another controversial attempt at tackling the label

[Inna]

I hope you read this with an open mind, I have been at this for past 4 years and slowly developed this view of transgender condition and the evil but necessary labeling of sub conditions. I know, I know, we are not labels, but I have a need to separate the different aspects of this vast family of people involved in the struggle and joy of being transgender and perhaps, I honestly hope, this may help some to gain more clear understanding of their own life. I reserve the right to be wrong about everything but something tells me I am Right!

Tell me what do you think?


Stage 1
Fetish
Person is experiencing sexual charge from an object (usually undergarment) of the feminine design and character. Wearer is visualizing him self as a feminine object of desire through fixating on worn garments. When garments not present, worn or imagined, personal identity of this person resumes male status. Also typically following orgasm, an immediate return to male status is imminent. This stage is specifically of only sexual nature.

Stage 2
Crossdressing fetish;
Wearing of clothing in combination or without, undergarments, to assimilate into and project an inner satisfaction of feminine character. Typically, person is dressed for visual affirmation and reflection of feminine character within.
All senses are involved, from touch and tactile stimuli, through feeling of soft or tight fitting clothing to visualizing a complete feminine being. This experience will be sexually charged and in combination or an extension of the first stage of fetishism.

Stege 3
Crossdressing;
Same as above but senses involved go beyond mere sexual and dwell well within gender identity which need an affirmation through visual stimuli. Person feels and assimilates the assumed feeling from within of being truly feminine in nature weather part, half/half or entire self. This stage in non sexual and wearing clothing of an opposite sex gives rise to feeling of completeness and true. Person at this stage of transgender condition has a desire to fulfill the transformation but the circumstances of life may interfere in such decision. Many will deny this aspect consciously from fear of unknown but subconsciously given freewill and smooth transition would not hesitate to start.

Stage 4
Transsexual;
Wearing of garments becomes secondary, now the desire of change focuses on another layer of presentation and that is skin and body. Mere dressing becomes more of a camouflage and the desire to become true in nature to the feeling of femininity within and feeling of completeness needs partial or total assimilation of body sexual characteristics.
Now the feeling of sexual charge is not localized on clothing at all, in fact visual stimuli helps but does not complete the feeling of femininity within. The change of body characteristic is necessary for feeling of completeness.

All these stages are a progression of transgender road map. For some it may start at stage 4 and for some it may never go beyond stage 1, but through my own experiences the road map seems true and logical.


OK, as I posted further down here, after reading your conclusions I have REVISED my previously flawed speculation with the concrete findings of the science, and here they are:

here is my revised version of my initial post:

Stage 1: :evilbegon :facepalm: :spank:

Stage 2: :strugglin :idontknow: :chained:

Stage 3: :cute: :belly: :fairy3:


Stage 4: :cp:

Stage 5: :bday2:

Stage 6: :doll:

[Karren H]

Well you got one thing right..... Labels are evil, no mater who makes them up... Imho..

[JulieK1980]

Stage 5: None of the above.

[Frédérique]

Crossdressing fetish;
Wearing of clothing in combination or without, undergarments, to assimilate into and project an inner satisfaction of feminine character. Typically, person is dressed for visual affirmation and reflection of feminine character within.
All senses are involved, from touch and tactile stimuli, through feeling of soft or tight fitting clothing to visualizing a complete feminine being. This experience will be sexually charged and in combination or an extension of the first stage of fetishism.

