Kicking at a dead horse

[Pythos]

I am honestly surprised how this statement seems to get applied to what for all intents and purposes is a very viable argument.

Why is the statement that men being blocked from wearing skirts AS MEN, while women can wear whatever style pants they wish is unfair, is considered an argument that is "kicking at a dead horse"?

I don't understand this. Is this thought prevalent because too many have given up?

Now, I am not talking about the argument that Full fem looking cds being blocked but women wearing pants are not being a moot argument, cause as sad as it it, it is in fact a dead argument. Women do not try to emulate men (though often times they do) when they wear pants.

But as I have stated, as far as I am concerned I am doing full on CDing when I put on breast forms, and tuck. Otherwise I am going either male or androgynous (and androgyny is a whole other can of worms...yet another thing women can do with little problems but a male...eh, not so much)

I have presented some male in skirts look here that are in no way tying to be anything BUT male. Turkey Jive on Rye does likewise.

The argument that it is not fair that women can wear pants but men cannot wear skirts because a very valid argument when taken in the context of men wearing skirts as men as demonstrated by the referred to pics.

I also really really really dislike the idea that men should be limited to kilts. NO WAY. Why is that in anyway fair when women can wear 100s of styles of pants, ranging from super spandex, to ultra baggy denim?

[RenneB]

I'm thinkin' it's just a culture thing. Ya know there are some religions here in the US that require all women and girls to wear dresses. We have a family just down the street. With all the neighborhood kids wearing jeans this group stands out a bit but they appear normal and play with the other kids just fine.

I'm thinkin' in time....say a hundred years or so.... it will be a good time to be a CD out in public as something has got to change.

Renne.....

[Kaitlyn Michele]

There is such an obvious difference between what most people think of cd'ing vs. men that would want to wear skirts "just because" that i believe it's you that is kicking the dead horse..

if you are truly just a guy that likes skirts as fashion, then wear them..outside of traditional crossdressing, very few guys want to wear skirts...i'm not sure what you are going on about.. do you think crossdressers somehow don't support men that just want to wear skirts?..

btw...my best friend doesnt tuck, doesnt wear breast forms but does completely dress and tries to blend in as a female..

[Pythos]

Kaitlyn, you missed the point of my post entirely.

Did you not see I was not refering to the full on cding?

Did you not see how at least to me, men CANNOT openly wear skirts as men and not face ridicule, laughter and a trip to the house of pain.

Recall, this is one of my posts, and reading it thoroughly may be required do to my horrible grammar.

[Sue101]

I doubt you will ever get a reasoned discussion on this because the issue has generated two opposing camps and a habit of putting fingers in ears and just repeating the prescribed mantra over and over again. I also have pointed out that when you compare like with like and use crossdressers who are not emulating women then the parrallel is undeniable which probably explains why nobody ever responds to the point.

In many ways it is a great example of the cold war that exists between those who want all the issues examined with complete honesty even if it makes some folks uncomfortable and those who wish to uphold conventions about normality Or maybe some people just are not interested in thinking too deeply and side with the conventional wisdom.

I actually think this is a very important issue to discuss because it places crossdressing into a social context rather than the current view that crossdressing is a separate deviant behavior that is not shared by others.

[JohnH]

Pythos,

Thanks for expressing my thoughts about how society disapproves of men wearing skirts or dresses AS men. I guess it must be this fragile "masculine anxiety" of how a man must be "manly"

In the past of course women who wore pants were really looked down on, even more than what I encounter when I wear a denim skirt with otherwise masculine clothing. At least I don't risk arrest the same way as women risked when they wore pants in the 1800's.

John

[Emma England]

It is a dead horse, as there is no problem with men wearing skirts.

I have done so often in summer when the weather is warm.

Look at my signature below - it is appropriate!

The only problem is in men's own heads.

[Sue101]

It is a dead horse, as there is no problem with men wearing skirts. So men in skirts can expect no problems from their SOs, family or their employer?

That horse seems very much alive and kicking to me

[Nigella]

Why bother trying to flog this horse then. We are not the community who "frown upon men wearing skirts". Why try preach the rights and wrongs here, the only way to get your message to those who "ridicule" this lawful act, are those in the real world. Stop berating the TG community and get out and show that men can wear skirts.

[TGMarla]

You're absolutely right, Pythos. My dead horse reference was to the OP on that thread, not to your alternative argument that addresses men who openly wear skirts et al in male mode. When I dress, it's almost always in full female mode, whereas with you, you're wearing skirts without any attempt to disguise the fact that you're male. They are, indeed, two differing arguments. The "women are crossdressing when they wear pants and are hypocrites to object to our MtF crossdressing habits" argument is the dead horse.

[Joanne f]

Maybe one of the problems is that it is not what you are trying to sell but the audience that you are trying to sell to , i have made a long black wrap over skirt for myself to wear , so that is a plain black skirt even with the opening on the opposite side to that of a female one made by a man for a man ( although my wife might argue over that) :heehee: so in theory i should be able to just put it on and walk down the street , so why do i feel uncomfortable doing that , OK i know you could say that i have TG issues (which i do) so it is my female side making me want to do that but there are many men who do not have this TG issue so why do they ALL not do it , because they are feeling that they are being judged.
The thing is that on here it is assumed that anyone who comes here has some sort of TG issues which is fair enough as you only have to look at the title of the site so any wife/so that comes here is going to automatically assume there is more to it that just wanting to wear a skirt and to be honest 9 times out of ten they are right which is were some of the acceptance issues stem from , ReineD once said something about a lot of CDs do not feel like they have acceptance of what they are doing unless they have full acceptance of the degree of what they want to do.
I wonder how many wives/SOs would look upon it in a different light if their partners agreed to the wearing of skirts only , i suspect more than the CDers who would agree to just that .

[AllieSF]

Why is the statement that men being blocked from wearing skirts AS MEN, while women can wear whatever style pants they wish is unfair, is considered an argument that is "kicking at a dead horse"?

Pythos, I will only address this question. I think that I understand what you are asking. But in interpreting what you have stated and asked I have to take a somewhat opposing opinion. I believe that over the years whether recently or over a much longer period of time, the fact that women can wear pants has progressed from something outside the time frame's norms to an accepted and liked women's fashion style with all of its variations. Thus, in my opinion, it has nothing to do with crossdressing however you want to define it and the issues associated with MtF dressing. It is comparing apples and oranges. So, to be continually bringing up this incorrect comparison, is just like "kicking a dead horse".

Since, as said above, men wearing skirts and/or other obvious female clothing and presenting as a male is rare, we should expect some type of surprise, questioning and resistance to tolerate and accept this by society. I do wish that this wouldn't happen, i.e. you could wear what you want and where you want with no negative reactions. However, that is not and will not be the case until more people do that out in public and the public begins to accept it without comment.

Regardless of the reasons that more men don't do that (fear of negative reactions or probably the most common reason, no desire to do that), the very small number of men that currently do that is probably just not large enough to really start to radically change the publics opinions of it. Right now, it is treated as just one of those small subset dressing cultures like androgyny, goth, grunge or whatever. If the style would really catch on with the masses of men, then you will start to see changes. I truly believe that those males wanting to wear skirts in male mode are in a very small minority.

That being said, instead of complaining about it, just continue do it like you seem to so successfully do. There is no one really "blocking" you from doing that except you and your internal fears of negative consequences, some real and maybe some not so real. Dress as you want and deal with the reactions to it, and adapt where necessary, which I also think that you do. I always believe that making positive comments and having a positive attitude will gain you more than a negative approach will. I dress as a woman, don't really pass, and don't really give a shit either. I have a positive attitude, am happy and look for the good side of things. ALL, and I repeat, ALL, of my outings dressed as a woman have been positive and fun with no true negative reactions. Surprises and curiosity, yes. I go out with a smile on my face, a positive curious attitude and have positive and happy experiences. Try that and forget about the negative stuff. It seems to me, and I say this as a neighbor and on line friend, that you dwell too much on the negative and too little on the positive.

[prettytoes]

I am one of those men that really enjoys wearing skirts. I think they are very comfortable, much cooler than shorts on hot days, and they just make me feel good to wear one. I do not try to come off as female, I have a mustache, tattoos, and a muscular, hairy chest. I generally do not use make-up (maybe on Halloween), wigs, or breast forms. I simply enjoy feminine clothing...satin panties and nighties, sport bras, skirts, sundresses, and yoga shorts for working out. I have to agree that it is not fair, but it is a "standard" as viewed by the general population. I do not go out in a skirt, as much as I would like to, because of the fear of ridicule, stares, laughing, and the like. I feel much more at home and comfortable in a short denim mini skirt, but cannot wear one all the time due to these silly "rules" imposed by society. Sometimes life just isn't fair.

[NathalieX66]

Kilts notwithstanding?:heehee:
From time to time, I see weddings where the groom is wearing a kilt.

No, I don't believe it's a beating a dead horse issue for a guy to simply wear a dress without going full-on en femme. It is a cultural thing, nothing more.

[2SpeedTranny]

Why is the statement that men being blocked from wearing skirts AS MEN, while women can wear whatever style pants they wish is unfair, is considered an argument that is "kicking at a dead horse"?

I don't see myself as being "blocked" from it.

You're only a prisoner to convention so long as you choose to be.

I wear skirts as a guy, even to work. It's a matter of practicality -- less swamp crotch in the heat. No one stops me, and to date, not one single human being has told me I can't. Not that I would care if they did, mind you. I have a few smartass replies rolling around in my head for just such an occasion, and a little part of me is disappointed that I've never had to use them.

Hmmm... well, okay, my sister-in-law thinks I'm weird. But she lives 1,500 miles away and belongs to a cult, so the feeling is mutual. Big deal. :)

Anyway, Pythos, you live in the most gay-friendly, liberal, leftist, bleeding-heart communist city on the planet. Your take on the matter is surprising, to say the least. The only one holding you back is you, man!

[TxKimberly]

Hmm . . . .

OK, first of all I'd have to agree that it IS unfair that women can wear slacks and men cant wear skirts. Now having agreed with that point, there is more to be considered.

First and foremost, women went out on a limb and fought for that right. They fought for the right to be treated fairly and they fought for the right to dress as they pleased. When we are willing to stand up en-mass and do the same thing, THEN men will be able to wear skirts when they want to. When we are willing to accept the harassment and the ridicule the same way that women were treated when THEY started wearing pants . . .

The reason everyone considers this to be beating a dead horse is because unlike your post, most that raise the topic try and equate women wearing slacks to cross dressing and it clearly is not the same thing. While they might have back when women first started wearing slacks, no reasonable individual today can claim that a woman wearing slacks is cross dressing. Today, slacks are considered 100% appropriate for women - they are NOT wearing the clothing of the other gender.
In contrast, a man wearing a skirt or dress IS cross dressing by todays standards. We are clearly wearing garments intended for and only appropriate for, the opposite gender.
You can not put the two into the same box - it just doesn't work.

Personally I wouldn't want to see it common place dresses and skirts to be common attire for males. Frankly I enjoy them in part because they are intended for women. If we lived in a time where it was completely normal attire for men, it would be such a bummer!

[Cynthia Anne]

Phythos You have a good argument here! Yes I agree with you! We country girls have been burying our dead horses for hundreds of years! The same way this argument should of been, hundreds of years ago!

[JohnH]

I don't see myself as being "blocked" from it.

You're only a prisoner to convention so long as you choose to be.

I wear skirts as a guy, even to work. It's a matter of practicality -- less swamp crotch in the heat. No one stops me, and to date, not one single human being has told me I can't. Not that I would care if they did, mind you. I have a few smartass replies rolling around in my head for just such an occasion, and a little part of me is disappointed that I've never had to use them.

Hmmm... well, okay, my sister-in-law thinks I'm weird. But she lives 1,500 miles away and belongs to a cult, so the feeling is mutual. Big deal. :)

Anyway, Pythos, you live in the most gay-friendly, liberal, leftist, bleeding-heart communist city on the planet. Your take on the matter is surprising, to say the least. The only one holding you back is you, man!

Powerglide, I concur.

Today I went to a barbershop to get a haircut that could pass for a woman. I wore a denim skirt and women's sandals, and nobody cared what I had on. I was talking to a guy about cars, and he was a macho looking man with all kinds of tattoes and he was having his hair cut short. Yesterday I went to pick up my car from a auto repair shop while wearing a different denim skirt. Both days I went to Walmart afterwards. I have also worn skirts to community chorus rehearsals, along with makeup, a blouse-like Hawaiian shirt, and women's sandals, where I sing second bass.

I am in the Dallas area - almost like the buckle of the Bible Belt, and there are only a few people that give me a hard time for wearing skirts and dresses.

So I back off of my griping about how men cannot wear skirts and dresses.

John

[Pythos]

Well those last posts about successful wearings as males are encouraging.

[sissystephanie]

My late wife always did my makeup and fixed my wig when I went out as Stephanie, and I was completely passable.I have never been good at either makeup or fixing my wig, but with her help I did not need to! Then 6 years ago she died! How was I to go out as Stephanie? Well, I have been doing it. as a male Stephanie!! I dress totally enfemme, from skin out, but wear no wig or makeup. In plain english, I am a guy in a skirt or dress. I go everywhere dressed like that, and in the past almost 6 years have not had one single negative comment!! I have had numerous compliments on my feminine outfits, from both men and women!! Oh yes, I wear all kinds of skirts or dresses. But I wear clothes that are similar to what other ladies are wearing, not something like a drag queen would wear!! As long as you are decently clad, most people don't care what you have on.

This may get me in trouble, but I will say it anyway! Most of the problems with men wearing skirts is not with the general public!! It is with the men who are afraid to go out in public wearing a skirt!! if you wear it like you belong in it, very few people will say or do anything!! Those of us who do it all the time know that is a fact!!

[Billie Jean]

Amen Stephanie. I too go as a man wearing womens clothes that are not like something a drag queen would wear and I have never had anyone say something negative. I have had quite a few compliments on how well I co-ordinated my outfits. Billie Jean

[Babeba]

You're only a prisoner to convention so long as you choose to be.


I really liked this post!

Besides, who gets to decide what 'conventional' is, anyway? It's really only something changed by action.

[Intertwined]

So men in skirts can expect no problems from their SOs, family or their employer?

That horse seems very much alive and kicking to me

Well, lets see, 4 days ago, my employer had the Employee of the year ceremony, which I was one of the nominees, I am a 50 year old Male, 6 ft 2 in, in farely decent shape, I went to the awards ceremony, got up on stage in front of about 400 co-workers, and shook hands with the CEO, wearing, a white mens dress shirt, black tie, black pencil skirt, arguile tights & black 5 inch high heel dorsey pumps, I have had no ridicule so far, and nothing but interesting questions, example, today a co-worker came up to me and asked where I get shoes so large, she has a sister that is a basket ball player, and she can't find shoes to fit her feet, I told her where to find them... I will go and try to post one of the picks in the photo gallery right now

[Pythos]

Intertwined, you also noted in picture thread post here that when you informed your employer you were transgendered that they said you could not dress. Now if this ridiculous double standard did not exist, and men could wear skirts as men, do you think such a request from an employer would be needed? I give you props for going to such a gathering in the attire you did, however is this the first time you have done such? What if any effect has this had at your job?

I really would like to know that my skirted styles would not lead to my losing that which I have worked so hard for, The FAA can really ruin someone's life.

[christine55]

I would imagine that sooner or later the courts will rectify the situation. Who knows, there are so many other areas where they seem to obviously ignore the constitution regarding individual rights and the law. "may I look in your car?"

[t-girlxsophie]

If my minds not letting me down,was there not a case in US about a young lad at High School a few years back who wore a Kilt to the Prom,to show his Scottish heritage.And this act of self expression got him Expelled:wall: theres plenty of fashion kilts out there,camouflage,pink,leather etc that can be worn,If anyone is wary of going out in skirts,doesn't solve anything but might be an Idea

Sophie

[2SpeedTranny]

Well those last posts about successful wearings as males are encouraging.

Encouraging?

C'mon, dude.

San Francisco. Anything goes. You live there; I don't. Why are you jealous of me?

I don't know why, for certain, you reference the FAA. To the best of my knowledge, if you're aiming to be a pilot, they're looking only at your logbook. There's no "Transvestite Single Engine" endorsement. No "Wears Fake Boobs, Floatplane" signoff. If you got the skills, you got the skills. Period. Mechanic? An A&P is an A&P. I know this gig... my brother is one, and he's on the new Boeing 787 project.

Now then. There's a difference between what you do on weekends, and what you do during the week. I might not get my ass kicked, or have to kick ass, if I showed up to my workaday thing in the manner I dress on weekends. But it would be awkward.

Final analysis... I guess I'm not sure what you're really after here.

So... what?

[Sue101]

Pythos, I will only address this question. I think that I understand what you are asking. But in interpreting what you have stated and asked I have to take a somewhat opposing opinion. I believe that over the years whether recently or over a much longer period of time, the fact that women can wear pants has progressed from something outside the time frame's norms to an accepted and liked women's fashion style with all of its variations. Thus, in my opinion, it has nothing to do with crossdressing however you want to define it and the issues associated with MtF dressing. It is comparing apples and oranges. So, to be continually bringing up this incorrect comparison, is just like "kicking a dead horse".

Ok I will counter your counter. First lets get away from this notion that it is only pants that women have acquired. In reality every article from the hats on men's heads to the boots on men's feet have all been integrated into women's fashion. Even men's underwear is copied. This is not a question of fashion as it has been this way for decades and I have no doubt it is here to stay. So why does so much of women's wear mimic men's? Because women have to compete with men and be regarded as their equal and they cannot do this from the standpoint of femininity which is not considered the equal to masculinity.

Women have been encouraged to develop their own masculine qualities, and since we know people use clothes as a means to reflect how they feel about themselves, we would expect women to adopt men's styles and that is exactly what we see. Women are not crossdressing in clothes specifically designed to mimic men's to switch from feminine to masculine but instead from feminine to androgynous. This is still a form of crossdressing since women are using male clothing styles to change their gender presentation.

I think the above is great because the gender socialization we all incur in childhood tries to turn us into two distinct genders when in reality there is a huge overlap between men and women. By integrating masculine clothing women are getting back to their natural state, something I call whole-gendered. I wish that these parallels with what women do and what male crossdressers do were better understood because I think it brings crossdessers in from the cold. It highlights the artificial nature of our binary gender system and the natural instinct in people to throw off the unnatural shackles of distinct genders.

[Pythos]

I totally concur with this statement.


I think the above is great because the gender socialization we all incur in childhood tries to turn us into two distinct genders when in reality there is a huge overlap between men and women. By integrating masculine clothing women are getting back to their natural state, something I call whole-gendered. I wish that these parallels with what women do and what male crossdressers do were better understood because I think it brings crossdessers in from the cold. It highlights the artificial nature of our binary gender system and the natural instinct in people to throw off the unnatural shackles of distinct genders.

Let's also not be too one sided here.

Recall the stupid and idiotic nonsense Hillary went through for her wearing of pant suits during her run for President. I don't think one day went by I heard some talking head stating that her pantsuits work against her. What absolute nonsense.

But, there is a list of things women have indeed taken from the male aisle with little to no problems. Jeans, t-shirts, tennis shoes, combat boots, hiking boots, base ball caps, Boxer shorts, tank tops, ties,

Now, can someone please post what items from the women's aisle men have been able to appropriate? Aside from the possible leggings and skinny jeans I really cannot think of anything.

[Frédérique]

By integrating masculine clothing women are getting back to their natural state, something I call whole-gendered. I wish that these parallels with what women do and what male crossdressers do were better understood because I think it brings crossdessers in from the cold.

What if I LIKE the cold? Seriously, the “natural state” you are referring to has a lot to do with innocence, or a time before a young male or female becomes aware of his or her responsibilities to society – maybe women are trying to get back to this whole-gendered state, as you say, but are they ditching overtly female characteristics for personal gain, either implied or real? In a similar vein, I can understand why a male would wish to return to the gender-incorporated state he emerged from, and seek a less masculine peace – however, with the emphasis on success and forward progress always prevalent in a phallocentric society, it would be very difficult for any male to “square” himself with this notion of retreat. Indeed, many males who crossdress don’t fully appreciate the paradise of gender blurredness they left far behind. Looking back with either a sense of longing or regret is, in itself, surrender, and males decry submission for the same reason women seek “equality,” i.e. the need to obtain and protect a dominant role…


Recall the stupid and idiotic nonsense Hillary went through for her wearing of pant suits during her run for President. I don't think one day went by I heard some talking head stating that her pantsuits work against her. What absolute nonsense.
Now, can someone please post what items from the women's aisle men have been able to appropriate? Aside from the possible leggings and skinny jeans I really cannot think of anything.

The statements about Hillary were political in nature, springing from the same conservative mindset that brought you gems like, “The French have no word for entrepreneur.”

As for clothing, I have been able to appropriate nearly everything from the women’s aisle AND wear it as a means of expression, but if I walk around crossdressed to the hilt in this part of the country I will need someone to follow me with a wheelbarrow, a pail, and a spatula. I’m Freddy, and that’s the way it IS…
:sad:

[Jason+]

There is such an obvious difference between what most people think of cd'ing vs. men that would want to wear skirts "just because" that i believe it's you that is kicking the dead horse..

if you are truly just a guy that likes skirts as fashion, then wear them..outside of traditional crossdressing, very few guys want to wear skirts...i'm not sure what you are going on about.. do you think crossdressers somehow don't support men that just want to wear skirts?..

btw...my best friend doesnt tuck, doesnt wear breast forms but does completely dress and tries to blend in as a female..

Kaitlyn,

Your best friend blending as a female makes her not part of the group this thread is about. I disagree with you on the number of men who would want to wear skirts or dresses as men. A lot that would want to are not willing to suffer the consequences of it. They may find it easier to pass/blend/hide. Until they are willing to fight like women have already done to assert their rights things will not change.


Why bother trying to flog this horse then. We are not the community who "frown upon men wearing skirts". Why try preach the rights and wrongs here, the only way to get your message to those who "ridicule" this lawful act, are those in the real world. Stop berating the TG community and get out and show that men can wear skirts.

Nigella,

Speaking as a man who does wear skirts and dresses out in public as a man the most virulent opposition to men wearing skirts as men has not come from John Q. Public. They have provided stares and giggles and the occasional sarcastic comment but they do not hold a candle to the vocal and thankfully small minority of the TG community that I have experienced myself and watched as they tried to shred a new member who feels like I do as well as members who are long standing and more successful at pulling off the skirt as men look.

[Sue101]

I can understand why a male would wish to return to the gender-incorporated state he emerged from, and seek a less masculine peace – however, with the emphasis on success and forward progress always prevalent in a phallocentric society, it would be very difficult for any male to “square” himself with this notion of retreat. I agree our male-centric culture makes it very difficult for any male to consider being whole-gendered. Even if he was not a crossdresser, he would still be perceived as being a lesser man and opportunities to succeed in work and in relationships would be reduced.

As much as we would desire it, the idea that our society would ever welcome feminine men is hard to perceive. For that to happen would require society to recognise femininity as being of equal value to masculinity. Even women have largely abandoned femininity to jump on ship with masculine values. Feminism says femininity promotes weakness and servitude. It is hard to see any reverse in these attitudes for the foreseeble future.

[Pythos]

Someone here said something I don't think people really see the full effect of.

"very few males want to wear skirts"

How do we know this is the case, or if when most men grow up they are bombarded with the idea that women are less than men, and skirts are for girls or sissies. I fortunately have seen women are not less than men, except in some very rare circumstances. But also, I do not associate most clothing with particular genders. I kinda get irritated when I read stuff like "Pantyhose are so feminine" Or "high heels make me feel all girle", and such things. I don't feel masculine when I am in jeans, I don't feel super girlie when in a skirt and hose. I just feel like me.

Unless I find one that I find matches me, you will not see me in one of those silly looking babydoll dresses. For me those styles do not put across a strong, or positive image of females. Personally I think the separation of the sexes in many many ways weakens the whole species known as human.

[Taylor186]

Well those last posts about successful wearings as males are encouraging.

And one more,

There is a forty-something, plain-looking, slightly over-weight man who attends my church dressed as a male from the waist up--man's shirt, man's watch, no ear rings or makeup or bra or other jewelry, traditional male haircut--and from the waist down is dressed as a female--black flowing ankle length skirt, woman's black flats and hosiery. His appearance is male in every way--other than his skirt, shoes and hose. The prototypical "man-in-a-dress."

This is in a small Midwest community in a red State and a bright red County.

He, as near as I can tell, is fully accepted by the other members, and during the post sermon social time is always involved in lively conversation with someone or some group.

So what I've seen tends to agree with what others have said above. If your goal is to present as a man with greater fashion freedom, then the only road block is yourself.

[AllieSF]

Pythos, I didn't use those exact words, but I did say that probably very few men (a small minority) want to wear skirts or dresses in male mode. I say that because I truly believe that when there are enough people wanting to do something out of the mainstream, some individuals will start doing that singularly and enough will be doing that by themselves that it will eventually become an obvious movement regardless what are the fashion styles and norms at that moment. I have seen over the years those rare moments when through the fashion world men will be shown wearing skirts. However, that has never caught on, not even to the mass of trend setters who do not care what others think. Why?

I am a late starter as a MtF CD and never had the desire to wear a skirt in private nor in public, and have never met anyone then and even up to now that wanted to wear a skirt in male mode, except for those I have seen on this site. And looking at the number here who like to wear a skirt in male mode, that is still a very small minority of the MtF CD members. So, as many have stated, including me, to each their own. You like goth, go for it. I like femme, I go for that. Someone likes frilly femme or baby doll look, go for it. What looks silly to you, may look fabulous to someone else. What looks right for you, may look wrong for someone else.

I also believe that having the separation of genders and sexes to be a natural, good and functioning system. By having two genders and all that goes with them, we get a balance which also can help to support a very large spectrum between both extremes, which adds to life's diversity and beauty, and strength. The differences compliment each other and on the big scale help make everything work. I definitely do not want to see the joining of the genders and sexes into one.

I also like the blurred lines where whoever wants to can cross over temporarily or permanently to the other side or somewhere in between. I agree that it is not totally accepted by society in general, but must reiterate that in my own personal experience, I have not encountered negative reaction to me being out there as Allie. I think that the more people that can overcome their own personal fears and can get out there in the real world will prove that my experience is not the exception, but rather the norm. Some might not like it that I and others like me are out there, but the vast majority do and will tolerate our right to be there.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Kaitlyn, you missed the point of my post entirely.

Did you not see I was not refering to the full on cding?

Did you not see how at least to me, men CANNOT openly wear skirts as men and not face ridicule, laughter and a trip to the house of pain.

Recall, this is one of my posts, and reading it thoroughly may be required do to my horrible grammar.

i understand what you are saying..sorry..

[Billie Jean]

If women want to wear pants and men dresses, I say let them. I know that everybody who has seen me in a dress is not OK with it but nobody has ever given me a hard time. I just get some looks and laughs both of which I don't let bother me. If more men wore dresses in public it would soon be something people would pay less attention to. Billie Jean

[DemonicDaughter]

Let's change this argument a bit here, shall we? See the focus seems to always be that because women were denied the right to wear pants that now that they do so, this is a form of crossdressing or what-have-you. The argument that skirts are not male attire is moot because it USE TO BE. Kilts, togas, etc. From Romans to Africans to Scots to Vikings they wore a type of dress/skirt. Just have a gander and fashion over the centuries.

So really the argument is "why isn't it fashionable anymore?" That's really what you are asking. Let me tell you why. Blame the cowboy. See, when America was discovered and began to populate, the trek to the untamed west was considerably harsh. The fashions of the original colonialist wasn't suitable and the birth of "jeans" or "dungarees" was the fastest excepted trend in the history of fashion! It became the ICON for the west and America. It became the symbol of "manliness" and being "macho". It told everyone who saw you that you were more powerful than the untamable west! (How's that for advertising?) Jeans were practical, inexpensive, suitable for all weather and activities.

So your question of why don't women, other men, society, etc. accept you in a skirt but are okay with women in pants, well that's easy. Because it's become commonplace. Just as it use to be common place for men to wear togas, or silk tights (did you know that Queen Elizabeth the First was the first woman to wear silk stockings? And it was considered absolutely scandalous!). It's also been common place for men to wear ruffled shirts and peacock feathers out of their collars, yet you don't argue about acceptance of that anymore. You only want to argue about the fashion that's "taboo" for you personally. But the answer is the same from one to the other. It's not commonplace anymore. For you to have your wish, start fashion trends wearing skirts and fight just as the women did to wear pants.

And I honestly don't know where you get this idea that there is no repercussion for attired based on a persons gender. Least of all from someone who is obviously a goth. As a goth myself, I'm INSTANTLY judged based on my appearance and yet here I am, a GG who can "wear whatever [I] want". Yeah right! Because if I wear a mini-shirt and a guy rapes me, I was really "asking for it" right? No assumptions there based on attire. Or if I dress like a "butch" and rapes me because "all a lesbian needs is a 'real man' to show her how much she likes it", again, it's not because I'm dressed "manly" right? Oh no, because in your little world that doesn't happen. Women can wear tutus on their head and no one bats an eye! Get over yourself. IF IT'S NOT MAINSTREAM IT'S NOT ACCEPTED. End. of. Discussion. Want to wear skirts, wear skirts. Hopefully one day it will be in style again but till then... you REALLY are beating a dead horse.

[TGMarla]

Kudos to you, DD. In many respects, you pegged it. But rather than blaming the American Cowboy, I think you can actually take it back to England in the beginnings of the Industrial Age. Check out John Stuart Mill, and the advent of Utilitarianism. We have him to thank for the awful sameness and boring-ness that prevails in men's fashions today. Thanks for nothing, JSM. You're not invited to any of my parties.

[DemonicDaughter]

Kudos to you, DD. In many respects, you pegged it. But rather than blaming the American Cowboy, I think you can actually take it back to England in the beginnings of the Industrial Age. Check out John Stuart Mill, and the advent of Utilitarianism. We have him to thank for the awful sameness and boring-ness that prevails in men's fashions today. Thanks for nothing, JSM. You're not invited to any of my parties.

This is true. It's just that the American Cowboy became a world wide symbol of masculinity at one point and truly changed the world's view of what men should dress like. But yes, it did start with JSM and you bet he got a lot of bitching from his wife that he dressed like a boring ol' bloke? LOL

[Marissa]

**Quote modified**


IF IT'S NOT MAINSTREAM IT'S NOT ACCEPTED. End. of. Discussion. Want to wear skirts, wear skirts. Hopefully one day it will be in style again but till then... you REALLY are beating a dead horse.

Well stated D.D...maybe some light will shine through to have some grasp the thought of what beating a dead horse is.

[AllieSF]

Actually, I would love to know the origins of that phrase. I always wonder if we use some of these old ones correctly. I know that many times I don't!

[Pythos]

I don't recall EVER saying that someone suffering due to their choice in attire was acceptable. In fact I come out against people ridiculing someone's style.

I am not for women losing the freedoms they have when it comes to clothing choices. I am only wanting and wishing for men to have that same freedom.

You do notice how a girl can get away with a Goth look far more than a boi? At least in main stream society.

I do not just preach, but I indeed practice. I almost daily wear unconventional styles to my job. (my computer one, not my flying one, though I would love to do that again). I have even gone skirted with eye makeup once, which was fun, but one customer frowned on it...no more for that, at least for a while. Now, would a girl or woman have faced that?

But don't think for a second that I don't fight. I think I fight too much, too much attention is given to what I wear by myself. I should just be able to put on what I would like to wear. But when I venture out in a skirted outfit (sorry I don't like being limited to kilts, or sarongs, or the other "accepted" male items, to me that is like telling a woman, you are restricted to only dress pants, and nothing else), I can't help but feel I may look a complete and total fool. Would I think that way if men were indeed able to wear skirts as everyday choice wear?

Women in many ways can get away with much more wimsical behavior (silly things on their head, eg cat ears.) that if a man were to do such he would be ridiculed, or beat up.

As far as ruffled shirts are concerned...I would love to wear mine...and do. There is no problem with wearing such in an unprofessional setting. Peacock feathers....never really thought of that, but if I wanted then I should be able to. Just as we should be able to be our goth selves.

On that note. Do you think a male version of Abby (in place of the queen of darkness, as in the original character was male from the get go of NCIS) would be as well recieved as Abby. I mean a male Goth or the old school style (not the modern goth male that too me is a tad too...mainstream), meaning dark clothes, androgynous look, and what not. I don't think so. I think that character would have been written out quite quickly. Maybe I am wrong though.

Allie SF. I too do not want to see a complete blurring of the sexes or genders. But I think those that exhibit qualities of both or some of the gender other than their birth gender or sex, should be able to freely express it, without harm, or having their lives badly effected by it.

[DemonicDaughter]

I don't recall EVER saying that someone suffering due to their choice in attire was acceptable. In fact I come out against people ridiculing someone's style.

I am not for women losing the freedoms they have when it comes to clothing choices. I am only wanting and wishing for men to have that same freedom.

You do notice how a girl can get away with a Goth look far more than a boi? At least in main stream society.

I do not just preach, but I indeed practice. I almost daily wear unconventional styles to my job. (my computer one, not my flying one, though I would love to do that again). I have even gone skirted with eye makeup once, which was fun, but one customer frowned on it...no more for that, at least for a while. Now, would a girl or woman have faced that?

But don't think for a second that I don't fight. I think I fight too much, too much attention is given to what I wear by myself. I should just be able to put on what I would like to wear. But when I venture out in a skirted outfit (sorry I don't like being limited to kilts, or sarongs, or the other "accepted" male items, to me that is like telling a woman, you are restricted to only dress pants, and nothing else), I can't help but feel I may look a complete and total fool. Would I think that way if men were indeed able to wear skirts as everyday choice wear?

Women in many ways can get away with much more wimsical behavior (silly things on their head, eg cat ears.) that if a man were to do such he would be ridiculed, or beat up.

As far as ruffled shirts are concerned...I would love to wear mine...and do. There is no problem with wearing such in an unprofessional setting. Peacock feathers....never really thought of that, but if I wanted then I should be able to. Just as we should be able to be our goth selves.

On that note. Do you think a male version of Abby (in place of the queen of darkness, as in the original character was male from the get go of NCIS) would be as well recieved as Abby. I mean a male Goth or the old school style (not the modern goth male that too me is a tad too...mainstream), meaning dark clothes, androgynous look, and what not. I don't think so. I think that character would have been written out quite quickly. Maybe I am wrong though.

Again, it all boils down to the same exact thing... what is in fashion at the time. Only two short decades ago in the '80s men were wearing poet shirts, neon colored shoes, ties, hats, vests, etc. The fashion of the '80s male was MUCH more whimsical than today. So AGAIN it boils down to... what is mainstream fashion at the time. This includes women. See not so long ago, a women showing her ankles would get arrested and was considered on a prostitute's level. So image the old Silver Screen with iconic beauties and perfectly coiffed dressed as today's woman! Why that scene would never see the light of day, the film would be shut down and so on and so forth. Because although it's accepted now, it wasn't then. Just like in the future, what we wear now will no longer be acceptable attire.

If you wish to argue the point of what PEOPLE are allowed to wear, you are better off not making a comparison from one gender to another as society has ALWAYS dictated that role. You are FAR better off arguing how today's average male doesn't strive to have the same fashion expression as they use to or that they are far too content NOT fighting, or something similar. It drives the point home much better.

[Rachel Morley]

I haven't read all the replies to this thread, but I just wanted to say that IMO the idea that men could/would wear a skirt (especially a long, to the floor, floaty black one) was something I thought would be the natural course of evolution when it comes to guys' fashions. Truthfully I do think this. Especially young guys in their 20's. To be honest, I am quite surprised we don't see more than the occasional dude on vacation in a sarong. Are people frightened of showing a little femininity in boy mode? or is there more to it than that?

[ReineD]

First, I do appreciate that you've started a separate thread for this, rather than engage in the philosophy of gender specific clothing in threads from new SOs in Loved Ones. Thank you. :)

Second, theoretically your point is valid. How could it not be? However, if you take some time to think about why in the history of humanity and in virtually all cultures, mankind has conspired to maintain gender specific clothing, you might get an answer. The psychology of it goes much deeper than you may think and it does go back thousands of years. You should go to a research library, look up a few papers with differing outlooks (there must be scads of research done on the topic already), and report your findings here.

Last, I think it was Kaz who mentioned going to a lot of fashion shows because her daughter is a designer, and she noticed that most of the designers have already or are now introducing man skirts to their lines. I can see them becoming increasingly more popular in some sections of society more than others, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that if ever these skirts do become part of the mainstream, people will still find ways to let the industry know they prefer the man skirts to look different and more masculine than the girl skirts. So, any guy wearing a girl skirt will still be seen as crossdressing.

In terms of describing gender specific clothing at various times, yes it's true that centuries ago in the nobility class for example, male clothing was much more elaborate and feminine looking compared to today's standards. But still, even then, the CDers of the time would not have wanted to dress like that and would have preferred wearing what the women were wearing then. It's all relative. :)

Generally speaking, boys want to look like boys and girls want to look like girls. I don't think it's any more complicated than that and this is why the notion of gender specific clothing has survived throughout time and across cultures.

[TxKimberly]

. . . Last, I think it was Kaz who mentioned going to a lot of fashion shows because her daughter is a designer, and she noticed that most of the designers have already or are now introducing man skirts to their lines. I can see them becoming increasingly more popular . . .

Honestly I have enormously mixed feelings at the idea. I dont think I would enjoy skirts and dresses half as much if they were considered normal male attire. Part of WHY I like them is the very fact that they are "feminine".

[ReineD]

Kim, I think most everyone here at cd.com would agree with you. :)

[Sue101]

So really the argument is "why isn't it fashionable anymore? No thats not the argument at all. This is about gender perception not fashion. It does not matter to which sex certain clothes are attributed to, what matters is that clothes do have a known gender attribute and so they can be used to alter your gender presentation. The argument is why is it when women use clothes with male attributes, this is not considered crossdressing while the same is not true for men.


So your question of why don't women, other men, society, etc. accept you in a skirt but are okay with women in pants, well that's easy. Because it's become commonplace. This narrow focus on just pants makes it easy to claim that it is just a practical choice. This argument ignores that the issue that ALL items of male clothing have been appropriated by women. If it were just jeans then nobody would ever suggest that this was crossdressing. But when women wear everything from army boots to boxer shorts to braces and baseball caps, it becomes obvious that women are deliberately choosing to integrate male clothing (whether actual or women's mimicing mens clothes) into their everyday appearance. This means something way beyond practicality or fashion, it means women are using clothes of the opposite sex to move away from femininity towards androgyny. That is what crossdressing is. The main difference compared to male crossdressers is to do with the much larger degree of the gender switch and the emotions and motivations underlining the choice.

[DonniDarkness]

Women were oppressed for many many years .....they did not have equal rights.....they were not even considered whole people before womens suffrage...and in many parts of the world they still are....

We all as crossdressers or non crossdressers should embrace their rights to express themselves as they see fit, be that in pants or skirts....it seems somewhat cliche to say they are wearing my pants..."why cant i wear a skirt"....when they had to fight for their rights to wear what they wanted and be respected for it. Seems like we should be thanking them for giving us the hope that society will eventually accept you for who you are.....it just takes time and persistence on your part as an individual.

Fret not....

-Donni-

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Let's change this argument a bit here, shall we? See the focus seems to always be that because women were denied the right to wear pants that now that they do so, this is a form of crossdressing or what-have-you. The argument that skirts are not male attire is moot because it USE TO BE. Kilts, togas, etc. From Romans to Africans to Scots to Vikings they wore a type of dress/skirt. Just have a gander and fashion over the centuries.

So really the argument is "why isn't it fashionable anymore?" That's really what you are asking. Let me tell you why. Blame the cowboy. See, when America was discovered and began to populate, the trek to the untamed west was considerably harsh. The fashions of the original colonialist wasn't suitable and the birth of "jeans" or "dungarees" was the fastest excepted trend in the history of fashion! It became the ICON for the west and America. It became the symbol of "manliness" and being "macho". It told everyone who saw you that you were more powerful than the untamable west! (How's that for advertising?) Jeans were practical, inexpensive, suitable for all weather and activities.

So your question of why don't women, other men, society, etc. accept you in a skirt but are okay with women in pants, well that's easy. Because it's become commonplace. Just as it use to be common place for men to wear togas, or silk tights (did you know that Queen Elizabeth the First was the first woman to wear silk stockings? And it was considered absolutely scandalous!). It's also been common place for men to wear ruffled shirts and peacock feathers out of their collars, yet you don't argue about acceptance of that anymore. You only want to argue about the fashion that's "taboo" for you personally. But the answer is the same from one to the other. It's not commonplace anymore. For you to have your wish, start fashion trends wearing skirts and fight just as the women did to wear pants.

And I honestly don't know where you get this idea that there is no repercussion for attired based on a persons gender. Least of all from someone who is obviously a goth. As a goth myself, I'm INSTANTLY judged based on my appearance and yet here I am, a GG who can "wear whatever [I] want". Yeah right! Because if I wear a mini-shirt and a guy rapes me, I was really "asking for it" right? No assumptions there based on attire. Or if I dress like a "butch" and rapes me because "all a lesbian needs is a 'real man' to show her how much she likes it", again, it's not because I'm dressed "manly" right? Oh no, because in your little world that doesn't happen. Women can wear tutus on their head and no one bats an eye! Get over yourself. IF IT'S NOT MAINSTREAM IT'S NOT ACCEPTED. End. of. Discussion. Want to wear skirts, wear skirts. Hopefully one day it will be in style again but till then... you REALLY are beating a dead horse.

This is a great post...
I think many of the guys here that just like skirts or certain elements of feminine garb are mistaking folks simply not relating to them for not supporting them in their rights to do what they want..

[DonniDarkness]

I think many of the guys here that just like skirts or certain elements of feminine garb are mistaking folks simply not relating to them for not supporting them in their rights to do what they want..

That is spot on kaitlyn.

Also DD has some great points there in her post:


As a goth myself, I'm INSTANTLY judged based on my appearance


IF IT'S NOT MAINSTREAM IT'S NOT ACCEPTED

These two stand out to me, growing up being goth it really hits home and i think that it is an extremely valid point in this topic. Growing up being different, you develop these coping mechanisms for how others judge you based on you outward appearance, no matter if its painting my nails black or wearing guyliner....ive been called many terrible things for it. Now in these times Goth and Emo are mainstream.....growing up in the late 80's and early 90's it was extremely taboo....now people barley even notice. Why is this?...its because those of us who stuck to our guns and expressed ourselves how we wished paved the way for a new generation of kids to grow up with maybe a little less judgement from society as a whole. if you dont believe me look up "cosplay mtf" in google images and see the droves of young people being accepted in what was and has been very taboo for a long time. What are they? They are the trend setters on the new generation, paving the way for us who are "different"......

Many have taken an active step to change the world and have been judged harshly for it......what do they do when that happens?.....they keep their chin up and keep struting with a huge smile on their face.

-Donni-

[DemonicDaughter]

No thats not the argument at all. This is about gender perception not fashion. It does not matter to which sex certain clothes are attributed to, what matters is that clothes do have a known gender attribute and so they can be used to alter your gender presentation. The argument is why is it when women use clothes with male attributes, this is not considered crossdressing while the same is not true for men.

The original post was why can't men wear skirts as men. Not as CDers but specifically as men. So we're not talking about gender presentation, we're talking about the acceptance of ANY gender wearing ANY type of clothing (masculine or feminine attributes aside). And the answer is that it's not commonplace any longer. Men use to wear skirts as men and they wore dress-like attire for centuries. CDing is a different topic as already established in the thread. CDing is wear the clothing of a different gender. As Kim said, she wouldn't want to wear it if it was a male specific skirt or if it were the fashion for men to wear them. She specifically dresses like a woman and thus would only wear what women do.

And I'm not arguing it's validity, btw. I believe the people should be allowed to wear whatever their heart desires regardless of gender, race, age, whatever. But sadly that isn't society and that's not how things work.

[Pythos]

Ok DD, it is not concidered mainstream or commonplace. fine, point taken.

So, I am going to ask the GGs here of this forum.

If you knew of a male at your work that was facing disciplinary action because he was sighted outside their job wearing a skirt, which according to some pea head made a "bad representation" to the company, would you come to that guy's defense? (this is considering the outfit was decent, and was not insulting to women). Before you say this has not happened, look up win dixie, man in skirt. He ended up going to court over this incident.

Just because it is not mainstream does not mean we need to continue following the status quo.

[DemonicDaughter]

Ok DD, it is not concidered mainstream or commonplace. fine, point taken.

So, I am going to ask the GGs here of this forum.

If you knew of a male at your work that was facing disciplinary action because he was sighted outside their job wearing a skirt, which according to some pea head made a "bad representation" to the company, would you come to that guy's defense? (this is considering the outfit was decent, and was not insulting to women). Before you say this has not happened, look up win dixie, man in skirt. He ended up going to court over this incident.

Just because it is not mainstream does not mean we need to continue following the status quo.

I personally would and have come to the defense of both men and women wearing attire that is considered "inappropriate" for whatever stupid reason. This starting back with me in Junior High School when a good friend of mine would dress like Robert Smith from the Cure. I was almost expelled for my actions but I didn't care. I firmly believe that no one should be penalized for wearing any type of clothing as long as there wasn't an already pre-existing dress code (as I feel that if you signed on knowing about it, you should adhere to it) and it isn't offensive in that it doesn't contain or suggest pornographic images, inappropriate sayings and/or doesn't promote indecent exposure directly or indirectly (indirectly being skirts so short that the person cannot move "normally" without risk of exposing underclothing and/or body parts).

I've been an Efficiency Manager and have specifically argued with several Board of Directors regarding attire policies as they usually want to change or create one based on one person's attempt to go against mainstream. I argue that it stifles individuality and the person's ability to freely express themselves. I've made points about being more comfortable within their job and having the ability to function better because of it. I can agree there may have to be limits depending on the job/business but what people generally wish to wear is usually more upsetting to their co-workers than it is the customers.

[Cassidy]

I've been following this thread and the companion one. I find everyones thougths on it enlightening. I came across the following. It pertains to two riders one of which crashed out of the most recent MotoGP motorcycle race. After reading it I came to the conclusion with a few changing of words it could be applied to the comments in this thread. You decide.

'...These guys need to be encouraged to race. We have to encourage them to compete, to race. There ase so many restraints in our society, so many things are suppressed for sociall, moral, politically correct reasons and this is sort of the last frontier where these guys go out and race each other on the limit, doing what they love to do and you don't find too many complaining. We always talk about the need for respecting each other and they do. Most of the griping is for advantage to psyche out a rival but they nee to be allowed to race...'

[DemonicDaughter]

Pythos, I think what you're looking for is support in dressing as you please and the right to do so at work. There's nothing the matter with that. I also believe you are not pleased with the fact that the average person does little to nothing to challenged what is "mainstream" nor defend those that go against it. But the average person doesn't want to risk their job, least of all in this economy where there are literally hundreds of people waiting to jump into their position. Most of those who wish to go against mainstream don't have the funds to hire a lawyer and fight an employer for the right to wear what they like. Perhaps you should look into some local activist groups and possibly find support or offer your own to the cause. You're bound to get far more responses to your liking there than here where so many are in the closet and wouldn't stand up in fear of everyone finding out about them (even if they are out of the closet doesn't mean that's the case at work). Just a thought.

[ReineD]

So, I am going to ask the GGs here of this forum.

If you knew of a male at your work that was facing disciplinary action because he was sighted outside their job wearing a skirt, which according to some pea head made a "bad representation" to the company, would you come to that guy's defense? (this is considering the outfit was decent, and was not insulting to women). Before you say this has not happened, look up win dixie, man in skirt. He ended up going to court over this incident.

I would, now. But I wouldn't have if I was the sole supporter for my kids in a poor economy, as DD pointed out.

[Babeba]

In regards to pythos' question re: disciplinary action: I would raise a stink about it - but then, I work in the cultural sector funded by government which supposedly ought not to discriminate based on grounds of gender. I'm enough of a feminist to be pissed off when ANYBODY gets told they can't do something because of gender. I can't see my particular department having issues with what a person wears - we dress up in costumes on a regular basis, for goodness' sake; I was really attracted to this field because of the open creativity in it - but if it happened in another part of the structure I would not be happy about it.

It would be different, however, if the said job were something that required a unisex uniform or a coverall of some sort. Safety always comes first.

[Sue101]

The original post was why can't men wear skirts as men. Not as CDers but specifically as men. So we're not talking about gender presentation But this goes to the crux of the matter. Men who wear any feminine clothes are still considered crossdressers. Are crossdressers only those who try to pass as women? In which case many crossdressers do not do that. Many only underdress, many only are interested in lingerie, many only use costumes like maids and hooker outfits etc.

You cannot distinguish between crossdressers and men in skirts bcause you cannot ignore the gender attribute clothes have. A man cannot wear a skirt without being aware that changes his gender presentation. Even if he chooses to ignore it himself nobody else will. That is why ordinary men are not interested in wearing any article of feminine wear because of its inherent feminine attribute which is taboo in male society to express. Despite skirts and dresses being comfortable and pratical garments they will never gain any traction in male fashion until society itself changes it's view on men expressing femininity.

You cannot detach gender attibutes from the clothes. We dont live in a world which allows clothes to be genderless.

[Marissa]

**Quote modified**


You cannot detach gender attibutes from the clothes. We dont live in a world which allows clothes to be genderless.

And that is why a topic on this site such as this is seen as 'beating a dead horse'...you will get some who agree, some who don't, some who don't care. But when you wake up in the morning and go out the door, nothing has changed. I commend anyone who stands for their beliefs (if not unlawful or crosses the rights of others)..but a man wearing a skirt as a man is not ever going to be to my liking. And in no way are my thoughts hateful or disliking to the individual and I would not treat the person negatively in public or private. I would say Hi and go about my business. Call it bigoted, small minded or any other terms you choose...but its my 'right' to think that way since it hurts no one and does not interferes with their rights. I can just close my door or walk across the street..or whatever.

I have also notice what another stated that on daytime shows when its about fashion, many are 'introducing' their manskirts...just like makeup shows are introducing male eyeliners. But you don't see it in the mainstream..and I doubt you will until a change occurs (if it ever does).

But don't let my thoughts or opinions (there are many like me) stop you from doing what you are compassionate about...

And now I have become caught up in the weave of the 'dead horse' web :)

[DemonicDaughter]

You cannot detach gender attibutes from the clothes. We dont live in a world which allows clothes to be genderless.

It's society that determines gender appropriateness to clothing and that depends on the trends at the time. At one time men wore skirts and dresses without it being considered feminine. Pink was only associated with girls since the 1940s, previously it was blue for girls, pink for boys. Before that, ALL children wore white DRESSES, dress shoes and had their hair uncut until the age of six specifically because it was deemed "proper attire" at the time. Now it's completely unheard of. Why? Because the gender of clothing changes with society's view. Thus a skirt in actuality, has no gender until deemed so by society.

Pythos could have used a clown suit in place of the word skirt to demonstrate his point and it would have worked just the same. The truth is, as long as something isn't commonplace, "normal", mainstream, etc. it will be discriminated against by the majority of society until events change it's importance, significance and/or practicality otherwise. And though I agree that it is unfair that co-workers don't rally behind each other, especially if they are friends, do something similar, wish to share the same freedom of expression, etc. sadly, this doesn't happen nearly as much as it should. Like any change throughout history, it must start somewhere and it must be rallied behind before it will ever be noticed by the masses.

[KellyCD]

I just wanna say I love DD's posts, I've seen very few posters that can lay out their thoughts as well as she can.

[DemonicDaughter]

I just wanna say I love DD's posts, I've seen very few posters that can lay out their thoughts as well as she can.

*blushes* Thank you. I try to be as plain spoken as possible though sometimes... I seem to accomplish the opposite. LOL!

[ReineD]

I agree with you DD. But I think a point to consider is that no matter what is considered masculine vs. feminine clothing, whether it is now, at the turn of the last century, or 18th century France, no matter how feminine looking (by our current standards) men dressed then, if you were a CDer you would not have wanted to wear the things that Louis XVI wore, even with all the lace, tights, and frou-frouness. You would have wanted to dress like Marie Antoinette. It's relative to the fashion of the times.

A point I made earlier is that even if man skirts do make it into the mainstream, there will still be a difference between man and girl skirts and the CDers will continue to prefer wearing the girl skirts and perhaps think it is unfair that others will discriminate against them because they are not instead wearing the man skirts.

The issue is not about what people wear, really. It is getting society to accept there are men and women who wish to cross the gender lines.

[DemonicDaughter]

I agree with you DD. But I think a point to consider is that no matter what is considered masculine vs. feminine clothing, whether it is now, at the turn of the last century, or 18th century France, no matter how feminine looking (by our current standards) men dressed then, if you were a CDer you would not have wanted to wear the things that Louis XVI wore, even with all the lace, tights, and frou-frouness. You would have wanted to dress like Marie Antoinette. It's relative to the fashion of the times.

A point I made earlier is that even if man skirts do make it into the mainstream, there will still be a difference between man and girl skirts and the CDers will continue to prefer wearing the girl skirts and perhaps think it is unfair that others will discriminate against them because they are not instead wearing the man skirts.

I agree 100% (and thought I said so earlier but perhaps not), thus why it's society that deems the gender of clothing as well as personal perception. I'm merely trying to give Pythos the answer he seems to be specifically searching for; which has him stating things like it specifically not being a CDing thing or even that it's a feminine article of clothing. I think he's trying to remove certain aspects to get to the root of precise perceptions (primarily of himself, I believe) and making valiant attempts at trying to understand society from society's point of view. A very noble cause though utterly frustrating as the deep philosophical answers we hope to find are often non-existent and end up being something as simple as "that's the way it is". :(

I love you Huntress and you need to get your girly butt here for some vaca! And no, JFK was no DD. LMAO!

[Jamie001]

The way that attitudes regarding men wearing skirts as men will change is when men are women are accepted as equals in society. Men pay lip service to this concept, but it is still nothing but lip service. Unfortunately, we live in a patriarchal society and masculinity is highly valued while femininity is seen as weakness and is not valued to the same level. Therefore men that emulate women in any way are considered inferior. If society ever values masculinity and femininity as equals, then men will be able to wear skirts as men without facing ridicule. In my case, I will wear what I want to wear even if I am considered to be "less of a man". I would rather be considered "less of a man" than to futility attemtp be something that I am not that ultimately results in depression and anxiety.

[ReineD]

Jamie, I think it's deeper than that. In some corporate structures, in the medical field, and also in academia, the gender divide is greatly narrowed if not non-existent, yet all these people go home to their roles as wives and husbands. They still choose to maintain their genders, even if it is the wife who sits on the lawn mower on Saturday morning, and it is the husband who does the laundry. Neither of them wish to present like the opposite gender, and I'm sure they maintain their gender roles in the bedroom too. In today's marriages, I can't honestly picture a husband who feels patriarchal about his wife, who more than likely earns a similar salary. If he did, I don't think she'd go for it. :)

[Sue101]

But I think a point to consider is that no matter what is considered masculine vs. feminine clothing, whether it is now, at the turn of the last century, or 18th century France You beat me to it. DD is right in what she describes about how clothes can switch gender but it is not about the actual clothes nor fashion trends, it is about the gender attribute that item of clothing has here and now. The fact that it may switch again in the future is irrelevant.


A point I made earlier is that even if man skirts do make it into the mainstream, there will still be a difference between man and girl skirts and the CDers will continue to prefer wearing the girl skirts and perhaps think it is unfair that others will discriminate against them because they are not instead wearing the man skirts. This is at the root of crossdressing. We are chasing femininity, we consume it like it is a drug, it is our elixer to happiness. What we are after is the clothing that has the feminine attribute so male skirts are not desireable assuming they are designed differently. On the other hand if the male skirt was a direct copy then it would not matter if nobody could tell the difference.

[gailb]

QUOTE "I also really really really dislike the idea that men should be limited to kilts"--------------Yes me too I really don't see what all the fuss is about it's only a piece of cloth, what is it with society in 2011 that makes some people find the site of a male wearing female clothes a threat, perhaps in this war-torn violent world we live in if men were allowed to express their more caring feminine side the world would be a far better place.

[Joanagreenleaf]

Just to add a few things not mentioned so much, so far....

Much of what passes for "men's clothing" is job related - a particular "outfit" for a particular job or occupation. Wearing a welder's bib to weld makes sense for any welder, wearing a three piece Brooks Brothers suit would not. Women, when they were allowed to weld for the war effort, could make it look good - see the posters.

Much of what passes for "men's clothing is life related. To "be a man" is to be ready to compete - be it a footrace (after a purse snatcher), a "wrassling match" (catching a purse snatcher), and to bring the food back to the cave: "Here's your purse. Do you know how we can cook and eat this guy?"

Much of what passes for "menswear" is defensive. A dress doesn't do much to keep the hands off your "junk" and it's too easy for someone to grab the blanket wrapped around your waste to hinder you, throw you off balance, etc. Tight fitting, "slippery" clothes - being less of negative - are a defensive advantage.

Fashion is a presentation of availability for a particular purpose. It could be, "See, I'm a competent banker." It could also be, "Come hither." Fashion, therefore, can be a very tricky thing as non-verbal communication. "No, I'm not a banker; I"m going to a funeral." "No, I'm not looking for a date, I just felt like wearing something fun this evening - go away."

For me, men wearing skirts (only) requires a cost/benefit analysis: "Is it worth the probable hassle that comes with various interpretations people have, or, could have?

Frankly, I think it's easier to crossdress fully as it's generally a more easily understood presentation than a "man-a-taur" wearing a skirt and a suit coat....

There are again, no "fashion police" and no "absolute" rights and wrongs when it comes to clothing. But, there is "being reasonable..."

If you want to wear a skirt, thats up to you, but YOU take what comes with it.

What you do about what comes with it, depends on how much effort you want to put into doing what you're doing.

If you want the "rights," you'll need to gather the votes to have and keep them.

"Unalienable rights" are "just" ideas until put into laws and codes - and the "putting" takes more effort than just talking or writing about it now and then - from your password protected computer, hourly hotel room, or, closet sanctuary.

[ReineD]

Much of what passes for "men's clothing" is job related - a particular "outfit" for a particular job or occupation. Wearing a welder's bib to weld makes sense for any welder, wearing a three piece Brooks Brothers suit would not. Women, when they were allowed to weld for the war effort, could make it look good - see the posters.

I know this is a comparatively minor point in your overall post, but I do want to comment. It is a discussion that I have had with my SO. Although I've quoted you, I'm addressing this to everyone.

There is the idea that if the outfit looks good on a woman, it will make a CDer look good too. I've taken the liberty to look for two 'Rosie the Riveter' images. The image on the left is appealing, as you suggest above. The woman is svelte, she is pretty, she has a belt which emphasizes her waist, the pant legs are fashionably sailor-style wide, her breasts protrude, her feet are small, her hat is perched at a cute, cocky angle on her head, she has what looks like rich, brown locks even though her hair is short, her neck is long, and she is wearing bright lipstick. In short, it is an image of an appealing woman (who has a model's body), wearing fashionable looking overalls, despite the welder's image she is portraying. The image next to it is likely what the average looking woman looks like when she wears overalls and her arms have gained muscle from her welding activities ... hardly a look that I think most CDs would want to emulate, although even in this image the woman has attractively arched eyebrows and a feminine shape to her face.

Here's my point: it is not really the outfit that a man may feel looks 'cute' in the first image (compared to the outfit a male would wear), it is the 'feel' of the woman who is wearing it that attracts CDers, IMO. It is her hair, face, body, lips, tiny waist, small feet, etc. True, the outfit is tailored to fit her body. But, put the outfit on an average woman's body and it just doesn't look as good. Yet a CDer during the 40s would have ignored how ordinary women who wore overalls looked and would have preferred to wear the model's welding garb over men's overalls (thinking of the model's body), and further thinking that wearing such an outfit might transform him. If that makes sense.

So, the same is true with catalogue pics and online shopping site images of the clothes as they appear on gorgeous models. Yet put the same clothes on the average genetic male (or even on the average female who has shorter legs, squarer torso, smaller breasts, not a mode's face, and who might not have a well defined waist), and the look is entirely different. To achieve the same results, the CDer must be of similar stature as the model (or his vision of the "ideal" female) that he wishes to emulate. This is a difficult thing to accomplish for the average genetic male, especially if he is older than 25. To accomplish this, he needs to shape his eyebrows, wear forms, cinch his waist with corsets, etc.

I don't know what my point is, really, other than it appears to me that even though the average CDer may think it is all about the clothes, in reality it is about becoming the sexy woman that his guy self admires: the ideal woman who, if she has a model's looks and stature, would look good wearing a burlap bag as long as it was cinched at the waist and showed some leg. If the only images of women dressed in women's clothing ever available were of the average women that don't turn men's heads, I wonder if there would be as many CDers. :)

Or, I may be missing the point entirely here?

[Lorileah]

The first picture is the first day of work at 7AM when she reported to the assembly line...the second is 6 months later ;)

I agree Reine it is trying to become the attractive person you "imagine" you are. In daily life I have an image in my mind of how I look no matter what mode I am in and then I see a mirror and I know reality. Same with getting dressed up. I have an image of how I look, then I see the photos and although many say I look good I never see the image I want to see. The clothes always look good, it is the wearer (me) who makes them look bad. :)

[ReineD]

Lorileah, if you look like your avatar, I seriously doubt that you ever look bad. :)

[Taylor186]

... There is the idea that if the outfit looks good on a woman, it will make a CDer look good too...

Here's my point: it is not really the outfit that a man may feel looks 'cute' in the first image (compared to the outfit a male would wear), it is the 'feel' of the woman who is wearing it that attracts CDers, IMO. It is her hair, face, body, lips, tiny waist, small feet, etc. True, the outfit is tailored to fit her body. But, put the outfit on an average woman's body and it just doesn't look as good. Yet a CDer during the 40s would have ignored how ordinary women who wore overalls looked and would have preferred to wear the model's welding garb over men's overalls (thinking of the model's body), and further thinking that wearing such an outfit might transform him. If that makes sense.

So, the same is true with catalogue pics and online shopping site images of the clothes as they appear on gorgeous models. Yet put the same clothes on the average genetic male (or even on the average female who has shorter legs, squarer torso, smaller breasts, not a mode's face, and who might not have a well defined waist), and the look is entirely different. To achieve the same results, the CDer must be of similar stature as the model (or his vision of the "ideal" female) that he wishes to emulate. This is a difficult thing to accomplish for the average genetic male, especially if he is older than 25. To accomplish this, he needs to shape his eyebrows, wear forms, cinch his waist with corsets, etc.

I don't know what my point is, really, other than it appears to me that even though the average CDer may think it is all about the clothes, in reality it is about becoming the sexy woman that his guy self admires: the ideal woman who, if she has a model's looks and stature, would look good wearing a burlap bag as long as it was cinched at the waist and showed some leg. If the only images of women dressed in women's clothing ever available were of the average women that don't turn men's heads, I wonder if there would be as many CDers. :)

I may be missing your point, but it seems to me that women aren't immune to this kind of thinking either. Virtually all the women's catalogs that show up here are filed with the gorgeous, perfect-bodied models you describe above, and these images are there primarily to influence purchases by women.

[ReineD]

I agree with you, Taylor. Sadly, many women aren't immune to this either. This is why the fashion business is so big. Or these women play into it as long as they are young, single, and their bodies hold out. Others become compulsive about the shopping, buying way more stuff than they really need, in an attempt to reach the impossibly high media standards of beauty.

But, there are also the women who choose the opposite route and they give up. Or, they refuse to play into it. These are the women that so many CDers in this forum complain about: the ones who wear jeans, no makeup, sneakers, etc. The women who long ago came to realize they will never have a model's face and body, so they see the futility in trying to look like one.

And then there are the middle of the road women, like me.

But, my point I guess was rather about this ideal "image" that it seems many CDers chase (although I may be wrong), which makes me question whether it is really just about the clothes rather than wanting to attain what I consider to be a fake beauty ideal. I say "fake" because it is largely contrived by the fashion industry, with great marketing, models that look like a very small percentage of the real women out there, and lots and lots or air brushing.

[Joanagreenleaf]

ReineD,

About your pictures...

Note that the first woman is apparently a model for a workers training event in that she's standing next to sign about how to conduct yourself in doing "war work" (security) and a sign about choosing the right tool for the job. The second woman is engaged in actually doing "dirty work" and seems engaged in doing the work "with a will." Neither woman could be easily mistaken for a, "he," man...

The first woman, however, could easily be taken for an effeminate man. She seems self-conscious in her stance, she doesn't "own" the clothes she's wearing, and her posture is of one unprepared to do anything with any "will." The second woman is a "manly" woman, using muscle and action to get a task done. Sure, she could be mixing cookie dough, but it just so happens here she isn't.

The main thing dividing these two woman is, "competence," I think, and, unless you're looking at a competitor, competence is generally sexy, or, sexier than incompetence or uncertainty. Instead of "sexy" you could use "attractive," "useful," or, "valuable." To me, what separates CDs into two groups is "silly" vs. "sensible."

Some CDs "aspire" to be women and wind up being immature girls, not mature women. It's the lack of any real ability to get anything serious done, you see. Some CDs, a minority it seems, aspire (or, set the temporary goal) to be women - but in ways that many woman aspire to go about their day - the right clothes, makeup, shoes, etc. for what they are going to DO with their time as women.

I've seen both kinds of CDers, but I have never been anything but a "working woman's woman," I suppose, because to me it's been about experiencing "the mission" of getting ready, getting to work, and getting things done: whether it's getting the car fixed, arguing with the tax man, doing the grocery shopping, or, going to a party or the post office. I prefer the more pleasant assignments, of course, and not for the least of reasons that's it's easier on the clothes themselves.

The topic of this thread was about men wearing skirts. I've never had anyone say men couldn't wear skirts, only that they probably shouldn't. Skirts impart no advantages to most work-a-day tasks over pants, shorts, or, slacks that I have ever seen. Skirts, as women came to argue over time, limit what can be done, can often be a security problem, and, have to be managed more than pants. They are, too often, the wrong tool for the job and force the wearer into difficult or unsafe situations. Who, for example, wants a skirt trapped in a truck rig door as they step down from the cab? Who? Nobody with any sense of safety or financial profit...

The OP titled this thread, "Kicking (at) a dead horse." Actually, the expression is "Beating a dead horse": the "kicking" expression is "Kicking a dead dog." Either way, the notion is that it's fruitless to beat or kick a dead thing if your intent is to get the dead thing to, in the case of the horse, to run, or, in the case of the dog, to move. If, on the other hand, you want to vent some frustration, then the beating or kicking might be in order, although it just makes what you're doing more fruitless in terms of the commonly desired affect.

Men can wear skirts, and few men will stop them. Some will, most won't. And, why do the majority of men and women not deeply care about men wearing skirts? Because it's too easily seen as a pointless effort at getting very much done and it's easily seen a ultimately self defeating/silly behavior if it's "all" about freedom, etc.

Women wear tailored and/or colorful skirts to get something done, not just to appear stupid at getting on in life. And, when they wear pants, or, "dull" skirts, it's either because it fits their purposes better, they lack something else at the time, or, they guessed wrong about their day.

Men can and do wear skirts, when it makes better sense to do so. Which... is rarely.

But, knock yourself out if that's what you want to do. That's my take on it... And, I have some nice skirts that I wouldn't waste on tilting at windmills.

[TxKimberly]

. . . And then there are the middle of the road women, like me. . . .

OK, gotta jump in here for a second, and both flatter and perhaps help her make her point. I've met Reine in person and there is nothing 'middle of the road' about her appearance. She is beautiful. She is a real beauty - a woman who actually walks the earth, eats a reasonable meal, and appears to do a reasonable amount of exercise. What she is not
is a stick thin, starving to death, and heavily photo shopped teenaged girl trying to convince everyone that THIS is what real women look like.
I would much rather look like Reine than like that . . .

[Pythos]

Both of those Rosies are quite attractive to me, but I must honestly say, I like the one shown working. HEH. You know why? Because she looks like someone that would love to get dirty working on a classic plane or car along with me. We as a couple could share building up some old wreck, and then later in the evenening get dressed to the nines and head out. Who cares about the arms, those are arms that actually CAN do work. Heck I think it would be beyond awsome to get hooked up with a GG that liked my fem image, AND had aspirations to restore some classic, just would like help, I would so be in there. LOL She could wear the baggy coveralls and I could wear my catsuits. (Yea I know....crazy imagination)