wrongly transitioned?

[Steph.TS]

I remembered people on here cautioned against transitioning too quickly because people who were actually their original gender but transitioning anyway and ended up being miserab. I mentioned this with my therapist and wanted me to ask on here why would someone transition if they weren't a different gender than their body.

If anyone on here has done this, what was the motivation? I'm generally afraid of everything and I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing, but since there is no blood test or anything that'll tell you if you should transition or not I have be careful.

[Melody Moore]

That is why we have the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care, the problem is though there are some doctors
in some countries only treat it like a 'guideline' and not as a 'set of rules' as such. I know several local girls
that I am questioning when it comes to this because it's clear to see that they are not comfortable in their
new gender roles, even after being on Hormone therapy & under treatment for over a couple of years. They
look like guys still, and their posture, the way they stand, walk, talk use their arms is still like any other guy.

I think the biggest give-away would have to be their body language which appears to be naturally more male
like & it looks like they are 'acting' to be female. I think once you really do embrace your true gender identity
then it will be very obvious that you are a female to everyone else as well. I recall one guy actually saying to
me one night "I expected to see a man in a dress, but what I see is a female" He was obviously talking about
my body language & the way I presented myself. I recently had a group voice feminisation session with my local
TS group and one point that our speech therapist brought up was that vocal communication only plays 7% in our
overall communications - the other 93% of our communication is non-verbal & this will affect many aspects of
your life if you have not fully embraced the gender identity you are profess to be.

Being a female isn't hard for me because I allowed my true self to just come through & I embraced who I am.
Everyone I meet now, including all the people I live with sees me as a woman, not a man or a transsexual.

So my PERSONAL belief is that if you are really a female, then it you would think that being a woman should
come naturally to you like it did for me. You don't have to study feminisation or work very hard at it because
we have usually been exposed to it all our life.

I am in favour of seeing people living FULL-TIME in their gender roles for at least 2 years before having gender
reassignment. So this means no going to work or doing any other public or social activity as a male while living
a secret life as a female because you are not settled into your adopted gender role. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Sara Jessica]

I know several local girls that I am questioning when it comes to this because it's clear to see that they are not comfortable in their new gender roles, even after being on Hormone therapy & under treatment for over a couple of years. They look like guys still, and their posture, the way they stand, walk, talk use their arms is still like any other guy. I think the biggest give-away would have to be their body language which appears to be naturally more male like & it looks like they are 'acting' to be female.

Melody, what you are describing is passing privilege when you suggest that some in our community just aren't able to bury the guy well enough for public presentation. This doesn't speak to what is in her heart.

We all have challenges, positives to accentuate and negatives to hopefully be able to improve upon or at least de-emphasize. This thing of ours doesn't pick us based on our having a slight frame, feminine features, mannerisms, etc. Giving an extreme example, one who is built on a 6'9" / 280# frame can be just as trans as one who is well within typical female measurements. Our larger friend may feel "graceful" in her movements but her body may betray her. It doesn't mean she hasn't made the right decision in deciding to live her life as female.

That said, it does seem that it is the responsibility of the individual to understand fully and honestly what is in her heart while being guided by a competent therapist who will not simply punch her ticket because she says she wants to transition. Even with the best of care, an incorrect decision can be made which emphasizes the importance of RLT.

[Melody Moore]

Sara, if it takes longer than 2 years to settle into your adopted gender role, then something is seriously
wrong still. I am not saying the problems can't be addressed, but you are not ready for the final step of GRS.

I am not just talking about 'passing' either, its about how comfortable you feel in your new gender role. And
this is something I am trying to help one of the local girls with. The one I am helping de-transitioned a few
years back after 3 years of hormone therapy, but has been back on hormones for 8 months but suffers from
self-confidence issues. She wouldnt even go out & do her shopping as a female before I got involved. Even
my psychologist who is also this other girl's therapist fully endorses & supports me in the support that I am
giving her. There is a huge difference in how they behave & act. The lady I am helping is genuine where the
others I am not so sure about. If I was their therapist & my boss tried to force to sign their approval for GRS
I would quit my job rather than make a bad mistake that could have very tragic consequences.

[Aprilrain]

My personal pet theory on this one is that very few cisgendered folks transition, of course there are exceptions to every rule but I really think this number is vanishingly small. I think what happens more often is that a transgendered person ends up alienating or being alienated by everyone she knew and loved. They are so involved in the process at the time that they don't notice it so much until they are "finished" ie have had SRS. Then it's like, well now what? Friends and family are gone, maybe they aren't allowed to see their children, the career is gone etc. How could this not be a recipe for major depression and thoughts of regret and suicide? I do totally agree with the REL for this reason because even if you are trans if your quality of life is going to be suicidally shity after transition you may want to reconsider. Another point to consider is that we are always talking about a "spectrum", so what if you fall close to full on transsexual but not quite, yet you go all the way because "that's what all the girls are doing" this could also lead to regret. think about it, now you've got this high maintenance vagina and your having trouble having orgasms, or the gay men you use to like to date aren't interested in you any more etc, etc.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

nope.... LOTS of girls transition, get srs, then for whatever reason choose live how they want...they relieve the gender dysphoria by getting srs and breasts, and they live as either manly women, or feminine men or in between. the only thing that matters is what's in your head...and then you do what you think is right based on what's in your mind...

I think it's a terrible disservice to those girls that for WHATEVER reason can't get to the best case.

I have met very successful people living this life...i am sure some have failed, but lots of passable feminine ts girls fail too....

A woman i know in arizona has long blond hair, talks and walks like a guy, wears neutral clothes...she is very happy...her voice is incredibly manly and she says when she realized she couldn't figure how to improve she said since she was semi retired and didn't like anything but jeans and cowboy boots, why stop wearing them...after srs, she said her outlook on life did a total reversal and she was simply delighted to be done with her srs.so it's girls jeans, boots and her own life...how can one of us say she did something wrong? we can't.

this type of transitioner is more common in older folks and often as sara points out someone that simply has no realistic ability to pass, or someone that is not delusional and thinks they pass .

in my opinion steph in the OP, you are continuing to put up roadblocks in your mind... last i counted there were 14,452,221 reasons to NOT transition...don't go through every one ..you are just torturing yourself..

[Aprilrain]

last i counted there were 14,452,221 reasons to NOT transition..

Hhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm, you might want to redo the math on that one Kaitlyn, I'm pretty sure it's 14,452,221 and 1/3. : ). It's that last 1/3 of a reason that really gets people!

[CatAttack]

Melody: I don't think it is right to judge a person's "transness" by their mannerisms... decades of living as a male can be hard to just shake off. Whether or not someone is happy about their transition and new gender role also isn't an accurate reflection of their "transness".. there are many other factors that may play a role, such as self-confidence, physical appearance, or their expectations of transition.

Steph: I think the warning is more about making a huge life changing decision without carefully thinking it through. It will affect all aspects of your life. Jumping into this without thinking it all the way through can have negative impacts on your life and ruin relationships and friendships you have built. Are you confident that you will be happy as a girl? How do you imagine yourself two years from now if you transition? Can you see yourself happy as an old woman? Can you handle possibly losing some friends and/or family? Do you have a wife/kids [and the implications of this if you do]? If not, do you want to have kids in the future? Do you think that you can pass [realistically]? Is passing something that would be important to you?