Close, but you’re off base when you say the experience WILL be sexually charged – you’re making an assumption based on your insistence about a fetishistic aspect you strongly believe MUST exist. I’m living proof that the wearing of snug feminine garments, replete with a plethora of tactile stimuli or other sentient pleasures, can be accomplished without a sexual connection, overt or otherwise. Oh, I worship my feminine clothes, to be sure, but they are not my personal conduit for sexual release…

Projecting "an inner satisfaction of feminine character” is more like it, but it may be more accurate to say that one projects an expression of gender incorporation by wearing the appropriate “uniform” for such a blessed event – there isn’t much to choose from, in terms of clothing, so the feminine clothes are convenient and somewhat inevitable. Satisfaction is guaranteed, but sexual satisfaction is not the aim for me – aiming at something is purely a masculine activity...
:straightface:

[Kaz]

I have several problems with this. Firstly any attempt at a unifying model will be flawed by definition - this is a very heterogenous group, so categorisation, whilst helpful in generating debate, will always leave people outside the boxes. But there is another problem in that you see this as a progression... My experience and reading everything I have as part of this community would suggest that there are many different paths and desired outcomes... Having said that, I can relate to your stages very well on a personal level. I have, however no desire to transition. If I could zip between male and female that would be brilliant, but I have no desire to live as a 100% CD... I would also not desctribe my early mumblings as "fetish"... it was more experimentation and exploration. Yes there was always a "sexual/sensual" element after puberty, but this I think was tangential. It was not the main reason for doing it. I did it because I was drawn to it initially and then it just felt right?

[kathie225]

To say this topic is controversial is total understatement. Crossdressers are like finger prints. We all have finger prints, however, the whorls formed by the ridges of the prints are unique to the individual. So are the experiences and events that lead up to our becoming crossdressers unique to each of us. We are crossdressers. To dicotomize that category further begins to exclude people from the population. Why we are as we are is for each of us to answer for ourselves, i.e., if you really must know and can't enjoy the trip without knowing. I say have a beer or glass of wine, kick back and enjoy.

[DeeInGeorgia]

No!

Wearer visualizing self as feminine image of desire- Definitely not at age 6. Nor at 9 when my sister, next door neighbor girl and I dressed up as ballarinas and went and showed my mother. Nor at 11 when I took a year of ballet. At 12 I kept hoping I would grow breasts. At 14, it was more what I hoped my future girl friend would be.

Fetish for sexual gratification came insomewhere in early teens, but was not a major part.

[Cynthia Anne]

Stage LEFT Just what I'm going to do so I don't get involve in another atemp to tack labels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[docrobbysherry]

Stage 1. We r born.:thumbsup:

Stage 2. With luck, we grow up.:)

Stage 3. With even more luck, we grow old.:straightface:

Stage 4. We die!:sad:

As u say, there R always a few exceptions! Some folks rush to Stage 4 from Stage 1, or 2!

[Elsa Larson]

As much as I hate being labeled, I agree that descriptive labels would be handy.

Imagine you have come out to a person in your life as a "crossdresser" and that person has done a search for "crossdresser" on Flickr.
The first page of the 224,198 results I just got includes:
> attractive, apparently female persons
> people dressed like sex workers
> people dressed like drag queens
> hairy men wearing lingerie and masturbating

ALL have a legitimate claim to the label "crossdresser". But to the public at large, we are all lumped together.

[AllieSF]

Whew! I guess I really lucked out and do not fit any of those hated lables. I enjoy my male self and dressing up and presenting as a female. I do not get sexual satisfaction with the dressing itself. I do not want to be a woman, though I do enjoy the dressing and acting like one. It is like a constant costume party where I always dress the same theme with different styles and outfits. My "turn on" comes with interacting with the people I meet while dressed. The conversations, jokes, laughs and serious conversations more than make my time out dressed more than well worth it. The garments and accessories are very important to me as I work to perfect my look, styles and presentations for my audiences. I do not feel, see or want to have two different genders and identities. I am me and I love myself dearly.

[Vickie_CDTV]

There is already the Watson Gender Identity Scale which is virtually identical, which has 6 levels from cis to high intensity TS
http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/watson.html

and the Harry Benjamin scale (which I think is more accurate)
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Benjamin_scale

[Joanne f]

How can it be a road map that is true and logical if some will start at #1 and go no further and some will start at #4 without going through 1,2, and 3, i am sorry to say but this is the worst explanation of the way things work i have seen so far .:D

[joanna4]

I would like to say 1 and 2 FORSURE and half of #3 but not #4

[Pythos]

Label E is my stance. That is "The ever present want of clothing styles and choices to be equal among the genders, no matter the sex of that person." I personally do not want to be a woman. I have no desire for a sex change. I am who I am, and want the freedom that is held from me and others due to hate, ignorance, bigotry and sexism.

[Inna]

There is already the Watson Gender Identity Scale which is virtually identical, which has 6 levels from cis to high intensity TS
http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/watson.html

and the Harry Benjamin scale (which I think is more accurate)
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Benjamin_scale

thanks Vickie, after all I am #5 Benjamin baby on my way to #6
As I posted this will be controversial, I suppose it will always remain controversial just as theory of everything in astrophysics does elude our understanding, and yes I am comparing both as equally important , WOW ain't that controversial

[Sara Jessica]

That is just way too cute!!!

(edit - your revised version, Alexia. Seems I'm not allowed to quote your little emoticon chain)

[juno]

We need to think in terms of adjectives rather than labels. Many descriptions are useful, but not when you try to make them into labels or specific groups.

For example "tall" is a perfectly valid adjective, and nobody is bother by the act that it is totally ambiguous. Someone who is tall can still be a short basketball player. The term is useful, but trying to classify people as short, medium or tall is problematic both because there is no strict cutoff, and because it is only one aspect of thousands that describe that person.

It is also context-dependent. I might be able to classify myself as transsexual among typical "straight" crossdressers (I am more female than male on the inside), but I would just call myself a crossdresser among transsexuals (because I only dress female part time).

Secondly, I think the idea that crossdressing starts out as a fetish is flawed. It starts as a fetish for many people because they are young and full of hormones. Eroticism permeates your thoughts. Cross-dressing feels like a fetish because you are young and horny. Consider the sexual preference for females. Nobody describes it as starting out as just a fetish. Of course, you could say that all sexual preferences are a fetish. Of course, some people retain it as a fetish as an adult. At least for some people, that may be more a result of being secretive instead of accepting their desire as "normal".

Lastly, this whole categorization thing is a problem in many areas. People are often categorized into ethnic groups like Caucasian or African-American, but what do people do when they are somewhere in the middle? What percentage of African genes do you need to be African American? The Unites States is well-know for being a "melting pot" of mixing ethnic groups, but we still have these categories on many documents. In some ways, ethnic classification is stupid because it is so ambiguous. However, there are many cultural differences and racism still exists, so the differences are real. Also, they are smart enough to include some "Other" or "No Comment" options and don't force you to pick one, as is done with male/female or LGBTIQS classification.

[Fab Karen]

That may be the progression of YOUR life, but in general, no, that doesn't fit the reality of many of us.

[Vickie_CDTV]

For example "tall" is a perfectly valid adjective, and nobody is bother by the act that it is totally ambiguous. Someone who is tall can still be a short basketball player. The term is useful, but trying to classify people as short, medium or tall is problematic both because there is no strict cutoff, and because it is only one aspect of thousands that describe that person.

Tall is a vague term, but one can describe height using an objective, empirical scale. Having something similar would be very useful for those who need to study and describe transgender behavior (spoken like an engineer, I know.)

[Rianna Humble]

I hope you read this with an open mind, I have been at this for past 4 years and slowly developed this view of transgender condition and the evil but necessary labeling of sub conditions. I know, I know, we are not labels, but I have a need to separate the different aspects of this vast family of people involved in the struggle and joy of being transgender and perhaps, I honestly hope, this may help some to gain more clear understanding of their own life. I reserve the right to be wrong about everything but something tells me I am Right!

Tell me what do you think?


Stage 1

Stage 2

Stege 3

Stage 4

All these stages are a progression of transgender road map. For some it may start at stage 4 and for some it may never go beyond stage 1, but through my own experiences the road map seems true and logical.


I think your "stages" are a fairly reasonable description of some parts of the transgender community, but I cannot agree with the premise that you "progress" towards being transsexual. All the evidence that I have seen suggests that TS's are not made but born. True, many of us try to suppress the knowledge of who we are and some of us may try to portray ourselves as one of your types of cross-dresser, but the reality is that we are TS even when we try to pretend to ourselves that we are not.

Admittedly, you have tried to cater for that by saying that some may start at "stage 4" and others may not progress beyond "stage 1", but where we differ is in the idea that you can evolve from being a non-TS cross-dresser to being TS.

I am not sure where you fit members such as SissyStephanie who insist that they have never been anything other than a man wearing female clothing because they like the style and comfort, or those for whom there has never been a sexual element.

My other concern with this being projected as a progression from A to D is that some could use this idea to treat those at a different "stage" as some kind of second class citizen.

The fact that I am transxexual does not make me any better or any less good than any other member of crossdressers.com

[Loni]

well i am not a bottle so i have no need for a label.

i just want to be treated as i appear. just treating one with kindness, or just O what would the word be were you are just treated and not punished or looked down on. or held in a "special" kind of way.
just letting one live there life and being my self, as i am spending more and more time as loni (i have very little "free" time as it is). work gets in the way of having a life, and must be the drab male self to earn a pay check.

.

[Inna]

I think your "stages" are a fairly reasonable description of some parts of the transgender community, but I cannot agree with the premise that you "progress" towards being transsexual. All the evidence that I have seen suggests that TS's are not made but born. True, many of us try to suppress the knowledge of who we are and some of us may try to portray ourselves as one of your types of cross-dresser, but the reality is that we are TS even when we try to pretend to ourselves that we are not.

Admittedly, you have tried to cater for that by saying that some may start at "stage 4" and others may not progress beyond "stage 1", but where we differ is in the idea that you can evolve from being a non-TS cross-dresser to being TS.

I am not sure where you fit members such as SissyStephanie who insist that they have never been anything other than a man wearing female clothing because they like the style and comfort, or those for whom there has never been a sexual element.

My other concern with this being projected as a progression from A to D is that some could use this idea to treat those at a different "stage" as some kind of second class citizen.

The fact that I am transxexual does not make me any better or any less good than any other member of crossdressers.com

Personally I truly hope that our nature shall be understood as perfectly normal variation of gender flux within a natural process of evolution. Such evolution throws a dice hence we end up with one of this and one of that.

My thinking that this is more of a progression then a list of separate tendencies comes from observing others as well as me, and given time, seeing tendencies of progression. It isn't a learned progression, nor truly a progression at all but further stages of the same. By being transgender, we are born with brain function which provides us with the alternate view of the world, a feminine world. As nature would have it, even though we are born with female brain the variation of femaleness within it differs greatly because of a natural and factual process seen every where around us. More or less feminine females are everywhere, it is just a natural diversity.

Our need to express femaleness is paramount, but the level in which we project it is individually personal. It may start with fetishistic yet simple panties under your jeans, it may manifest it self so strongly in a 7 year old that she wants nothing else but be a girl she is, right now! The realm of possibility is as vast as are transgender.

Progression happens when slow deliberate want drives us to uncover yet another layer of our selves, the unconscious process hides our tendencies to protect our conscious ego and allows us to function well within programmed ways of the society. It is mostly the pressure of this society that put a stopper on our immediate embrace of transgenderism. Hypothetically, given the full freedom and no consequences in discovering who we really are, most of us would venture within one minute outside our doors fully dressed and feeling as though we belong.

Not everyone would go into body modification, in fact I tend to think that the process which stifles and halts our ability to feel whole just the way we are may be a culprit. It may be possible that if we were given freedom to discover all about our selves at the young age and not suppress our feminine feelings, we would be way more comfortable with our selves and perhaps some would not go as far as FFS or SRS because we would be loved, accepted and feeling whole just the way we are.

