A question of virility

[Frédérique]

Virility – that is so MALE! Or is it? :thinking:

I’ve been working (on and off) on a thread about masculine characteristics for the past month, but I keep thinking that this topic would anger some members – out in the world I can’t help but notice unconscious displays of masculinity everywhere I look, making a note to myself to “not do that.” I may be alone in this constant pruning of one’s maleness, so why regurgitate my observations and findings to the MtF membership? I mean, I’m SUPPOSED to be “a quiet girl,” correct?
:doh:

I’m lifting this out of context, but the other night on TV a male narrator was admiring a painted portrait of a bearded gentleman, and he said, “His whiskers indicate his virility.” I started to think about this curious word, and the notion of being virile, as it relates to MtF crossdressing. When you think of virility, the word “manliness” may immediately come to mind, along with other terms like potency, vigor, forcefulness, ruggedness, and so forth. Masculinity implies virility, and, for a boy, there are many masculine role models we are told (or taught) to emulate. I assume that a male is supposed to project a certain virility to attract females, all with an aye towards procreation and fulfilling a pre-determined path through life...

OK, so what happens to virility when a man chooses to dress as a woman? If he is virile to begin with, does he tuck this virility away with the rest of his “equipment,” and step away from his male role in society, i.e. what is expected of him? I know that some of us, comfortable with our crossdressing, have no problem with issues of virility, but I get the feeling that crossdressers who are relatively new to this may struggle with the idea of turning one’s back on virility and suffering any imaginary consequences. It may seem like a crime to undermine attractiveness to the other gender (or anyone, for that matter), and consciously do things that are contrary to the programming you received (based on your gender), but this swimming against the tide grows on you, believe me...

Effeminacy is the opposite of virility, and it follows that impotency is an antonym for potency. If we dress, emulate, act like, walk like, talk like, or try to actually be women, we are the unabashed practitioners of effeminacy. It does NOT mean we are impotent simply because we dress a certain way, but this unfair denouncement may be at the heart of society’s lack of understanding in regards to crossdressing – you’re supposed to be virile, and thus potent (and useful), yet you’re actively turning away from your societal responsibilities by dressing as a woman. Of course, you can be a paragon of virility and potency AND dress as a woman, but try explaining that one...

However, females can be just as virile as males, since virility means “physical maturity and strength of an adult male or female.” This adjusted definition never used to appear in the tomes, but it’s there now, in the 21st century. There is a term called womanliness, akin to manliness, and it’s all about virility. This means that femininity is GOOD, but effeminacy is BAD – it all makes me dizzy! What if you, as an MtF crossdresser, choose to emulate an aggressive, forceful, strong, potent femininity? Are you still affecting a type of effeminacy? Is any embracement of feminine characteristics to be censured out of hand (and out of mind), simply because we are being naughty (not BAD) boys? BTW, did you know that “virile” can mean “well-dressed?”

Since virility is supposed to denote potency, l wish to play on the word “potent” and turn expectation on its collective ear. Potent can mean effective, and potency is the capacity for development, so aren’t we realizing our latent potential by dressing in women’s clothing? As drab males we have unrealized desires, and our “development” in this case leads us away from the constrictive masculine trappings that enclose us. We can thus achieve our potential as human beings, embrace the effeminacy that attracts us and still remain virile, at least to ourselves. Virility is a desirable human characteristic, or at least that’s what we’ve been TOLD. I wish you well in your ongoing viripotency, if that happens to be your thing...

Getting back to the idea of facial hair being a visual indication of one’s virility, I guess that makes me not virile, since I am always clean-shaven. This means I must be effeminate – HOORAY! Maybe a lack of male body hair, or constant removal of same, is a visual indication of effeminacy. In that case, I’m getting something very meaningful across, but is anyone paying attention?

What do you think about this idea of virility, male or female, or, more specifically, what do you do with your manliness when you crossdress?
:straightface:

[Kathi Lake]

Honestly, I don't feel any less virile or potent when dressed as a woman than when dressed as a man. Sure, it could be that I'm not exactly what one would term 'macho' or anything in my normal daily male life. However, I don't feel that I'm watering down any part of my personality by putting on makeup or a dress. Instead, I think I'm augmenting myself with my dressing.

All that, of course, is how I see myself. The world, however, sees it quite differently. They feel that when a man puts on a dress that he is essentially emasculating himself. Lowering himself. Debasing himself. Sad, really.

Kathi

[docrobbysherry]

I think masculinity and virility r as different rocks and raisins!

For me, I'm MUCH MORE virile seeing Sherry in my mirror, than when fantasizing in drab! LOL!
Of course, I've never thot or worried much about my masculinity. Where as, for the last 15+/- years, issues of my virilty HAVE been a concern!

[GaleWarning]

vir·ile/ˈvirəl/Adjective
1. (of a man) Having strength, energy, and a strong sex drive.
2. Having or characterized by strength and energy.