But you can't possibly have all the answers. All I am trying to say is that these are some things that one must think about when making the decision to transition. What it really boils down to is: Is transition something you really want to do or not? If you really really do want to, then sometimes you just have to be bold and make the move. I don't know if this helps haha, just my thoughts on this.

[CharleneT]

There are some people who are having personal issues, and find that they think there are TS. Then they transition, and if on the "fast track" there is little time for them to really evaluate whether it is a good idea. Specifically, whether they really want to live in the opposite gender. Once you are in the system, as it were, you'll get a lot of encouragement. For some that is actually not a good idea. It does come to pass that some patients transition, and then realize/decide that they did not really want to live in the opposite gender. BUT now they are stuck on the other side of the fence. I have known a post-op MTF who was this way. She lives a pretty happy life, but also completely regrets transitioning.

Another problem that can crop up is that if you go very fast thru it, sometimes you are not very well adjusted and find living full time to be quite difficult. Especially after SRS, when as Kate would say "you've gotta just live". Developing friendships, dating, finding jobs etc, all become major problems. While most think of the SOC as "hoops" and those who enforce them "gate keepers"'; truly they are pretty well setup and the amounts of time for each step quite realistic - or so I believe. A very fast transition is not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be.

[Katesback]

I have met a number of people that wrongfully transitioned. Some even had SRS. Contrary to what some think it only takes the cash and a few smart responses to the professionals and you have a vagina.

Often the reason these people come to light is because they dont commit 100% of thier efforts to transitioning. The end result is something less than a perfect presentation. Another reason people screw up is they assume that there is a pot of gold after SRS. As I have said transition starts after SRS. That is when reality begins and the training wheels are gone.

I have a girl I know rite now that like so many trans people she does not listen to the wise. She is dead set on getting SRS and she is 68 years old. She needs hearing aids, hair, boobs, facial work, voice work, work on mannerisms, and some other things. She is a train wreck waiting to happen because when she gets that vagina reality will hit and she does not have the money to get the other work done. Hell what does a 68 year old need a vagina for anyways?

Katie

[Kelly DeWinter]

This is a reccomended site:
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/conway.html


This is not my Opinion, but the thoughts from 4 Transgendered gals who had SRS and came to regret it.

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html#Dani



That being said from the same website are postings of gals who sucessfully transitioned.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery1.html

[dawnmarrie1961]

Haste often makes waste. Sometimes we feel like we just want it to be as easy as "poof" it's over with. That's the fantasy.The reality is not so simple.Transition is change and change takes time. It's like buying a car without knowinig how to drive. Sure you can go to driving school to learn. But it's not doing you any good now.Some individuals think that SRS is the answer to all thier prayers. SRS doesn't change who you are. Hormones don't change who you are. The clothes don't change who you are. Those are all asthetic. For outward appearance. Lasting and true change begins with the inside. Not the biology but rather the Psychology. As for the question of "why a person would want to transition if they didn't think they were a differnt gender than their body?" The answer lies in the question (the way I phrased it.) "Think." They mistakenly thought wrong.

[ReineD]

The best advice I've ever been given is, "when in doubt ..... don't". You, better than anyone else, will know internally when it is time for you to go to the next level. If there is any hint of doubt that is causing you to think you might possibly be making a mistake, then it is a good signal that you should just hold off for now. If you are a woman, then you just are and there will be no doubt.

Also, be sure that you have realistic expectations of what it is like to walk through life as a woman vs. a man. In day to day life, we are treated the same whether it is at the grocery store, the bank, the hardware store, restaurants, even in many relationships with people. Your acquaintances will still greet you the same way whether you are a man or a woman. When the transwomen here say that post-op life just becomes ordinary, I take it they mean that they aren't adulated just because they are now women and I can't agree with them more! :)

[Sally24]

I think the problem is expectations. Many trans think that SRS is the magic bullet that will make EVERYTHING better. Hardly! Since no one in day to day life sees your genitals, that should be the very last thing you do. Most everything else is reversible to some degree. As many have said SRS is a one way street. Just make sure you're ready before you start down it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The best advice I've ever been given is, "when in doubt ..... don't". You, better than anyone else, will know internally when it is time for you to go to the next level. If there is any hint of doubt that is causing you to think you might possibly be making a mistake, then it is a good signal that you should just hold off for now. If you are a woman, then you just are and there will be no doubt.

Also, be sure that you have realistic expectations of what it is like to walk through life as a woman vs. a man. In day to day life, we are treated the same whether it is at the grocery store, the bank, the hardware store, restaurants, even in many relationships with people. Your acquaintances will still greet you the same way whether you are a man or a woman. When the transwomen here say that post-op life just becomes ordinary, I take it they mean that they aren't adulated just because they are now women and I can't agree with them more! :)

very true..

although i do think "no doubt" is too high a standard...the lousy situation we are in is that we end up in very high stakes medical/personal/financial gambles around treating something that is destroying our lives...and the doubts can be all mixed up... real fears about financial needs and possible losses in your emotional life are hard to seperate from the benefits for the ts to transtion and get srs..

i've noticed that post srs..dysphoria is GONE GONE GONE...totally and utterly eliminated from my life!... sometimes i wonder what the hell i did... luckily i have some resources and friends, and a supportive family...so all is well...
i wonder if i lost my family and was totally broke if i'd be thinking like the people that say they regret what they did...

maybe a concise way to say it is simply if you want a successful transition, you need to flush your expectations down the drain...you need to address your desperate need's and balance them with the realities of life post transition...and if you don't...you will not be able to enjoy the benefits of transition, but you will stay have to pay all the costs..

[Bree-asaurus]

I was given the advice that don't take the next step in transitioning unless you absolutely have to. I have a friend that has tried to rush a lot of her transition and thankfully has come around to not jump to getting SRS before she's ready.

For me, I've been kind of stuck in the same place for a while... feeling ready to go 24/7, or at least attempt it, but practicing my voice has held me back. For a couple months this has been manageable... I've been fine having to go into guy-mode when I have to go places where I have to talk to people that don't know I'm trans. But now it's getting to the point where I'm able to spend more time as myself, and I get really depressed when I have to go back into guy-mode. It feels like having to present as male is getting worse and worse and pretty soon I'm going to have no choice but to stop doing it... (I don't work in an office or anything, so day-to-day I'm able to be myself because I'm just around friends or family or at home alone)

[Kokoro]

This is probably my biggest fear about transitioning.

I've always found it hard to make decisions - even when ordering food I'm always the one to pick my food last! I just hope that if I follow me gut and keep going when it seems right but stop when it feels wrong or out of place. I like to have confirmation for things before I make a final decision, but when that confirmation has to come from me it's almost like I don't trust myself to make the right decision.

[Melody Moore]

Melody: I don't think it is right to judge a person's "transness" by their mannerisms...
I am entitled to my opinion & to express it here fairly as everyone else does & if you don't
like it, then I suggest that you get over it. Because the fact is body language & mannerisms
do speak volumes of truth about how comfortable or self-confident a trans person really is.

[Frances]

The whole point of the SoC is to maximize the chances of success and minimize the chances of regret. A transition program that follows the SoC is slow and methodical for a reason. As long as things feel right, continuing on the transition path is advisable. Mistakes occur, in my opinion, when steps are omitted. Cross-living means cross-living, not sometimes I am girl, sometimes I am a boy. If a transitioner is stuck in a back and forth mode, they are either not suffering enough to be their true gender, or not ready to go ahead to the next step. Do not rush things, experience what needs to be experienced and you will know the answer. There is no need to project too far into the future.

A woman had a nervous breakdown post-surgery at Dr. Brassard recently. An acquaintance of mine was having surgery the same week. She went berserk and attacked the nurses. It turns out she had not followed the SoC and had basically bought her letters. She thought she would feel like a woman after surgery. I have had surgery and woke up the same person. The good thing is that I was not expecting otherwise.

As far as the cases of regret from Lynn Conway's site are concerned, Renée Richards wrote a second autobiography in which she tackles the issue of regret. She mentions her only true regret was transitioning in the spotlight, not the act of transition itself, and that reports of transition regret were exaggerated.

[ReineD]

A woman had a nervous breakdown post-surgery at Dr. Brassard recently. An acquaintance of mine was having surgery the same week. She went berserk and attacked the nurses. It turns out she had not followed the SoC and had basically bought her letters. She thought she would feel like a woman after surgery.

OMG! How can anyone possibly believe that a body modification will transform their inner sense of who they are?

Sorry for the strong reaction, but I just feel horrible for this person. This story just hit me right between the eyes. :sad:

[Jorja]

There are those that do regret transitioning. There are many reasons for this but the number one thing is because they think that after having the surgeries they will wake up as some completely different person. Sorry folks, it just doesn't happen that way. When you awaken after SRS, you are the same person that you were when you got there. Your just minus a few items you walked in with. The surgeries only bring the body in line with the minds picture of what you think you should look like. For many of us that is very important. For others, they don't mind that the body does not match the picture the mind has. That is the beauty of transition, you can go as far as you feel YOU need to. However, once SRS has been done... your stuck with it.

I wanted to add my thoughts about the SoC which most feel is the law when it comes to transition. For the most part it is. Most of you should thank one of us girls that transitioned back in the 70's, 80's and 90's for these standards. Many of us fought long and hard for them. Now, a transition program that follows the SoC is slow and methodical program. This is to make sure that transition is good for the person involved and to help eliminate regrets later. That being said, we are not all the same. The SoC says you will need two years RLE to qualify for a letter saying you have GID. Not necessarily. For example, if your therapist sees that you are comfortable in your new gender role in 9 months they can pass you on. Others may need every second of the two years. The steps to transition are listed but if it is felt that you meet or exceed the SoC sooner it is alright to move on. That is why they get the big bucks.

[Jay Cee]

... Hell what does a 68 year old need a vagina for anyways?

Wow, just when I thought you couldn't be any get any ruder... well, there you go, getting ruder. :rolleyes:


I am entitled to my opinion & to express it here fairly as everyone else does & if you don't
like it, then I suggest that you get over it.

Just as katty is entitled to her opinion. In this case, her opinion happens to be about your opinion. Such as it is.

[Melody Moore]

It turns out she had not followed the SoC and had basically bought her letters.

Thank you Frances for that - so this person lied. One thing i have learnt throughout life is how to read people through
the unspoken methods of communication. Sometimes people say one thing while meaning something else completely
contradictory of the statements coming out of their mouths & I have caught many people out in their lies this way.
Police, Psychiatrist & Psychologists are some of the people that are very well trained in these types of skills as well.

Some people I have noticed don't like to go down the path of seeing a therapist & working through the issues cautiously,
instead they take their own route of self-medicating & short stepping these processes. As Frances just pointed out here
some people go to lengths of using forged documents because they are either impatient or they are fearful they will
be denied GRS if they take the proper paths. I was born intersexed, but still that makes no difference to how quickly
I can have my gender reassignment surgery. With my gender clinic there are Standards of Care that must be adhered
to. I for one am happy that they have these rules because it helps to ensure there will be less mistakes. I also went
to the trouble of going full-time even before I started on hormones to see how I would feel as a woman in society &
I was one of the very lucky few that knew without any doubt that transitioning was the right thing for me. Since then
I have settled down nicely & everyone sees me as a female. So I believe that most of my transitioning was done before
I started on hormones because the biggest part is the mental transition - you need to be mentally prepared & stable'.

Recently there was an outcry by members of my local TS support group because one girl was pushed through about 6
months ahead of time & was given permission to travel to Thailand for GRS - all because she managed to convince the
staff that she needed to have GRS to avoid being put in a male prison which is very unlikely nowadays because it is widely
recognised & understood TS girls risk being raped & abused in a male prison. Maddison Hall is the perfect example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maddison_Hall) of
a pre-op transsexual who was put in a female prison despite not having GRS.

The staff at my local clinic bent the rules for this girl because she managed to convince them she was going to commit
suicide because she was going to a male prison & would be abused & raped. The others in my local group are not upset
because they feel they should go through faster, they are fearful of what might happen if something goes wrong & she
harms herself because she has a history of self-harm. And we are worried about what impact this might have on our local
gender services & their program which so many of us rely on now for our own support.

The Harry Benjamin Standards or Care are not fool proof, but more mistakes are made because doctors & other people
don't follow these 'guidelines'. Personally I believe that it is negligent & extremely stupid to ignore them when transitioning
is such a huge step that can have extreme & dire consequences that you will have to endure for the rest of your life if a
mistake is made or something is overlooked. The only rule my clinic overlooks is the need to have employment because
they understand that people can be discriminated against, so finding a job can be harder if you are transsexual. If you
have a job already there really is no need to live a double life if you take a few steps to ensure that you are not being
discriminated against & that your employer understands workplace & anti-discrimination laws. In many places there are
now advocacy services to help you work through such issues - I am becoming part of such a program as an advocate.


Just as katty is entitled to her opinion. In this case, her opinion happens to be about your opinion. Such as it is.

And if you don't like our opinions Jay Cee, then may I suggest that you put your big girl panties on
& learn to ignore it. There are people in this world who are more cruel than Kate & I will ever be.
Sometimes unfortunately you have to be a little cruel in order to be kind - We both really do care. :hugs:

[Sharon]

Some crossdressers fantasize being female when they are lost in the throes of their imaginations. They then may confuse their fantasies with reality and jump into making life altering decisions they are ill equipped to handle. Perhaps they also may convince themselves that any troubles they may have in their current lives will be "cured" by becoming something else. This is all educated conjecture based on years of reading posts on the forum and corresponding with countless numbers of members.

Transitioning and surgery are serious changes and if there's the slightest doubt they should be either postponed or avoided. This is why a good therapist is mandatory for most people considering transition. I had no choice but to transition -- I very simply could not continue pretending to be what I wasn't, even though there were many financial and familial reasons to continue standing pat. It was literally a life saving choice for me and there has been no looking back and I have never had a moment's regrets.

[Melody Moore]

So, I'm shutting up now, despite wanting to "discuss" things further. Besides,
it would seem that some folks are always right, and I'd be wasting my breath. ;)

First of all, let's just clear something up, noone is trying to 'suck you into an internet flaming war' Jay Cee
as you put it, but I strongly urge you to engage in a fair debate about the topic if you have something to
share here. "Noone is perfect, least of all me" - I am not saying that my opinion is always right, but with
regards to this topic there are many others here who also seem to share the same point of view as I do.