Yet again, this is my observation, feel free to tear into it and point any false or misleading direction.
I love this process of discovery and need to venture further to understand who I am and what the heck am I made of ( of course I already know it is all pixie dust :)

[NicoleScott]

Not to get into definition discussions (again), but we're not all "transgendered", that is, having a feminine identity rather than using the word as an umbrella term for any kind of gender-crossing behavior. Dressing for pleasure is not a stage on the way to transition. It just is what it is. Wives, like mine, that accept my dressing for pleasure, might be alarmed to think that it doesn't end there. But in my case and others, it starts and ends there.
I also don't think that a transsexual starts out anywhere but at transsexual. That's just based on what I've read, not personal experience. Want personal experience? See what Rianna has to say about it (#21).


Lastly, this whole categorization thing is a problem in many areas. People are often categorized into ethnic groups like Caucasian or African-American, but what do people do when they are somewhere in the middle? What percentage of African genes do you need to be African American? The Unites States is well-know for being a "melting pot" of mixing ethnic groups, but we still have these categories on many documents. In some ways, ethnic classification is stupid because it is so ambiguous. However, there are many cultural differences and racism still exists, so the differences are real. Also, they are smart enough to include some "Other" or "No Comment" options and don't force you to pick one, as is done with male/female or LGBTIQS classification.

Shortly after my child was born, I had to answer some questions to complete some government form. Race? Well, I said, I am Caucasian and my wife is Asian. So, the government worker asked, what is your child? Half Caucasian and half Asian, I responded. "Pick one!", she said. I guess that's still how some people think about sex and gender, too.

By the way, if people want to be called African-American, that's fine. But it's a term that's based on geography and doesn't describe or define race. If a black native Nigerian moved to the U.S., he would be African-American. His twin brother moves to London, what is he? I wonder if Australian aboriginies get ticked when called African-American? Just seems like the wrong term to me.

[Pythos]

I wonder if Australian aboriginies get ticked when called African-American? Just seems like the wrong term to me.

They do, I have first hand knowledge. It now reinforces my lack of use of race terms when describing someone unless I absolutely have to.

[Rianna Humble]

My thinking that this is more of a progression then a list of separate tendencies comes from observing others as well as me, and given time, seeing tendencies of progression. It isn't a learned progression, nor truly a progression at all but further stages of the same.
...
Progression happens when slow deliberate want drives us to uncover yet another layer of our selves, the unconscious process hides our tendencies to protect our conscious ego and allows us to function well within programmed ways of the society.

We must move in different circles, I have yet to meet a TS who did not know at a very early age that their body did not match their gender. Some of us have tried desperately for numerous years to suppress this knowledge and have therefore (wrongly) self-identified as non-TS cross-dresser, but in my experience eventually we can all identify signs from early childhood. In my own case, I fought the knowledge for roughly 47 years, but the Gender Dysphoria was present for the whole of that time.

I do not understand why someone who as a child cried themself to sleep every night wishing that she could wake up with the right body would not eventually want to "go as far" as SRS to use your term. I was loved for who I am, I just didn't know that I could talk to my parents about what was wrong at a time when virtually no-one had heard of transsexuals and anyway SRS certainly wasn't available unless you were rich.

To the best of my understanding a TS is born TS and does not progress from fetishist through cross-dresser to eventually become TS.

I am not trying to deny your experience and woul dbe interested to hear from some of the TS you have met who were not born that way, but developped from being a male cross-dresser to being a woman in a man's body.

My own experience might be covered by your statement about some people starting at stage 4, because there has never been anything remotely sexual about my Gender Dysphoria, but it has stopped me from assuming the role of a husband because I could not conceive how I, a woman, could be someone's husband with all that that entails.

[Sue101]

Alexia

I think you have done a fair job of describing several states that many crossdressers would identify with. I also agree that there is a clear case of progression in the behavior, the more you think about it, the more you enact it, the more you become it. There is a strange amount of self prophecy about it.

I think you missed something important though. Stage 1 is the trigger point which is gender dysphoria. Whether that is gender identity in transsexuals, or gender confusion in transgenderists or, in most cases of crossdressers, feelings of inadequacy about male roles and responsibuilities. That triggers the interest in female clothes as a gateway to the need or fantasy of turning ourselves in females. Most crossdresser's triggers occur years before puberty during the tranistion from innocent young children into prototype gendered adults.

I want to highlight this point from Juno about crossdressing being described as a fetish. It is not!!! We need to stop accepting this wrong label. A fetish is when you direct your sexual attention onto an object. Crossdressers may love their clothes but the sexual drive is focussed on an image of ourselves as a woman whether in our heads or in the mirror. It is just directing our sexual drive onto an imaginary woman rather than a real one. How we relate to women will alter how that imaginary image will develop.

[Kate Lynn]

I ignore labels,when someone puts a labe on you,thats as bad as," bearing false witness",and "judging",one is a commandment,the other is a teaching by the son.

Don't let labels get to ya.

[Vickie_CDTV]

The problem with the word "stages" is that it implies an inevitable progress from one to the other. As NicoleScott said, one can always be a pleasure dresser and never take it further. "Type" or "Degrees" might be more accurate. (Even "degrees" might be problematic, since it assumes TV and TSism are on the same linear continuum.)

It is also important to remember, for every FT TS there are many, many (I have read anywhere from 1:100 - 1:1000) men who enjoy some form of occasional crossdressing as a fetish (and they can't all be inevitable TSs.)

[Inna]

Alexia
I want to highlight this point from Juno about crossdressing being described as a fetish. It is not!!! We need to stop accepting this wrong label. A fetish is when you direct your sexual attention onto an object. Crossdressers may love their clothes but the sexual drive is focussed on an image of ourselves as a woman whether in our heads or in the mirror. It is just directing our sexual drive onto an imaginary woman rather than a real one. How we relate to women will alter how that imaginary image will develop.

Hence I describe one set as Fetishistic crossdressing and other NON fetishistic.



Originally posted by: Rianna Humble
We must move in different circles, I have yet to meet a TS who did not know at a very early age that their body did not match their gender. Some of us have tried desperately for numerous years to suppress this knowledge and have therefore (wrongly) self-identified as non-TS cross-dresser, but in my experience eventually we can all identify signs from early childhood. In my own case, I fought the knowledge for roughly 47 years, but the Gender Dysphoria was present for the whole of that time.

I identyfy with what you are describing, I am a victim of Dysphoria from age of 7. I too looked at how I differed from girls and wanted this difference to go away. We do not move in different circles, yet I had to suppress this pain because of fear, lack of understanding and need to perform as society and life around me demanded. There was however a sexual tone to dressing at later stages of my puberty. I think when I started being aware of sexuality I also wanted to express it in the feminine way, but had to hide it deep in the new imaginary closet we are so familiar with. Fetish surrounded feeling of guilt, wrongness about it and remorse I felt growing up in hyper catholic society. I never lost feeling of being a woman, I always felt it, but the "dirty" feeling that surrounded what I was doing made for me to describe it as fetish, which really it wasn't but mere feeling of femininity.

[Sue101]

Alexia

I am saying that crossdressing is never a fetish period. A person with a clothes fetish has different behavior from a crossdresser. The motivation for using clothes is not the same. A shoe fetsisher for example collects shoes, he would display them and stare at them, cuddle them, kiss them , smell them, lick them....you get the point. Also a fetisher usually requests his partner to wear the articles in question during sex. A crosdresser loves clothes as clothes, in particular the gender attribute those clothes have which he uses on himself to alter his own gender image.

[NicoleScott]

Sue (#27 and #31), I agree with your disctinction between one with a fetish and a crossdresser. But I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I can remember at around age 4 or 5 being attracted to and excited by certain things (high heels, lipstick). Over the years, I began to wear high heels and put on lipstick in private when I got the chance. Yes, as you said, I was excited by looking at and touching them, and of course, when I put them on. I began to collect articles of clothing in my early teen years and use progressively more makeup. I was making up and dressing completely in my twenties, still privately. I loved making up, and loved dressing up, and did it to fully transform my appearance as often as possible. Dressing up ALMOST always included and focused on those items for which I have a fetish. I say almost because a few times I went out to pass without the dark red lipstick and very high heels I prefer, in order to be more passable and comfortable. But as I said in other threads, I prefer to dress up the way it excites me most, and that means wearing those fetish items. In addition to dark red lipstick (and nails to match) and very high heels, which have always been strong fetishes for me, other items which can by themselves excite are long fake eyelashes with heavy eye makeup and certain wig styles, to a somewhat lesser intensity. I wear other items which are made for women (pantyhose, foundation & powder, jewelry, etc), but they don't have special arousal effects and are worn to complete the feminine appearance.
Without a doubt, I have fetishes. Without a doubt, I am a crossdresser.
Certainly, there can be fetishists who don't crossdress, and crossdressers without fetishes. But one can be both.
I agree with you - there isn't a fetish stage. But sexual excitement often accompanies crossdressing during the time of life when the hormone faucet is wide open.

[Fab Karen]

My other concern with this being projected as a progression from A to D is that some could use this idea to treat those at a different "stage" as some kind of second class citizen.

The fact that I am transsexual does not make me any better or any less good than any other member of crossdressers.com
Another important point that seems to have been overlooked.

[tamarav]

I have never been a "label" person and can't quite understand the fascination with having to tack a label on everyone, but I do enjoy reading all the replies. Heck, I might even learn something.

[Mikaela]

Labels give power, they also take it away.

When someone can identify with a definition, it gives them the opportunity to take a shortcut to understanding instead of a lot of introspection. A label can give a sense of identity and it can give a sense of community.

A label can be used to hurt or stereotype. It can be use to generalize. A person who agrees with 80% of a label may find themselves changing to reflect the other 20%.

I thought I could accept being called bi-gender. It's close, but not quite true.

I looked at the Benjamin Scale. Wow, do I not fit there.
I'm 0 on the Kinsey.
I generally feel Masculine, but sometimes there is a 180 switch (which is why I got into considering the bi-gender thing). There is nothing but Type 3 on the Benjamin Scale that seems to allow that.
I live as a man. I've never underdressed not counting leggings under my jeans for cold weather motorcycling.
Sex object is primarily hetero. It's been asexual. I'm "lesbian" when femme. Never been or attracted to a guy. I've purged before. I'm not turned on by the touch of the clothing or anything like that. It's part of the costume and expression of the female personality.
No desire to transition, medicate, or see a psych.
I don't despise my junk, I just wish I could switch it out like a wig. I do have something of a double personality for convenience.
I do experience dysphoria and have since I was a kid, but it's not like I know I'm in the wrong body.

So yeah, even this clinical labeling fails with me.
I cross dress. It defines that action, not the motivation or the person. I wish I knew more - whether to correct it, understand it, or take more advantage of it, but that answer will only come from the experiences, not the words.

[Pythos]

Mikaela,

I saw those "official" scales and for lack of a better term felt annoyed. Not one of those describe me. The closest one was labeled with the word "fetishistic".

What you describe is very much how I am to. I live as a male, BUT I do wear fem styles, and prefer such. Like you have never been sexually attracted to a male.

The only reason I would see a therapist is to deal with the bigotry. Possibly also to show I am not crazy. I simply have a different eye for fashion, and have an interest in "fem" styles for myself, as well as would like to encourage other males to do it. When it comes to junk, I wish it was retractable :). LOL.

At present I too am asexual, sick and tired of dealing with silly notions. But when enfem I am lesbian for lack of a better term.

[barbara gordon]

Hello to all... I think that this is a good attempt by Alexia to define and describe what she is going through , and by extension , what we each may have gone through (at least in part ) .
I like how she has repeatedly added the disclaimer that it is her idea, how it may be flawed , and how it is open for comment and criticism .
I hope that all will remember this point.
I can relate to some of what she posted , but not all of it . Not the details , and not the sequence . But I can still relate.

