Just won the ladies' champion title in bowling

[jenniferoonus]

I have just returned from a bowling tournament and I felt wonderful. I won the ladies' Champion title!! The winning is secondary, my biggest thrill is 'Jen' was under the spot light. I knew that I am 100% passable, from far and from near, but today was the first time that 'Jen' was 'shown case' infront of more than 100 people.

I got a big price out of this... At one point I was thinking that this was not fair to the GG participants, but I told myself that I am not a male either, plus, I believe that I am the smallest size among all the ladies' bowlers. So I kept the price money without any guilt (:

[cdinmd206]

Congradulations Jenn but be careful in the future. What you actually did could be considered fraud and that is illegal. Hate to see you get busted and have your name in the news. I hope you take this as just friendly advice

[Tammy V]

Congratulations as well, but this seems risky and raises some real ethical questions.

[tiffanyjo89]

Sure, it's fraud according to legal definitions (not being a GG and having the benefit of male hormones in a woman's competition).

But if she is to be believed, she was physically smaller than most of the competitors.

[Sarah_Jane]

i would say careful as well, not because of some moral superiority but i'd hate to see some irked women beat the snot out of you!! ;)

[jenniferoonus]

Congratulations as well, but this seems risky and raises some real ethical questions.

Tammy and cdinmd206, Thanks for your advice, noted.

I was kind of sucked into this competition. I have been bowling with a group of about 20 people every week and none of them knows my secrete. I have been living as 'Jen' on weekdays for the last 5 years. They formed a team in the competition and being the best bowler among them, they just didn't take NO for an answer. I guess I have to learn how to say NO in the future.

Again, thanks for your concerns.




But if she is to be believed, she was physically smaller than most of the competitors.

I am telling the truth, I am the smallest size among the competitors. I am 5 ft, 102 lbs and size 0.

[Diane Elizabeth]

I have been on my league about 8 years as a male. I would love to go as Dyan but I.m not sure they would accept me willingly.

[rachellegsep]

About 10 years ago a stink was caused at the J & B Met (a major horse racing event here). The winner of the contest for the days best dressed lady turned out later to be a female drag artist. That was a shock to the judges lol. I also remember that for several years the legs used on the arwa pantihose ads belonged to a male.

[Kate Simmons]

This is a potential can of worms just waiting to be opened in my opinion. I'd suggest keeping it low key my friend.

[NicoleScott]

Putting icing on your head doesn't make you a cupcake. It's cheating.

[DanielleLee]

Putting icing on your head doesn't make you a cupcake. It's cheating.

Couldn't have said it better Nicole...

A cheat, is a cheat.

[Samantha_Smile]

Yeah, sorry luv, I really gotta echo what everyone else has said, sounds like cheating to me.

If you had been clear when you signed up that you aren't a genetic female and they still let you play then Id be giving you congratulations.
But that sounds dishonest and a lot like cheating.
Sorry.

[RachelOKC]

I'm a bit more comfortable with "unethical" than "cheating". I'm not sure what advantage there would be (if any) over a ciswoman but I'm not a bowler, so color me ignorant here. The real issue is that you were thinking it might not be fair, but you did it anyway and didn't seem to get another opinion, or consult with the judges, or review the rules. Might not actually be cheating, but it is a real lapse in judgement.

This reminds me of the Lana Lawless LPGA case somewhat. In her case she was transitioned, on female hormones, and met the legal requirements for play. The controversy really arose only after she had the poor sense to actually win.

[BillieJoEllen]

I can understand everyone's concern about cheating and it being unethical but I think Jennifer has in some small way validated her femininity.

[Lorileah]

Putting icing on your head doesn't make you a cupcake. It's cheating.

Yes it is. I think that in most arenas there should be total equality between the sexes (jobs, housing, education and such) but no matter how you slice it, unless you have transitioned you are a male competing against genetic women. There is a reason there is Title IX in college.

[KandisTX]

Might not actually be cheating, but it is a real lapse in judgement.

Sorry, it is cheating plain and simple. If one is a genetic male, regardless of how they are attired, and they compete in a sport that is SPECIFICALLY a Ladies Tournament, they are in fact cheating and therefore should not be heralded for their "victory".

[christina s]

It's a bowling game people ....... Congratulations on your win.

[jenniferoonus]

I can understand everyone's concern about cheating and it being unethical but I think Jennifer has in some small way validated her femininity.
BillieJoEllen,
You hit the nail on the head, my sole purpose of participating in the tournament is to validate my femininity!!! I didn't participate to win. In fact, even if I came in last place, I was still the winner because no one had "read' me. I share my prices evenly with everyone in my team.

I am so disappointed that some people here called me 'cheater'. We are all here to share our transgender experiences and to receive mutual supports, I don't expect that I receive additional stress in this forum.

You all can give me advice (which I sincerely welcome) but please don't call me a cheater, I didn't gain anything matters to me other than validated my femininity!!!

[Diane Elizabeth]

I saw a program on TV about a girl that races against other females. Some of them were complaining that it was unfair/cheating since she was born male. Her name is Michelle and she had all the surgeries and ID changed. The racing org had ruled that she could compete. I know this isn't the same thing neccessarily. Just thought I would throw it out there.

[Alissa]

BillieJoEllen,
You hit the nail on the head, my sole purpose of participating in the tournament is to validate my femininity!!! I didn't participate to win. In fact, even if I came in last place, I was still the winner because no one had "read' me. I share my prices evenly with everyone in my team.

I am so disappointed that some people here called me 'cheater'. We are all here to share our transgender experiences and to receive mutual supports, I don't expect that I receive additional stress in this forum.

You all can give me advice (which I sincerely welcome) but please don't call me a cheater, I didn't gain anything matters to me other than validated my femininity!!!


You gained prize money that someone else deserved to win - someone that met all the requirements to enter the competition.

I know you don't want to hear it, but yes... you cheated.

[Chickhe]

Congrats! Ignore all the other crap... Sounds like a fair competition to me!

[Maddie22]

I saw a program on TV about a girl that races against other females. Some of them were complaining that it was unfair/cheating since she was born male. Her name is Michelle and she had all the surgeries and ID changed. The racing org had ruled that she could compete. I know this isn't the same thing neccessarily. Just thought I would throw it out there.

I saw this too. The girls she was competing against were not too happy with her. However since she was on hormone's and transitioned she was only at an advantage of being a bigger than normal girl. Just like a Candace Parker has in Basketball.

Which gets me thinking, let's say Candace Parker decided to transition from F2M and started taking hormones and ect...how well could she then compete in the NBA?

[jenniferoonus]

You gained prize money that someone else deserved to win - someone that met all the requirements to enter the competition.

I know you don't want to hear it, but yes... you cheated.

Its a waste of my time try to defend myself, you guys can accuse me for anythings, I will accept it... I am here for transgender matters, not anything else!

I will ignore all future accusation but will respond to comments relate to transgender.

[NicoleScott]

You all can give me advice (which I sincerely welcome) but please don't call me a cheater, I didn't gain anything matters to me other than validated my femininity!!!

Still in denial that you cheated. Your "validated femininity" came at the expense of the genetic females that were cheated out of a chance to win honestly. Now that your femininity as been validated, perhap now you can work on validating your character. Including honesty. You may think you are being honest with yourself, but you are not being honest with others.
There is a reason that most women's sports do not allow men to compete. Generally (not for all individuals) men have a strength advantage, which may translate to an endurance advantage, even in such "touch" sports as bowling. You claim not to be a male. Let's have a look at those chromosomes, huh?
This issue has been tested in many sports, and men are not allowed to compete in women's sports, no exceptions for girly men. Deny all you want. You still cheated.

[Stitch]

Good job!

You've just added to the already heavy theory that people on the Trans spectrum have a tendency to be dishonest, not just with their partners.
Way to help your sisters. Things like this set you all back in the eyes of the people that you are trying to gain acceptance from. Which is very sad as there are some very sweet and honest Cross Dressers out there. Lets hope you don't get them tarred with your brush. A cheater is a cheater and a liar at that!

[GaleWarning]

Jennifer, I think you ought to own up and return the prize money.
Here in NZ, we would say that you have lost your "mana" because you have been dishonest.
The only way to regain the respect of your bowling mates and the others who competed is to be up front and admit that you are a genetic male who competed unfairly.
It will not be easy, but you will regain your "mana" in this way.

[stockinged nemo]

Congratulations on passing! I think a lot of us are jealous of you....maybe thats why all the chastising? I do agree that it may not have been the most ethical thing. If I was in your heels, I may have competed but made sure I didn't win any prizes...then no harm no foul - all for fun. If you do feel any guilt about winning, just figure a way out to "pay it forward" so to speak and maybe so something for others with any prize money you may have won (a local charity or something). None of us are perfect, lets cut a little bit of slack and not gang up on Jen.

[Tammy V]

To spend that much a group of people and none of them know you are male, you are doing a Helluva job at passing!

[Susan Smith]

Wow! There's a lot of hostility in some of these messages. jenniferoonus was quite clear that she was pressurised into taking part - we all know what that feels like! What should she have done? Not joined in at all right from the start? Or just 'confessed' her 'real' gender in time to avoid winning? If we pass, we pass. Congratulations on the win jenniferoonus.

Susan

[Konfused]

First of all, let me say that I am happy for you that you were able to pass so well. That's absolutely wonderful for you and I'm glad that you have that "victory" under your belt. But I honestly must say, I do not think that what you did was fair. I will not call you a cheater, and I will not call you unethical, but I do think that in hindsight, you should realize that it was unfair. I understand that the money may mean nothing to you, but I'm sure most of the girls competing in the tournament were probably not in it just to prove that they could pass as girls. They probably wanted some of that money. If Pete Weber (professional bowler) decided he wanted to begin crossdressing and thus compete with the women, he would win literally every game, probably even on a bad day. Same thing with any of the other pros that are guys. They are, as a majority, better than the professional women bowlers. One might say that bowling is not as athletic as many other sports, but if you examine the statistics, you will absolutely see a trend. In your shoes, I may or may not have realized beforehand that it was an unfair thing to do. I definitely would not go back and out myself. I just think that you should personally reflect on this experience from every angle, and try to understand where the people are coming from that are not wholly supportive of your actions. Bear in mind these are probably some of the most supportive people on the planet, so if they are not condoning what you did, it really may be cause for reflection. Please keep that in mind.

[t-girlxsophie]

Bigger Issue here is that they class Ten Pin Bowling as a sport :devil:

[AKAMichelle]

I have to agree that it is cheating. If you don't want anybody finding out about your secret then you shouldn't do this again.

[ReineD]

I'm just spouting off the top of my head here since I haven't really looked into it, but apparently MtF transwomen are allowed to participate in many of the female amateur roller derby leagues, if they've been on hormones either 1 year or 2 years, depending on the leagues. I guess the idea is that after having been on hormones for awhile, the male muscle mass diminishes and there is no significant difference between a transwoman and a birth woman.

Still, I have a girlfriend who has been on hormones for 4 years now and who has been living her life fully as a woman. She was wearing a sleeveless shirt the other day and her biceps were still very large (comparatively) for a woman. My friend is a good 3-4 inches shorter than me. So I'd love to know exactly how and which muscles are affected after having been on hormones. She has a physically demanding job so it could be in her case that her arm muscles have kept some bulk because she uses them?

