Conformity – is it necessary?

[Frédérique]

“The nail that sticks up will be hammered flat” (Japanese saying)

The word “conformity” has been popping up in many disparate posts lately, thanks to a ubiquitous member or two, so I thought I would start a discussion about this intractable concept we seem to revolve around. Can we, as MtF crossdressers, exist without the constant presence of conformity, or do we need a repellant force to be consistently at odds with? I am a male-to-female crossdresser, and that means I’m a nonconformist. The very fact that I’m doing something I’m not supposed to do, i.e. wear the “wrong” clothing, puts me at odds with those who would either seek to conform me or condemn me...

Conformity is NOT my favorite word, since it implies acquiescence, allegiance, obedience, and resignation. Conformity is always there, trying to force me to follow the crowd and obey rules I do not, or cannot, agree with. In my case, the age of consent never comes along, since I will not accommodate myself to an ordinary state. The natural state is just fine, thank you, and it exists as an oasis away from conformity – there’s that word again! I often look around, see conformity at every turn, and wonder how it got there in the first place. Also, who is ultimately responsible for the continuity of ossified ideas? Personally, I blame the unimaginative conformists...

I recently read a post where someone said that “giving in” to a little conformity will allow a person to achieve his or her true potential. According to whom? Even here, in this haven of unconventionality, the spectre of conformity rears it’s head of conventionality – what’s a girl to do? Well, I shan’t be like a normal male and display mindless aggression at every perceived slight – that’s what they, the conformists, would want me to do. I mean, I crossdress because at some time during my adolescence I became disenchanted with masculine characteristics, as outlined by conformity, so I turned away, in a last-ditch effort to save myself from a life of pre-determined expectation. I am conspicuously absent from the life most others lead (or are led by), alone with my thoughts, happy to be on a less-traveled, and less frequented path. Glad to meet you...

I like the word “submission,” even though conformity implies surrender to something you can’t fully get behind. I will not fight, so my contumaciousness is passive rather than aggressive. I confess I enjoy having something to push against, namely conformity in all its many forms, and “skirt” the issue of affinity with a definite flair. The presence of conformity keeps my innocent crossdressing, and all other alternative forms of personal expression and exploration, pushed out of sight for the good of those who strain to see habitual order amongst the chaos. I have met numerous conformist figures, male and female, many of whom I admire for one quality or another, but I do not admire blind adherence to conformity. Since life is short, and we all contemplate how to best spend our brief time on the stage of life, why willingly choose to conform? Shouldn’t we be automatically repelled by any constriction, and live life according to our own principles? Isn’t this what a crossdresser does? I don’t see how a MtF crossdresser can be a conformist, unless an attraction to conformity creates a balance in one’s mind, squaring the circular peg to better fit in your (chosen) square hole...

I mean, I’m certainly NOT an expert on conformity – I’m a visual artist, a person concerned with imagination, artistic license, and alternative sensibilities. As such, I know who the enemy is – I often bump into people who cannot visually identify certain colors, let alone grasp the notion that the 20th century, with its plethora of revolutionary ideas, ever existed. I label these people conformists, and they are not individuals – the latter would be akin to a perversion, something to subjugate, weaken, or eliminate for the ultimate good of society. Needless to say, I do not declare my innate queerness to such an audience, nor do I place my hands on my hips in a gesture of effeminacy, since it will be detected and censured. After all, I want to get home in one piece and don my uniform of nonconformity. Am I being a conformist once-removed by not being more obviously effeminate to all? Perhaps, but, in my mind, I’m surrendering for a good cause, namely my own survival...

I admire strangeness, something that has nothing to do with conformity, unless it is seen as the antithesis of what is accepted and unchallenged – uniqueness, unconventionality, and eccentricity are my standards of nonconformity. If you conform to an accepted standard, you are in deference to it, while the nonconformist has made a conscious difference for the benefit of his or her chosen existence. To an outsider, a MtF crossdresser may seem like a capricious individual whose particularities add up to peculiarity, or even singularity. Not a useful member of society. How can we embrace commonality and dullness when we are openly turning our backs on conformity by dressing this way? On the other hand, if conformity wasn’t there, omnipresent and ominous in its inevitable heaviness, we wouldn’t have something to avoid or escape from. I yearn for separateness from expectation – if I choose to conform, the spirit inside me will either suffer a miscarriage or die completely. I don’t really believe there IS a “spirit,” but I use the term purely for convenience...