I think that it is this type of curiosity is what keeps a forum like this interesting , relevant , and useful. each of us must have our own experience . We all have our own reasons for seeking some (or more) feminine self. I think that we each probably have different starting points and different endpoints where and how we transform ourselves . We each have different limits and goals. But we all have so much in common too. It is nice to be able to define oneself , even though no complete definition is possible. I knew from a very young age that I had a difference in my gender !dentity . I am so happy to have all of the info from you all so that I can understand my own experience better.

[Cheryl T]

This Label system is not new. I believe it was Harry Benjamin who developed it first and it actually had 10 stages.
Labels are inherently bad...but unfortunately sometimes necessary.

[Asche]

My problem with Alexei's scale is that it's one-dimensional. It's as if someone were assuming that "travel" necessarily means going from New York City to Washington, DC on I-95. It leaves out those who want to go to Boston or Oneonta or Hudson Bay, not to mention those who just like to drive around at random and see the countryside.

I'm not sure whether she meant to come up with labels for everyone here, or just for a subset. She uses the term "transgender condition," which I've seen used to mean anything from serious transsexuality to guys who like pink. So maybe she is only talking about those people to whom her labels apply.

They definitely don't apply to me. I'm someone who is definitely gender non-conformant -- for starters, I like to wear skirts and dresses -- but on the other hand, I don't feel like I have a "female self" (or a male one, either.) In fact, I have never been able to figure out what gender even means beyond anatomy and the mishegoss that society tries to brainwash you with. I'm incorporating more "for women only" things into my life, but I don't see that as "expressing femaleness." I'm just no longer limiting myself to what society deems acceptable for males. I have no interest in progressing towards "true femininity" because "true femininity" seems just as limiting and alien to me as "true masculinity." I feel like I would be just exchanging one set of chains for another.

[Inna]

My problem with Alexei's scale is that it's one-dimensional. It's as if someone were assuming that "travel" necessarily means going from New York City to Washington, DC on I-95. It leaves out those who want to go to Boston or Oneonta or Hudson Bay, not to mention those who just like to drive around at random and see the countryside.

I'm not sure whether she meant to come up with labels for everyone here, or just for a subset. She uses the term "transgender condition," which I've seen used to mean anything from serious transsexuality to guys who like pink. So maybe she is only talking about those people to whom her labels apply.

They definitely don't apply to me. I'm someone who is definitely gender non-conformant -- for starters, I like to wear skirts and dresses -- but on the other hand, I don't feel like I have a "female self" (or a male one, either.) In fact, I have never been able to figure out what gender even means beyond anatomy and the mishegoss that society tries to brainwash you with. I'm incorporating more "for women only" things into my life, but I don't see that as "expressing femaleness." I'm just no longer limiting myself to what society deems acceptable for males. I have no interest in progressing towards "true femininity" because "true femininity" seems just as limiting and alien to me as "true masculinity." I feel like I would be just exchanging one set of chains for another.

I certainty like your point and I believe, a lot of our community can identify with your vision of the world. Transgenderism if a fluid condition, and gender it self is in a flux, where mix of masculinity and femininity can occur at any proportion to each other. I also believe that every human being is made up of such mixture of characteristics. Some have more masculinity, some more femininity. Hence manly females feminine males and so on. Of course I am not attempting to make up a "one fits all" definition but it would be nice to get closer to the true understanding. I am studying psychology at this time, not scholastically, but am considering such, it is both fascinating and scary. I am discovering that what we consider conscious and fixed is only a tip of an iceberg. Under small tip of this enormous self lies subconscious, an autopilot which has its own self protection mode and will often control and disallow direct knowledge of what really makes us tick.

Often our view of the world and ourselves within is skewed and clouded. I often heard some girls here describe them selves quite categorically as one way or the other to then 1 or 2 years later admit to feel a much grander scope of their gender continuum. Often fear, guilt, self dissatisfaction, and so on, contribute to trying to put a lid on the feelings and lead to limited description and self understanding. But this shall remain as long as bigotry and non acceptance surrounds us.

Love, Inna.