At any rate, if the OP is not on hormones then in my opinion she should continue to bowl as herself, but she should not have participated in a contest with natal women where there was a prize and prize money. No matter the height, the muscle mass in the arms is still there and that's what powers the bowling ball. :straightface:

[jenniferoonus]

To spend that much a group of people and none of them know you are male, you are doing a Helluva job at passing!
Bowling group is just one of the many groups that I present and behave as Jennifer, I go out everyday as Jennifer for the last 5 years and I have really become Jennifer. I think, talk, and act like a female all the time when I am Jennifer and I totally forget that I am a male. I think the female part of me has taken over the male part. I hang out with women many times a week and I have many closed friends. We have had many girl talks. I also have many male friends and we go out often. So far, everyone who met Jennifer does not know her secrete. Though I have not begun any transition steps, I am a woman inside out. However, the saddest thing is that I am still married to my wife and she is not accepting at all, and I love her. Because of this, She has never met Jennifer. I would have started my transition if not because of this situation.
I know my mariage is in jeopardy...Life is never perfect...


Wow! There's a lot of hostility in some of these messages. jenniferoonus was quite clear that she was pressurised into taking part - we all know what that feels like! What should she have done? Not joined in at all right from the start? Or just 'confessed' her 'real' gender in time to avoid winning? If we pass, we pass. Congratulations on the win jenniferoonus.

Susan

Susan,Thanks for your understanding. Everyone who knows Jennifer doesn't know her real gender, and she has many friends and she is enjoying her life. Therefore, I cannot 'confessed' my 'real' gender unless I want to 'kill' Jennifer which I don't think I am capable of doing. In fact, my wife is asking me to forget Jennifer completely or else she will move on...I cannot 'kill' Jennifer and I love her...don't know what to do and I just let nature takes its course.

[CatAttack]

Well congrats on passing Jen! I mean, if you are as small as you say you are, then I don't see what the huge deal is. To the people who are calling you a cheater: Does that mean a transgirl can't participate in any sports, unless it is with men?! Actually this brings me to ask: are you trans/transitioning, or do you just do part time? Are you on HRT [this will affect muscle mass and whatnot]? If not, then the morality of it can be a bit questionable. But still, congrats on stealthiness though! (:

[GaleWarning]

Bowling group is just one of the many groups that I present and behave as Jennifer, I go out everyday as Jennifer for the last 5 years and I have really become Jennifer. I think, talk, and act like a female all the time when I am Jennifer and I totally forget that I am a male. I think the female part of me has taken over the male part. I hang out with women many times a week and I have many closed friends. We have had many girl talks. I also have many male friends and we go out often. So far, everyone who met Jennifer does not know her secrete. Though I have not begun any transition steps, I am a woman inside out. However, the saddest thing is that I am still married to my wife and she is not accepting at all, and I love her. Because of this, She has never met Jennifer. I would have started my transition if not because of this situation.
I know my mariage is in jeopardy...Life is never perfect...



Susan,Thanks for your understanding. Everyone who knows Jennifer doesn't know her real gender, and she has many friends and she is enjoying her life. Therefore, I cannot 'confessed' my 'real' gender unless I want to 'kill' Jennifer which I don't think I am capable of doing. In fact, my wife is asking me to forget Jennifer completely or else she will move on...I cannot 'kill' Jennifer and I love her...don't know what to do and I just let nature takes its course.

Well you certainly have problems, Jen. Keeping secrets from your wife, keeping secrets from your bowling friends.
When are you going to learn that honesty is the best policy?
I think you might be pleasantly surprised by your bowling friends' reactions if you were to tell them your secret.
You need to sort thngs out with your wife; carefully assess the full consequences of any decision that you might make.
I can tell you from personal experience that the cost of divorce is extremely high, both socially and financially.
It's time to stop hiding and take charge.
Good luck.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

so jennifer what you are saying is that you are ok with what you are doing because you need to do it..frankly i relate to that ..
it's wrong to compete in a tournament for money as a woman when you are not a woman...there is no excuse for it..

sports and gender has been an issue for many years...from eastern communist countries years ago, to recent cross sexed runners.......it's a debate in sports world...
however, taking a woman's money when you are competing in her bracket is just stealing... and it makes all of us look bad..

[charlene#2]

i am not sure where you are located,but here in michigan there are an awful lot of female bowlers bowling in mens classic leagues.i hav watched some of these females kick the guys buts and they were definatly female.i have a grand-daughter that bowled with the men in the state tournament.i dont think that jennifer did anything wrong and i for one would like to offer her my congrats

[jenniferoonus]

Well you certainly have problems, Jen. Keeping secrets from your wife, keeping secrets from your bowling friends.
When are you going to learn that honesty is the best policy?
I think you might be pleasantly surprised by your bowling friends' reactions if you were to tell them your secret.
You need to sort thngs out with your wife; carefully assess the full consequences of any decision that you might make.
I can tell you from personal experience that the cost of divorce is extremely high, both socially and financially.
It's time to stop hiding and take charge.
Good luck.
I am not hiding Jennifer from my wife, she knows a lot of Jennifer but she is not accepting.

[7sisters]

I dont know what to say... Personally I think it is okay if you have fun like this just once in your life. Once . Once. Once.
Don't try it again though. And if you are feeling guilty, donate the money to an organization that helps disadvantaged ladies.

[jenniferoonus]

I dont know what to say... Personally I think it is okay if you have fun like this just once in your life. Once . Once. Once.
Don't try it again though. And if you are feeling guilty, donate the money to an organization that helps disadvantaged ladies.

The question here is not if I have fun or win, I live my life as a real woman and I do not wish to segregate myself from all the things that other women do. I am just one of them.

I wonder how many of the readers here really understand my inner feeling here, I am just trying to be a real woman. To live a life as a real woman, do I need to identify the boundary? Can I use the ladies room? Can I discuss with my lady friends about period and menopause? Can we talk about men, husbands and children? Can I accompany my lady friend to breast cancer operation? Can I have very personal girls talks? Can I be their house guest? Can I go shopping with my lady friends? Can I hang out with ladies? and .... What's the boundaries? I have done and are doing all these things, among other things, as a real woman (because no one knows that I am still a male).

I just want my life as a woman, nothing else! Is this a crime that many of the readers here have commented? I am not a guy dresses as a woman for personal pleasure or gain! I am just a woman!!!

Jennifer

Jennifer

[7sisters]

You make a valid point.

[Lorileah]

I wonder how many of the readers here really understand my inner feeling here, I am just trying to be a real woman.
Oh really? You dress 24/7. You live your life as a female in public? Your wife knows about all this and your employer? Did I miss something here because I seem to remember that you are very closeted in most of this. You are on HRT or have consulted an endo or gender councilor? No, we don't understand your inner feelings because you are the one with the feelings. We all have our feelings but often your posts are contradictory. If you want to be a woman, then work toward that by not picking and choosing where and when you will present as a woman (as in around your wife).



I just want my life as a woman, nothing else! Is this a crime that many of the readers here have commented? I am not a guy dresses as a woman for personal pleasure or gain! I am just a woman!!!


That is good, you evidently are a transsexual, but the arguments you use above do not make you a woman. It makes you someone who relates to women. I discuss all the above with women all the time. I even have women seek me out to talk about health issues and clothing. It does not make me a woman.

Enjoy your winnings. If the sanctioning body has no problem with it, then you deserve it. To me it is very similar to an adult competing with young teenagers for a prize. No matter how often you say it, your body has advantages over genetic females. Look at the averages in bowling of women vs men in the PBA (or any other sanctioned bowling body). You will see that there is a difference so there is something there that makes males different.

And for all that chose to say that this is not in any way ethically wrong here, you have given up the right to say that anything that women do that you perceive you cannot do is just as wrong (read wearing pants and other articles of clothing while you "cannot" wear a skirt).

[Crysten]

The more I read this persons posts here....the less I believe any of it. If you are as you state "living life as a woman and have been for five years and are totally passable 100%" -- why are you on here bragging about it? According to you, this lifestyle is normal, and while you should be happy you won (legally or not) the fact that you did so AS YOUR TRUE FEMALE SELF should just be....normal. Dear, I believe you are full of it. This whole thread is the product of someones imagination. Go back to stealing your moms panties, please.

[jenniferoonus]

The more I read this persons posts here....the less I believe any of it. If you are as you state "living life as a woman and have been for five years and are totally passable 100%" -- why are you on here bragging about it? According to you, this lifestyle is normal, and while you should be happy you won (legally or not) the fact that you did so AS YOUR TRUE FEMALE SELF should just be....normal. Dear, I believe you are full of it. This whole thread is the product of someones imagination. Go back to stealing your moms panties, please.

Now I am really feel so good of myself, my true life to you is 'imagination'!!! Bravo to me!!!!

[PretzelGirl]

Enjoy your winnings. If the sanctioning body has no problem with it, then you deserve it. To me it is very similar to an adult competing with young teenagers for a prize. No matter how often you say it, your body has advantages over genetic females. Look at the averages in bowling of women vs men in the PBA (or any other sanctioned bowling body). You will see that there is a difference so there is something there that makes males different.


I am an avid bowler who has run a number of sanctioned leagues and tournaments. If she is not transitioned and signed up as female (as it seems), then I highly suspect that this wasn't a sanctioned tournament. All sanctioned leagues and tournaments in the US are run through the USBC which is for both men and women (they formerly were separate organizations). When you sign up, you give your gender and that is how you bowl. I would think if she isn't legally female, and if she signed up that way, then that would be cause for disqualification from any leagues and tournaments and she would be put up for review to have her membership revoked for some period of time. If she is legally female, than everything is just fine.

As for ability. Yes the men tend to fair much better than the women on the whole. For those that knock bowling, it still requires muscles in many places in the body and that does have an effect between the genders on average. I am a very good bowler, yet there are three ladies in my area that are former all-american collegiate bowlers and ladies professionals that beat me regularly. Does that mean that it is fair to match women against men? On the whole, no. The men still have an advantage.

Now the OP has left a number of facts out, whether intended or not. So I am not trying to make definate determinations here because if she is transitioned, all is fair. If not, then I may agree with others. It certainly can be an unfair advantage.

[sara.s]

:balloons: Congrats on your winning.

PS: Keep such dirty little secrets to yourself next time or be ready to be :spank: again and again.

[anonymousinmaryland]

To me, you bowled, cheated and won. But you passed as a female. Donate the prize to charity, pat yourself on the back, and RUN!

[LeannL]

As an FYI, the International Olympic Committee does allow transsexual women to compete in women's events but it is only after 2 years has passed after surgical reassignment. If you have passed this point, enjoy, otherwise the IOC at least says you are bowling gutter balls. If you are "forced" into again, I would suggest you have a bad day and not win the prize money.

Leann

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I am an avid bowler who has run a number of sanctioned leagues and tournaments. If she is not transitioned and signed up as female (as it seems), then I highly suspect that this wasn't a sanctioned tournament. All sanctioned leagues and tournaments in the US are run through the USBC which is for both men and women (they formerly were separate organizations). When you sign up, you give your gender and that is how you bowl. I would think if she isn't legally female, and if she signed up that way, then that would be cause for disqualification from any leagues and tournaments and she would be put up for review to have her membership revoked for some period of time. If she is legally female, than everything is just fine.

As for ability. Yes the men tend to fair much better than the women on the whole. For those that knock bowling, it still requires muscles in many places in the body and that does have an effect between the genders on average. I am a very good bowler, yet there are three ladies in my area that are former all-american collegiate bowlers and ladies professionals that beat me regularly. Does that mean that it is fair to match women against men? On the whole, no. The men still have an advantage.

