Lying

[Sophie86]

A lot is being said about lying in some of the other threads, and the popular consensus is that CDs should tell the entire truth about their crossdressing to their SO's before they get married. Is that how it normally works with issues other than CDing? It seems to me that people keep a lot more things hidden from prospective spouses. For example, here are a few things that women typically don't tell men...

"I'm not really interested in this whole sex thing, but I understand it's what I have to do in order to attract a mate. Just realize that after we get married the frequency is going to drop to about a third of what you consider minimally necessary for your survival."

"I've had some really bad experiences with men, and you're a man, so that makes you responsible for them."

"I don't really agree with your stupid political and philosophical beliefs, but I know that men aren't attracted to argumentative women, so I'll just save the details for after we're married."

"I sometimes poop, and it smells really bad." (Seriously, I've heard of women who won't poop within a mile of their boyfriend.)

"During my period, I can be as bitchy as I like, and you're supposed to just say 'yes ma'am,' and bring me chocolate."

"I have no sense of humor and generally hate life until sometime after lunch."

"I'm maintaining this svelte figure by living on caffeine, air, and a high degree of anxiety. Later, when I feel truly loved, I will relax and start to eat until I'm roughly twice my current size. Then, I'll demand constant affirmation that you love my new figure as much as you ever loved that earlier one."

And then there are the things that even non-CD men don't tell women...

"I realize that, logistically speaking, it's not possible for us to have sex every waking moment while we're dating. When we're living in the same house together, though, I expect the frequency to dramatically improve."

"I masturbate. A lot. Even if we do start having sex more often, I'll probably still find it convenient to masturbate on occasion. I just like it that much."

"I have done some crazy shit to get off. If you ask me for details, I'm going to lie."

"I'm a very tolerant, laid back person, except when people disagree with my political and philosophical beliefs."

"I've had some really bad experiences with women, and you're a woman, so that makes you responsible."

"I'm at my wittiest and most cheerful first thing in the morning."

"Yes, your ass is kind of large. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but objectively speaking, it's a little on the big side."

----

So yeah, lying... There are a lot of things you don't find out about your spouse until you've been married for awhile. Crossdressing is just one more item on the list, and it can be dealt with just like the others are.

[Valerie1973]

You just described my wife. It was all fun and games in the begining. Now, shes not only the member of the prudes but the president. At one time she was polisung my toe nails and putting bras on me and we'd have a few laughs and now that is sick and gross. Everything is gross.

[JulieK1980]

This list IMO exemplifies why so many marriages fail. (Albeit in a funny and amusing way.) Personally I would have no interest in someone that lies, (It's my biggest pet-peeve.) I'd rather be with someone that I can be honest with and is honest with me. I know a lot of people call me an idealist, and think that's unrealistic, but I've been together with my wife for a total of 8 years (including the time we were dating) and to the best of my knowledge there have been no lies. Life's too short for me to have the slightest interest in lying.

[Lorileah]

There are "givens" and there are "Expectations". Many may be blind or ignorant of the "Givens" when they date and marry but they are just part of life in general. Some of these are covered in the dating era, more are covered in the "let's live together" era. Things like bodily functions are givens. Most of us are educated enough now to know that some women have changes during certain times of the month. We are also theoretically smart enough to know that what happens during dating stays in dating (my personal favorite is when a man says "I do" she thinks "Not anymore you won't").

But when it is something that will greatly affect how you get along things need to be out in the open before you make a commitment. I am all for living together before marriage. Things that fall under the "expectations" category should be addressed. It is expected that men will act and dress like men. Not that I agree with the premise but seems 99% of the world does. It is expected that a marriage will result in children. Again that wasn't in my plan but 99% of the world expects that and if you don't want children, it is probably a good idea to tell your spouse before you tie the knot. You may expect your spouse to have a job or stay home. You may expect you spouse to cook. Things that you expect should be discussed. dressing is in that category. If you expect to be accepted as a TG in the relationship, you should bring that up before teh wedding. Just courtesy in my opinion so that she (or he) doesn't invest a lot to find that their expectations are not going to be part of the deal.

Stupid things you did growing up are "givens" after all the male chromosome tends to drive stupid things. You don't need to discuss what has passed and won't likely occur again, but that dress in the closet needs some 'splanin' early on.

[TGMarla]

Uh oh! I'm not going near this one!

159018

[AnnaCalliope]

This is why I dated my SO for almost 4 years, most of that time spent living together, before I proposed. We got to air out all our dirty laundry, figured out each others quirks and personality defects, and realized that we couldn't see our respective futures without the other included.

Of course, she actually ended up marrying a good friend of mine. But that was after I realized that in order to be truly happy, I had to get on the path to transition, and although we love each other dearly, a pseudo-lesbian relationship is not something either of us is seeking. I still consider her my SO and BFF, regardless of our relationship status.

[carhill2mn]

"Lying" is generally frowned upon. However, the truth is that society is unable to function without several forms, types of lying. A few people have brains that make them tell the blunt truth at all times. These people have a very difficult time functioning in society or maintaing relationships.

The "bad news" is that you can spend many years with and do much talking with a person and still will find out at sometime that all that you believed to be true about this person, is not.

[sissystephanie]

I have said it before and will say it again. If you really don't know who you are marrying, you should not get married!! And knowing means not lying, by either party!! I totally disagree with Carole since I very rarely, if ever, tell a lie!! I was raised to always tell the truth, and strive to do so. And I have no problem functioning in society or maintaining relationships. If you spend many years with and do much talking with a person and then find out that what you believed was not true, you did not do a very good job of learning about the person!! Just my opinion, but I think many will agree!!

[Momarie]

Spoken like a bitter angry little man.
Why is this kind of woman/wife bashing allowed on here?

[Sandra]

So yeah, lying... There are a lot of things you don't find out about your spouse until you've been married for awhile. Crossdressing is just one more item on the list, and it can be dealt with just like the others are.



.....and crossdressing is a hell of a lot more serious item than those that you listed.

[JulieK1980]

Spoken like a bitter angry little man.
Why is this kind of woman/wife bashing allowed on here?

I don't think the OP meant it in any way as "bashing" of the woman/wife. But, I think it does illustrate a problem with many relationships. So often it seems that society has accepted lying as a necessary evil. So many of my friends, and family, and coworkers, and just people I meet in general think it's perfectly okay to lie to their spouse to "protect" them. This is apparently true of men and women. But, where does one cross the line between a little white lie, and something dangerous to the relationship? In my humble opinion there is no such thing as a harmless lie. it alienates the other, and of course they never actually know who the person they are with is.

A few months ago, I had a conversation with a coworker, who is married. This person, repeatedly has extra-marital affairs with other people. She spent the entire conversation justifying to (I think herself more than to me) how it's completely okay, and understandable. Her justification being that because he didn't know about the affairs it didn't hurt him. The reality is, she obviously doesn't respect her spouse in any way, (and how can you respect someone that is ignorant of your ways?) she developed over time this feeling of pity for her husband. Pity, because she created this idea in her mind that he was simple for not discovering her repeated affairs.

Ultimately lying, whether they be simple little lies, or (like my example here) big bad ugly ones, all take a toll on a relationship. Eventually it leads to disrespect and sometimes even a complete loathing of the person being lied to. How can anyone honestly say they have a good relationship, if they can't event tell their spouse about their lives? Then we wonder why 60% or so of marriages end in divorce.

As for the "bluntly" honest people having trouble "functioning" in everyday life, Don't believe it. I have no troubles with functioning in society, or with personal relationships. Having tact means I can be brutally honest without offending the person I'm talking to. It's a skill worth having.

[Samantha43]

This doesn't describe my experience at all. I got pretty much what I expected, and so did she.

[Raylene]

I know some are not going to agree with me on this, but I don't think not telling your wife about your crossdressing is lying. Lying is when you are asked a question about something and you do not tell the truth or in some cases there are idiots who tell something that's not true just because they want attention. Alot of crossdressers decide not to tell their so's because they are scared to do so, or they are one of the millon who feel now they are married they will simply quit. We all know now that's not going to happen, but it was a great idea at the time. Had my wife asked me if I was a cd, I would have told her I liked wearing womens clothes. I would have never let crossdressing come between me and my wife and still won't. Yes she knows now. After 30 years of a wonderful marriage and I felt like she loved me enough not to allow the fact that I was a crossdresser destroy our marriage, I told her. She didn't bust at the seams with joy, but she didn't get mad and call me a liar either. We progessed very slowly and now when at home I wear only women clothes. No dresses, high heels, wigs, makeup, etc, but I wear shorts, capris, nice tops and blouses and women shoes. I wear women tennis shoes, jeans and panties, full time regardless were I am. I do not own a pair of men jeans or men's underwear. I'm satisfied with what she allows me to do. If I want to do the makeup, heels and all out full get up, I wait until she is not there and I do it. She always gives me her opinion on something I want to buy because she dresses so nice, and she knows what looks good and what looks tacky, even if I'm only wearing it inside. She just bought me a new tankini with the skirted bottom for when we get in the hot tub. I guess what I'm trying to say, is some people think those who do not tell their SO's everything before marriage is a liar. My wife didn't consider me a liar so I really don't care if some else thinks I'm a liar.

[AllieSF]

JaimeTG's-SO, I also do not think this is bashing. It is humor and you did see the CD lying examples, right? It seems that the CD's lying is always a topic here for obvious reasons. But make no mistake about it, both sides lie and I would guess that it is pretty much a 50/50 share in most normal relationships. She buys something she doesn't need and says nothing when they are on a tight budget, he does the same. Then we run into the issue of what really is a lie, or are all lies truly bad? White lies, incomplete answers, undisclosed information? Lying to me is defined as not telling the truth. So, when a CD does not tell the spouse or SO about the hidden hobby is that a lie, or a hidden activity. Lies always seem to have such a bad and evil connotation, where something that is undisclosed or hidden is and should be treated differently. If someone asks someone what is bothering you and the other replies, "nothing", that is lying pure and simple when something is bothering that person, or is it? Sometimes both parties, but in my experience mostly woman, expect their male partner to "understand" what is meant by "nothing" and other vague answers. Well, I never was someone who could read between the lines of vague answers, so why should I be expected to "understand" what my partner doesn't say? My partner has the same obligation to clearly and frankly explain/answer a direct question like "What is the matter Hon?" as I do.

[Mimi]

From reading this forum and from listening to my SO, it would seem that a number of CDers didn't fully realize their needs until well into their marriages. Perhaps at a young age they thought about dressing, experimented with it, and considered it a passing fantasy or phase, or felt so guilty about it they completely submerged their urges for years. I wouldn't expect my SO to divulge this to me before getting married--this is something that would be very personal, and if he thought that he'd "gotten rid" of the desires and would have no more need to dress or think about dressing, then why would he tell me about it? I don't consider it lying or deceitful. When my SO did tell me about the dressing, it was before she joined this forum and before she started purchasing things. I felt unhappy about the fact that she'd been thinking about these things (and occasionally acting on them) before telling me, but I did not feel betrayed or lied to. It was more that I felt bad that she felt guilty and had kept this pain to herself.

[Philipa Jane]

As one famous character said " Life is like a box of chocolates" Forrest Gump.

Now IMHO no one tells the whole truth about there little idiosyncrasies let alone things that are a deep dark secret from the get go.
These are things you find out as you grow as a couple.
I do agree with the others that some of the things on the list pale in comparison to announcing that you have strong fem tendencies.
I don't believe that we should have this sort of poor comment thrust upon where it appears to be very critical of your wife, but I will defend your right to say it .
It did raise some interesting replies though.
PJ

[tammi ogles]

WOW! I can only wish my SO felt as you do. She let me express myself for a while, but she doesn't. She's aware that I dress, but will not be part of my crossdressing.

Seems like YOU have a great SO. My wife knows of my tendency to wear women's clothes. She purchases some things with me, but I also have do the full blown works when she's not around.

Love your dress! May I borrow it?

I'm in the same marriage. My wife and I used to make-up and dress in lingerie, together. Now, she's VP of the prudes and my femme side is grossly disgusting.

[Tasha McIntyre]

I know some are not going to agree with me on this, but I don't think not telling your wife about your crossdressing is lying

Whether we like it or not, Raylene speaks the undeniable truth.

I don't think (and my wife agrees) that the failure to disclose CDing is not a lie, but rather a deception. No question this deceit is deeply significant and may have the same effect as a lie. A play on words you might think, and maybe so, but a lie is when you are asked outright and you reply with an untruth.

I am one of those who was guilty of not fessing up to my wife when I should have and I do wish I could turn back the sands of time and do things over slightly different. I was deceptive, but definitely not a liar.


Spoken like a bitter angry little man.
Why is this kind of woman/wife bashing allowed on here?

Read the entire OP and you'll see genuine examples of both genders concealing possible downsides (and home truths) to their personality, all put in quite a humorous manner.

[Kate Lynn]

You just described my wife. It was all fun and games in the begining. Now, shes not only the member of the prudes but the president. At one time she was polisung my toe nails and putting bras on me and we'd have a few laughs and now that is sick and gross. Everything is gross.


I think she describes about 99% of the GG's in the human race.

[Kaz]

I think... therefore I lie. When will people get there heads around the fact that we do not know what is true and what is not... we interpret... sometimes we get it wrong... this is NOT lying... the only possible extrapolation is that we are all liers... so then it is all about relativity.. i.e. "you are a lier" in my world of whatever I choose to believe as true! One day a lier, the next a prophet... such is life...

[Momarie]

"I sometimes poop, and it smells really bad." (Seriously, I've heard of women who won't poop within a mile of their boyfriend.)

"During my period, I can be as bitchy as I like, and you're supposed to just say 'yes ma'am,' and bring me chocolate."

"I have no sense of humor and generally hate life until sometime after lunch."

"I'm maintaining this svelte figure by living on caffeine, air, and a high degree of anxiety. Later, when I feel truly loved, I will relax and start to eat until I'm roughly twice my current size. Then, I'll demand constant affirmation that you love my new figure as much as you ever loved that earlier one."


Silly silly me.....
You are all right of course, this is exactly how all woman are.
How could I ever read this and think it was bashing women and wives? :eek:

I must have been distracted by the breeze blowing up my skirt on my freshly shaven legs.

Silly silly women, how could you accuse your man (oops, sorry LADY :heehee:) of lying!

Come on girls fess up, you know all we ever talk about, all we ever think about in our pretty silly heads is how pretty our panties are (Pantie Threads WHOOO-HOOOO :daydreaming:) and who among us has the biggest nipples! :o

Sorry, I have to go and shave my back now.
Toodles!

[silhouette]

If you used to cross dress, and you don't anymore.. I don't think that needs to be brought up.
It's in the past and that's where it can stay.

If you're going to actively go around erasing evidence, that's different. Don't you think so?
Or when they ask you what you did last night, and you start back trying in your thoughts, trying to put together an answer bc you can't actually tell her. that's different too..


I've been lied to in a relationship. It sucked.. it felt like i got tricked.
This girl pretended to have a lot of will power.. it gained my respect. She lost all this weight and was working out...

Well, turns out she was just bulimic! That's not power, it's a disease.
She tricked me into gaining my respect, and she wasn't the woman that I thought I loved. No, she was just another weak minded bitch like the rest of them.

Moving on... I tell you one thing I hate.. i hate when ppl get married and then immediately let themselves go.

Yeah a lot of ppl do it, but I wouldn't stay with someone like that. It's disgusting.
I understand getting old is one thing, but taking someone for granted is another.

You know what I don't understand?

Why would any of you want to be with someone that doesn't accept you, or cross dressers to begin with????
You come on here, complaining about bigotry, then you go home and sleep with a bigot??? Makes me roll my eyes.

If someone cannot love and accept me for who I am, then they're not worth my time.
Maybe I just have some actual self esteem?? I don't understand some of you girls at all

[Nicole Erin]

Ahh, the single life.
I am not fibbing when I say it is peaceful. No one there razzing me about how I dress, sleep, live, etc.

I think sometimes, the very act of getting married is a lie. You think you want to spend the rest of your life with this ONE person but sooner or later, people decide they want their lives back. My ex and I both did.

And yeah people do often BS their way into situations. I mean who among us has not "embellished" a resume or interview to get a job? Who has not polished their appearance or act to get in bed with someone? Who hasn't told their kids "Santa is watching"....

And with the CD thing - gyod it is NOT that big a deal! First time I told my wife about it, she liked freaked out and was acting like we needed to see a preacher or whatever.. course a few months later when it came up again she was not so weird about it but that is a story for another day...

Marriage is a bad idea in general. Young men are pressured into it, then when it fails, the state liberally gives the ex wife most of the money, the kids, the house, ex, and the ex husband is expected to pay for a lot of it, depending on his income.

[JulieK1980]

and who among us has the biggest nipples! :o

"I have nipples Gregg, could you milk me?" -Jack Burns (Meet the Parents)

[BRANDYJ]

I think we are sometimes confusing being 100% open about ourselves with what some would call lying. Count me as one of those that thought by getting married my desire to crossdress would go away. WRONG. But throughout my 5 year marriage I kept it hidden and for the most part, repressed. My first wife never knew I was a CD. My second wife was the first person I ever shared that deep dark secret with. She died after 10 good years together. I do not lie to my present SO and never will. I know with her feelings about lying, it would be the end of our relationship. Fortunately, I have no secrets from her.

[Momarie]

JodyCD:

"I have nipples Gregg, could you milk me?" -Jack Burns (Meet the Parents)

You funny.....:worship:

We wike u.....:mooning:

[JulieK1980]

@JamieTG's~SO, Glad to have amused! :D

[Pythos]

ALAAAAAAAAARMMMMM (RIIIIIIIIIIIIING) Flood tanks!!!! LEt's get out of here chief!!!!!

Yea. I am staying clear of this one like a submarine would steer clear of a destroyer!!!

[Eryn]

I think sometimes, the very act of getting married is a lie. You think you want to spend the rest of your life with this ONE person but sooner or later, people decide they want their lives back. My ex and I both did.

And that is a data set of....................ummm.......................2 .

You didn't simply "think" you wanted to spend the rest of your life with someone, you vowed that you would. If you later reneged on that vow then you lied, not the marriage.

A lot of us take those vows much more seriously than that.

[Alice Torn]

Twould have been a whole lot less marriages in this wicked old world, if people told the good, bad, and ugly, before marriage. Our world has thrived on lying, or putting up the "false self". I have been to so many weddings, and so many are divorced now! There are no "knights in shining armor", or Prince Charmings", or "Cinderellas". We may be charming, smart, nice, and sexy, but, we all tend to hide the dark side. John Bradshaw used to talk about this. I don't think i have been married, because i was too honest about my faults. "Confidence" is what women want in a man. But, confidence can be deceptive. We all ought to be able to be real, tell the good, bad, and ugly about ourselves, and still be accepted, and to be married. Most everyone waits until after marriage, for the hid stuff to come out. The world is living a lot of lies!

[Phoebe P.]

Spoken like a bitter angry little man.
Why is this kind of woman/wife bashing allowed on here?
Jamie, this seems like the pot calling the kettle black. Good grief! Freedom of speech is allowed in this country and certainly on this website. Just b/c someone doesn't see eye to eye with you and has a different viewpoint is no reason to call for them to be silenced...


"I sometimes poop, and it smells really bad." (Seriously, I've heard of women who won't poop within a mile of their boyfriend.)

"During my period, I can be as bitchy as I like, and you're supposed to just say 'yes ma'am,' and bring me chocolate."

"I have no sense of humor and generally hate life until sometime after lunch."

"I'm maintaining this svelte figure by living on caffeine, air, and a high degree of anxiety. Later, when I feel truly loved, I will relax and start to eat until I'm roughly twice my current size. Then, I'll demand constant affirmation that you love my new figure as much as you ever loved that earlier one."


Silly silly me.....
You are all right of course, this is exactly how all woman are.
How could I ever read this and think it was bashing women and wives? :eek:

I must have been distracted by the breeze blowing up my skirt on my freshly shaven legs.

Silly silly women, how could you accuse your man (oops, sorry LADY :heehee:) of lying!

Come on girls fess up, you know all we ever talk about, all we ever think about in our pretty silly heads is how pretty our panties are (Pantie Threads WHOOO-HOOOO :daydreaming:) and who among us has the biggest nipples! :o

Sorry, I have to go and shave my back now.
Toodles!

Yikes! What happened to you and why are you so bitter when none of this pertains to you? Did anyone address you directly? If this bothers you please move on to the next post and kindly remove your claws. People are free to express their opinions and shouldn't be subject to character attacks... Lighten up...


.....and crossdressing is a hell of a lot more serious item than those that you listed.

It's clothes and makeup. Unless the person wishes to transition that's all it is. Why does everything have to be so serious?

Sophie, I love ya', but speaking from experience, post topics like this in the Private GM Forum... :battingeyelashes:

[Debglam]

I hate it when things get ugly like this! Frankly, this "CD'ing is lying/not lying" does not have an answer. It is going to be different in every situation/relationship.

Generally speaking, I am in the honesty camp, but I get the impression that some SO's REALLY don't get what it is like to have grown up as a CD or with transgender feelings. You are a small boy 6, 7, 8 years old and you are confronted with circumstances that a) you have no control over; b) everyone and everything tells you it is bad, wrong, evil, etc.; and c) you can't discuss with ANYONE. (Imagine being a young girl at that age and being confronted by something that monumental that you can't even discuss with your mom or dad.) As the years go by, you bury these feelings deeper and deeper and deeper. This goes on your entire life. Maybe you have tried to tell someone about this and you have been ridiculed, abandoned, etc. Or worse. Like I said, I think honesty is the best policy but I think that if your husband comes out to you after marriage or worse, you discover it yourself, you need to think about this. It is not a pass but you need to think about it.

To the GG's, thanks again for your posts. I think that the key is we really need to make an effort to understand each other. I know for me, as a crossdresser, I have a hard time seeing what the big deal is BUT I sure get the fact that whether I get it or not, it IS a big deal for some of you and that is enough.

[Maria in heels]

Sophie...I just LOVE THIS LIST ! it is so so true...

[Eryn]

It's clothes and makeup. Unless the person wishes to transition that's all it is. Why does everything have to be so serious?

This is true for SOs of CDers, but I believe in Sandra's case it was quite a lot more. You might want to cut her a little slack.


...I get the impression that some SO's REALLY don't get what it is like to have grown up as a CD or with transgender feelings. You are a small boy 6, 7, 8 years old and you are confronted with circumstances that a) you have no control over; b) everyone and everything tells you it is bad, wrong, evil, etc.; and c) you can't discuss with ANYONE. (Imagine being a young girl at that age and being confronted by something that monumental that you can even discuss with your mom or dad.) As the years go by, you bury these feelings deeper and deeper and deeper. This goes on your entire life. Maybe you have tried to tell someone about this and you have been ridiculed, abandoned, etc. Or worse. Like I said, I think honesty is the best policy but I think that if your husband comes out to you after marriage or worse, you discover it yourself, you need to think about this....

Deb, you've hit the nail on the head. Sometimes this stuff gets buried so deep that it doesn't see the light of day until someone is in their 40s, or 50s. In the meantime, life happens, including marriages. When CDing does emerge, the guilt and revulsion are still there which doesn't exactly assist communication with one's spouse. Remember, men are not trained to be communicators. We're conditioned to be competitive and to not show any possible weakness.

I cannot think of a mirroring situation of the same emotional severity that affects GGs. That makes it very difficult to explain the full magnitude of the concept to them.

[Nigella]

Just my tuppence worth here,

If you have been able to suppress the desire to dress after you have got married and have not put on any clothing since that day, then no you can't be lying, it is a part of your life that is over and TBPH has no bearing on your future life, just as anything from your SO's past which has no bearing on your life together, is irrelevant.

However, if you have not been able to suppress the desire or the desire returns after a while and you don't share this aspect with your SO, then yes you are lying.

Quite often we hear that she didn't tell me this, or that, just as I have not told her this or that. If it will not affect your relationship, then why should you need to share it, if it will affect your relationship, then of course you should tell.

We all have a few skeletons in the closet, Sandra knows about a part of my past, but not the whole story, why, simply because I knew that she would have found out one way or another, simply because it is something I cannot hide. Why not the whole story, well simple again, it won't happen again and it has no impact on us as a couple.

So as a final note, think about what you are hiding, will it have an impact on your relationship if it came into the open? Are you prepared to take the consequences if it has an impact but you have kept it quite. Of course this goes for both sides in the relationship. :)

[Sophie86]

Spoken like a bitter angry little man.
Why is this kind of woman/wife bashing allowed on here?