I’ve met a lot of conformists on this site, yet we males are all engaged in nonconformist activity by dressing as women. I know this is a true statement because this past weekend I didn’t see one iota of effeminacy on display ANYWHERE. Let me qualify that. If you are an MtF crossdresser, you are effeminate, and the latter flies in the face of conformity – it will ALWAYS be like this, because, even here in this oasis of nonconformity, ideas of conformity are being championed and pushed along to the next generation (or each other). I would add “for better or worse,” but that would be like rounding off the EDGES, and that is a conformist activity. The world you are allowed to see is like a window display of accepted models to emulate, and you are expected to harmonize for the good of all concerned. “When in Rome...” they say, but what if you avoid the entire peninsula?

I have a large male cat that sleeps in a small cardboard box – in doing so he unconsciously conforms to the shape of the box, but he seems comfortable. Are you doing the same thing? I live in a small town comprised mainly of conformists, but I’ve learned to live within this artificial structure and hide my differences – in a way, I have conformed by making myself invisible. That reminds me – recently my neighbor, a Mr. W, died at the age of 83. He was a life-long artist, married, with two children. Locally he was seen as an opinionated curmudgeon, or, begrudgingly, as a very talented, eccentric artisan who NEVER followed the crowd. When my sister and I moved into this house, Mr. W called and invited us over for a visit, one of the few neighbors who reached out to us. He had, by necessity, learned to fit into the box of conformity that society had provided, but he had also miraculously preserved his recalcitrance and endearing oddness. Mr. W showed me his workshops, his gardens, and artwork created with nearly every conceivable medium, all done HIS way with extreme sensitivity. After his death the local paper ran a tribute written by the same conformists he was conspicuously at loggerheads with, ones who will never understand their role in making individuals out of a minority of the populace – nonconformity cannot exist without conformity, so we make strange bedfellows. I do not hate conformity, but it hates me, the nonconformist...
:straightface:

So, what are your thoughts about conformity? Are you a closeted conformist, or a glaringly unrepentant nonconformist? I ASSUME you’re not a 100% conformist, otherwise why would you be here?

[VioletJourney]

I've got a few thoughts about this.

First of all, one of the main reasons conformity has to exist is for it to be broken. If there wasn't some strict set of rules you have to follow, then there would be no opportunity for individuality and self-discovery through challenging those rules.

I also feel that there's two forms of conformity: social conformity and legal conformity. And our society has come to the point that in some cases they are actually conflicting. You are socially expected to do things like speed and roll through stop signs. To not break these laws makes you a wuss or "goody two shoes"; in fact, it's come to the point that with minor crimes legal obedience is socially unacceptable.

[geri-tg.]

Wonderful and well thought out question. Even if we do crossdress we still seem to try very hard to conform. I wonder if it is out of fear that we conform.

[sandra-leigh]

Huh? The person two offices down can't identify certain colors visually, but he has all the hallmarks of being an individual. Not his fault that he is red-green color blind. Likewise, the tone-deaf and rhythm-deaf have been shown to have differences in the way their brain processes information -- it isn't that they "reject" the tones or rhythms: they cannot perceive them.

[Fab Karen]

I don't understand this word.

Woody Allen ( tearing up ticket cop has given him into little pieces & throwing them away ) "It's nothing personal, I've just always had issues with authority figures"


"To not break these laws makes you a wuss or "goody two shoes""
But ask yourself if someone gets killed because you didn't want to appear a "wuss" is it worth it?

[sissystephanie]

I am a Crossdresser, so I guess that makes me a Non- Conformist!! But do I care?? Not even one tiny bit!! Great Thread, just way too long and totally unnecessary!! Another label!!

[kendra_gurl]

Since your post is way too long to reply with Quotes I'll keep my responce very simple

With all things in life there is A TIME AND A PLACE FOR EVERYTHING. Everyone rebels and everyone conforms depending on the sitiuation It's called LIFE

[DonniDarkness]

Frederique,

Fully "Conform?".......never....... it would tear out the soul of any creative mind. Creativity in its most ravishing splendor is truly a byproduct of thinking outside the box. In order for you to be outside the box, the box must exist. That box, my friend, is "Conformity" in some shape, form or version of linear thinking.