Now the OP has left a number of facts out, whether intended or not. So I am not trying to make definate determinations here because if she is transitioned, all is fair. If not, then I may agree with others. It certainly can be an unfair advantage.

sue you make a great point....
I'm a bowler (200 avg as a guy thank you..)... and we were VERY SERIOUS about our league rules...remember "big lebowski"?..john goodman calls a footfault..the guy rejects the call...john pulls out a gun and says "sorry smoky, league game"...
most leagues have zero tolerance for cheating...we certainly did, and in my years, 2 people were banned for fudging prebowl scores..BANNED!
Regardless of my support for ts/tg/cd people to do what they want with no limits, it's cheating as it relates to bowling.
Any golfers? anybody wanna let a guy hit off the red tee if he wears a nice skirt outfit?

passing full time all the time is really hard for trannsexuals living their lives, even ffs doesnt make for 100% passing all the time.
Obviously we'll never know for sure, but there is a chance the story is not 100% true..i personally beleive we are reading a tall tale...
Living an entire double life as a female with no one knowing seems like a big stretch..

[Anna Maria]

Bigger Issue here is that they class Ten Pin Bowling as a sport :devil:
:D:D You tell 'em gal! They to try Crown Green Bowling (that's our version of bowling here in the UK) Women and men are on an equal footing in my game! :battingeyelashes:

[NicoleScott]

Though I have not begun any transition steps, I am a woman inside out.

I suspect that the rules regarding participation in women's sports refer to their female sex, not gender identification. Since you haven't begun transition, you are a sexual male participating in a sport for sexual women. Rationalize all you want about body size and validation, you're still a male.

If some sports allow transsexuals to compete, fine. Present your case to the sanctioning body and see what they say. Failure to allow them to rule on your qualifications when you are withholding the truth from them is CHEATING.

If you want to stay in the closet, do so. You can't have it both ways.

[silhouette]

Wow some angst going on in here.. lol.
Hon I think you aroused some jealousy or something!!!

Obv yeah it's not right too compete against the GGs but thats been covered and i think you see that now so ppl shouldn't keep harping on you about it.
Damn harpies...

I think it's awesome that you pass 100%!!!

[Sophie86]

Renee Richards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards) called. She says you can all kiss her hiney. She also said that a 5' male who weighs 102 lbs has NO advantage over a woman who is 5'-4" and weighs 130 lbs. Muscles don't have gender.

[Tina B.]

From what I understand it's cheating unless you've''e been on hormones at least 6 mos. up until then, you still are running on male hormones and have a extra advantage in strength, and for non bowlers, yes strength does play a part in the game. And it's not just a game to those that are involved with tournament bowling, and I doubt the competition was begging a guy to play against them.
Tina B.

[NicoleScott]

Muscles don't have gender.

But if you look closer (like in the muscle cells' nucleus) you'll see they have a sex. Male.

Where do you draw the line, at body size and weight? Is it right for gender-crossing participants to judge for themselves if their increased femininity and decreased masculinity qualifies them to compete as women? My point is that if you want to compete as a woman, get the permission of the sport's governing body. Female sports can't be opened up for every guy who likes pink.
As for pulling it off, great. Give the money back.

[silhouette]

Unless it's like a 5 figure prize... people were probably competing for the title, not the cash

[NicoleScott]

OK, give the trophy back too.

[donnatracey]

Unless it's like a 5 figure prize... people were probably competing for the title, not the cash

Wrong! It's always about the $$$, esp since in most events entrants have to "ante up" to enter. And I suspect the prize money was not that big; would be nice for the OP to mention what it was.

[silhouette]

Wrong! It's always about the $$$, esp since in most events entrants have to "ante up" to enter. And I suspect the prize money was not that big; would be nice for the OP to mention what it was.

I've won more than 3 dozen tournaments in the last 5 years, and let me tell you, most people care way more about the high from winning and being able to tell their friends that they won, instead of getting $160 bucks at the end of the night.

[Eve II]

Hmmmm - this is sorta interesting! Mens sport teams ( football, baseball, etc) must allow girls to be on the team if they wish ( girls have been field goal kickers for sometime now). SO, why is it not fair for our Jennifier to play? We are always talking about a double standard. Yo GO Jenn !!!!

[GaleWarning]

To reiterate - Jennifer competed under false pretenses.
She has not been back to tell us if she had the ba**s to confess and surrender the title and prizes.

[Babeba]

Hmmmm - this is sorta interesting! Mens sport teams ( football, baseball, etc) must allow girls to be on the team if they wish ( girls have been field goal kickers for sometime now). SO, why is it not fair for our Jennifier to play? We are always talking about a double standard. Yo GO Jenn !!!!

Difference being that everyone does so openly, without pretenses as to their natal gender.

On that note, I know a gal who was on her high school football team and was taken out by the other team, because all the guys on both teams were pissed they had to let her on the team. She ended up with pins in her ankle.

I think it was a bad situation for the OP to be forced into... and that it would make her the bigger person if she donated the prize money to a local women's shelter. If outing herself will make her lose being Jennifer, that's not fair... but neither is keeping that prize money.

[silhouette]

To reiterate - Jennifer competed under false pretenses.
She has not been back to tell us if she had the ba**s to confess and surrender the title and prizes.

lies.

she did come back, and she said that confessing would out herself, which she is not prepared to do!!!
back off you harpies, or I will get my beating stick

[Shelly Preston]

I am extremely dissappointed by those who say she should go and confess she competed under false pretences

We can argure the rights and wrongs of what she did by being sucked into competing ( her words )

I wonder how many here given the same situation would gladly out themselves this would spiral out of control rather quickly and none of us know what consequences this could have

Competeing but making sure you dont win would have been a safer option
Donating the winnings to charity is the best solution

[Iskandra]

The one thing that all you who say Jen should confess and come out seem to forget, is that it was a team tournament!
The other ladies on the team contributed to winning I assume, and coming out would embarrass them too, being innocent of anything other than accepting Jen for who she is, do they really deserve that? Jens wife will also be outed, she seems to have a hard time with it as it is, should she be forced into the choice of leaving, if there is a remote chance of acceptance down the line? The women who have shared things in confidence that they never would have to a male, rip away that support, leave them feeling betrayed, how will that affect them mentally?!

We don't know, and we have no right to say own up in a situation this complex!!
Next time you're getting your hair or nails done, ask yourself would the lass serving you be as open and chatty to you about her bf woes if she knew you were male?! Are you cheating the poor kid? hmm?! Many here want to pass, isn't that cheating?

As for strength and endurance, I think it's insulting to say men as a rule are stronger or have more endurance... That totally depends on lifestyle! Isn't feminism about equality in all aspects of life?

Anyway,I agree with most of you about the ethics of winning by deception, deliberate or otherwise, but your methods show very little of your femme sides that makes it a joy to be here!

A bad judgement call I think rather than cheating! No real harm was intended..
Lesson learnt! Sorry Ladies, can't play in the upcomming tournament because my shoulder is playing up!

Indeed donate the money to a womens charity, breast cancer has always been a favourite of mine.. This world needs more boobs, not less!
Hugs to all,

[LeannL]

At the risk of repeating myself, the experts consulted by the International Olympic Committee determined that for a male to loose the advantage of testosterone acting on one's muscles, a MTF athlete must have had surgery to remove the testes at least two years before competing. It doesn't make a difference how large a person you are, testosterone provides an advantage. So a non-op MTF would, according to the experts, have an advantage in these sorts of sport.

Leann

[GaleWarning]

I am extremely dissappointed by those who say she should go and confess she competed under false pretences

We can argure the rights and wrongs of what she did by being sucked into competing ( her words )

I wonder how many here given the same situation would gladly out themselves this would spiral out of control rather quickly and none of us know what consequences this could have

Competeing but making sure you dont win would have been a safer option
Donating the winnings to charity is the best solution

Shelly, my principles would not have allowed me to cheat as Jennifer did (Yes, I said, CHEAT).
So I would not have had to confess that I was not what I claimed to be.

And yes, there have been times in my life where I have had to do things which I would rather not have had to do.
What will happen on the day that Jennifer is exposed, as will surely happen?

We talk endlessly on this forum about not lying ... I agree with you that she should donate the winnings if she cannot bring herself to tell the truth.
I would call it, paying it forward.
But let's be clear about this ... she cannot keep the prizes.

[incognito]

Shelly, my principles would not have allowed me to cheat as Jennifer did (Yes, I said, CHEAT).
So I would not have had to confess that I was not what I claimed to be.

And yes, there have been times in my life where I have had to do things which I would rather not have had to do.
What will happen on the day that Jennifer is exposed, as will surely happen?

We talk endlessly on this forum about not lying ... I agree with you that she should donate the winnings if she cannot bring herself to tell the truth.
I would call it, paying it forward.
But let's be clear about this ... she cannot keep the prizes.

Let's first look at what happened, someone entered a contest in which he was actually not allowed to fit. Because of his gender.

His reason for doing it or his intention, was to make the world meet that which he wants to be. (sorry I'm all new in crossdressing and just joined up.) But so he did participate, not to win the prize cash, I do think it's fair to say the prize cash was not even in his mind at that time. And he thought of nothing but playing that role which he wanted. I think you all understand that since your all more experience then I am.

From his post however we state he has won, however we can also state it was not intentional to first play in the game. Secondly, the prize money was not important for him. So nothing bad done.

However ''he could have turned the price money down'' Yes he could've but he was told by a group of ladies to join, I do not know if these ladies know about him being male. If he passed the jury etc we should assume the sir in question is pretty femine. So having to explain the ladies he played with would have given him a hard time to do that. Which of course is not a excuse but would add up.

Then we are going to look at the problem why people feel bothered with it. Some say it was not justice to do such a action like taking the prize money. It's true that if he did not play someone else would have won. Who maybe had more rights to win that money. However a unjustified action would mean. ''Taking to much for yourself, and leaving nothing for others.'' While he said he has shared with the people in his team. Who wanted him to play.

Now let's say his team won, and he would have gotten his share from a team member. Would that be unjust ? Because he did not have any rights on the cash at all cause he is a male ?

So what we could call it or what I would call it is unintended cheating where he was no contumaciously aware of. Second problem having a hard time turning the cash down of course because then he has to throw all off and be like ''ok I'm a man''. Which might be hard, I for instance am even scared to order a bikini and wear it. I would die under the pressure he was in.

So his actions weren't right, nor where they the actions of a bad guy. So I would like to ask to leave the topic as it is. We all got our own ethics etc. But one thing is sure he did not participate to get the prize money. He did it with different intentions. Which is what counts in the end.

Oh sorry for referring with he and him, I see everyone uses her here. Sorry I'm not accustomed yet. However I would like to add as last to that her reasoning in the op was kinda wrong. She felt guilty but then came with a bad argument while she would not be. This does not help her cause. However I think my explanation might be the best one to cease the fire. Sorry again for not knowing the customs and using him and he. I could try to change it. But I must come with the bad excuse of arthritis troubling my elbows and not being able to type much as I just did. I'm sorry but I will try to do it better next time.

[GaleWarning]

Let's first look at what happened, someone entered a contest in which he was actually not allowed to fit. Because of his gender.

His reason for doing it or his intention, was to make the world meet that which he wants to be. (sorry I'm all new in crossdressing and just joined up.) But so he did participate, not to win the prize cash, I do think it's fair to say the prize cash was not even in his mind at that time. And he thought of nothing but playing that role which he wanted. I think you all understand that since your all more experience then I am.

From his post however we state he has won, however we can also state it was not intentional to first play in the game. Secondly, the prize money was not important for him. So nothing bad done.

However ''he could have turned the price money down'' Yes he could've but he was told by a group of ladies to join, I do not know if these ladies know about him being male. If he passed the jury etc we should assume the sir in question is pretty femine. So having to explain the ladies he played with would have given him a hard time to do that. Which of course is not a excuse but would add up.