Seriously? I sound bitter? I have a great relationship with my wife. I don't have anything to be bitter about. I'm just a little tired of having fingers wagged in my face about the fact that I didn't tell my wife when we got together that I occasionally liked to put on women's clothing. She's never chided me about it once, so I'm amazed that other women make such a big deal over it. I don't think it's the lying that's got them bunched. I think if they could in any way be okay with the activity itself, the lying would just be "oh well." The truth is, they're squicked out by guys who dress like women, and they believe that their husbands sold them a faulty set of goods. That's fine if that's how they feel, but why would they want to hang out here and go on and on about how betrayed they feel? We understand from a very early age that acceptance is conditional upon us keeping this facet of ourselves a deep dark secret. That message comes at us from every direction. We consider it a matter of self-preservation that we not tell our secret. When we finally do tell that person closest to us-- or they find it out on their own--there are two ways they can react. Either it's "Oh honey, you never had to keep this a secret. I love you just like you are;" or it's, "OMFG!! All these years of lying!!! You've BETRAYED me!!!" The latter sends the message loud and clear: "If I had known this, I never would have married you." Well okay. But don't sit here and pretend it's about the lying.


.....and crossdressing is a hell of a lot more serious item than those that you listed.

Crossdressing is more serious, or being transsexual is more serious? If you do mean crossdressing, then why is it a serious problem?

[Nigella]

As has been said before, this topic is done on a regular basis and there will never be a common ground.

There will be those, like me who believes that it is right to share this aspect of my life because it has an impact on our life together.

There will be those, who like the OP believes that is is not a topic worth discussing with their SO.

OK so who is right, well no-one and everyone, we all do things which we feel is right for our own situation. So why not call a truce, stop the war and all live in peace, Oh Damn, I forgot we are the human race, we all want to be in the right, we all want to make sure our own opinion is the one that is shouted the loudest.

On a final note, at least for now, get over it and move on.

[Sophie86]

From reading this forum and from listening to my SO, it would seem that a number of CDers didn't fully realize their needs until well into their marriages. Perhaps at a young age they thought about dressing, experimented with it, and considered it a passing fantasy or phase, or felt so guilty about it they completely submerged their urges for years. I wouldn't expect my SO to divulge this to me before getting married--this is something that would be very personal, and if he thought that he'd "gotten rid" of the desires and would have no more need to dress or think about dressing, then why would he tell me about it? I don't consider it lying or deceitful. When my SO did tell me about the dressing, it was before she joined this forum and before she started purchasing things. I felt unhappy about the fact that she'd been thinking about these things (and occasionally acting on them) before telling me, but I did not feel betrayed or lied to. It was more that I felt bad that she felt guilty and had kept this pain to herself.

Thank you for understanding, Mimi. Your SO is very lucky to have you.


Read the entire OP and you'll see genuine examples of both genders concealing possible downsides (and home truths) to their personality, all put in quite a humorous manner.

Thank you for noticing that I was trying to be humorous with it. The stereotypes I used were taken from pretty much every stand up comedian that I've heard in the past 30 years. I was not describing my relationship with my wife, although a few of those things apply to some degree. The main thing is that none of them were deal breakers. It's been a process of discovery, but we've always been committed to dealing with problems as they come up and moving forward together.


There will be those, who like the OP believes that is is not a topic worth discussing with their SO.

That's not a fair characterization of what I said.

Here's the point: This aspect of myself was such a deep dark secret that it would have required a good amount of torture to drag it out of me. I wasn't just hiding it from my wife, I was hiding it from everyone. My dad did his best to brow beat every bit of femininity out of me. Instead, I buried it, and hid it from everyone but myself. Everyone. My wife and I had been married for 14 years when I finally told her. Instead of being outraged that I had hid it all those years, she was glad that I trusted her enough to finally tell her. That's the difference in attitude that I'm talking about. I believe that women who obsess over the lying are really upset about the dressing itself, and are using the lying as a more acceptable thing to beat us up over. That's my position right there, all humor aside.

[Sandra]

It's clothes and makeup. Unless the person wishes to transition that's all it is. Why does everything have to be so serious?

Sophie, I love ya', but speaking from experience, post topics like this in the Private GM Forum...

I'll tell you why it's serious because for most of the wives they have had the bottom drop out of their world, so don't go telling everyone it's clothes and makeup it goes a heck of a lot deeper. If you think that cding is not serious for any SO then try asking some of the SO's on here about how serious it is.

As for posting this in the GM yeah right, it appears that some members on here just don't like people disagreeing with them, so Phoebe is that why you suggested this?.


This is true for SOs of CDers, but I believe in Sandra's case it was quite a lot more. You might want to cut her a little slack.


It's ok Eryn :) Yes Nigella is not a cder she is infact a TS and I am 110% with her on this path we are walking together. I was just trying to get a point across but yet again it was trivialised.



Crossdressing is more serious, or being transsexual is more serious? If you do mean crossdressing, then why is it a serious problem?

Firstly I did not say it was a problem I said it was more serious. Both are serious and keeping an SO in the dark about either is wrong.

[arbon]

I did lie and it was painful for my partner. And I agree with her, it was wrong. It is scary to be honest about being CD or TG but I do believe it is the best way if you really do care for the other person. Sooner or later it is all most always going to come out anyway.

[Momarie]

Yes Yes Yes, I get it....

I am the big bad bitter Barbie bitch. :doll:

I am just a silly SO and even worse a GG.

So flame away....

Oh...by the way, my sweet Jim is wonderful, he has suffered and struggled his whole life.
I adore him just the way he is.

Many of you understand I feel very protective of GG SO's who have yet to find thier voice.
They are just beginning this journey....and it is not easy for them.
Because despite your mass of rationalzations....it IS more than JUST clothes.
When I read absolute sterotypical crap....I respond on thier behalf.

So again, flame away. :mooning:

[Eryn]

Many of you understand I feel very protective of GG SO's who have yet to find thier voice.
They are just beginning this journey....and it is not easy for them.
Because despite your mass of rationalzations....it IS more than JUST clothes.
When I read absolute sterotypical crap....I respond on thier behalf.

Sorry, no flames here. It would be easier to carry on a reasonable discussion if you actually addressed the issues we brought up rather than simply dismissing them out of hand. I went to considerable effort here and in other threads to express the years of pain, guilt, and self-recrimination that I went through but you simply dismissed it as a "mass of rationalizations." Are your feelings the only ones that count here?

It might be more illuminating if you gave us your thoughts on the following:

Exactly why is it more than just clothes?

Why is not discussing an unpleasant topic considering lying?

Does not discussing the unpleasant topic mean that a CDer does not truly love his wife?

In addition, Sandra has said that the revelation of CDing was akin to "the bottom dropping out" of the SO's life. Perhaps you can give us some insight as to why CDing carries such great impact when compared to other common deceptions that husbands inflict upon their wives. For example, a husband might say that he has to work overtime on Wednesdays and is actually having a few drinks with his buddies at a bowling alley. Lying to his wife about this is certainly deceitful and wrong and in fact he is putting himself in more danger with this act than he would by privately CDing. However, I have a feeling that revelation of the CDing would have a much greater impact on the wife than revelation of the illicit drinking and bowling. Why do you think this is?

[Sophie86]

I did lie and it was painful for my partner. And I agree with her, it was wrong. It is scary to be honest about being CD or TG but I do believe it is the best way if you really do care for the other person. Sooner or later it is all most always going to come out anyway.

If someone asked me my advice, I would say go ahead and tell your wife before getting married. You're right. Sooner or later, it will most likely come out, and it's best to know where she stands beforehand. That's the ideal. We both know why we fell short of that ideal, though, and how hard we've had to struggle just to be honest with ourselves, much less anyone else.

[Anna B]

If someone asked me my advice, I would say go ahead and tell your wife before getting married. You're right. Sooner or later, it will most likely come out, and it's best to know where she stands beforehand. That's the ideal. We both know why we fell short of that ideal, though, and how hard we've had to struggle just to be honest with ourselves, much less anyone else.


What about if you've been married for 35+ years? How do you do it then? Please ?

Anna x

[Sophie86]

What about if you've been married for 35+ years? How do you do it then? Please ?

Anna x

I have no idea. We had been married 14 yrs when I told my wife. Her attitude towards all things sexual was undergoing a major change for the better, so it was the perfect time for me to talk to her about it. She has told me that if I had been honest with her at the beginning, it might have freaked her out too much, so waiting turned out to be for the best. Of course, if she had never gone through that change, I might still be in the closet with her, and that would really suck. So I still agree that telling up front is the ideal thing to do. I was just fortunate that things worked out well for me. I wish you luck, and wish I had some good advice for you, but I don't know how to approach the subject cold like that.

[Eryn]

What about if you've been married for 35+ years? How do you do it then? Please ?

After 35+ years I'd expect that your marriage is pretty stable. There have been a few potholes in the road of life and this one is really no different.

Is this something that is really bothering you? Is it affecting your relationship? I'm sure that it is. Let's go with that.

The approach I suggest is to wait until you are in private, relaxed, and have a lot of free time for discussion. This is not something you wish to combine with another crisis! When the time is right, you simply say:

"Dear, I have something that is really bothering me and I would like to discuss it with you."

If she is a caring person, this will warn her that something important is at hand and will put her in the mindset to be helpful.

Now the ball is certainly in your court. Be honest and use simple language, not jargon. Don't say "I'm a crossdresser" because she may not know exactly what that means. Say "I sometimes, when nobody else is around, like to wear women's clothing." Be ready to answer the Big Questions. Remind her that you love her, have always loved her, and will continue to love her, no matter what happens. After you have your say, give time for her thoughts. She may have a lot, she may have none. It's likely that she will need considerable time to fully assimilate the concept Hold her and give her reassurance.

That's the start. From there you have to play it as it goes. At this point, if you are tempted to withhold anything remember how hard it was to start this conversation. Put it all on the table.

That's pretty much how I would have played it in a perfect world. I did pretty much this, but with a few stumbles along the way. Learn from my errors.

[Momarie]

Sorry, no flames here. It would be easier to carry on a reasonable discussion if you actually addressed the issues we brought up rather than simply dismissing them out of hand. I went to considerable effort here and in other threads to express the years of pain, guilt, and self-recrimination that I went through but you simply dismissed it as a "mass of rationalizations." Are your feelings the only ones that count here?

Eryn,
Perhaps if you had read mine and many other GG's posts, you would realize how GGs and thier feelings are routinely dismissed around here.
It's rich to accuse us of that.
How many times have GGs spilled thier guts in heartfelt painful posts, only to have thier pain diminished and ignored?
Yet you clamor for a "reasonable discussion"....in such a dismissive manner.

You are not the only one to have ever shed a tear dear.

[Pythos]

I'll tell you why it's serious because for most of the wives they have had the bottom drop out of their world, so don't go telling everyone it's clothes and makeup it goes a heck of a lot deeper. If you think that cding is not serious for any SO then try asking some of the SO's on here about how serious it is.

Sorry, but the way I see it, it is only serious because society deems it so. There are no health risks, no possibility of diseases being spread (unless the cding is done for reasons other than the clothing and styles). The fact is, for those like myself that just like the styles, would like more freedom in what I can wear for everyday life, and have no desire to attract someone under false pretenses, or have my sex changed, get kinda irked by being told "it is more than just the clothes". For me, that is exactly it. I would like to attract a female with an open mind that can see beyond or even fully accept the styles, and she herself have fun with gender presentation.

If society did not make it into such a taboo, MANY times worse than oh let's see...Adultery. (Do you think Newt would be still in government if he came out as a CD opposed to a stinking adulterer?) Cding would just be another fringe hobby, that hurts no one, or at most a personal style.

[Eryn]

Sorry, no flames here. It would be easier to carry on a reasonable discussion if you actually addressed the issues we brought up rather than simply dismissing them out of hand. I went to considerable effort here and in other threads to express the years of pain, guilt, and self-recrimination that I went through but you simply dismissed it as a "mass of rationalizations." Are your feelings the only ones that count here?

Eryn,
Perhaps if you had read mine and many other GG's posts, you would realize how GGs and thier feelings are routinely dismissed around here.
It's rich to accuse us of that.
How many times have GGs spilled thier guts in heartfelt painful posts, only to have thier pain diminished and ignored?
Yet you clammer for a "reasonable discussion"....in such a dismissive manner.

You are not the only one to have ever shed a tear dear.

No I am not. My wife shed quite a few with me and we each listened as best we could to the other. I've also read with interest many posts on this forum, both those by CDers and those by GGs. A lot of pain has been expressed. I do not believe that I have diminished or ignored anybody, either GG or CD. Please point out any post where I have done so and I will correct it immediately.

In this thread I was interested in your feelings about specific topics. Rather than simply accusing me of further clamoring, perhaps it would be better to rise above my clamor and discuss the topics.

Eryn

[Heather Daniels]

I've really wanted to stay out of this one, but I feel the need to throw my .02 worth in.
Phthos, it is a serious issue for SO's. I completely understand where they are coming from on this. It runs much deeper than just clothes or makeup for many cd's. Just read some of the posts in other threads. There are a multitude of different personalities represented here.
Some are content to simply wear what they wish to. Others go much further. This isn't a one size fits all problem, or issue.
On the other hand, I think that a lot of cd's here push the boundries more than any GG could tolerate. I also think that some of the GG's here are much too harsh on some things. This thread has actually raised my blood pressure with a few of the posts. I've sensed a lot of hostility towards cd's on this one. Before I start rambling because my thoughts aren't organized properly on this at the moment, let me say this.....................
I do not believe we have all lied and deceived our spouses by not telling them about this side of us before marriage.
Some, if not most of us truely believed that by getting married, this part of us would go away. We know now that it will be with us for all of our days. Except for the younger members here, please keep in mind that we were truely alone in this. We had no internet to discover that there were many others like us. We were honest to God, alone with our feelings. The guilt. The shame. The wondering what the hell was wrong with us. We have carried this burden with us since childhood.
I completely understand that it is not easy for a wife to find this out about her husband. Please try to understand what we have gone through for many many years. It's not easy on either side of the fence.

[Sandra]

In addition, Sandra has said that the revelation of CDing was akin to "the bottom dropping out" of the SO's life. Perhaps you can give us some insight as to why CDing carries such great impact when compared to other common deceptions that husbands inflict upon their wives. For example, a husband might say that he has to work overtime on Wednesdays and is actually having a few drinks with his buddies at a bowling alley. Lying to his wife about this is certainly deceitful and wrong and in fact he is putting himself in more danger with this act than he would by privately CDing. However, I have a feeling that revelation of the CDing would have a much greater impact on the wife than revelation of the illicit drinking and bowling. Why do you think this is?

IMO there is no difference between lying about the cding and the drinking etc, the depth of hurt will be dependent on the length of deceit. You cannot liken cding to wanting a night out with the lads, it is down to the frequency, the drinking may happen only once but in most cases not all, the cding is a heck of a lot more often.



I also think that some of the GG's here are much too harsh on some things. This thread has actually raised my blood pressure with a few of the posts. I've sensed a lot of hostility towards cd's on this one.

Care to elaborate?

[Sophie86]

Care to elaborate?

Speaking for myself, Sandra, I don't think any of your posts have been harsh. You simply have a different point of view, and you've expressed it well.

[BRANDYJ]

I've really wanted to stay out of this one, but I feel the need to throw my .02 worth in.
Phthos, it is a serious issue for SO's. I completely understand where they are coming from on this. It runs much deeper than just clothes or makeup for many cd's. Just read some of the posts in other threads. There are a multitude of different personalities represented here.
Some are content to simply wear what they wish to. Others go much further. This isn't a one size fits all problem, or issue.
On the other hand, I think that a lot of cd's here push tboundariesies more than any GG could tolerate. I also think that some of the GG's here are much too harsh on some things. This thread has actually raised my blood pressure with a few of the posts. I've sensed a lot of hostilito wardsrds cd's on this one. Before I start rambling because my thoughts aren't organized properly on this at the moment, let me say this.....................
I do not believe we have all lied and deceived our spouses by not telling them about this side of us before marriage.
Some, if not most otrulyruely believed that by getting married, this part of us would go away. We know now that it will be with us for all of our days. Except for the younger members here, please keep in mind that we trulyruely alone in this. We haINTERNETernet to discover that there were many others like us. We were honest to God, alone with our feelings. The guilt. The shame. The wondering what the hell was wrong with us. We have carried this burden with us since childhood.
I completely understand that it is not easy for a wife to find this out about her husband. Please try to understand what we have gone through for many many years. It's not easy on either side of the fence.

Very well said Heather.Jamie'ss GG said she is very protective of the GG's here. Well so am I. I do not like it when a GG comes here for advice or the share the way she feels and it istrivializedd or she is told to get over it. Seems that I can clearly see how the news of a husband being a CD can turn her world upside down. It simply is not anything she ever felt would be a part of her life and as much as we don't like it, the general public thinks it's sick or weird. So it's understandable that a wife that had neverdealtt with gender issues might feel the same way. I for one sure would like to see a little more empathyto wardss our most welcome and respected GG members. Many of the GG's that came here and have been here for awhile, now have a better understanding of us. They now know how hard it has to be for a man to tell his wife, especially if it is after many years of hiding it. Let's give them credit for several things. ONE: They came here to learn TWO: They care enough about their husband or SO to at least try to understand. Three: They shared their pain, there feelings and emotions with us. This alone may help one of our members to come out to his wife or SO. So I bow to our GG members and embrace them as being very special for simply being here.

[Sophie86]

Jamies GG said she is very protective of the GG's here. Well so am I. I do not like iot when a GG comes here for advice or the share the way she feels and it is trivaized or she is told to get over it.

My OP was in response to a thread in which a CD said that his wife had just found out and that she was not taking it very well. The responses he got were along the lines of: "You lied, and you betrayed her trust, so what did you expect? You've done a Very Bad Thing, and you deserve everything you get. If you crawl on your belly enough, maybe she will forgive you." I didn't find that very helpful or supportive, to put it mildly. It's like condemning Jews for trying to pass as Christian during the days of pogroms and ghettos. It's like condemning blacks for trying to pass as white in the segregationist South. Call them liars and accuse them of betraying their loved ones for trying to live a life free of oppression.

Of course, CDs are that way by choice, right? Choices they made somewhere between the ages of 1 and 13? It's just a behavior that they could choose to stop, and that's exactly what they believe themselves. They're going to get control over it any day now. It's not really who they are. They'll get it under control, and no one will be hurt by it. So why tell?


I for one sure would like to see a little more empathy towards our most welcome and respected GG members.

I respect and value GGs who respect and value us. Beating us over the head with the lies we told to protect ourselves is not a way to earn my respect.


It simply is not anything she ever felt would be a part of her life and as much as we don't like it, the general public thinks it's sick or weird.

That's really the issue. And the reason that we lied is the same reason that they are so terrified of anyone finding out what they married.

[Lorileah]

It's like condemning Jews for trying to pass as Christian during the days of pogroms and ghettos. It's like condemning blacks for trying to pass as white in the segregationist South. Call them liars and accuse them of betraying their loved ones for trying to live a life free of oppression.


Apples and oranges and your comparing them is highly offensive in my opinion. You are talking major oppression verses a singular case where you hide something from someone you supposedly love.

We are talking about hiding a part of your life from your spouse because YOU are afraid of what your spouse my do. don't even think you can use that analogy in context of societal oppression in our case. This is not about a life or death situation. It is not about losing your human or civil rights. It is really low to compare that with not telling your wife you like women's clothing and then sneaking around to do it.

It is the sneaking around and hiding it like a child that really makes it a lie. People here are saying that not telling is not a lie but an omission. If you had sex with 400 people before you got married and then didn't have sex with anyone but your wife after marriage, that would be an omission that may be allowed. If you had sex with 400 people and 200 of those were AFTER the wedding that would be a lie. If you marry a person so that you can stay in the country illegally and don't tell them...that is a lie. If you married a Christian and you were Jewish and you didn't tell them during the pogroms and you put their life at risk because of it, that is a lie. You would be putting yourself before another.

When you keep this a secret and the other person has built a life on what they think they see and know about you, you are effecting their lives as much or more than yours. It is selfish and arrogant. There is "equity" in relationships. Things that emotionally people put into these relationships, investments if you will, that by not disclosing things that could effect the relationship can cause it to fail. It sounds clinical and businesslike but relationships are built on trust and honesty. Look at the thread about how long people have been married. There are relationships of 20-40 years there. They have a lot at stake.

We are not supportive? Pot meet kettle. You don't trust or support your wife when you allow them to put in years and years while you hide your dressing. Think about how they would feel 20 years down the road. What else did you hide? Also think about what they "know" about transgendered people. Granted what they think they know is wrong in many cases but you don't even allow them the ability to learn.

If you want to compare our spouses with historical figures you don't have to go very far back when gays married because it was expected and was a good cover for them. But is wasn't fair to the spouse when they found out later.

Is not telling a lie? Well it ain't telling the truth and in a black and white world you decide what it is.

[silhouette]

Someone said it's just clothes and makeup. How is that a big deal?

Well, here's the break down.
Existentially, yes. You're right. It's just clothes and makeup.
When you start hiding it in a relationship, however, then psychologically it becomes a double life in the eyes of your spouse

If you're capable of living a double life, you're obviously a good liar and have shown a capacity to lie extensively and at length to those you love.
That's how it's more than just clothes and makeup.

Conversely, someone who takes the initiative to communicate with their spouse reveals many positive attributes.

[Eryn]

If you're capable of living a double life, you're obviously a good liar...

What double life? In my case I had, and continue to have a single life where I occasionally, and out of her notice, wore clothes and makeup. No lying was needed, as I limited my CDing to times when it did not affect my spouse at all. She had nothing to ask about and I didn't mention it.

When the compulsion got to the point where it was affecting me emotionally, and therefore affecting our marriage, I decided to have "the talk." Thank goodness my wife was capable of evaluating the situation reasonably and that she didn't give credence to those who seem to be focused on punishment and tearing marriages apart.

So, by your standards, I qualify both as a good liar and as having many positive attributes! :)

[Sophie86]

Apples and oranges and your comparing them is highly offensive in my opinion. You are talking major oppression verses a singular case where you hide something from someone you supposedly love.

Really? You don't consider that what transgender people experience qualifies as major oppression?


We are talking about hiding a part of your life from your spouse because YOU are afraid of what your spouse my do.

Right.


This is not about a life or death situation.

It's about being able to live a normal life, or being rejected and ostracized.

You understand that by telling one person, you make it possible for your secret to become generally known, right? Especially if that person freaks out, calls you a weirdo, and then goes around telling her friends about you. That's a worst case scenario, but it happens. How many years do you have to be with a person before you can believe without a doubt that she won't react that way?


It is really low to compare that with not telling your wife you like women's clothing and then sneaking around to do it.

So in addition to being an "angry bitter little man," now I'm low. :straightface:


People here are saying that not telling is not a lie but an omission.

Some people have said that, but I was not one of them. It is lying. At the very least, it will eventually involve one in a lie when she comes home and asks, "So how'd you spend your day?" and you have to tell her something other than the truth.

Telling the soldiers, "No, there are no Jews hiding in my attic," is also lying, btw.

Oh wait, I can't use that analogy. It's low.


When you keep this a secret and the other person has built a life on what they think they see and know about you, you are effecting their lives as much or more than yours.

Granted, but everything they see is the truth. It's not the complete truth, but it's not a lie either. It did not change who I am in any fundamental way. I was still the man who had been there with her through all kinds of rough times. I had been her shelter, and her shoulder to cry on. I was the guy who was in the delivery room when each of our two children were born. I was still me, and she had no problem seeing that. Zero.


You don't trust or support your wife when you allow them to put in years and years while you hide your dressing.

You're half right. I did not trust her. There was no one on the planet that I trusted with that secret. Before I met my wife, I was seeing another girl with whom I was madly in love. I would have done anything to win her. One night she asked me "What's your deepest darkest secret?" I told her flat out: "No one gets that." You see, I was TERRIFIED of ANYONE ever finding it out.

How many times does that have to be repeated?

As far as supporting her, you need to let my wife be the judge of whether I have supported her. You're not qualified to say.


If you want to compare our spouses with historical figures you don't have to go very far back when gays married because it was expected and was a good cover for them. But is wasn't fair to the spouse when they found out later.

Now you're comparing apples and oranges. I did not marry someone to whom I was not sexually attracted in order to hide my true sexual preference. I enjoy sex with women--a lot--and I particularly enjoy sex with my wife, a lot. As man and woman. So there's been no lying or fakery there.


Is not telling a lie? Well it ain't telling the truth and in a black and white world you decide what it is.

You definitely win that point, as far as I'm concerned, but you win it against someone else.

You're too smart not to understand all the reasons why people lie, and I can't believe that you're so unfeeling as not to have any sympathy for those reasons. Understand, I'm not talking about what we should advise people to do in the future. I'm all in favor of fessing up before marriage. I'm talking about how we should treat people who have lied. Whether we should judge them harshly or sympathetically, and also whether we should encourage SOs to get stuck in that condemnatory attitude. I don't see how it can help the situation at all.

[docrobbysherry]

:thumbsup:
However, I AM surprised you're still alive and that your thread is also, after 2 days here!:eek:

[Sophie86]

Someone said it's just clothes and makeup.

I don't agree that it's just clothes and makeup. There's also a psychological component, that element of femininity that we have inside of us. Ironically, I think that part is hidden in plain sight, and manifests itself in the very personality traits that they value in us.


If you're capable of living a double life, you're obviously a good liar and have shown a capacity to lie extensively and at length to those you love.

Only if that double life actually requires you to lie extensively. In my case, it required a good bit of hiding, but I think I only had to tell an outright lie twice in 13 years. I had been scrupulously honest about everything else, so my wife didn't find it difficult to understand that there was a difference between hiding an embarrassing secret and being a compulsive liar.



:thumbsup:
However, I AM surprised you're still alive and that your thread is also, after 2 days here!:eek:

lol! Thanks, Sherry! :)

[silhouette]

What double life? In my case I had, and continue to have a single life where I occasionally, and out of her notice, wore clothes and makeup. No lying was needed, as I limited my CDing to times when it did not affect my spouse at all. She had nothing to ask about and I didn't mention it.

When the compulsion got to the point where it was affecting me emotionally, and therefore affecting our marriage, I decided to have "the talk." Thank goodness my wife was capable of evaluating the situation reasonably and that she didn't give credence to those who seem to be focused on punishment and tearing marriages apart.

So, by your standards, I qualify both as a good liar and as having many positive attributes! :)

Well being a good liar doesn't make you a bad person..
i think if you're acting like someone else, going by another name, dressing in different clothes, and keeping it all a secret, that is a double life.

idk how ppl could feel otherwise, but everyone has their own ideas and perceptions


Only if that double life actually requires you to lie extensively. In my case, it required a good bit of hiding, but I think I only had to tell an outright lie twice in 13 years. I had been scrupulously honest about everything else, so my wife didn't find it difficult to understand that there was a difference between hiding an embarrassing secret and being a compulsive liar.

not to split hairs, i was saying it shows a 'capacity' to lie extensively, not that you've actually done it.
but anyone that can keep a secret for that long probably has some capacity to keep a lie going on for a long time too. just my opinion

[BRANDYJ]

Sophie86;2512278]I don't agree that it's just clothes and makeup. There's also a psychological component, that element of femininity that we have inside of us. Ironically, I think that part is hidden in plain sight, and manifests itself in the very personality traits that they value in us.


No it's far more then just clothes! Anyone that says that is fooling themselves... or lying to themselves.



Only if that double life actually requires you to lie extensively. In my case, it required a good bit of hiding, but I think I only had to tell an outright lie twice in 13 years. I had been scrupulously honest about everything else, so my wife didn't find it difficult to understand that there was a difference between hiding an embarrassing secret and being a compulsive liar.

I agree with you Sophie. I think there is a big difference in lying and having to hide something out of fear of either losing her or hurting her. Of course that hiding can and probably does lead to a whole bunch of little lies over time. I know I am blessed in that I never had to hide it from 2 wives and my present SO. I told them early on and had no problems because of it. I don't think I could ever be close to someone and have to hide it from them. I don't know ho those that hide it for years can do it. Hard for me to even think about.




lol! Thanks, Sherry! :)[/QUOTE]

[Nicole Erin]

One thing Sophie said that I do not agree with and would like to address -
it is when women lie by not mentioning that they poop and it smells really bad.

Ok, women do not poop. I like to pretend they don't and I am not going to let anyone ruin that fantasy. :D

[Lorileah]

Really? You don't consider that what transgender people experience qualifies as major oppression? nope not in the United States or most the western countries. Do you live in a country where wearing women's clothes will get you arrested, sent to prison or killed by the governing group?





It's about being able to live a normal life, or being rejected and ostracized. Your rules, you made them, you were the one who hid and didn't try to live your life. You let another's perceived reaction control how you lived. No one said you couldn't, you assumed you couldn't because you were afraid of the outcome. The outcome that would not have been an option if you had told the truth before you signed the contract


You understand that by telling one person, you make it possible for your secret to become generally known, right? Especially if that person freaks out, calls you a weirdo, and then goes around telling her friends about you. That's a worst case scenario, but it happens. How many years do you have to be with a person before you can believe without a doubt that she won't react that way? You don't, you do it before you live with them. You knew before you married (evidently) how she felt and you made a choice, you chose to give up the freedom you wanted to hide. This isn't a guessing game you bought into, it is your life and if you didn't know you should have found out. How many people think they can change the other? and how many have?




So in addition to being an "angry bitter little man," now I'm low. :straightface: No one said you were angry bitter or little.






Telling the soldiers, "No, there are no Jews hiding in my attic," is also lying, btw.

Oh wait, I can't use that analogy. It's low. You are correct, it is a lie and it was done to save a life. Their life versus your life. And it is still a bad analogy when your life was never in danger. Your comfort maybe, your pride, maybe but doubtful your wife would have threatened your life.




I was still the man who had been there with her through all kinds of rough times. I had been her shelter, and her shoulder to cry on. I was the guy who was in the delivery room when each of our two children were born. I was still me, and she had no problem seeing that. Zero. I am guessing you meant she didn't see that and that is her failure. There are several posts by me which make that very point. Love doesn't make judgements. Love doesn't make conditions. What many think of as love now is nothing more than control and comfort. I won't defend her if she didn't love your soul. If you really meant she had "no problem seeing that" then I guess I am confused...she accepted you and that would be a good thing




You're half right. I did not trust her. Nice relationship. See "love" comment above. and in regard to this, you wanted her to trust you and then felt betrayed when she found your "secret"? Trust is a two way street.
There was no one on the planet that I trusted with that secret. Before I met my wife, I was seeing another girl with whom I was madly in love. I would have done anything to win her. One night she asked me "What's your deepest darkest secret?" I told her flat out: "No one gets that." You see, I was TERRIFIED of ANYONE ever finding it out. see madly in "love". If you loved her and she loved you then you would not be terrified. When you don't believe in yourself, you won't believe anyone one else would believe in you either.






Now you're comparing apples and oranges. in a way yes except they married without considering how the woman would feel about their lack of attraction. They in affect stole that person's life to protect their own. Their were many who actually did tell the woman, and as long as both parties agree, no foul.
I did not marry someone to whom I was not sexually attracted in order to hide my true sexual preference. I enjoy sex with women--a lot--and I particularly enjoy sex with my wife, a lot. As man and woman. So there's been no lying or fakery there. yes there was. You really don't see how you took time from her life?




You're too smart not to understand all the reasons why people lie, and I can't believe that you're so unfeeling as not to have any sympathy for those reasons. Understand, I'm not talking about what we should advise people to do in the future. I'm all in favor of fessing up before marriage. I'm talking about how we should treat people who have lied. Whether we should judge them harshly or sympathetically, and also whether we should encourage SOs to get stuck in that condemnatory attitude. I don't see how it can help the situation at all. Most here are empathetic, most have sympathy for your feeling, many have sympathy for the offended party. If you are looking for someone to give you absolution, you are in the wrong place. If you want someone to say "I am sorry you had to go through that" you have plenty but if you want someone to say, "We are sorry and your spouse has no right to treat you that way" not gonna happen. You got burned, sorry it hurt.

We all know how it was before. We were told what we do is bad and wrong. I'll give an apple for an orange that 20 years ago hiding what your are was the only thing you could do. So comparing now to then is difficult. I was actually jealous that gays could go out and be seen and because I wasn't gay (in my mind...not the society) I could not. I don't remember when your marriage was. You will get tons of sympathy from people who went through what you did to try and appear "normal". But things have changed. Not seeing how this could hurt your spouse and why they would react in a negative way won't get you sympathy. It is not totally your fault. So you share the blame and you get some sympathy.

[Huntress]

I'm backin' Sophie the full 86 times. In the best of all cosmic grains of sand these various, & occasionally thoughtful mentations put to pen would be nothing more than the delicate nectar burps of a butterfly. BUT... someone has been eating only lavender & roses. Which leads to ones scatological emissions not stinking, unless you are a ruminant. I don't date cows. :devil: Sorted.

Huntress

[Sophie86]

nope not in the United States or most the western countries. Do you live in a country where wearing women's clothes will get you arrested, sent to prison or killed by the governing group?

I live in a country where you can lose your job, your friends, and the love of your family. I grew up at a time when rednecks thought it was fun to go to the local gay bar and beat up the drag queens. I had a father who used to tell me derisively, "You might make a man before your mother does."

To give you some context, I was born in 1963.

You've made some wrong assumptions about my situation in your replies. I realize you won't have followed all my past posts, and know my complete story, so let me give you a quick summary. I married in '87 and came out to my wife in '01. When I say that she had no problem seeing that I was still me, I mean that she was able to accept me for who I was without tears, and without any angst over "lost years." We are still together and approaching our 24th anniversary. That's why when I see SOs wringing their hands over The Betrayal, I don't understand their reaction. It is the complete opposite of what I got from my wife.


No one said you were angry bitter or little.

Yes, someone did. Go back to page one and scroll down.


And it is still a bad analogy when your life was never in danger. Your comfort maybe, your pride, maybe but doubtful your wife would have threatened your life.

No, my wife would not have threatened my life. You're missing the point. Gays, and TGs do get beaten up and murdered. They put up with a lot of harrassment from narrow minded people. I saw how effeminate guys were treated when I was growing up. It wasn't just a matter of a little "discomfort". Things are light years better today, but they are still not great, as evidenced by the rash of suicides we have had in recent years. Do you think those kids killed themselves because of their own independent judgment of what they were, or do you think it happened because of the message they were constantly getting from the people around them. Do you think pride is optional in a person's life? I don't. People need to feel proud of themselves. Protecting one's pride from outside battering has important survival value.


Nice relationship.

You still don't get it. You don't understand being so afraid of exposure that you're unwilling to trust ANYONE with your secret.


You really don't see how you took time from her life?

No, I don't, and neither does she. That's not at all how she looks at it. In fact, she has said before that if I had told her when we were younger it might have freaked her out, and caused her to run the other way, so she is GLAD that I kept the secret until she was mature enough to accept me. I am not trying to offer that as a reason for everyone to lie. It's a unique situation. I am just pointing out that there are other ways for a SO to look at the situation in retrospect.


If you are looking for someone to give you absolution, you are in the wrong place.

I don't need anyone's absolution. My lying was between me and my wife, and her opinion is the only one that counts. What I am trying to do is point out that we could try and be a little more understanding towards the guys who come here with their stories about being found out, and not rip them a new one for having lied.


If you want someone to say "I am sorry you had to go through that" you have plenty but if you want someone to say, "We are sorry and your spouse has no right to treat you that way" not gonna happen.

How about just not coming down on them for lying, and no telling them, sneeringly, "You got burned, sorry it hurt."

I understand that they have to be prepared to rebuild trust. By all means, explain that to them. Just do it with a little more kindness and sympathy for the reasons they felt it necessary to lie.


We all know how it was before. We were told what we do is bad and wrong. I'll give an apple for an orange that 20 years ago hiding what your are was the only thing you could do. So comparing now to then is difficult.

Twenty years ago, I was 28 years old and had been married four years. So are you now acknowledging that hiding what I was was the only thing I could do?


But things have changed.

Sure, for younger people. But many of the guys coming here have been married for 20-40 years. They started lying at a time when, as you say, "hiding what you are was the only thing you could do." Can we give them just a little sympathy, and maybe not so much with the judging harshly?

[Presh GG]

I'm afraid you still don't get it THAT WIFES ARE PEOPLE TOO with REAL feelings , real HEARTS and they deserve to go into a marriage knowing the person they are marrying. What is sooo hard to understand about ?

Lying hideing , deceipt is not ok, now or then.
And when this wife is no longer young and able to start over or CHOOSE to stay , some of you decide NOW is the time to "spring it on her " Come on , I've read that .......WOW , that's real love ,,, NOT.

Presh GG

[Sophie86]

Lying hideing , deceipt is not ok, now or then.

So you and your spouse have told all your family and friends then? I think that's wonderful. It's certainly the ideal way to go. A lot of couples are afraid of the repercussions, but kudos to you for having the courage to do that.


And when this wife is no longer young and able to start over or CHOOSE to stay

One can always make the choice to leave. It may not be easy, but it can be done. A woman should never feel like she is trapped in a loveless marriage with a defective husband, or vice versa.

[Sandra]

So you and your spouse have told all your family and friends then? I think that's wonderful. It's certainly the ideal way to go. A lot of couples are afraid of the repercussions, but kudos to you for having the courage to do that.



Obviously I cannot answer for Presh, but we have told family and friends. We told them when we was ready, when it may have had an impact on their lives....and don't anyone say that we lied and kept it a secret, it had nothing to do with them, we told them because we wanted to to.

[Sophie86]

Obviously I cannot answer for Presh, but we have told family and friends. We told them when we was ready, when it may have had an impact on their lives....and don't anyone say that we lied and kept it a secret, it had nothing to do with them, we told them because we wanted to to.

That's awesome. I've been on the fence about this, wondering just how much I want to come out with people, especially family. My wife is also a bit nervous about people at her work finding out. Her bosses are kind of conservative, and she's not sure how they would react. In the meantime, I've had to dissemble (i.e., lie) about why my body hair has disappeared, why I would dress up like a girl two Halloweens in a row, and why I am wearing nail polish... I guess if I kept everything completely hidden, I wouldn't have to actually lie, so long as I didn't make any mistakes. I would still be leading a double life though.

[Momarie]

Sophie86,

What is the real issue here?
This must deeply hurt and effect you or you wouldn't have kept going on in this thread....this must be a very personal painful topic for you.

I want to apologize for calling you a bitter, angry little man.

The stuff you wrote initially about gg's pooping and periods I found sublimally hateful to women...I didn't like it.

But there must be something deeper going on here....
I am asking you...why does this hurt you so much?

[suchacutie]

What an incredible thread. A couple of thoughts:

1) If a transgendered lifestyle was completely accepted in this country or elsewhere as routine, this thread wouldn't exist. The whole issue revolves around fear, and that certainly is oppression at some level. If none of us was closeted or felt it was essential to keep our transgenderism private, telling a potential spouse would not be an issue at all. The issues are 1) rejection, and 2) exposure. These two issues come right up against the issue of being honest with your potential spouse. They are diametrically opposed. Is if fair to keep this deeply-felt need of transgenderism from your potential spouse? I personally feel it is not fair. This issue does not need comparisons to other issues. This one, by and of itself, is important enough to stand alone as something that a potential spouse needs to know about us before agreeing to spend a lifetime together.

2) I do think that it is easier in 2011 than it was in, say, 1970 to explain transgenderism to a prospective spouse. I also think that it was, in 1970, common to believe that the crossdressing would stop after being married. There just was not the information available then as there is now, and I give a lot of slack to those who married 30 or 40 years ago and eventually come to the reality of transgenderism being here to stay, or even getting stronger with age. It is a very difficult situation and what our sisters need in this case is our support, and so do their SOs.

3) Lastly, life changes. Something that was not important 30 years ago can become important as time goes on. The key there is communication, but that requires coming to grips with ourselves and relaying that set of thoughts to our SOs constantly. This is hard, but it is important.

In general, this whole issue keeps coming back to the secretive nature of our transgenderism, and of the lack of acceptance in the world at large. As a result, the onus is on us to come to grips with our selves and our lifestyles. Unless we plan to live alone, our SOs must eventually come to understand who we are. This has to always be better sooner rather than later. Whether we give it the label of "lie" or not doesn't matter. What matters is that we should do everything in our power to build and maintain the loving trust of our spouse, as they do in us.

[Alice Torn]

I cannot answer for Sophie, but, why does it hurt so much? Two words- Guilt and shame! Society, and women are taught to despise a man wearing womens clothes, and not respect them. One thing is missing in this discussion. COMPASSION on both sides! A man may hide his hobby from his wife, out of fear of devastating her. A gg needs to have compassion on a mate , who is emotionally and mentally struggling with this "forbidden habit". Somehow, both parties need to have compassion, and education and understanding.

[Kaz]

Someone said it's just clothes and makeup. How is that a big deal?

Well, here's the break down.
Existentially, yes. You're right. It's just clothes and makeup.
When you start hiding it in a relationship, however, then psychologically it becomes a double life in the eyes of your spouse.

If you're capable of living a double life, you're obviously a good liar and have shown a capacity to lie extensively and at length to those you love.
That's how it's more than just clothes and makeup.

Conversely, someone who takes the initiative to communicate with their spouse reveals many positive attributes.

Sophie, yeah we all do stuff that our partners don't like. I have been married zillions of years and the reality is that I fart, snore etc.. because she tells me about it... she does.. I don't tell her about it. (I tried once!) ipso facto - she doesn't - I do. I have a bad throat/ear infection this weekend and I am the bad guy because I woke her at 6am snoring - like I couldn't breath any other way... so what do you really want here?

I am in her eyes a male stereotyope - I am supposed to like football, get pissed with my mates (but not on my own), climb on roofs and fix things and generally make the world happen, and of course bring on good pay checks and be able to fund all the emergencies...oh and by the way sex is off now because she has grown out of it, but just carry on with the usual day job, why is lack of sex a problem for you? It isn't for me so... When I got married I was a knight in shining armour... oh well! Except that she doesn't like alphamales until I am not one and then I am to blame for not being an alpha male...

So.. the last last thing she wants is to discover the CD side of my life... and when she does... the paranoia strikes... I am no longer the man she has come to hate, I am even worse... I have deceived her for years...

Jeez... I know this is a serious thread, but I have just talked myself into another world.... You cannot deceive unless you know... you cannot lie until you know... and what you know is not necessarily what others know... even when you know it.

[Sophie86]

What is the real issue here?

I have stated the real issue. If you've read all my responses, then you should know that it is just this: I saw a thread in which a CD was getting verbally beat up for having lied to his wife, and it irritated me. Thinking back to how calmly my wife responded to the revelation, I wondered why other women get so upset. It occurred to me that obsessing over the lying was one way to direct focus away from whether they are capable of accepting the CDing itself. They can just say it's because of the lying, and then they don't have to admit that it's really because they are disgusted by the CDing itself. I believe the woman has every right to simply say that CDing is a deal-breaker for her, and walk away from the marriage. I don't see anything productive, though, in having this intermediate stage in which she excoriates him for the years of deception, and he bends over backwards trying to apologize, only to find out that in the end, she just can't accept living with a crossdresser.

I can even understand having some trust issues, but I can't understand not being able to understand why we kept it a secret. The reason we lie to our spouses is the same reason that we lie to everyone else. It's the same reason why we have fought and struggled not to be what we are. It's also the same reason that, once they find out, our spouses don't want to share the news with the rest of the world--at least, not if they plan on staying with us.


This must deeply hurt and effect you or you wouldn't have kept going on in this thread....

I have a BA in Philosophy, which means that at one time I actually thought I wanted to argue for a living. Sometimes I still enjoy it, but I haven't yet found a way to make it pay the bills. If I had a penny for every word I've typed in this thread, though, I could go out and buy a new dress.


this must be a very personal painful topic for you.

As I've said, the lying was never an issue for my wife. So no, it's not a personal painful topic for me.


I want to apologize for calling you a bitter, angry little man.

Thank you.


The stuff you wrote initially about gg's pooping and periods I found sublimally hateful to women...I didn't like it.

I'm sorry. I was really just trying to be humorous. There was stuff in there about the things that guys do also, so I thought I was being even-handed. I didn't intend to single out the GGs, and I regret that you took it as me being hateful.


I am asking you...why does this hurt you so much?

It doesn't. I just felt really bad for that poor guy who was getting lambasted by everyone when what he needed were some kind words.

[Kaz]

Sophie,

I hope you got you wanted from this thread... it has certainly helped me in my journey! Take care xx

[Eryn]

I'm afraid you still don't get it THAT WIFES ARE PEOPLE TOO with REAL feelings , real HEARTS and they deserve to go into a marriage knowing the person they are marrying. What is sooo hard to understand about ?

Lying hideing , deceipt is not ok, now or then.
And when this wife is no longer young and able to start over or CHOOSE to stay , some of you decide NOW is the time to "spring it on her " Come on , I've read that .......WOW , that's real love ,,, NOT.

Presh GG

Presh, please understand that I am VERY aware that wives have feelings and hearts. You are, however, making the assumption that CDers are all entering into their marriages with full understanding of their CDing and maliciously misleading their spouses.

Many of us did not fully understand our own feelings at that point and it is unfair to label us liars.

Before I was married, I knew that I had an interest in women's things but other than trying on panties a few times (and feeling ashamed for it) I did not act on my feelings. I did not tell my wife about this because I considered it to be a very personal anomaly, like a woman might consider one of her breasts being larger than the other.

Unfortunately, marriage did not fix the situation as I hoped. In fact it made it worse, but at that point I was already committed, and I take my commitments seriously. I did the best I could, avoided anything CD related as much as I could, and tried to be the good husband my wife married. I submerged my feelings in other activities.

Go forward 20 years. Something happened, perhaps male menopause, perhaps my daughters growing up, or perhaps something I don't yet understand. In any case, I felt a greater need to explore CDing. It wasn't something I could bury any more or keep completely separate from my wife as it was affecting my mental state and therefore our relationship.

There was no specific moment at which this occurred. I knew that we should have "the talk" but before we did that I felt that I had to understand more about myself. I therefore passed up quite a number of opportunities and chose to keep my wife in the dark for the time being. I didn't do this to hurt my wife, I did it to maximize the chance of an outcome that would cause the least pain to us both.

Finally, after doing quite a bit of research I finally screwed up my courage and we went through the painful discussion. I feared the worst since I thought that she would automatically see me as a pervert as experience shows that many GGs do.

I shouldn't have feared this as my wife is a reasonable person, but fear is not always rational. She realized that my love for her had not changed. Rather than looking for ways to punish me, she helped me to understand myself better. I'm still the same guy she married, but I have a "new" interest that I can explore more freely. Rather than tearing us apart, this shared secret brought us closer together.

So, while I do feel responsible for keeping my wife in the dark for quite some time, the reason that I did so was compassionate. If I had sprung it upon her the moment that I had a inkling of being a CDer then both of us would have been ignorant and the learning curve would have been more difficult for us both. I am not the deceitful person that you and many other GGs seem to think that all CDers are if they fail to disclose before marriage for whatever reason.

I hope that you can grasp this. Every CDer has a different story because we are all different people. There are selfish, inconsiderate, lying CDers, but that really has little to do with CDing. If these people weren't CDers they would be equally selfish, inconsiderate, lying "normal" people.

I would also like to address your concept that CDers knowingly mislead our spouses until they are "no longer young and able to start over." Do you honestly believe that a 25-year-old groom is thinking "I've got her now, but I'll wait 20 years before I spring the CDing on her so she'll be trapped."? If so, you are vastly overestimating the long-term planning ability of twentysomethings!

Eryn

[Joanagreenleaf]

Eryn,

That is a great answer!

[BRANDYJ]

Eryn, Very well written. You made some very valid points. My guess is that the majority of CDers experienced the same thought process considering what little information was available back in 1970 or there abouts. Most of us had no idea what this whole dressing up thing was about. We might have heard the term transvestite by then, but that sounded so perverted to most of us. We had not heard terms like transgendered or even cross dresser back then. Those terms came much later and I suspect the INTERNET helped to at least bring those terms out to the public. For me, I started to find out I was not alone with this at age 27 when I told the first person I ever told, my then fiancée. I remember that being one of the hardest things I ever had to do up until then. She had the typical shock, fear nd pain first. That was followed by the usual questions; do you want a sex change,, are you gay etc. In a matter of a week or two, we were able to calmly talk about it. It was like we learned about it together since I did not have all the answers she wanted or needed. The point is, it was a totally different era then this new millennium.

[Momarie]

Sophie86,

Fine....I'm done.
I tried.

Just as you don't want :
".......in having this intermediate stage in which she excoriates him for the years of deception, and he bends over backwards trying to apologize, only to find out that in the end, she just can't accept living with a crossdresser."

I don't want to be your whipping girl for all you think is wrong in the world.

[kendra_gurl]

It seems after reading this thread that with very few exceptions after a cd reveals the "lie" or "omission" or the "secret" most of the wives are also more than willing to keep such lie omission or secret just that. They have the same fears of rejection from those they know and love as the husband did in the beginning.
Just an observation.

[Sophie86]

Eryn, Very well written.

I agree! It was very well written.


I tried.

:straightface:

[Babeba]

I am sooo glad that this thread moved on from some of the very hurtful and incendiary generalizations and venting in the first page or so... I didn't comment a few days ago because honestly, the way many of the first responses and to some extent the OP were phrased I found incredibly demoralizing and painful to read. I understand that many of these things get thrown into sexist humour and while that's not my cup of tea, I do try to leave others' humour alone; but to see so many all together made me feel very low, especially as I know very few women (if any) who fit any of those stereotypes. I really am not surprised that Momarie jumped in on behalf of GGs and although the words were not as I would have chosen, I appreciate her protective sentiments.

I think that to me, the important part about any close relationship is being able to really and truly know the person I am with - to lay myself bare and to have them laid bare for me, warts and all. I am not the type of person who deals very well with important omissions or lies. I could deal with omissions from friends but not lovers or spouses, because to me by the time I have reached that level of intimacy I hope to have known that already. But one thing this thread has really shown - with Eryn and with Sophie sharing their stories - that each and every person and relationship is different, and has a different path both in front of and behind them.

I had an interesting talk the other day with my best friend. He doesn't know about Crystal but our talk about cars switched into talking about transgenderism. He told me he would never be attracted to a crossdresser (any femininity really turns him off) so I asked him if he would be alright with ever having a relationship with a transman, or if he found out years later that his partner was actually born female and never told him how he would react... he would be fine with that, so basically the fundamental opposite about how I feel about trans issues and secrecy. Different people simply have different reactions sometimes; this is probably part of the reason why some spouses are okay right away and others have issues dealing with revelations years later.

Someone had brought up the idea that not telling about crossdressing would be like hiding going out bowling with the guys and drinking. I think this analogy could be taken a little further to be more accurate.
Let's say that a couple is part of a large religion that almost everyone in town is part of where the norm is to not drink; let's say they're practicing Mormons living in a small town in Utah or up in Southern Alberta. They grew up not drinking. They recognise that other people drink, and it's not a big deal, but they're Mormon and so they don't. Never have, and it wouldn't occur to them to try anything different. The wife (or the husband, if you prefer) didn't bring up alcohol before they got married because it's just not something that would occur to them to come up in their relationship as they thought their spouse was just like every other Mormon that way. Years down the line, the husband (or wife, in our second scenario) realises that his (or her) late night parties he thought he had got over long ago - that he (or she) thought settling down in marriage would cure - is something he(she) desires again... and starts to go out and drink occasionally. Over time, it gets to be more and more time and energy spent with partying while the spouse and kids are gone out of the house. Eventually the non-drinking spouse finds out - or the drinker confesses, and says they would like to spend more time exploring the nuances of bartending. What sort of reaction would that spouse have? Some might be horrified that it goes against their upbringing and everything they'd thought people should act like up until that point. Some might be bemused. Some might accept it more quickly. Some might feel like it was a betrayal for their spouse to hide their time drinking, and that this deception/omission changes their view of who their spouse truly is.

[Sophie86]

I had an interesting talk the other day with my best friend. He doesn't know about Crystal but our talk about cars switched into talking about transgenderism. He told me he would never be attracted to a crossdresser (any femininity really turns him off) so I asked him if he would be alright with ever having a relationship with a transman, or if he found out years later that his partner was actually born female and never told him how he would react... he would be fine with that, so basically the fundamental opposite about how I feel about trans issues and secrecy. Different people simply have different reactions sometimes; this is probably part of the reason why some spouses are okay right away and others have issues dealing with revelations years later.

Your friend, being gay, would probably empathize with a person who had felt the need to keep something about himself secret.

Why doesn't he know about Crystal?

[Alice Torn]

I wonder what Dr. Phil would say. Or, Dr. Laura, or Dr. Joye, or Roy Masters.

[sometimes_miss]

So yeah, lying... There are a lot of things you don't find out about your spouse until you've been married for awhile. Crossdressing is just one more item on the list, and it can be dealt with just like the others are.
Technically, it's not lying. You simply haven't told someone something. No one tells everyone everything. We all have things about ourselves that we don't broadcast because we think it's simply not important. Unfortunately, we don't get to be the one who determines what our spouse should think is or is not important, and as we can't read their minds (although many of them appear to think we should be able to, but only when they want us to). The problem comes when you don't tell them something that you know, that they should know. OTOH, I'm sure there are many of us who quit CD'ing, truly believing that we were finished with it. By the time we knew otherwise, it was too late.....then, what to do? Destroy the marriage intentionally? There is no easy answer to this question.

[Alice Torn]

One thing is for sure. Love and trust are fickle these days, and even more so, when Cding is an added factor.

[Babeba]

Your friend, being gay, would probably empathize with a person who had felt the need to keep something about himself secret.

Why doesn't he know about Crystal?

Because who knows about Crystal is really Crystal's choice, not mine. When my boyfriend told me about his crossdressing, he asked that I not share it with anyone and that isn't something I feel I have the right to second-guess.

You're right that my friend is quite empathetic about secrecy, but I wouldn't necessarily squash it down to one dimension like that. He's spent years volunteering (then later working for) a local distress/help line; he's a social worker going back to school to get his master's in teaching. I know many other people in the gay community I wouldn't trust with keeping anything a secret.

[Sophie86]

Because who knows about Crystal is really Crystal's choice, not mine. When my boyfriend told me about his crossdressing, he asked that I not share it with anyone and that isn't something I feel I have the right to second-guess.

Okay. That makes sense. How do you feel about him keeping it a secret, though? Do you approve, or would you rather he was open about it?

[joanna marie]

I'll tell you why it's serious because for most of the wives they have had the bottom drop out of their world, so don't go telling everyone it's clothes and makeup it goes a heck of a lot deeper. If you think that cding is not serious for any SO then try asking some of the SO's on here about how serious it is.

(pythos replied)

Sorry, but the way I see it, it is only serious because society deems it so. There are no health risks, no possibility of diseases being spread (unless the cding is done for reasons other than the clothing and styles). The fact is, for those like myself that just like the styles, would like more freedom in what I can wear for everyday life, and have no desire to attract someone under false pretenses, or have my sex changed, get kinda irked by being told "it is more than just the clothes". For me, that is exactly it. I would like to attract a female with an open mind that can see beyond or even fully accept the styles, and she herself have fun with gender presentation.

If society did not make it into such a taboo, MANY times worse than oh let's see...Adultery. (Do you think Newt would be still in government if he came out as a CD opposed to a stinking adulterer?) Cding would just be another fringe hobby, that hurts no one, or at most a personal style.


Very well said!
It is just clothes and make up or at the worst trying to experience the world from a female perspective


Sophie, yeah we all do stuff that our partners don't like. I have been married zillions of years and the reality is that I fart, snore etc.. because she tells me about it... she does.. I don't tell her about it. (I tried once!) ipso facto - she doesn't - I do. I have a bad throat/ear infection this weekend and I am the bad guy because I woke her at 6am snoring - like I couldn't breath any other way... so what do you really want here?

I am in her eyes a male stereotyope - I am supposed to like football, get pissed with my mates (but not on my own), climb on roofs and fix things and generally make the world happen, and of course bring on good pay checks and be able to fund all the emergencies...oh and by the way sex is off now because she has grown out of it, but just carry on with the usual day job, why is lack of sex a problem for you? It isn't for me so... When I got married I was a knight in shining armour... oh well! Except that she doesn't like alphamales until I am not one and then I am to blame for not being an alpha male...

So.. the last last thing she wants is to discover the CD side of my life... and when she does... the paranoia strikes... I am no longer the man she has come to hate, I am even worse... I have deceived her for years...

Kaz,
I didn't know that my wife had a twin sister living in the UK


You cannot deceive unless you know... you cannot lie until you know... and what you know is not necessarily what others know... even when you know it

I find that statement very profound, is it yours?

[Sandra]

It is just clothes and make up or at the worst trying to experience the world from a female perspective



:wall:
How many times it is not just the clothes or makeup...you really don't have a bloody clue!!!

[spotlessMind]

Vague reply to original post: The real liar would be someone who claims to have no secrets at all!

But specifically deciding if it's a good idea to tell your SO about your cross-dressing is probably a matter of circumstance. There are levels and degrees to consider. Some things are better left as a secret. Although, being "caught" might lead to a bigger mess than being open about it. I think that just re-establishes that it's circumstantial :)

I will say, however, that I think your comparisons are completely, 100% crazy lol. Finding out someone gets cranky and demanding during their time of month most likely won't have the same impact or influence on your relationship as finding out that your SO dresses up as the opposite sex. I don't LIKE this reality, but it's reality... it's common sense, ya know?

Also, there's a small but significant difference between "lying" and "lying by omission". Usually the latter is to spare another's feelings or one's own embarrassment. It's a judgement call.

[Eryn]

:wall:
How many times it is not just the clothes or makeup...you really don't have a bloody clue!!!

Sandra, for you it is not. For others it may be. It is possible for both levels of involvement to exist at the same time in different individuals. Let's keep the discussion civil, please.


...There are levels and degrees to consider. Some things are better left as a secret. Although, being "caught" might lead to a bigger mess than being open about it.

I'd say that the line is pretty clear here. If one's activities are extensive enough to present a danger of being caught, then it is time to figure out a way to talk about it.


Also, there's a small but significant difference between "lying" and "lying by omission". Usually the latter is to spare another's feelings or one's own embarrassment.

Yes, this applied to my own situation as well. Everyone routinely omits mentioning a number of things that might hurt our spouses and if the urge to CD exists only at very low levels that do not affect the spouse it is no different than any other issue.

[spotlessMind]

I'd say that the line is pretty clear here. If one's activities are extensive enough to present a danger of being caught, then it is time to figure out a way to talk about it.

While I do agree with this hypothetical, my point was to use degree as a circumstantial reference. This is why I put caught in quotations and used the word "might". I suppose "discovered" would be a more ideal word ;) One circumstance could be "caught" and another could be "discovered". Your point is likely true, though.

One person's stubbed toe is another person's landmine.

[joanna marie]

Sandra said


How many times it is not just the clothes or makeup...you really don't have a bloody clue!!!

All I meant by that comment was : the part of that objects, all society sees is the clothes and make up they don't know what the CDer feels wearing those clothes.What are they objecting to??????

So what is the big deal about a guy in a dress ? why is is not accepted ? It hurts no one and without societies objection to it there would be no pain inflicted on anyone.

It is the way that we are viewed that keeps us in the closet and hurts our loved ones.
The are a lot other objectionable male behaviors that are more accepted than crossdressing.

It has been said here before that women that are open minded to CDing are OK with it as long as it is not their SO or child

[NicoleScott]

It seems strange that many people who bemoan the fact that the outside world wants to see gender as all male or all female but insist it isn't like that for them as they are somewhere in between, see truth and lies as polar extremes with no middle ground.

Regarding "it's just clothes and makeup": For some of us it is. I would imagine that for those who dress and make up because of and to express their feminine identity, it's not just clothes and makeup. But there are those who just like the clothes. I can name names, but i won't, as you know who they are. Others, like me, derive pleasure from dressing and making up while never losing our male identities. Hard to believe there are those who still think we all dress because we just feel all femmy inside. For some of us, it is just about the clothes and makeup. And shoes, of course.

[Momarie]

Oh God, it would be so simple if it were just....panties and nighties, they are so sweet and easy.
And of course between these men and women there is rarely "I WANT A DIVORCE" discord. It's comfy and private. Little need for lying among friends and lovers, husbands and wives.

But more often than not, for so many....it is much much more....and that's where it gets complicated.

From the "I am more of a woman than you" to the underlying "hatred of women" to there "isn't" a woman to meet my standards, desires, dress code and weight requirements (despite child birth, menopause etc) to ever satisfy me, therefore I must invent my own femme, since women in real life have so miserably failed me.

It's not fair to you to be so unhappy and misunderstood...and not fair to the women who love you and had no idea of what you really struggle with....because the truth was so painful you felt you had to lie?

[shesadvl]

Oh God, it would be so simple if it were just....panties and nighties, they are so sweet and easy.
And of course between these men and women there is rarely "I WANT A DIVORCE" discord. It's comfy and private. Little need for lying among friends and lovers, husbands and wives.

But more often than not, for so many....it is much much more....and that's where it gets complicated.

From the "I am more of a woman than you" to the underlying "hatred of women" to there "isn't" a woman to meet my standards, desires, dress code and weight requirements (despite child birth, menopause etc) to ever satisfy me, therefore I must invent my own femme, since women in real life have so miserably failed me.

It's not fair to you to be so unhappy and misunderstood...and not fair to the women who love you and had no idea of what you really struggle with....because the truth was so painful you felt you had to lie?


:clap: :clap: :lol: ........................... but honey do you love me warts n all.... lol


I wonder what Dr. Phil would say. Or, Dr. Laura, or Dr. Joye, or Roy Masters.
im pretty sure they would say that there are a lot of them in this need their heads read,.... n a boot up the backside..into a form of reality, that Lying is lying no matter how long it has been going on, as it has a penchant of coming back to byte you all in yer butts,.... so honesty really does pay.... whether your hiding your CD'ing or not....then if you do love each other things can be worked through or you are able to make a sound decision of whether you want that relationship to go further, its all about “choices” given that im sure a lot will have made one that would’ve suited, and others would end up looking down another path ....... so in other words lying or hiding your dressing or whatever to keep someone you want in your life is just covering your arse. Is that fair “NO” As we all read in here the problems that the GG’s or even the CD’s end up having because someone wasn’t honest enough at the beginning of a relationship...... doesn’t take Einstein to figure that out.

I guess im one of the lucky GG's who knew way before I got into the relationship I have with CF.


=silhouette;2512131]
Someone said it's just clothes and makeup. How is that a big deal? Well, here's the break down. Existentially, yes. You're right. It's just clothes and makeup.
Since when has this been right helloooooooo ... its more then that,.. as I believe other GG’s and Sandra have mentioned... We know some of the CD’ers get it and some don’t.... but with your following comment i believe is to be absolutely correct.......

“When you start hiding it in a relationship, however, then psychologically it becomes a double life in the eyes of your spouse If you're capable of living a double life, you're obviously a good liar and have shown a capacity to lie extensively and at length to those you love. That's how it's more than just clothes and makeup.”
This i totally agree with,
Conversely, someone who takes the initiative to communicate with their spouse reveals many positive attributes.
Those that communicate with their Partners and keep on the same page have much, and work at their relationships and cover the cding/or transient issues in the relationship. If you are married is this not meant to be a partnership and not to be hidden ... I don’t care how long the closet is....If you choose to be in there and only want your wife to know does she not have the right to know first hand before thou takes her hand in marriage.


I'm backin' Sophie the full 86 times. In the best of all cosmic grains of sand these various, & occasionally thoughtful mentations put to pen would be nothing more than the delicate nectar burps of a butterfly. BUT... someone has been eating only lavender & roses. Which leads to ones scatological emissions not stinking, unless you are a ruminant. I don't date cows. :devil: Sorted. Huntress

I am a power to believe its time that some of The CD’ers in this forum need to take responsibility for their actions, and be up front, honest, quit their tantrums, & just be responsible for their behaviour,.. and start talking to their partners on all levels calmly, & vice versa ,...because for every reaction there is an action, time to smell the roses and drink good coffee. Never mind the last comment of the above quote.
:eek: is that how we are seen my gawd:heehee::eek::battingeyelashes:


Technically, it's not lying. You simply haven't told someone something. No one tells everyone everything. There is nothing technical about lying, LYING IS LYING, or hiding and deceiving is the old adage “what a tangled web we weave when we deceive”

We all have things about ourselves that we don't broadcast because we think it's simply not important Unfortunately, we don't get to be the one who determines what our spouse should think is or is not important, How the heck can you think that CDing or gender issues is not important... wheres your head.???
as we can't read their minds (although many of them appear to think we should be able to, but only when they want us to).
If communication was used then you would know a mind set of your GG has/had im sure The problem comes when you don't tell them something that you know, that they should know.

OTOH, I'm sure there are many of us who quit CD'ing, truly believing that we were finished with it. By the time we knew otherwise, it was too late.....then, what to do? Destroy the marriage intentionally? There is no easy answer to this question. the last comment there is bang on and the answer is because you weren’t honest with your partner from the beginning.
AS for the quiting of the CDing how naive can some of you be..... it never goes away so what better could you have then,.. a partner or wife who understands right from the get go of who you are no matter your dress clothes is it not better to get to know the person and how and who they are and work from there, if you love each other it will work its way through all, its not easy, no matter what relationship you are in hetro cding, if you don’t keep on the same page walk equably talk, always without dissention of the other and lying deceit and cheating , hiding things... im damned sure if we as women did this we wouldn’t be the partners or women that support those of you today,

I do feel for those whose wives don’t understand and don’t want to know about your crossdressing ...Do you think its the way they are bought up religion in some cases yes,....
but if you were honest at the beginning do you think you would still be with your partner now???? Some are some aren’t....
I also know there are those who are members of the forum who have great wives, and do get the picture, also those members who support the GG’s that do come here to get answers.
I am an open book...always have been says it as i see it...and always in dialogue and been through a lot more then you know..... but my opinion is that we all make choices for ourselves its how we walk and talk them choices,.. as to how we grow...... lifes a journey don’t make it difficult with selfishness, tantrums and wanting your own way.... if us women behaved like that im sure the divorce rate would be way higher then it is..... live life love laugh and enjoy...no matter what dress you have on :p.

[Paige Winslow]

I'm happy to be truthful to people who don't over react.

[Nicole Erin]

what if the CD were to tell his SO that he was NOT down with OPP but in fact, was?

would she say - "You down with OPP?"
And the CD husband would say - "yeah you know me!"

I think this kind of honesty is important, especially cause imagine if they were driving in the car and the husband popped in his OPP disk and started grooving, even tho the wife was NOT down with OPP.

[Babeba]

Okay. That makes sense. How do you feel about him keeping it a secret, though? Do you approve, or would you rather he was open about it?

I am extremely happy with him not keeping it a secret from ME. I love it that our relationship is a partnership, where we are equally open with each other as much as possible and try to be on the same page with each other. There is no other relationship in life quite like that of a lover, a spouse, or a serious partner: you don't get to choose your parents, friends or roomates may be close and trusted but they're not as intimate, children have a different dynamic with their parents... but if your partner isn't someone you can totally be yourself with, do you really want that partner? If you don't want to let them in on the deep dark secrets that are current and important in your life, are they really your partner? If I were ever hit by a bus and Crystal moved on to a new partner she felt she could be serious with, I would be super disappointed (and incredibly surprised) if they didn't have 'the talk' quite early on.

My boyfriend has had some female stirrings in his life from the time he was very very small, and started dressing as a teenager - he's had a girly side to him since before I was born. I understand that for him, it's something very private which he doesn't share often. I'm not out to change that, it's a part of who he is. Most people in his life simply aren't ever going to be affected by his wearing women's clothing occasionally, or be in a position where they may feel like they ought to know each and every detail of his life and so that's fine for them to not know. It may also be fine if more people DID know, but that's really Crystal's call and not mine. After all, I haven't been living in his skin for the past umpteen years, so I really DON'T know what it's like to have to tell such a closely kept secret.

[shesadvl]

I'm happy to be truthful to people who don't over react.

If you are truthful,... why should one over react, you are upfront, thats kool....and good on you if you are up front and truthful....
if someone reacts then they are not getting the clear picture. Its all in how you communicate,that truth..... :battingeyelashes:


I am extremely happy with him not keeping it a secret from ME. I love it that our relationship is a partnership, where we are equally open with each other as much as possible and try to be on the same page with each other. There is no other relationship in life quite like that of a lover, a spouse, or a serious partner:

thats a prime example of what i mean. I had all that even before i got into my relationship. Its awesome and acceptance wasnt even an issue.... i didnt even flinch....

as for what sophie86 said about keeping the secret, if you are cding or transgendered and you are not out,.. then thats your wish/choice you made, to keep that from public if thats your call, but not to keep it from your partner or wife. definitely NOT

[gingerli]

REPLY TO LORILEAH POST #65

You're joking...............right?
Where exactly do you live, anyway?
It's obviously NOT the Denver in Colorado.
And how would I know this?
I read within the last month about a guy who was KILLED in one of that Denver's 'burbs because he was out and about dressed in female clothing and acting like a woman! By a guy who mistook him for an easy off the street booty call.

Not only that, but nearly every city and town in the U.S. (existing since before the 1970's) has on its books ordinances outlawing female impersonation. True...few, if any, of the laws are enforced anymore, but none have ever been struck from the laws or invalidated, either. Any man dressed in female clothing could, in fact, be arrested and sent to jail for impersonation, especially since the laws invariably leave it up to police officers to define the behavior situationally.

Quote: "No one said you were angry bitter or little." Go back and read reply #9 by momarie........musta been a blonde moment on your part.

Your comments about lying to save a life? Go ask the guy in the Denver suburb.....Oh wait, he's dead!

You state that Sophie "took time from her life." Yes, he did.....at the same time SHE was taking time from his life....it's a sharing thing. You obviously can't understand!

Never let facts.....interfere with the thought processes, either!

[NicoleScott]

AS for the quiting of the CDing how naive can some of you be..... it never goes away so what better could you have then,.. a partner or wife who understands right from the get go of who you are .....

Here's the answer: VERY naive. At a very young age, there was some unknown force that compelled us to try on some feminine item when given the opportunity. We liked it, and it continued, and grew stronger. When the hormones kicked in during the teen years, it got both more compelling and confusing. In a time before internet, men wearing earrings, or more socially accepted sex- and gender-crossing behaviors, we were alone with our drive to crossdress, as outing ourselves would have most certainly led to ridicule, punishment, or even treatment. Many of us grew up totally alone with our crossdressing, with the only source of information about it found in psychology books. Many, many of us thought (we didn't know better) that when we married, all that desire to crossdress would be directed to normal sexual relationship with the bride. We really, HONESTLY, thought it would go away, and therefore no need to tell. Seriously, don't you know that this is a very common thing, especially among the older (pre-information age) cd's? Who's being naive?
And, most all of us who had this experience agree that, knowing what we know now, it doesn't go away as we thought it would, and if we had it to over again, would reveal the crossdressing before marrying. But we were naive and didn't reveal. It was not lying, as we did not intend to deceive.

[Presh GG]

Ok , So all being fair, why , when you Did realise it wasn't going away ... or when it started getting stronger and stonger with more and more thoughts and desires , Why not THEN tell?

" Honey, I've always felt like this, But now I feel like this ?" Let me tell you what I'm going thru and what I'm thinking..."

This is what the GGs are talking about. OK so at 22 yrs, or 25 years you didn't know what was going on in your bodys or minds , but clearly at 30 ? When going out or comeing out [ to everybody BUT your spouse ] was a desire ?

Need coffee...
Presh GG

[GingerLeigh]

Saying something to "THE ONE" about your crossdressing before you commit to marriage looks good on paper, but I'm willing to bet it ends in disaster most of the time. Sure there will be that 0-5% that will be accepting, if you're lucky enough to find her but I bet most will push you away like you've got leprosy and they are likely to warn others of your "perversion". Besides, like many posters here that are from my generation say it, I thought it would go away or lessen once we had a steady relationship/got older. It was something I did, not something I was. Now I know I was wrong. It only got stronger and more involved. Unfortunately, that knowledge is too little too late. I'm in a relationship now, with children. I can't stop being what I am, but I must protect my family from the truth so a secret it must stay. It sucks, but that's my lot in life. The security of my marriage/relationship, the opinions of my children and their peers mean more to me than a clear conscience.

Lying is bad if it is self serving and malicious. My lie is neither. I hate lying, but this is my truth. Shame on me? Hate me for being a liar? Whatever. If you are in an accepting relationship where there is that kind of wiggle room for the real truth, good for you. I'm happy for you and maybe even a little envious. I'm willing to bet that for the majority of us this is not the case. To try to convince anyone here that revealing all is the best thing is both fool hearty and dangerous. We are all anonymous here, how can any of us know what's best for our families if we don't even know our real names?

Right or wrong, my decision doesn't mean I have no conscience nor does it make me a monster. I'm just a protective father and husband that thinks he's doing the right thing. If I get caught, well then I'll have to play those cards if and when it happens. I'm praying it never does, though I think she suspects anyway.


Ginger

[kendra_gurl]

Anthony Weiner Example

you all have seen the story by now.

He in what he thought was a private thing was doing something he did not intend to become public.

He was not Lying he was Secretly doing something he knew he should not do.

When it became public he started Lying and trying to cover it up. A very big and severe lie.

He has now admitted his cover up and it will most likely result in his resignation.

Those are the facts and I am not trying to state any opinion on his actions what it will do to his wife , family, or career.

The question as it pertains to this thread is Was his secret activity a lie? or just something he did not want to make public.

Again it has nothing to do with if one thinks what he was doing is right or wrong or what effects it would have on anyone else its about if keeping a secret from anyone is lying until someone knows about it and then you deny it?

[Sophie86]

but if your partner isn't someone you can totally be yourself with, do you really want that partner? If you don't want to let them in on the deep dark secrets that are current and important in your life, are they really your partner?

Speaking for myself, at the time I got married, I didn't want to be myself with myself, much less her. I was ashamed of being a crossdresser, and wanted to stop. Back then, it was a compulsion that I felt like I had no control over. It wasn't until about five years later, thanks to therapy, that I came to accept myself as I am. When that happened, I wanted to run straight home and talk to her about it. The only reason I didn't is because my therapist thought it might not be the best idea. I waited another nine years to tell her, and for about eight of those years my crossdressing actually stopped.


If I were ever hit by a bus and Crystal moved on to a new partner she felt she could be serious with, I would be super disappointed (and incredibly surprised) if they didn't have 'the talk' quite early on.

Given her level of self-knowledge, and experience with life, I think you would be right to be surprised.


After all, I haven't been living in his skin for the past umpteen years, so I really DON'T know what it's like to have to tell such a closely kept secret.

Well said. :)

[Lorileah]

REPLY TO LORILEAH POST #65

You're joking...............right?
Where exactly do you live, anyway?
It's obviously NOT the Denver in Colorado.
And how would I know this?
I read within the last month about a guy who was KILLED in one of that Denver's 'burbs because he was out and about dressed in female clothing and acting like a woman! By a guy who mistook him for an easy off the street booty call. I don't know what source you are reading and I am sure that not every murder in the metro area is reported but there have been no TG killings listed in Denver for years and the last TG murder (which is now a hate crime in Colorado) was in Greeley which is 50 miles away and more rural. So easy Trigger. There are some things about that crime that you may not know. It was a date where the victim did not (according to the offender) tell him she was TG (actually TS non-op non hormones if I remember correctly.). No matter where you live there will be an a** who will not like what you are doing and that is true of everything in daily life (we still have the occasional racial crime).


Not only that, but nearly every city and town in the U.S. (existing since before the 1970's) has on its books ordinances outlawing female impersonation. True...few, if any, of the laws are enforced anymore, but none have ever been struck from the laws or invalidated, either. Any man dressed in female clothing could, in fact, be arrested and sent to jail for impersonation, especially since the laws invariably leave it up to police officers to define the behavior situationally. they may be on the books but like sodomy laws they would be unenforceable. Our law officers here are for the most part (read there are always cowboys in every department) respectful and tolerant. If they aren't our current mayor and newly elected mayor have both vowed that those people will be looking for new employment.


Quote: "No one said you were angry bitter or little." Go back and read reply #9 by momarie........musta been a blonde moment on your part.

Since that statement was made in a reply directly to me I answered it as a if it was directed at me. You seem a little angry about all this


Your comments about lying to save a life? Go ask the guy in the Denver suburb.....Oh wait, he's dead!

Again don't know what you read but it wasn't a "guy" it was a transsexual person who was trying to live life as a woman but met a bad person.

Now if you are referring to the "Ms Puppy" murder the person who was suspected to be the murderer was a crossdresser not the victim. That was the last public murder involving a TG person in the metro area

Yes we all tend to focus on any crime when it involves one of our own


You state that Sophie "took time from her life." Yes, he did.....at the same time SHE was taking time from his life....it's a sharing thing. You obviously can't understand! I can't? Gee how fascinating since I have no perspective of being a transgendered person for as long as I can remember. How I worried about the society reaction to being transgendered in the 80's because everything that could be associated with the gay community was considered a hazard and a health risk and how even a hint that you might be a TG in some areas was enough to have you at least shunned and often become a victim of some sort of hate speech. You are right I can't understand any of that.

I can understand that the person who chose to share my life knew about me almost from the start, supported me and never once tried to change me. We lived our lives normally for 35 years. She never threatened to leave because of my clothing, my feelings or often my attitude. I didn't hide who I was from her and she full disclosure from the start. This is why our life worked out. Yes there are things both of us never told the other but they were not anything that effected our life together. That is the point to all this, if it effects your spouse, it should not be a secret. You want to hide from the rest of the world, that is your prerogative. What you do in your house is only of issue with those living in the house.

I don't feel sorry for those that hide for years and then whine when they come out and get blasted. I don't buy your "he lost part of his life in that time" argument. That was HIS choice, he didn't give her the chance to make a decision. I will go back to the investment. If you don't disclose everything to the person who is building their life on what you present to be rather than what you really are, you are lying


Never let facts.....interfere with the thought processes, either!

Was that thought out? If your dressing effects your life alone, do what you see fit. If it effects someone who has built a life around you, it is their right to know.

[Sandra]

Sandra, for you it is not. For others it may be. It is possible for both levels of involvement to exist at the same time in different individuals. Let's keep the discussion civil, please.



Eryn with all due respect...the majority of cders here just think it is just about the clothes and makeup, and when an SO finds out they are moaned about because they either can't/won't accept...for most SO's it goes a heck of a lot deeper than the clothes etc.

[Sophie86]

I don't feel sorry for those that hide for years and then whine when they come out and get blasted.

So you did things the right way, and anyone who screwed up deserves whatever they get in the way of verbal condemnation?

I think it's great that you did things the way you did, and that it worked out so well.

Can you imagine that someone else might have wanted to take the same path but was terrified that it would blow up in his face?

Can you imagine that other people might have been so at odds with themselves over it that they didn't want to own it at all?

Do you really not have any sympathy for people like that?

*****


Eryn with all due respect...the majority of cders here just think it is just about the clothes and makeup, and when an SO finds out they are moaned about because they either can't/won't accept...for most SO's it goes a heck of a lot deeper than the clothes etc.

In your view, what is the significance to SOs that makes it so much more than just clothes?

[Lorileah]

Do you really not have any sympathy for people like that?

No sympathy, I will have empathy. I understand what you are saying. It is a common human (especially male) reaction to say "I can fix this" or "I can ignore it". And I can understand how many men believe this is a sexual thing that having relations with a female will make it go away. Usually the first part of the relationship it does because you are so busy having fun you don't have time to think about it. That is just life. But there is a wonderful thing we have going here now. With the advent of the internet and sites similar to this (which are not as common as the ones reinforcing how TGism is a perversion and fetish) we can tell people now that they are 1) not alone and 2) that coming out earlier rather than later is a good thing.

So 1) you are not alone. Many before you and with you are fearful because they think they know how the spouse will react and in their minds delaying what they believe will happen will make it somehow better later when usually it makes it worse. and 2) you really see this as "poor you and not poor spouse" because poor you had to hide for all these years while your spouse went blissfully ignorant with her life and you really don't see how by waiting so long it is harder for her to grasp what you are. Think about it. She saw you two in twin bathtubs watching the sunset in your later years. When the stress and strife of living was finally going to be decreased and things would be her fairytale world....you bring this up. If you had brought this up earlier, she could have changed her long term ideals. Maybe even so that you were BOTH princesses living in the castle. But now she wonders, why could you not trust her? Is there more to this? So after 20 (30-50) years what if you want to go out on your own (and that is not even saying you may want reassignment). When you first started she may have been willing to work with you because it isn't that big a deal. Now she is looking at the prospect that things were never what she imagined they were. What if you did want to leave now? Could she survive? You honestly don't see that over all this time you have built a trust, a trust that she had built her future on, that even if you don't think it will harm the relationship, it plants that seed. That little seed. What more is he hiding? What else don't I know about him? No all you see is that YOU need sympathy for your fear. Sorry, I empathize with your fear. We all have that fear, the fear of rejection, the fear of losing what you THINK you have, the fear things won't work out like you planned. Your spouse has that fear too. When you are younger you have time and energy to rebuild hopes and dreams. After years of being together, you have a new fear. You fear being outted. She fears losing what she had. You were terrified? How do you think she feels after 20 years to find out you held a secret?

You cannot change what you have done in the past. You can help lead others to not make the same mistakes.






In your view, what is the significance to SOs that makes it so much more than just clothes? My idea is the hiding and keeping a secret makes it more than clothes. It makes it an issue of...shall we say...trust? If it was JUST clothes why didn't you bring it up earlier? I speak from a logical "male" side when I again bring up investment. She has a significant investment in your partnership. You withheld information. Information that may be pertinent to the success and profitability of the relationship. It isn't just the clothes. Clothes most women can live with. It is the emotional part of you not trusting her. Of you hiding something significant from her. You showing that her side of the bargain wasn't the same as yours. I won't say she doesn't have secrets, maybe she does. And possibly if she brought out those secrets you would know exactly how the SO's here feel.

And consider this, the SO's here are the ones who want to learn, who want to understand. You think you catch crap from the women here? Try the ones who go on other sites where they are told men are scum.

Sandra. I am sorry I stepped on your part of that question, please tell me if I am totally off base

[gingerli]

"I don't know what source you are reading and I am sure that not every murder in the metro area is reported but there have been no TG killings listed in Denver for years and the last TG murder (which is now a hate crime in Colorado) was in Greeley which is 50 miles away and more rural. So easy Trigger. There are some things about that crime that you may not know. It was a date where the victim did not (according to the offender) tell him she was TG (actually TS non-op non hormones if I remember correctly.). No matter where you live there will be an a** who will not like what you are doing and that is true of everything in daily life (we still have the occasional racial crime)."


First, please accept my humble apologies....my geography skills can tend to the horrendous, at least in reference to places I neither inhabit nor visit.
In my (admittedly feeble) defense, I haven't taken a geography class since the early 1960's and it was never my best subject to begin with.
Greeley is obviously NOT Denver nor a suburb!

That being said, however......

In YOUR original response to Sophie, you did NOT qualify your statements in respect to geo-social circumstance....To do so now in answer to MY response to your blanket statement is intellectually dishonest, under the best of interpretations. Whether in Greeley or in Denver, a person was murdered for impersonating a female...THAT is a fact! The perpetrator allegedly claims that he was not informed by the victim of the actual state of her genitalia.....What did the victim have to say about that? Oh, that's right, she's dead...she can't make any statements. Kinda like women who kill their SOs, then claim self-defense against alleged physical spousal abuse at trial.....who is it that can speak for the victim after the fact, except through hearsay, which, of course, is not admissible in a courtroom? And you claim that the victim was a non-op, non-hormone TS; how is she different physically from a passable CD?


"they may be on the books but like sodomy laws they would be unenforceable. Our law officers here are for the most part (read there are always cowboys in every department) respectful and tolerant. If they aren't our current mayor and newly elected mayor have both vowed that those people will be looking for new employment."

Here, your intellectual dishonesty really shines. All anti-sodomy laws in the country were vacated by the landmark Supreme Court of the U.S. June 2003 decision in re: Lawrence v. Texas. To my somewhat uncertain knowledge, no State's Supreme Court, much less SCOTUS, has ever nullified any anti-CD or -FI ordinances anywhere at any time. Thus, anti-sodomy laws ARE in fact unenforceable by the supreme law of the land; anti-impersonation laws COULD be enforced at any time, by anyone, for any reason. And as to the statements made by politicians: They ARE politicians, which means that they will say anything that helps get them elected or re-elected; fulfilling those promises is a whole 'nother thing altogether! Also, remember: these are the very same politicians who REFUSE to remove unenforced laws from the books, lest the politicians appear to be 'soft on crime!'



"Since that statement was made in a reply directly to me I answered it as a if it was directed at me. You seem a little angry about all this"

I'm not angry---maybe a little miffed, but more so at mis-directive statements. The phrase 'no one' does not have the same meaning as 'I';
don't believe me?...look it up!


"Again don't know what you read but it wasn't a "guy" it was a transsexual person who was trying to live life as a woman but met a bad person."

The word 'guy' was specifically chosen to evoke a particular emotive image, in direct contrast to the content in your blanket statements....my own provocative mis-statement. However, given your subsequent identification of the victim as a non-op, non-H, TG/S, I'm more than satisfied that my description is far more accurate than any you've proffered. There is NO constructive difference between this victim and a full-time CD, who, in a somewhat crude description, after all, is a 'guy in a dress!'


"Now if you are referring to the "Ms Puppy" murder the person who was suspected to be the murderer was a crossdresser not the victim. That was the last public murder involving a TG person in the metro area"

Was unaware of that crime.....so, no, not my reference.


"Yes we all tend to focus on any crime when it involves one of our own"

And, what's your point?


"I can't? Gee how fascinating since I have no perspective of being a transgendered person for as long as I can remember. How I worried about the society reaction to being transgendered in the 80's because everything that could be associated with the gay community was considered a hazard and a health risk and how even a hint that you might be a TG in some areas was enough to have you at least shunned and often become a victim of some sort of hate speech. You are right I can't understand any of that."

Interesting response you made. That it had NOTHING to do with the statement I made is, of course, peripheral.

MY point had to do with your assertion that Sophie 'used up' a significant portion of his wife's life by not telling her about his little hobby before they married. Where I grew up, people who get married do so at the exact same time; the agreement is to SHARE their lives, in spite of what each has experienced prior and, at least in theory, in spite of what they experience together afterwards. The divorce rates in this country attest to the inability of many people to live up to the promises they made at the time of their marriages. Which, of course, would include confessions of unexpected, perhaps even undesirable, behaviors.

Oh, and congratulations to you for growing up in La-La Land.....Imagine, the worst response you had to face was the possibility of being subjected to a little hate speech! In MY life, I've known people who've been physically assaulted, critically in some cases, raped, and even killed because their lifestyle did not satisfy some other person's standards of propriety.


"I can understand that the person who chose to share my life knew about me almost from the start, supported me and never once tried to change me. We lived our lives normally for 35 years. She never threatened to leave because of my clothing, my feelings or often my attitude. I didn't hide who I was from her and she full disclosure from the start. This is why our life worked out. Yes there are things both of us never told the other but they were not anything that effected our life together. That is the point to all this, if it effects your spouse, it should not be a secret. You want to hide from the rest of the world, that is your prerogative. What you do in your house is only of issue with those living in the house."

I agree, but then, as you've clearly stated, the worst consequence you ever faced for your behavior was speech! Trust me....broken bodies hurt for a lot longer, assuming you survive the experience.


"I don't feel sorry for those that hide for years and then whine when they come out and get blasted. I don't buy your "he lost part of his life in that time" argument. That was HIS choice, he didn't give her the chance to make a decision. I will go back to the investment. If you don't disclose everything to the person who is building their life on what you present to be rather than what you really are, you are lying"

Absolutely......but then, no matter what they may say to the contrary, everyone lies....at some point. The purpose may be to protect someone else, but it's still a lie.


"Was that thought out? If your dressing effects your life alone, do what you see fit. If it effects someone who has built a life around you, it is their right to know."

"Never let facts destroy a perfectly emotional argument" (never let facts.....interfere with the thought processes!)

Your quote...my modification...based on your illogical responses to Sophie's statements.

[Rianna Humble]

Your quote...my modification...based on your illogical responses to Sophie's statements.

I think the correct term for what you say there is "I deliberately misquoted you".

BTW, please stop quoting the whole of War and Peace just to add a one line snide comment

[DemonicDaughter]

First, I have to say, if you are "hiding" or "lying" about ANYTHING in a relationship, it generally means you are embarrassed about it. If you are embarrassed of who you are or what you do, then perhaps you shouldn't be doing it. If you can't help but do it (as is the case with most CDing and TS) then why not lay all the cards down in hopes that someone else won't attempt to prohibit you from doing it?

Second, if the OP's lists strikes you as "so true", "typical" and/or "every woman" perhaps you need to start hanging out with a new crowd. Personally, I don't announce to a date that I preform bodily functions because, as Lorileah said, it's a "given" but I also don't need to confess the level of toe curling stench it might produce either. If you are stupid enough to believe that a person, male or female, purposefully gets fat because they are no longer single, you obviously have never been fat yourself and shouldn't be talking.

Lastly, you're comparing issues that either should be discussed or discovered before marriage and aren't an actual lifestyle. You're talking character flaws, not spending HOURS a day doing something that prior to getting married you didn't even hint at. It's like pretending to not even know what fishing is before getting married then never coming home after work because you need to go fishing. You're changing the dynamics of the relationship that way and are no longer playing the same game. It's one thing to have our delusions of our partners shattered, like discovering your girlfriend runs into the bathroom so you don't hear her fart but entirely something different when she runs in the bathroom to spend hours preening over her appearance, finding sexual gratification out of it, taking photos of herself doing it and messaging people outside your relationship about it. Do you see how that differs... just a bit?

[Sophie86]

No sympathy, I will have empathy.

Yeah.... I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make there. Can we split the difference and call it compassion? All I'm saying is that when a guy comes here to tell us about how his wife found out, and now he's in the soup, we shouldn't blast him for having lied. Doesn't he have enough problems already?


But there is a wonderful thing we have going here now. With the advent of the internet and sites similar to this (which are not as common as the ones reinforcing how TGism is a perversion and fetish) we can tell people now that they are 1) not alone and 2) that coming out earlier rather than later is a good thing.

Right, and as I said before, we should encourage people to tell the truth. I just don't see the point of jumping on people when they come here and say, "My wife of 20-30 years just found out that I'm a cross dresser, and I'm afraid she's going to divorce me." I mean, the guy's world is falling apart. Is it nice to say, "Serves you right?"


So 1) you are not alone.

I'm confused by what you wrote here. Were you responding to what you think my situation is, or some hypothetical person? If it's the former, please scroll back through the thread and read my previous responses wherein I explain my life.


What if you did want to leave now? Could she survive?

Um, yeah. Quite well, actually. I'm the no-career-having, "stay-at-home mom" in the family. She's got a great job.


You honestly don't see that over all this time you have built a trust, a trust that she had built her future on, that even if you don't think it will harm the relationship, it plants that seed. That little seed. What more is he hiding? What else don't I know about him?

Surprisingly, my wife didn't take it that way at all. She didn't assume that just because I had hidden this one thing about myself from everyone in the whole world, that I must have dozens of other skeletons in my closet. It had zero effect on her trust in me.


No all you see is that [-]YOU[/-] other people need sympathy for [-]your[/-] their fear.

Fixed that for you. This isn't about me. It's about how I saw someone else being treated.


You fear being outted. She fears losing what she had. You were terrified? How do you think she feels after 20 years to find out you held a secret?

I don't know how other women feel, or why. I just know how my wife reacted, and it was completely unlike any of that. It was more like: "Really?? Wow... okay." No terror, no "What else are you hiding?" Why do some women have no trouble understanding why their husbands kept the secret, and forgiving them? I would say it's for two reasons: 1) They are really happy with their marriage; and 2) they don't think the crossdressing is a big deal. It doesn't negate all the good years they've had together.


You cannot change what you have done in the past. You can help lead others to not make the same mistakes.

Right, no one can change the past. So when someone comes here and says he got busted by his wife, why don't we say something like: "We understand why you did it. You can't change the past, but here's what you can do going forward."


My idea is the hiding and keeping a secret makes it more than clothes. It makes it an issue of...shall we say...trust?

Sandra can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she meant that regardless of whether there is lying or not, it's more than just clothes. If I'm right, I would like to understand her perspective on it. Personally, I agree that it's not just clothes, but I would like to know her reasons for saying that.

[gingerli]

Hey, Soph......

Betcha you didn't know what a can of worms you were opening when you posted that bit of humor!!!!!!!!!!!

mark---real (boy) name

[Huntress]

"Cuh-Lasse; define:"
Forum
Thread
Discussion
Compassion
Vitiate
Didactic

"Pretty sure NO one has the "Final answer" for our contestant, tonight, Bob." "But let's show our contestant what he/she has won."

"a new CAR!"

Now back to the show...

[GaleWarning]

So there we were, discussing this thread. Shesa asks, "How would you feel if, after three years together, I suddenly announced that I wanted to start wearing trousers and get a p***s?"

I respond, "I'd wonder if my willy was too small to satisfy you."

"Youv'e nailed a big aspect of the GGs' fear - that they are somehow inadequate."

Just my :2c:

[Eryn]

Eryn with all due respect...the majority of cders here just think it is just about the clothes and makeup, and when an SO finds out they are moaned about because they either can't/won't accept...for most SO's it goes a heck of a lot deeper than the clothes etc.

I think I understand now. I was referring to the internal motivations of CDers and you were referring to the interpretation of CDing by SOs. Two completely different things.

[shesadvl]

So there we were, discussing this thread. Shesa asks, "How would you feel if, after three years together, I suddenly announced that I wanted to start wearing trousers and get a p***s?"

I respond, "I'd wonder if my willy was too small to satisfy you."

"Youv'e nailed a big aspect of the GGs' fear - that they are somehow inadequate."

Just my :2c:

I am not sure you actually understood what i was saying CF, I actually said in the dialogue we were having was
how would it be received by our male partners who crossdress would feel if all of a sudden we as GG's dropped on them that we wanted to be FTM, how would they react,

I know your mind wasnt where it should be it hasnt been all day....:eek::heehee::doh:


your comment at that,....." was all of a sudden my willy would become to small and probably not satisfy you," ,
what i took from that was You as a Male would feel inadequate!!!! because we chose to want to be FTM,......how would this affect us as you quoted?????

well I do know there are some darnd big dildos out there, perhaps that would be easier batteries dont argue and then the dildo doesnt dress maybe thats the answer...:p lol....


"Youv'e nailed a big aspect of the GGs' fear - that they are somehow inadequate." I have no fear of any of you dressing, whether it be better then myself, we are all individualistic,..... and im sure the other GG's have no fear of feeling inadequate, of what you dress in either,...I could go further in my comment on this but ill get slapped.... (yeh could like that tooo lol).... so we shall leave that there..... but you get the gist of my comment..... man....oOOOOOooo man....if i could reach through the computor i know a few would get a slap up the side the head..n say wake up......

You guyz just dont get it!!!!!!!!!!! we have no fear of you ever,you try and emulate us as woman,... you keep it secret for god knows how long (ok CF exception of you and a few others here)...

IF you guyz think that then I think a lot of you are all friggin dreaming...and your heads are buried not in sand but up in the dark dreary end of your butt...... (nice terminology on my part...) :battingeyelashes:.....

i think you all need to grow up get up to speed of being happy with yourselves, on the same page with your wives that know,.....
those that havent told your wives,.... i suggest perhaps you do..... be honest about things,.....I wonder how many will.... not a lot....

so this a dead horse being flogged by those that wish to change things to suit their end means..... :eek::wall::wall::wall::Pullhair::facepalm:

[Anna B]

I would not have a big problem if my wife announced that she was going to go FtoM. since I am tending towards MtoF, as long as she still wanted to be with me!

Anna x

[shesadvl]

lol anna....
as long as she still wanted to be with me!
that would end up a long dialogue and if there isnt any there at present ,.....If both partners were honest before the start of their marriage as some of the posters have said.... all cards on the table... the wife supports the husband because he CD's they're both on the
same page, there are those that walk the path of transition,.. with great wives who there with them all the way,... and still with there partners,....
then there are the others drop the bomb on the wife....re their transientness, throw huge tantrums because they cant be and do who they want to be.... dont know if they are going to transition...do give their wives the grief...... this is dropped on the wife after say 10/15 years of marriage....
how the he*l.... do you think a wife is supposed to get her head around all this including the fact that the husband is transgendered either dresses, and goes all out in all directions....

its as bad being married and come home and finding your husband in bed with another man!!!!! or another woman!!!!! vice versa.....they both/all have the same results....& effect.

its not the clothes its not the makeup its not the wanting to be ftm either... it goes deeper then how do you not respect the person you want in your life for the right reason
no matter how you are.... is there not a thought to give them that chance to show you that they care for you as to who you are not,... how you are,........or how you dress,
but for goodness sake dont damn well lie about things....

Irene shesadvl yup thats me......:battingeyelashes:

[Sandra]

In your view, what is the significance to SOs that makes it so much more than just clothes?

Not quite sure what you mean but I'll have a go

Initially it is trust, deceit, it is not just the finding out but what comes later, the cder thinking that just because the SO knows then they can spend what they want, dress when ever they want etc without talking to their SO's about it, and if any boundaries have been agreed, pushing these to the limit and going over board with them.



Sandra. I am sorry I stepped on your part of that question, please tell me if I am totally off base

No problems....and I think most GGs here will agree with you.

[Sophie86]

Initially it is trust, deceit, it is not just the finding out but what comes later, the cder thinking that just because the SO knows then they can spend what they want, dress when ever they want etc without talking to their SO's about it, and if any boundaries have been agreed, pushing these to the limit and going over board with them.

Ah, okay! That's completely different from where I thought you were going. Thanks for replying! :)

The part about spending what they want, doing what they want, and pushing agreed-on boundaries could be said about pretty much any husband and his hobby, though, right? Golfing, hunting, fishing, shooting... I've done the hunting and the fishing. Currently, I play D&D, and we've had plenty of issues over that one. Neither one compares to my dad's gun collection though. The man is obsessed.

[Eryn]

The part about spending what they want, doing what they want, and pushing agreed-on boundaries could be said about pretty much any husband and his hobby, though, right? Golfing, hunting, fishing, shooting...

Logically, it should be the same, but I think that CDing has a special status because of the persistant myths and the reduced ability to discuss it outside the couple. The SO can talk to her friends about hubby's fishing obsession, but cannot so easily complain about his CDing obsession. That eliminates an emotional safety valve and can allow pressure to build up to an intolerable level.

That's one reason that it is so important to get SOs involved in something like FAB or a face-to-face group. Having others to discuss the issues with helps everyone to see things more realistically, particularly when the others have had similar experiences and managed to create healthier relationships from them.

[Nicole Erin]

Being single and not having to put up with some disapproving GG is so nice :D

[GirlieAmanda]

I too lied to my future wife by not telling her about being TG. We dated for 5 years, and on the advice from my Dad, I never told her about it. We both are baffled and my wife angry about my Dad telling me to not be truthful to her. I looked up to my Dad and I trusted him. He must have had a good reason. He was a great guy and very loving and touched a lot of people's lives. Now he did not know we would get married about 3 years after he told me not to tell but it never came up again. He sent me to a therapist which I really wasn't keen on but we really never talked about it again. After 5 years of marriage, my wife found out. There was anger, and confusion. We continued for 10 more years with me hiding it again after I said I stopped. So I guess I was lying again. She was always an angry person and progressively less and less sexual. She dressed frumpily and got a little heavy but not too bad. After we got divorced this past April, now she is Miss sex and fitness girl and has gotten tattoos and piercings. She said because of my non advances toward her, she got less sexual. I guess I can see that but it's hard to want to have sex with an angry and negative person. I was always afraid to ask or start something. Especially after she found out. I had problems with ED too which I think stemmed from her anger.

Now I am free and although a little lonely, I don't have to lie to anyone. I may not tell people things, but if asked straight out, I would probably tell them about me. No one has asked though even though my appearance is more and more feminine lately. Single life is peaceful though. I believe I am happier because I am not living a lie.

[Babeba]

Saying something to "THE ONE" about your crossdressing before you commit to marriage looks good on paper, but I'm willing to bet it ends in disaster most of the time. Sure there will be that 0-5% that will be accepting, if you're lucky enough to find her but I bet most will push you away like you've got leprosy and they are likely to warn others of your "perversion"...

The security of my marriage/relationship, the opinions of my children and their peers mean more to me than a clear conscience...

...Lying is bad if it is self serving and malicious. My lie is neither.
Ginger

Reading your post, Ginger, kind of makes me think two things:

1) I'm really not THAT special... it's definitely going to be more than 5% of GGs entering a serious relationship and having that told to them who end up okay with it! At the very least, if a potential SO cannot handle the disclosure and breaks up with you, it's easier to deal with sooner than later. Occasionally at my work, people will bring in "abandoned baby wildlife" - species like cottontail rabbits and fawns where the mother will abandon them if they have any scent on them, and there's pretty much no way for humans to keep them alive due to how they need their mother to help them purge toxins as they nurse. (Thankfully it hasn't happened yet this spring so I haven't had to see it yet.) But when those baby animals get brought in - you know they're dead, they just haven't gotten round to it yet. If a potential partner is so intolerant of cross dressing that they would rather give up an otherwise wonderful relationship because they can't wrap their heads around it? That relationship is like a baby fawn some well-meaning little kid has gone and petted.

2) If a lie keeps people from being able to make important decisions affecting their lives for themselves, that lie isn't for them; it's for the person lying. Like I said before, children is a bit of a sticky issue as you really don't get to choose your children, just make them. But what if your wife had secretly converted to some fringe cult religion, and when you weren't around she was spending time with other members discussing topics she knew you may well find vaguely creepy? Hiding receipts, using cash far more frequently to be able to keep you from figuring out this secret part of your life? Would you rather know, or have her keep hiding this part of her from you?

[sfwarbonnet]

If you lie, you have to remember what you told to whom; if you don't, you don't.
Q.E.D.

[GingerLeigh]

Reading your post, Ginger, kind of makes me think two things:

1) I'm really not THAT special... it's definitely going to be more than 5% of GGs entering a serious relationship and having that told to them who end up okay with it! At the very least, if a potential SO cannot handle the disclosure and breaks up with you, it's easier to deal with sooner than later. Occasionally at my work, people will bring in "abandoned baby wildlife" - species like cottontail rabbits and fawns where the mother will abandon them if they have any scent on them, and there's pretty much no way for humans to keep them alive due to how they need their mother to help them purge toxins as they nurse. (Thankfully it hasn't happened yet this spring so I haven't had to see it yet.) But when those baby animals get brought in - you know they're dead, they just haven't gotten round to it yet. If a potential partner is so intolerant of cross dressing that they would rather give up an otherwise wonderful relationship because they can't wrap their heads around it? That relationship is like a baby fawn some well-meaning little kid has gone and petted.

2) If a lie keeps people from being able to make important decisions affecting their lives for themselves, that lie isn't for them; it's for the person lying. Like I said before, children is a bit of a sticky issue as you really don't get to choose your children, just make them. But what if your wife had secretly converted to some fringe cult religion, and when you weren't around she was spending time with other members discussing topics she knew you may well find vaguely creepy? Hiding receipts, using cash far more frequently to be able to keep you from figuring out this secret part of your life? Would you rather know, or have her keep hiding this part of her from you?


Not sure what to make of the whole baby rabbit/fawn thing, as for If a lie keeps people from being able to make important decisions affecting their lives for themselves, that lie isn't for them; it's for the person lying That's true enough, got me there. At that time (while dating) I never considered my crossdressing to be a real problem. Just something I did/not was and I thought of it as more of a fetish. I found out later how wrong I was. Joining some creepy cult thing is more serious than my CDing. The harm to the family unit could be much more devastating (think Jonestown) than my secretly prancing around in a petticoat and thigh-highs. A secret religious cult thing is more comparable to a secret heroin addiction or compulsive gambling.

Ginger

[Jorja]

After reading 6 pages of this thread, you all are all over the place with this topic.

Here is the plain and simple truth. If you are planning on marrying the girl or boy of your dreams and you crossdress, you need to tell your future spouse right now.

If your crossdressing started after you were married, you need to stop and tell your spouse right now before things get way out of control.

Communication with your spouse is of the utmost importance in a marriage.

[Pythos]

gignerli,

I would like you to find and post these laws of which you speak.

Also the individual killed, did they get a bit too far with the person he was fooling? This is in no way a justification, the killer should be offed in my book, just an extreme act of cowardice. But if the victim was leading the guy on (who was no doubt horney), the victim was playing with a loaded gun pointed at his head.

There are Laws in France that prohibit women from wearing pants. It is also ignored as the stupid law it is.

[Lorileah]

gignerli,

I would like you to find and post these laws of which you speak. There aren't any in Colorado. Maybe in Kentenneeseeevania


Also the individual killed, did they get a bit too far with the person he was fooling? This is in no way a justification, the killer should be offed in my book, just an extreme act of cowardice. But if the victim was leading the guy on (who was no doubt horney), the victim was playing with a loaded gun pointed at his head. I think they were referring to Angie Zapata, you can run a search here for Zapata and find posts from 2009

[lizlizzie]

its as bad being married and come home and finding your husband in bed with another man!!!!! or another woman!!!!! vice versa.....they both/all have the same results....& effect.:

I have to disagree with that. Finding my spouse in bed with someone else, I am encouraged by everyone to divorce the scum. Finding out my husband wants to be a woman and has been living like one when I am not at home, I am expected to be supportive and understanding. Then it seems no matter how much I accept and am willing to live with, it's never enough.

In regards to all these comments on why is it more than just clothes and makeup?

One of the questions that we SO first ask is does that mean you want to beome woman and you all say no. Since we weren't told about the CD, how do we know if you swearing that's all it is and your intention is to remain male is the truth? Especially when so many go into the pink fog as soon as it's out in the open and we try to be accepting - you all go off the deep end of happiness while we no longer know what is true and what is false in our relationship. Then when we are told you do want to become woman, it's the same excuse as to why you didn't tell us - you were trying not to hurt us; you didn't know; you thought it would go away. I understand the majority of CDs are not TG, but it does happen and for most wives our knowledge is limited and we have had no education on this topic because we didn't know we needed to. I could have understood my spouse being gay easier than I could the CD and TG.

The attitude that if I don't know I won't get hurt by it making it ok is really annoying. I have experienced it enough in life and seen it in enough relationships to know that it really is code for you don't want to have to deal with it and not telling me makes your life easier. A justification to lie.

In response to why the SO has to beat up on the new person who says I just told my wife and she didn't take it well is because they don't seem to understand the first answer is going to be in most cases your wife is angry, hurt, confused, and lost because you lied to her about a fundamental part of you who are and she has no idea what it means and is now re-evaluating her whole life with you.

The original poster talks about someone being in la la land. While I actually agree with alot of things stated and I understood the original post to equally make fun of both sexes' expectations, the poster wants to live in denial and tell others how wrong they are to feel the way they do and wants them to accept that. The thread will go on, but it's a fantasy to think its going to change the feeling that spouses have been lied to. Strictly speaking it's deception and not a lie simply because we never thought to ask you, "Oh by the way, are you a cross-dresser?" It doesn't matter what you want to call it, the bottom line is we have built a life with someone we thought we knew, that now we discover they have been hiding something major about themselves from us, and (right or wrong) it's a matter that affects our lives, how we see ourselves and our relationship, and what we had expected of our future together.

[shesadvl]

After reading 6 pages of this thread, you all are all over the place with this topic.

Here is the plain and simple truth. If you are planning on marrying the girl or boy of your dreams and you crossdress, you need to tell your future spouse right now.

If your crossdressing started after you were married, you need to stop and tell your spouse right now before things get way out of control.

Communication with your spouse is of the utmost importance in a marriage.

well said Jorja, you get it now we need a few others to get it...lol :battingeyelashes:





Originally Posted by shesadvl :-its as bad being married and come home and finding your husband in bed with another man!!!!! or another woman!!!!! vice versa.....they both/all have the same results....& effect.

I have to disagree with that. Finding my spouse in bed with someone else, I am encouraged by everyone to divorce the scum. Finding out my husband wants to be a woman and has been living like one when I am not at home, I am expected to be supportive and understanding. Then it seems no matter how much I accept and am willing to live with, it's never enough.

In regards to all these comments on why is it more than just clothes and makeup?

One of the questions that we SO first ask is does that mean you want to beome woman and you all say no. Since we weren't told about the CD, how do we know if you swearing that's all it is and your intention is to remain male is the truth? Especially when so many go into the pink fog as soon as it's out in the open and we try to be accepting - you all go off the deep end of happiness while we no longer know what is true and what is false in our relationship. Then when we are told you do want to become woman, it's the same excuse as to why you didn't tell us - you were trying not to hurt us; you didn't know; you thought it would go away. I understand the majority of CDs are not TG, but it does happen and for most wives our knowledge is limited and we have had no education on this topic because we didn't know we needed to. I could have understood my spouse being gay easier than I could the CD and TG.

The attitude that if I don't know I won't get hurt by it making it ok is really annoying. I have experienced it enough in life and seen it in enough relationships to know that it really is code for you don't want to have to deal with it and not telling me makes your life easier. A justification to lie.

In response to why the SO has to beat up on the new person who says I just told my wife and she didn't take it well is because they don't seem to understand the first answer is going to be in most cases your wife is angry, hurt, confused, and lost because you lied to her about a fundamental part of you who are and she has no idea what it means and is now re-evaluating her whole life with you.

The original poster talks about someone being in la la land. While I actually agree with alot of things stated and I understood the original post to equally make fun of both sexes' expectations, the poster wants to live in denial and tell others how wrong they are to feel the way they do and wants them to accept that. The thread will go on, but it's a fantasy to think its going to change the feeling that spouses have been lied to. Strictly speaking it's deception and not a lie simply because we never thought to ask you, "Oh by the way, are you a cross-dresser?" It doesn't matter what you want to call it, the bottom line is we have built a life with someone we thought we knew, that now we discover they have been hiding something major about themselves from us, and (right or wrong) it's a matter that affects our lives, how we see ourselves and our relationship, and what we had expected of our future together.

I also agree with what you have posted as in the experience you have/had with your SO, thankyou for sharing......

I think you may have miss understood what i was referring to there....
I was referring to a wife trying to get her head around all this,as it would be,.. to be coming home,.. finding your husband in bed with another man, (had a girlfriend have that happen to her) & (a male friend come home and find his wife in bed with another woman)

This not only affects emotions and relationships, does not matter if you are not a transgendered just a normal couple with no transgendered issues,......
as to the lying about crossdressing or TS.
The ramifications as follows:-
that CDing/TS:- is dropped on the wife after say 10/15 years of marriage.... how the he*l.... do you think a wife is supposed to get her head around all this including the fact that the husband is transgendered either dresses, and goes all out in all directions.... as you also mentioned in your post.....

cheers Irene shesadvl yup thats me..... :battingeyelashes:

[eluuzion]

gignerli,

I would like you to find and post these laws of which you speak.
.

hiya Pythos:hugs:

I also had difficulty with the "clarity" of the information in gingerli post.
Here is what I believe is actually going on in Colorado...based upon my facts...

Here are the only two recent Colorado legal “TG” incidents I am aware of...
One was a TG murdered by a guy that found out “later” that Angie Zapata was actually a male. (in 2008) The documentary movie is being released this month. He got life + 60 years.

The other TG related case was in Feb this year. Two dead bodies were found in a basement of a house where some restaurant owner and a homeless CD were staying. They are still looking for both of them. The CD is the prime suspect in the murders. (See links to both stories below)

Sentenced to Life + 60 years for July 2008 murder of TG Angie Zapata
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12330165?source=pkg

Denver police searching for crossdressing suspect ("Ms. Puppy") in Feb 2011 murder
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_17432737

I am not an attorney but I should be with all of the legal battles I have done pro-se’, lol. I also have a few good friends who are attorneys here in Denver. None of us are aware of the recent murder that was mentioned, or any Colorado city ordinances that were referenced.

Sure, we still ride horses instead of driving those automotive contraptions you flatlanders use in the East, but we actually do have a few laws relevant to transgender issues out here in the Wild Wild West, lol.

Colorado Non-Discrimination Law
Gender identity protected? Yes
Sexual orientation protected? Yes
As of August 3, 2007, Colorado’s non-discrimination law was amended to apply to "sexual orientation”, which is defined as “a person’s orientation toward heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, or transgender status or an employer’s perception thereof.” Colorado Revised Statutes 24-34-401, 24-34-402.

Colorado Hate Crimes Law
Gender identity protected? Yes
Sexual orientation protected? Yes
“Transgender status” is included in the definition of sexual orientation and is covered in the state’s bias-motivated crimes law. COLO. REV. STAT. § 18-9-121

Colorado Sodomy Law
The Colorado sodomy law was repealed in 1972.


GLBT Legislative Tracker (tracks Colorado GLBT related legislation Bills, etc.)
http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/354/documents/2011%20Bill%20Tracker%20End%20of%20Session.pdf

If anyone is interested in viewing the LGBT laws in your own state...
Here is a search engine for U.S. LGBT laws indexed by state:
http://www.hrc.org/laws_and_elections/state.asp

There, all better...

well,,a little better anyway...:)

:love:

[Marabelle]

I didnt tell my last wife untill we were together about 10 years& I feel It contibuted to it not woking out.This time around I was honest right from the start.Although it has bin the end of things on other ocassions when I was honest.

[Sophie86]

Finding out my husband wants to be a woman and has been living like one when I am not at home, I am expected to be supportive and understanding.

Let me be the exception then: It's your life. If a crossdressing husband isn't something you want in your life, you should leave. You can be a lot more supportive and understanding from a distance than you can when you're sitting there thinking, "This is not what I wanted in my life."


I understand the majority of CDs are not TG, but it does happen and for most wives our knowledge is limited and we have had no education on this topic because we didn't know we needed to. I could have understood my spouse being gay easier than I could the CD and TG.

I'm sorry you had to go through that.


In response to why the SO has to beat up on the new person who says I just told my wife and she didn't take it well is because they don't seem to understand the first answer is going to be in most cases your wife is angry, hurt, confused, and lost because you lied to her about a fundamental part of you who are and she has no idea what it means and is now re-evaluating her whole life with you.

I believe that the part I've underlined there is the key worry, and it's a legitimate worry. As you noted, a certain percentage of CDs eventually decide that they are really TS, and they don't always know immediately and won't always admit it if they suspect. How is the wife to know what's going to happen? She doesn't. It would be much easier for her to say, "Well, you lied, and I can't live with a liar, so goodbye," than to stick around and try to deal with being married to someone who is TG. That's why I say it is not the lying itself that is the issue. Marriage is a process of getting to know another person, and couples deal with new revelations all the time. It's the content of this revelation that is the real issue.


The original poster talks about someone being in la la land.

I know I didn't use the words "la la land," so I guess that's you interpretation of something else I said. I'm not sure what I said that could have been taken that way. Could you point me to it?


the poster wants to live in denial and tell others how wrong they are to feel the way they do and wants them to accept that.

No, I never said that SOs are wrong to feel the way they do. I've said two things: 1) I don't think the lying is the real issue for SOs; and 2) people come here for support, and we shouldn't beat them up over having lied to their spouses. Our goal should be to help them move forward.


Strictly speaking it's deception and not a lie simply because we never thought to ask you, "Oh by the way, are you a cross-dresser?"

As the OP, let me say again that I am not in the "it's not lying" camp. Calling it "deception" doesn't help as you point out, and I'm sure that most crossdressers do end up lying at some point in order to cover their activity. I know there were at least a couple of times when I had to tell a bald faced lie or be busted.


It doesn't matter what you want to call it, the bottom line is we have built a life with someone we thought we knew, that now we discover they have been hiding something major about themselves from us, and (right or wrong) it's a matter that affects our lives, how we see ourselves and our relationship, and what we had expected of our future together.

I think the above paragraph makes the point very well that the emphasis in the reaction isn't "Oh my god, you lied!" It's "Oh my god, what does this mean, and what's going to happen now?" If the SO gets stuck on "you lied," I think it's a signal that she's not wanting to confront the latter issues. What she's doing, imo, is mourning the years she "wasted" with someone she knows in her heart she can't live with anymore. The relationship is dead in her heart, but she hasn't quite accepted it yet. She's in the second stage of grief: Anger. Eventually, she will reach the point of acceptance, and it will be over. In the meantime, there's going to be anger, there's going to be bargaining, and there's going to be depression.

For crossdressers, I think it's important to take a clear-eyed view of how your SO is reacting, and what the likely outcome is going to be. If she says something like, "Okay, you shouldn't have lied, but let's work through this," then you have a really good chance of staying together. If she keeps going on about how you lied and betrayed her, then it's probably not going to end well. Be prepared. You don't have to accept whatever moral condemnation she wants to heap on you, but don't try to shift the blame to her either.

For SOs, I think it's important to understand that there is no moral obligation to stay with a husband who crossdresses. Good manners dictates that people shouldn't point and laugh at crossdressers when they see them in public. Morality demands that crossdressers have the right to dress and go out in public without being harrassed or harmed in any way. But there is no moral commandment saying that an SO has to find her crossdressing husband romantically attractive. So don't beat yourself up saying that you "ought" to be able to accept him as he is. There's no point in trying to rationalize your feelings: You feel what you feel, and if you don't feel it, you don't feel it. It's pointless for the two of you to go through however many years of torture while you try to make yourself feel something you can't.

Both should try to have some sympathy and understanding for what the other is going through, if for no other reason than it takes the edge off of your anger and makes you feel a whole lot better about life. It also makes the divorce process a whole lot smoother.

[Jorja]

well said Jorja, you get it now we need a few others to get it...lol :battingeyelashes:

I hate to admit it but I had to learn the hard way many years ago. I lost one of the most beautiful people, inside and out, one could ever imagine. All because I was stupid and did not tell the truth early on in the relationship. :(

[shesadvl]

I hate to admit it but I had to learn the hard way many years ago. I lost one of the most beautiful people, inside and out, one could ever imagine. All because I was stupid and did not tell the truth early on in the relationship. :(

hard lessons to learn jorja we know this thanx for sharing that....:love:

[lizlizzie]

Sophie:

I think you missed the point, in your anxiousness to defend your position. Your question, as I understood it, was why do we jump on the new person who is upset because their wife reacted negatively and that the spouses' first comments are always to jump on the person about lying. I answered the question. Not agreeing with my answer doesn't change the reason why that is our first response. I can also add that it doesn't help that in response to our reaction being you have lied to me all these years, the CD's response is to justify why they lied. If you can lie about this, what else in our marriage is a lie and are you now telling us the complete truth or eeking it out in pieces so you can decide how much to tell us? This is what goes through every spouse's mind. Unless the lying and justification stop, the relationship cannot heal. Whether you like it or not, lying is the first issue and to move forward trust has to be regained. The new person needs to understand that when they are coming in here saying how do I save my marriage.

The majority of us didn't want this in our life. Those who stay realize that it's the person they love and not the manner of dress. You denigrate the fact that we try to learn, to understand, and to accept and your answer is we should just bail on day one. You have had how many years to examine your feelings, your thoughts, your needs, and what this means. You have had the opportunity to talk to others in the same situation. Yet, allowing us enough time to do the same thing -seems unfathomable to you. The first time you dressed, was it trying on a pair of panties or was it full regalia? Give us the same courtesy you gave yourself - time to learn and understand and adjust, which many of us are willing to.

And yes, the person we knew, the relatonship as we knew it, just died. We deserve the time to grieve. For some they come to a new understanding about the world and about themselves. For others they learn and make the decision to leave. How many times and how many years did you spend coming to terms with who you are and in that process purging and starting over? Shouldn't we have the same consideration of time to figure out what this means to us? (And while we are doing this, it doesn't help that the average CD suddenly feels free now that the wife knows and goes wild with makeup, clothes, shaving, and splurging on the things they want.)

I have seen the posts over the past 2 years. Many CDs have more female clothes than their wives. If you are an average middle class family with children, do you know how many of us have to budget to afford a nice wardrobe? And while we raise the children, do the housework, hold down full time jobs and suddenly learn that our spouse is someone we didn't know, we still have to put one foot in front of the other and keep things going. Now we have to figure in the budget your wardrobe. I see some of these posts of men having whole closets full of female clothing and then complaining that their wives don't dress up for them anymore or aren't skinny anymore. Have a few kids, go through hormonal changes and grab something to eat in between soccer games, grocery shopping, putting meals on the table, running a house, and parent teacher conferences and see how much time you have to spend on yourself. If a new person really wants to see their marriage survive, they would be better off listening to what spouses have to say instead of believing in your fantasy world. And if in the process it hurts their feelings and they slow down, then maybe their marriage will survive because their wives will have a chance to catch up and breathe. A decision that affects your life the way divorce does should not be made based on an initial reaction, which seems to be what you advocate. I didn't make the decision to get married after one conversation, why should I make the decision to end it without having time to give it the same amount of consideration?

In regards to your comments about me personally, you don't know me. Yes, I reacted badly initially. What do you expect of a wife who finds a drawer full of women's clothes hidden by her husband? But I am not a quitter and believe love is more than just the outside. I stood by my spouse, but I could find very limited resources to help me understand. It took me 6 months to find the information and understanding I needed. I chose to accper her the way she was, in my life and in my bed. If I followed your theory, I would have walked out and missed an opportunity to grow and learn.

[ReineD]

That's why I say it is not the lying itself that is the issue. Marriage is a process of getting to know another person, and couples deal with new revelations all the time. It's the content of this revelation that is the real issue.

...

I think the above paragraph makes the point very well that the emphasis in the reaction isn't "Oh my god, you lied!" It's "Oh my god, what does this mean, and what's going to happen now?" If the SO gets stuck on "you lied," I think it's a signal that she's not wanting to confront the latter issues. What she's doing, imo, is mourning the years she "wasted" with someone she knows in her heart she can't live with anymore. The relationship is dead in her heart, but she hasn't quite accepted it yet. She's in the second stage of grief: Anger. Eventually, she will reach the point of acceptance, and it will be over. In the meantime, there's going to be anger, there's going to be bargaining, and there's going to be depression.

Your points may be valid for some relationships, certainly they apply in your own. You did say your wife understood why you didn't tell her about the CDing for so long and the lying was not an issue for her.

But although it might be convenient or tidy to apply your experience as being a general rule, it just isn't realistic. There are marriages where the lie is a far worse transgression than the act of CDing, plus there are too many factors that influence this to support your theory that it is the fear or dislike of the CDing that is worse than the lies: what level of CDing is applicable by the time the wife finds out? Is the husband just beginning his expression, or has he been leading the equivalent of a double life? Are there sexual issues in the marriage? Have there been affairs? Are there codependent issues in the marriage? How well does the couple communicate and compromise on other issues? How long has it been since the wife felt something was amiss but she couldn't put her finger on it? What stories has she woven in her mind over any distance she might have perceived in her husband? What is her level of self-esteem as the result of this or other issues? Has the couple built up resentments over other issues over the years that are now ready to explode? In short, what is the general level of emotional trust and emotional intimacy in the marriage?

So yes, I can see a much stronger argument for a wife feeling that the lies are the greatest betrayal of all. Also, when people lie, they do give the impression they care far more about the issue that the lie protects than the person they are lying to.

[Pythos]

Well, the marriage vow is "To have and to hold, for better or worse, through sickness and health". I see nothing, not one damned thing about dumping FOR ANY REASON, yes not even infidelity. Though personally I think many cheaters are scum, and I have lost respect for one member of my family that cheated on her husband...with his best freind, I do think there should be a caveat about cheating in those vows, but presently there is none.

But then again, this day and age those vows aren't worth the paper they are written on.

[JulieK1980]

Well, the marriage vow is "To have and to hold, for better or worse, through sickness and health". I see nothing, not one damned thing about dumping FOR ANY REASON, yes not even infidelity. Though personally I think many cheaters are scum, and I have lost respect for one member of my family that cheated on her husband...with his best freind, I do think there should be a caveat about cheating in those vows, but presently there is none.

But then again, this day and age those vows aren't worth the paper they are written on.

A couple can always write their own vows. But, yes many people forget their vows the second after their said. I do of course see many reasons why people need to retain that ability to divorce though. People should be together because they WANT to be together not, because they are forced to be together. Vows aside, nobody should spend their life unhappy even if they made the mistakes that led to the unhappiness.

[Sophie86]

But although it might be convenient or tidy to apply your experience as being a general rule, it just isn't realistic.

I'm not the only one who has reported that their SO didn't get upset about the lying. I'm not just generalizing based on my experience with my wife, but also from what I've seen here. So far, all the responses from the SOs I've seen in this discussion have emphasized the negative consequences that crossdressing has on the SO. You've talked to a lot more SOs on here than I have, though. How many of them report that they are fine with the crossdressing, but are just upset that he felt he needed to lie about it? Doesn't being upset about the crossdressing itself tend to go hand-in-hand with being upset that he lied?


there are too many factors that influence this to support your theory that it is the fear or dislike of the CDing that is worse than the lies: what level of CDing is applicable by the time the wife finds out? Is the husband just beginning his expression, or has he been leading the equivalent of a double life? Are there sexual issues in the marriage? Have there been affairs? Are there codependent issues in the marriage? How well does the couple communicate and compromise on other issues? How long has it been since the wife felt something was amiss but she couldn't put her finger on it? What stories has she woven in her mind over any distance she might have perceived in her husband? What is her level of self-esteem as the result of this or other issues? Has the couple built up resentments over other issues over the years that are now ready to explode? In short, what is the general level of emotional trust and emotional intimacy in the marriage?

It's absolutely true that if the CDing fits into a more general pattern of lying, then the trust issues are going to be a critical factor, completely aside from her view of the crossdressing itself. I agree with you that the extent to which it could be viewed as a double life is important. Some CDs here have reported going on fake business trips in order to get dressing up time. That's a level of deception that goes far beyond just "she didn't ask, so I didn't tell." If you add in past affairs, then yeah, there's zero basis for trust there.

And yes, there could be a lot of other issues going on in the marriage. It was a simplification on my part to treat the crossdressing as the sole issue. But you know, no one else was asking those kinds of question in the thread that set me thinking about all this. They were reacting as if his having concealed the fact that he was a crossdresser was the only issue.

Of course, it could also be a perfectly sound marriage, and the husband might have a solid reputation for telling the truth regarding everything except his crossdressing.

So when a crossdresser tells us that his wife found out and now she's upset, I guess a nuanced approach would be to ask questions about the relationship and try to get a feel for exactly what the issues are instead of assuming that she's experiencing


So yes, I can see a much stronger argument for a wife feeling that the lies are the greatest betrayal of all.

But to make that argument you have to hypothesize a context in which a lot of active lying has taken place. Within that context, I can agree with you.


Also, when people lie, they do give the impression they care far more about the issue that the lie protects than the person they are lying to.

In this case, the thing they care about is their self-respect as men. Things that affect the ego are very important to people. Just ask all the women who want to keep their crossdressing husbands in the closet.

[ReineD]

Sophie, yes there have been GGs who've understood the difficulties their husbands faced with telling them about the CDing. Their marriages were likely free of other issues, or their personalities and their own backgrounds allowed for this level of understanding. What I'm saying is there are a lot more GGs who feel devastated about having been lied to, or if you prefer, not having had the CDing disclosed. Also, there are very few marriage where there is an absence of unresolved other issues. You just can't make a blanket statement that a GG's feelings of betrayal are just an excuse for non-acceptance of the CDing. This just isn't true.

I don't know how to have you believe this.

Maybe this is a good analogy: Most CDs on this board will tell me that I have no idea of the deep culture of homophobia boys face during their developing years from their peers, and how difficult it is for a CDer to allow his more feminine feelings to come through in front of his friends. As a more mature GG who has known secure men who have no qualms about crying when they need to, it is difficult for me to understand but I will allow that the homophobic culture exists, especially around developing boys.

In a similar vein, you might allow that women seek different levels of emotional intimacy from their partners than men do, and to not disclose a huge part of who you are is far more devastating to a wife than it might be to a husband?

EDIT
Sophie, if you like, you and I can work together on a survey of sorts (via PMs), that I can post in the Loved Ones section to determine what it is about the CDing that most upsets our GG members. If I make it a sticky, over time we should be able to have a decent sample.

[Eryn]

Maybe this is a good analogy: Most CDs on this board will tell me that I have no idea of the deep culture of homophobia boys face during their developing years from their peers, and how difficult it is for a CDer to allow his more feminine feelings to come through in front of his friends. As a more mature GG who has known secure men who have no qualms about crying when they need to, it is difficult for me to understand but I will allow that the homophobic culture exists, especially around developing boys.

In a similar vein, you might allow that women seek different levels of emotional intimacy from their partners than men do, and to not disclose a huge part of who you are is far more devastating to a wife than it might be to a husband?

A very good analogy. I'd like to add that the phrase "huge part of who you are" does not describe a constant. My "interest" (I knew little about the nature of crossdressing at the time) was a tiny part of who I was, not worth mentioning at the time I was married. After all, having a woman around all the time would satisfy that craving, right?

Nope, a couple of decades later and due to factors I don't fully understand it had grown to what is certainly a "huge part of who I am," but how does one judge at what point it became a big enough thing to prompt a discussion?

In my case, it was when it was causing me to become depressed, which directly affected my wife.

Knowing what I know now, I regret waiting so long. Talking about it a few years earlier would have made things easier for both of us. However, had my wife had been less reasonable and mature in her reaction I might well be regretting my decision and wishing I had never brought it up. I have faith in my wife, and she has shown that my faith is warranted. Unfortunately, this does not apply to all wives.

I think that the wife's reaction to CDing has a lot of it has to do with the nature of the marriage without consideration of CDing. If a couple has built a trusting relationship it can easily weather the revelation of CDing. If the couple's marriage is marred by doubt and uncertainty then a revelation of CDing might well be the last straw that ends the marriage.

[Sophie86]

You just can't make a blanket statement that a GG's feelings of betrayal are just an excuse for non-acceptance of the CDing. This just isn't true.

[snip...]

In a similar vein, you might allow that women seek different levels of emotional intimacy from their partners than men do, and to not disclose a huge part of who you are is far more devastating to a wife than it might be to a husband?

My brain's become so overloaded with nuance, I don't know what I think anymore. :p

Give me a few weeks to think about it. :)


Sophie, if you like, you and I can work together on a survey of sorts (via PMs), that I can post in the Loved Ones section to determine what it is about the CDing that most upsets our GG members. If I make it a sticky, over time we should be able to have a decent sample.

That sounds like an interesting project. Can you create polls on the forum?

[Momarie]

I personally don't need any more proof that some CD's are just never EVER gonna get it....and will stop at nothing to diminish a GG's thoughts and feelings on the subject of LYING.

Can we close this thread please?
It's has become ridiculous with an agenda that only serves two or three.

[ReineD]

Momarie, no one is flaming, no one is being disrespectful. It is a discussion that interests many people here. There is absolutely no reason to close this thread.

[Sophie86]

I personally don't need any more proof that some CD's are just never EVER gonna get it....and will stop at nothing to diminish a GG's thoughts and feelings on the subject of LYING.

Can we close this thread please?
It's has become ridiculous with an agenda that only serves two or three.

Thanks. Liz and Reine were being so reasonable and polite that I had forgotten why I started this thread. :straightface:

****

To Liz and Reine: Thank you, you've given me a lot to think about. So much so that I can't type a response to either of you that I'm happy with. I'm going to go off and think for awhile. I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me. :)

[Eryn]

Momarie, most of us do understand the concepts here, but it is unlikely that everyone will agree with the oversimplified portrayal of the issue that you seem to be advocating. Our motivations are not all the same and our decision processes are certainly not all the same. This means that we cannot be neatly pidgeonholed into categories of "liar" and "non-liar" since there are intermediate states, each with its own possible justifications and interpretations.

Even if it were true that the thread only served two or three that would be no reason to close it. If you don't want to read it I suggest that you avoid clicking on it.

[Momarie]

What were your motives for starting this thread?
As I recall you had written some things that were in pretty poor taste initially....

Or are you saying you were targeting me specifically?

[Eryn]

What Sophie wrote in her original post were some obviously stereotypical statements attributed to women and a mirror-image set of stereotypical statements attributed to men. Anyone who didn't see the humor in that needs to see a laughter specialist immediately! There was no poor taste involved unless one so desired to be offended that they chose to interpret the statements in the worst possible light.

The whole point was that lying is not a black-and-white issue. Everyone evaluates each situation, considers the attitudes and feelings of the person they are talking to, and decides when to avoid discussion, tell the truth, temper the truth, bend the truth, and yes, even lie. That is how we survive as humans.

[Sophie86]

What were your motives for starting this thread?

I was offended by the hateful way in which some people were responding to another poster. I didn't write down the names of those people, but I'm pretty sure I recognize the style of at least one of them. From your first post in this thread, you have been uniformly insulting towards me and anyone else who disagreed with you. You did apologize once for your most odious comment, but then you immediately retracted it when I didn't fall over myself to agree with your opinions. You've appointed yourself the protector of the GGs on this forum. You seem to think that anyone who doesn't agree with you is attacking them, so you launch counter attacks of insults (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?154608-Lying&p=2509970&viewfull=1#post2509970) and snide remarks (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?154608-Lying&p=2510162&viewfull=1#post2510162)--even when the target happens to be another GG expressing her opinion (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?155058-Jealousy&p=2518231&viewfull=1#post2518231)!

I honestly don't know why you're here. Based on your comments, I really don't think you like crossdressers. You may like your SO enough to put up with his crossdressing, but you've made it pretty plain to me that, in general, you hate our guts. Given that, I don't think you and I have anything else to discuss, so this is the last time I will respond to one of your comments. Henceforth, if you address me directly, you will get the blank stare. What's behind that stare is everything I've said here, and all the things I've refrained from saying.

[Presh GG]

I've been here a long time too.

The original thread ,I found in very poor taste as well.

I've been blessed to have met some wonderful people both here and in person, but with this thread , I can't , for the life of me , understand how anyone [ outside of a teenage boy ] could have found that Funny.

Presh GG

[Babeba]

Whew!! This thread is still going steadily, I see. There's a bit to catch up on from my days not on the forum!


Not sure what to make of the whole baby rabbit/fawn thing
I guess the analogy was a bit laboured, but if someone is fundamentally not going to be able to accept CDing, would do all the horrible things all the CDers on this board fear in terms of spreading the fact they crossdress all over the world if they found out - then maybe that couple should just let the relationship die rather than spend years together on something that just isn't going to work. Just like it works out better to put those baby rabbits/fawns who have been rejected by their mothers back into nature rather than try to spend futile weeks keeping them alive when they're already doomed.


Joining some creepy cult thing is more serious than my CDing. A secret religious cult thing is more comparable to a secret heroin addiction or compulsive gambling.

For some people, joining any religion whatsover is 'a creepy cult thing.' I was thinking of the LDA church when I wrote the analogy to fringe religions (i.e. Mormonism), and there are a whole lot of them in around where I live. I wouldn't be happy if Crystal joined their numbers without telling me, but I wouldn't compare it to heroin or compulsive gambling... mind you, I am CERTAIN there are going to be some people in the world who would compare crossdressing to one of those two things.


Doesn't being upset about the crossdressing itself tend to go hand-in-hand with being upset that he lied?


For many of the GGs who come to this board after being in a relationship for some time, yes. It can take some time to wrap your head around such an alien concept. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially in a marriage where the wife had nooooo idea about her husband's 'hobbies.' There are many women who have to learn how to deal with the crossdressing issues at the same time they have to learn to deal with the lying issues. From what I've seen on this board, the lying issues seem to hurt most - but that could be because this forum attracts more of the sort of GGs who want to understand why their husband is the way they are than just yammer on about how horrible CDing is - there are other places on the internet for that.



So when a crossdresser tells us that his wife found out and now she's upset, I guess a nuanced approach would be to ask questions about the relationship and try to get a feel for exactly what the issues are instead of assuming that she's experiencing.

But to make that argument you have to hypothesize a context in which a lot of active lying has taken place. Within that context, I can agree with you.

I don't think that active lying is necessarily going to have to be the underlying issue here. I've seen plenty of relationships where there are issues without necessarily active lying, and sometimes each individual person in that marriage has issues and hangups they bring to the table. Sometimes a CDer is so focused on his own feminine image that he seems to forget that just because his wife may not have time to spare to make the effort to be feminine, it doesn't mean she doesn't appreciate compliments now and then. I know many women who would feel not getting positive feedback and active support from their husbands as keenly as others would feel insults. It can cause issues.



In this case, the thing they care about is their self-respect as men. Things that affect the ego are very important to people. Just ask all the women who want to keep their crossdressing husbands in the closet.

Was that addressed at what I had said about crossdressing being Crystal's secret? Honestly, it would make my life easier to not have something to guard my tongue over... but I completely understand that she is happier being hidden and I would NEVER want to jeopardize her happiness.



What Sophie wrote in her original post were some obviously stereotypical statements attributed to women and a mirror-image set of stereotypical statements attributed to men. Anyone who didn't see the humor in that needs to see a laughter specialist immediately! There was no poor taste involved unless one so desired to be offended that they chose to interpret the statements in the worst possible light.

Eryn, I don't have the most developed sense of humour in the world, and although I didn't think the stereotypical statements at the beginning were funny I can understand that when that sort of joke is offered up with a light heart and taken the same way, it doesn't have to harm others. The thing that really REALLY bothered me about it, was how so many of the posters on the first couple pages jumped on the 'women are hypocrites!' sort of bandwagon. One poster made a comment about how his ex who put on some weight was a 'weak minded bitch just like the rest of them.' The anger in that seared me down to the soul to read. I don't think jokes of any sort are all that funny if they encourage anger and hatred!

[Nicole Erin]

I once lied to my wife and told her I was donating to PBS when in fact I was using that money to sponsor a child in Ethiopia.

I don't feel like it was lying cause either way the money was going for a good cause.

To this day I tremble at the prospect of her finding out the truth.

[Eryn]

Eryn, I don't have the most developed sense of humour in the world, and although I didn't think the stereotypical statements at the beginning were funny I can understand that when that sort of joke is offered up with a light heart and taken the same way, it doesn't have to harm others. The thing that really REALLY bothered me about it, was how so many of the posters on the first couple pages jumped on the 'women are hypocrites!' sort of bandwagon. One poster made a comment about how his ex who put on some weight was a 'weak minded bitch just like the rest of them.' The anger in that seared me down to the soul to read. I don't think jokes of any sort are all that funny if they encourage anger and hatred!

It's pretty hard to have humor of any kind without conflict and stereotypical male/female bickering has been around since Adam and Eve. I don't see the jokes in the OP to be particularly encouraging of anger and hatred, particularly when it became apparent that they were being used to illustrate the point.

Yes, a few folks jumped on the "women are hypocrites" bandwagon, but no more than the number of people that regularly jump on the "CDers are deceitful liars" bandwagon whenever that topic rolls around. We are a diverse culture and you will find people with all sorts of opinions. The beauty of our culture is that we tolerate that diversity of opinion. I was also offended about the comment concerning the woman's eating disorder. I now know more about the character of the individual who made that comment and therefore will not take that person as seriously as I do those who are more thoughtful. His comment, though, does not reflect on the other forum members posting to the thread unless they happened to agree with him. I don't recall anyone doing so.

[NicoleScott]

Well, the marriage vow is "To have and to hold, for better or worse, through sickness and health". I see nothing, not one damned thing about dumping FOR ANY REASON, yes not even infidelity.

Pythos, many traditional marriage vows contain "forsaking all others....", and that refers not only to sexual affairs, but anything or anyone that comes between husband and wife. Like parents, for example. No telling how many marriages have been wrecked by one party allowing (yes, allowing) a parent to drive a wedge between the couple. Anyway, I guess we shouldn't expect vows to include a "it's over if one of you cheats" statement.
Some people take the vows seriously, so seriously that if there's cheating, the marriage is irrepairably over. Just my 2 cents.

[Sophie86]

For many of the GGs who come to this board after being in a relationship for some time, yes. It can take some time to wrap your head around such an alien concept. I don't think there's anything wrong with that

No, I don't either. I just think that's where the focus should be.


I don't think that active lying is necessarily going to have to be the underlying issue here. I've seen plenty of relationships where there are issues without necessarily active lying, and sometimes each individual person in that marriage has issues and hangups they bring to the table.

Yeah, between you, Liz and Reine, you've managed to convince me that relationships are too varied to generalize about. I was thinking of a simplified case where the lying was passive, and the husband was otherwise truthful; and I wasn't considering any other problems that might complicate things. That being the case, all I'll ask is that we keep that need for nuance in mind when a crossdresser tells us he's having difficulties with his wife. :)


Was that addressed at what I had said about crossdressing being Crystal's secret? Honestly, it would make my life easier to not have something to guard my tongue over... but I completely understand that she is happier being hidden and I would NEVER want to jeopardize her happiness.

No, you made it clear before that you kept the secret for her benefit. There are some, though, who really want it kept in the closet.


Eryn, I don't have the most developed sense of humour in the world, and although I didn't think the stereotypical statements at the beginning were funny I can understand that when that sort of joke is offered up with a light heart and taken the same way, it doesn't have to harm others. The thing that really REALLY bothered me about it, was how so many of the posters on the first couple pages jumped on the 'women are hypocrites!' sort of bandwagon. One poster made a comment about how his ex who put on some weight was a 'weak minded bitch just like the rest of them.' The anger in that seared me down to the soul to read. I don't think jokes of any sort are all that funny if they encourage anger and hatred!

Well, I offered it with a light heart. I didn't expect that reaction. As you know, there are very few threads here that don't get at least some negative comments.

Thanks for your response. :)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I thought the intentions of the op were good
funny is so subjective anyway...

There is a blind spot in many CDs thoughts about this... It really is a lie to skip telling your life partner about this...for many, it's an innocent mistake , and it's hard to blame a cd for the deceit..Many CDs suffer a lot over it.. But it's IMPOSSIBLE to get uppity around your loved ones reaction...
.you have brought in an emotional distance that is very hurtful to your wife...it is a lack of respect for her feelings, and I don't know of a wife that wants that..

The other unpleasant truth is that the urge doesn't go away..it tends to get stronger...there is a strong sexual component for many, and many CDs I know fantasize about it during sex... How can you expect your wife to be unconcerned with this? Many CDs are slowly realizing they are ts, or in denial of being ts ...many CDs sneak out and take risks that they would not take as a guy, many CDs spend a significant amount of money on clothes, makeovers or storage for clothes, and extra days on business trips, this is real stuff...

You can argue that all this is the reason you don't out yourself.. And each of us can make this choice...But this is truly when you are flat out lying, and I feel sorry for your wife...and I especially feel sorry for her if she finds out herself, which is a risk you take if you keep quiet about it for an extended time....all this is to say that it's just so unfair to be critical of your wife's reaction, even if it seems harsh

[Huntress]

:love: ReineD. Good onya for keeping this thread in the game. I'm learning bunches and verifying quite a few "old" truths. I have with time participated here less and less due to the manifold Grumble & Bitch effects and the lack of support effect.

Refer to the Forum name.

This thread and the In the Closet thread have been superb in the support & education vein. I get enlightened effort from many posters and many views. Plus I get the petty diatribes from folks that point to avoiding them like a Japanese reactor. Occam's razor saves me from dealing with the foolish and greatly enhances my quality of life.

Thanks again.:thumbsup:

De Oppresso Liber,
Huntress

[Sophie86]

But it's IMPOSSIBLE to get uppity around your loved ones reaction...

Just to clarify, the guy whose thread originally inspired me wasn't the least bit "uppity" about his wife's reaction. He was worried that she was going to choose to divorce him, and he was looking for advice. What he got from some was moral condemnation.


The other unpleasant truth is that the urge doesn't go away..it tends to get stronger...there is a strong sexual component for many, and many CDs I know fantasize about it during sex... How can you expect your wife to be unconcerned with this? Many CDs are slowly realizing they are ts, or in denial of being ts ...many CDs sneak out and take risks that they would not take as a guy, many CDs spend a significant amount of money on clothes, makeovers or storage for clothes, and extra days on business trips, this is real stuff...

I feel pretty tame by comparison. I probably shouldn't judge what other people do by what I didn't do, but unless the person says so, I don't assume that he was carrying on to that extent. I have seen posts like that though. Next time, we get someone asking for advice about saving their marriage, I guess I'll ask just how much damage has been done.


all this is to say that it's just so unfair to be critical of your wife's reaction, even if it seems harsh

Is it really? Does she have carte blanche to react as harshly as she likes? Let's say a guy discovers that his wife has been cheating on him, and the two agree that they're going to try to stay together anyway. How harshly is he allowed to react, and still be judged reasonable? Some guys resort to murder, and that's definitely out of bounds, so we'll set that aside. But isn't there a certain level of harshness far short of that that is still just not productive if his intent is to save his marriage? She did a wrong thing, obviously, but just how much can he beat her over the head with it and expect her to stick around?

The difference, though, is that the wife can and should stop committing adultery, but a crossdresser really can't stop being a crossdresser. If the wife makes the decision to stay, then that's what she's signing up for. There are lots of issues that he can be flexible about in order to accommodate her comfort level, but there has to be an eventual cease fire when it comes to beating him over the head about the lying. A wife who continues to react harshly beyond a certain point isn't acting in a way that's going to save the marriage.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Sophie thanks for you response.

If ANY person is in a relationship and they are inconsistent in their behaviour,..its hard on the partner. Certainly if your spouse supports you for years and then all of sudden starts freaking out, its a problem...its unfair..but you are splitting hairs.
I was talking about her initial reaction to finding out her husband dresses...the thread is entitled LYING..not I dressed with support for many years, but now she's changed her tune..

We are all over the map in bahaviour...if you've never secretly spent money, if you've never had a sexual component to your dressing (really?), if you've never secretly dressed in her bedroom, if you've never felt the urge to dress is so strong it dominated your thinking, then you have a point...and its just a fact that there are alot of ts's coping with it by dressing..

The fact that we can't stop being dressers is not an excuse for treating the person we love poorly.

Looking at your last paragraph, I'd go exactly opposite and say a cheater can change...and that's what the wife hopes if she stays.. There are lots of issues a wife can "live with" and compromise about..and lots of behavours guys can change for their wives...its true...

But a dresser can't change, and to many wives that simple fact means that your dressing is more important to you than she is...and when you get caught it's even worse because she feels she can't trust you..

and that's what you are missing when you complain about unsupportive wives.

[Eryn]

But a dresser can't change, and to many wives that simple fact means that your dressing is more important to you than she is...

And, if she has done any studying on the subject of CDing, she is promoting a selfish and self-serving oversimplification in the face of strong contradictory evidence. I think that most wives see this clearly and immediately move beyond the "he loves dressing more than me" notion.

Consider a man whose wife smokes. He would like her to quit. She hasn't been able to quit because nicotine is a powerful addiction. She may never be able to do so. Does this mean that smoking is more important to her than her husband?

My wife is infinitely more important than my dressing, yet the dressing remains part of me. It isn't an either-or situation and I'm glad that my wife doesn't think of it in such a way.

[HairyBethCD]

I must admit, I'm quite disheartened by the lack of humour in this thread. People take things far too seriously. I thought the initial post was quite funny, if a little obvious in its targets. There appears to be an unwritten rule that it's fine to crack jokes about male traits but it's not at all OK to do the same on female ones. Is it really that offensive to joke about pooping hangups?

The thread has gone off on a few tangents, mainly from people who clearly have underlying issues but are blind to it and think it's everyone else who is wrong.

As for the original point of the thread, maybe I'm lucky but both myself and my wife are pretty laid back about things and the few times something has cropped up that was previously an unknown, the response from either side has usually been 'And that changes things how?' and we just get on with things. I can't think of anything she's likely to drop on me that would mean I felt she was no longer the person I wanted to be with. Sure, we have arguments, quite angry ones sometimes (usually at, you know, that time us blokes daren't ever mention that might affect any person living or dead's responses to situations) but we always get over it and usually laugh at it a few weeks later.

Pretty much nothing is worth getting that fussed about unless the relationship is already failing in which case the SO might want to use it as a reason to call it quits. In any half healthy relationship, you really just need to shrug and put it behind you.

FWIW, my SO isn't hugely interested in my CDing but accepts I need to do it so it happens when she's out. We still are able to be light hearted about it e.g. "I need some new lingerie, that's your specialist subject - go shopping for me!"

[Kaitlyn Michele]

And, if she has done any studying on the subject of CDing, she is promoting a selfish and self-serving oversimplification in the face of strong contradictory evidence. I think that most wives see this clearly and immediately move beyond the "he loves dressing more than me" notion.

Consider a man whose wife smokes. He would like her to quit. She hasn't been able to quit because nicotine is a powerful addiction. She may never be able to do so. Does this mean that smoking is more important to her than her husband?

My wife is infinitely more important than my dressing, yet the dressing remains part of me. It isn't an either-or situation and I'm glad that my wife doesn't think of it in such a way.

you have a good point about smoking..and if someone sneaks around and smokes on their wife when she demands you stop..that's sneaking around and lying too.. and yes if he demands her to quit, then thats an issue if she sneaks around..

if your wife is good with your dressing..it doesnt speak to the issue.

if your wife isn't good with it, she has every right to demand you stop...she didnt know about this when she got married.

if your wife doesnt support you because she is hurt/angry/betrayed/ashamed/sad/repulsed/disgusted or whatever, and you continue to crossdress then you are putting your need to dress above her feelings. and her feelings about the marraige should be the single most important thing..

your situation is terrific and i am happy for you and your wife..

if you take my comments the wrong way, you would think i'm against dressing..i'm not..its a tough situation when a guy finds more and more that he feels the need to dress and to feel feminine and he knows his wife wouldn't like it..
and i feel a wife is well served by doing her research and hopefully concluding it will be ok..
but if a wife doesnt feel that way, she has every reason to wonder what else you are keeping from her, and it's not her "fault", she isn't doing anything "wrong", and it doesnt make her "not worth it"...which are all things i've seen people call unsupportive wives over the years...

breezily concluding for your own benefit that its nothing to get fussed about is a good example of totally missing the point....

[Sophie86]

Certainly if your spouse supports you for years and then all of sudden starts freaking out, its a problem...its unfair..but you are splitting hairs.
I was talking about her initial reaction to finding out her husband dresses...the thread is entitled LYING..not I dressed with support for many years, but now she's changed her tune..

I was talking about from the initial reaction forward, not something that happens several years after the first revelation. It seems to me that whether it's the cheater scenario or crossdressing, the SO gets a certain amount of time to be upset about the lying and then he or she has to move on. How much time? I dunno, but it's not productive to get stuck in that place.


We are all over the map in bahaviour...if you've never secretly spent money

As a matter of fact, I didn't, but as it happens we split the bills back in those days and any money that was leftover was ours to spend without having to consult each other. For several years after we started pooling money, we still allowed ourselves a certain amount for discretionary spending. It's only recently that we stopped doing that and now for anything over $10-$20 I need a purchase order, which I dutifully apply for and generously receive whenever I want to buy girly things.

Point being, different couples have different financial arrangements and the concept of "secretly spending money" may not apply in all cases.


if you've never had a sexual component to your dressing (really?)

I said I felt tame, I didn't say I felt innocent. ;)


if you've never secretly dressed in her bedroom

Umm... Only on my half...


if you've never felt the urge to dress is so strong it dominated your thinking, then you have a point...

Yes, I went through a period when it felt like a compulsion. I got better.

But look, you were listing things like fantasizing about it during sex, spending significant amounts of money, sneaking out, taking risks, purchasing makeovers, maintaining separate storage facilities, and masking transsexual desires. By that standard, I feel pretty tame. Does that clarify my statement?


But a dresser can't change, and to many wives that simple fact means that your dressing is more important to you than she is...

That's the "If you really loved me, you would _______" game, and it's not something couples should do to each other. You can't use a spouse's willingness to give up something they enjoy as a test of their love. A wife can ask her CDing husband to make all sorts of compromises for the sake of her comfort level, but demanding that he simply stop is unfair. She can do it, and he can try, but it will be at the price of his happiness and the long-term health of the marriage.


and that's what you are missing when you complain about unsupportive wives.

Well, first, I'm not complaining, I'm discussing; and second, I'm not discussing unsupportive wives, per se. I'm discussing wives who get stuck in a certain place where they can't get over the fact that the guy lied. If the goal is to stay together, there has to be forgiveness for the past and a willingness to set that aside in order to work on the future. I understand from what some of the GGs have said that the lying part affects different SOs differently. My initial thinking was that a month was a bit long to still be upset about it. That was based on the fact that my wife didn't spend as much as a minute on it. I get that there are different dynamics in relationships, though, so I'm backing off of that. Pick a time period. Six months? A year? Five years? Assuming that he's doing what he ought to do to make things right, I think five years would be a bit much.

[Eryn]

...she didnt know about this when she got married.

I wanted to touch upon this concept since it pops up again and again. It is a myth that crossdressers get married with a malicious intent of springing their CDing on their new spouses after they are trapped. How many twentysomethings can plan a year ahead, let alone a decade or two?

The reality is that many of us weren't aware enough to understand what CDing was before marriage. Nobody knows every single nuance of themselves and we cannot express things we don't understand to our prospective spouse.

Looking at the age thread, over half of us here are aged 50-70. The younger, most internet-savvy segment of the population is very underrepresented on this forum. Why aren't the youngsters here? Likely it's because they are confused about their feelings and haven't yet come to grips with the fact that they are CDers. These confused people are also the very same ones who are currently getting married!

You can't really expect either twentysomething to say "Dear, why don't we put our wedding on hold for a decade or three while I sort out all of my little nagging internal issues?" Nope, couples just jump in, which is likely why they included that "for better or worse" line in the vows. People change over time and sometimes the change is not what either of them expected.

[lizlizzie]

Sophie:

How long is too long? It's going to vary depending on the people involved. Is the husband willing to slow down and let the wife catch up? That would have certainly affected how long it took me. Before you tell your wife, have you researched not only what it means to you, but places she can find information? I have heard many other spouses, together with myself, raise the issue of lack of information or support groups for us. Finding information while initially in shock and then trying to keep doing the day to day things like working and taking care of my kids and spouse, didn't leave me a lot of time for research. Have you followed up the initial disclosure with honest conversation. And whether you like it or not, it shakes our foundation and we question does he love me, does he want me, does this mean he is gay or transitioning, and if you dress very differently from me then does that mean you don't like how I dress and how I look. Reassurances of love and attraction are needed in large doses.

Provide us resources to learn, provide us reassurance, show us your committment to us, be honest in everything going on, don't go crazy buying clothes and make up that the family can't afford, and if a year has gone by and your wife hasn't accepted things, then I would suggest you aren't going to have active support from her, though she may be willing to live with it. Other spouses may have a different opinion although I suspect that most of us will say you are crazy if you think we are going to no longer be upset within a month. My statement presumes that in the meantime you haven't experienced other life-changing issues. My spouse lost her job 9 months after she told me. The financial situation created additional resentment on both sides.

From experience, forgiveness is easier than forgetting/accepting.

[Rianna Humble]

I wanted to touch upon this concept since it pops up again and again. It is a myth that crossdressers get married with a malicious intent of springing their CDing on their new spouses after they are trapped. How many twentysomethings can plan a year ahead, let alone a decade or two?

You are the only person introducting the concept of malicious intent to "spring" CD'ing on someone.

How far ahead do you need to plan to know that you have been cross-dressing for the last 10 or 15 years? Form the introductions I have seen that is a low estimate for someone in their mid 20s.


The reality is that many of us weren't aware enough to understand what CDing was before marriage. Nobody knows every single nuance of themselves and we cannot express things we don't understand to our prospective spouse.

The vast majority of introductions here say something like "I have been cross-dressing since I was 6" although that age figure can vary by a coule of years either way. Are you honestly trying to tell me that someone who has been cross-dressing since that age and who is now in their 20s does not understand what cross-dressing is? I would buy the argument that many do not understand why they cross-dress, but I do not buy the argument that after 125 years you are unaware of what you are doing, or how you think about clothes.


Looking at the age thread, over half of us here are aged 50-70. The younger, most internet-savvy segment of the population is very underrepresented on this forum. Why aren't the youngsters here? Likely it's because they are confused about their feelings and haven't yet come to grips with the fact that they are CDers. These confused people are also the very same ones who are currently getting married!

I disagree with your reason why there are few 20 somehtings in this part of the forum, but I'm pretty sure that no-one in the Young Members' Forum is much over 25. My guess about why they are not posting so much in the main forum is that they get bored with the older members' threads. Either that, or maybe some are using Facebook to socialise with other CDs/TS's and don't feel the need of a specialised forum. In my experience, the younger cross-dressers and transsexuals have enough information to know that they are not freaks and also to know that they are unlikely to stop being CD or TS.


You can't really expect either twentysomething to say "Dear, why don't we put our wedding on hold for a decade or three while I sort out all of my little nagging internal issues?"

I don't know where you get this idea that you need to postpone your wedding for decades in order to be honest with your chosen spouse about an activity that you have already been doing for over a decade.

[Sophie86]

Liz,

In saying that there should be a time limit, I meant for being upset about the lying itself. Are you saying that being able to forgive the lying depends on being able to come to grips with the crossdressing?

[Babeba]

Just to clarify, the guy whose thread originally inspired me wasn't the least bit "uppity" about his wife's reaction. He was worried that she was going to choose to divorce him, and he was looking for advice. What he got from some was moral condemnation.

There are lots of issues that he can be flexible about in order to accommodate her comfort level, but there has to be an eventual cease fire when it comes to beating him over the head about the lying. A wife who continues to react harshly beyond a certain point isn't acting in a way that's going to save the marriage.

I really feel so badly for the CD who inspired this thread... losing a relationship is very hard. It can't be made any easier at all by other anonymous internet posters getting on their high horses and passing judgement on your actions. That sort of action is definitely not support or helping.

As to the point at which some wives can't get past the lying and that adds to the harm in a relationship - it's okay to get someone else's thoughts. Counselors can help many different people at many different stages of dealing with issues. So often we see suggestions on here for a couple to look for a therapist for the gender side of things, but it's likely many couples would also benefit from a little professional clarity on the trusting each other issue.


It's pretty hard to have humor of any kind without conflict and stereotypical male/female bickering has been around since Adam and Eve. I don't see the jokes in the OP to be particularly encouraging of anger and hatred, particularly when it became apparent that they were being used to illustrate the point.

I was also offended about the comment concerning the woman's eating disorder. I now know more about the character of the individual who made that comment and therefore will not take that person as seriously as I do those who are more thoughtful. His comment, though, does not reflect on the other forum members posting to the thread unless they happened to agree with him. I don't recall anyone doing so.


Eryn, I really do agree with you on these points! I completely understand why Sophie wrote the OP, trying to use humour to get into a very serious topic sometimes makes the discussion easier, sometimes it misses its mark. I refrained from posting in this thread until the tone had turned less woman-bashing as I didn't appreciate that tone - it didn't take very long, only a couple of pages. I think more the reason why this far in the thread I wanted to be clear that one post in particular really affected me was the fact it still felt a bit raw to think of it, and sometimes letting actions or words go by feels like tacit approval. I didn't want anyone who had read that to think that somehow it fit in as an 'okay' or 'normal' attitude about women.


I must admit, I'm quite disheartened by the lack of humour in this thread. People take things far too seriously. I thought the initial post was quite funny, if a little obvious in its targets. There appears to be an unwritten rule that it's fine to crack jokes about male traits but it's not at all OK to do the same on female ones. Is it really that offensive to joke about pooping hangups?


HairyBeth, I have nooo problem with poop jokes! (stinky) Bombs away! :-)

Rianna,

I think that many of the CDs on here take a long time to come to grips with parts of their own selves regardless of when the first time they felt the urge to try on female clothes was, or the moment that they actually wore something. I honestly feel that in relationships started today, 2011, there are really no good reasons for not discussing with an SO major issues such as CDing when they firm up or form, or when a couple begins to get really serious; there is just so much information out there and so many stories to show us that telling early can save so much grief. On the other hand, those couples who have been together 20-50 years have a lot of extenuating circumstances that may crop up, up to and including the CDing partner thinking that the urge to CD would just go away for good when they were in a serious relationship. You're right, maybe a lot of the younger CDs are open and on FB and more tech savvy and self-accepting... but at the root of things, they're still boys and therefore a group animal when they are learning their gender identities and self esteem. I'd like to think most under-25 CDers just don't need support - but somehow I fear that Eryn is right at least in part.

[Sophie86]

Are you honestly trying to tell me that someone who has been cross-dressing since that age and who is now in their 20s does not understand what cross-dressing is?

Please tell me: What is crossdressing? Is it a psychological illness? Is it a sin? Is it a fetish? Is it a perversion? Is it a kind of bizarre way of getting oneself off? Or is it just a way to relax? Is it a way to get in touch with one's feminine side, perhaps? Or is it an indication that one has a subconscious desire to transition and live life as a woman?

If you can answer that question for each individual here, you need to hang out a shingle and start doing therapy.

[Eryn]

You are the only person introducting the concept of malicious intent to "spring" CD'ing on someone.

Well, if a CDer is being accused of concealing the truth before marriage, lying, and therefore hurting their spouse by not revealing CDing until decades into the marriage there is obviously malicious intent.

A lot of us have memories of cross-dressing "roots" in their youth. I do as well. I had no concept, however, that what I did had a name, it was just an inordinate interest in things feminine. How does an inexperienced twentysomething male who is already testosterone-impaired separate an fascination in feminine items from the normal biological facination in females? To me they were one and the same. Of course I was very aware of the societal edict that "Men Never Discuss Such Things" and I dutifully obeyed. My point is that the act of trying on a pair of Mommy's pantyhose at age 5, 10, or 15 does not mean that a person internally acknowledges that they are a crossdresser from that moment forward. They might spend decades pushing those feeling into the deepest recesses of their minds before reality catches up with them.

You may well be right that some CDers in their 20s are more comfortable and accepted than when I was in my 20s. Our culture has changed markedly. I don't doubt, though, that others are feeling pretty much the same thing I experienced. Old prejudices die hard and I really don't see FB to be a reason that younger, computer savvy people aren't here in nearly the numbers expected. I'm on some car forums and the age demographic is actually stronger in the 20-40 segment than it is in the 50-70 segment and FB exists for these folks as well.


I don't know where you get this idea that you need to postpone your wedding for decades in order to be honest with your chosen spouse about an activity that you have already been doing for over a decade.

You do if the standard of honesty is that you have to resolve all internal doubts before marriage. I'm a reasonably well-educated person, yet for some reason I didn't really understand or come to terms with CDing until nearly two decades into my marriage. Life got in the way.

Maybe they should have a large committee compile an extensive list of "sins" and give both prospective spouses a polygraph test before marriage:

...
533. Have you ever been late with your rent check?
534. Has anyone complained that you snore?
535. Do you really want 2 children?
536. Have you ever worn clothing of the opposite sex?
537. Have you ever gotten drunk?
538. Do you step on spiders?
...

[ReineD]

Please tell me: What is crossdressing? Is it a psychological illness? Is it a sin? Is it a fetish? Is it a perversion? Is it a kind of bizarre way of getting oneself off? Or is it just a way to relax? Is it a way to get in touch with one's feminine side, perhaps? Or is it an indication that one has a subconscious desire to transition and live life as a woman?

I haven't been keeping up with this thread too much, other than scan for flaming. :p Frankly, I think it's a circular argument. It won't be resolved, simply because the subject is too broad, there are too many factors that come into play, and everyone is approaching it from their own personal perspective.

Having said this and in answer to what you've just posted, I can only say that my SO told me about the CDing in the very beginning. He sent me a link that gave me a summary definition. As we got to know one another better, I had a lot of questions. There were many that he could not answer, and when he didn't know the answers, he just told me so.

It's understandable when a spouse doesn't have all the definitions for himself. But, not having a perfect handle on the CDing should not preclude someone from telling his partner about it, providing of course he has a feeling that it is not going away. But again, I'm sure you'll come back with an example about a CDer who is at the very beginning of his exploration and who hasn't even had the thought of completely dressing yet. If you do, it will prove my point that it is impossible to come to a meeting of the minds about this since again, there are just too many variables. :p

[Rianna Humble]

Please tell me: What is crossdressing? Is it a psychological illness? Is it a sin? Is it a fetish? Is it a perversion? Is it a kind of bizarre way of getting oneself off? Or is it just a way to relax? Is it a way to get in touch with one's feminine side, perhaps? Or is it an indication that one has a subconscious desire to transition and live life as a woman?

If you can answer that question for each individual here, you need to hang out a shingle and start doing therapy.

Try asking the right question. You were not asking "What" but "Why". Funnily enough the two words do not mean the same thing.

You knew what you were doing even if - as I said earlier - you did not know why.

At my most charitable, I would have to rate your answer as disingenuous.

[Sophie86]

At my most charitable, I would have to rate your answer as disingenuous.

That's exactly what I thought about your response to Eryn. When she said, "many of us weren't aware enough to understand what CDing was before marriage," did you really think she meant we didn't know it was wearing the clothing of the opposite sex? It looked to me like you were taking advantage of the way she worded the statement to score an easy (yet irrelevant) point.

What I got from Eryn's statement was this: The reality is we don't understand why we do it, we don't understand what it means about who we are, and we don't understand what it portends about our future. Ashamed of it, we explain it to ourselves in the most minimalist, dismissive terms possible, and hope like hell that we're going to grow out of it.

In the meantime, we don't tell anyone, because once you tell someone, that's who you will be to that person forever. Every time they look at you, that's what they will see. I did not want to be the guy who got his jollies by dressing like a girl to anyone, but especially not to her.

[Eryn]

...What I got from Eryn's statement was this: The reality is we don't understand why we do it, we don't understand what it means about who we are, and we don't understand what it portends about our future. Ashamed of it, we explain it to ourselves in the most minimalist, dismissive terms possible, and hope like hell that we're going to grow out of it.

In the meantime, we don't tell anyone, because once you tell someone, that's who you will be to that person forever...

Sophie, one reason I like to participate in conversations like this is that every once in a while someone helps me to understand more about myself. Your interpretation of my statement helped me to do just that. Thank you!

Hugs, Eryn

[ReineD]

In the meantime, we don't tell anyone, because once you tell someone, that's who you will be to that person forever. Every time they look at you, that's what they will see. I did not want to be the guy who got his jollies by dressing like a girl to anyone, but especially not to her.

It is true that the CDing is an important facet of my SO, but so are other aspects of his personality, his chosen profession, and all his other likes and dislikes. When I think of my SO all of these things form the whole. I don't strictly see him as a CDer since he is so many other things too. I'm guessing this is true for other GGs who are in relationships with CDers, given some adjustment time after the initial disclosure, of course. :)

One thing you've said sends up a flag for me: the fact that you didn't want to be diminished in your wife's eyes. I've read many posts in this forum since I've joined and this is a common sentiment among the CDers who haven't come out to their wives. Might this be an important reason for the non-disclosure?

Honestly, I think that women are much more forgiving than men in this regard. I don't think we are as trans/homophobic. Just read all the stories from the CDers in this forum who go out and interact with GGs and who seldom experience issues with them. Either a wife will accept, or she won't. If she does, she will not begin to see her husband as a woman (or a man who wants to be a woman, or a "pervert" as you suggest) just because he CDs, unless of course he cannot achieve a balance with it and he wants to spend most of his time either dressed or engaged in CDing related activities.

[sallyissuper]

I am so thankful my spouse knows and is very supportive. We went and had a manicure together at her suggestion and I had a fullset of nails and polish done. It was fun! Things were much more difficult before I told her.

[Lorileah]

In the meantime, we don't tell anyone, because once you tell someone, that's who you will be to that person forever. Every time they look at you, that's what they will see. I did not want to be the guy who got his jollies by dressing like a girl to anyone, but especially not to her.

How little credit you give others on this. You are not just one thing, you are an amalgam of everything. Even if you think of yourself as a bad person (which is what your statement reflects) this is not the whole of how a person sees you, especially a person who loves you. If your marriage maintains you to always be the knight on the white charger then one day that charger is going to throw you. You may maintain that illusion (which I believe is the crux of the OP) for only so long.

I am many things to many people and many of those things I know are illusions the other person has built. My best friend insists that I wore all white the first time he saw me 'en femme'. I have one white dress and it has had a broken zipper since the first time I thought I could get into it, so I know that isn't true. But I won't dispel that idea. On the same subject, since I came out to that same friend he has added the crossdressing to his list of who I am and he doesn't dwell on it. He does joke (just as he jokes about my bad golf game) but he has also asked questions that were to help him see what it is I am. My SO's have always seen me as a whole person and not just a "man"nequin in women's clothing. If nothing else on these boards I would like to be able to help at least one person see that the fears that they harbor over all this can be far worse than the reality. The fear that you will be looked at differently...well that happens every day. Every day you add to how those around you perceive you. I wonder, is being seen as
the guy who got his jollies by dressing like a girl worse than the guy who sneaked around and hid something from his spouse?

[Sophie86]

How little credit you give others on this.

I believe I know my wife better than you do. You can't possibly imagine how hung up she was when we met. That's not just me saying that either. When she looks back on it now, she says, "Damn, I was really hung up." She has said more than once that if I had told her about myself back then, it would have made her run the other way, whereas now she's perfectly fine. She has done a huge amount of growing in the intervening years, as have I. You could say we have grown up together. Speaking of which...


Even if you think of yourself as a bad person (which is what your statement reflects)

I thought of myself as a bad person. I thought I was weak and unmanly. I now think differently.


this is not the whole of how a person sees you, especially a person who loves you.

To me, it seemed like a very small part of who I was, but I did not think anyone else would be able to see it that way.


If nothing else on these boards I would like to be able to help at least one person see that the fears that they harbor over all this can be far worse than the reality.

A noble goal, which I fully support. I don't advise anyone to do what I did. Take the risk, and tell her.


I wonder, is being seen as worse than the guy who sneaked around and hid something from his spouse?

Fortunately, she's not bothered about either one. :)

[sometimes_miss]

AS for the quiting of the CDing how naive can some of you be.
I just have to respond to this one.
It's that hindsight is 20/20 vision. Sure, NOW we know it isn't something we can quit. But I was able to successfully go without crossdressing for many years at a time when everything else in my life was going well; so I logically thought I would be able to do it indefinitely should things continue, well, well enough. I mean my life was never perfect, but as long as things were going reasonably normal there wasn't an issue. However I lost my job, had to take another at 40% of the previous salary, wound up working and going to school every single day and evening of the week, so the stress level went through the roof, and my support system collapsed. So it was only when I was already having trouble in the marriage that the crossdressing reared it's head again.

[Babeba]

How little credit you give others on this...
If nothing else on these boards I would like to be able to help at least one person see that the fears that they harbor over all this can be far worse than the reality. The fear that you will be looked at differently...well that happens every day. Every day you add to how those around you perceive you. I wonder, is being seen as worse than the guy who sneaked around and hid something from his spouse?

Lorileah, I know that you have got a great deal of common sense, and with talking about fears I think you've hit on a very important nub.

It is SO hard to control an emotional reaction to things. Rationally, I am incredibly loving and supportive of Crystal. Occasionally, emotionally, I find myself overwhelmed by something that just catches me off guard. We human beings are emotional creatures. It is so hard to overcome that sometimes. I once had the sight of my boyfriend's painted toes throw me into panic mode, despite the fact that rationally I knew having them painted or not changed nothing about who he was as a person. Similarly, I'm waaay too embarrassed to let him read stories I wrote when I was younger, despite the fact that rationally I know he's not going to despise me as a person if they're not to his taste. You can know facts in your head all your life long; that doesn't mean that the pit in your stomach will feel that same sentiment.

Thinking of younger CDs, there's at least one other forum I can think of which is used by some pretty young TGs (mainly TS) on Gaia.com. Well, it's a thread in a forum, but it has a lot of great links and a long list of regulars. I'm sure there are other places out there as well.