Now could we all be wrong? Especially those who are a lot further down the road than I personally am?

Transitioning can be like walking through a minefield, one foot out of place & things could go awfully wrong.
And one thing I learnt from my time in the army was to get through such a difficult situation you walk in the
footsteps of others who have been through the ordeal & survived. So am I really so wrong about this?

[Schatten Lupus]

It is no one's place to judge another's view on such issues, on if they "fit the mold" or not. There is no way to get inside their head, and thus no way to ever know with 100% certainty. It's a petty and trivial quarrel found in many circles that often does nothing but breed misjudgments, superiority, low-self esteem, and needless exclusion where there should be inclusion. Reprogramming old habits, thinking, gestures, and other things that we have done countless times without even having to think about doing them to perform them is not an easy task. An easy proof are post-op transsexuals who will still on occasion refer to themselves as their birth sex. The mental aspects of transitioning are indeed the longest and most challenging because you are essentially training yourself to become a new person. One can only begin to imagine the horrors that could be if mental conditioning were an easy task.
But as for wondering, having doubts, and asking questions, it is a good thing to do. The term transgender is a rather broad term, and even for a transsexual the varying levels of transition needed will vary. Some people may be bigendered and not realize it until they have went to any given step in a transition. Some people act on a whim and think it will be an overnight fix. Some people may be acting on a sexual fantasy that they don't realize is just that. Or a number of other reasons. That is why the standards of care was created, to help weed out the potential candidates for transition and those who are best suited for an alternative path. The SoC is not a requirement though, but rather a recommendation.
But since you are questioning this, you are at least off to a good start. But remember that in the end, only you know who you truly are. It may take time to reach a realization or epiphany on your true nature, but when you are certain you will know, and that is truly all that matters.

[CatAttack]

I am entitled to my opinion & to express it here fairly as everyone else does & if you don't
like it, then I suggest that you get over it. Because the fact is body language & mannerisms
do speak volumes of truth about how comfortable or self-confident a trans person really is.

I think you misunderstood. What I was trying to convey was that self-confidence may be a factor on how happy a transitioner might be, but it is not an indication of one's "transness". A cis-gendered drag queen may have perfected their body language and mannerisms and may confidently work the stage, but does that mean they are more trans than the awkward and shy transgirl in the corner?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I suppose I shouldn't allow myself to get sucked into an internet flaming war - it's not good for the psyche. And it can turn a cool thread into a mess. I apologize to you, Steph S., for using your thread to vent my opinions about others opinions.

So, I'm shutting up now, despite wanting to "discuss" things further. Besides, it would seem that some folks are always right, and I'd be wasting my breath. ;)


you see Jay Cee, its totally ok to be cruel because there are other people that are even crueler..don't you get it?

[Jay Cee]

you see Jay Cee, its totally ok to be cruel because there are other people that are even crueler..don't you get it?

LOL!! That's how it works, eh? Those bullies in grade school were doing me a favour by preparing me for the bullies in high school?

[Felicity71]

Sara, if it takes longer than 2 years to settle into your adopted gender role, then something is seriously
wrong still. I am not saying the problems can't be addressed, but you are not ready for the final step of GRS.

I am not just talking about 'passing' either, its about how comfortable you feel in your new gender role. And
this is something I am trying to help one of the local girls with. The one I am helping de-transitioned a few
years back after 3 years of hormone therapy, but has been back on hormones for 8 months but suffers from
self-confidence issues. She wouldnt even go out & do her shopping as a female before I got involved. Even
my psychologist who is also this other girl's therapist fully endorses & supports me in the support that I am
giving her. There is a huge difference in how they behave & act. The lady I am helping is genuine where the
others I am not so sure about. If I was their therapist & my boss tried to force to sign their approval for GRS
I would quit my job rather than make a bad mistake that could have very tragic consequences.

Maybe after SRS you might have more authority on this statement.

[Kelsy]

you see Jay Cee, its totally ok to be cruel because there are other people that are even crueler..don't you get it?

The need to control, belittle, bully and judge others comes ,in many cases, from a deeply insecure person.

[Sara Jessica]

The discussion of SoC, the role of therapy in making such a momentous decision is so beneficial and on-point to what the OP was asking.

But I cannot help but go back to this common theme...


Sara, if it takes longer than 2 years to settle into your adopted gender role, then something is seriously wrong still. I am not saying the problems can't be addressed, but you are not ready for the final step of GRS.

I am not just talking about 'passing' either, its about how comfortable you feel in your new gender role.

As you know Melody, mannerisms feed into one's ability to be accepted in this world as a woman. It was aptly stated above that undoing perhaps decades of male behavior is a daunting task. I guess my point is that some who make the correct decision to transition can certainly do so without ever achieving the pinnacle of body language mastery you describe.


Because the fact is body language & annerisms do speak volumes of truth about how comfortable or self-confident a trans person really is.

No doubt it speaks to comfort or self-confidence but I have a hard time seeing this as a window to the soul as to whether or not one should embark on a path towards transition that you make it out to be.

I have met transitioned women whose body still betray the man they lived as for years. Were they treated appropriately by the psychiatric community or were their cards punched? I could never say. But I could also never be so bold as to question the validity of their path simply by their mannerisms, body language or appearance.

And consider this, one can present with perfection feminine grace and mannerisms and the decision to transition can still be a wrong one. I have been witness to this very thing and the result was tragic.

[noeleena]

Hi.

What makes a woman. being one , what makes a female . being one. when you are born with your brain wired in such a way that you know you are , im not talking about . the i wont to be a woman detail because that for me has never ever had any meaning because i am a woman i can live as one . the one detail that is very importaint to me is i came with out a ....WOMB.....so i could not have my ....OWN.... child .....i m so wired that my feeling;s are as most women in how i react to or i talk to & hear of other woman not being able to have children ,it effects me as a woman.

Because they can not have children because of any number of reason's are they then not female or women. is there a clurse some where that says , sorry your not a female or woman becaues of .......no womb...

as you know im not a transsexual nor will be . yet im a woman of difference. & accepted fully as one . there is no oh your not a woman because you dont have a you know what....
& because im intersex i have things going for me in other ways as well. one was being able to accept who i am.

Okay . there are some who are very uncertin of who they are , some think .....they are trans yet have to have talk's about this for long periods of time & some back track ,

yet how many can say with out any ....doughts at all ....& say ....I AM A WOMAN....that is definate , that is i damm well know . this is not what im hearing from a lot of our people with in the trans community . i wont ask why because i know,

Some of us do know, i knew from age 10 & we need to remember some of us are not so sure of who we are. so need to help one another & that takes time ,

Being a woman is about growing as one its has nothing to do with how you look & i know many will disagree with me on this . so be it , i know face to face who do not look like women & they have a womb ,

so because you dont look like a woman who has that right of saying they me or my friends are not women i have over 40 friends who are intersex & some of those i will defie any one to say they are not women because thier & my features are not in the domain of lookng like female / woman , are not still women & it can & does go the other way as we have here on this forum ,

I belive we need to rethink what we perceve as what we think a woman should look like .

I have presented to the best i can as to my writeing, what im trying so hard to say.if it comes out wrong im sorry.

we need to look far beyond what we determin a female / woman should be.

i dont in my eyes pass as a female or woman. yet my whole being is being picked up by many people i know who tell me they see in me a true woman . how i interact manerisms my fascal expressions & just the overall piture of who i am,

We are all different ..... yes.......


...noeleena...

[Longing2be-Trisha]

I think Noeleena says it very well and passionately. I may not have or look like a woman, but none the less on the inside I am a WOMAN!

Hugs

[Frances]

I think Noeleena says it very well and passionately. I may not have or look like a woman, but none the less on the inside I am a WOMAN!

But the whole point of transition is making visible to the outer world what is inside and communicating the gender felt by the person.

There is no requirement on obvious femininity in the SoC, but there is requirement that the transitioner be capable of functionning in society as the woman she feels to be. Passing or not passing isn't the issue, but rather the ability to handle not passing, if that's the case, or being able to work while looking and carrying oneself like a man in dress. The program I went to required patients/clients to work or go to school while being in it. I know someone who transitioned on her own and had SRS, but is now afraid to leave her appartment to get milk! SRS should be viewed like the cherry on top of the sunday. The social transition is far more important, especially if you look like a linebacker in dress, but are very gender dysphoric.

[Aprilrain]

But the whole point of transition is making visible to the outer world what is inside and communicating the gender felt by the person.

There is no requirement on obvious femininity in the SoC, but there is requirement that the transitioner be capable of functionning in society as the woman she feels to be. Passing or not passing isn't the issue, but rather the ability to handle not passing, if that's the case, or being able to work while looking and carrying oneself like a man in dress. The program I went to required patients/clients to work or go to school while being in it. I know someone who transitioned on her own and had SRS, but is now afraid to leave her appartment to get milk! SRS should be viewed like the cherry on top of the sunday. The social transition is far more important, especially if you look like a linebacker in dress, but are very gender dysphoric.

Absolutely! I wish we could just "like" comments because I have nothing too add to this one.

[Melody Moore]

I think you misunderstood. What I was trying to convey was that self-confidence may be a factor on how happy a transitioner might be, but it is not an indication of one's "transness". A cis-gendered drag queen may have perfected their body language and mannerisms and may confidently work the stage, but does that mean they are more trans than the awkward and shy transgirl in the corner?

No, I don't think I am misunderstanding you at all Katty, but I do think you are misunderstanding me - I am not judging
someone's "transness' for a start. My main points were emphasised even more in my second post which I have quoted for
you below & it specifically refers to if or not someone is ready for GRS/SRS, or if indeed it is even the right thing for them.
I also think comparing transsexuals & intersexuals to drag queens & transvestites is just like comparing onions to apples.


Sara, if it takes longer than 2 years to settle into your adopted gender role, then something is seriously
wrong still. I am not saying the problems can't be addressed, but you are not ready for the final step of GRS.

I am not just talking about 'passing' either, its about how comfortable you feel in your new gender role.
And this is something I am trying to help one of the local girls with. The one I am helping de-transitioned a few
years back after 3 years of hormone therapy, but has been back on hormones for 8 months but suffers from
self-confidence issues. She wouldn't even go out & do her shopping as a female before I got involved. Even
my psychologist who is also this other girl's therapist fully endorses & supports me in the support that I am
giving her. There is a huge difference in how they behave & act. The lady I am helping is genuine where the
others I am not so sure about. If I was their therapist & my boss tried to force to sign their approval for GRS
I would quit my job rather than make a bad mistake that could have very tragic consequences.


you see Jay Cee, its totally ok to be cruel because there are other people that are even crueler..don't you get it?


The need to control, belittle, bully and judge others comes ,in many cases, from a deeply insecure person.
Kelsy & Kaitlyn, noone is trying to be cruel, belittle, bully or judge anyone here. And it certainly isn't my fault that
sometimes other people just don't want to face up to the cold, hard facts of life. So you can stop the flaming now!


Maybe after SRS you might have more authority on this statement.
Allana, I don't have to be post-op at all to have an opinion about such things. When I went full-time I was a
little nervous at first, but it was gone after about 10mins from stepping out the door. Because I came to realise
many years ago that the mental transition is the most important part of transitioning & it's something that took
me years to work through & it is something I did a long time before I even started hormones. I had been doing
my research, working through my issues for 3 years before I even took my first lot of hormones & I believe the
hard work has paid off when I look around this forum at lots of others who are still struggling. Besides that I also
know lots of post-op girls & have been advised on this by the medical professionals who have been supporting me.
Not to mention this is a subject often discussed in my support group. So my opinion is based around the collective
advice of MANY other people who have walked the same path before me & those best qualified to support me in
my own journey. So it's not exactly rocket science to figure out that comfort & self-confidence play a huge part
in successfully transitioning.


And consider this, one can present with perfection feminine grace and mannerisms and the decision
to transition can still be a wrong one. I have been witness to this very thing and the result was tragic.
I have considered it many times Sara & if that was all it took to transition, then I would have done it years ago. What
you & many others here are not getting is that I KNOW' that being mentally prepared, comfortable & confident is the
most important aspect to transitioning. The girl I mentioned in my earlier post I spent time with today & I asked her the
question, specifically because of this forum thread. 'Do you plan on having GRS?' her exact words were was '"I have
thought about it, but it's not something I think a lot about at the moment because I have to feel comfortable &
self-confident enough to function in society". I never gave her any advice, this was something she has worked out
for herself. I told her that she had a very good attitude about the whole thing & it was good that she wasn't going
to be rushing into anything & that she understood the importance of being able to function as a woman in society.

As Frances just pointed out, "but there is requirement that the transitioner be capable of functioning in society as
the woman she feels to be". So how well we pass isn't the key issue here & is not the main point I am trying to make.

But having said that how we present ourselves, how we speak could have a serious impact on us in how we do function
in society. To quote Frances again "Passing or not passing isn't the issue, but rather the ability to handle not passing".
I know that my greatest asset in my own journey is my own self-confidence & this is something I have said a number
of times now on this forum. So it is not something I have just figured out, it has been one of the key things I had to
have before I started my actual transitioning on hormones. We also know that many girls here start on hormones before
getting the skills they need. And if they don't get the self-confidence to be able to go about their every day business
then they are going to have a very difficult time in their transitional journeys & GRS is not going to fix any of this!

[CatAttack]

No, I don't think I am misunderstanding you at all Katty, but I do think you are misunderstanding me - I am not judging
someone's "transness' for a start. My main points were emphasised even more in my second post which I have quoted for
you below & it specifically refers to if or not someone is ready for GRS/SRS, or if indeed it is even the right thing for them.
I also think comparing transsexuals & intersexuals to drag queens & transvestites is just like comparing onions to apples.

Sorry I might have misunderstood you, but this really sounded like you were judging someone's "transness", based on the criteria of mannerisms and confidence:


I know several local girls that I am questioning when it comes to this because it's clear to see that they are not comfortable in their
new gender roles, even after being on Hormone therapy & under treatment for over a couple of years. They look like guys still, and their posture, the way they stand, walk, talk use their arms is still like any other guy.

[...]

So my PERSONAL belief is that if you are really a female, then it you would think that being a woman should come naturally to you like it did for me. You don't have to study feminisation or work very hard at it because we have usually been exposed to it all our life.


There is a huge difference in how they behave & act. The lady I am helping is genuine where the
others I am not so sure about. If I was their therapist & my boss tried to force to sign their approval for GRS
I would quit my job rather than make a bad mistake that could have very tragic consequences.

Genuine? Like genuinely trans right?

And yes, I know that drag queens are completely different from TS people.. That was why I was making the comparison. I was saying that a drag queen can have all of those characteristics that you are talking about [mannerisms, confidence, etc], but that doesn't make them trans or ready for SRS.

[Melody Moore]

I'm saying that a drag queen can have all of those characteristics that you are talking about [mannerisms, confidence, etc], but that doesn't make them trans or ready for SRS.
Draq queens can have those characteristics, but I am yet to meet one, and & know a few of them
because I hosted a drag show here as their MC for a little while last year while before realising that
we were worlds apart. This came about because I was urged to do it by one of the girls in my local
TS group because they knew I was a performer & musician & I am not afraid of being up on stage.

Drag queens overdo everything to the max, make-up, dress, mannerisms etc. They can be a very bad
influence on a transsexual. And I say this because the other TS girl who I just mentioned here works
with them in wardrobe & I have been out in public with her & she draws so much unwanted attention
from the general public because of the 'drag queen' flamboyant type influence.

The big issue for me was that I identified as a female, whereas the drag queens are flamboyant gay
guys who like to be the centre of attention & I felt my involvement with them was a huge mistake.

And I said it was my PERSONAL BELIEF or OPINION that if you are really a female, then you would think
that being a woman should come naturally to you as it did for me. You don't have to study feminisation
or work very hard at it because we have usually been exposed to it all our life. I felt awkward because
of what the drag queens were expecting me to do. Take note of my more conservative dress style in
the photo below for a start, this highlight one of the big differences between transsexuals & drag queens.
But it all comes down to self-confidence & feeling comfortable & with the drag queens, I felt out of place.

The whole experience with the drag show wasn't a complete waste or time though, because it helped
me to reaffirm who I really was & where I stood exactly in the very diverse transgender spectrum.

[Katesback]

I am going say something here. In order to be TS someone MUST want to have SRS. I realize few get it but they at least have to want it. If someone does not want SRS then they sure as hell are not TS! They are something different and surely fall into the trans umbrella but NOT TS.

Girls have vaginas and boys have penises. There is no such thing as a girl that wants to keep her penis.

[Melody Moore]

In order to be TS someone MUST want to have SRS.

Kate, although I personally want GRS, I am going to have to disagree with you on this because our 'Gender'
is not defined by what is between the legs. Because being Transsexual is about a desire to be a member of
the opposite sex. There is no requirement that you need to undergo GRS in order to identify as transsexual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism


Transsexualism is an individual's identification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity) with a gender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender) inconsistent or not culturally associated with their biological sex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_sex). A medical diagnosis can be made if a person experiences discomfort as a result of a desire to be a member of the opposite sex, or if a person experiences impaired functioning or distress as a result of that gender identification.

This is another huge difference between transsexuals & the drag queens & cross-dressers. Transsexuals
want to be a member of the opposite sex, where as drag queens are performers who dress up similar to
a female & CDers dress up to satisfy other needs, but they don't have the same genuine desire to be a
member of the opposite sex as a transsexual does.

[ReineD]

I am going say something here. In order to be TS someone MUST want to have SRS. I realize few get it but they at least have to want it. If someone does not want SRS then they sure as hell are not TS!

Good Lord, Kate. How do you qualify something like that? What about someone who has health or financial issues that prevent them from ever being able to have the surgery and they are simply being realistic? What about the people who have over a lifetime learned to ignore that appendage and it simply is non-existent for them, and they live as the women they are whether or not they are interested in being in a relationship.

[Katesback]

Please re-read my post. I addressed what your post discribes.


Good Lord, Kate. How do you qualify something like that? What about someone who has health or financial issues that prevent them from ever being able to have the surgery and they are simply being realistic? What about the people who have over a lifetime learned to ignore that appendage and it simply is non-existent for them, and they live as the women they are whether or not they are interested in being in a relationship.

[Zenith]

Those are sobering stories about not following SoC Frances...for sure you have to feel it very strongly before surgery...surgery doesn't in itself transform...it confirms...

On a lighter note...regrets?...well when I get an itch in my privates that I can't scratch now...maddening...:doh:

[Jorja]

Those are sobering stories about not following SoC Frances...for sure you have to feel it very strongly before surgery...surgery doesn't in itself transform...it confirms...

On a lighter note...regrets?...well when I get an itch in my privates that I can't scratch now...maddening...:doh:

LOL, omg zenith, that is so funny............ but true

[Kaitlyn Michele]

melody i am not flaming you

just because you don't like people to disagree with your questionable statements does not a flame make...

you are very dogmatic in many of your assertions.. and when you are challenged you hide behind your "right" to an opinion and often berate people for having an opinion of their own.. it's really amazing how predictable you are..

as far as some of the comments of everyone on this thread..i would say

a.) the problem with Kates statement that to be TS you need to want SRS misses the simple fact that despite our protestations, the science around our nature is not fully settled...and MANY psychological problems around our nature get in the way of really knowing and understanding what you want...sometimes people get very caught up in a miserable state that leaves them unable to figure things out...generally speaking i agree with Kate...but it's not as cut/dried as she says...

b.) post mtf srs the need for a vagina goes away...that may sound like a silly statement...but girls need to understand that post surgery your vagina is "just there"...and it loses it's overwhelming meaning...if you are happy at that point, julie makes the spot on point that srs is CONFIRMATION, not a transformation...this is a HUGE point, and as Frances story shows, it can destroy your life if you have bad expectations going in..

and julie...i had my first UTI...and i gotta say it was very scary because i felt like i had to pee for about 250 straight hours...and i was getting 3-4 hours of poor sleep for almost 2 weeks...it finally went away but OMG....

[Kelly DeWinter]

.......... Girls have vaginas and boys have penises. There is no such thing as a girl that wants to keep her penis.

If physical characteristics are the determination of who is a boy or girl, then anyone who transitions has a long way to go since at this time since one cannot change ones chromosome's - XX Female and XY male. It would seem to be from reading so many other threads on the subject that the whole purpose of the cometic surgery of SRS is to make the external gender match as close as possible to the internal gender.

[Jay Cee]

... Girls have vaginas and boys have penises. There is no such thing as a girl that wants to keep her penis.

What an interesting world you must live in, Kate. Somewhat bereft of colour, though, with everything being so black and white.

[Sally24]

Kate, although I personally want GRS, I am going to have to disagree with you on this because our 'Gender'
is not defined by what is between the legs..

Just when you start to make sense, you go and say something like this....


This is another huge difference between transsexuals .....& cross-dressers. Transsexuals
want to be a member of the opposite sex....& CDers dress up to satisfy other needs, but they don't have the same genuine desire to be a
member of the opposite sex as a transsexual does.

There you go again with your negative comments against CD's. You do read the lable at the top of every page? CROSSDRESSER.COM? We are all TG. Crossdressers are not neccesarily driven to have "corrective surgury" like a Transexual is. That does not make us any more or less genuine than you. Most of us here have alot of female in our brain and try to find as much balance as life, and medical technology allows. And if other needs means what I think you mean then the term you are stumbling for is Transvestite.....


