lorileah

05-10-2011, 11:13 PM

joanna marie

05-11-2011, 12:06 AM

I wonder who wrote them, why they were written, and why they were included in what became the Bible as we now know it. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the Bible a collection of many things, written over the course of many years, authored by many different writers, all with their own agendas? It’s a fact, isn’t it? What did crossdressing constitute in Biblical times? Was it such a threat within society that someone had to label it an abomination, and then write it down for posterity?

My World History Professor always said that" if someone made a law against something than it must have been a PROBLEM in that society at that time in History"

That is why you find water rights outlined in the Bible

There must have been a lot of people crossdressing in bibical times in order to write this into scripture
Or it could have been one man that was worried about the order of society being challanged by free thinking people

Saying that God doesn't want you to crossdress that has more authority than saying I don't want you to cossdress.

Pythos

05-11-2011, 01:01 AM

IN the time of Moses there was a religious sect that as part of their rituals both sexes took on looks and behaviors of the other sex. Along with this, in the tribes under Moses, there remained the customs of the Hebrews. The Hebrews were sexually segregated. What would happen is WOMEN would dress like men so they could go over to the male areas and have illicit sex (I am sure some men did the opposite). Then there were the men that dressed as women to get out of fighting.

As can see there were many reason for deut 22:5's writing. But there were many other laws in Deut that NO ONE pays mind to these days, and many have the word "abomination" in them.

Every educated discussion I have read or had concerning this verse says it has NOTHING to do with modern day crossdressing. It had to do with infidelity, adultry, sex outside of marriage, and cowardice. If people actually followed the old testement there would be MANY MANY dead people. Newt Gingritch, Donald Trump, Madonna, to name a few would be dead for their adulterous actions. I would be dead for mouthing off at my parents when I was younger.

Thank the maker we do not follow that old book.

Jodi M

05-11-2011, 02:14 AM

I think to our society crossdressing is wrong because everyone wants to look at a person and see either a woman or a man and it is not conceiveable that a person could be both masculine and feminine and dress either way. "We like too", yes we do. It is because there is a feminine part to who we are and we are being that part, just as we are being our masculine part when we dress as a male.

shesadvl

05-11-2011, 03:04 AM

so...do you eat chicken? They scavenge. and they eat bugs. Technically plants also scavenge by using decaying carbon matter as food. Pigs are omnivores they eat anything, just like humans do, they don't chose to eat garbage. But that isn't the question here. The question was why is it wrong? And just because some old man somewhere wrote it on scroll doesn't explain it.

I am still waiting for someone to explain "why" it is an inherent wrong. What law of nature makes it wrong, that was Frederique's question. Because it is bright and colorful? Most males in the animal world are bright and colorful so that isn't it. It kills others? No...not that. It takes food from people's mouths? Nope. It makes you gay...yeah...uh...no. It spreads disease? C'mon somebody give me something here to work with besides a book. Tell me how a man is a dress changes the course of the world and how it functions day to day.

yes i eat chicken..... brek kek.... I am into my vegetables as well I wasnt going to get into this lol but i googled your question:

"why" it is an inherent wrong. What law of nature makes it wrong which was Frediriques question:

perhaps you may find an answer within there.... with the following...

Search ResultsMoral standard - Nov 1896 - Google Books Result
Popular Science - Vol. 50 - 148 pages - Magazine
It thus happens that distinctions of right and wrong constantly refer to ... the ceremonial code habitually passes over the inherent qualities of actions. ...
books.google.co.nz/books?id=gCMDAAAAMBAJ... - More book results »

Commentaries on the laws of England: in four books - Google Books Result
Sir William Blackstone, William Draper Lewis, William Blackstone Collection (Library of Congress) - 2008 - History - 2064 pages
God himself cannot make right wrong or wrong right. Right and wrong are eternal ... in starting with the assertion that the law of nature is the will of the ...
books.google.co.nz/books?isbn=158477763X...

(the above makes for interesting reading)

With how i see right and wrong.... its your right to do what ever pleases you,.. eat what you want,... dress how you want, who cares if you dress in a dress ,
not me thats that persons right,

why do Priests,.... doesnt matter what denomination wears a dress,....lol yeh ok...ill get smacked for that one ,...
but thats a vicars wife's outlook at her husband who chooses to be one (a vicar) and prance around in a dress......

as we understand the way we.. were/are bought up,... it is embedded n us the right and wrong ,..whats moral and whats not, i was given an open mind and I see things as I wish to see,
believe in how i see things even thought until we are able to use our own minds to see the difference of right and wrong, therein we had moral upbringings,
we adhered to as children... no matter that some of the things in those growing years we thought were wrong.... as we got older we understood them better.

here are a couple of things i found just in asking the question out on the internet.....

What's the difference between something being wrong and something being inherently wrong?

What exactly does inherently wrong mean? This can also apply to inherently funny.
Smoking is wrong. Society today dictates it. But society back in the 1950's embraced smoking as cool. Everyone did it.

Murder is inherently wrong. It is wrong today and has been wrong throughout history.

• The saying; the right way, the wrong way and the Army way pops to mind. For an answer, or action or whatever to be inherently wrong there is an inaccurate response given in a negative environment, which could be inherently funny as well.

• inherent~
existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute: an inherent distrust of strangers.

• Interesting question -- I'd never really thought about it. I think inherently wrong means something is wrong in absolutely every single conceivable circumstance.

• inherently wrong - the nature of the issue is wrong but it's not readily apparent or evident

or is this the real answer...;)
God himself cannot make right wrong or wrong right. Right and wrong are eternal ...

have i lost the plot laffing...hope not...... I wonder that last comment could be the answer.... "its not readily apparent or evident..."

I am sure if you want to "why" perhaps thats an eternal question as wel Lori laffing....:p

Irene shesadvl yup thats me :battingeyelashes:

EDIT: I also read Deuteronomy 22:5

I cracked up you have to read it with my wicked sense of humour.... laffing... lipz are zipped... :battingeyelashes:

an NO there are no tassles at the four corners of any of my garments...laffing they could be worn elsewhere laffing :tongueout: :battingeyelashes:

Joanne f

05-11-2011, 03:35 AM

There is no law of nature that makes anything wrong but the difference between nature and humans is that humans have this thing called "consciousness" we are aware or at least meant to be aware of our effects on other things as other things have an effect on us , we can make a conscious decision on whether to do something or not and feel the consequence of it unlike a chicken that will just eat a bug and think no more about it .
So we are aware of certain things that are expected of us and we are aware of how this may affect others because we are conscious of this and it is this consciousness that creates this right and wrong .
Change the way on how people consciously thing about something and you change the way they think on whether it is right or wrong .

SusieK

05-11-2011, 03:36 AM

It's not what it is, it's what it represents - and that is seen as a threat. My wife, on a rational level, is OK with crossdressing, as long as it is other people and their lifestyle choices. With her husband it's a different matter, and may represent something else and therefore becomes wrong. Within the wider community, the difference between the genders is something that people cling to (men in particular), in terms of roles and sexual attraction. To be seen as fundamentally secure in your masculinity is to be respected by your piers, and anything that challenges this is to be ridiculed/feared (where in this instance both these emotions/reactions have the same root cause). We all carry around in our heads a model of the world around us, and when things contradict that world-view, one of the ways to react is with revulsion at the wrongness of it.

It's like the he/she/it thing. Rather than treating you as a human being, people suddenly don't have the faintest idea what you are. This confusion is not a comfortable feeling, and a natural reaction is to lash out against it.

shesadvl

05-11-2011, 03:42 AM

So we are aware of certain things that are expected of us and we are aware of how this may affect others because we are conscious of this and it is this consciousness that creates this right and wrong .
Change the way on how people consciously think about something and you change the way they think on whether it is right or wrong .

if that were so easy joanne :clap:

Alyla

05-11-2011, 06:20 AM

Frederique,

You always provoke me with your viewing of the world, and I must take my time and think of what you say. Thank You, for stimulating my thoughts.

There was once a 20th century American philosopher named Richard Rorty, and he challenged this idea of eternal truths, which form the basis for moral absolutes and the concept of a soul. I wish to discuss the former, rather than the latter. It goes something like this:

“When we say ‘I know in my heart it is wrong,’ we assume there is an eternal truth about wrongness.” Also, “...we assume that the knowledge we have is certain knowledge, but absolutely certain knowledge of how things are is not possible.” However, “...we cannot find any eternal truths about ethics,” because “What we know is a matter of conversation and social practice.” Therefore, “There is nothing deep down inside us except what we have put there ourselves.” In other words, we are responsible for harboring this idea of wrongness.

I have to agree, for the most part those things we do wrong are our own, we own them, they are our own projection, our own theatre of our own absurdity. I can find no evil in things, possessions, or attributes of another, I don’t conceptualize inherent evil. Though I have been told of it. I am having trouble linking moral absolutes, and the concept of the soul, I don’t feel them to be a certain knowledge. Or a rhetorical eternal truth. Very few things have been shown to be eternal, infinite perhaps, by not eternal.I think my soul is infinite. Both on the quantum level and on the larger cosmic level. In this brief moment of time on this rock it nary matters what I wear, and We all should be taken seriously regardless of our preferred choice of attire.

To Mr, Rorty, we only become aware of something through conceptualizing it, and our concepts are learned through language. Our perceptions are therefore inextricably tangled up with the habitual ways that we use language to divide up the world. When we decide what counts as knowledge, our judgment rests not on how strongly a “fact” correlates to the world, so much as whether it is something that “society lets us say.

Language, I think is at the heart of the question. The definitions of our language are not eternal; they are in a constant state of flux. It is where we find pronouns with gender implications, even the romantic languages of all things give verbs gender qualifications. I wonder of the implications of this over time, and in a human’s ability to conceptualize their world with these indoctrinated values. There is needed a grand ability to step outside of one’s ego or centre and view things without the implied prejudices of our societies(learned behavior). Not an easy thing to do. Alas judgment seems so restrictive a concept, so final; perhaps evaluation would be a most satisfactory word to use because we may modify our evaluations of things over the infinity of time.

If you can take away, or reject, the moral standards that have been accepted and cultivated by society, you will be able to question this idea of “wrongness.” You weren’t born with it, but you were born into a world of absolutes where many people feel, in their “heart of hearts” that something like crossdressing is inherently “wrong.” Must you believe that there is some truth about life, or some absolute moral law, that you are violating, in order to maintain even a shred of human decency? That seems WRONG to me, but I’m a crossdresser, operating within my own set of moral absolutes. I AM, therefore I dress, irrespective of the consequences, or the accepted, unquestioned moral truths of others...

Actually, I feel I was born into a world of past absolutes, the values of my phylogeny, the values and constructs of my human predecessors. I feel we, the new stakeholders of our future have an obligation to evolve into a new creation, with a new liturgy for a new world. The heretics of the world, who challenge old values, to create new ways of seeing the physical world they live in have always taken the knife. I feel maybe that is an absolute, I hope it is not, but it maybe proven overtime to be so. “Life is not fair.” I have taught my children this so they are prepared for the ironies of there existence. I have excepted the fact that there are more geniuses in the world offering advice than there needs to be. I think perfection is a destination never to be reached but something g to aspire to. I believe there is a theory of everything, where the physical and metaphysical will live in harmony, and quantum mechanics will be unified with relativity. But these are beliefs and wishes I hope the world will aspire to.

I have implied some things to be absolute here, I need no support on these, they are beliefs, improvable, but beliefs none the less. Perhaps there will be a day when are language will evolve out of prejudice and misogyny, and the twin spirits of the soul may unify. But enuff of my personal ramblings I fear only to stir to many motions and overflow the pot of defensiveness. It is time to rest and breathe deeply of the spring air, sit in the dappled light of the forest and actually see the trees.

Alyla

kimdl93

05-11-2011, 08:56 AM

Safe in the hand of one disposing Pow'r,
Or in the natal, or the mortal hour.
All Nature is but Art, unknown to thee;
All chance, direction, which thou canst not see
All discord, harmony not understood,
All partial evil, universal good:
And, spite of pride, in erring reason's spite,
One truth is clear, whatever is, is right.

Sophie86

05-11-2011, 10:08 AM

I'm not sure which is worse, people like Rorty who can't discover any objective basis for ethical principles at all, or the people who think they have found it in the 2000+ yr old decrees of an imaginary being. Given the vagaries of Biblical interpretation, I think it all comes down to the same thing. It's just that the latter like to pretend that their whimsical interpretations give them a source of absolute truth.

Alice Torn

05-11-2011, 02:40 PM

I enjoy women's clothes as much as any here, do. To be a human being, is to be in conflict. Pigging out, and gluttony is wrong. Driving drunk is wrong. And, just about anything can become wrong, or an addiction/compulsion. Crossdressing for the sake of driving another person or mate crazy, would be wrong. Or, playing stereos so loud, that your neighborhood shakes, is wrong, or a million other things that hurt others or ourselves. I know that I am just a knuckle dragger, if I don't use self-control, in dressing, or anything, and the Big Ten were given to put restraints on human nature, lest we all be out of control knuckle draggers. I may not always agree with all of you, but, i respect your right to your opinion, and there is always a lot of thought, and truth to everyone's posts. Thanks Freddy, for the stimulating thread!

Frédérique

05-11-2011, 04:54 PM

I am still waiting for someone to explain "why" it is an inherent wrong. What law of nature makes it wrong...

The thing is, it’s a difficult issue to come to terms with, and there are no clear answers. I was hoping to mention this in the OP, but many things (or ideas) are taken for granted simply because they have existed for so long – if longevity is present or sustained, it must be correct, whatever it may be. We tend to worship things that have stood the test of time, regardless of their relevance in this day and age. Perhaps some people read ancient texts and find verification for their own ideas or prejudices, meaning a kind of confirmation that modern thinking cannot satisfy...

I was going to add something else about Biblical times, namely the fact that women were second-class citizens. That may or may not relate to MtF crossdressing as such, or have something to do with famous Biblical passages, but it’s worth considering...

Right and wrong are eternal...

I know, it's a quote of a quote...:straightface:

In my opinion, right and wrong are human inventions, as is the concept of eternal. The rest of the natural world just carries on as usual, while we stop to think about it. Hooray for us!

“Man is an invention of recent date.” (Michael Foucault)

I'm not sure which is worse, people like Rorty who can't discover any objective basis for ethical principles at all, or the people who think they have found it in the 2000+ yr old decrees of an imaginary being.

Oh, I wouldn’t dismiss contemporary philosophy, or any philosophy for that matter, with such casual brusqueness. I’m just interested in finding out where (or why) an idea of wrongness, specifically as it pertains to crossdressing, originated, and why was it allowed to perpetuate unchecked? The passage from the Bible may or may not be the best starting point, but it’s worth examining, wouldn’t you say? Since we’re still troubled by this nagging idea of "wrongness," and the lack of understanding it fosters, I wish to frame the question in the thinking of my own time and draw upon any or all resources at hand. I just know that there is a completely different, perhaps relatively innocent, explanation for the passage in the Bible, but if you don’t care about writing that has given form and substance to ethics in our current era you are doomed to ignorance about subsequent human behavior...

Like it or not, “2000+ year-old decrees of an imaginary being” have shaped human history, and we crossdressers live with the consequences. As 21st century individuals, we KNOW there is nothing inherently wrong with crossdressing, but to someone outside of our community this informed attitude either falls on deaf ears, or causes friction with those who are certain they are RIGHT. I honestly don’t know how one can change attitudes about wrongness, since everyone seems to believe in the certainty of knowledge, meaning the knowledge they have chosen to hold on to and believe. People decide what constitutes right or wrong, based on the language they use, or the social interaction that houses that language, but I wish to say that wrongness makes the world go round – you need a concept of rightness for wrongness to exist, and someone, somewhere, at some point in time years ago, made that decision FOR us. We are free to overturn this idea, but people still live in the past, meaning a past where there were few alternatives...

Thanks Freddy, for the stimulating thread!

I’m surprised it became this stimulating, Louise! :doh:

NicoleScott

05-11-2011, 05:29 PM

I have enjoyed this discussion, but now it's time to make up, dress up, and eat some bacon-wrapped scallops.

Kaz

05-11-2011, 05:43 PM

Tha's a good point Nicole... I just want to thank Freddy for yet again stimulating a debate that potentially changes underlying perceptions. Genius!

BTW... sorry I have to say it... if you were a member of a tribal, nomadic people living in the desert and in very hot conditions in the day (cold at night), with no refridgeration, and not a lot to do for a lot of the time apart from finding water and food... believe me... you would not eat pork or shellfish and you would worry about your women (if you were a man)...

A lot of this is steeped in history and practicalities. A lot of religious belief is code for living in certain times. We also have a code for our times. Is CDing wrong?

Fab Karen

05-11-2011, 09:04 PM

"Wrong?" Who says? Why? Compare: A woman wearing pants is "wrong." A woman doing "men's work" is "wrong." A white person & a black person having a relationship is "wrong."
Or should we just use the "witch test" method? If she drowns, innocent. Floats, guilty & sentenced to death.

btw, it helps to control people if you take a book allegedly called the words of god, and re-write it to suits the desires of kings & church-leaders ( it's happened many times ).

"We must have order" -thinking used by a guy with a funny moustache, who used a symbol of good luck on flags & uniforms which later got referred to as a "crooked cross." People don't remember him kindly for some reason...

docrobbysherry

05-11-2011, 11:03 PM

When I was quite young, I developed a deep fear of dying. Thinking that religious teaching mite help me, my agnostic folks took us kids to a few different churches and Sunday schools.

I listened to all the biblical and ancient tales, parables, and "how to's" patiently. I decided that believing in God and Heaven were GOOD THINGS! Because even if they were imaginary, I wouldn't know! So, whether or not they r real, if I believed, I'd WIN!:D

That was some 50 years ago. I've been TRYING to make myself believe the entire time! And, I STILL CAN'T!:sad:

I've only been dressing for 14 years and for the last 5, I've been telling myself there's nothing wrong with THAT! :brolleyes:

Much like heaven, I WANT to believe, but can't believe that dressing is OK EITHER!:straightface:

ReineD

05-12-2011, 12:46 AM

Let's try this on for size. :)

Many CDers struggle with the concept of whether the CDing is right or wrong (see Doc's post as an example). By the time someone has fully accepted themselves including those who will transition, the question is resolved. It becomes the right thing to do, from those who CDress to those who transition.

I propose that for the gender variant, the question of right or wrong is closely tied to the degree of imbalance that exists until full self-acceptance is reached. There's an internal gender push/pull that is difficult to reconcile, because we do live in an external gender-binary world. And like it or not, genetic males have genetic male hormones, on top of having been socialized as males. That's a huge condition to overcome! Is is surprising that so many, perhaps like you, struggle with other people's opinions as to whether it is right or wrong?

Other than perhaps the few TSs who know from childhood they are women, if it is so difficult for most TGs to reach self-acceptance no matter where they sit along the gender spectrum, it is bound to be even more difficult for the outsiders who are asked to accept, and further embrace, the existence of something they've not experienced and further that they cannot see.

Frédérique, you've written a beautiful essay on the conceptualization of wrong and how it is reinforced through language, but at the end of it all acceptance among our loved ones can only be reached once the concept of the transgender condition is irrefutably recognized. This takes time, lots of exposure, and a willingness to go against the norms. If you will accept that until then, the people who are not in the know will at times struggle with the "wrongness" of it all, then it may help you to cease struggling so?

Most people do fear the unknown. This is why so many spouses and loved ones find safety in their refusal to accept the concept, like Kaz's wife. If there were more TGs, say even 25% of the population for example, no one would question whether it is right or wrong. It would just be.

Frédérique

05-12-2011, 06:12 PM

I've only been dressing for 14 years and for the last 5, I've been telling myself there's nothing wrong with THAT!
Much like heaven, I WANT to believe, but can't believe that dressing is OK EITHER!

Which reminds me...:thinking:

I don’t wish to belabor this topic, but there is something underlying this concept of “wrongness,” namely gambling on the existence of a supreme being. You cannot be certain that God exists, and it is also impossible to prove that he/she/it does NOT exist (just ask Bertrand Russell). Meanwhile, a person here on Earth does not know how to proceed – do you carry out your existence with moral certitude, in anticipation of an afterlife where your future participation depends on doing the “right” thing right now, or do you gamble that life is finite, and you need to enjoy it while you can, all the while ignoring signals that something you’re doing may be WRONG in some way? It’s not fair, is it? I mean, you want to do the RIGHT thing, and not give in to any temptation, meaning existing as a moral being to ensure your eventual reward – in this regard, crossdressing represents a problem, either by doing it, or being aligned with it in some way, and it is seen (unjustly) as wrongness. Why? Well, somebody said so...

Tell me, what was going on before this moral argument began? Did someone decide that certain forms of behavior were correct, and others wrong, and this person was able to impress his views on the populace via threats and/or violence? Thus began civilization, I assume, and a promise of human glory, but the price was steep – we are still bound by suppression and asphyxiated by ethics. Maybe this meant something many years ago, but I think we’ve “made it” and its time to relax a little – not only physically, but also mentally. I wish someone would right the wrongness that has been outlined and reinforced by the architects of society, and, of course, I'm talking specifically about the perception people have that crossdressing is wrong...

I propose that for the gender variant, the question of right or wrong is closely tied to the degree of imbalance that exists until full self-acceptance is reached. There's an internal gender push/pull that is difficult to reconcile, because we do live in an external gender-binary world. And like it or not, genetic males have genetic male hormones, on top of having been socialized as males. That's a huge condition to overcome! Is is surprising that so many, perhaps like you, struggle with other people's opinions as to whether it is right or wrong?

Other than perhaps the few TSs who know from childhood they are women, if it is so difficult for most TGs to reach self-acceptance no matter where they sit along the gender spectrum, it is bound to be even more difficult for the outsiders who are asked to accept, and further embrace, the existence of something they've not experienced and further that they cannot see.

I wish to say I do not look in the mirror and think, “This is wrong.” That has thankfully never happened, but when I was about to begin crossdressing many years ago all of these myriad ideas of wrongness and rightness filled my mind. I recall wondering IF I could successfully dress as a woman, not should I dress as a woman – there was more of an attachment to my ever-present masculinity, reinforced by familial pressure, other than any feeling of inherent wrongness, but as soon as I gathered enough courage to experiment, I dressed in women’s clothing and looked in the mirror. Luckily, I liked what I saw, and any idea of doing something “wrong” dissipated like early morning fog – I also REALLY enjoyed pushing my masculinity aside, if only for a short time. Self-acceptance was immediate, in my case, but I am, by definition, just a MtF crossdresser, nothing more and certainly nothing less...

This idea of wrongness being linked to visibility is very interesting, and I hadn’t considered it until now. If something is hidden, for whatever reason, it MUST be wrong, correct? I don’t feel the need to share everything I do with casual acquaintances, or even my best friends, so my inherent invisibility springs from that, and not any “taboo” aspect about crossdressing. This is a cruel paradox – I’m hiding my crossdressing from others because I assume they carry this innate ability to detect wrongness (see above), and they will censure me accordingly. On the other hand, any desire I may have to become more visible is held in check by my understandable fear of these misinformed purveyors of ethical behavior, all of whom are way more visible than I can ever hope to be. I could argue incessantly for justice, but confrontation is not in my makeup (pun intended). All I can do is create my little heaven on Earth, here and now, and enjoy the dwindling time that is left to me, dressing as I see fit...
:straightface: