Acceptance?

[Christy_M]

My wife is one of the smartest people I know. She has me, hands down, on many topics and sometimes it baffles me when something comes out of her mouth that was obviously not thought through...

Wife: Are you going to have our kids (5 and 6) around other transpeople?

Me: Do you mean "am I going to throw a giant transparty and invite our children?

Wife: You know what I mean, of course not a transparty.

Me: OK, then, "yes" they will be see other transpeople

Wife: See, I have a problem with that at their age...

Me: Would you want them around homosexual people?

Wife: They are different because they present...

Me: Wait a minute, they present what?

Wife: You didn't let me finish...

Me: Please finish, I want to hear what word comes next that sounds OK to you.

Wife: You know what I mean

Me: No, I don't, Please tell me what word is coming next...


Nothing, discussion over. I love her to death but her ability to rationalize is beginning to come into question.

[dilane]

No offense intended, but I have a couple of observations:

It seems from that snippet of conversation that you just wanted to make a debating point, not really open up the topic. In my limited experience (33 years of marriage), embarrassing the wife seldom caused her to change her point of view :)

Also, I believe the issue of when to expose one's children to the transworld is something that should be decided by both partners, not dictated by one.

Regards,

Diane

[Anna B]

No offense intended, but I have a couple of observations:

It seems from that snippet of conversation that you just wanted to make a debating point, not really open up the topic. In my limited experience (33 years of marriage), embarrassing the wife seldom caused her to change her point of view :)

Also, I believe the issue of when to expose one's children to the transworld is something that should be decided by both partners, not dictated by one.

Regards,

Diane


Yes I tend to agree.

[Felicity71]

I would guess she believes the children maybe influenced too much at that age. She no doubt believes shes doing the best thing for the children. Smart people do not necessarily have to be tactful people.

[abigailf]

Don't try to rationalize logically with your wife on emotional topics, emotion will always win out.

If you want more acceptance, then Christy will need to win her over emotionally, and that will take lots of time.

[Melody Moore]

I have to agree with Abigail here, trying to dominate or force someone into accepting your point of view
no matter how right or wrong you might be won't win her over, if anything it could cause more division
between you both. The reason is because you are not trying to see her point of view, only your own.

Also I would have been more inclined to discuss her reasoning & to negotiate a more rational approach
that would allow her to see the positive sides of the kids being around other transgendered people. At
the end of the day no matter what you do, you cannot force others to accept your beliefs & ideals.

How you deal with an issue will be completely different to how others will deal with a similar type of issue.

[Jennie1975]

Lol Christy, I have had conversations very similiar to that with my ex wife. I can totally relate.

@ Diane, I agree with your statement as far as raising a child is dependant on agreement between those responsible. Yet I fail to see how not to expose children to the " Transworld", a term I find confusing, when as soon as we turn on the television, read the paper, walk out the door, or do any number of "normal", another term I find confusing, things we have the possiblity to see, speak, or interact with any number of people who could be, are, or will be transgendered.
It is a sad day for our children, their children, or ourselves when we cannot see past our own fears and treat people as people reguardless of their presentation or perceived presentation. When do we as adult roll models show the future generation how people are to be treated if we hide or shelter them from interactions with all the varied individuals that make up humankind.

Ok off my soap box for now, just thought I would pop in and see what my g/f Christy was up too. As always looks like no good! Lmao luv ya Christy.

[andrea69j]

I would be really interested in that next word, too. OK, so homosexual males are OK, because we see them as two men in drab. Homosexual women are OK, because we see them as two women in drab. Drab meaning clothes associated with the perceived gender of the wearer. So what about a homosexual male couple where one was passing as a woman? Or a homosexual female couple were one was passing as a man? Or my favorite hypothetical, a homosexual women dressing as a man but not really attempting to pass? I exclude the homosexual man not quite passing, as that seems to be the line drawn in the sand. How about a heterosexual couple where they pass as the opposite gender? Continue on with the variations.

If I could gather 100 people, would you be able to tell their actual gender? You pass people everyday that are not what they appear to be. Kids are exposed to all kinds of 'worlds', they just don't have the prejudices we do.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

This is not about words...our situations as trans husbands and dads are very complex. It is not all about us, even though it feels like it to us...and transition requires a single mindedness that surely must seem very selfish to others

I have been through it, ended up divorced with teenage daughters and they suffer my transition..they love me, they don't have even a smidgen of a problem with transsexuality,,,the problem is their dad is transsexual..and they don't like the issues I cause for them... The dont like how it impacts them...it makes me very sad every day...this is more likely where your wife was going, she must worry about her kids...

I'm sorry you guys had this run in and I hope you figure it all out in a good way..

[Christy_M]

I think we are still OK but I got flustered by her resonse. I do realize the emotional side wins over the rational. I think what really gets me (and specifically in this discussion) was that earlier in the day my daughter laughed at a picture in her "child's" magazine (Highlights) where there was a man in a dress. I told her that not all men in dresses are funny. She (my daughter) moved on to other things so we never went deeper into that conversation. I brought up this interaction to my wife about how the only models these kids have seen thus far are just comedic interpretations of transgendered folks as if they are meant to be made fun of. I admit I am sensitive to this and know my wife has the kids best intrests in mind but I really feel she needs to get advice from some professionals who deal with children instead of making comments based on her perceived "societal norms." We have previously agreed to this many times over this past week but as new thoughts enter her mind, she becomes more concerned about the impact on our kids.

Thanks for the input from all of you. I know I am not "right" about this stuff but I do know I have plenty of opinions as does my wife. We are still working together so that is a good sign. My OP was more of a "vent" than anything else. Thanks for letting me open up.

[TerryTerri]

Since I don't know enough about you or your wife to actually give 'advice' I'm not directly giving any. But, I can make a suggesion.

As I see it, many of the same issues involved with racial integration from many years ago are very similar to the integration issues of trans folk today. In today's society, being discriminatory against a person because of their race is a generally accepted no no. However, go back in time 20, 30 40 years ago and many of the same problem issues people were concerned about reagarding race are the same basic ones as found today with trans people. Think about it a bit and you may understand what I'm trying to say.

So, perhaps in a tactfull way you may be able to open her eyes about how wrong it is to discriminate against a transgender person because she probably understands how wrong it is to discriminate against a person because of their race. I think the two issues are basically similar. Getting her to see the fears she has are unwarrented, just as the fears people faced with racial intergration some many years ago.

IDK, good luck to you. My kids (ages 6, 9, & 13) have already been exposed to several trans people, although I'm not aware they even realize it. I've had some of my local transgender friends over on several occasions. However, they all pass really well and I'm not sure my kids even realized it. However, it wouldn't have mattered. I would have had them over anyway.

Good Luck to you!

[Beth-Lock]

Threads on Trans Introduction and Young Children
It might be time to go over the threads on introducing the trans phenomenon to young children. Many think it is not a problem, except for the adults involved.
In my case, it has led to a break with my family, my grand neice and grand nephew being the question, so I know how emotional it can get.

[Areyan]

this is a touchy subject indeed and i tend to agree with Kaitlyn about how difficult it may be for our loved ones. even if they can begin to accept the reality of trans people, it can be very hard for our loved ones to accept we are those people! my children are almost in high school and both of them have been brilliant about it, but i have not started medical transition yet. they just know about my identity and call me dad at home. is it weird for them? most likely. perhaps i'm luckier in a way because trans men dun dress up and put makeup on. this could be the point your wife might have been trying to make, to be fair to her. it's not invalid - as the others have pointed out, trans folk still have a LONG way to go to be accepted mainstream. i hope you can be as patient as possible with her, this is hard for our loved ones.

[Stephenie S]

It's always just a problem for the adults. Kids are amazingly accepting of diversity.

I often tell this story about my early childhood. When I was age 4 to 6 we were poor and lived in a black neighborhood in Ohio. I did not see pictures of this period in my life until I was a teenager. I was looking through a family photo album. I remember saying to my mom, "Hey! All these kids are black!"

"Yes", she said, "that's where we lived."

I had not seen this at all at the time. I had NO idea. They were just my friends and playmates. I didn't see color at all.

Kids just don't care. They want to be loved. That's about it.

Stephie

[Kaitlyn Michele]

don't forget though that kids..especially teens are incredibly selfish and totally self serving....having a trans parent causes issues no matter how supportive families are...acceptance in the general world is still marginal for us..and this will impact your children more and more as they grow up..and they may end up feeling differently than when they are 5, 8, or even 12 yrs old...

[Stephenie S]

See? It's the adults, not the kids who have trouble.

S

[pamela_a]

don't forget though that kids..especially teens are incredibly selfish and totally self serving....having a trans parent causes issues no matter how supportive families are...acceptance in the general world is still marginal for us..and this will impact your children more and more as they grow up..and they may end up feeling differently than when they are 5, 8, or even 12 yrs old...

Kaitlyn, while that may be true for some I can speak from experience that's not always what happens. I transitioned during my son's Jr. and Sr. years in high school and our relationship never wavered. Although I've no doubt it's been difficult for him we still are able to talk about nearly anything. He's even allowed me to be Facebook friends and as family I'm Mother.

I believe what's made the biggest difference has been his friends. Our house had become the designated "hang out" house as I started my transition and his friend stayed. As I've transitioned they've been there for both of us. 2 months after I went full time I was widowed, and they were there. I'm fortunate enough to know some of the greatest, most accepting young people (18-21 years old, both boys and girls) on the planet. It doesn't matter who or what I was before; to them I'm Pam now (with correct pronouns) and that's all that matters.

My granddaughter just turned 6 and I'm Nana now, I didn't feel it appropriate to take the title grandma in honor of my wife's passing. She's a headstrong little ball of energy but with my transition from grandpa to Nana nothing has changed between us. My daughter, her husband, and all of their friends have been just as accepting.

Have I been fortunate? Yes, very much so. But I also don't believe it's all that unique. In-spite of them being the next generation, I have a lot of hope for acceptance from future generations.

[Hope]

Personally I would be interested in hearing what your wife was about to say as well... Bigotry is bigotry is bigotry. Discriminating against a person based upon some aspect of their physical appearance is bigotry. Not wanting your children to be around "those sorts of people" because of some irrational fear that they will have a negative impact on them is bigotry.

Sure it is emotional. Fear is an emotion after all. That doesn't make it OK or excusable. Sure parenting decisions should be made by both parents in concert, but she owes you an apology on this one. Though if I were you I wouldn't press for it, or even ask.


We have previously agreed to this many times over this past week but as new thoughts enter her mind, she becomes more concerned about the impact on our kids.

Personally, I have always thought that exposing humans (and despite evidence to the contrary - children ARE humans) to all sorts of people and experiences was a good thing. It is how you expand their horizons and teach them not to be afraid of or discriminate against people who are different from themselves. Unfortunately it seems like you need to teach your wife this lesson first. And perhaps a good number of the members of this forum.

Has it even crossed her mind that exposing your children to some of the many splendored things in this great wonderful world might have a POSITIVE impact on your children? The world is not all suburban beige for a very good reason...

I'm sort of disturbed and disappointed by many of the responses in this thread.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

pam our relationship hasn't wavered...it's just strained recently.hehe...and it's more around my girls wanting things they can't have because of me... i didn't mean to sound as negative as that came off...
You've had really good experiences around work and family, and you deserve credit..so you are doing something right! I've had great experiences with my family most of the time too..i especially hear you that it's quite exciting to have my daughters friends over!!! It's great for kids to have a friend that sees a trans parent and "gets it"..the downside is (and this is what i was saying) ...now my youngest is in 8th grade and she is desperate that no one else know...and it's stressing her out...her friends that do know are now "a risk"

My more concise point is that kids change over time and don't take for granted that they are not going through stuff even in the most supportive environment..
anyway, sometimes i think teenage girls are not humans, they are some other type of being...devoid of logic and empathy...

Hope, I hear you too, but you are talking about a fantasy....trans people are simply not universally accepted...do you have children? it's one thing to say that the world is a wonderful place and to teach kids tolerance and love (and that's what i do!) but they also have to live their own lives, and if the 8th graders find out i am trans and they bully my child then how does it help to tell them of many splendorous things.. and you are right, it's disturbing..but its reality right now in 2011.. and if a mom starts to feel protective of her kids that doesnt mean she's a bigot.....

frankly it disturbs me some times that transsexual husbands don't give their wives or ex wives even MORE leeway in expressing their concerns and fears when children are involved...this stuff matters to OUR kids...

[Sejd]

I agree with Dilane. Where is the listening part of you?

[nini]

pam our relationship hasn't wavered...it's just strained recently.hehe...and it's more around my girls wanting things they can't have because of me... i didn't mean to sound as negative as that came off...
You've had really good experiences around work and family, and you deserve credit..so you are doing something right! I've had great experiences with my family most of the time too..i especially hear you that it's quite exciting to have my daughters friends over!!! It's great for kids to have a friend that sees a trans parent and "gets it"..the downside is (and this is what i was saying) ...now my youngest is in 8th grade and she is desperate that no one else know...and it's stressing her out...her friends that do know are now "a risk"

My more concise point is that kids change over time and don't take for granted that they are not going through stuff even in the most supportive environment..
anyway, sometimes i think teenage girls are not humans, they are some other type of being...devoid of logic and empathy...

Hope, I hear you too, but you are talking about a fantasy....trans people are simply not universally accepted...do you have children? it's one thing to say that the world is a wonderful place and to teach kids tolerance and love (and that's what i do!) but they also have to live their own lives, and if the 8th graders find out i am trans and they bully my child then how does it help to tell them of many splendorous things.. and you are right, it's disturbing..but its reality right now in 2011.. and if a mom starts to feel protective of her kids that doesnt mean she's a bigot.....

frankly it disturbs me some times that transsexual husbands don't give their wives or ex wives even MORE leeway in expressing their concerns and fears when children are involved...this stuff matters to OUR kids...

What a great view and perspective on things, APPLAUSE (I bow for you)

[Hope]

Hope, I hear you too, but you are talking about a fantasy....trans people are simply not universally accepted...do you have children?

No, I am talking about interpretation and teaching the next generation to be better than the one before it. Trans people are not universally accepted. And never will be as long as we teach our children that there is something wrong with us. How can we expect other people to teach THEIR children that there isn't any thing wrong with us when we are not willing to do / believe it ourselves? Fantasy is believing that others will do for you what you don't seem to think is important enough to do for yourself.


it's one thing to say that the world is a wonderful place and to teach kids tolerance and love (and that's what i do!) but they also have to live their own lives, and if the 8th graders find out i am trans and they bully my child then how does it help to tell them of many splendorous things.. and you are right, it's disturbing..but its reality right now in 2011.. and if a mom starts to feel protective of her kids that doesnt mean she's a bigot...

You are right. This mom, and the legions of moms like her aren't bigots because they want to protect their kids. They are bigots because they think there is something wrong with trans people based solely on their status as trans people.

You obviously don't really believe that the world is a many splendored place, or that teaching children to be tolerant of others is important enough to risk something for. You gave that away with the word "but." This isn't about a lack of risk. There is a risk in coddling your kids or protecting them from any and all possible threats too. This is about world view, and about the world view you hand down to your kids. Believe it or not, you teach your kids what you REALLY believe, not what you say you believe... because they watch you and they see what you really value. If you really value love and tolerance then they cannot be some sort of luxury that gets tossed out the window when things get tough - they are the core of what make us who we are and what guides us through the tough times.


frankly it disturbs me some times that transsexual husbands don't give their wives or ex wives even MORE leeway in expressing their concerns and fears when children are involved...this stuff matters to OUR kids...

Yeah. Everyone should be heard. All concerns should be expressed and explored. That doesn't mean that the irrational fears "But something bad might happen!" should be accommodated. That doesn't mean that bigotry should be left un-confronted. This stuff matters to our kids.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i understand your point Hope....you have a good point about "bigots"..a mom is gonna protect her kids whether she is a bigot or not..


But on the kids, i don't agree with you though...you are just talking rhetoric...your world view works very well on a college campus..

It is NOT an irrational fear that "something bad might happen"...you can't just make stuff up...something bad happens quite alot!!!! especially to transgendered people...

you are pushing your point by totally twisting what i said...
i didnt say i coddled kids...i transitioned for crying out loud!, that is not coddling...and i transitioned while they were kids!!!!

This paragraph is condescending and incredibly misleading ....

"You obviously don't really believe that the world is a many splendored place, or that teaching children to be tolerant of others is important enough to risk something for. You gave that away with the word "but." This isn't about a lack of risk. There is a risk in coddling your kids or protecting them from any and all possible threats too. This is about world view, and about the world view you hand down to your kids. Believe it or not, you teach your kids what you REALLY believe, not what you say you believe... because they watch you and they see what you really value. If you really value love and tolerance then they cannot be some sort of luxury that gets tossed out the window when things get tough - they are the core of what make us who we are and what guides us through the tough times."

especially the "Believe it or not...." part....

...do you think when i told my 11 year old daughter that i was a woman that i was just talking? do you think when i forced my children to endure my ffs and srs that i was only talking? do you have any idea about how it must have felt to them to see me after my ffs???do you think when i moved out of the house because my wife didn't want to be part of my transition that i was tossing love out the window as a "luxury"...
what the hell are you even talking about???

it's ok...did you say whether you have kids?

[Hope]

But on the kids, i don't agree with you though...you are just talking rhetoric...your world view works very well on a college campus..

It is NOT an irrational fear that "something bad might happen"...you can't just make stuff up...something bad happens quite alot!!!! especially to transgendered people...

This is exactly my point. You don't really believe that what you are calling "my" world view is legitimate. It's not real, it's just rhetoric. It supposedly only works on a college campus and not in the "real world." Talk about condescending. You obviously don't think that the world is a wonderful place.

Sure, "bad stuff" happens. "Bad stuff" happens if you are a bigot too. "Bad stuff" happens if you never leave your house. Lets remember what we are talking about - we are talking about a mother who is afraid of having trans people around her children - for no reason other than pure bigotry. Pray-tell, what is the "bad stuff" that is going to happen if a child encounters a trans person and learns that trans folks are actual human beings with thoughts and loves and feelings just like everyone else? Do you think the kids are going to catch the gay? Do you think the creepy trannies are going to molest the kids? What is the fear that justifies this reaction? And WHY is fear allowed to justify anything?

I am starting to wonder if I encountered you in the ladies room, and you were there with your kids, if you would harass me or not. I'm guessing you would.

You know, children aren't born intolerant bigots. To quote Rodgers And Hammerstein they "must be carefully taught." And this is exactly how we teach them. Teach them that there is something wrong with trans people, you don't have to define what that something wrong actually is - it is better if you keep it undefined - just tell them that "something bad might happen" ("It is NOT an irrational fear" after all) and that they need to be kept away because they are "icky" maybe. They will learn to fear us, and fear leads to hate, and hate leads to "something bad" happening so in the end you will be proven right. They must be carefully taught.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Well you told me! No kids I guess... Lol.

You have absolutely nothing to say that means one thing to a parent. Not one thing....
You also continue to make stuff up about me and what I say...you are the only person talking about icky or creepy trannies..You like to put words in my mouth and then argue against things I didn't say...

I have people over all the time. Lol....
Since you don't really know Anything about kids I'll let you know my kids wouldn't be caught dead in a bathroom with me..intolerant bigots that they are...

[Sophora]

Well you told me! No kids I guess... Lol.

You have absolutely nothing to say that means one thing to a parent. Not one thing....
You also continue to make stuff up about me and what I say...you are the only person talking about icky or creepy trannies..You like to put words in my mouth and then argue against things I didn't say...

I have people over all the time. Lol....
Since you don't really know Anything about kids I'll let you know my kids wouldn't be caught dead in a bathroom with me..intolerant bigots that they are...

I am wondering something. Did something happen to change your daughters opinion I am quoting this:


i especially hear you that it's quite exciting to have my daughters friends over!!! It's great for kids to have a friend that sees a trans parent and "gets it"..the downside is (and this is what i was saying) ...now my youngest is in 8th grade and she is desperate that no one else know...and it's stressing her out...her friends that do know are now "a risk"

My more concise point is that kids change over time and don't take for granted that they are not going through stuff even in the most supportive environment..
anyway, sometimes i think teenage girls are not humans, they are some other type of being...devoid of logic and empathy...

I wondering this as children don't change their opinions that extremely especially when they had positive reinforcement that her friends knew an accepted it. I told a coworker at work on tuesday. She is just graduating high school and is supporting me(as far as going shopping and helping me with my make-up and everything). This is the last age group that I thought would be intolerant of me(ie media and like).

There is definitely something else at work here. Are you sure that her mother isn't getting into her head? I would suggest you sit down with the child and ask for the reason for the about face.

[Aprilrain]

Wow! at that point in the argument my wife and I would just be getting warmed up! What are you guys, mature adults or something? This sounds like potential physical altercation material in my house. I guess thats why I don't live there anymore.
I'm kinda curious what the next word would have been myself. I know I would not have taken it well had I had that conversation with my wife. In fact i had a similar experience only it was after the fact and in my opinion my wife back peddled on what she said and claimed it was not what she meant, however she was unable to explain what she meant without it sounding just like that. So we agreed to drop it.

The other day my 5 year old boy was disgusted with the mens room we were in and asked if i would take him to the girls bathroom next time. lol. then my wife asked if i went in the mens room i said yes she said "weird" I guess I don't have a "boy mode" anymore

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Hope that's kind of my point that i believe you have been mistating and arguing against...

don't assume something "happened" ...my kids are just going through puberty and life...wives go through all kinds of thoughts and perhaps for a period of time they get upset and angry and say things they don't mean...or perhaps they say things that are good barometers of the future of the relationship...

just like we take many years to work this out in our heads..so do THEY!! ...my daughter in 5th grade told a bunch of friends right away..as her social world expands, her world view moves around...she isn't embarrassed by me! she doesn't want to get teased in school...so every day i live my life and demonstrate to her that its gonna be ok...

The OP was about a tough discussion between a husband and wife...i just think we should give kids and wives the wide end of the field, because we are creating an enormous challenge for them