Freddy, your post doesn't seem (at least to me) to be talking about the word "virility" in the sense I understand it to mean.
Having a beard has absolutely nothing to do with how strong or energetic a bloke is, or how strong his sex drive is!
And if the word "potent" is supposed to denote how fertile one's sperm is, we run into all sorts of problems.
All round the world, the potency of male sperm seems to be on the decline, supposedly because of (un)natural causes such as an increase in the amount of eostrogen in the water, as a result of birth control pills.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Some claim that tucking regularly can lower sperm count, so in a sense yes it can lower virility, if one looks at it from a reproductive point of view.

[Frédérique]

Freddy, your post doesn't seem (at least to me) to be talking about the word "virility" in the sense I understand it to mean.
Having a beard has absolutely nothing to do with how strong or energetic a bloke is, or how strong his sex drive is!
And if the word "potent" is supposed to denote how fertile one's sperm is, we run into all sorts of problems.
All round the world, the potency of male sperm seems to be on the decline, supposedly because of (un)natural causes such as an increase in the amount of eostrogen in the water, as a result of birth control pills.

If the OP didn’t make sense to you, it may be because I was writing it between tornado warnings! :eek:

I was not inferring that a beard signifies virility in an individual – I merely mentioned the quote I heard, since it started me thinking. You COULD discuss that topic, at another time and place, because it (a need to indicate one's level of virility) may explain the current predilection for facial hair. I honestly think that shaving has become an effeminate gesture for males, and retaining, shaping, grooming, or displaying one’s facial hair is hardly a declaration of effeminate intent. I make no connection between virility and hair, no matter where the latter may be, and it was not my intention to discuss the matter...

I was also NOT referring to sexual potency or impotency, but I WAS exploring the other meanings of the word “potent,” and I played upon these to make a point, namely that we, as MtF crossdressers, are achieving a certain potential (or strength) through expression. Also, virility can be seen in many different contexts, regarding both genders, and the definition of “virile” isn’t what it used to be. Personally, I think virility is a façade that hides male insecurity, but, as I stated in the first paragraph of the OP, I do not wish to dump my disgruntlements regarding male behavior on anyone...

Regarding the current impotency of male sperm you mentioned, I wouldn’t know anything about that, so I cannot join a discussion about it. My aim was to make a connection between MtF crossdressing and virility, since they are often fighting for the same space in the same organism, even if you are tacitly unaware of any battle going on under the surface you choose to show to the world. Since virility used to denote manliness, and all MtF crossdressers are male by birth (correct me if I'm wrong), it MAY be an issue worth considering, and it MAY be at the heart of someone’s fear about the need to dress...
:straightface:

[Jorja]

Freddy dear, where do you come up with all these great thought provoking topics? Me thinks you have too much time on your hands. :D I am going to be a week analyzing all of this.

[Alaceann]

I like what Kathi said about augmenting herself with dressing, and if a beard was to be a sing of verility I should be very vereal with my Santa beard.lol...

[GaleWarning]

Glad to learn that the tornados passed you by, Frederique.
All I can say is that I used to be highly sexed, but not so much any more.
Age is catching up on me, perhaps?
Was I virile?
I have two children.
Does that answer your question?
Who knows?

[Frédérique]

The question is NOT “Are you virile?” :waiting:

Since you are a male-to-female crossdresser, you are doing something at odds with the standard of virility that society EXPECTS you to embrace – you can see this message all around you, like a visually repetitive drumbeat, hammering home the need to be strong, masculine, and virile. When you go out in the world as a drab male, you put forth an appearance of virility, according to your age or station. You’re expected to dress a certain way, and thus appear to be strong, trustworthy, active, and perhaps desirable. This may be an unconscious mindset the male takes on, reinforced by routine or experience, so my question IS what happens to this cloak of virility when you dress as a woman? Do you tuck it away, or do you transfer male virility over to a new female virility and express feminine characteristics akin to masculinity? It gets complicated, but, in my case, a certain detachment from virility imbues my crossdressing head-to-toe, all part of the apartness from masculinity I wish to achieve...
:straightface:

My feminine persona is active, convincing, lively, and vibrant (also beautiful and elegant), but it is not lusty, forceful, dynamic or procreative, as “virile” would indicate. For a male crossdresser in drab, there is plenty of constraining going on, since we are anxious to divest our male trappings and slip into something more comfortable. Gutsy is a word associated with virility, and it certainly takes courage to crossdress, but is it newfound feminine strength that propels this courage, or is the omnipresent male vigor being put to good use at last?

[GaleWarning]

God knows!
I'm just me.
Sorry to be so boring and lacking in introspectiveness.

[abbykins]

Great thoughts, Frédérique! I understand what you're saying. I agree with you, too, to my best understanding. I don't have any thoughts to contribute, you went way beyond my own progress on this :)

I can talk about myself...


What do you think about this idea of virility, male or female, or, more specifically, what do you do with your manliness when you crossdress? :straightface:

I thought about this very carefully. My masculinity gets subsumed by my femininity. It's not suppressed, but rather, overwhelmed.

There's a distinction to be made between personal and social virility. In a personal context, virility means 'full of life', or "Having or characterized by strength and energy". In a social context, it gains sexual meaning based on extremes of masculinity and femininity. (Etymologically it meant manly, but the feminine has rightly co-opted the usage.) In this way, anyone full of life is virile, regardless of how they are viewed socially. Socially, virility is relative to what any individual thinks is full of life. Typically that's extremes of masculinity and femininity, but for some people it could be androgyny, or anything.

Effeminacy is a relative term, relative to being masculine. (1 : having feminine qualities untypical of a man : not manly in appearance or manner 2 : marked by an unbecoming delicacy or overrefinement.) For that reason, effeminacy is not an applicable concept when my goal is femininity.

Okay maybe I did have some thoughts :heehee: Thanks Frédérique.

[JamieTG]

In my earlier years I was a masculine looking and acting male that simply enjoyed the feel of nylon lingerie. I had a lot of body hair and several times grew a beard. I looked pretty ridiculous in a babydoll nightie with all that body hair but I still felt masculine. I underdressed all the time but still projected masculinity. Everything started changing about 10 years when I was in my mid forties. My "feel" of masculinity started to lessen and my inner feelings toward femininity started to grow so that now my feminine side is more in control and has to be displayed everyday. Maybe the loss of testosterone the last 10 years is the cause. I'm not sure if this ventured off the original topic but just wanted to share.

[Daphne Renee]

Wow Frédérique .. First of all let me say I read your post and I have a bit of a headache. :) You are obviously much smarter than I am.
I think I do understand you post. I can only tell you that I myself. Have never been very worried about masculinity for the most part. Society does put certain expectations on us. Males are supposed to be strong , dominant, etc.. Women are supposed to be more of the supporting role. Things like that are changing everyday though.
In your definition of virility , I am not less virile when I am dressed.
I think being effeminate has somehow got the association of also being weak. Men are supposed to be strong so any signs of such would also indicate weakness.

[Anne2345]

What do you think about this idea of virility, male or female, or, more specifically, what do you do with your manliness when you crossdress?

I check my manliness at the door, and leave it behind. When I enter the blessed confines and comfort of my personal crossdressing closet, the shackles of masculinity, those shackles that are imposed upon me by society, are released. When dressed, I need not comply with society's expectations of the male within, nor do I. It is a cathartic release, to so dispell and temporarily banish all traces of masculinity within.

In my community, by necessity, all outward appearances suggest I am the stereotypical male. This protection mechanism is so ingrained within my persona, that it is second nature. Clearly, however, I am not the stereotypical male, of which I am quite thankful of. If those around me were to closely scrutinize my outward behavior, they may pick up on certain small signs - perhaps I have too many GG friends, perhaps I compliment clothing a little more than I should, perhaps I tend to engage in certain types of conversation a stereotypical male would otherwise shy away from. But in the otherwise stereotypical, virile persona that I outwardly project in public, these small things are not questioned.

As for consciously distinguishing my actions or thoughts between the masculine and the feminine, I do not engage in such mental awareness of the same. Rather, to some small degree, I act and think in the manner that circumstances allow and require. I am aware that, at the very least, I tend to "mentally crossdress" on a daily basis. Not a day goes by that I am not in tune with, or consciously aware of, in some fashion or another, the femininity within me. But it is not so much that I consciously distinguish between the two, as it is simply who I am, and how I think about and perceive matters.


what happens to this cloak of virility when you dress as a woman? Do you tuck it away, or do you transfer male virility over to a new female virility and express feminine characteristics akin to masculinity?

I believe I neither tuck the cloak of male virility away, nor transfer such virility over to a new female virility. For me, it is simply the shedding of the male virility I am expected by society to portray in public. That which remains is the feminine virility that is otherwise within me. Although I do not see the two as mutually exlusive, to a degree, within the context of those male characteristics that are utilized as a public defense mechanism, they may be mutually exclusive.

Obviously, not all of the masculine characteristics I exhibit in public are, for lack of a better word, a masquerade. Many I enjoy, thrive within, and need. However, I view such masculine characteristics within myself differently than I do those stereotypical males that exhibit the same characteristics. Experience has taught me that I perceive thoughts, emotions, and feelings differently than my stereotypical male counterparts. I may have similar characteristics, and exhibit similar male virility, but it is from a completely different perspective, even if the ends are the same (if that makes any sense . . . :straightface:).

So back to the question, and more importantly, the answer - when I dress, I simply leave it all behind. I am free to be me while en femme, and leave the trappings of society's expectations completely behind, without a second thought, and without worry. Although I crossdress in the closet, the magic that occurs within it is indeed beautiful and powerful. Masculine virility be damned in my closet!

[drushin703]

frederuque:
On an episode of Rupauls drag race, Bebe, who eventually won the challenge for the next drag superstar, was reflecting on how in Africa people
wanted to burn him at the stake for crossdressing or presenting a feminine image.Rupaul said it (cd) was and is thought of as a form of betrayal
to all of masculinity. But are there degress to being masculine? Is masculinity the last great orthodoxy in a free society? I would suggest that I am
no less verile than any other man although the Dana that I morph into on saturday night is far more feminine than any other women.......no betryal
and with no contradiction......dana.