An Open Invitation To Express Why You Feel The Way You Do About Men In Skirts/Dresses [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Jason+

05-22-2011, 04:43 PM

Many forum members have expressed great support for myself and others that would present in public as men who like to wear dresses, skirts or other items of womens wear with comments ranging from "You're very brave to wear what you want" to "I wouldn't be caught dead in my own house without being fully done with wig and makeup but good job for being you on your terms."

There is another group who feels very strongly and vocally that anything less than passing/blending should be totally hidden away calling it "half-dressed," "half assed," "lazy" and "damaging to the image of all cross dressers." This group has made it quite clear that it is an all or nothing proposition. There is no middle ground and the only way for CD's to gain acceptance is for all to pass/blend.

The areas I would like to see addressed by the second group are:

Why do you have to be a woman to wear a skirt or dress?
How does a man in public in a skirt or dress that is reasonably modest and who has done nothing illegal or immoral damage the image of cross dressers?
If you have successfully passed or blended and John Q. Public doesn't know you were a CD how has that helped John Q. accept?

Rather than dismiss those of you who feel this way perhaps I have missed or overlooked something that is critical. I ask simply that for all who reply please check your bias at the door and try to educate without derision.

Kaz

05-22-2011, 05:11 PM

Hi Jason,

I guess this comes down to your definition of CDing. What I have learned from this community of ours isn't that there are two "camps" who are diametrically opposed, but that this is a very mixed bag! Freddie's recent post highlighted this point well (Frederique).

I do not want to and have no intention of presenting in public as a bloke in a dress. Do I have a problem with guys who do? Not at all. So how does my desire to present as female and try to get as right as I can cause problems for you?

The main reason I CD isn't because I want to wear a dress in public. It is because I want to feel and hopefully look feminine.

My daughter is a fashion designer specialising in male clothing. Every fashion show I go to some designers these days do skirts for men.

It is on the agenda!

Eryn

05-22-2011, 05:25 PM

I don't us as much as representing two camps as much as a wide spectrum. Perhaps something like this:

CDers who don't dress unless they are wearing formal or evening wear and full makeup.
CDers who dress and pass completely as female in public.
CDers who dress privately but still want a completely femme appearance
CDers who wish to present androgynously.
CDers who go out dressed but don't worry about being perceived as female
CDers who dress privately but don't worry about makeup, etc.
CDers who wear bits and pieces of feminine attire in public if they can get away with it
CDers who underdress, wear nightgowns, etc.

(along with many other levels)

As I've said in other posts, I wish that I could just throw on a floral blouse and lipstick and be treated normally in public, just as a GG would. Like most GGs, I dislike full makeup. However, if I have any hope of going out in public I at least have to give the impression of being female and with my looks and build that means I need all the help I can get from Max Factor.

I have a lot of respect for the blokes in dresses, but I don't think that I could bear that level of attention.

Sarah_Jane

05-22-2011, 05:40 PM

You should be able to wear what ever you want. I dress fully just so I feel less conspicuous in public, and it fits my persona better. If you can dress in a skirt while presenting as a male then kudos to you and your massive self esteem!!!!

Katesback

05-22-2011, 05:41 PM

I am going to express something here. Being a woman or a man is a 100% effort. That is one reason I tell TS girls that the sooner they get past the switching back and forth the better.

Now lets talk about a CD. Someone that (in nearly all cases) only presents a woman a tiny portion of the time. I will give you an example. Lets take a perfect static presentation of a woman. Someone that if standing still in just about every viewers eyes fits in perfectly. Then take that same person and animate them. Because they live most of thier lives as a man it does not really matter how great they look because they will still give away major signs of something amis.

From my observations of CDs there are two groups (that venture out into the world). One is the guy in a dress and the other is a guy in a dress that over exadurates what they see as aspects of what a woman is. Neither one really will fit in seamlessly and perhaps that is why one will rarely ever see a CD out in the real world.

So thats what you face. As always I would encourage you to do whatever ya want but just know its not an easy task to take on.

Katie

Cynthia Anne

05-22-2011, 05:44 PM

To each, there own!! I do not judge and don't give a rats if you judge me! I think my signature explains it! Hugs!

Jocelyn Quivers

05-22-2011, 05:53 PM

As one of those all or nothing members of the second I will try and respectfully answer in an unbiased manner.

•Why do you have to be a woman to wear a skirt or dress?

This is the type of person I have always been be it male or female mode. To use the expression there is no "dimmer switch" with me. The light is completely on or off, there is really no in between with anything I do. Therefore as a guy I am in complete guy mode, there are no dresses, skirts, pantyhose, make up or anyting. It's 100% guy. Same with fem mode. When dressing there is no "guy in a dress look." It's everything wig, make up, everything, no partial dressing. Further going into this, I do not feel right or good about myself in girl mode unless I am completely 100% dressed. This maybe has something to do with my "dual gender issues. "In orther words when I look in the mirror I do not want to see a guy staring back.

I will finish this answer by saying. This is my own personal choice, it's not really one I would recommend or suggest how others choose to go about there trans existence.

•How does a man in public in a skirt or dress that is reasonably modest and who has done nothing illegal or immoral damage the image of cross dressers?

I must decline answering this question, for reasons I do not wish to post on a public forum. Sorry, I know I am chickening out with this response, but it's just really do not wish to respnd

•If you have successfully passed or blended and John Q. Public doesn't know you were a CD how has that helped John Q. accept?

I don't go out in public, and I do not pass. If I were to pass (at least 20 years minimum from accomplishing if ever) and go out in public I think it helps in easing peoples fears or misconceptions about cross dresser. The closest example I can use for this was there was a time my wife and I were shopping. We saw a Cross Dresser, she was well dressed, presented herself well, and did not do anything or dress in a manner to draw attention to herself. It was confirmed when my wife was in the restroom and heard the CD talking to her wife or girlfriend in a very male voice that she was a CD.

Maybe she passed 50% of the time, mabye not, we will never know. The way this helps is that possibly for the people, store clerks etc she did pass in front of, maybe they were told at a later time that the broad shouldered lady who bought that dress a few minutes ago was actually a guy. Maybe the clerk who sold the dress may have had issues with cross dressers, but based upon the experience with one who basically passed, presented herself well, and at least attempted to respect the feminine form, might be swayed in her future opionon of crossdressers.

I will conclude by saying Jason, your look, is your look, that is how you choose to present yourself. I do not hold any issues with you or the other "guy in a dress faction" it's your personal choice.

Just as me being one of the "all or nothing must try to pass faction" is my personal choice, it's how I choose and want to present myself, because it is my personal choice.

In a world in which men and women can wear whatever they want without any repercussions. I will still choose strive to always dress 100%.

Kathryn Philips

05-22-2011, 06:11 PM

The members of the CD/TV community falls within a complex spectrum. The lovely Eryn has cited some concrete examples. I personally fall within the

"CDers who dress privately but still want a completely femme appearance". The "privately" being a restriction only caused by my particular family circumstances.

I cannot personally identify with any other type of crossdressing that does not involve wanting to have a female looking face, female voice, female mannerism, and female interests and yet remaining strictly heterosexual in thought and in practice.

YET, I respect anyone who practices crossdressing in a different way or whose reasons are different to mine. In fact, not only I respect but celebrate, the fact that our community is so diverse. If all CDs where like me, wouldn't it be rather dull? For one thing, this great forum would not be possible.

So to all you whose CDing is expessed as retaining a male appearance but wearing a skirt; I celebrate!

Kaz

05-22-2011, 06:13 PM

From my observations of CDs there are two groups (that venture out into the world). One is the guy in a dress and the other is a guy in a dress that over exadurates what they see as aspects of what a woman is. Neither one really will fit in seamlessly and perhaps that is why one will rarely ever see a CD out in the real world.
Katie

Does this mean that those of us who may pass (ie are not in your two extremes) are not on your radar? Think normal distributions...

Alice B

05-22-2011, 06:14 PM

I'll simply say that it what you want that makes you feel good about presenting yourself. We each have our own ideas and goals is to what and who we are. The rest can take a flying you know what.

Tammy V

05-22-2011, 06:57 PM

We are broad group, encompassing everything from someone that just wears panties to a full time transitioning trans woman. You are somewhere in the middle but unique like the rest of us. Express yourself and do what you do, enjoy.

Intertwined

05-22-2011, 07:13 PM

My opinions an beliefs are no more right or wrong than anyone elses, We each have to do what is right for US, if you do nothing but try to keep others happy, you will never be happy yourself.

For me, being transgender means, embracing Both, the masculine and feminine. Although masculine and feminine are opposites, they are also complementary, opposing forces that are always seeking a balance with each other, they are two aspects of one, single reality.

I do not try to look like a female, I try to mix the masculine and feminine looks to come up with my own unique look. This unique look matches how I feel inside, MY gender identity is essentially androgynous, both male and female at the same time or genderqueer.

Jason+

05-22-2011, 07:23 PM

Hi Jason,

I do not want to and have no intention of presenting in public as a bloke in a dress. Do I have a problem with guys who do? Not at all. So how does my desire to present as female and try to get as right as I can cause problems for you?

My daughter is a fashion designer specialising in male clothing. Every fashion show I go to some designers these days do skirts for men.

It is on the agenda!

Your desire to present as female causes no problems for me whatsoever. I have nothing at all against those who do up until they disparage me or anyone else for not feeling the same way. I hope to one day see those designs perhaps cut for those of us who aren't models. :D

From my observations of CDs there are two groups (that venture out into the world). One is the guy in a dress and the other is a guy in a dress that over exadurates what they see as aspects of what a woman is. Neither one really will fit in seamlessly and perhaps that is why one will rarely ever see a CD out in the real world.

So thats what you face. As always I would encourage you to do whatever ya want but just know its not an easy task to take on.

Katie

Most things worth doing aren't easy! Luckily for me seamlessly integrating was burnt out likely in the first or second grade long before I figured any of this out.

Kaz, Eryn and Kathryn

Like most things it is a spectrum, the first group covers the spectrum, the second a specific slice of it. The key part of the second group isn't that they are 100% but that those in that group feel it is the ONLY way to be not just for themselves but for all.

As I've said in other posts, I wish that I could just throw on a floral blouse and lipstick and be treated normally in public, just as a GG would. Like most GGs, I dislike full makeup. However, if I have any hope of going out in public I at least have to give the impression of being female and with my looks and build that means I need all the help I can get from Max Factor.

I have a lot of respect for the blokes in dresses, but I don't think that I could bear that level of attention.

The only way I know for for us to get there is for some of us to go out that way and let John Q. figure it out on their own. Having respect for those who have made the decision to be blokes in dresses lands you squarely not in group 2. :)

As one of those all or nothing members of the second I will try and respectfully answer in an unbiased manner.

•Why do you have to be a woman to wear a skirt or dress?

Further going into this, I do not feel right or good about myself in girl mode unless I am completely 100% dressed. This maybe has something to do with my "dual gender issues. "In orther words when I look in the mirror I do not want to see a guy staring back.

I will finish this answer by saying. This is my own personal choice, it's not really one I would recommend or suggest how others choose to go about there trans existence.

•If you have successfully passed or blended and John Q. Public doesn't know you were a CD how has that helped John Q. accept?

We saw a Cross Dresser, she was well dressed, presented herself well, and did not do anything or dress in a manner to draw attention to herself. It was confirmed when my wife was in the restroom and heard the CD talking to her wife or girlfriend in a very male voice that she was a CD.

Maybe the clerk who sold the dress may have had issues with cross dressers, but based upon the experience with one who basically passed, presented herself well, and at least attempted to respect the feminine form, might be swayed in her future opionon of crossdressers.

I will conclude by saying Jason, your look, is your look, that is how you choose to present yourself. I do not hold any issues with you or the other "guy in a dress faction" it's your personal choice.

Just as me being one of the "all or nothing must try to pass faction" is my personal choice, it's how I choose and want to present myself, because it is my personal choice.

In a world in which men and women can wear whatever they want without any repercussions. I will still choose strive to always dress 100%.

Jocelyn,

You have clearly conveyed that 100% is your personal choice and not the recommended or expected choice for all. Group 2 does not have that same level of mutual respect for a non 100%er. I hope that by being honest and up front with the sales people I interact with about an item being for me rather than furtively skulking around to the back of the store to try something or pretending it isn't for me will leave a more positive impression. So far it has seemed to work well, especially on return trips. Interestingly I don't have dimmer either. Whether I'm in the burliest of Military Men's Uniforms to the daintiest of sundresses I'm still a man.

For me, being transgender means, embracing Both, the masculine and feminine. Although masculine and feminine are opposites, they are also complementary, opposing forces that are always seeking a balance with each other, they are two aspects of one, single reality.

I do not try to look like a female, I try to mix the masculine and feminine looks to come up with my own unique look. This unique look matches how I feel inside, MY gender identity is essentially androgynous, both male and female at the same time or genderqueer.

And you look impressively awesome doing so, nice to make your acquaintance! I've best explained it as reserving the right to pick the better parts of either to make the complete me although that is pretty decidedly male.

GirlieAmanda

05-23-2011, 01:03 AM

Jason I think this really needs to be said. This goes back to your recent threads about meeting the cable guy and shopping while you are a guy in a skirt. I feel compelled to be brutally honest with you. Yes, guys can wear skirts. It can be done in a tasteful manner. This is not really about you being a guy who likes skirts. Its about you purposely trying to be a spectacle.

This only applies to when you step out into the world. What goes on behind closed doors is private business.

Why do you even bother putting on lipstick? If you are just trying to enjoy the feeling of a skirt, then why are you trying and failing to look like a female out in the world? Why do you wear heels? You are essentially trying to be female but stopping at the head thus purposely becoming a spectacle for people to be shocked, appalled, creeped out, afraid, angered, and even violent toward. I know you will say that is society's problem if they can't accept you but you are deliberately mashing your desire to be shocking in their faces. If you want to wear skirts, wear a skirt. Wear it with class and dignity. Look like you mean it. It doesn't matter if you are a model. Anyone can have class and dignity. Don't end up looking like a half-assed CD and continue to reinforce the negative stereotype which most people have toward TG people by going out in something that makes you look A. Terrible B. Creepy and C. Like a spectacle. You are just begging for trouble and reinforcing intolerance looking like this out in the non TG world.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?153567-Saturday-the-cable-repair-man-cookies-and-a-skirt!&highlight=

lil red

05-23-2011, 03:55 AM

Jason let me start off by saying at this point I have read no replies to your questions, so I am just putting my two cents in. As for the second goup that you mentioned ( the all or nothings), they are just as bad as "regular" society, except that they are ok with crosdressing as long as no one knows your not a woman. What a crock of sh*t! We are all inn this forum because we are looking for a place for others like us , a place where we can hang out and tell like minded people about our thoughts. This is a place of acceptance, or it is supposed to be. As far as their thoughts are a person like me cannot be considered a crossdresser because I will never "pass" as a woman, but I AM a crossdresser! As far I am concerned if you like wearing the clothes that are supposed to be for the other gender you are a crossdresser. For those of you that are the all the way - must pass minded people that are offended by this rant - TO BAD! If you can't accept people that are part of your group, then maybe you need a new group. We are all supposed to get along here, but as usual we can't. I for one would love to see the day when I could get up and go to work wearing a skirt or a dress and some nice heels. No need for make up and a wig to try to be someone I am not, just plain short fat me in a skirt or dress with some nice shoes and my nails painted. We have a long way to go before that day will ever show up. It is going to take longer with people in or own group telling us we can't do it! Sorry for the rant just can't stand any type of discrimination!

kitchenette

05-23-2011, 04:46 AM

“Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.” Oscar Wilde

Stephenie S

05-23-2011, 05:48 AM

Wear whatever you want. As long as you are willing to be responsible for your actions, you can pretty much do want you desire.

And men DO wear skirts. Quite successfully I might add. There's a local gentleman whom I see in Barnes and Noble shopping for books. He is a large man. He has a full beard. The last time I saw him he had on a plaid shirt, a leather vest, lace-up work boots with knee socks and a cute pleated navy skirt. NO ONE pays the slightest notice of him. He's just another customer.

Want to wear a skirt? Go ahead. I don't think it's degrading to the community. What community? The crossdressing community? IMHO, he's not acting in a negative manner at all. He's just a guy who wants to wear a skirt. He has EVERY right to wear whatever he wants. There ARE men's fashions with skirts, you know.

Stephie

Jean Ann S

05-23-2011, 11:33 AM

I say do whatever makes you happy

as long as it harms no one else

Jean Ann

ReineD

05-23-2011, 12:49 PM

Why do you even bother putting on lipstick? If you are just trying to enjoy the feeling of a skirt, then why are you trying and failing to look like a female out in the world? Why do you wear heels? You are essentially trying to be female but stopping at the head thus purposely becoming a spectacle for people to be shocked, appalled, creeped out, afraid, angered, and even violent toward.

I understand that you're looking at it from your own perspective. Most everyone does this. But, I don't think you're being fair to Amanda and also I don't know that you've considered what it is about the CDing that might upset different people.

There could be some people who will see Jason and will admire his honesty. Basically, Jason is saying, "This is me and I am who I am". These same people might feel creeped out by seeing a CDer who tries to present as a full on woman with forms, hip pads, wigs, etc. Some people might see all of these things as fetish wear, even if there are no fishnet stockings or tight mini skirts. And then there will be a lot of people who just don't care if people present different than the gender norm, no matter the style of their presentation.

My point is that you shouldn't apply your own perceptions of how the mainstream may or may not feel to the way that Jason chooses to present, especially since he did say that no one treated him with disrespect and I can't help but feel that he just gives off a lot of good vibes that makes all the difference. So, if Jason is OK with his presentation in his own environment, why would you (or anyone else ... I'm not trying to single you out) object?

If someone were asking whether they should present as themselves wearing a tank & skirt, vs. clothing plus forms, wig, etc, I might also advise them to try to blend in with the gender presentation more, but in Jason's case he did present as himself with no unpleasant consequences.

Jamie001

05-23-2011, 02:10 PM

Kaitlyn Michele

05-23-2011, 03:38 PM

Jason

I don't believe your quotes are the prevailing attitude here...

Of course there are lots of differences and opinions, and you can find posts on everything under the sun here, but your OP takes some scattered dislike of your "style" of dressing, and makes it a strawman to argue against..

FWIW i think you are doing something different than what most people call crossdressing...and more power to you..
just keep doing what you are doing, and enjoy it...

Melanie Sykes

05-23-2011, 05:29 PM

I'm 6'5". My wife is only partially accepting, and loves my facial hair, so getting rid of it is out of the question for the time being. My desire to dress is getting stronger I think as I get older; I dream of sashaying around in public, swathed from head to toe in gorgeous femininity the way GGs do every day without an inkling of how lucky they are. I do make myself do it sometimes, but it's only from the neck down and is more scuttle than sashay; I'd like to be able to do it without having to take hours to pluck up the courage first. It's not a matter of massive self-esteem as one poster put it; it's taking control over your fears for a short while, something I find very difficult. It takes a lot of guts to go out as a "guy in a dress" - there's an awful lot at stake - but I'd rather do that than never go out at all. It's such a huge adrenaline rush, and although I've had some strange looks, I've also had some smiles too - some from some very cute GGs ;) Yes, some people are a bit shocked by it, but then what fun is life if there are never any surprises? I often ask myself whether I want society to change and become more accepting of CDers. I think maybe a little more acceptance would be good. But if it was the norm for men to wear skirts and heels, I don't think they would have much appeal for me because those items would cease to be girls clothes. And I can't imagine life without CDing - what on earth would you think about all day?! So a big thumbs-up from me to the guys in skirts - it does take a brave man to do it, and the more of us who do, the less frequently we'll get negative reactions. That said, my being a "guy in a skirt" experiences have all been positive so far.

kendra_gurl

05-23-2011, 05:31 PM

Just like spiked pink hair, nose rings, those awful huge hole spacers in ears, tattoos all over ones arms and neck, the list goes on and on, these are all things we can see everyday in public. People do these things for whatever reason they have and its find if thats what they want. There will always be those of us myself included who will quietly think OMG how could anyone do that and think it looks good. Just because you like it and think it expresses your uniqueness thats cool as long as you accept there are those of us out there who disagree.

A male presenting himself as a male wearing a skirt in the fashion of a kilt is one thing that most would not take offense to in any way but a male presenting as a male wearing lipstick heels and a obvious Lady's skirt while obviously trying to look like a sorry excuse for a crossdresser in my opinion is just disgusting and DOES give all CD"S a bad reputation

Jason+

05-23-2011, 10:10 PM

For the positive responses which have continued to show themselves to be the majority thank you.

Jason I think this really needs to be said. This goes back to your recent threads about meeting the cable guy and shopping while you are a guy in a skirt. I feel compelled to be brutally honest with you. Yes, guys can wear skirts. It can be done in a tasteful manner. This is not really about you being a guy who likes skirts. Its about you purposely trying to be a spectacle.

This only applies to when you step out into the world. What goes on behind closed doors is private business.

Why do you even bother putting on lipstick? If you are just trying to enjoy the feeling of a skirt, then why are you trying and failing to look like a female out in the world? Why do you wear heels? You are essentially trying to be female but stopping at the head thus purposely becoming a spectacle for people to be shocked, appalled, creeped out, afraid, angered, and even violent toward. I know you will say that is society's problem if they can't accept you but you are deliberately mashing your desire to be shocking in their faces. If you want to wear skirts, wear a skirt. Wear it with class and dignity. Look like you mean it. It doesn't matter if you are a model. Anyone can have class and dignity. Don't end up looking like a half-assed CD and continue to reinforce the negative stereotype which most people have toward TG people by going out in something that makes you look A. Terrible B. Creepy and C. Like a spectacle. You are just begging for trouble and reinforcing intolerance looking like this out in the non TG world.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?153567-Saturday-the-cable-repair-man-cookies-and-a-skirt!&highlight=

So If I read you correctly the only reason I would wear what I do is to purposefully shock people and that I am only happy when I have successfully done so? Did it cross you mind that maybe I just liked the color of the lipstick and that it would match the shirt and shoes?

If I had chosen tennis shoes and no lipstick for the outfit would I have suddenly become non-shocking and suitable to go on publicly with my day? Would that remove the "A. Terrible B. Creepy and C. Like a spectacle" blocks? Would the average individual suddenly look and say no I don't need to kick his ass, he's only wearing a skirt but boy if he had on pumps and some makeup....

Since you called my other thread into question lets look at it. You bet! This subject absolutely has to do with one response in particular to that thread although I was resisting calling people out that directly. The attitude expressed there (and continued here) was simply one of the final straws before I decided to post my questions here.

So far you have managed to attack personally and yet at the same time failed to actually answer any of the three questions posed. If I were trying to be woman I would not have needed to ask why I should have to be one. The closest you have come to a credible answer if John Q. Public agrees with you is the charge of terrible/creepy/spectacle. Nobody owes me acceptance or even necessarily tolerance. They owe me keeping their hands to themselves and that's about it. It would be nice if they continue to keep it to themselves if they don't like me but they don't even "owe" that.

Jason

I don't believe your quotes are the prevailing attitude here...

FWIW i think you are doing something different than what most people call crossdressing...and more power to you..
just keep doing what you are doing, and enjoy it...

Kaitlyn,

Point made, given and again conceded. I have already stated it is not the prevalent attitude and in fact comes from a small but vocal and impassioned group. My goal was to look beyond the personal attacks and venom to see if there was something I could learn that I may have missed instead of just completely dismissing them.

Just like spiked pink hair, nose rings, those awful huge hole spacers in ears, tattoos all over ones arms and neck, the list goes on and on, these are all things we can see everyday in public. People do these things for whatever reason they have and its find if thats what they want. There will always be those of us myself included who will quietly think OMG how could anyone do that and think it looks good. Just because you like it and think it expresses your uniqueness thats cool as long as you accept there are those of us out there who disagree.

A male presenting himself as a male wearing a skirt in the fashion of a kilt is one thing that most would not take offense to in any way but a male presenting as a male wearing lipstick heels and a obvious Lady's skirt while obviously trying to look like a sorry excuse for a crossdresser in my opinion is just disgusting and DOES give all CD"S a bad reputation

You are absolutely entitled to disagree. I was hoping that those of you who do would be able to put into useable form why you feel the way you do so that I could learn from it. I get it. I will add your disgusting to the above mentioned terrible/creepy/spectacle and ask you the same question I asked GirlieAmanda. If I had chosen tennis shoes and no lipstick for the outfit would I have suddenly become non-shocking and suitable to go on publicly with my day? Would that remove the disgusting block? Would the average individual suddenly look and say no I don't need to kick his ass, he's only wearing a skirt but boy if he had on pumps and some makeup....

You've restated it gives all CD's a bad name but failed to even attempt to answer the actual question of how or why it does?

Pythos

05-23-2011, 10:20 PM

It depends on how badly done the makeup is kendra. I have to say there are some responses here that should be re read by their posters, they come of quite...wrong.

There was one where it was stated "you wear women's clothing, but present as a male" or something along those lines, but state it in a very negative way. Excuse me, this IS what women do. The wear clothing based off of male styles, but present as women. Why is it when a male does the exact same thing he is "ugly" or "a joke" or so on. Now if there is makeup, and it is in a clownish manner, I can see people having issues. But if the makeup is well done, why is that such an issue?

I have in the past worn skirts in male mode, with lipstick and eyeliner. Recently I just wore eyeliner in a skirted outfit. I thought I presented a good image.

Am I presenting a negative image with this outfit? I wore this for a friend's wedding, was received quite well.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5267/5776071067_db883c7be3.jpg

I am indeed a male in a cheongasm, the gown was fitted for my body.

Sarah_Jane

05-23-2011, 10:23 PM

we are all the modern day lepers of society with less acceptance than gay and lesbian peoples. i find the judgment and condemnation within our own fractured community somewhat disheartening :(

if anyone would endorse such actions you would think it would be us cd'ers. . . . . . who in the hell are we to judge others?

ReineD

05-23-2011, 11:03 PM

Sarah_Jane

05-23-2011, 11:12 PM

Sarah, please don't take it so hard. The one faction that judges the other does so because of fear. I think it's because many CDers want to be able to be themselves out in public without being judged, they're afraid they will lose loved ones, friends, jobs, etc, and they try to make it better for everyone by making up rules they think will make a positive difference. They suffer the discrimination as much as anyone else, they have to live with the fallout of stereotypes too, and they're just trying to figure out why there is such bias and what to do in order to neutralize the situation. I honestly don't think it's done to put down anyone within the community.

Now I'm not trying to start crap but what you're saying is that we're worried about our image?!? Really?!? I'm just being real here, our image is that we are the lowest dregs of society, a dude in a skirt is not going to change that. Many people here seem to forget what they really are, again, not trying to be harsh, just honest, we're all just dudes in skirts!

ReineD

05-23-2011, 11:33 PM

Now I'm not trying to start crap but what you're saying is that we're worried about our image?!? Really?!? I'm just being real here, our image is that we are the lowest dregs of society, a dude in a skirt is not going to change that. Many people here seem to forget what they really are, again, not trying to be harsh, just honest, we're all just dudes in skirts!

Here's where I disagree with you and why I asked you to try not to take it so hard. I don't think CDers are the lowest dregs of society or like lepers as you said earlier. I also think most people would agree with me. It's true there are people who don't get it and who might think it odd, but everyone I know who goes out dressed including my SO and I get treated with respect.

So yeah, maybe some of you are dudes in skirts, but that's OK. Dudes in skirts don't have horns and pronged tails. :)

GirlieAmanda

05-24-2011, 01:08 AM

I will answer your questions. Not sure why I am wasting my words again but...Ok, yes, you would have been better off with sneakers and no lipstick. It would make a big difference. It takes you from looking unstable and scary to maybe not so bad. This is not so much about you wearing the clothes, its how and what you are wearing in public. Every picture I have seen is you in... and I am sorry to say...makes you look comical. A rumpled khaki skirt with a form-fitting tank, A form-fitting beigey gray dress that looks like.... OK I can't continue this is too mean sounding. Why are you wearing so many tight dresses and clothes? You have to wear what fits your body. There are so many sizes and styles for larger women OR MEN. Flowing, draping, tighter-in-the-right-places clothing that would make you look more like a man who wears a dress or skirt WELL, and less like a mess.

That leads me right into a direct answer to your question of why you are damaging the perception of TGs. Again, done well, I am all for you being in a skirt or even a dress. Just do it with class and some dignity. When you go out in the world in...lets just take the rumpled khaki skirt and too tight tank with the lipstick and pumps look for example. The regular people out there will see you coming and most likely think "Now THAT is the reason why those people are disgusting!" You give them a clear visual confirmation that all of us just want to strut around most likely stunning and scaring people or at least being a laughing stock. There are TS girls who go through SO much including real pain to transform themselves and blend in with society. So much effort and care go into their appearance. Maybe they still have a part that is not quite all woman and maybe they manage to pull it off still. Maybe a person comes along and notices this and figures out that she was not born a female but thinks she looks great, she is not bothering or harming anyone, she is blending into the real world, she is contributing to society and is very pleasant. They may just start to change their perception of TG people. They may tell others about the woman they met who really was just like them and that there is nothing to be afraid or concerned about. This is how acceptance realistically starts and continues. One positive experience at a time. Then you come along strutting your stuff in comical fashion like a road grader and begin to undo that acceptance. People don't want to be disturbed or shocked at the grocery store. They are just there trying to get their food and get home to their families or life. They don't want to have to worry about their safety because of a disturbing looking person is coming near them and their kids. I know life is not always hum drum and colorful people are refreshing...but you don't look refreshing.

John Q. Public will probably find out somehow or at some point that a CD or even a TS may not be a real woman or was not born a woman no matter how good they look. In that moment of realization, how that CD or TS is looking or acting goes a long way to change perceptions even if only slightly.

You don't have to be a woman to wear a dress. Its done very well and very fashionably all over the world. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://trendland.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/men-in-skirts_street-600x475.jpg&imgrefurl=http://trendland.net/2010/06/30/men-in-skirts-from-the-runway-to-the-street/&usg=__VuGWWQfRIOb-X8EZnvfb5segbdE=&h=475&w=600&sz=61&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=WT2PnC2vSjKwPM:&tbnh=146&tbnw=179&ei=bkXbTaWOKYXWgQf_0bTtDw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmen%2Bin%2Bskirts%26hl%3Den%26client% 3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3Dvx5%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D894%26bih%3D828%26tbm%3Disch%2 6prmd%3Divnsl&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=281&vpy=521&dur=79&hovh=200&hovw=252&tx=164&ty=213&sqi=2&page=1&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:16,s:0

Sara Jessica

05-24-2011, 09:33 AM

1. Why do you have to be a woman to wear a skirt or dress?

One doesn't, simple as that.

2. How does a man in public in a skirt or dress that is reasonably modest and who has done nothing illegal or immoral damage the image of cross dressers?

This is a tricky one, I'll elaborate below.

3. If you have successfully passed or blended and John Q. Public doesn't know you were a CD how has that helped John Q. accept?

Speaking for myself, I expect that John Q. & Jane Q. Public will recognize me as being TG and as I have often said, my hope is that they might say "I see her for what she is and she pulls it off pretty darned well" (emphasis on she and her).

Maybe a person comes along and notices this and figures out that she was not born a female but thinks she looks great, she is not bothering or harming anyone, she is blending into the real world, she is contributing to society and is very pleasant. They may just start to change their perception of TG people. They may tell others about the woman they met who really was just like them and that there is nothing to be afraid or concerned about. This is how acceptance realistically starts and continues. One positive experience at a time.

With this excerpt, Amanda really hit on what I am saying in #3 above. I could have easily written it myself.

Which allows me to circle back to offer my insight on #2...

First of all, there are differences in the genders which I'm all good with. I don't subscribe to a theory that at any time soon women's and men's fashions will somehow blur into an androgynous norm. Yet I happen to think there is something cool about people like Jason Pythos & Ryan in particular who present in such a way to incorporate skirts into their male appearance. Might their bold steps help blaze a trail? Nothing says it can't happen but at the end of the day, I think most men simply don't give a second thought to the clothes they typically wear and the last thing they want to see hanging in the men's department is a skirt.

That said, I do draw a line personally with what one might call a genderf#*^ presentation. Something such as a frilly dress with facial hair and no makeup out in public does have an inherent shock value no matter how you slice it and even though this person isn't hurting anyone or doing something illegal, it seems there is a better chance for harm to the perception of our community rather than help.

It's about respect for women, and respect for those in our community who work so hard to live their lives full time as females, being true to their inner being. If one is part time, whether CD or otherwise, if the public's reactions start to get you down, take the girl off, or take away the clothing, and all can be right in your world again. However, for those who are full time, this is not an option and the daily looks, snickers, comments, etc. can be daunting, I'm sure.

Therefore, in honor of those who go at this full time, and particularly in honor of a friend of mine who made a run at doing so but at the end of the day she lost her life, I personally present myself as best I am able so that the public impact will be, as Amanda said, one positive experience at a time.

Pythos

05-24-2011, 09:41 AM

Heh, except for very very rare circumstances I view frilly, or babydoll dresses as quite insulting to women. I personally dislike them greatly. I also dislike the "sissy" look. If the guy wearing that style has hairy legs and arms and a big soup catcher, it is all the more awful, and I do also think it is insulting to women.

I will say though. It does take a different kind of courage to go out as a male in obviously feminine clothing. At least in my case though, I try to do it in a respectful manner.

Jamie001

05-24-2011, 10:50 AM

kendra_gurl

05-24-2011, 11:23 AM

Am I presenting a negative image with this outfit? I wore this for a friend's wedding, was received quite well.

http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww102/Pythos1/Bill1.jpg

I am indeed a male in a cheongasm, the gown was fitted for my body.

Actually yes In my opinion you are presenting a negative image in that outfit. As you claim to be received quite well..perhaps! but that may have just been out of respect for your friends wedding. I don't claim to have any understand of why all of us do what we do all I am saying is that for myself as a Crossdresser, Gender Bender,Female Impersonator, what ever the label givin me, even I would have to hide my inner laughter seeing you had I been in attendance there.

I just don't get it but then there all all sorts of things in this world I just don't get. Like those who sold everything because they were so sure judgment day was 6:PM last Saturday

Come on people we should all take a look at ourselves in the mirror or your photos. I applaud those who have never gone out in public because their own common scense tells them they can't pass at all and have the decency to not purposely try to offend others just to gain attention.

Individual freedoms are taking over common sense all over the world and personally too many people are abusing that freedom. In some places in this world women can still be stoned to death if they even show their face in public. Be thankful of how fortunate most of us are.

GirlieAmanda

05-24-2011, 03:11 PM

You know Pythos, I think I like you in that dress in the link above. It is an incredible dress! I love it. You are definitely MUCH MUCH more dignified looking than Jason. This is a tough one. I am going to say you are OK. Its SUCH a great dress. So asian and fitted so well. Possibly a tiny bit snug but no matter, at least you don't look like you are smuggling a dwarf in your abdomen. This is what I am talking about when I say if you are going to wear it, WEAR IT WELL! It is bold and daring but I feel its not offensive. I actually think it looks cool. It has black as the main color in the design which I think more masculine and the black boots temper the outfit too. I respect you for being daring and close to the line but still having an air of class and dignity.

kendra_gurl

05-24-2011, 03:46 PM

The areas I would like to see addressed by the second group are:

Why do you have to be a woman to wear a skirt or dress?
How does a man in public in a skirt or dress that is reasonably modest and who has done nothing illegal or immoral damage the image of cross dressers?
If you have successfully passed or blended and John Q. Public doesn't know you were a CD how has that helped John Q. accept?

.
#1 as I have mentioned earlier you don't if its presented in a way that does not make you look like a guy mocking a female in a skirt or dress. Just as female clothing is manufactured for females in male styles there are no dresses or skirts designed to be worn by males other than those sold exclusively for the crossdressing community for fit to look more feminine on a male body.

#2 wearing a skirt or dress in public while still TRYING to be OBVIOUS that your a male just draws attention to yourself as that you either have now reguard for what others think of you or that you are just odd or weird, thus stereotyping all crossdressers as odd or weird.

#3 While those of us who do try to pass in public would love to think we do 100% of the time that is just not reality. I my opinion as long as most people who see me in public and have any doubt as to my gender could reasonably asume or question that perhaps I USED to be a man or that I make one damn good looking girl to be a guy in a dress I think that helps sociaty to accept ME for what I am

A question for you. Can you please explain why? what is the attraction to not make the attempt to look your feminine best while wearing a feminine skirt or a dress? I know there are some GG's out there in the world who are not very feminine looking at all and some might say they would even be ugly as a man but I would bet the farm that these women don't wish to be this way. So again please explain to me why you would want to be seen in public as a guy in a dress or skirt in reality looking like a very unattractive female

GirlieAmanda

05-24-2011, 04:15 PM

#3 While those of us who do try to pass in public would love to think we do 100% of the time that is just not reality. I my opinion as long as most people who see me in public and have any doubt as to my gender could reasonably asume or question that perhaps I USED to be a man or that I make one damn good looking girl to be a guy in a dress I think that helps sociaty to accept ME for what I am

This is what I use to gather courage to go out as a female. These are my thoughts exactly. As long as I present at worst, a shadow of a doubt to at best, full on passability, I have done what I set out to do. People like Kendra and I put in the time, effort and care to look presentable and classy. I honor the female gender, form and mystique. I don't disparage it by comically parading around essentially mocking women and purposely antagonizing people.

kimdl93

05-24-2011, 04:45 PM

I don't know if I could ever really pass, but I would hope to at least blend in, not necessarily as an attractive woman, but as feminine as possible. I certainly would never want my appearance to appear to be mocking or denigrating either women or those who aspire to present as women.

lil red

05-24-2011, 04:48 PM

If you want to read about men wearing skirts as men, then go to the skirtcafe.org webpage. This site is about men wearing skirts as men. It is not about crossdressing, so if you go there please don't discuss crossdressing as that is not the goal/charter of the website. You will see that many men in varying degrees of appearance from masculine skirt wearing men to feminine skirt wearing men are able to incorporate skirt wearing into their everyday lives.

So let me get this straight - a man wearing a skirt is not crossdressing? Which dictionary is that in? As I have stated, i will never pass so am I not a crossdresser? YES I AM, I am not however a female impersonator! That PROFESSION is the only reason that you need to "pass" to be accepted! Maybe I am in the wrong group here but, I am a crossdresser because I dress in the "other genders clothes". This has turned into a hornets nest because members of our own community can not accept all of the other members. It is 2011, when are we all going to put our discrimination and get along? If the members of this forum can't get along, how do we ever expect outsiders (for lack of a better term) to get along with us?

Kaitlyn Michele

05-24-2011, 04:55 PM

Pythos!! you look great in that !!!
most guys could not pull that off.. cheers

sometimes_miss

05-24-2011, 05:00 PM

The main reason I CD isn't because I want to wear a dress in public. It is because I want to feel and hopefully look feminine.
Same here. As I don't see any particular advantage in wearing dresses or skirts (and women will back that up), my own theory of men who say that they want to wear dresses 'as men', well it's rather an odd behavior that doesn't make a lot of sense; there're a lot of psychological mechanisms going on, and I suppose in order to deny our inherent desire to be female we use all kinds of arguments to say it's something else, simply because we were brought up to believe that the worst thing any boy can be is feminine in any way (just look at all the derotory comments military and sports leaders use to insult their employees, 'ladies', 'girls', are the insults they pile on when a guy isn't behaving tough enough, etc.. Women who want to be comfortable wear slacks, or shorts. They wear dresses and skirts to emphasize their femininity, and in almost all cases, to appear sexually attractive (to men, which is why they automatically assume any guy imitating that behavior is also trying to attract men, and that's why so many assume we are gay).

Intertwined wrote: I do not try to look like a female, I try to mix the masculine and feminine looks to come up with my own unique look.
And yet, the difference between you chosen pic to upload and the very, very feminine avatar speaks volumes.

And, of course, anyone who doesn't fail the pencil test and ever wears a bra, well that's pretty self explanatory.

kendra_gurl

05-24-2011, 05:18 PM

This has turned into a hornets nest because members of our own community can not accept all of the other members. It is 2011, when are we all going to put our discrimination and get along? If the members of this forum can't get along, how do we ever expect outsiders (for lack of a better term) to get along with us?

I don't feel like we are not getting along. The OP ask some specific questions about why we feel the way we do about men in skirts and dresses. Honest open discussion about this is very informative to gain an understanding of others thoughts

Since the opinions of everyone are just opinions (mine included) there realy are no wrong answers to these questions.

So far no one is saying or asking anyone to STOP presenting as they want but to just try explain to us how they feel about those who do

lil red

05-24-2011, 05:28 PM

First off - Pythos and Intertwined you both look great. Second - I agree there is nothing wrong with good open and honest discussion Kendera, I am just participating, that is all. I do not stand for any type of discrimination and that is why I can't wrap my head around the fact that people in this forum think those of us that don't go all out or pass are not crossdressers. I am not sorry if I upset anyone as others have upset me. I have lost many friends sticking up for the rights of others to be the way they want to, and have lost and gained some by defending myself. That is all I am doing here, defending myself and others rights do not go 100% of the way.

gulliver

05-24-2011, 06:03 PM

Nice one for raising this issue - it's one I've discussed with myself for years :)
Before I begin, some background information -
What am I by society's definitions ?
M2F Transsexual - as assessed by a gender dysphoria specialist;
Do I intend to transition ?
No;
Am I homosexual ?
No - if I did transition, I'd then be a lesbian !
Have I used hormones ?
Yes - and have a nice pair to show for it !
Do I wear clothing intended for the 'other' gender ?
Of course;
Do I try to 'pass' ?
Definitely not - I don't feel the need to, and wouldn't succeed if I did try !
How do I describe myself ?
As a 'birl' - www.birl.org comes the closest to describing the me that is me :)

I have never understood why I can't wear whatever I want to wear without the fear of ridicule, usually by insecure males - they are only clothes, after all.
Some people here seem to agree with that, while others vehemently disagree. GirlieAmanda mentions "going out in something that makes you look A. Terrible B. Creepy and C. Like a spectacle.". I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but I feel exactly the same about men that go out trying to look like women - I find it creepy, don't think it looks good, and I feel sorry for them. I've also never understood the need for an alternate, feminine persona - in the medical world, that's called schizophrenia.
Friends have asked me why I don't wear a wig and 'go the whole hog'. The answer is very simple - it would be false, and not the real me. Why should I pretend to be something I'm not ?
The fact is I wear what I want to wear most of the time, when I can bear to put up with the fear of abuse. The plus side of it is that when I do, I get complemented on my style, not only by friends but also sometimes by strangers. People have also said that my style suits me - and that can only be good, considering that the reactions that I expect from society are the root cause of my lifelong fight against clinical/chronic depression - at different times, both diagnosed and undiagnosed.
I don't ever dress to 'shock' people or for any need for 'exhibitionism', but because I like wearing the clothes I wear, and I feel good wearing them - and contrary to what someone else said, skirts do fit well !

Like I said at the start, nice one for raising the issue - the society we live in is out of balance gender/sex-wise, with too much weight on the patriarchal side and discussions like this need to be had not only here, but in the wider world.

kendra_gurl

05-24-2011, 06:09 PM

lil red
I just reread the post your speaking about and I think you may have missunderstood it. The referance was to a site men wearing skirts as men and that the members there do no consider themselves as crossdressers is what that site is about. I thik it was just a warning that if you go there you will be making a mistake to call them crossdressers.

Perhaps that is the thinking of the OP of this thread.

I applaud you for your defending others rights but you have not answered the op's 3 questions. It might help if you could answer those questions yourself rather than getting upsetr with those who do.

I have said several time that all of us here are at different stages of crossdress but certainly have never suggested anyone here is not a crossdresser just because they are not 100%

BRANDYJ

05-24-2011, 06:32 PM

I am almost afraid to respond to this thread honestly for fear of those that like to go out in public dressed in any odd, weird, unusual, sloppy, shabby fashion that they want to will start throwing flames simply because I don't like the look or in some cases, the implications of why a guy would do it to begin with. But like everyone else, I have my own preference in fashion be it male or female. I think a man that wears a dress of a skirt in public without trying to present as a female looks ridiculous and in some cases, ugly. When at home alone, if I put on most anything feminine, other then maybe panties, without makeup, wig and other things that would make me look more like a female, I think that even I myself looks ridiculous. So I am not singling out anyone as being ridiculous. But would I dare go out in public looking like a fool? No and hell no! But then again, you won't see me out in public with those stupid looking male pants that are to long to be shorts and to short to be pants. Those baggy things that even some guys my age are foolish enough to wear. YUK! Now add the kids that are now wearing skull caps down over their ears and down over their brow line...or the dump look of a ball cap worn backwards; Or worse yet, worn with the brim off to one side. Why oh why do some people think it's ok to look to stupid, ugly and clownish? Let's not even talk about the 6 sizes to big pants worn below the hip line showing a guy's ugly boxer shorts! Or just as bad, a girl wearing very low cut jeans; so low you see the thin straps of her thong going around her waist and maybe see about 2 inchs of the thin piece between the cheeks of her butt! GROSS! To make all of this worse, some of these people have tattoos all over their arms, legs and back. Now add the weird tongue piercing, nose piercing, brow piercing and more.
So far, anyone reading this clearly knows all the so called fashion looks I can't stand. Now I ask you, does that make me bad? Of course not! It's personal preference plain and simple. Now some of these weird images I posed above are enough for me to not even want to befriend, know or hire someone that would dress like I pointed out . Sorry, I just don't do well or get along well with weird looking people that don't have enough self respect to consider what others may think of them. So this would include a man that presents as a man in a dress or skirt in public. Now add those that have facial hair and other wise dress in women's clothes. Now ya got double ridiculous and ugly! So as a man or a crossdresser, I would not be seen in public with them. See, I am one of those that does care what others think of me.

So if you dress as I described above, be prepared to be laughed at, have heads turning, shaking and be the brunt of jokes. It is your right. That much I agree with. I just don't want to be you... sorry.
I mean... some things just need to remain in the closet and are unfit for the public eye.

I agree with GirlieAmanda and Kendra_gurl Both expressed my sentiments better then I did.

Pythos

05-24-2011, 09:18 PM

Well some of the responses in here demonstrate the lousy mentality that led me to go full fem with some of my stuff, though I have not stepped outside the house's boundaries in such.

So when I wear the gown as a male, a gown that was fitted for me, and cannot be worn by a woman due to the fit of the gown, I am insulting women. Really? That is amazing. So I as a male should not feel insulted when I see a women dressed just like a rotund little cowbow. (saw this. She was in jeans, shirt, loose shirt, tan vest, and I kid you not, cowboy boots, and a 10 gallon hat....white). I wasn't, I was more like "That is cool, and she looks like she is her own self, even when lead of a pipe laying crew". Which she was. She was directing a crew as they laid pipe.

ReineD

05-24-2011, 10:39 PM

Well, just to put all of this in perspective I'd like to point something out. There are very strong opinions among the forum members as to which style of presentation is best for public presentation and it seems to be quite divisive, with plenty of criticism and strong opinions.

I just want to point out that the members of this community aren't the only ones who do this. You also see it everywhere else. Consider as an extreme example the hippies during the 60s who looked at business men with their pompous suits, starched shirts & conservative ties with scorn. And consider the business people looking at long haired, flower clad hippies with disdain ... and fear. Next, imagine what prim and proper church ladies in their Sunday best, demure and modest high necked dresses with prim flowered hats might think of the more cosmopolitan, low-cut and mini dress wearing women who dye their hair, have breast implants, send their kids to boarding schools, and drink cocktails. And what do these city ladies think of the country bumpkins?

You see it in high schools. The jocks vs. the nerds, vs. the goths, vs. the hippies, vs. the emos, and each have their own look and genre, and prejudice.

I could go on and on. I'm not quite sure what my point is, other than many people misunderstand others who have different backgrounds, interests, and values. And that's just within one race. It gets even worse when you add other ethnicities and cultures. I suppose the members of this forum are no different than anyone else.

-b7qaSxuZUg

ChanDelle

05-24-2011, 10:59 PM

Wow, Reine! That video left me speechless. I'm a dreamer too...but sometimes I suppose ones dream can be another's nightmare? In my final evaluation, each to his/her own and please, God, give me the grace to accept them...

ChanDelle

busker

05-24-2011, 11:12 PM

Babeba

05-24-2011, 11:23 PM

Its SUCH a great dress. So asian and fitted so well. Possibly a tiny bit snug but no matter, at least you don't look like you are smuggling a dwarf in your abdomen.

So you're saying that the problem isn't with being a man in a skirt, but with being fat and unfashionable? Ouch.

You know, I'm aware that many CDers are all about looks... but I hadn't realized how superficial that can make a person. Do you think it's fair to assume that Joe Public is going to be as concerned with looks as some of the board members here are? I sure don't. That's not being very fair to Joe Public's sense of class and decency.

A lot of this issue is all a matter of perspective... and I don't for one minute think that John Q. Average is going to look at a stylish crossdresser on a day when they don't fully pass and think, 'oh but they try so hard so it's alright.' They're going to have the same reaction they will have to Jason in his outfit, if they notice or figure it out at all.

AllieGG

05-24-2011, 11:36 PM

Possibly a tiny bit snug but no matter, at least you don't look like you are smuggling a dwarf in your abdomen.

Amanda, I sure as hell hope your beef with Jason is not about weight, as Babeba pointed out. I think you made your point, a long time ago. Your remarks are bordering on cruel now.

ReineD

05-24-2011, 11:43 PM

OK, everyone. The insults stop now.

This thread will be closed if anyone else after this post doesn't state their point with respect.

Sue101

05-25-2011, 05:33 AM

Jason

Kudos to you for being yourself and asking questions about why your presentation generates animosity in some members. These questions are worth asking and the thread has been educational to me.

I have to shrug my shoulders when I saw your picture. What you are doing is no different from what large numbers of women do on a daily basis. Yes I know its the old double standard again but how come you are getting heaps of grief in a crossdressing forum of all places. That is my first insight. I thought all crossdressers want to tear down the double standard and allow men to wear what they want. Now I see I was wrong. Some want to preserve the double standard, they want feminine clothes to be worn only be women. Any man who wants to join the club must dress to the nines and do their utmost to pass. Anything less is apparently disrespectful to women. I dont believe for a second that any GG thinks this way but there you have it.

My second insisght is the whole psychology behind the all or nothing approach. I can understand transsexuals believing in the binary sysyem and needing to completly switch over but crossdressers are men who want to explore feminine roles. There should be openness to blurring of the gender divide so why do some feel an overwhelming need to pass. My guess would be it is because they feel guilt and shame thinking of themselves as men in dresses so they have to fool themselves and others into believing they are real women. The male gender indoctrination convinces men that only women can feel and act feminine so they must become one to sidestep the guilt of being a man.

Jason - in order to do what you do is not just personally brave but also it shows that you have cast aside the male upbringing designed to make you make you feel guilt and shame. Your behavior challenges the double standard rather than supporting it.

As for the notion that your look makes it harder for crossdressers to gain public acceptance, I don't buy it. Your look is honest and your clothes normal. Nobody has to second guess you are a male interested in exploring feminine dress. On the other hand I wonder how many people have approached what they thought was a woman only to discover otherwise. That situation can easily create feelings of anger that the crossdresser was trying to fool them.

Engendered

05-25-2011, 05:49 AM

Mmm, I have to pick up a point made a little earlier. :) Someone said that people react to all crossdressers equally, regardless of their appearance. I know from first-hand experience that this is far from the case. If this was true, then there's no reason for any CD (or any non-CDer in fact) to make any effort with their look. The better you look, the more comfortable people are around you. A few friends of mine even talked about this once. They feel like (because I present in a very naturalistic way) they can almost forget that I'm CDing at all, and have very little fears walking with me in public. (Fears for me, fears for themselves by association...I encourage my friends to be forthright with what they think and not mollycoddle me with blanket acceptance.) If I decided to dress in complete sissy garb, or overtly drag queenish, or was just my guy self in a tank top and skirt: I'd be the same person, they could have no complaints about how I chose to dress, but *they* would feel uncomfortable being around me in public. Is that their problem? Sure. But if I am going to crossdress, I can at least make some effort to do it as well as I can, whilst not compromising my own sense of style.
I'm also sure that many SOs would prefer their CD partner to "look the best they can" when going out in public. "Prefer" being the key word. Look, whether we think it should be a factor or not, seems to be quite important in society.

This post doesn't really speak to the issues raised in the OP, and my feelings on that are complex. We all have our own sense of style, and our own likes and dislikes. I may reply again. I think Pythos looks great in that picture. I think if you're going to be a sissy in public, be the best damned sissy you can be. Take the look, and try to make it fashionable. The japanese have got that angle figured out better than most. If you're going to be a guy in a dress, own the look as pythos does. If you're going to be full-on en-femme, get advice from people, and be the best you can be.

I don't like the false compliments people receive on this site, although it can be quite hard to be critical without being mean. Reinforcing that a certain look is great, when you don't really think it is, does nobody any good. That's not support. Unfortunately, giving constructive criticism can be one of the hardest things to do, so I do understand, and I'm no saint when it comes to that.

Tina B.

05-25-2011, 07:42 AM

Jason, thirty some odd years ago, not long after I had come out to my wife. We where out shopping for large pillows, for a hippy style pad we where living in at the time. Walked into a store that sold this Hugh pillows, and a guy in a tee shirt and a blue wool pencil skirt waited on us. No make up or heels or anything else feminine just that skirt, I thought he was so cool, and so brave, I've never forgot him, so you go on with your bad self and enjoy, you just might inspire some young closet queen, who knows.
Tina B.

sissystephanie

05-25-2011, 03:59 PM

My answer to the question asked in the OP is simple. As far as I am concerned, men or women can wear what they want as long as they are decently covered. It is not up to me, or anyone else on this forum or anywhere to tell someone how to dress! That is a private thing, for only the person involved!!

For many years my late wife fixed my wig and did my makeup, so Stephanie could go out in public. When she did those things Stephanie was very feminine! My dear wife even taught me how to move like a lady, so I could truly pass. And I did pass, easily!! Then my dear wife died, some years ago. Since I am not good at all in fixing my wig or putting on makeup, I jusy decided to become a feminine guy!! I go out in public almost every day wearing a skirt, or occasionaly a dress, and other feminine apparel! But with no wig and no makeup! And in the past 6 years I think I have heard one (1) negative comment!! I have had lots of compliments on my outfits, from both men and women!! And I have been asked many times where I bought my skirt or top!! If you don't dress in an outlandish way, the vast majority of people don't care what you are wearing!

Of course, your attitude is also a major factor. For most of the almost 70 years that I have been crossdressing, my attitude has been that I dress to please myself, not other people. If you don't like what I wear, look somewhere else!! Clothing is a very personal choice, and should not be judged by others! Unless it is maybe too raunchy, or exposes too much!! I never dress that way, and have no intention of doing so!! Wear your clothes proudly, whether they are male or female!!

kendra_gurl

05-25-2011, 04:18 PM

Reine. I think the tune Imagine is a very pleasant tune to listen too but I just can't agree with its lyrics.

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

I mean really no heaven no hell no country no religion no possessions think about it. sounds like the Plan of communism I will keep my right to worship and work hard in my business to better myself from those who don't

GirlieAmanda

05-25-2011, 04:26 PM

I am sorry if I seemed cruel in my remarks. I am always very nice and supportive in my comments and try to bring love and undestanding to all. This thread really brought out anger in me. It happens sometimes even to Miss Nice. Jason...Do what you want.

lil red

05-25-2011, 04:53 PM

In response to a comment made to me: I don't have to answer the three questions as I am in the firs group. Now I read that fat people shouldn't crossdress: I give up my crossdressing card I guess: I am short, fat, and never gunna pass! By the comments in this post I am not allowed to be a crossdresser. Maybe the several vain people that think they are above the rest of the members of this forum need to have their face slapped by the rest of us: for the record, there are more of us then there are of you! Why bring us down because we don't look like women? We are crossdressers not female impersonators. Being a crossdresser does not require "passing" but the later does! If you are all so perfect why not create your own forum and not let us "losers who don't pass" join? Gotta stop, to peeved!

ReineD

05-25-2011, 05:14 PM

I mean really no heaven no hell no country no religion no possessions think about it. sounds like the Plan of communism I will keep my right to worship and work hard in my business to better myself from those who don't

You have to look at it symbolically, not literally! :) It's about all the things that can be divisive when we let them. What would happen if we had a universal consciousness about it all and stopped arguing about the small details? I interpret his meaning as live and let live because at the end of it all, our fundamental differences are immaterial.

He did admit to being a dreamer. :D

Being a crossdresser does not require "passing" but the later does! If you are all so perfect why not create your own forum and not let us "losers who don't pass" join? Gotta stop, to peeved!

LIL Red .. opinions got carried away in this thread and things were said that can easily be misinterpreted. See post #53 and let's just move on now. :hugs:

kendra_gurl

05-25-2011, 05:38 PM

Wow I think I will just give up on this thread so no one else gets peeved . It just seems some people take things so out of context when it is written right here and can easily be re-read if full context. Nuff said

lil red

05-25-2011, 05:40 PM

LIL Red .. opinions got carried away in this thread and things were said that can easily be misinterpreted. See post #53 and let's just move on now. :hugs:[/QUOTE]

That is why I said gotta stop. That's all! Thank You!

Jason+

05-25-2011, 10:28 PM

Anger, high emotion, people incredibly passionate about what they feel and why whether they were for or against. Buried in that were some good points. I had to wait until tonight to post to keep my emotions in check and not miss the couple of good things that came out through those that did answer.

The rumpled skirt should have gotten fed to at least the de-wrinkle cycle of the dryer. If lipstick is the dividing line between some of the comments and not so bad then perhaps it is some powerful stuff and deserves being considered left off of what I am after. The point was not don't do it rather it was do it well if you are going to. We may not agree on style but that's okay. I am overweight, it's a fact whether it's mentioned with tact or not. Everything I own no matter what half of the closet it is from would look better though maybe not stylish if I weighed less and that's an ongoing battle.

I don't buy or wear what I do to mock or intentionally shock anyone. I understand that it can and does. Out of the suggestions and answers I came up with this. I found a shirt less snug than the tank but the same color and tried it with pumps and with tennis shoes. Are either of the second two better than the first?

GirlieAmanda

05-25-2011, 11:25 PM

I am glad we talked Jason. I understand you better now. My opinion on your latest photos..I think the last one is a LOT better. The shirt is better. The sneakers just temper the outfit enough that it almost seems kinda cool in a way. I mean that! Hell you could even wear some pink or black girlie sneakers really. That would be cool and cute. Maybe some black subtle girlie sandals too.

ReineD

05-25-2011, 11:39 PM

Aww, Amanda & Jason, the way the two of you are coming together on this just gave me a huge rush of warm fuzzies! :)

Who says this forum isn't supportive? :hugs:

We just happen to bicker sometimes, just like any other family. lol

Duana

05-26-2011, 01:14 AM

Gigi10 (my beautiful, intelligent SO) and I have been discussing this thread for 2 days. We started out in 2 completely different camps. I was fully aligned with Amanda and Kendra while she was totally supportive of Jason. But after several debates and her threatening to kick my ass, she flipped me completely.

It gets worse. On a dare, tonight we had dinner at a Buffalo Wild Wings. The baseball game was on and the place was full of macho "sports bar" type guys eating wings and drinking beer. I proudly marched in there in some tight, very feminine capris, shaved legs, painted toe nails, jewel encrusted flip flops, a black girlie t-shirt with a big gold flower on the front, and God help me, my boy face! Not a bit of makeup, lipstick, wig, nothing.

I got the message loud and clear. It ain't about them. Its about me and how I feel. I felt great. I felt excited. I felt comfortable. And strangely enough, It didn't seem to bother a soul.

Did they notice me? Sure. Did they stare? Not really. Did anyone pass out, get violent, run from the place screaming, "There's a faggot tranny in here!" Nope. Everyone ate their wings, drank their beer and watched the game.

Jason, do whatever makes you feel great. I know I will.

Sue101

05-26-2011, 02:56 AM

Duana

There is nothing like the threat of having common sense knocked into you for you to see the light before the pain starts!

I wonder how many of the all or nothing crowd have ever tried crossdrssing without passing. I suspect most have not. I think they should try like you did.

BTW am I that old that I am shocked there are people who dont know the words to Imagine!

Jocelyn Quivers

05-26-2011, 08:26 AM

I wonder how many of the all or nothing crowd have ever tried crossdrssing without passing. I suspect most have not. I think they should try like you did.

Being a member of the all or nothing crowd I have never tried crossdressing without passing. It's just not my thing and I have no desire at all to try it.

sometimes_miss

05-26-2011, 09:44 AM

Gulliver wrote: Friends have asked me why I don't wear a wig and 'go the whole hog'. The answer is very simple - it would be false, and not the real me. Why should I pretend to be something I'm not?
Because, for some of us, we feel like we were supposed to be 'something we're not', and the only way to quiet the inner turmoil is to try to be what we feel we truly are, whether that makes sense to anyone else or not.

GirlieAmanda

05-26-2011, 02:04 PM

NyssaF

05-26-2011, 03:46 PM

Looks like I completely missed out on this discussion. Perhaps that's for the best. :)

I am also a man who likes to wear dresses and such. I don't want to be a woman, nor do I want to present as one. I like to express my femininity, but that doesn't mean I want to give up on my masculinity. This is not a zero-sum game! There is a balance that can be achieved, and that balance doesn't have to be 100 feminine/0 masucline, or 90% feminine 10% masculine, etc.

I've mentioned this here a couple of times. I love the feeling of being dressed - including undergarments, stockings, dresses, etc. I use a waist cincher and fake b00bs to make sure that my outfits fit the way they were designed. I don't shave my legs (would be silly, since the rest of me is hirsute). I don't put on makeup nor a wig.

I object to the statements that those of us who don't dress 100% are trying to mock women. That is a very negative, simplistic and non-tolerant statement! I love femininity. I can allow that part of me to be presented from time to time. I feel like I am more in harmony with women at those points.

Doesn't mean I want to be a woman, though.

A question for you. Can you please explain why? what is the attraction to not make the attempt to look your feminine best while wearing a feminine skirt or a dress?

Question right back atcha: who gets to define what a person's "feminine best" looks like? 'cuz I would say that I am looking my feminine best in the picture I'll attach to this message. I am quite happy with how I look here. I think this is just about the best way I can present my feminine side. (Well, except for the stubble. I should have shaved first. :)

From what you've said, though, I shouldn't be happy with this. I should be striving for more. But then, doesn't that mean that you get to tell me what my feminine best is? So you get to decide that question for me?

I am kinda confused, and the whole idea really makes me sad. :sad:

sissystephanie

05-26-2011, 05:02 PM

I certainly wish I had posted my original post on this thread much earlier!! If I had, maybe many of the Ugly posts that were posted would not have happened!! Because of the title of the Thread, and the opening post, we all had a chance to express our views. But none of those views should have been personal in nature, as some of them were!! It is not the place of anyone on this Forum to judge how someone else looks!! Just because you don't happen to like how someone looks does not give you the right to criticize that person! If you think someone is too fat to crossdress, that is your privilege!! But keep your comments to yourselves!!

Jason+

05-26-2011, 10:02 PM

I've also never understood the need for an alternate, feminine persona - in the medical world, that's called schizophrenia.
Friends have asked me why I don't wear a wig and 'go the whole hog'. The answer is very simple - it would be false, and not the real me. Why should I pretend to be something I'm not ?

Because, for some of us, we feel like we were supposed to be 'something we're not', and the only way to quiet the inner turmoil is to try to be what we feel we truly are, whether that makes sense to anyone else or not.

Lexi and Gulliver,

I think that to those who also feel like Lexi does that I may be a constant and possibly painful reminder of that especially if I don't appear to value it as the prize they do.

The way Gulliver put it could have been written directly out of my thoughts. While I have plenty of room for improvement I still have to be true to me. I joked more than once with my wife that I couldn't give the facet of my personality that calls for dresses a name or the rest would soon be clamoring for one too.

DonnaT

05-27-2011, 04:29 PM

I'm sure many have heard of the trans continuum? Every one of us has a place on that continuum that satisfies our needs, be it, for m2f CDs, wearing heels, panties, a skirt, etc. all the way to full out presentation as a woman.

For someone to say we should dress "all or nothing" it is taking away from that continuum, and placing a binary limitation on things. This then gives credence to those who want to limit gender to a binary, either male or female. Making being trans wrong, making crossdressing wrong.

I doubt any of the "all or nothing" group are going to agree that being trans or a crossdresser is wrong. So, if you can't place gender in the binary, how can you limit being trans to a binary?

Personally, for me it's about the clothes, not about representing as a woman. However I do like fully dressing up, but I also like being able to simply wear a skirt out if I so desire. I've done both, and will continue to do so.

I simply ask, don't belittle anyone else their place on the trans continuum just because they aren't standing in the same place you are.

gulliver

05-28-2011, 09:49 AM

Because, for some of us, we feel like we were supposed to be 'something we're not', and the only way to quiet the inner turmoil is to try to be what we feel we truly are, whether that makes sense to anyone else or not.Woo. I just got a chill. I never thought of that. That makes a lot of sense. I am more than what people see on the outside. There is an inner being that HAS to be released. That's why I do it. Annnd... to me personally, the closer that the inner being looks to what is felt inside...the better. I, personally, need to be immersed fully to feel the closest to my inner feeling. This is so simple but I really never though of putting it like this. I may have just had a breakthrough. Thanks sometimes_miss!

sometimes_miss - I know what you mean. I have that inner turmoil as well - I don't have enough appendages to count the number of times I've put a skirt on to go out, only to let the anxiety win 30 minutes or an hour later and change into a pair of jeans. But who defines what we are supposed to be ? Ultimately it's only us individually that can do that and the answer will depend on how much gender-based indoctrination we suffer to start with, and how much we get rid of along the way.

GirlieAmanda - "I am more than what people see on the outside. There is an inner being that HAS to be released." - I couldn't agree more. That's why I continue to dress as I want to, as a genetic male (with a couple of extra bits !) despite the more than occasional stare and snide comments.

I think things are getting better though - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8504552/Boy-wears-skirt-to-school-in-protest-against-discrimination.html

kendra_gurl

05-28-2011, 01:03 PM

I've mentioned this here a couple of times. I love the feeling of being dressed - including undergarments, stockings, dresses, etc. I use a waist cincher and fake b00bs to make sure that my outfits fit the way they were designed. I don't shave my legs (would be silly, since the rest of me is hirsute). I don't put on makeup nor a wig.

I object to the statements that those of us who don't dress 100% are trying to mock women. That is a very negative, simplistic and non-tolerant statement! I love femininity. I can allow that part of me to be presented from time to time. I feel like I am more in harmony with women at those points.:

I have never said if you don't dress 100% you are mocking women. I said in answer to the first question you don't have to be a woman to wear a dress or skirt in public as a male IF you are not trying to look like you are mocking women

Would you go out shopping dressed as you are in that photo?

Question right back atcha: who gets to define what a person's "feminine best" looks like? 'cuz I would say that I am looking my feminine best in the picture I'll attach to this message. I am quite happy with how I look here. I think this is just about the best way I can present my feminine side. (Well, except for the stubble. I should have shaved first.

From what you've said, though, I shouldn't be happy with this. I should be striving for more. But then, doesn't that mean that you get to tell me what my feminine best is? So you get to decide that question for me?.:

Only you can define what your feminine best is. here is my orginal question.

A question for you. Can you please explain why? what is the attraction to not make the attempt to look your feminine best while wearing a feminine skirt or a dress? I know there are some GG's out there in the world who are not very feminine looking at all and some might say they would even be ugly as a man but I would bet the farm that these women don't wish to be this way. So again please explain to me why you would want to be seen in public as a guy in a dress or skirt in reality looking like a very unattractive female

I never said anything about "you shouldn't be happy" I just ask for an explination. you gave one I accept that but to take it farther and suggest I get to decide that question for you is "simplistic and non-tolerant" on your part.
To answer your question to me directly. IF you do go out like that its the general public who sees you who will decide if your looking your feminine best or you are mocking women. Seems very simple.

Because of the title of the Thread, and the opening post, we all had a chance to express our views. But none of those views should have been personal in nature, as some of them were!! It is not the place of anyone on this Forum to judge how someone else looks!! Just because you don't happen to like how someone looks does not give you the right to criticize that person! If you think someone is too fat to crossdress, that is your privilege!! But keep your comments to yourselves!!

Pythos asked a specific question about a photo how else do you respond without it being your opinion or judgment.

Same as with the comment about being fat ( this was not my comment) But I thought it was very nicely expressed the same as if it had been directed to overweight women.

Why are you wearing so many tight dresses and clothes? You have to wear what fits your body. There are so many sizes and styles for larger women OR MEN. Flowing, draping, tighter-in-the-right-places clothing that would make you look more like a man who wears a dress or skirt WELL, and less like a mess.

To take that statement and say if your fat you can't be a crossdresser is just not what was said.

Jason+

05-28-2011, 04:17 PM

Come on people we should all take a look at ourselves in the mirror or your photos. I applaud those who have never gone out in public because their own common scense tells them they can't pass at all and have the decency to not purposely try to offend others just to gain attention.

#1 as I have mentioned earlier you don't if its presented in a way that does not make you look like a guy mocking a female in a skirt or dress. Just as female clothing is manufactured for females in male styles there are no dresses or skirts designed to be worn by males other than those sold exclusively for the crossdressing community for fit to look more feminine on a male body.

#2 wearing a skirt or dress in public while still TRYING to be OBVIOUS that your a male just draws attention to yourself as that you either have now reguard for what others think of you or that you are just odd or weird, thus stereotyping all crossdressers as odd or weird.

#3 While those of us who do try to pass in public would love to think we do 100% of the time that is just not reality. I my opinion as long as most people who see me in public and have any doubt as to my gender could reasonably asume or question that perhaps I USED to be a man or that I make one damn good looking girl to be a guy in a dress I think that helps sociaty to accept ME for what I am

A question for you. Can you please explain why? what is the attraction to not make the attempt to look your feminine best while wearing a feminine skirt or a dress? I know there are some GG's out there in the world who are not very feminine looking at all and some might say they would even be ugly as a man but I would bet the farm that these women don't wish to be this way. So again please explain to me why you would want to be seen in public as a guy in a dress or skirt in reality looking like a very unattractive female

There are things I should have done better about the outfit I chose, starting at least with the ironing. To understand why I would "not make the attempt to look my feminine best while wearing a feminine skirt or dress" you have to be able to break the automatic assignment of dresses and skirts to femininity.

Originally I thought maybe being a guy was the problem. While growing up long before skirts and dresses became an issue I didn't seem to fit well in the guy group or very many groups for that matter. I discovered panties and also that boys don't wear them at 12. I was probably 28 before I figured out that I wasn't the only man that did want them and more. After a lot of reading the available books on the subject and through the two or three sites I had found that offered more than the dirty underbelly to crossdressing I realized that being a guy wasn't the issue. Being one doesn't feel wrong to me; I am pretty convinced it's what I am supposed to be. After accepting that I started to look at the objections to guys wearing these things and see which ones held water and which ones didn't. I found and tried a couple of the support groups and eventually found my way here. In the support groups and here to a degree I found that yes I could have the things I wanted but there was generally a push to have them all. That sounded almost as restrictive as the set of guy rules that said I should have none. So with the same line of thinking I looked at each item and evaluated whether or not the reasoning for it being a "requirement" was valid for me or not. Forms and wigs aren't the real me. While I still like it, lipstick is under review.

I have never said if you don't dress 100% you are mocking women. I said in answer to the first question you don't have to be a woman to wear a dress or skirt in public as a male IF you are not trying to look like you are mocking women

Here is where I might be able to learn something from you Kendra. Referencing the picture above or any other you have seen what is it that screams out that what I want to do is mock women and how can it be improved upon within the framework of who and what I am?

I am almost afraid to respond to this thread honestly for fear of those that like to go out in public dressed in any odd, weird, unusual, sloppy, shabby fashion that they want to will start throwing flames simply because I don't like the look or in some cases, the implications of why a guy would do it to begin with. Now some of these weird images I posed above are enough for me to not even want to befriend, know or hire someone that would dress like I pointed out . Sorry, I just don't do well or get along well with weird looking people that don't have enough self respect to consider what others may think of them. So this would include a man that presents as a man in a dress or skirt in public. Now add those that have facial hair and other wise dress in women's clothes. Now ya got double ridiculous and ugly! So as a man or a crossdresser, I would not be seen in public with them. See, I am one of those that does care what others think of me.

So if you dress as I described above, be prepared to be laughed at, have heads turning, shaking and be the brunt of jokes. It is your right. That much I agree with. I just don't want to be you... sorry.
I mean... some things just need to remain in the closet and are unfit for the public eye.

I agree with GirlieAmanda and Kendra_gurl Both expressed my sentiments better then I did.

Thank you for your honesty, don't compromise it for fear of being flamed by a dissenter. It's so much easier to deal with when I know where I stand. I would rather you openly laugh and or dislike me than pretend you are my friend.

Babeba

05-28-2011, 07:04 PM

The thing that gets me with this thread is the idea that in order to be feminine, one must be looking their 'feminine best' - and that includes wearing very specific sorts of clothing such as skirts, which are special, and in the feminine domain.

Does that mean that when I dress in practical clothing for working, hiking or sports that I have lost my femininity? Is it really true that 'clothes maketh the man'? How much does the perceived opinion of other people REALLY matter, if you're not trying to sell them something?

A question for you. Can you please explain why? what is the attraction to not make the attempt to look your feminine best while wearing a feminine skirt or a dress? I know there are some GG's out there in the world who are not very feminine looking at all and some might say they would even be ugly as a man but I would bet the farm that these women don't wish to be this way. So again please explain to me why you would want to be seen in public as a guy in a dress or skirt in reality looking like a very unattractive female

In the 9 or 10 years I volunteered as a leader with Girl Guides, one of the foundations of every single one of our programs was to help the girls learn self confidence and self respect. We try to encourage girls to accept themselves for who they are, and be confident in the strengths they find as they grow. Girl Guides is very careful to use realistic (i.e. average) people in their advertisements, because we believe as an organization that inner strength, fun and friendship comes from being true to yourself and loving yourself as you are. Now, as a women's organization with branches in nearly every country in the world, and over 100 years of history I would think it is as female as it gets. I can tell you that I have met SOOOO many women and girls around the world who are perfectly satisfied with themselves without going to the effort that 90% of the CDs, TS and TGs on this website go to in order to be feminine.

To me, that inner confidence to be yourself - to not feel that you have to conform to someone elses' ideas of what is 'feminine', or 'cool' - is a very important part of my personality and my femininity, and I respect any genetic male who expresses his femininity without feeling pressured to hide his masculinity at the same time.

I DO think that it is important to know and love your body, and keep that in mind when selecting clothing regardless of gender. Too often, when a person wears clothing that is not flattering to their shape or unkempt the message that is passed on to the world is, 'I don't care enough about myself to go buy clothing that fits my shape properly. I don't care about my belongings enough to take care of them.' People DO judge each other based on appearance, it's unfortunate but true. With any luck in the future that judgement won't be 'so and so is unattractive' or 'so and so is weird for wearing a skirt when he is a man.'

In the second set of Jason's pictures, I would agree that the pink t-shirt fits MUCH better than the tank top (and looks more comfortable, too!) As for shoes - why not sandals with a skirt? It is a very summery, comfortable looking outfit, after all! Either guy or girl sandals would work (flip flops would be great), especially in a beige, brown or black colour. I'm a little concerned that the red of the heels is a different tone than the pink of the shirts - could that be something that's throwing off the look?

Duana

05-28-2011, 10:24 PM

The thing that gets me with this thread is the idea that in order to be feminine, one must be looking their 'feminine best' - and that includes wearing very specific sorts of clothing such as skirts, which are special, and in the feminine domain.

Are these women wearing their feminine best?

http://freecodesource.com/people-of-walmart/Women-Of-Walmart/

Misti

05-28-2011, 10:30 PM

(#79) The thing that gets me with this thread is the idea that in order to be feminine, one must be looking their 'feminine best' - and that includes wearing very specific sorts of clothing such as skirts, which are special, and in the feminine domain.

Does that mean that when I dress in practical clothing for working, hiking or sports that I have lost my femininity? Is it really true that 'clothes maketh the man'? How much does the perceived opinion of other people REALLY matter, if you're not trying to sell them something???

Babeba, are you sure you're not Professor Higgins in disguise (Re. Pygmalion by George Bernard Shaw)? "By Jove! I think you've got it" I have been wading through this thread for what seems like countless hours now, and I have endured practically every emotion in the book, most damagingly, and mostly, outrage at the Archie Bunker (Re. All in the Family) style bigotry expounded by some of the posters herein?

I am relatively new to this erstwhile madness of feeling so feminine inside, and displaying accordingly outwardly, and I'm absolutely sure my SO is going equally crazy in supporting my every "little feminine whim as I grow in my new persona,” as well?

Lucky are those who can even dress 100%, go out in such, "even pass" in such, have the support of their SO's in such, let alone, have the guts to do all the above in such; and you get my idea, et cetera, et cetera, in such?

I think of all the "lurkers" out there, let alone the bona fide members, reading this squabbling amongst those that they wish so badly to emulate, and are wondering, "What tha...?"

Personally, I have just now decided that I (and not Misti) will continue going out 100% en femme from my shoulders down and 100% remaining male above, just like SissyStephanie (#57) does.
My answer to the question asked in the OP is simple. As far as I am concerned, men or women can wear what they want as long as they are decently covered. It is not up to me, or anyone else on this forum or anywhere to tell someone how to dress! That is a private thing, for only the person involved!! .... If you don't dress in an outlandish way, the vast majority of people don't care what you are wearing! [Amen to that!].... Of course, your attitude is also a major factor.... Wear your clothes proudly, whether they are male or female!!
Well, truth be known, it's also because my SO doesn't know about "Misti" yet? She only knows, and is 100% supportive, of the "feminization" transformation of her SO into this "incredibly loving, beautiful, sexy (she says my feet are pretty), caring, soft, wonderfully supportive SO" that she never knew, nor even suspected, of existing before. How could she? I didn't know either?

So, to the point of the thread and dressing the part - the feminine part, to be exact. I think if I could be Misti 100% of the time, I would finish the head part 100% feminine, too! That would put me in the "purist" category, I do believe. Damn, I would be as beautiful as humanly possible... Oh, to dream? :daydreaming:

:2c: OK, not possible, so what then? Give it all up because of a little discrepancy, like I can't do makeup and wig, now, et al.? "Not only no, but hell no!"

But, wait! Isn't that what about 99% of all CDers face, in one fashion or other? Like, albeit body, shape, weight, heavy beard, or likewise non-feminine traits being distributed at birth, etc., ... um, we're males, after all, albeit with feminine-leaning proclivities?

Aye, that's the rub. We're just not all born beautiful people; so therefore, we can't display ourselves to others according to “their expectations of feminine perfection and beauty of form,” as well as, “purpose?” Said another way, "We're not supposed to CD, then?" Maybe "Imagine" and "Shakespeare" can say it better than I can?

You decide for yourself, I already have!

Quote: To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them. To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: aye, there's the rub;
….
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry
And lose the name of action… [in such!] End Quote

(Source: To be, or not to be, William Shakespeare's Hamlet)

[#70] Because, for some of us, we feel like we were supposed to be 'something we're not', and the only way to quiet the inner turmoil is to try to be what we feel we truly are, whether that makes sense to anyone else or not.

"The Prosecution rests," your Honor! :battingeyelashes:

kendra_gurl

05-29-2011, 02:27 PM

The thing that gets me with this thread is the idea that in order to be feminine, one must be looking their 'feminine best' - and that includes wearing very specific sorts of clothing such as skirts, which are special, and in the feminine domain.

The key word you use here is to "be" feminine. This thread is not about being feminine its about Males needing to express their feminity or dual gender in "public" not just in private, while still looking noticablly male.

As the rest of your post related to your work with Girl Guides and it being about as female as it gets, this seems like a very good organization to be part of. Learning to accept who we are is improtant for both genders. And as you stated I too have no problem with a male expressing his feminity. Where I disagree is that expressing feminity is not all about clothing. Its a trait, mannerisms, actions, inner feelings, all sorts of emotions and feminine clothing is just a part of it.

This is just me personally. I do not and never have felt transgerndered or trapped inside the worng body. I do not need to dress in any female clothing of any kind 1% or 100% to express the feminine traits I have. They may not even be feminine traits but more of just how I was raised as a child to not be afraid to show I care and have feelings about certain aspects of life and others that are not the typical Macho Male. When I dress en-femme and step out in public for everyone to see I am not trying to make a statement to the world that I am a man expressing my feminity. I am trying to make everyone who gives me a second glance think that I am just another female. And no I do not go out dressed in public dressed inapproiate for where I will be. I love dressing in jeans flipflops and a nice top. I do however wear a feminine wig and makeup and proper fitting clothing stylish enought to blend in. But while I am presenting this way I am still the same person on the inside and act mostly the same as when I go to those very same places in my normal male clothing.

You also make the distintion between feminine best and practical clothing. This is my point. You don't assoicate the clothing your wearing as determining if your feminine or not. I totally agree. This is why I have difficulty understanding a genetic male not being comfortable expressing his feminine traits openly in public without having to wear a skirt or lipstick. We are all still the same person on the inside no matter how we dress. Sure for some our crossdressing makes us feel better and allows us to be more comfortable with out inner feelings when we do and look into the mirror. There are several post on this site about wives and SO's saying how the CD is more feminine than many of their female friends. That is about the whole persons personality not the clothing they wear.

Duana: those photos are great examples of how Someone (meaning whom ever took the photos) thought these people were so odd to see that otheres would get a kick out of seeing them too they took the time to post them on the internet.
I can't help but think if an obvious man in a dress was shopping in walmart too that someone would also be snapping a photo of him for the very same reason.

Jason: In you avatar photo and your profile photo it not you mocking women as much as I don't think those who see you like this know what you are trying to convey. Are you suggesting by your attire that you are transgendered and therefore trying to let everyone know this? Are you simply making a statement that a very Mascilune male can wear a dress just because females can wear jeans? From your earlier resonse it seems this my be more what your attempting than expressing feminity. Or are you trying to just make fun and mock the way some women dress? Or like some of those walmart photots you really just don't care bout your looks? Perhaps some people will get it and others will just think you are weird, who knows? Its not for me to say but if I saw you or anyone else present that way I would be asking myself those questions.

I hope I have helped you understand better why we all have different feelings about your OP. Its not that I cannot accept anyone unless they belong to the all or nothing group I too am just trying to understand what makes them be who they are.

Jason+

05-29-2011, 03:32 PM

Learning to accept who we are is improtant for both genders. And as you stated I too have no problem with a male expressing his feminity. Where I disagree is that expressing feminity is not all about clothing. Its a trait, mannerisms, actions, inner feelings, all sorts of emotions and feminine clothing is just a part of it.

You also make the distintion between feminine best and practical clothing. This is my point. You don't assoicate the clothing your wearing as determining if your feminine or not. This is why I have difficulty understanding a genetic male not being comfortable expressing his feminine traits openly in public without having to wear a skirt or lipstick.

Whatever the true mix of femininity and masculinity that I have ends up being you are correct in that whatever I have chosen to wrap the "me" package in doesn't change the contents of the package. My personality, the way I think or handle and solve problems doesn't change from pants to skirts. Do I sometimes have to filter something I was going to say based on the target audience? Absolutely. Do I do that because "men aren't supposed to think/feel that way or I'm worried about being considered effeminate?" Not consciously outside of not outing myself to people who don't need to know.

Jason: In you avatar photo and your profile photo it not you mocking women as much as I don't think those who see you like this know what you are trying to convey. Are you suggesting by your attire that you are transgendered and therefore trying to let everyone know this? Are you simply making a statement that a very Mascilune male can wear a dress just because females can wear jeans? From your earlier resonse it seems this my be more what your attempting than expressing feminity. Or are you trying to just make fun and mock the way some women dress? Or like some of those walmart photots you really just don't care bout your looks? Perhaps some people will get it and others will just think you are weird, who knows? Its not for me to say but if I saw you or anyone else present that way I would be asking myself those questions.

I had to ask because mock and shock were the original charges leveled. I'd like to convey that I'm a happy and relatively well adjusted male that happens to like skirts and dresses too and that it's okay to do that as a male. The closest standard label match to that so far has been cross-dresser although that isn't really a perfect fit. I'm not so much going for a statement of this or that. Whether or not a man masculine or otherwise can wear a dress hasn't got anything to do with the fact that women can wear jeans. Women can do that because enough of them went out and took the right to be able to do it. I don't do or wear what I do to make fun of anybody. I've looked at the "People of Walmart" series. The original picture didn't convey that I care about my appearance, hopefully the improvements and other pictures do and with luck provide a small degree of separation from them. Not everybody is going to get it and weird is the easy catch all when you don't know whether to force the eccentric peg through the square or round hole.

I hope I have helped you understand better why we all have different feelings about your OP. Its not that I cannot accept anyone unless they belong to the all or nothing group I too am just trying to understand what makes them be who they are.

Yes you have and hopefully I've been able to do the same.

ReineD

05-30-2011, 02:26 AM

There are several points of view expressed in this thread and I'd like to chime in.

On the subject of mocking or being insulting to women:
I personally feel disrespected when I see a man portraying a sexual parody of women in a manner that objectifies them, as in the flamboyant drag queen with the huge breasts, substantial bootie, big hair, makeup that's way overdone, ultra mini shirts, fish net stockings, and 5 inch heels. When I see this I wonder if this is what they think women are ... sexual objects that are placed on this earth strictly for men's pleasure.

If I see someone repeatedly wearing frilly, little girl dresses with maryjane shoes, or wedding gowns, or any other apparel that captures a specific time in a woman's life, I don't feel mocked. I rather see them as individuals who are trying to capture what they feel they missed in life by indulging in the fetish aspect of it. The clothes they wear describe them, not me.

I do not feel insulted when I see a man humbly wearing a regular Tshirt and a cargo skirt, and I think it's a safe bet to say that most GGs would agree with me. (PS. Jason, I also agree with Babeba that unisex sandals would look better than your heavy sneakers). It's up to you, but I do agree that if you don't wish to change the appearance of your body or your hair, you should probably stay away from lipstick and fancy pumps. This might just confuse people, most of whom understand very little about anything trans. (besides ... fancy pumps don't really go with cargo skirts, which are on the more casual spectrum for skirts. ;))

Regarding the presentation of femininity:
I agree with Babeba. It is also my impression that many of the more feminine CDers have lost sight of what is baseline for women. The fashion and retail industry has pushed images on all of us that exemplify an ideal and I dare say that the people (GGs and CDs) who can afford to buy into it have complied, myself included. But, this look is an ideal and it is realistically not how women look when they wake up every morning. lol. Women have made great inroads in the last few generations to just be themselves which is not a huge departure from their natural, "baseline" look, at least in their day-to-day lives, even though they may choose to dress up once in a while. We've moved on from the notion that we need to adorn ourselves in order to be valued in life. We've instead focused on developing our other aspects: education and careers. Yet, unadorned women are accused of being "masculine" by so many of the feminine aspiring members of this forum. I do wish the CDers who see a woman who has lost or who never really had the body type to have a girly figure and who wears jeans and no makeup, would stop saying she is masculine. She's not. She just happens to be an unadorned female. There's a big difference between the two.

The other side of all of this is that a CDer who wishes to present as a woman can't just wake up in the morning and put on a pair of jeans, a blouse, flats, and minimal makeup, and feel and look feminine, since this isn't a big enough departure from his own baseline male self. He does need the forms, the outfit, the heels, the makeup, the hair, the jewelry, the nails. We can't compare a woman's unadorned natural femininity to the look that a feminine aspiring CDer needs to wear, since both are coming from two completely different planes. But please (to those of you who say this), please stop saying you are more 'feminine' than the women who don't adorn themselves. You're not. You just prioritize adornment more than they do.

On the subject of the Walmart women link above:
I just want to point out that we have a very wide spectrum in our society when it comes to the various advantages that people have: education, money, exposure to different socio-economic classes, age, personal attractiveness, body types, IQ, personal tastes and preferences, overall sense of design and fashion, to name a few, and this goes for both women AND men. It's hugely unfair to look at random pics and say these women are sub par. Sub par by whose standards? The people whose life advantages enable them to place a premium on fashion? The Walmart people might look at you and think you are all very superficial. Also some people prefer to spend their small disposable incomes on other things than self-adornment.

Regarding society's view of a man in a dress:
I think our society has become polarized enough, and also inured enough to a wide variety of individual styles, that most people really don't care, if they do notice. Granted, a man attempting to blend as a woman will be on the periphery of most people's radars, so he won't be noticed as much and this is the biggest difference between the two. The guy in a dress will be noticed much more quickly. But, IF a person is generally prejudiced against males who wear feminine attire, I really don't think it will make much difference whether the male in question is attempting to blend or not. This person will still pass judgment, but most such people will have the wherewithal to not say anything. I've just described phase one. Phase two is when such people actually interact with a male in feminine attire, whether he is attempting to pass or not. It is my impression that when there is any form of human contact, other things come into play to dispel any prejudice, such as the recognition through body language or the personality that shines through that the CDer is human and deserves to walk this earth just like anyone else.

Sara Jessica

05-30-2011, 10:21 AM

Ever since I replied fairly early in this thread, I've been trying to reconcile some of the opinions I stated against the lingering debate which contains valid points on both sides. I'm still having some difficulty but Reine seems to have really touched upon something I was trying to say...

I do not feel insulted when I see a man humbly wearing a regular Tshirt and a cargo skirt, and I think it's a safe bet to say that most GGs would agree with me. (PS. Jason, I also agree with Babeba that unisex sandals would look better than your heavy sneakers). It's up to you, but I do agree that if you don't wish to change the appearance of your body or your hair, you should probably stay away from lipstick and fancy pumps. This might just confuse people, most of whom understand very little about anything trans. (besides ... fancy pumps don't really go with cargo skirts, which are on the more casual spectrum for skirts. ;))

I had said that I had respect for several in these pages who pushed a more androgynous vibe in their incorporation of clothing that is typically reserved for females into their male presentation. This opinion had mostly to do with more utilitarian presentations (ie - cargo-style skirts as Reine mentions) or even as part of reasonably well known subculture (as in the goth presentation of Pythos). Jason, I included you in the mix based on your avatar which is admittedly small but here is what I perceive: A skirt, likely denim, which I see as more utilitarian in such a tiny picture. This is paired with what very well could be a guy's screened t-shirt of some sort along with some kind of boots(?) with heels(???). I can visualize such a presentation as not causing too much of a stir if you take it out on the road. Yet in some of the other pictures you post, I see decidedly feminine dresses paired with heels, hosiery and minimal makeup (lipstick only?) which if taken on the road I think you'd have to admit would definitely turn heads. Whether or not you perceive such presentation causing much of a ruckus, trust me, it would beyond a more utilitarian presentation.

So does this mean I'm being hypocritical when I say that I have respect for the androgynous / utilitarian approach rather than the subsequent look you presented? Maybe. Then how does the amazing "wedding" look as posted by Pythos fit into this whole thing? Well aside from there being an appearance of more effort and polish, it's not coming down to that. Rather, I think the goth undertones are what makes me say that is a look which again, wouldn't cause such a major stir when taken into the mainstream.

....or maybe it is the polish?

When all is said and done Jason, some of the mixed presentation you have demonstrated can be downright polarizing as you have seen, for better or for worse. I think it shows how diverse our community is and despite the fact many in these pages utterly reject labels, there is really no other meaningful way to categorize our various states of expression and being. There are no easy answers so sometimes it can be best to take in the varying opinions and decide if there are elements you can apply to your personal situation, to enhance or evolve what it is that you wish to accomplish in putting yourself out there in the real world.

juno

05-30-2011, 10:45 AM

I am proud of everyone who learns to express who they are and not just what seems proper. There are many cultures throughout the world and throughout history that dress very differently, in ways that are perfectly normal within the cultural group, but bizarre outside of that group. The whole issue is not about any style being inherently right or wrong, it is about social conformance versus being yourself.

I lived in Germany for a while. When I came back, I went to a swimming pool in my Speedo swim trunks. My brother said "Around here, that means you are gay." That is really dumb. Too many people worry about conforming, and allow those beliefs to continue. In Holland, an old lady wearing a string bikini is nothing. United-Statesians need to get with the program.

It seems to me that styles are becoming more diverse, partly due to modern global communications. People are getting the idea that "different" doesn't mean "wrong". I have hopes that one day a "mixed gender" style will be perfectly acceptable. That is not really my preferred style, but I should feel comfortable dressing however I want.

Jason+

05-30-2011, 12:00 PM

(PS. Jason, I also agree with Babeba that unisex sandals would look better than your heavy sneakers). It's up to you, but I do agree that if you don't wish to change the appearance of your body or your hair, you should probably stay away from lipstick and fancy pumps. This might just confuse people, most of whom understand very little about anything trans. (besides ... fancy pumps don't really go with cargo skirts, which are on the more casual spectrum for skirts. ;))

It is approaching summer and I'm over due for a new pair of sandals for sure. :D Sandals or tennis shoes was the suggestion of one of the girls so I went with the one I had available.

If I understand your points correctly I should avoid lipstick altogether (or consider adding more makeup and a hair style and length change at least if not a wig) and that I should match fancy pumps to the appropriate fancy outfits.

I asked my wife what the top 3 biggest things that caused the most distress for her with the way I dress are. Lipstick was among them.

The lipstick has been one of the larger polarizing points of this thread. Add to that the fact that it's on the top three list and a that lot of thought has been given to what all have had to say about it here. This is the conclusion I have come to. I am not sure how much more doubt about me the lipstick would cause over a dress and pumps but I do see it as possible. I do think it may be counter productive to what I am after and as such will think long and carefully before or if I continue to wear it.

On the subject of the Walmart women link above:

I have to apologize, I should have followed that link first as I likely do have more in common with the 5 women shown than I thought. The site I thought was mentioned was People of Walmart which attacks society as a whole rather than one small slice of it. http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/

Pythos

05-30-2011, 12:06 PM

Lipstick is such a silly thing. Why is it only acceptable for women for the most part. What about it is inhearently feminine. When I wear my prefered style my lips are black or blue. I know red is the color of pasion, and for some reason that is only applicable to women....no idea why. Who came up with these rules? Why did they do that?

ReineD

05-30-2011, 12:16 PM

Pythos, you really should go to a research library and read papers on gender roles and expression throughout history and different cultures. I promise you, you'll find some answers.

Pythos

05-30-2011, 12:57 PM

Well Reine,

For once my research abilities failed me. I was unable to find any answers to my questions. I did find that Queen Elizebeth deemed lipstick on girls to be wrong, and forbid it because only harlots wore such. This was later reversed by another queen promoting the pale face and bright red lipstick.

Really all I could find was the origin of lipstick as well as make up, and the ever present fact that BOTH males and females wore it in anchient times (egypt mostly).

Your input would be greatly appreciated though.

Now I will be honest though, I have heard that red lipstick was also a representation of shall we say a certain anatomy of the female, but frankly I think that is Freudian nonesense.

Jason+

05-30-2011, 01:09 PM

Sara,

The skirt in the avatar is denim, the shirt is a shimmery foil type of material I think lame' and they are boots with a 4" stiletto type heel. It would likely cause a ruckus. The "feminine dresses" are worn with only lipstick and nail polish yes. Will the dress and heels look even if I fore-go the lipstick cause more of a ruckus than a cargo skirt and t shirt with unisex sandals? Yes, yes it will. Reine captures that beautifully as well in the section of her response "Regarding society's view of a man in a dress:"

The catalyst outfit didn't have the amount of polish it should have. Is it possible to polish a dress and heels outfit enough to push it over to the respectable side with out adding full makeup, forms and a wig? That's an out of the box polar question.

As I understand it being able to respect one look over another isn't a hypocrisy issue it's an opinion one. I'll continue to add the positives I gather along the way and work on the negatives as I can apply them within the framework of staying true to me. We don't have to completely agree with the others position to have respect for it. Finding the useable parts of an opposite opinion was why I started this thread.

Misti

05-30-2011, 02:01 PM

Renne (#84) Wow! I've loved and respected all of your muses, this one especially. Wow, right on!
Sara (#85) I think this applies beautifully to all CD's, nicely done.
When all is said and done Jason, some of the mixed presentation you have demonstrated can be downright polarizing as you have seen, for better or for worse. I think it shows how diverse our community is and despite the fact many in these pages utterly reject labels, there is really no other meaningful way to categorize our various states of expression and being. There are no easy answers ... to ... what it is that you wish to accomplish in putting yourself out there in the real world [as a CD].

I am proud of everyone who learns to express who they are and not just what seems proper. There are many cultures throughout the world and throughout history that dress very differently, in ways that are perfectly normal within the cultural group, but bizarre outside of that group. The whole issue is not about any style being inherently right or wrong, it is about social conformance versus being yourself.... It seems to me that styles are becoming more diverse, partly due to modern global communications. People are getting the idea that "different" doesn't mean "wrong". I have hopes that one day a "mixed gender" style will be perfectly acceptable. That is not really my preferred style, but I should feel comfortable dressing however I want.
Juno (#86) Right on! Nicely said. I hope so, too!
As an added note, Juno, you might have also mentioned that the peace sign (two fingers extended in a "V" sign upward) is interpreted as giving the middle finger salute in certain cultures, but IMHO, it could conceivably be an acceptable analogy of what we're trying to say individually here as CD's? :2c:
Recall, Yoda said, "Do ...?"

I personally have learned, plus taken away, a lot from this discussion, and most of it is good, "so far?" :love:

NyssaF

05-31-2011, 10:51 AM

I have never said if you don't dress 100% you are mocking women. I said in answer to the first question you don't have to be a woman to wear a dress or skirt in public as a male IF you are not trying to look like you are mocking women

Would you go out shopping dressed as you are in that photo?

Those are fair points. I would not go out shopping at a supermarket dressed, true. I would go to a shop that is glbt friendly.

Only you can define what your feminine best is. here is my orginal question.
To answer your question to me directly. IF you do go out like that its the general public who sees you who will decide if your looking your feminine best or you are mocking women. Seems very simple.

Your original message sounded to me like you were deciding what looked like expression and what looked like an attempt to mock women. That was the point that I was trying to respond to.

Though looking back through the thread it does look like I should've been responding to GirlieAmanda:

I don't disparage it by comically parading around essentially mocking women and purposely antagonizing people.

And I freely admit this is a topic that I am sensitive about, since I am one who doesn't go in for hair or makeup or attempts to "pass" but do like most everything else about cross-dressing.