Then we are going to look at the problem why people feel bothered with it. Some say it was not justice to do such a action like taking the prize money. It's true that if he did not play someone else would have won. Who maybe had more rights to win that money. However a unjustified action would mean. ''Taking to much for yourself, and leaving nothing for others.'' While he said he has shared with the people in his team. Who wanted him to play.

Now let's say his team won, and he would have gotten his share from a team member. Would that be unjust ? Because he did not have any rights on the cash at all cause he is a male ?

So what we could call it or what I would call it is unintended cheating where he was no contumaciously aware of. Second problem having a hard time turning the cash down of course because then he has to throw all off and be like ''ok I'm a man''. Which might be hard, I for instance am even scared to order a bikini and wear it. I would die under the pressure he was in.

So his actions weren't right, nor where they the actions of a bad guy. So I would like to ask to leave the topic as it is. We all got our own ethics etc. But one thing is sure he did not participate to get the prize money. He did it with different intentions. Which is what counts in the end.

Oh sorry for referring with he and him, I see everyone uses her here. Sorry I'm not accustomed yet. However I would like to add as last to that her reasoning in the op was kinda wrong. She felt guilty but then came with a bad argument while she would not be. This does not help her cause. However I think my explanation might be the best one to cease the fire. Sorry again for not knowing the customs and using him and he. I could try to change it. But I must come with the bad excuse of arthritis troubling my elbows and not being able to type much as I just did. I'm sorry but I will try to do it better next time.

Ah, the refreshing reaction of a newby. Welcome to this forum and the perplexities of when and where to use the appropriate pronoun!

I am glad you used "he" and " him", because that is the correct pronoun to use in this situation. "He" knew that "he" was not a "she" but chose not to reveal this. Fair enough!

"Unintended cheating" does not apply in this situation. Whether or not it is possible to cheat unintentionally, we will leave for the moment.

The only way out, which will enable "him" to retain "his" respectability (here in NZ we have a great Maori word, "mana", which means a great deal more than just respectability), would be for Jennifer to pay the money forward and give it to charity.

[Lorileah]

all it will take is someone to protest and this whole thing will come crashing down. It didn't happen this time but it will. Years ago I was on a highly competitive volleyball league. There was no "women's" league that was comparable so a woman joined our team. We won the championship (no she didn't present as a male, she was very obviously female and a very good player), yet two teams protested. There wasn't any money, I don't even know if there was a trophy. Yet two teams protested. So expect that if you do this again, you will be outed and you will have to do some explaining and if you are not transitioning expect you will be expected to withdraw and most likely you will be in the local paper. You will also have to be held up for some ridicule from the locals and it will be very difficult to be on any team in the area later on.

Beside all that if you are good enough to win at that level, you will probably be expected to move up eventually. If this has made you proud of who you are, congratulations. We all have our own limits. I would have never competed of a 7 1/2 foot net for volleyball. But that's me.

[Tina B.]

After reading this post for the third time, and having contributed to it already myself, I've come to the conclusion there is an under lying maleness taking place here. Guys take there sports seriously! I get the thrill of passing in front of a crowd that size, sure, but how would we feel having lost a competition just to find out the winner was not really suppose to be in that game anyway. And for you in the UK, in America if we can get two people to do just about anything against one another, and you can bet on it, we will call it a sport! And I'm surprised no one mentioned if and when she does get caught, it's another slap at all of us, oh well I guess the headline "Transvestite Outed winning womens bowling Torment, at local Bowling Ally, Accused of cheating", is better than that usual "Man in dress busted in Burglary." It's all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out.

Tina B.

[maya1love]

Oh my god, so much political correctness! Really sucks the fun out of dressing.

[sara.s]

Oh my god, so much political correctness! Really sucks the fun out of dressing.

That is US for you, my dear!

[Beverly]

@Jennifer. I'm a 165avg bowler and have been beaten by many GG's. What did you roll?

[Karren H]

Since Renee Richards played Pro Women's Tennis I thought it was not fair.... Still don't.

[GaleWarning]

Oh my god, so much political correctness! Really sucks the fun out of dressing.

Honestly is NOT politically correct. Cheating (or at least, bending the rules to suit one's own ends) is.

Jennifer has not been back to tell us of any remorse or payback or pay forward, so one concludes (reluctantly) that "he" has no intention of doing so.

No matter .... kharma, or whatever one prefers to call it, will eventually happen.

[charlene#2]

pins and bowling balls,every one has the same chance,let the pins fall where they may.i had a 212 average and still have been beaten by females,christ its not the end of the world,let it go

[incognito]

Honestly is NOT politically correct. Cheating (or at least, bending the rules to suit one's own ends) is.

Jennifer has not been back to tell us of any remorse or payback or pay forward, so one concludes (reluctantly) that "he" has no intention of doing so.

No matter .... kharma, or whatever one prefers to call it, will eventually happen.

It was not intentional and if you get attacked a lot in a topic. You started with happiness the disappointment in your fellow friends would get pulverised. So if the person has no intention of replying or might even feel bad for coming here again, you should see the door is locked. And further discussing won't open any.

[jenniferoonus]

It was not intentional and if you get attacked a lot in a topic. You started with happiness the disappointment in your fellow friends would get pulverised. So if the person has no intention of replying or might even feel bad for coming here again, you should see the door is locked. And further discussing won't open any.
Just to close this thread, First, I did not cash the check for my winning; Second, I will not compete any sporting events as Jennifer in the future, however, I will compete in ladies' dance competitions where GG have advantages over me. I am a good dancer too. Just to reiterate, my objective is not to win, I just want to be in the spot light as Jennifer, I want as many people as possible to see me as a female. I might open a new thread - 'Just won a ladies's dance competition' if I win (:

[ReineD]

Jennifer, if you like to be in the spotlight so much, why don't you post a pic of yourself in the Gallery?

By now, you've got an entire forum of CDers who are dying to know your secrets for passing so well. I can't imagine you'd not want to post a pic for fear of being "found out", since you are already very much out. :)

If you don't want to post a pic, do share why.

[Lorileah]

and no matter what you compete in you should let everyone know you are not a woman, even if you think you pass well enough to not tell. (wondering why you think women have an advantage in dance also). It isn't that you win, it is the deception in the process.

[jenniferoonus]

and no matter what you compete in you should let everyone know you are not a woman, even if you think you pass well enough to not tell. (wondering why you think women have an advantage in dance also). It isn't that you win, it is the deception in the process.
I cannot tell people that I am not a woman because I have already lived my life as a woman when I am Jennifer. My feeling is so strong that if one day someone find out that I am not a woman when I am Jennifer, Jennifer will just disappear completely in this world, whatever that means...


Jennifer, if you like to be in the spotlight so much, why don't you post a pic of yourself in the Gallery?

By now, you've got an entire forum of CDers who are dying to know your secrets for passing so well. I can't imagine you'd not want to post a pic for fear of being "found out", since you are already very much out. :)

If you don't want to post a pic, do share why.

The fact that I am already much out has stopped me from posting my picture as everyone who knows Jennifer doesn't know she is not a woman, and I strongly want to be a woman, not a man trying to be a woman. I have been extremely successful in achieving that, because no one knows that I am not a woman since I go out as Jennifer 20 years ago. If I post my picture, I will give everything away and I will not know what to do...may be Jennifer will never appear again in this world or I will go into a deep depression...
I really hope that someone out here understand my feeling, because I need all the supports I can get badly, so far, I think I am alone, either here or in the world out there.

[Lorileah]

So now I have to ask, do you live your life 24/7 as a woman? Or do you live teh majority of your life as a male?

[KandisTX]

So now I have to ask, do you live your life 24/7 as a woman? Or do you live teh majority of your life as a male?

according to another post by the OP, they claim that they are both "A Genetic Male and a Genetic Female". They also claim they are married and live full time as a man with their family but also live full time as Jen. I find this a little confusing myself, but that is what the OP claims in another thread they started.

[rhonda]

I don't know what kind of tourament you were in . scratch or handicap .sancktion or unscanktion you can not sign up without some kind of verif cation , the officials must really be stupid to let you in , but women think they can compete with men bowling they probly can so congrats

[jenniferoonus]

I don't know what kind of tourament you were in . scratch or handicap .sancktion or unscanktion you can not sign up without some kind of verif cation , the officials must really be stupid to let you in , but women think they can compete with men bowling they probly can so congrats

My wife works full time and I have taken a nice package from my company 5 years ago so I am lucky that I don't have to work. I have asked my wife to stop working and travel around the world with me but she really enjoy her work. My kids are not living with us. So, I am Jennifer on all weekdays (daytime) and a husband on weeknights and weekends. My wife is totally not accepting so she has never met Jennifer, I told her about Jennifer about 11 months ago. Currently, we are trying to work things out but its not promising...

I live in 2 completely separated worlds. In the Jennifer's world, all her friends only know her as a genetic female who married to a hushand with 2 kids. In my world as a husband, everyone (except my wife) only know me as a loving husband and fathers, none of them know about Jennifer.

Sounds confusing, I don't blame you as I am confuse too. I don't know what my future is but I am doing well right now, I just don't think too much of my future, life is too short! However, while I have many good friends in both worlds, I cannot discuss my situation with anyone of them as my 2 worlds don't cross. Hence I am here...but I didn't expect to receive so many discussions over my bowling. Can we all stop talking about bowling and talk about my unusual situation? I would really appreciate it. Thank you in advance. Jennifer

[Avana]

Putting icing on your head doesn't make you a cupcake. It's cheating.

this comment reeks of transphobia. as do many others in this thread.

if it's ok with the supreme court, it's probably ethical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards


I'm not a 'genetic woman', but legally I am female. If I were in a bowling league, what league would I join?

Is it also unfair if someone who wins a bowling competition was raised and trained by a professional bowler?

[KandisTX]

this comment reeks of transphobia. as do many others in this thread.

if it's ok with the supreme court, it's probably ethical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards


I'm not a 'genetic woman', but legally I am female. If I were in a bowling league, what league would I join?

Is it also unfair if someone who wins a bowling competition was raised and trained by a professional bowler?

Renee Richards was a TransSexual who had SRS and became a LEGAL female. The OP is a genetic male who bowled in a WOMEN'S competition, thereby CHEATING as they are NOT a Female, either by birth or by having had SRS. The main issue many have is that the OP claims they are a genetic female when they are "Jen", however they are still genetically MALE, and therefore NOT eligible to bowl in a WOMEN ONLY competition.

[Babeba]

The fact that I am already much out has stopped me from posting my picture as everyone who knows Jennifer doesn't know she is not a woman, and I strongly want to be a woman, not a man trying to be a woman. I have been extremely successful in achieving that, because no one knows that I am not a woman since I go out as Jennifer 20 years ago. If I post my picture, I will give everything away and I will not know what to do...may be Jennifer will never appear again in this world or I will go into a deep depression...
I really hope that someone out here understand my feeling, because I need all the supports I can get badly, so far, I think I am alone, either here or in the world out there.

I think I'm missing something here. What will you be giving away here if you post a picture of yourself and share with others in the same boat of wanting/needing to express their inner woman your tips, hints and tricks on how to appear 100% passable? It's not as though if someone on here recognized you as someone they knew in real life, that they could 'out' you as belonging to this website without 'outing' themselves. All of us GGs who have/do post pictures of our selves on here run the same risk as you do, with possibly being recognized. So do the many, many other CDers and other TG folk who post pictures of themselves as they usually go out. You're not alone in spending a lot of time dressed, but this board does tend to take you more seriously - and trust you more - if you share that trust with them by being yourself.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

once again we enter the fictionmania zone...

[jenniferoonus]

I think I'm missing something here. What will you be giving away here if you post a picture of yourself and share with others in the same boat of wanting/needing to express their inner woman your tips, hints and tricks on how to appear 100% passable? It's not as though if someone on here recognized you as someone they knew in real life, that they could 'out' you as belonging to this website without 'outing' themselves. All of us GGs who have/do post pictures of our selves on here run the same risk as you do, with possibly being recognized. So do the many, many other CDers and other TG folk who post pictures of themselves as they usually go out. You're not alone in spending a lot of time dressed, but this board does tend to take you more seriously - and trust you more - if you share that trust with them by being yourself.

I am sorry, then why didn't you post your picture?

My background is Internet security and I know very well once you posted your photos, they are open to the whole wide world, not just confined to the members here. If that's OK by you, I will post my partial picture.


once again we enter the fictionmania zone...

This shows that my situation is really unusual to the extend that you think it's a fiction...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

prior to this forum, i had been trolling the internet pretending to be a woman since 9600 baud rate was rocket speed..

i know the difference between real and fiction..i did like your story though..if you want to search for someone else's picture to use , i can give you some free access sites with lots of photos you can pick from...

[Avana]

Renee Richards was a TransSexual who had SRS and became a LEGAL female. The OP is a genetic male who bowled in a WOMEN'S competition, thereby CHEATING as they are NOT a Female, either by birth or by having had SRS. The main issue many have is that the OP claims they are a genetic female when they are "Jen", however they are still genetically MALE, and therefore NOT eligible to bowl in a WOMEN ONLY competition.

I am a legal female, without SRS.

All male to female transsexuals are 'genetic males', excepting those of course with abnormal chromosomes or intersex people who have been socialized male. Not all transsexuals undergo SRS. Not all transsexuals undergo HRT.

Obviously the OP exhibits transgender behavior of some sort, with her expressed desire that her femininity be legitimized. Who are you to tell her what her identity is or isn't?

Furthermore, many of the comments in this thread also demonstrate misogynist attitudes towards women - it's clear that many of you feel women to be inferior to men in such a way that a man's presence, even if he is smaller and daintier, is somehow automatically a threat and unfair to women, and that a women's bowling league is some represents some kind of handicap for this allegedly inferior sex.

Would it be unfair to men for a woman to bowl in a man's league?

By your logic, a genetic woman should be able to take Testosterone her whole life, get super ripped like Buck Angel, but never have a 'sex change surgery', and thus still be able to participate in sports with women, as a 'woman', and it would be 'cheating' to participate in a league with genetic men.

A Woman's League is not a handicapped league. It's also not a 'pull down your pants and show us what you got' league. A woman's bowling league is a social outlet for people who are socially women. Discriminating against transgender people in this way is bigotry plain and simple.

[Iskandra]

I still (after weeks) hear a lot of gripes and groans..
Geez girls! Someone is obviously reaching out for some support bowling aside!
Myself, I'm still as confused as the rest of you, but hostility will not fix that!

Jen, yes anything on the internet is out there, but at the same time, there is sooo much crap err data that somethings arent easiy found..
Jen and your male persona live in the same locality, perhaps their lives ARE seperate, but the thing that gets me (and i assume others) is going to the shop for milk as male, you would at some point in all these years bump into a lady that bowls with jen.. And despite what you think, when people know each other for a long time, character traits, mannerisms and features become obvious... Those that know Jen would see her even in genetic male form...

"It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time;
you can even fool some of the people all of the time;
but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time."


Lincoln said that, and its true..
I think dear Jen, the people here don't want to be in the fooled category...
And your story is a very big pill to swallow so i guess support does come with a price...

[ReineD]

Obviously the OP exhibits transgender behavior of some sort, with her expressed desire that her femininity be legitimized. Who are you to tell her what her identity is or isn't?

Avana, the issue is that Jennifer by her own admission is male at home with wife and kids and apparently has no plans to change this. Further, Jennifer claims to have a complete life outside of his/her home with people who have no idea who he/she is. There are very few middle aged GMs who can pull this off without HRT and the story does seem dubious. I don't know of any transwomen who, even if they chose to not have SRS or undergo HRT, would be satisfied with such a scenario especially over the long term.

I know we can't make a general rule for everyone, but it seems implausible for a transwoman to come in here and "brag" over having pulled the wool over everyone's eyes and to further seek more such competitions in order to be in the limelight again.

On the subject of competitions, male vs. female, there are established rules by sports organizations about this. I imagine they differ depending on the sport and level of professionalism, but don't they require someone to be on HRT for awhile, or have had their gender changed legally? Jennifer has not done this, and until he or she does, his or her actions are not ethical, and I think if was the self-congratulations over the whole thing that went against the grain here.

[Lorileah]

By your logic, a genetic woman should be able to take Testosterone her whole life, get super ripped like Buck Angel, but never have a 'sex change surgery', and thus still be able to participate in sports with women, as a 'woman', and it would be 'cheating' to participate in a league with genetic men. Weak arguments all around. Physiology and muscle make up put men in and women in different levels. In an ideal world you would have to qualify to participate regardless of gender. You would see then that the number of females who are able to qualify at that level would be low. Thus they would say it was unfair (welcome to Title IX which was also upheld by high courts} And using hormones (especially androgens are illegal no matter what genetic sex you are. They have been shown to enhance performance (which technically IS the issue here..the OP HAS androgens the rest the field has less. Thus the advantage)


A woman's bowling league is a social outlet for people who are socially women. this wasn'y social this was a paid competition. People drinking beer and not getting compensation is social. No problem there except I still think that to be fair, the fact that the OP has testosterone in higher levels than the rest of the group is an issue
Discriminating against transgender people in this way is bigotry plain and simple. I agree IF the discrimination makes the playing field unlevel. In this case the OP made the playing field unlevel. Just because you put on a dress does not make you a woman. By your logic in the next Olympic games all the US has to do is dress men and say they are transgendered in the women's sports.

I understand your point but the argument is weak and I believe that in day to day competition GG's would agree that this was unfair, so by your account the women are misogynistic which would be an oxymoron.

[Avana]

Weak arguments all around. Physiology and muscle make up put men in and women in different levels. In an ideal world you would have to qualify to participate regardless of gender. You would see then that the number of females who are able to qualify at that level would be low. Thus they would say it was unfair (welcome to Title IX which was also upheld by high courts} And using hormones (especially androgens are illegal no matter what genetic sex you are. They have been shown to enhance performance (which technically IS the issue here..the OP HAS androgens the rest the field has less. Thus the advantage)

Did I miss something in the thread? How do you know so much about the requirements of this bowling league? Did the OP win the olympics or something?

It just seems like there are a lot of assumptions being made. I don't even care if this is a fictional story, it's an interesting dilemma either way.


this wasn'y social this was a paid competition. People drinking beer and not getting compensation is social. No problem there except I still think that to be fair, the fact that the OP has testosterone in higher levels than the rest of the group is an issue I agree IF the discrimination makes the playing field unlevel. In this case the OP made the playing field unlevel. Just because you put on a dress does not make you a woman. By your logic in the next Olympic games all the US has to do is dress men and say they are transgendered in the women's sports.

I guess I just don't see how the playing field was unlevel here. Maybe I just don't know enough about bowling?

How do you know people weren't drinking beer? Did the OP say whether this was a professional bowling league or amateur?



I understand your point but the argument is weak and I believe that in day to day competition GG's would agree that this was unfair, so by your account the women are misogynistic which would be an oxymoron.

Of course women can be misogynist and/or chauvinistic (http://www.amazon.com/Female-Chauvinist-Pigs-Raunch-Culture/dp/0743249895). Just like transgender people can be transphobic (and many are). What gives you the authority to speak for all GGs, by the way?



---




Avana, the issue is that Jennifer by her own admission is male at home with wife and kids and apparently has no plans to change this. Further, Jennifer claims to have a complete life outside of his/her home with people who have no idea who he/she is. There are very few middle aged GMs who can pull this off without HRT and the story does seem dubious. I don't know of any transwomen who, even if they chose to not have SRS or undergo HRT, would be satisfied with such a scenario especially over the long term.

I know we can't make a general rule for everyone, but it seems implausible for a transwoman to come in here and "brag" over having pulled the wool over everyone's eyes and to further seek more such competitions in order to be in the limelight again.

On the subject of competitions, male vs. female, there are established rules by sports organizations about this. I imagine they differ depending on the sport and level of professionalism, but don't they require someone to be on HRT for awhile, or have had their gender changed legally? Jennifer has not done this, and until he or she does, his or her actions are not ethical, and I think if was the self-congratulations over the whole thing that went against the grain here.

I don't know, I see the points, but I've got to stick up for trans rights here.

Being at home with kids and a wife does not preclude a man from being transgender. Nor does the presence or absence of any specific action. Transgender is an identity issue.

This is a similar discussion to the bathroom dilemma that we face as well - what constitutes "permission" to use the women's restroom? Here in NYC transgender people have legal protection to use the restroom of their preference without having to jump through legal or medical hoops. Yet even with that protection, there are people who would still attempt to call the police on me or ban me from their establishment.

So speaking of ethics, I don't believe it is ethical to force transgender people to undergo certain medical or legal procedures in order to allow them to express their preferred gender.


Look, if I'm saying anything here, it's that we shouldn't be so quick to point the finger and yell 'CHEATER' at someone here. This situation is ethically complex, and there's a reason things like this have gone to the Supreme Court in the past.



And a solution:

Instead of dividing sports up men/women, we should do it more like boxing and have divisions like 'featherweight', 'heavyweight' etc, and just take gender out of the system entirely.

Unless it's for social reasons, in which case being transgender should not at all matter.

[Babeba]

I am sorry, then why didn't you post your picture?


Ummm, my picture IS up there. See the gal in the jeans and unbuttoned blazer, next to a wall with bricks in? Smelling some gorgeous purple flowers? That'd be yours truly. :D I did have a full face picture up there for quite a while and I've posted other pictures here and there on this site - I changed to this one because not only did I really like the picture and it reminds me of a wonderful time Crystal Alberta and I had exploring together (and the lovely SMELL of those flowers - they were incredible!) whenever I see one of my posts, but also as a subtle dig at Karren, our resident jeans-hater because I happen to think my bum is quite cute in that pair of jeans!

However, because I don't wear that much makeup and my bone structure/body hair is definitely genetically female to start with - I don't have much to go on in terms of advice I can give to CDers in order to make them passable. It'd be a shame to hide Jennifer's lovely, passable self and not give any tips to help other girls on here along!:battingeyelashes:

[GaleWarning]

=Avana;2533171I don't know, I see the points, but I've got to stick up for trans rights here.

.

Yeah, let's not give a damn about the rights of the women in the losing teams, or the organisers who have every right to specify what gender the competitors should be.
Get real! Stop thinking only within your narrow frame of reference.


And a solution:

Instead of dividing sports up men/women, we should do it more like boxing and have divisions like 'featherweight', 'heavyweight' etc, and just take gender out of the system entirely.

Poor example, boxing divisions are not genderless.

Down here in NZ, primary school sports like rugby are graduated according to weight, not age. Boys do not normally play against girls, except in teams from really small primary schools. And then everone knows the gender of each team member. Nothing is kept secret.

[Avana]

Yeah, let's not give a damn about the rights of the women in the losing teams, or the organisers who have every right to specify what gender the competitors should be.
Get real! Stop thinking only within your narrow frame of reference.