And I said it was my PERSONAL BELIEF or OPINION that if you are really a female, then you would think
that being a woman should come naturally to you as it did for me. You don't have to study feminisation
or work very hard at it because we have usually been exposed to it all our life. .

Just because you appear to have had ease with being feminine does not mean everyone else will. From my experience with the many groups in New England, there is really alot of work put in by most to develope their knowledge of the feminine arts. I have met only a handful of girls that just dropped into the new role and had little adjustments needed. Since you are intersex perhaps you were genetically female already? I don't know your medical history.

[Melody Moore]

you are very dogmatic in many of your assertions.. and when you are challenged you hide behind your "right" to
an opinion and often berate people for having an opinion of their own.. it's really amazing how predictable you are..
I am not ever going to deny the fact I can seem dogmatic at times, because I believe at times there is a need to
stand up for what you believe in. And I certainly don't see this as a bad trait like you obviously do. As for being
challenged - as far as I am concerned there has been no real challenge here to any of my statements, because
noone has really opposed or tested my statements as such. I have spent more time clarifying my points of view
here than defending them. And while it was the other post I quoted that was more of a direct flame than your
own post - your comments were certainly pointing in that direction Kaitlyn & you cannot deny it.

As for berating others for having an opinion... I don't deny anyone their right to express their opinion.
My only issue with some people & their opinions is their own hypocrisy which I make no bones about this.

Before trying to tell anyone else how to clean up their mess, learn to clean up your own mess first.

Fortunately for me I am very self-confident & comfortable in who I am now & my only wish is that others
can find the same or similar type of confidence & strength as well if they truly want to successfully transition.
Now if I am so wrong about any of this Kaitlyn, then by all means - YOU show me where & explain it to me OK? ;)

[Frances]

If physical characteristics are the determination of who is a boy or girl, then anyone who transitions has a long way to go since at this time since one cannot change ones chromosome's - XX Female and XY male. It would seem to be from reading so many other threads on the subject that the whole purpose of the cometic surgery of SRS is to make the external gender match as close as possible to the internal gender.

I am pretty sure Kate only mentioned penises and vaginas. I actually kind of agree with her.

[Kelly DeWinter]

I am pretty sure Kate only mentioned penises and vaginas. I actually kind of agree with her.


Yes, but where do you draw the line ?, there are some Transexuals who only want cosmetic surgery, and other want cosmetic surgery to in include breast augmentation. My point is that there are different levels of satisfaction for different people, and that there are somethings that right now you cannot change. The OP made some statements that do not fit with the real life experiences of others here.

[Starling]

Kaitlyn, I haven't had SRS, and barring a miracle will never be able to, but I can speak with some authority on UTI. In case you haven't already tried it, cranberry extract helps prevent e. coli (the most common bacterium implicated in UTI) from infecting the cells in the urinary tract. I have been using it with good results.

On Topic A, I always appreciate your quiet good sense. There are plenty of happily cis-women who look and/or act like a man in a dress (or more likely, in pants). If a happily post-op transsexual woman can feel like the woman she is while retaining her "male" voice and body language, who are we to question her self-concept?

As far as trans-confidence is concerned, it has nothing to do with objective reality. I was in line (as male) at a big-box store and saw a tall, striking woman up ahead of me. She was very pretty and perfectly feminine, with a nice figure. But as she stood at the counter she looked fidgety and uncomfortable in her skin. I wondered if she had a medical problem.

Then I noticed she kept looking around and tugging down on something under her top, and I realized it was a corset.

Although I couldn't be sure, I guessed that she was trans; and I regretted that she wasn't aware of how beautifully she was passing. (I don't think anyone but another trans like me could possibly have known.) I can't help feeling that SRS might work marvels for a lady like that, if she really was TS.

Of course, she might just have had bedbugs.

:) Lallie

[Frances]

Yes, but where do you draw the line?

I draw the line at penises and vaginas. Not everyone can get SRS, but I am suspicious of self-proclamed transsexuals who do not want it.

In Quebec, we have a semi-famous musician who transitioned recently but really wants to keep her penis and made it clear that this was just body modification. She had FFS, a BA and a host of other things, but really wants to keep her package. In my opinion, that is not a transsexual woman. On the other hand, I know trans women who live as women who want to be perceived and accepted as women, but have small breasts and do not cultivate an exaggerated femininity. They have had or want SRS though.

[Katesback]

It is all cool. If someone wants to put toghether a nice package that appears to be female and keep thier penis thats fine. Really it is. I have no problem with that but they sure as hell are not TS.

I realize I get a lot of flack from many of you. Thats totally cool. I mean what do I know I am just a girl.



We need to open a new forum venue for people that think they are TS but want to keep their penises. That would be a really interesting and entartaining forum. I am sure the dating conversations would be non-existant, tons of questions about why they dont fit in, and a lot of activists fighting for the third gender.

Katie

[Sharon]

Some members have gotten a lot of flack around here lately and it almost seems to be an organized attack. Even statements that I read as innocuous are inevitably dissected and criticized. Any member deserves to be challenged over things they write, but this is ridiculous what has been going on.

For example:

Melody's post excerpt:

This is another huge difference between transsexuals .....& cross-dressers. Transsexuals
want to be a member of the opposite sex....& CDers dress up to satisfy other needs, but they don't have the same genuine desire to be a
member of the opposite sex as a transsexual does.

....which inspired this response:


There you go again with your negative comments against CD's. You do read the lable(sic) at the top of every page? CROSSDRESSER.COM(sic)? We are all TG. Crossdressers are not neccesarily driven to have "corrective surgury[sic)" like a Transexual(sic) is. That does not make us any more or less genuine than you. Most of us here have alot(sic) of female in our brain and try to find as much balance as life, and medical technology allows. And if other needs means what I think you mean then the term you are stumbling for is Transvestite.....

Where the heck is the first quote a negative comment? Am I wrong is my understanding that "crossdresser" refers to an emphasis on the peripheral female accouterments -- hence the two parts of the word itself: "cross" and "dresser" as in clothing and such? And where was "genuine" even mentioned? A crossdresser IS genuine, a genuine crossdresser, no negativity even remotely implied. If you feel you have a female mind, then you my dear may simply be a transsexual, again no negativity intended. Being a transsexual doesn't mean you have had surgery, it means you have the brain and heart of the gender other than the one that biology has graced you with. There are any number of reasons why surgery is not an option for a transsexual, but without those reasons surgery would always be a desire.

And for you information, "transvestite" is simply another word for "crossdresser" no matter the implications people may impose on it -- "vestite" is (are you ready for it?) latin for "clothed."

Okay? Does any of this sink in yet? Quit reading what isn't there to be read. Stop interpreting that which is in no need to be interpreted. And -- last but by no means least -- COOL IT! EVERYONE!

Dang..., I promised myself I wouldn't yell.... :sad:

[Melody Moore]

Kate has gotten a lot of flack around here lately and it almost seems to be an organized attack. Even statements
that I read as innocuous are inevitably dissected and criticized. Any member deserves to be challenged over things
they write, but this is ridiculous what has been going on.

Sharon, those first comments were mine & I agree with you, there was nothing negative about this - I was simply stating facts here.


Kate, although I personally want GRS, I am going to have to disagree with you on this because our 'Gender'
is not defined by what is between the legs. Because being Transsexual is about a desire to be a member of
the opposite sex. There is no requirement that you need to undergo GRS in order to identify as transsexual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism

This is another huge difference between transsexuals & the drag queens & cross-dressers. Transsexuals
want to be a member of the opposite sex, where as drag queens are performers who dress up similar to
a female & CDers dress up to satisfy other needs, but they don't have the same genuine desire to be a
member of the opposite sex as a transsexual does.

[Sharon]

I stand corrected.:o

[Katesback]

You cought on to a cronic thing here. People reading a simple direct text and saying it tells a different story.

As I said before it is sad that so many people can get worked up over what someone says on an internet web site. HOW COULD THEY EVER MAKE IT IN THE REAL WORLD?

[Melody Moore]

Kate, I have to seriously wonder about that as well. Spell out the
truth & the facts, backed by links & they still don't want to accept it. :wall:

And just when you had to say that, someone else comes along which I am now really worried about :daydreaming:

Emmy, I am afraid to tell you that you are wrong on both counts. I know
Kate can be dogmatic like me at times, but I certainly don't see her as a troll.


I stand corrected.:o
It wasn't your fault for the confusion because Sally left off the poster information from my quote. :hugs:

[Steph.TS]

I feel I should explain a I assume the worst in all situations, I fully expect that I will be happier as a woman, and am willing to make sacrifices to achieve that goal if I can, I plan on following the SoC and am in therapy right now, haven't touched hormones yet but it's something I look forward to one day. My therapist think I'm not accepting myself and I thnk she may be right, I'm too afraid of society, family, friends, coworkers etc... if I come out what's going to happen, and I'm going to go through those links that were posted a while back, I want to do everything I can to avoid a back reaction to SRS/transitioning, and I don't want to be stuck in the middle if I go for it I'm going all out. I just need to learn more and accept myself and grow a backbone.

kokoro said something that I fully agree with she said that when the answer has to come from myself I don't trust it, like I'm not a good judge of anything I wish I could just stand up and yell I'm a woman in this body, tonight I was at a large mall and saw many makeup stores and I so badly wanted to go in get some advice from the SA's but I wasn't up for it, and a big part of me was just disappointed. I really look up to you gurls that are out or have already transitioned, you know where you're are and aren't afraid of it.

[Katesback]

Steph:

Let me say one thing. Your story is no different than any other ts. REALLY.

There are countless people that have gone before you and survived. If that is not enough evidence that you will be able to make it then thats ok.

[Melody Moore]

I feel I should explain a I assume the worst in all situations, I fully expect that I will be happier as a woman, and am willing to make sacrifices to achieve that goal if I can, I plan on following the SoC and am in therapy right now, haven't touched hormones yet but it's something I look forward to one day. My therapist think I'm not accepting myself and I thnk she may be right, I'm too afraid of society, family, friends, coworkers etc... if I come out what's going to happen, and I'm going to go through those links that were posted a while back, I want to do everything I can to avoid a back reaction to SRS/transitioning, and I don't want to be stuck in the middle if I go for it I'm going all out. I just need to learn more and accept myself and grow a backbone.

First of all you know who you are BETTER than anyone else - but self-doubt is normal in this type of situation
because of the enormous hurdles we need to overcome in order to successfully transition. I realised that the
demons we face as transsexuals are only those we created for ourselves. Like you I was also worried about
what other people were going to think and transitioning is on of those things where you win some & lose some.
But at the end of the day I think you will be most happiest like many others here once you become true to yourself.

The only other person that would know you so well would be your therapist & I have to agree with her after you
explained that you have trouble trusting yourself & your decisions. At the end of the day I have more friends than
I ever did, and these are people who really do accept me as the person I truly am. The freedom & happiness I now
feel is something I had never known before I started my transitioning. There are no more secrets & nothing to feel
guilty about. Those that try to make fun of us, fear us because don't understand us, so they don't know how to
deal with it any other way. It's up to people like us to educate them so they have no reason to really fear us. My
belief is that if you are the best person you can be, then there is no reason for others to ever put you down for
being so true to yourself & it's also there you will find true peace within yourself. So maybe it is time to put those
big girl panties on and go the next step. Just being here & talking to us & talking to your therapist was one huge
step as it is - so maybe it is time to move on. And always remember there is a whole family here to support you.

:hugs:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

melody i refer you to message #18.. (which was your post)...

this was the beginning of the descent of this thread...

your assertion that "transness" and "female mannerisms" are somehow linked is reprehensible ..

[Melody Moore]

your assertion that "transness" and "female mannerisms" are somehow linked is reprehensible ..

For pete's sake Kaitlyn you are really twisting this way out of context.

Read it carefully I am not suggesting anything like you are inferring. I said... Because the fact is body language
& mannerisms do speak volumes of truth about how comfortable or self-confident a 'trans' person really is.
I am not arguing the fact that they are not transgendered. But since you bring up this point, then it could be
questionable if indeed they are really transsexual, because they might not really identify in a gender opposite
to their birth sex.

And the reason I say this Kaitlyn is because as far as I am aware of you cannot even get approved for GRS/SRS
if you don't identify full-time in your chosen gender. With my gender clinic here in Australia, they will NOT even
consider that you have started your RLE unless you have legally changed your name. When I changed my name
& showed my new birth certificate to my pyschologist & doctors & proved I was now living full-time as a female
they started the date for my RLE & also issued me with my Gender Identity Certificate which was used to change
my name & gender all my other legal documentation, drivers licence, bank accounts, Medicare, Centrelink etc.

And there is no denying that this is proper legal affirmation that I am indeed a 'transsexual female' who is
under treatment to transition. They won't issue this document if you are still living a double life as a male
through the week & as a female on the weekends because you don't identify fulltime in your chosen gender.

There are girls in my local TS group that are still living a double life & until they do go full-time & change
their name, then they cannot legally claim to be female despite how comfortable or uncomfortable they
might be or how good their female mannerisms are.

Emmy, I don't know your story since you have not told us anything about yourself which is usually customary
here. But I have to also agree with what Frances just said, in that there is a lot of collective experience here
on this forum. What you need to also realise is that there are people here who are very helpful despite the fact
that at times, some of us might sound a little bit harsh at times because we tell people what they need to hear,
not what they want to hear.

I don't know you or how much you know, but transitioning is a very difficult road to take in life & there are going
to be lots of things thrown at you & you have to be prepared to deal with that. Not everyone you know, family,
friends etc will be supportive of your decision to transition. This journey has lots of hurdles & hoops to get over
& through and it's not for those that are not properly prepared. But there are people here that will care & be more
supportive than you can find anywhere else & they can share their experiences so you can evaluate the different
alternatives you might find to helping deal with an issues you might face. So don't come here knocking those you
are seeking support from - because it's really no way to getting off on the right foot.

:hugs:

[Sharon]

People really need to learn how to send private messages to one another when they wish to bicker back and forth. Seriously, how many threads get sidetracked and ruined because a few members insist on not only saying their piece and sharing their opinions, but they also feel a need to criticize (and re-criticize ad infinitum) other members who may disagree with them?

I'm really getting tired of closing threads because I'm not here to be a dang schoolmarm. I'm here to read, relax, learn something, enjoy the thoughts of other people....

Oh! And if anyone else wishes to print what I consider to be private communication, then they WILL be removed.:Angry3: