Men Crossdressing vs. Women Crossdressing

[darla_g]

Just an open question: My GG and I were talking and she was wondering why there seems to be so many more men crossdressing vs. women crossdressing.

What are your thoughts on this topic?

and by women crossdressing I am talking about a woman taking on the persona of a man rather than just wearing an article of men's clothing like jeans or a shirt.

[tiffanyjo89]

I think the reason there appears to be more male crossdressers than female crossdressers is because there are a lot more "masculine" women's clothing and accessories than "feminine" male clothing and accessories.

If a girl wants to wear a t-shirt and loose fitting jeans, she's seen as a tomboy and many times the clothes she's wearing were purchased not from the mens/boys department but rather the womens/girls dept. They are just manufactured to look like a boys jean cut or tee. Heck, Levi's has a jean style called "boyfriend" jeans that are women's jeans made to look like they were made for and worn by a guy. I'd say they are a lot more popular than the girlfriend jeans.

[kathie225]

Twenty years ago I had a work associate (female) that dressed completely like a man and would ask me about men's attire. She was in a "same sex" relationship and was very much the "male" partner. Among women in same sex relationships, male attire and corresponding persona are more common. Not too long ago a telephone repair person was at my home. She acted much the same as my work associate did and for the same reason. Most heterosexual couples wouldn't have occasion to encounter many crossdressing GGs because we move in different social circles. Many male crossdressers are hetero and do interact with "mainstream" society increasing the chance of detection and interaction. In my almost 70 years I can remember two crossdressing GGs in both attire and persona.

[Debglam]

That is a great question. I really believe in the hormone & receptor/blocker theories regarding transgenderism. Maybe these imbalances tend to create more female brain/male body individuals than the opposite???

[Eryn]

I think that it boils down to this:

Women can wear masculine styles and be socially accepted while keeping their own persona.

The only hope that a man has of being socially accepted while wearing feminine clothing is by being perceived as a woman.

Of course, there are exceptions to any blanket statement, but they are just that, exceptions.

[Wendy_Marie]

I disagree with your statement that there are more MTF than FTM crossdressers...there are far more Genetic females who go around daily dressed in attire more suited to the male gender than there ever were Males in Female clothing.

It has only been since the 1960's that it has become widely accepted for females to be seen in public wearing pants....Due to a huge Double Standard however now it is deemed not only acceptable but normal and even stylish and as such is no longer taboo for females to be "Tomboyish" in nature and dress...just not so when it comes to the opposite end of the spectrum.

[darla_g]

Ok she finds this interesting, but notes that many men CDs frequently prosthetic breasts etc. and may tuck and so forth. But when women crossdress do they wear a fake phallus or is all about the clothing and shoes?

[Eryn]

I disagree with your statement that there are more MTF than FTM crossdressers...there are far more Genetic females who go around daily dressed in attire more suited to the male gender than there ever were Males in Female clothing.

It's probably too late, but before you're nailed to the cross by some of our members for your statement I'll point out that virtually all of the masculine attire worn by women was redesigned to fit them and sold in the women's department. They also don't have the desire to pass as men since it is socially acceptable for women to wear masculine styles.

[ReineD]

Whatever I think is nothing more than an opinion, since I haven't spent a lot of time researching it.

But, there are people who have considered the issue. Matt Kailey, a transman, is an award-winning author, blogger, and community leader, as well as a nationally recognized speaker and trainer on transgender issues.

About Matt: http://tranifesto.com/about-matt-kailey/

Here are Matt's thoughts on why it is perceived there are more transwomen than transmen:

Part 1: http://www.examiner.com/transgender-transsexual-issues-in-national/transgender-transsexual-issues-101-are-there-more-trans-women-than-trans-men-part-one

Part 2: http://www.examiner.com/transgender-transsexual-issues-in-national/transgender-transsexual-issues-101-are-there-more-trans-women-than-trans-men-part-two

There's a lot more to it than a genetic female's ability to wear pants more easily than a genetic male can wear skirts.

As to why there are fewer genetic females who crossdress than genetic males, I believe it is because females are generally not as sexually driven as males. Somehow I just can't picture a woman becoming sexually excited over wearing male briefs. (Generally speaking).

[nvlady]

Crossdressing for me is all about the forbidden fruit (boys don't wear skirts, boys don't wear makeup).
If a GG wears jeans or a mans shirt, nobody thinks anything of it, so there is no forbidden fruit aspect.
If society completely accepted me wearing dresses and makeup it would take the fun out of it and I wouldn't want to do it anymore.

[darla_g]

Thank you Reine that goes to the essence of what she was asking.

[Intertwined]

I think the reason there appears to be more male crossdressers than female crossdressers is because there are a lot more "masculine" women's clothing and accessories than "feminine" male clothing and accessories.

If a girl wants to wear a t-shirt and loose fitting jeans, she's seen as a tomboy and many times the clothes she's wearing were purchased not from the mens/boys department but rather the womens/girls dept. They are just manufactured to look like a boys jean cut or tee. Heck, Levi's has a jean style called "boyfriend" jeans that are women's jeans made to look like they were made for and worn by a guy. I'd say they are a lot more popular than the girlfriend jeans.

I BIG TIME Agree with this idea:thumbup:, IF, there were more feminine Male clothing out there, I would not need womens clothing at all. Pinks / pastels, lace, ruffles, " Cut " for a mans shape, " NOT " trying to immitate the female form, I would be SO THERE...! :lovestruck:


I think that it boils down to this:

Women can wear masculine styles and be socially accepted while keeping their own persona.

The only hope that a man has of being socially accepted while wearing feminine clothing is by being perceived as a woman.

Of course, there are exceptions to any blanket statement, but they are just that, exceptions.

Sorry, I have to dissagree here:naughty, I am one of the exceptions, as I said earlier, I dress 50/50, sure, I get some strange looks, even some disgusted looks sometimes, but, usually I get questions or compliments on what I am wearing.

I was nominated for Employee of the year this year, tonight was the ceremony, I went in a Man's shirt and Tie, knee length pencil skirt, tights and high heels, and at the reception afterwards, I had more people visiting with me, than the people that won Employee of the year.

[Eryn]

Sorry, I have to dissagree here:naughty, I am one of the exceptions...

Since you acknowledge that you are one of the exceptions, you seem to be agreeing! :)

(sorry, just having some semantic fun...)

[VioletJourney]

I think it all comes down to the fact that for centuries women were seen as "less" than men. So a woman presenting as a man can be socially perceived as empowerment, while men presenting as women seems wrong because it seems like a desire to be a "lesser" being. Of course, with feminism and everything that's not true anymore, but it takes a while for society to readjust.

[Sue101]

The reason why women crossdressers are so rare is not just because tomboy behavior and angrogynous looks are now mainstream allowing women from an early age to naturally express their masculine side, it is also because the psychological conditions that create crossdressing behavior rarely exist for girls.

Girls grow up without having to alter their personalities to suit their gender unlike boys who have to do 180 degree turnaround to convert themselves from sweet sensitive boys into agressive competitive men. Boys are forced to reject anything feminine. These differing conditions mean girls never need to develop a coping mechanism to deal with gender issues.

[2SpeedTranny]

Women can wear masculine styles and be socially accepted while keeping their own persona.

The only hope that a man has of being socially accepted while wearing feminine clothing is by being perceived as a woman.


I'll beg to disagree.

I dress like a girl. Lots. Yet none of my friends or acquaintances think of me as anything other than a guy in drag.

[darla_g]

It would be interesting to get a transmen opinion in here.

[Loni]

as for women "trying to be a guy" i do not go into the areas of were a woman wants/needs to be a guy. aka the gay districts. but i have seen a number of them out and about in main stream. and society does not care. no smug looks no talking behind there backs. that kind of thing. but if a guy try's to be a girl for a time he gets the "cold shoulder" deal.
the "norms" in our society are were a woman/girl can dress as a guy and no problem, but a guy can not even dress less then full on guy mode.
some time back i was in a 4X4 club and a lesbian couple joined up with no problem, but if i showed up dressed less then all male (as in tight shorts, skirt, fluffy top etc.) i would have been insulted and kicked out.
so as a society we do not mind a woman try's looking/trying to be a man she just blends in and nothing happens. but if a man even thinks to be a girl ..ouch.

.

[Pythos]

I'm going to add my 02. cents.

I truly think that if men were able to do as Rye of the dead, and myself aspire to do, which is openly wear skirts AS MEN, no tucking, no breastforms, but with makeup and certain hair styles, then I know I would most likely not have tried breast forms and tucking. The only reason why I try to fully pass (mind you, I could wear the outfit, hair and makeup of my last pic set, and not tuck, or wear breast forms, just lower the belt to both reduce the waist cinching, and obscuring certain features. I would love to wear that style, and present andrrogynous. But and this is the important thing, the general public has a HUGE problem with men looking or dressing even slightly femininely. I cannot wear one of my skirts to work, whereas a women can choose between skirts, shorts, jeans, slacks, dress and so on. Women can freely choose their hair color, hair style, hair length, whereas a guy is very limited in hair length and color.

If I were to change my hair color from this off red I naturally have, to black, I kid you not, my sanity would be questioned in my preferred field of work. The same would not be true of a woman. Hair length in my field is expected to be short crop, if not military styled, when it comes to men. It is ludicrous.

I have been breaking barriers at my computer job though, I have posted the styles I wear there, and many here have said they look good, even the skirted one, but let me be clear, there are people that look at me as if I am some kind of creature in a zoo. Not many mind you.

I have faced barrages here for saying this, but I do think the ratio of crossdressing males and crossdressing females would be far wider if men wearing skirts, along with the other fashion and style latitude women have were the norm.

Unfortunately they are not.

Oh: I also find that more often than not it is a woman that is supporting these double standards. Or at least it seems that way to me.

[Lorileah]

I think you might be surprised just how many women are crossdressing right before your eyes. They, unlike us, have the ability to go undetected and they don't have the fears males have about perception.

For all the exclamations here that it is non-sexual, most MtF crossdressers have a sexual component at least early on. It is a male thing where sexual feelings are very strong early on in life. I do believe that most here outgrow the sexual "need" as they age and we become as we say just men who prefer the clothes.

I personally know three women who are crossdressers in the way men on these boards are. They wear men's underwear daily as underwear and not fashion. Two wear tighty whities as their sole undergarment. Both are small enough breasted to not always have to wear a bra. They often act as we expect men to act with sexual innuendos and rough speech. They have been known to sexually aggressive (maybe I notice this because they have done this toward me). The third wears boxers exclusively as her lower undergarment. They, like us, claim comfort.

I also think that FtM crossdressers have a different mindset on facial looks. They can and do just go without make up (or minimal). They can wear their hair shorter or even shave the head. They can purchase and wear men's clothing in smaller sizes and go un-noticed (no one looks to see if the buttons go one way or the other).

In the MtF side so many have the idea that the clothing and the make-up are inherent to the role. So many here say they want to blend. On the FtM crossdresser side blending is virtually a non-issue unless they desire facial hair or they are well endowed but even then the use of minimizer bras can help. No one looks to see if the legs are smooth or not. And women who don't shave their legs are not questioned but often thought of as hippy or bohemian.

Why don't you see as many FtM "crossdresser" (and I am excluding transsexuals here because they are truly men in the wrong shell) it is because they don't make as big a ruckus as the MtF crossdresser does. They don't worry what the neighbors think. They don't go out looking for sexual encounters. They don't flaunt it or make a fuss about how they are abused by society. They are there, maybe not as many as the MtF side but they are there and YOU just don't see it because they don't look like scared rabbits, or they don't dress as "Little Lord Fauntleroy", or they don't broadcast to the world what kind of underwear they are wearing. They just go about their business as usual. 50 years ago they go the same taunting we get now. They were considered odd or sexual deviants when they wore male clothing but they handled it differently than the men here do. They didn't shrink off to the closet. They embraced the look, called it fashion and their sisters supported them. They claimed comfort and stuck by that instead of caving when they were questioned on it. They claimed equality and held it (as much as it is right now). They didn't care what their friends neighbors or spouses said. They stuck by it, Some may have lost family and spouses over it. I am sure that there were men back then who asked (or assumed) are you gay? Do you want to be a man? Will I lose the power I have in this marriage? But it seems to have worked out. It just shows how women have more stick-to-it-iveness. Men have never had to fight for equality. Yes they fight over other things but equality is different.

[notquitegirl]

I think that it boils down to this:

Women can wear masculine styles and be socially accepted while keeping their own persona.

The only hope that a man has of being socially accepted while wearing feminine clothing is by being perceived as a woman.

Of course, there are exceptions to any blanket statement, but they are just that, exceptions.

I don't think this is true as a blanket statement. I think the perception that it's true makes it true for many people, but my experience tells me that I have little problem wearing skirts and dresses as a man.

[Sue101]

I don't think this is true as a blanket statement. I think the perception that it's true makes it true for many people, but my experience tells me that I have little problem wearing skirts and dresses as a man.

I think you are confusing two situations. Society tolerates individual expression which means you can safely walk around in public and talk to strangers. Social acceptance means nobody bats an eyelid over your presentation including family, friends and your employer. That is clearly not true as witnessed by the fact that men in skirts is a very rare sight.

Men in skirts are not socially accepted but society will tolerate public displays.

[ReineD]

For those of you who do not have the time to read the excellent piece written by transman Matt Kailey (see post #9 above), I've taken the liberty to extract the highlights:

Some reasons transmen are statistically underrepresented are:

1. Indeed, because it is true that it is easier for natal women to adopt male clothing and male gender roles, transmen may be able to live as men or with a masculine gender expression without medical or psychological intervention, more easily than trans women. Thus, they aren't counted in the statistics.

2. Natal women still earn less in our economy than natal men so they may also lack the financial resources for medical or psychological intervention.

3. FtM genital surgery is more expensive and expansive than MtF genital surgery, so fewer FtMs seek it.

Some reasons transmen are less visible are:

4. Testosterone is a more powerful hormone than estrogen, thus even after HRT it is easier to distinguish MtFs than FtMs.

5. Even in our generation, many trans men were socialized as females to not speak out, not demand, not make trouble, which can translate to a lack of voice and visibility in society.

6. Possibly because of the reason above, there have not been as many transmen role models as there have been for transwomen.


So ... (this is me writing again), there is much more to it than the fact that it is easier or more acceptable for women to be masculine than it is for men to be feminine.

[Alice Torn]

Just look at the most recent Oscar show. Ann Hathaway is dressed in a tux, when the male co-host waddles out in a dress, and is laughed at. Very telling.

Society has changes quite a bit, since i was a kid. No way would Ellen be allowed to have a show, then! If a MtF was to try to have a national variety show, on the big networks, I don't think society would be ready for that. But, Ellen is almost worshipped!

[kendra_gurl]

It all starts at a very early age. Both male and females who wish to express there shared gender. I'm 60 so when I was in grade school girls never ever wore jeans. It was just not accepted. What makes it easier now for females is their acceptance by sociaty from that Quote "Tomboy" lable. Some girls want to be a cheerleader while others want to be in sports. Softball Soccer Basketball all require a degree of abandoning the typical feminine behaviour for a more rugged agressive one. How many female coaches of female athletics appear to be "feminine" in their everyday dress and behaivour. Hetrosexual or gay or lesbian so many times has nothing to do with a female just not needing to express her feminity all the time. Same as they don't always need to express their masculinity all the time either. Sociaty and especially men will even accept most women presenting as a male as just one of the guys after they get to know them. Might be different for some obvious butch lesbians but most men don't have a problem with a female who is not feminine in look and actions. I just attended one of my grandaughters highschool graduation. and I have to say that even from a distance and covered with a cap and gown it was still very easy to know if it was a male or female walking onto the stage.

As far as it being a sexually exciting thing to pose as a man to them I don't have a clue but I would guess not. Nothing sexy about boxers or briefs for me but then most women don't see it all that sexy to wear matching bra and panties everyday either. Penis envy? I know it exist but by what percentage I have no clue.
Lets all face the fact that its a lot easier to jump out of bed throw on a pair of jeans and a shirt, run a comb thru our hair if we still have any and head out the door than it is to look our feminine best so why should women not want to be able to do the same thing.

Females truly have the best of both worlds right in their closets with the ability to change at will how they present without all the guilt and emotions crossdressing males must endure

[ikthys]

There certainly is a difference between a woman wearing a wide array of styles (including anything available for men whether cut for a woman or not) and a woman intentionally trying to portray a man. I think there are a good number of the latter, though not as many as the other way around. The issue of women having more available to them is a huge factor, but not because it eliminates the need so much as it removes the possibility of the powerful identification a man can feel when wearing items that are "off limits" except to the opposite gender (like panties, heels, hose, dress, etc.). There is simply no good comparison that could generate the same psychic senstation for a woman. However, I think the more important issue is the rigidity and narrowness of the gender role for men in western culture when compared to that of women. This makes men all the more predisposed to wanted to have such a "crossing" sensation in the first place (like crossing a bridge out of bondage). As for body form, I think it is mostly a non-issue because, whereas breasts compose a profound element of the look of a woman, a penis does not do the same for a man (it is largely hidden in our clothes). Similarly, whereas a penis destroys a female look (hence tucking), breasts generally would not do the same to a male look. The only real issue for a male look might be facial hair, but most men don't keep theirs and, practically speaking, in the end only a small percentage of FTM cders would end up pursuing this anyway, making their numbers that much smaller.

[Eryn]

So ... (this is me writing again), there is much more to it than the fact that it is easier or more acceptable for women to be masculine than it is for men to be feminine.

I agree with you for the most part, Reine, but there must be a good reason why Matt Kailey made the easier acceptance of masculine traits in females #1 on his list.

To Intertwined, 2SpeedTranny, and notquitegirl, I interpret "accepted by society" as meaning able to function normally in all situations. To explore this concept, consider a male donning a floral dress and walking into a masculine environment such as a bar with Harley-Davidsons parked in front. Unless he happened to be the size of Mongo he wouldn't last long. Now consider a woman donning a typical male outfit of leather jacket, jeans, and boots going into a feminine environment such as a beauty parlor. She might be considered "a bit edgy" but she certainly wouldn't be ostracized.

In short, though men may be tolerated while wearing feminine styles, they are far from being accepted by society in general.

[sherib]

Quite a few women dress in men clothes but they still look and act as women. Some used men's clothes to do work outside because men's clothes are more confortable for work, some for comfort because mens clothing is more loose than womens clothes. That's not including trans women, they dress for other reasons. Few women want to look like the average fat american male. If women's body looked like most men's, I don't think I would be a crossdressers.

[Jilmac]

Perhaps it's the old female perception that all men are pigs. Why would a woman want to emulate something they find so disgusting?

[LilSissyStevie]

I don't think any of Matt Kailey's points explain the huge disparity between the prevalence of MTFs over FTMs but I don't have any better explanations. How do you think he would explain the apparent fact that there are more transmen than FTM crossdressers given that there are far more MTF crossdressers than transwomen?

[GaleWarning]

Ok she finds this interesting, but notes that many men CDs frequently prosthetic breasts etc. and may tuck and so forth. But when women crossdress do they wear a fake phallus or is all about the clothing and shoes?

I also think that Matt doesn't address the above issues.

[2SpeedTranny]

To Intertwined, 2SpeedTranny, and notquitegirl, I interpret "accepted by society" as meaning able to function normally in all situations. To explore this concept, consider a male donning a floral dress and walking into a masculine environment such as a bar with Harley-Davidsons parked in front. Unless he happened to be the size of Mongo he wouldn't last long.


Wow, talk about bigotry. Do you even know any bikers? I suspect not, or you'd know that a majority of Harley riders now are businessmen, bankers, lawyers, doctors... they buy Harleys and ride to dive bars so they don't feel so much like disconnected suburb dwellers. They're the only people who can afford Harleys, anyway. And if you're talking about the old-fashioned MCs, like Hell's Angels... remember half of them are federal agents anyway.

There may be a few bad apples in every barrel, but hordes of bikers are not out there waiting to squish trannies that happen to wander by. That's the kind of thinking that keeps you a victim.

[Annaliese2010]

A GG woman doesn't desire to mimic assume or otherwise take on the persona of a man because one doesn't normally desire to 'step-down' from the higher to the lower. It goes against the natural grain and the instinct for survival. There is really nothing to be gained, only lost when ones vision now compromise by some narrowing targeted too highly focused tunneling that precludes eyes that sweep the panoramic all encompassing worldview now leaving, too high is the cost. No one trades a $50 for a 20 an upscale home for low scale renting a shiny new car for one with denting peace of mind for angry venting a clear bright day for murky fog nor a princess for a frog.

[ReineD]

Ok she finds this interesting, but notes that many men CDs frequently prosthetic breasts etc. and may tuck and so forth. But when women crossdress do they wear a fake phallus or is all about the clothing and shoes?

That's because there aren't many female born crossdressers! There aren't as many females who consciously attempt to present as males (other than transmen), as there are birth males who wish to present as females.

This is just a pet theory, but I think there might be a correlation between sex drives, tendencies for the adoption of sexual fetish, and a desire to crossdress. Lots of people here say the CDing began as a highly sexual thing during the teenage years, and there are tons of trans porn sites/yahoo groups/chat places/dating sites, not including all the profiles on social networks and image hosting sites that cater to the sexual aspect of the CDing. I just don't think that women are generally wired to get a sexual kick out of the crossdressing like men do, so there's nothing on which to build a crossdressing foundation. If a birth female feels male gendered, then he's a transman and he doesn't crossdress for kicks.

[Fab Karen]

As to why there are fewer genetic females who crossdress than genetic males, I believe it is because females are generally not as sexually driven as males. Somehow I just can't picture a woman becoming sexually excited over wearing male briefs. (Generally speaking).
Many of us aren't doing it for sexual thrills. Let's not continue pushing sterotypes.

[Eryn]

Wow, talk about bigotry. Do you even know any bikers? I suspect not, or you'd know that a majority of Harley riders now are businessmen, bankers, lawyers, doctors... they buy Harleys and ride to dive bars so they don't feel so much like disconnected suburb dwellers.

I've ridden bikes for 35 years and hundreds of thousands of miles. I know about the RUBs, but I was referring to the real thing, such as the Mongols or Pagans.

[ReineD]

Many of us aren't doing it for sexual thrills. Let's not continue pushing sterotypes.

I think this forum is an island, really. We edit the sexual stuff out and members here know the forum's primary purpose is emotional support. The people who stay here don't CD primarily for sexual reasons even if it started that way (or they keep it out of their posts), and I do realize this.

The comment I made above was a description of what I've seen online, and like it or not, there are lots of CDers who do this for kicks. Maybe it's easy to lose sight of this because there is nothing for these CDers in this forum, while there is so much available for them elsewhere. All these other sites do exist.

[TGMarla]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRYBiFjjYOYLJ0e_mVwdbBzRfdl9wwtp G9ApShnS4WGUQgkjksIeghttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQhJtFQSpT20d6LZMnwmvp2k171UglGp YjB6cpr_WQMAxrKpF3LtT8iQ1shttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT9g1fI7Qvxl5fsNQx10bFe8jTjCSRzw 9gc0GP_4Jxh-NfwzlzquXmP7SimGw

Suit and a tie, suit and a tie, suit and a tie, suit and a tie........Boooooorrrrringggg!

Meanwhile, you can look at a thousand dresses, skirts, blouses, etc., and never see the same thing twice. Women's fashions are infinity. Men's fashions, while elegant and good looking, are very constricted. There's very little variety. And while women are allowed pretty much to wear whatever they want to, men are forbidden from wearing things like dresses, high heels, and hosiery. Yet most heterosexual men are very attracted to these very things when they see women wearing them. There are few things that turn a man's attention more than a smartly dressed woman. So it's not much of a stretch for his curiosity to prevail, and he'll try that hosiery or that dress on himself. And as most crossdressers will attest, once you try on that hosiery, you're often hooked.

That's reason one.

Now, it's been mentioned that most MtF crossdressers aren't in it just for the clothes. They do the wigs, the breasts, tucking (some of us), and so on and so forth. Well, that's true. I admit that I'm in it for way more than the clothes, but the clothes are a real big part of it. I like "having" breasts. It just feels right. And although it's true that breasts do make the clothes look better, for me it goes deeper than that. As for the hair, all guys are societally conditioned to wear their hair short, while women get the luxury of wearing their hair in any way the want to. Furthermore, our hair tends to fall out after a time, and to many of us, that's tragic. Wigs give us a nice head of hair, and the ability to wear it long and in any style we want to. When it comes to hair, you girls don't know how good you have it. You may like your hair, but you take it for granted to some extent.

That's reason two.

I don't much buy into that social standard thing, where men are stepping down from an elevated social level when they crossdress. That may have been true at one time, but I think that time has passed. I do think that a lot of crossdressing, if not sexually driven, at least started out that way. It becomes a sexual behavior, and that's something that gets ingrained into your blueprints. So even after the sexual excitement of it abates, it still feels emotionally stimulating to dress up. And since men are far more sexually motivated than are women, generally speaking, and since our modern media exploits women to such a degree physically, there is a whole lot more motivation for men to experiment with crossdressing than there is for women. Also, I think more MtF crossdressers are sexually motivated than will admit to it.

That's reason three.

I'm sure there are more reasons than this, but there are three good reasons to start with.

[Emma England]

I certainly don't get any sexual feelings when I dress.

I'm lucky in that my mother has blessed me with thick hair. I have grown it to just below my shoulders - all natural.
Why should I spoil it by cropping it short?

The previous post mentioned a suit and tie is boring. Isn't a skirt suit just as boring?

[abbykins]

I think this forum is an island, really. We edit the sexual stuff out and members here know the forum's primary purpose is emotional support. The people who stay here don't CD primarily for sexual reasons even if it started that way (or they keep it out of their posts), and I do realize this.

The comment I made above was a description of what I've seen online, and like it or not, there are lots of CDers who do this for kicks. Maybe it's easy to lose sight of this because there is nothing for these CDers in this forum, while there is so much available for them elsewhere. All these other sites do exist.

I think that's true, Reine, and in that case, it's useful to treat those groups separately in discussing this. It's been said that more men CD because there is a sexual component; that's true if we lump the sexual and non-sexual CDers together. But what if we compare the non-sexual MtF and FtM CDers? I imagine these groups are much more similar in size.

As a non-sexual CDer, I'm only interested in contrasting the non-sexual CDers. I read the whole thread (thanks everyone for your insights) and I think we should differentiate between sexual and non-sexual CDing. The original poster, Darla, asked why there were so many more male CDers. Taken out of context, the answer is that many men do it for sexual kicks. However, Darla also specified: "and by women crossdressing I am talking about a woman taking on the persona of a man". Men CDing for sexual kicks, the men on 'other' sites, aren't taking on the persona of a woman.

[Samantha B L]

I think you might be surprised just how many women are crossdressing right before your eyes. They, unlike us, have the ability to go undetected and they don't have the fears males have about perception.

For all the exclamations here that it is non-sexual, most MtF crossdressers have a sexual component at least early on. It is a male thing where sexual feelings are very strong early on in life. I do believe that most here outgrow the sexual "need" as they age and we become as we say just men who prefer the clothes.

I personally know three women who are crossdressers in the way men on these boards are. They wear men's underwear daily as underwear and not fashion. Two wear tighty whities as their sole undergarment. Both are small enough breasted to not always have to wear a bra. They often act as we expect men to act with sexual innuendos and rough speech. They have been known to sexually aggressive (maybe I notice this because they have done this toward me). The third wears boxers exclusively as her lower undergarment. They, like us, claim comfort.

I also think that FtM crossdressers have a different mindset on facial looks. They can and do just go without make up (or minimal). They can wear their hair shorter or even shave the head. They can purchase and wear men's clothing in smaller sizes and go un-noticed (no one looks to see if the buttons go one way or the other).

In the MtF side so many have the idea that the clothing and the make-up are inherent to the role. So many here say they want to blend. On the FtM crossdresser side blending is virtually a non-issue unless they desire facial hair or they are well endowed but even then the use of minimizer bras can help. No one looks to see if the legs are smooth or not. And women who don't shave their legs are not questioned but often thought of as hippy or bohemian.

Why don't you see as many FtM "crossdresser" (and I am excluding transsexuals here because they are truly men in the wrong shell) it is because they don't make as big a ruckus as the MtF crossdresser does. They don't worry what the neighbors think. They don't go out looking for sexual encounters. They don't flaunt it or make a fuss about how they are abused by society. They are there, maybe not as many as the MtF side but they are there and YOU just don't see it because they don't look like scared rabbits, or they don't dress as "Little Lord Fauntleroy", or they don't broadcast to the world what kind of underwear they are wearing. They just go about their business as usual. 50 years ago they go the same taunting we get now. They were considered odd or sexual deviants when they wore male clothing but they handled it differently than the men here do. They didn't shrink off to the closet. They embraced the look, called it fashion and their sisters supported them. They claimed comfort and stuck by that instead of caving when they were questioned on it. They claimed equality and held it (as much as it is right now). They didn't care what their friends neighbors or spouses said. They stuck by it, Some may have lost family and spouses over it. I am sure that there were men back then who asked (or assumed) are you gay? Do you want to be a man? Will I lose the power I have in this marriage? But it seems to have worked out. It just shows how women have more stick-to-it-iveness. Men have never had to fight for equality. Yes they fight over other things but equality is different.

I think f to m's should be aknowledged more. I've seen literature which says there are as many of them out there as m to f's. My first good freind in the LGBT community after high school was a woman with pronounced female to male tendencies. She lit my cigarettes for me and held the door for me! And too,I'm doing this(crossdressing) for fun and pleasure primarily. You don't owe anybody any explanations if it's sexual or not(which it isn't for everybody anyway)it's just that it's something I enjoy tremendously. And I think there are inherited factors which are hormonal and neurological all at once. I have kind of a"sissy"side to my personality which just seemed to be there ever since I could remember. And as Lori points out,things aren't easy for the m to f's. In fact they have actually a much more difficult uphill climb. People sometimes resent them for their wanting to take on a manly role.

[Sue101]

The comment I made above was a description of what I've seen online, and like it or not, there are lots of CDers who do this for kicks. Maybe it's easy to lose sight of this because there is nothing for these CDers in this forum, while there is so much available for them elsewhere. All these other sites do exist.

Very true. It is not stereotyping when the sexual kicks crossdressers get is clearly the dominant behavior in the overall community.

But I think you are making a serious mistake in this analysis because most crossdressers develop their habit years before puberty arrives. So while sexuality often becomes all consuming and ends up defining crossdressing for many, it is not the original cause.

While transsexuality is about gender identity, crossdressing is about gender roles. Essentially it is about boys feeling uncomfortable about certain aspects of the adult male role in society and in personal relationships and seeking refuge by creating a female personality within himself to escape to in his fantasies which later on he recreates in real life by crossdressing. Boys are trying to evade aggressive and competitive traits that society tells them they must develop to succeed.

It is mostly boys with quiet, sensitive, introspective personalities who develop the notion that being a girl is a less stressful, safer, more comfortable, more fun way to live life. This makes boys secretly rebel against masculine indoctrination although they play along sufficiently well to fool people that they are becoming a fully fledged "real" man when it is just a facade from the start.

So the reason why female crossdressers are so rare is that female upbringing does not create the same pressures which makes girls want create a male alter ego to escape to. Women can be tomboys and access male roles and responsibilities if they wish while still maintaining a positive female gender role. Girls are not required to make a 180 degree turnaround in the gender roles instead adulthood is an extension of childhood gender.

[ReineD]

The original poster, Darla, asked why there were so many more male CDers. Taken out of context, the answer is that many men do it for sexual kicks. However, Darla also specified: "and by women crossdressing I am talking about a woman taking on the persona of a man".

This is true, but then Darla came in later and specified, why are there more males who wish to wear forms when they crossdress than there are crossdressing females who try to present as men when they wear pants, to the point of packing (and I'm adding, gluing on facial hair)? I think that Darla was saying it is more than preferring one style of clothing over another.

My answer is still the same, keeping in mind it is strictly my opinion, that there are more CDers whose foundation or basis for starting was sexual. Female breasts, hips, and legs are sexual objects for men. The proof of this is in the existence of a vast porn industry that is aimed at men. And I believe the brain becomes indelibly rewired when strong sexual connections are made during the teenage years and even if over time the sex drive or motive diminishes, there remains a very pleasant association with wishing to adopt a femme persona. I'm not saying this is true for everyone who puts on opposite gender clothing. It is certainly not true for transsexuals. But it is not too much of a stretch for me to believe that a strong sexual foundation can lead to, or help, a lifetime of enjoying the CDing, and that's not mentioning all of the CDers for whom the sexual aspect is still primary.



But I think you are making a serious mistake in this analysis because most crossdressers develop their habit years before puberty arrives. So while sexuality often becomes all consuming and ends up defining crossdressing for many, it is not the original cause.

There seems to be a divisive starting age. There are many TGs who begin before puberty at around age 3-5. There are, however, many more who begin at puberty, and even a few who begin in adulthood. I can't remember where I've read this, but at one point it was suggested that the earlier age would indicate a transsexual nature (even if it never reaches the point of getting SRS) while the later age is more indicative of crossdressing. Of course, if this is true it is not cast in stone and there would still be exceptions.



While transsexuality is about gender identity, crossdressing is about gender roles. Essentially it is about boys feeling uncomfortable about certain aspects of the adult male role in society and in personal relationships and seeking refuge by creating a female personality within himself to escape to in his fantasies which later on he recreates in real life by crossdressing. Boys are trying to evade aggressive and competitive traits that society tells them they must develop to succeed.

It is mostly boys with quiet, sensitive, introspective personalities who develop the notion that being a girl is a less stressful, safer, more comfortable, more fun way to live life. This makes boys secretly rebel against masculine indoctrination although they play along sufficiently well to fool people that they are becoming a fully fledged "real" man when it is just a facade from the start.

So the reason why female crossdressers are so rare is that female upbringing does not create the same pressures which makes girls want create a male alter ego to escape to. Women can be tomboys and access male roles and responsibilities if they wish while still maintaining a positive female gender role. Girls are not required to make a 180 degree turnaround in the gender roles instead adulthood is an extension of childhood gender.

Those are great points, thanks for bringing them up. :hugs: I'll need to take the time to consider all of this.

There certainly are no easy answers since motives for CDing are tied to so many physical, psychological, and social variables. It is no wonder so many members here hate to define it for themselves! :p

I do wish there was more money available for research.

[abbykins]

I really like the thoughts in your post, Reine. I agree with you that a sexual foundation can lead to even non-sexual CDers. Given that, I'm only curious whether the numbers (FtM vs MtF) and methods (forms vs packing) match more closely, if CDers who started with a sexual basis are excluded. If only there were money for a study...

Off subject, I was just thinking about whether it would be right to wear forms if I was dressed but in male mode. I decided yes, because it's part of a feminine look and clothes are designed around having breasts.

[Sue101]

There seems to be a divisive starting age. There are many TGs who begin before puberty at around age 3-5. There are, however, many more who begin at puberty, and even a few who begin in adulthood. I can't remember where I've read this, but at one point it was suggested that the earlier age would indicate a transsexual nature (even if it never reaches the point of getting SRS) while the later age is more indicative of crossdressing. Of course, if this is true it is not cast in stone and there would still be exceptions.
Yes the ages differ but the numbers I have seen indicate most are pre-puberty. But even those who start at puberty or later in adulthood, it still is not initially driven by sexuality. Crossdressing does not begin with a boy or man picking up a piece of female clothing and thinking to himself that this is something he can use to get off on. Crossdressing is not a fetish, it is something quite different even though psychologists use the term fetishist, they are off-target.

There is a psychological attraction to the clothes that initially draws the man to pick them up and wear them in the first place. It is about imparting the feminine attribute the clothes represent onto himself which then changes how he thinks of himself and opens up the flood gates to feelings he cannot express as a man. The clothes - usually underwear - also have strong sexual connatations and so the experience quickly devolves into autoeroticism.

The sexual angle is not the first phase in the development of crosdressing behavior, there is a precursor need to connect with femininity which triggers the attratction and of course some don't go down the sexual route which I reckon usually indicates genuine transgederism (half male/female) in contrast to the more typical crossdresser's rebellion against masculine pressures via fantasizing which easily converts into autoeroticism. In time when the sexual drive diminishes the origins often reappear with a greater emphasis on culturing feelings and exploring female gender roles.

[ReineD]

Thanks Sue! Can you post a link to the studies you've read about the ages? I'd love to read them too.

[Sue101]

Reine

Mostly from ad hoc polls I have seen in many forums. Not scientific but the results are always the same. Here is one -

Age First Cross Dressed

Age Transvestites
(n = 63)
0- 10 73%
11-15 19%
16-20 2%
20-29 5%
50-59 2%


from http://www.susans.org/reference/comparst.html

[ReineD]

I googled it and interestingly enough, google returned a slew of threads here from across the years that discuss onset age. I don't have the time now to read them all, but one of them was pretty evenly mixed between early and later onset age. If you feel energetic, you might want to go through them all, do a physical count, and post the results here along with the links? :) I think this would be hugely useful to this conversation.

Unfortunately the clinical studies I find after a quick search (I don't have hours to devote to this right now), focus primarily on the age of onset of GID (as measured among transsexuals) and not of crossdressers, since I gather that most of the studies are done at GID clinics, and crossdressers do not seek help for GID. Also, they correlate age of onset with other things such as homosexuality. The other issue is that some of the studies are so small; one of them had a sample of only 28. The biggest issue of all is that I can't get past the abstracts. I'd have to get into a university journal library.

I wouldn't take the resource from susans.org as being definitive though, in light of the paucity of data available for the crossdressing segment that does not suffer from GID.

[Lorileah]

I am going to make up a statistic here, you can't see the bulge in men in everyday clothes 99% of the time and especially with the newer pants so packing isn't a huge issue in FtM. OTH most women have breasts that are visible (and are an integral part of appearance). I still hold that the reason you don't see as many FtM is that they don't feel the need to advertize to everyone. Dressing won't get them the money men make or the power men in business have, so why make your gender a bigger issue? And if you look at men in power, facial hair is not very common so pasting a beard on doesn't need to be a integral part of the scheme either. There are many stories of women who passed as men in war and even in the frontier. One was even a pirate so they are out there, they just are really good at having their own lives

[notquitegirl]

To Intertwined, 2SpeedTranny, and notquitegirl, I interpret "accepted by society" as meaning able to function normally in all situations. To explore this concept, consider a male donning a floral dress and walking into a masculine environment such as a bar with Harley-Davidsons parked in front. Unless he happened to be the size of Mongo he wouldn't last long. Now consider a woman donning a typical male outfit of leather jacket, jeans, and boots going into a feminine environment such as a beauty parlor. She might be considered "a bit edgy" but she certainly wouldn't be ostracized.

I used to think this is true, but the more time I spend out, the less I agree with it. I really think the vast majority of what we collectively perceive as social pressure is internalized shame, and if we let go of that we see most people are far too busy in their own heads to care about us or what we're doing.