Sorry, but my sisters are getting assaulted for these kinds of things. This is the reality.

Check the end of my post for another realistic solution.



Poor example, boxing divisions are not genderless.

Down here in NZ, primary school sports like rugby are graduated according to weight, not age. Boys do not play against girls.

Yes, but they easily could be, which is the point, especially in a sport like Bowling. You're saying all of these things like 'boys do not play against girls' and 'boxing divisions are not genderless' as if they are some kind of natural law, written at the time the universe was created.

They aren't.

There are ways to change the system to be humane and protect the rights of transgender people to express their identity as they wish and also the rights of non transgender people to participate in fair competition.

[GaleWarning]

There are ways to change the system to be humane and protect the rights of transgender people to express their identity as they wish and also the rights of non transgender people to participate in fair competition.

I still think the rights of trans people should never supercede the rights of non-trans people, and vice versa.

I still think that you and others on this thread fail to grasp the real issue here, namely Jennifer's lies and deception.

[Avana]

I still think the rights of trans people should never supercede the rights of non-trans people, and vice versa.

I still think that you and others on this thread fail to grasp the real issue here, namely Jennifer's lies and deception.


There you have it, ladies and gentleman. The essence of transphobia. Right here on crossdressers.com.

[Babeba]

This is a similar discussion to the bathroom dilemma that we face as well - what constitutes "permission" to use the women's restroom?

So speaking of ethics, I don't believe it is ethical to force transgender people to undergo certain medical or legal procedures in order to allow them to express their preferred gender.


Look, if I'm saying anything here, it's that we shouldn't be so quick to point the finger and yell 'CHEATER' at someone here. This situation is ethically complex, and there's a reason things like this have gone to the Supreme Court in the past.



And a solution:

Instead of dividing sports up men/women, we should do it more like boxing and have divisions like 'featherweight', 'heavyweight' etc, and just take gender out of the system entirely.

Unless it's for social reasons, in which case being transgender should not at all matter.

It's been a while since I took that human biological variation class in university, but I can hazily recall discussing some of those biological differences that xx and xy impart on human beings. There is such a thing as gender, and such a thing as biological sex - and it is clearer nowhere else that I have been than on a board such as this where so many people don't have an overlap between the two. If I recall correctly, genetic males tend to have lower percentages of fatty tissue in their muscle, meaning that pound-for-pound, their muscle is stronger and steadier. Also, I have this vague idea (no sources I can pull out off the top of my head, though) that genetic males on the overall test as having a stronger hand-eye co-ordination than genetic females. Of course, there's some overlap between the categories, and individuals who are exceptional - and I SO WISH the NHL had let Hayley Wickenhauser play on a North American pro team, she would've wiped the floors with those boys - but the trend is there.

With those biological sex differences in mind, I can see some of the other female competitors in an all-female tournament being upset if they were to find out a fellow competitor was biologically male. There are enough bowling leagues out there which are mixed categories, that those who wish to play in a mixed - sex and/or gender environment are able to, without anyone thinking twice about it.

I think for many of the posters on this thread, there was a slight undertone of 'teehee, I got away with fooling them!' in the original post that may have hit them the wrong way. Like I had said before, it was a poor situation for the OP to have to deal with; difficult without outing herself or compromising her sense of sporting fair play. I'm glad that she didn't take the money for herself, but I really wish that she had donated it to a charity such as a women's shelter to help women in emergency situations like escaping prostitution or abusive relationships. Even better if she could find one that was trans-friendly! Donating the winnings to a place where they could do a lot of good might have undone some of the negativity built up by the original lie.

[GaleWarning]

There you have it, ladies and gentleman. The essence of transphobia. Right here on crossdressers.com.

Avana, I am the essence of total acceptance of the rights of all groups. You are the one who would claim special rights for your group at the expense of other groups.

[Avana]

It's been a while since I took that human biological variation class in university, but I can hazily recall discussing some of those biological differences that xx and xy impart on human beings. There is such a thing as gender, and such a thing as biological sex - and it is clearer nowhere else that I have been than on a board such as this where so many people don't have an overlap between the two. If I recall correctly, genetic males tend to have lower percentages of fatty tissue in their muscle, meaning that pound-for-pound, their muscle is stronger and steadier.

...


But by that 'biological' logic, we should also segregate races who show a trend of biological advantages against other races. (Or for that matter, people with longer legs, broader shoulders, etc.)

But we don't, because we protect the civil rights of races now (or purport to at least). This thread is just a big reminder to me of how far we have to come to get rights for transgender people.

I also believe women should be able to choose to compete with men if they wish, be they cis or trans women. I think the gender barrier in sports is an archaic division and that biology is not the issue here, but rather it is that as a society we have decided that gender should be the ultimate, indestructable, great divider of people.



Avana, I am the essence of total acceptance of the rights of all groups. You are the one who would claim special rights for your group at the expense of other groups.

Cis people already have the rights to be their preferred gender! This isn't special rights, it's equal rights!

And as I said, women both cis and trans should have the right to compete with men if they wish too! The whole problem is the rigidity of the gender structures, which both deprives transgender people of their rights and identities, and enforces misogynistic tendencies. We should divide athletes by age, skill, strength, stamina, etc. Not what's between their legs.

[Babeba]

There you have it, ladies and gentleman. The essence of transphobia. Right here on crossdressers.com.

Would you mind clarifying here, Avana? I'm not sure I follow.

What I think I'm reading from Clayfish is that the right of one person shouldn't trump the right of another person, first and foremost. Second, that it's deceitful to enter into a private contest and withold information that may be relating to the competition.

I definitely agree that this (transgender team sports) is a TOTAL grey zone, that it's incredibly complex and there are no easy answers other than to blanket exclude people (which isn't fair, either). My personal take is that if others in the competition can't give informed consent and it is a strict 'female only' competition when mixed categories are available somewhere (as is generally the case with bowling) then the player in Jennifer's position probably ought to be in the mixed category. In the situation where Jennifer felt forced to play, perhaps she could have had an "out-of-town trip" or scheduling conflict? It's entirely one thing to play for fun, and something quite different when the competitive level raises.


But by that 'biological' logic, we should also segregate races who show a trend of biological advantages against other races. (Or for that matter, people with longer legs, broader shoulders, etc.)

But we don't, because we protect the civil rights of races now (or purport to at least). This thread is just a big reminder to me of how far we have to come to get rights for transgender people.

I also believe women should be able to choose to compete with men if they wish, be they cis or trans women. I think the gender barrier in sports is an archaic division and that biology is not the issue here, but rather it is that as a society we have decided that gender should be the ultimate, indestructable, great divider of people.




Cis people already have the rights to be their preferred gender! This isn't special rights, it's equal rights!

And as I said, women both cis and trans should have the right to compete with men if they wish too! The whole problem is the rigidity of the gender structures, which both deprives transgender people of their rights and identities, and enforces misogynistic tendencies. We should divide athletes by age, skill, strength, stamina, etc. Not what's between their legs.

There are certain fields where dividing up by genetic ethnic characteristics are useful; identifying possible murder victims from skeletal remains, for example. Yet the fact that certain 'races' tend to dominate certain sports is more so a sociocultural phenomenon and a training phenomenon than a 'racial' phenomenon. Many pro athletes in the 1920's to 1950's were Jewish, as young people sought sports scholarships to lift themselves from racial segretation and ghettoes; today much the same case can be made to explain the many black athletes in professional sports.

The thing that makes gender rights in sports tricky is the overlap (or lack of) with biological sex. There ARE undeniable differences between being biologically male and biologically female. If you were to compare a list of the top GM marathon runners' times with the top GG times, the fastest biologically female marathon runner wouldn't make the top 10 by over 10 minutes (a huge margin in that sort of a race). From top-level sports, it's a slippery slope down to amateur leagues and frankly based on the OP's context it sounded like genetically male competitors were NOT welcome in that particular contest. That's fine, there are other contests open to them. Just as much as there should be space made for any woman (cis or trans) to compete with men if they choose, there should be space made for those who choose to compete with the same biological gender as they are. That is equal rights - allowing people to choose how and when to compete, rather than banning them from play because of predjudice.

I'm all for equal gender rights - equality is good. Equal rights in expressing gender doesn't erase biological differences; if it did, no-one would have to take HRT or do invasive surgery to correct their birth-defect sex.

[NicoleScott]

I'm not a 'genetic woman', but legally I am female. If I were in a bowling league, what league would I join?

Good question. Simple answer. Ask the league officials. Renee Richards didn't try to sneak into competition by hiding her sex or gender. If you want to compete as a woman, lay it all out there and let the tounament officials or sanctioning body decide. If you don't like their decision, take it to the courts, as Renee Richards did.
It's not up to individuals wanting to compete to make these decisions, in fairness to the other competitors.


this comment reeks of transphobia. as do many others in this thread.

This was your response to my "icing on your head" comment. So if I say that putting a wig on doesn't make you a woman, I am transphobic? Common response that if you can't win the argument, attack the person. CD's who prefer not to be assumed gay are homophobic? If you disagree with Obama's policies, you are racist?
As a crossdresser, I fall under the umbrella term "transgendered". I put a wig on, but that doesn't make me a woman. That's transphobia?

[AllieSF]

Babeba: Your request and questioning for a pic has been handled numerous times in other threads on this site. Read those for all the reasons why people do not put their pics up. Your pic is profile and mine is a silhouette, Big deal. Pics here don't prove anything because many pics here are so doctored that they are totally unrecognizable. The topic is winning a formal tournament as a man in female attire.

Jennifer should not have done that.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Avana one thing you may not be considering is that regardless of the intricate scientific, cultural, and societal implications....rules are rules...

You can change the rules, you can try to finagle your way to get by..."dirty hits" in football and hockey, "traveling" with the basketball for example..
and yes, we have mostly mens and womens sports..we can discuss whether that concept is archaic...

but frankly i think we should take a second and consider that in bowling, people take their rules VERY SERIOUSLY... and bowling is progressive in the sense that there are co-ed leagues, and men and women freely compete..

every league i've ever been in was co-ed, and women get no advantage over men, or vice versa..

women only and men only leagues also exist... so everyone is covered..

to a bowler that cares about their sport (and yes, i called it a sport.some would disagree with this), cheating is a mortal offense...it is lowest of low, i had a teammate cheat, and he was asked to never return to the entire bowling alley!!

and someone that claims to win a tournament as a woman, when they are a man in every way is cheating..

and to take it a step further, I would argue that this OP's story is something that transmen and transwomen should care about because it is exactly what cisgendered people are afraid of..there are transsexuals in professional racing, professional golf, professional tennis, donna rose wrestled in the national female wrestling tournament...it gets better for us all the time....the last thing we need is somebody crossdressing and stealing money off a bunch of ladies in a local bowling league..

[PretzelGirl]

Did I miss something in the thread? How do you know so much about the requirements of this bowling league? Did the OP win the olympics or something?

Well, since she said it is a women's tournament, we do know that. And we also know that she identifies as a male.


It just seems like there are a lot of assumptions being made. I don't even care if this is a fictional story, it's an interesting dilemma either way.

This is true. The OP has been asked some things that have been left unanswered.


I guess I just don't see how the playing field was unlevel here. Maybe I just don't know enough about bowling?

How do you know people weren't drinking beer? Did the OP say whether this was a professional bowling league or amateur?

Generally men carry higher averages than women. Is it biological or do more men want to compete at a higher level than women that may like it more for the social value? That can be a lot of discussion on its own. I do know a lot of women that pay to get into tournaments totally for the social value and fun while knowing they probably aren't going to get a dime in prizes. The men tend to be more about the competition and money. So a man in a women's tournament could easily have an advantage going in. Plus the sheer there are far more men that bowl in leagues and tournaments than women.

Interesting note. The USBC is the governing agency in the US for sanctioned bowling. On the amateur front, there is the USBC Tournament which was historically for men but now allows women to compete in it. And some of those women have taken top prizes. Then there is the USBC Women's Championship for women only, no men.



Look, if I'm saying anything here, it's that we shouldn't be so quick to point the finger and yell 'CHEATER' at someone here. This situation is ethically complex, and there's a reason things like this have gone to the Supreme Court in the past.

I agree with it being complex (and this thread is proof). But the way things are structured now (not counting better ways of doing things as society evolves), it comes down to genetic markers. If the OP has a license/birth certificate that says male, then when entering competition, that is how they should enter. If she wants to enter women's competition, then make the moves to changes that marker. What ever the laws may be on what it takes to change a marker and whether we agree with those laws or not, that is what we have to work with until they are improved (and is certainly yet another thread possibility).

And this is why I believe this could only have been unsanctioned competition. To be sanctioned with the USBC or the PBA (the pros), you claim your sex and provide your social security number (winnings can be taxed). We can separately argue whether it is right to separate people by M or F but the fact is that this tournament was done now and not in the future so we should abide by laws and moral obligations of the here and now. If we want to improve things, we won't be doing that by trying to be deceptive.

[Avana]

Avana one thing you may not be considering is that regardless of the intricate scientific, cultural, and societal implications....rules are rules...

Yes, that's understood. I am saying the rules need to be changed. That's why we have a democratic (and I use that term loosely) process. If 'rules were rules' forever, we'd still have people suffering as slaves.



and to take it a step further, I would argue that this OP's story is something that transmen and transwomen should care about because it is exactly what cisgendered people are afraid of..

Let me get this straight - transgender people should condone transphobia against them? To compare this to another civil rights struggle, it would be like saying that blacks should care about where they sit on the bus, because white people are afraid of them and giving up their good bus seats. Sorry, but to me the OP is a non-op, noho transgender rosa parks. Is it transgressive? Absolutely.


Good question. Simple answer. Ask the league officials. Renee Richards didn't try to sneak into competition by hiding her sex or gender. If you want to compete as a woman, lay it all out there and let the tounament officials or sanctioning body decide. If you don't like their decision, take it to the courts, as Renee Richards did.
It's not up to individuals wanting to compete to make these decisions, in fairness to the other competitors.


I agree that while transgender rights are still in the stone age, it's a good idea to talk to officials first. If it goes south, she can involve the media and legal agencies and also protest, and it would draw attention to transgender rights in a larger way. However, I don't believe that a transgender person should have to expose their history in this way, it's a personal decision to do so, and comes down to personal ethics. I would personally have no problem doing so, but there are a lot of transgender people who live 'deep stealth' who should not need to compromise their identities this way. The OP is more or less deep stealth in this league, according to her description.



This was your response to my "icing on your head" comment. So if I say that putting a wig on doesn't make you a woman, I am transphobic? Common response that if you can't win the argument, attack the person. CD's who prefer not to be assumed gay are homophobic? If you disagree with Obama's policies, you are racist?
As a crossdresser, I fall under the umbrella term "transgendered". I put a wig on, but that doesn't make me a woman. That's transphobia?

Yes, that is a transphobic and ignorant statement. It is because it is a blanket statement. If you don't feel like a woman when you put a wig on, that's your thing. But there are thousands of non-op, no-hormone transgender individuals out there for whom clothing or wigs may be the way in which they express their identity, and to reject their gender expression across the board in this way is most definitely transphobic.

Yes, it is quite obviously homophobic to be afraid as being perceived as gay.

I'm really not sure how this Obama comment you made is relevant - If you disagree with Obama's policies, it would most likely make you a republican...


Would you mind clarifying here, Avana? I'm not sure I follow.

Sure. Transphobia includes demeaning words, thoughts, actions about transgender people. The comments this individual made are quite clear in that they don't believe transgender identity is as legitimate as cisgender identity. That's the definition of transphobia. Then this individual went on to say that the OP was a 'liar' and 'deceiver', which are two common transphobic perceptions of transgender people. This is the very excuse used by men who murder their transgender dates when they find out their history.



What I think I'm reading from Clayfish is that the right of one person shouldn't trump the right of another person, first and foremost. Second, that it's deceitful to enter into a private contest and withold information that may be relating to the competition.

We're talking about minority rights, and we live in a society where minority rights have always prevailed. And also, competing without transgender people is not a civil right of any kind. It's discrimination. The equivalent to a historical struggle would be like saying that the rights of Rosa Parks to ride at the front of a bus should not trump the 'rights' that white people supposedly have to that seat by virtue of their genetics. It's patently bigoted, and wrong.



Well, since she said it is a women's tournament, we do know that. And we also know that she identifies as a male.

In her OP, she said 'At one point I was thinking that this was not fair to the GG participants, but I told myself that I am not a male either'.

She doesn't identify as male, she is transgender.



If the OP has a license/birth certificate that says male, then when entering competition, that is how they should enter.

This sort of thing is tricky. This requires medical permission, which requires the money to procure a doctor. Many young and minority transgender individuals cannot afford the kind of medical attention and the legal fees associated with name and gender marker change. This should not be a privilege of affluent transgender people, but an inalienable right of all.

[TGMarla]

Wow! What a thread! Or is it a can of worms?

I have to agree with Nicole, Lorileah, and others here who see this as cheating. Sorry Avana, but your lifelong struggles with gender identity have clouded your ability to see the reality of the situation here. Men and women are different on the cellular level, and their muscle structure is different from one another's. And whereas you could say the same about race (this topic is tackled in a really good, if not a little dry, book entitled "Taboo" by Jon Entine), the argument still remains that there is an advantage for genetic men when it comes to physical competition. That is not to say that some women cannot beat men at sports. But Jen entered this competition under false pretenses, and won the competition. Ergo, she cheated.

I am all for the transgendered being allowed to express one's gender identity without prejudice. But some lines cannot be erased. Even very successfull SRS and ensuing surgeries cannot change one's genetic structure. While a male may attain the ability to live life as a female, he cannot ever be truly female, even if we recognize her to be so. Avana's vision of this perfect world where all is equal is a grand illusion, but idealistic at best.

Jen, I'm happy that you are able to pass as a woman so well. I'm sad that your situation with your wife is so messed up. Your continuing to live this double life is never going to help that situation. If you're telling us the truth, then you must be a very effeminate male to begin with. I wish you well in your endeavors, but you need to nurture your ethics a bit.

[Lorileah]

There you have it, ladies and gentleman. The essence of transphobia. Right here on crossdressers.com.

Excuse me? I know a lot about Clay and transphobia isn't part of them. How is calling out someone for deception being transphobic? This is getting out of hand. In a perfect world Serena Williams would be able to compete against Roger Federer and on any given day as in any given sport she could win. But she would lose far more than she would win. Both are the top of their game. Horses race without regard to gender and usually the males beat the females with a few exceptions (see Zenyatta). IF this was truly a level field when you went to horse races there would be equal males and females. But the males win more frequently (probably 90% of the time) so it isn't an economic reality. There is one women competing against the men in the PBA and she won a tournament but if one of the men went to the women's league, they would have a higher success rate.

It isn't misogyny it is reality. Steeped in thousands of years of evolution. The frame and the muscles are different. Sports were invented to fit the male form. In some cases women may be able to go head to head with the top men, but in most cases they cannot. It is the opposite men vs women.

Life is what it is. There are hurdles that will need to be overcome. What one wears should not be an issue. How one feels should not be an issue. Yet just by saying you feel like a women has it's own prejudice. How does a woman feel differently than a male? Eventually the gender or sex of a person may not matter in a physical contest. But your arguments that just any male could compete in a female arena is spurious. It is unfair. Your example of the Supreme court was based on the fact that Ms Richards no longer had male hormones. She had undergone surgery that changed physical characteristics along with changing hormones. If a woman used androgens she would violate the rules of a sport where being female is the rule. These cases have been shown to give unfair advantage. If she were to take the hormones and compete with males, the field would be more level. If the OP had been on testosterone blockers (or castrated) and had lived long enough this way to not have the hormones effect the muscles, then no problem. But she didn't. She has admitted to being masculine and feminine as she wishes. What it is is a violation of fair play and sports(person)ship. It is ethics. The OP's ethics are not what the majority here would agree with. Not that this is unusual in the sports world especially in modern times. What is the quote "winning is everything"?

As an athlete, and not a great one but fairly average, I want to compete in a fair manner. As I stated before at one time I was a fairly good volleyball player, high comp level, and had I competed against women in their sport with their rules I would have been a very dominant force. (PS at the same time there were many women who were competing in the pro-level with men but they used men's set up and rules). But it wasn't what I wanted. It would not have been fair. You see that being TG as being unfair and needing to e accommodated. I see taking advantage of such as being unfair.

and with that I am done with this thread.

[docrobbysherry]

I always admit I CHEAT to appear to be a female. So, who here doesn't? Who doesn't wear makeup and/or a wig, etc., etc.? Maybe only the GGs?

Who here wouldn't LOVE to pass as well as Jen does? Whether she's for real or not?

WHERE should we draw the line with proof of gender testing? To get 1/2 price drinks on "Ladies nite" at the bar, what SHOULD be required?

Wear a dress?
Dress plus makeup, forms, and a wig?
Show that u have REAL breasts?
Bare your crotch?
Maybe, carry your birth certificate?
:eek:

Doesn't ANYONE get what Jen's thread and the accompanying posts r REALLY ABOUT?:brolleyes:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

avana you said "Let me get this straight - transgender people should condone transphobia against them? To compare this to another civil rights struggle, it would be like saying that blacks should care about where they sit on the bus, because white people are afraid of them and giving up their good bus seats. Sorry, but to me the OP is a non-op, noho transgender rosa parks. Is it transgressive? Absolutely."

(Sorry i don't do well with multiquote)

First off, taking it to this level will get you nowhere with people that are open to discussion..it is nothing like saying black people sit in the back of the bus...that is just baloney and worthless rhetoric...at least you didn't bring up the holocaust..
it is exactly what it is...cheating at sports.

Screaming transphobia at everybody is a great big yawn..it is a personal attack on me from you and i resent it. Shame on you...

Real transphobia is deadly, but you are marginalizing your own standing to fight it by throwing it around so casually...
you are enabling transphobia by your scattershot approach to using that word...

my comment was aimed at the silly fear people have that trans people have some secret agenda...that we want to sneak into bathrooms, that there are "Sex-changers" getting ahead in track and field...we all know that's ridiculous, but here we have a person who dresses as a female and brags about winning as a female in a tournament...

nobody likes cheaters, and i don't want my fate to be tied to cheaters..the story isn't true anyway..

[Avana]

You see that being TG as being unfair and needing to e accommodated. I see taking advantage of such as being unfair.

See this is where it gets really simple. The burden of proof here is on you to prove that the OP is taking advantage being TG, versus expressing her identity.

What you are saying amounts to 'transgender people should either be excluded from sports or humiliated and forced to participate as their birth gender', or they have to jump through gatekeeper medical and legal hoops in order to erase their transgender identity

I mean, you do realize that women have been barred from participating in sports at all in history, under the tyranny of these same 'biological' and social truths, right? Good thing we have idealists...

And to whoever said it, yes, I am absolutely idealistc, and I think in my lifetime we will see some major advances for transgender people in this way.



First off, taking it to this level will get you nowhere with people that are open to discussion..it is nothing like saying black people sit in the back of the bus...that is just baloney and worthless rhetoric...at least you didn't bring up the holocaust..
it is exactly what it is...cheating at sports.


I recommend this article:
http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/magazine/90519/transgender-civil-rights-gay-lesbian-lgbtq?passthru=NzQ2OTlhODJkM2Y3ODQzYzZlMTQ5MjQ4ZjA 1Yzg0YmE



Screaming transphobia at everybody is a great big yawn..it is a personal attack on me from you and i resent it. Shame on you...

Real transphobia is deadly, but you are marginalizing your own standing to fight it by throwing it around so casually...
you are enabling transphobia by your scattershot approach to using that word...

I used the term with regard to members of the forum to characterize two specific statements. I'd hardly call that 'screaming transphobia at everybody'. It is what it is. You don't own the word either.



my comment was aimed at the silly fear people have that trans people have some secret agenda...that we want to sneak into bathrooms, that there are "Sex-changers" getting ahead in track and field...we all know that's ridiculous, but here we have a person who dresses as a female and brags about winning as a female in a tournament...

nobody likes cheaters, and i don't want my fate to be tied to cheaters..the story isn't true anyway..

I did not really get bragging from this.

[Tara D. Rose]

I'm afraid to say anything here.

[ReineD]

I am saying the rules need to be changed.

There are two distinct discussions going on here. The first was about whether or not it was OK for Jennifer to disregard the rules that most people in this thread assumed were in place, since it was a women's and not a mixed competition, for prize money. To her credit, Jennifer did come in and say she did not cash her winnings, but this wasn't until two days ago, more than one month after she began the thread and people had voiced their disapproval.

Your point is equally valid. You are saying existing rules are antiquated and need to be changed. I don't think anyone in this thread disputes this.

You yourself say that speaking to officials prior to the competition is the best way to go, yet Jennifer did not do this and I got the impression she was boasting more about having won and further having fooled everyone than just being proud that she was accepted as the transwoman or woman that she is. In prior postings and in this one as well, Jennifer does say that she is both male and female.

Really, I don't see what we are all arguing about since we all seem to agree on the major points? :)

[GaleWarning]

Avana said, Sure. Transphobia includes demeaning words, thoughts, actions about transgender people. The comments this individual made are quite clear in that they don't believe transgender identity is as legitimate as cisgender identity. That's the definition of transphobia. Then this individual went on to say that the OP was a 'liar' and 'deceiver', which are two common transphobic perceptions of transgender people. This is the very excuse used by men who murder their transgender dates when they find out their history.

1. Thanks for your definition of "transphobia". It enables me to refute your arguments.
2. I stated clearly that I believe transgender and cisgender rights to have equal status. So you seem unable to read for understanding.
This is not a transphobic statement; it is a reasoned conclusion.
3. I certainly believe that the OP lied about "his" true gender. This may be my perception of the OP, but I am willing to bet on it's truth value. Again, you are mistaken if you think I am picking on the OP because "he" is trans. I speak out against falsehoods at every opportunity, regardless of gender, race, creed etc.
4. I am very unlikely to murder anyone.

Avana, your rantings convince me that you would do well to seek professional help.

[NicoleScott]

I said (in post #108) "So if I say that putting a wig on doesn't make you a woman, I am transphobic?"
--and--
"I put a wig on, but that doesn't make me a woman. That's transphobia?"



Yes, that is a transphobic and ignorant statement. It is because it is a blanket statement.

Darn right it's a blanket statement, because it's always true. You may feel more feminine, but you don't become a woman by putting on a wig. And to call it transphobia is nothing more than boo-hoo-I'm-a-victim-why-is-everyone-always-picking-on-me. It's ridiculous.

Lorileah said it best "...and with that I am done with this thread."

and with that I am done with this thread.

[jenniferoonus]

prior to this forum, i had been trolling the internet pretending to be a woman since 9600 baud rate was rocket speed..

i know the difference between real and fiction..i did like your story though..if you want to search for someone else's picture to use , i can give you some free access sites with lots of photos you can pick from...

Hey, please make sure you have enough evidence before you made the conclusion that my situation is not real, that it's just a story I created. I feel so insulted!!!

I found out from your profile that you live in NJ, I am from NJ too. I challenge you to come with Jennifer to her world and verify that my situation is true. What I need from you is an apology in this thread after your verification.

[Avana]

There are two distinct discussions going on here. The first was about whether or not it was OK for Jennifer to disregard the rules that most people in this thread assumed were in place, since it was a women's and not a mixed competition, for prize money. To her credit, Jennifer did come in and say she did not cash her winnings, but this wasn't until two days ago, more than one month after she began the thread and people had voiced their disapproval.

Your point is equally valid. You are saying existing rules are antiquated and need to be changed. I don't think anyone in this thread disputes this.

You yourself say that speaking to officials prior to the competition is the best way to go, yet Jennifer did not do this and I got the impression she was boasting more about having won and further having fooled everyone than just being proud that she was accepted as the transwoman or woman that she is. In prior postings and in this one as well, Jennifer does say that she is both male and female.

Really, I don't see what we are all arguing about since we all seem to agree on the major points? :)

We don't even know that this really happened. Boasting about winning anything is poor sportsmanship any way you look at it. I didn't get that impression, maybe naturally bemused and perhaps still glowing from her positive trans-experience, but that's all I get.

I guess I would also say that joining a competitive league in order to validate your gender ID is the wrong reason for joining, but it's technically not necessarily cheating (we don't know what the rules are), just selfish. I would say that this is more the case for professional leagues than for amateur leagues, which, while competitive, are also social outlets.

My point is that while I personally would confront the officials about it, both to avoid problems and to open a potentially positive dialogue about transgender participation in sports, there are plenty of transgender people who just want to live their lives as their preferred gender without needing to ask permission to be themselves all of the time. I certainly for instance would never go up to the maitre d' of a restaurant and say "Psssst... I'm a pre-op transexual who has been on hormones X months, can I use your ladies' room?". Some women may feel uncomfortable that someone like me uses that restroom, but my rights to use that restroom would be upheld without a doubt in any legal situation, even before I began hormones or changed my name and gender designations. I think the crucial right of transgender people here is to be able to express their gender identity without having to compromise their history and be publicly humiliated.

I think it's up to the individual rules of the league to say what the rules are for transgender participation. None of us know what those rules are or if they even exist. If those rules were written out for the OP when she signed up, then she obviously cheated. Many here are assuming something they do not really know.

Having said that, any leagues that pass rules precluding transgender participation are probably asking for a discrimination lawsuit, at least in some places, like NYC, where I live.

So there are two different levels of discussion happening here, yes - on one hand we can talk about the behavior of this individual, which may or may not have even happened, but I don't think any of us know enough information or even have the right to judge this individual for doing what she did. You know, whether her motives for joining and competing were selfish and poorly considered, etc. As I said, I wouldn't have done what she did, but I respect her right to be private about her transgender identity.

On the other hand, many people in this thread have gone further to make blanket statements about all transgender people, telling them how they are allowed to live their lives, comments which are extremely narrow-minded, negative, and exclusionist (since I'm not allowed to use that T word). So it's clear that the issue is larger than this one instance, and the discussion is really about many things:

Is participating in a gendered competition as a transgender person without telling anyone 'Cheating'
No, it's not cheating. This very accusation of cheating and deception is often used as a defense for abuser, assailants, and murderers of transgender individuals. We have a right to withhold our past and to be who we want to be. It's even harder to call it cheating without even knowing the rules of the competition.

It is, however, ethically treacherous, and only because there has not been sufficient social dialogue on the issue. We as a society need to take up the issue of gender identity and gender identity rights and analyze how our system can protect those rights along with the rights that cis gender/gender conforming people have already.

What constitutes a transgender person?
Transgender people do not need to be on hormones, have surgery, or pass as some kind of stereotype of a gender role to be transgender. Transgenderism is in its broadest sense a dissonance between one's preferred gender expression and the gender he or she was assigned at birth. I think it's probably a good idea at this point in time for transgender people should seek out some kind of expert testimony to their condition for their own protection (ie, it doesn't hurt to have a letter from your doctor saying you are indeed transgender in case someone raises a stink), but ideally one should not need to do this to exercise their inalienable right to trans-gender expression.

What is a sensible and fair way to organize competitive sports while protecting the rights of transgender individuals to be their preferred gender?
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think sports should be reformed to be inclusive of all genders and gender non conforming people. Dividing things up along gender lines has a tenuous biological basis. In other words, in some sports, people with higher levels of T from birth might dominate and in some sports people with higher levels of E might dominate. In some sports, people of different racial backgrounds dominate - that doesn't make it OK to segregate sports according to racial lines.

Instead, sports should be gender-neutral and divided between levels of strength, age, etc, similar to the way boxing has different competitive spheres. Would 'men' dominate some sports in this model? Absolutely. Women would dominate others. Women who are standouts such as Serene and Venus Williams would have the opportunity to compete against all people of their caliber, not just 'women'.

Yes, this is radical. But it's the only fair way to include everyone and to reform old, opressive, exclusionist gender structures.

Must we protect the rights of transgender individuals to their privacy regarding their history?
Yes. Transgender individuals have a right to be who they want to be without needing to ask permission at every turn. In the competitive system I proposed earlier, there would be no question of fairness for their participation since transgender individuals would be evenly matched by virtue of their strength, weight, age, etc against cis and trans gender individuals of any type.



I said (in post #108) "So if I say that putting a wig on doesn't make you a woman, I am transphobic?"
--and--
"I put a wig on, but that doesn't make me a woman. That's transphobia?"

Darn right it's a blanket statement, because it's always true. You may feel more feminine, but you don't become a woman by putting on a wig. And to call it transphobia is nothing more than boo-hoo-I'm-a-victim-why-is-everyone-always-picking-on-me. It's ridiculous.

Lorileah said it best "...and with that I am done with this thread."

and with that I am done with this thread.

With that attitude, good riddance.



Avana, your rantings convince me that you would do well to seek professional help.

This is a belittling statement, and I'm going report it to the moderators, if they haven't already seen it first. No none needs this kind of patronizing, negative talk on this forum, which supposed to be a support forum.

And for your information, next week is my concluding appointment with my gender therapist. You would do well to keep your opinions about professional help to yourself.

[jenniferoonus]

I still (after weeks) hear a lot of gripes and groans..
Geez girls! Someone is obviously reaching out for some support bowling aside!
Myself, I'm still as confused as the rest of you, but hostility will not fix that!

Jen, yes anything on the internet is out there, but at the same time, there is sooo much crap err data that somethings arent easiy found..
Jen and your male persona live in the same locality, perhaps their lives ARE seperate, but the thing that gets me (and i assume others) is going to the shop for milk as male, you would at some point in all these years bump into a lady that bowls with jen.. And despite what you think, when people know each other for a long time, character traits, mannerisms and features become obvious... Those that know Jen would see her even in genetic male form...

"It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time;
you can even fool some of the people all of the time;
but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time."


Lincoln said that, and its true..
I think dear Jen, the people here don't want to be in the fooled category...
And your story is a very big pill to swallow so i guess support does come with a price...

I am not fooling anyone in this board, what I have said is true. I have asked a member of this board to join Jennifer in person to her world just to verify that what I said is true.

[jenniferoonus]

Can we all stop wasting time debating my bowling situation? The 'league' is just a very small get together for fun kind of event, it was not an official league, not event close!!!! So, let's stop debating!

However, just want to reiterate that Jennifer's 2 separate worlds, 100% female and 100% male, is 100% true.

[Daintre]

Put the knives away, this post is done.