Does Conformity Help?, sure....it quells chaos and gives the uninspired direction, Should we submit to it?.... Well you said it best yourself....


I’m surrendering for a good cause, namely my own survival...

Does that mean we should shell over our creativity and inspiration to the ideal?

No, because without it we would never be able to leave the box.


I have a large male cat that sleeps in a small cardboard box – in doing so he unconsciously conforms to the shape of the box, but he seems comfortable.

He is comfortable because he knows he can leave the box... whenever he is inspired......

Outside the Box,

-Donni-

[Maria Blackwood]

It's a simple thing, actually. There is a certain level of conformity required to have a functioning civilization, but it doesn't take much. Easy stuff like "Hey, lets not just go around killing and stealing from one another, and we'll even punish those who do, and protect anyonewho might not be able to protect themselves." You know, big ticket items. The Libertarians use the phrase "your rights end where mine begin" and I feel that's a good starting place. A kernal, so to speak, around which to build your operating system.

Where society goes off the rails is trying to get conformity even on tiny little details. I can't find a society in this world that doesn't do that.


I have a large male cat that sleeps in a small cardboard box

He would get along with Maru, then. Total boxaholic.

http://sisinmaru.blog17.fc2.com/

[TxKimberly]

Since your post is way too long to reply with Quotes I'll keep my response very simple

With all things in life there is A TIME AND A PLACE FOR EVERYTHING. Everyone rebels and everyone conforms depending on the situation It's called LIFE

I kind of like Kendra's answer.

Based on what you have told us of your occupation Frédérique, you may be in a somewhat unique position as compared to most of the rest of us. From what little I know of the Arts community, there is probably no other field in the world as open and accepting of eccentricity, uniqueness, or alternative lifestyles. I believe that in many cases it would actually be considered an asset and something that might actually benefit your career. When people find that an artist crossdresses, they shake their heads and with a grin say something along the alines of "Well, what do you expect from an artist?"
For most of the rest of us though, it is exactly the opposite. If the wrong people at my company found out about me for example, my job of 16 years would come crashing to an end. I would loose my home and my wife and children would go homeless and hungry. So in my case, I have to make the choice - conform at work or watch my life and family be destroyed. So in my own case, and I assume quite a lot of others here, yes - I must conform at work or pay an enormous price for standing on my principles.
When it comes to personal life on the other hand, I'm not at all shy about what I am and am perfectly comfortable telling anyone and everyone that asks about it - as long as they are not related to my work. LOL

You made a point on that other thread you mention though that has almost haunted me since the day I read it:
"History is full of people who never conformed, and THEY are the ones who are remembered and revered…"

No reasonably sane individual in the world would argue with that. It IS the unique individuals that change the world, and sometimes the world even remembers them for it. An excellent point to be reminded of.

P.S. - I've got to tell you that your writing is awesome. Are you sure that you shouldn't have become a writer? :)

[LACD]

If you really want to look at conformity, take a look at some Harley riders next time you can. They all strive to be different yet they all conform to a certain style or look. We are only alike so we can all be different. to me, if you are a crossdresser, transgender or other, we are all different but deep down we all strive to get in touch with another part of ourselves. That side is looked down on by the morally righteous or the bullies who are afraid of us. We each have our own style but we all maintain our differences and I think it is wonderful. The outside world views us as one thing, we all view ourselves as beautiful people. Just my $0.02.:drink:

[Pythos]

conformity has its place. But frankly I think we humans over do it. We judge people based on their attire, rather than their abilities. SEEMS TO HAVE DONE REAL GREAT FOR THE ECONOMY, lol. No, seriously though. The only places I see conformity being necessary really is in machines. Machines mechanically and electronically should not differ that much. I want the strength of the bolts holding the wings on my plane to be conforming with HIGH standards. I want the bolts to conform with proper manufacturing technique. I personally could not care less what the SA at a store I am purchasing something from is wearing, as long as it was within public decency boundaries. As I have mentioned, I did not give a fig about what clothing an applicant for a mechanic position wore to an interview with me. They could come in wearing a tu tu. I want to see the individual's experience, as well as observe their hands on skills on a plane I set aside for them to do a quick repair on.

I personally think turning someone down outright based on the clothing they wear is so beyond asinine. I wonder how many really really good workers have been turned down in favor of the slickly attired nincompoop.

[Danni Renee]

Conformity is such an interesting animal. Some of us talk about how being cross dressers makes us non-conformist. Yet when we create posts here on the forum, do we not conform to someone’s idea of a natural ordering of things? Conformity can be large or it can be small. It can be good and it can be bad.

In my mind conformity is built upon two things. The first is the human desire not to feel alone. We all feel the tug of loneliness, that desire to find another or a group and be loved and accepted for who we are. We get a thrill when we meet someone who has the same opinions and same ideas and we get closer. Yet because everyone is unique there are always little differences and a tug to change or to ask the other to change to meet expectations. Innocent intent meant to bring a group closer but the seeds of conformity none the less.

The second is the human desire to bring order to our lives. As we grow we all develop our core values and beliefs. These values and beliefs provide “boxes” that we use to categorize people and activities – not necessarily in a negative way, just a way that we organize our thoughts. This organization simply provides our minds with a way of understanding our environment but can lead to a desire for conformity so that a person or activity can fit neatly in a box.

The desire to not feel alone and to bring order to our lives are not bad things so what makes “conformity” so awful? It brings us together and allows us to operate in an orderly manner.

The answer lies in how conformity is achieved. When a group comes together, like us here on the forum, we have a freedom to express our feelings and ideas within our group with little fear of repercussion if you have a different belief than someone else. We willingly conform to the rules of the forum to help us achieve order and connection with others. We may enter and leave as we choose and participate in accordance with our desire.

In the real world conformity is more often achieved through insidious and violent methods. Wear pink socks to school and you get beaten up by other boys until you wear white socks. Pass a law through Congress and you can force everyone to comply through legal means (which in and of itself is violence or the threat of violence by “authorities” to get you to comply).

Our problem with conformity is that too often it is forced upon us, almost always “for our own good”. It is this use of force against us that makes us angry and want to rebel. If I want to wear a dress to work who are you to tell me I can’t? In an ideal world we would simply keep looking to find those like us that do not care and group together and do what we want. If we changed our minds we could freely leave the group to look for another group in whose beliefs we share. But we do not live in an ideal world; we live in a world where power is derived from grouping together. The goal of the group becomes keeping the group together instead of simply feeling connected and providing a sense of order.

And this is the real issue with conformity – not that it isn’t needed or even desired; it is that we want the freedom to choose to conform the way we want and the freedom to change without harassment or fear if we no longer wish to conform.

[Staci G]

Yes I do believe it is out of fear, fear of rejection, fear of condemnation, fear of humiliation. It goes on and on. I am a conservitive even in my cross dressing I am still modest and try to dress age approprate. Kinda contradictory huh.
Wonderful and well thought out question. Even if we do crossdress we still seem to try very hard to conform. I wonder if it is out of fear that we conform.

[Frédérique]

I apologize for taking so long to respond – last night we were being “entertained” by the threat of tornados coming in from the northwest, so I was in the basement (and offline)...:worried:


The person two offices down can't identify certain colors visually, but he has all the hallmarks of being an individual. Not his fault that he is red-green color blind.

I was NOT referring to color blindness. I was making a broad reference, or a metaphor, about people who cannot see things that others can, and what that may or may not imply. In fact, I was simply paraphrasing something I heard many years ago, lifted out of its political context. Everyone is an individual, but is the individual you refer to individualistic? Can you appreciate the difference?


Great Thread, just way too long and totally unnecessary!!

That’s my style, Steph! I was going to apologize to you, personally, in the body of the OP, but I ran out of room...:doh::heehee:


"Well, what do you expect from an artist?"

The funny thing is, artists are largely conformist, guided by rules, historical references, and dwindling resources that rein in free expression left and right. The successful artist has always conformed to one degree or another in an effort to survive, much like the MtF crossdresser may have to hide his/her passion to keep the “magic” alive (like me). Conformists rule the roost, and, since I’m not a fighter, I just want to live in peace, get along with others and cultivate my little garden of nonconformity. My world is a reflection of THEIR world, and once in a while the conformist sees what I see and profits by it – in this way they need us, and vice versa, since every part has its counterpart in nature...

Being an artist does help me to get away with certain eccentricities; in fact my sister was not at all surprised when I “came out” to her last year! Crossdressing, like the creation of artwork, is all about appreciating, and then making use of, one’s sensibilities, in an attempt to make something truly beautiful...


The desire to not feel alone and to bring order to our lives are not bad things so what makes “conformity” so awful? It brings us together and allows us to operate in an orderly manner.

If it can be accomplished without group-thinking, group-ideology, or group expectations, so much the better, but is that possible? I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase, “You’re either with US, or with THEM,” right? That’s the insistent voice of conformity. Adherence to someone else’s ideal is a dangerous concept, wouldn’t you agree? My whole point with the OP was to state that conformity gives rise to nonconformity by its very existence – we need IT, but it doesn’t think it needs us. Some of us embrace conformity, even longing for it without question, while others need to turn away and seek their own nonconformist comforts. I believe that I can “operate in an orderly manner” without conformity dictating how it SHOULD be done...
:straightface:

[sandra-leigh]

Do we have to "go along to get along"? Try just taking something instead of conforming to the practice of paying for it or bargaining for it or asking for it and see what happens. Try walking along naked on the streets and see if the results of your non-conformity allows you to "reach your full potential". You could live in an anarchist compound, but how long would they let you live there if you didn't keep your word?

[drushin703]

Fred:
are the prison systems of america places where the non-conformist go to learn to behave? Or, are prisons just places where extremist are housed
because of their actions against a conformist society. You have mentioned in previous posts that you are a closeted crossdresser, meaning you
chose to dress as a women in private but stay safely in the house.If you never leave the house dressed then you are neither a conformist or a
non-conformist.But I understand fully. That closet door can be heavy as hell.When I was a boy I put on moms girdles for pleasure, devoid of imagination.
I did not think myself a princess or a beautifull girl, a girl trapped in a young boys body or omg a transexual. I was just having a darn good time.

Fast forard to the adult Dana.I dress in short skirts and dresses, pants that are tight and zip in the back.I wear pantyhose regardless of the
weather with pantys and pad.In other words I am a non-conformist doing this as a male, but only if someone sees me.Emily Dickenson wrote
of love but never knew it.You have to visit conformity to know what non conformity is....But for the very first time and after reading all of your
well thought out wonderful posts, I can hear a sense of pain in your writing..And if so, drop it.As you mentioned, life IS short.Live it and live it good
whether you conform or no...................I have been to those small towns that you speak of and they are scarry.......dana.

[carhill2mn]

My short answer to your long dissertation is: "No, I do not need to push against conformity in order to enjoy crossdressing". I just enjoy it!

[Marissa]

Frederique, I will once again try to 'amuse' you and be the inspiration of which this thread was created from :D

It must be a lonely and majestic view upon the highest of all mountain tops of which you stand alone in a world of 'non-conformists'..the sole person who will never keep the same pace or stride of one who walks beside you.

You peer below to all who conform (as that is anyone who conforms to anything)..alas, you see one with arms extending to its fullest to reach you with all his/her might. You see eyes of determination and accept the person as worthy to stand with you..a fellow non-conformist.

Time drudges on and the gathering has multiplied exponentially, until the multitude of non-conformists look down to the fraction of conformist...

As your (or is it you're??? ;) ) voice is heard "why can they not conform to our non-conformist?" :D

Fred, as much as you state being a non-conformist, your posts are sprinkled with conforming..and still you point a finger at others with your words.

There is not one who fully conforms or one who fully non-conforms.. we each decide what is best for us, what boundaries we will cross..and how much (if we care at all) of it will affect others...

And..as others have stated, you are a great writer with an artistic mind that you shape to fit in the box :heehee:


**Quote edited**


Try walking along naked on the streets and see if the results of your non-conformity allows you to "reach your full potential".

Its so funny Sandra that as I pondered a response, this very thought ran through my head :)

[Eryn]

Frédérique, I always feel a bit inadequate to respond to your threads because they are so well-thought-out. No matter what I write I feel like I'm just saying "Ditto!" :)

However, I will give it a shot. If there were no conformity there would be nothing but chaos, a situation that is not tenable. For unconformity to be meaningful, there must be a background of conformity. I think that humans are spontaneously conformists, wishing to fit in and be accepted among whatever group they are associating.

That even occurs when we are intentionally non-conforming such as when we interact on this forum. We may shed some of our male conformity, but we adopt female norms and even some norms unique to CDers.

When I dress I reject male terms of conformity, but at the same time I adopt female forms because I wear my clothes just so, wear makeup in the female style, etc. In fact, adopting female forms of conformity is part of my enjoyment of CDing.

A total non-conformist might would put lipstick on his knees, eyeshadow on the soles of his feet, and wear a trash bag as a dress! That level of nonconformity does not appeal to me.

[Jordana Divinorum]

It's true that human beings enforce and reproduce the social norms. I believe individuality is extremely important as it is the foundation of unity. Oneness is infinite possibilities and expressing individual uniqueness is necessary to establish harmony. The media also reproduces the social norms but uses words like "inviduality" to sell things even though they're part of a trend. It's true we all conform in one way or another by not walking around naked or not killing each other. However, those that bully others for looking/thinking/acting differently than them are restricting progress toward a society where people are allowed to themselves (without breaking the law or hurting others), and therefore slowing down progress toward a more unified humanity.

[KrystalA]

Conformity..LOL...reminds me of the hippie days when everyone said "I won't conform by wearing a suit or a uniform", and so they all wore jeans and tie-dyed t-shirts.

[Tina B.]

We conform for acceptance, just like everyone else in the world, we all want to belong, the trick is, find people you share a lot of interest with and conform to that group. In My life I have identified as a beatnik, a hippy, a Sailor, and a Trucker, and I fit in with all of them. I Identify as a Crossdresser and I have a lot in common with that group too. As a hippy I noticed we where all different, just the same as all the other hippies that where dressed pretty much the same way I was. Pick a group and conform, when it no longer works for you, pick another group, or like some of us just be a hermit.
Tina B.

[Frédérique]

Try walking along naked on the streets and see if the results of your non-conformity allows you to "reach your full potential".

So, you equate nonconformity with nakedness? Is this appropriate for a crossdressing forum? :idontknow:

That’s OK, Sandra, I know what’s going on – you don’t like what I write, or you don’t like ME, so you run a fine tooth comb through my posts in an effort to find some bone of contention to use against me, completely avoiding the "thread." You know, I get the feeling that if I wrote, “Some people can’t walk the walk OR talk the talk,” you would immediately attempt to discredit me by making a pithy pronouncement about your friend, the paraplegic mute...

In your case, I guess that picking apart other member’s posts qualifies as “reaching your full potential?” Instead of using me as a nonconformist whipping girl, why don’t you shape your own jumbled thoughts into words and make them available as cannon fodder? I won’t be reading them, of course, but others may be amused by your...ahem...insights...


...are the prison systems of america places where the non-conformist go to learn to behave? Or, are prisons just places where extremist are housed because of their actions against a conformist society.

Let me clarify something – when I’m talking about conformity, I’m specifically talking about conforming to gender roles as outlined and reinforced by society. Many of us balk at “playing by the rules,” a conformist notion to be sure, but that is not the topic here. Indeed, if we didn’t adhere to rules, we wouldn’t be having this (attempt at a) discussion, would we?


It must be a lonely and majestic view upon the highest of all mountain tops of which you stand alone in a world of 'non-conformists'..the sole person who will never keep the same pace or stride of one who walks beside you.
Fred, as much as you state being a non-conformist, your posts are sprinkled with conforming..and still you point a finger at others with your words.

Yes, Marissa, it’s lonely at the top! I can just make you out, far below, walking aimlessly along a twisting path, if I use my radio telescope at maximum magnification. You COULD walk beside me if you stopped throwing stones at me, in fact you may actually like me if you would drop this pointless façade. Since you and Sandra seek to throw me off the mountain (hey, you began this metaphor), I can only offer a hug and a kiss, surrendering to your latent conformist bullying. Yes, it’s rather chilly way up here, but I can see the Sun coming up from my elevated position. Don’t forget – YOU put me here...

BTW, you were not the inspiration for the OP, and I do not “point fingers” at people with words. If anything, I’m pointing a finger at myself and writing about it. I’m sorry if you are somehow intimidated by what I write, but more will be forthcoming. You can safely ignore me if you wish...


That even occurs when we are intentionally non-conforming such as when we interact on this forum. We may shed some of our male conformity, but we adopt female norms and even some norms unique to CDers.

Oh, conformity is all around, even though crossdressing is inherently nonconformist. I see (or read) clashes between different “norms” of crossdressing all the time, to the point where I feel I should declare where I’m coming from in the body of a post – i.e. “I am THIS kind of crossdresser, so some of you won’t agree with what I write.” Doing that simple type of disclaimer beforehand would help to avoid the personal reproaches some members feel the need to include in a “serious” discussion of this nature (see above)...
:straightface:

[Maria Blackwood]

if I use my radio telescope at maximum magnification.

Er, you might want to use an optical telescope there. All the radio telescope will give you is the raw transmissions of every cell phone and wi-fi hotspot within its aperture. ;-)

[WendyH]

Conformity is a slippery creature. Imagine three beautifully and fashionably dressed, gorgeous women walking down the street. One dresses fashionably (i.e. conforms to current modes of fashion) because she wants to be like everyone else. The second does so because she wants to camouflage her inherent weirdness and minimize social discomfort. The thirds does not give a damn what anyone thinks, but dresses the way she does because she wants to. Are all three conformists? They may appear so if we don't know what's in their hearts and minds, but I think intention is important.

I believe conformity has a strong biological component. The most conformist humans on the planet are teens; if they are not conforming to the "mainstream" they are conforming to others in whatever clique they belong to. Teens care very much what their peers think and do. This tendency gradually fades as we age. I have found a lot more nonconformists in the older age groups. And it's not that they are explicitly rebelling against conformity necessarily, they have simply found that life's too short to care much what other people think.

[Nicole Erin]

In the articulative perspective of the arteriosclerosis view of which fredrique and coherently verbalized her concerns of the semi-social molecular structure of just what conformity means to a population at large, I have come to the conclusion that carrying threads of a different biological sex is perhaps not acceptable to those who may have been raised in a conformist fundamentalist dwelling in which was accepted in the year that is the square root of 3515625.

So in other words, Fredrique, is there any way you could maybe shorten that and not talk like you are trying to impress everyone with your weird vocabulary?

[NathalieX66]

At work, it's my job to conform. I represent the company I work for....not me. . That's how I pay the mortgage. I like my job, and I appreciate being well-liked.

Outside of that, I'm me...and I don't give a rat's a**

[docrobbysherry]

However, I've been one for a VERY LONG TIME! I'm even a nonconformist among other CD's!:brolleyes:

I'll tell u a few things that I've found out about them, and myself!:straightface:

True nonconformists may not really understand HOW or WHY others conform! I can't say I even understand what a real conformist is or does, SPECIFICALLY. And, I can't point to my friends and tell u which ones r or aren't!:eek:

And finally, being an OLD noncomformist, I believe if u r one, you'll get to the point where u say, "Quite frankly Charlotte, I really don't give a dam"!

[Danni Renee]

If it can be accomplished without group-thinking, group-ideology, or group expectations, so much the better, but is that possible? I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase, “You’re either with US, or with THEM,” right? That’s the insistent voice of conformity. Adherence to someone else’s ideal is a dangerous concept, wouldn’t you agree? My whole point with the OP was to state that conformity gives rise to nonconformity by its very existence – we need IT, but it doesn’t think it needs us. Some of us embrace conformity, even longing for it without question, while others need to turn away and seek their own nonconformist comforts. I believe that I can “operate in an orderly manner” without conformity dictating how it SHOULD be done...
:straightface: [/QUOTE]

I do believe that conformity can be accomplished without group think or group expectation - I do not think it is very common but it does occur. But the more people in the group, the more the group dynamics change to become the negative connotation we associate with conformity.

You mention "Adherence to someone else’s ideal is a dangerous concept" and I agree completely. But what if you are not adhering to someone else's ideal and instead it is a shared ideal? You have created a connection that from the outside can be viewed as conformity, especially as the group grows in size.

After reading all the posts to this thread I have not seen anything to make me change my base opinion: conformity is not the real issue or a problem. We all conform to some standard and are equally viewed as non conformist by those who hold another view. The real issue with conformity is when it is achieved or attempted to be achieved through negative means. Unfortunately this is the way conformity is typically achieved and so we all have a negative opinion of something that in and of itself is truly neutral.

[Iskandra]

Discarding one conformity, in this case male dress, for female dress is still conforming.. Conforming to societies views of how a woman dresses..
It is not a simple black and white.. Everyone conforms to that which they choose to.. And in saying that everyone also is non conforming to the things they reject..

Years/decades ago a woman wearing pants or heaven forbid smoking was non conforming, just unlady like.. :eek: Showing your underwear, ala Madonna with her bra on the outside?! :eek: etc..

To me conformity and morals are fluid and differ from person to person, age to age, thus meaningless..

I do not go to work and wear a uniform to conform, I do it to enable me to live how I see fit.. As someone who hated to 'conform' when younger it took me many years to learn this..

I..

[Marissa]

**Quote modified**


Many of us balk at “playing by the rules,” a conformist notion to be sure, but that is not the topic here. Indeed, if we didn’t adhere to rules, we wouldn’t be having this (attempt at a) discussion, would we?

Yes, Marissa, it’s lonely at the top! I can just make you out, far below, walking aimlessly along a twisting path, if I use my radio telescope at maximum magnification. You COULD walk beside me if you stopped throwing stones at me, in fact you may actually like me if you would drop this pointless façade. Since you and Sandra seek to throw me off the mountain (hey, you began this metaphor), I can only offer a hug and a kiss, surrendering to your latent conformist bullying. Yes, it’s rather chilly way up here, but I can see the Sun coming up from my elevated position. Don’t forget – YOU put me here...

BTW, you were not the inspiration for the OP, and I do not “point fingers” at people with words. If anything, I’m pointing a finger at myself and writing about it. I’m sorry if you are somehow intimidated by what I write, but more will be forthcoming. You can safely ignore me if you wish...

Oh, conformity is all around, even though crossdressing is inherently nonconformist. I see (or read) clashes between different “norms” of crossdressing all the time, to the point where I feel I should declare where I’m coming from in the body of a post – i.e. “I am THIS kind of crossdresser, so some of you won’t agree with what I write.” Doing that simple type of disclaimer beforehand would help to avoid the personal reproaches some members feel the need to include in a “serious” discussion of this nature (see above)...
:straightface:


http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Marissa
Frederique: even though you apologized to Kim for her 'lecture', I find it rather humorous that you share her beliefs also. Even you conform to obtain what is desired or required and that was the point that Kim was stating. I’m amused that YOU’RE amused…:heehee:


However, it’s a bit of a stretch to say I share Kimberly’s “beliefs.” My words may constitute a compromise for the good of everyone concerned, or a roundabout way to mollify one’s feelings by displaying a little flexibility. Your response has inspired me to start a new thread about the underlying theme of conformity, but I think I’ll leave the relationship room and head back to the MtF area, where I'm more comfortable…

**End of Quotes**

Let me begin with apologizing to ALL on the numerous quotes above but it is necessary to explain this response.

Yes, Fredrique, you stated above from another thread that my response was the inspiration, but that is okay..we'll agree to accept that I am disillussioned :battingeyelashes:

Yes, I put you on that high mountain since you are the first person that I have known who stresses the non-comformity of all..besides, it was just an expression of words to give a picture but again, what was I thinking..like I'm an artist???..no, alas, I am not. I am merely a person who has traveled the world, seen both the beauty and ugly of various cultures, along with the acceptance and non-acceptance of each.

So I find it funny that you see it as me casting stones when all I am doing is adding to the 'discussion'. Again, I apologize for providing my thoughts and beliefs...

I will give one final request, on the title of future threads, please state that you only want responses that agree to your thoughts and from only the names of the following: " insert names here ".

Intimidated by what you write???? no, sweetie, I'm not and I'm sorry if that will bust your bubbled thoughts of me... You will always write as you wish..that is your RIGHT..and in a website as this, its my RIGHT to give feedback or my thoughts in a respectful manner within the guidelines set.

Friends? who we kidding..we are carved of different stones..you are truly a diamond and I am just granite :D

I will not ignore you..but I will concede from responding on your threads as I do not want others to witness a banter such as this. Best wishes and safe journeys as you seek out the answers of the world and beyond :battingeyelashes:

Hugs,
Marissa (an 8am - 5pm conformist) :devil: