Feminism interfering with crossdressing?

[Lip5tick_Li5a]

I may be alone in this. But as I become more learned about feminism and women in general, crossdressing loses a lot of its appeal (except maybe on Halloween). Especially considering how cliched many CDs are in their imitation of women.

I can't claim any moral high ground there. In one of my pictures, I posed cuddling a high heel shoe with a lipstick kiss on it. Ironically, obsession with shoes is something that I can't stand in GG (and one of many reasons I hate Carrie Bradshaw). The GG friend who gave me the shoes was a shoe lover though, and the pic was for her.

I think I'm reaching a point where I don't see the purpose in crossdressing anymore because I just don't view the genders as very different. And the exaggerated femininity CDs put out isn't something I would admire in a GG (no more than I admire extreme masculinity).

Perhaps it's because I lack a transvestic fetish as a motivating factor?

Another thing happened when I visited a nightclub featuring drag performers: gay men acting out a rather absurd and offensive portrayal of women. Although I was at the show with GG friends who weren't bothered by it, something felt wrong to me. It seemed like a misogynistic display put on by men who don't desire women and may be jealous of them. Then when I got back to the Internet, the CDs I saw seemed an awful lot like drag queens. There is this major emphasis on stockings, heels, makeup and other such things that modern women in real life avoid wearing. I daresay I feel more connection to my female friends by NOT being a CD.

I could just be horribly off-base, and exhibiting prejudice and malice of my own. But at the moment, I really feel like I'm slipping away from being a CD to an ex-CD.

Thoughts?

[GaleWarning]

There are many CDers who are intent on blending in and who are in no way interested in emulating exaggerated forms of female dressing or weird portrayals of women. You are certainly not alone in rejecting drag artists' portrayal of women, or feminists' efforts to deny that women have a real and important role to play as home makers.

The point of crossdressing in a true CDer is exactly this: we have no idea why we are compelled to crossdress. It is simply something we are driven to do.

My advice would be to simply accept the person you are, and stop agonising over those aspects of this community with which you feel at odds.

[AllieSF]

Well stated Clayfish. It could be that maybe you are not a CD, but someone who is just exploring this side of yourself. So, please do not knock those that do enjoy dressing in whatever form that they choose. Also, the urges to dress come and go for many of us. The more you learn and experiment your attitude can change. Give it time. Enjoy what you do. If you have no desire to dress, just stop. That is your choice.

[VioletJourney]

I know what you mean, and I've noticed many crossdressers can be rather chauvinistic. If I had a nickel for every time someone liked to do "woman's work" while dressed... but feminism isn't necessarily about clothing or appearance, it's about equal opportunity and equal treatment. It's about being women but getting to do everything men can do, not actually being men.

[Danni Renee]

I am not certain I completely agree here. I can only speak for myself of course but I do not think equating all crossdressers with drag performers is the right comparison. Yes there are some members of the forum here who are overly obssessed with clothing and shoes but I know more than a few GGs and GM that are that way as well - it is not a gender issue as much as other issues (if an issue at all).

There are some CDs who do put out an exaggerated feminine form but from my experience that is an exception, not the rule. Most CDs I have seen here simply want to fit in and be comfortable in their own skin. They are not out looking to turn heads or cause a stir - in fact most would prefer to simply be left alone to be as they are.

I will not say you are horribly off base. You have your experiences and they point to something you do not like. But I think there is more out there and more to most of our urges to dress than you are taking into account.

In the end I hope you are simply happy with yourself, whether you choose to dress or not. That is all I am hoping for me too.

[Kate Simmons]

While I have no problem with empowered women, I do have a problem with CD's who think they have to "de-power" tmemselves to portray woman, Nothing is really accomplished by this and therin lies the reason for a lot of the objections for doing it.:)

[Rianna Humble]

I think I'm reaching a point where I don't see the purpose in crossdressing anymore because I just don't view the genders as very different. And the exaggerated femininity CDs put out isn't something I would admire in a GG (no more than I admire extreme masculinity).

If you are entering a phase where cross-dressing seems unimportant to you, then perhaps you should consider putting away the clothing until (if ever) you feel the need to dress again. I feel sorry for you if you do not understand that there are very real differences between genders, feminists do understand the difference.

There are very many different types of cross-dressers and both their presentation and their motivations differ. Your dismissal of cross-dressers is in itself a cliché.


Perhaps it's because I lack a transvestic fetish as a motivating factor?

Perhaps this is the nub of your negativity, you equate all cross-dressers with those who do it for sexual gratification.

[Sue101]

Hi Lisa

Looks like you just had a wake-up call and realized something that was staring you in the face but you could not see it. I had similar thoughts many years ago. My notion is that most crossdressers are not truly transgendered meaning half male/half female rather they are men who have found enjoyment in emulating very specific looks and roles of women for their own satisfaction whether that is emotional or sexual.

Once this becomes apparent then the behavior no longer looks as noble or empathic as it is often presented. As other have said there are different types of crossdressers with different motivations but the largest group b y far is the one you are discussing.

You don't have to crossdress if you want to see life from a female perspective. The problem we have as men is that we are socialized not to attempt that journey so few men do. However, crossdressers should be doing this since the point of crossdressing is to switch gender roles. But in truth many CDs are really just in it for self-centered highs and have no interest in becoming a woman or developing empathy with women's issues.

The important thing is you should decide for yourself what crossdressing means to you and work out how to put it to good use to become a better person. If crossdressing makes it easier for you to abandon bad male habits and develop good female habits then focus on these goals and ignore what others are doing. Define yourself, don't let others do it for you.

[Joanagreenleaf]

Most things follow the 80/20 rule, meaning you can usually say something like, "80% of our business comes from 20% of our customers."

In the CD world you could probably say, "20% of CDers have a clue, the rest are blithering idiots when it comes to self knowledge, self acceptance, and an ability to fit into life.

Panty sniffers, high voice gigglers, "girlie girls," etc. are the bane of all the rest of us in the CD/TG/TS/Gay/Lesbian/Straight world.

Some people aren't "normal" no matter where they show up... Unless you want to say, "They're normally clueless, self-destructive, and, unhelpful."

I think your observations and instincts are correct. You'll now identify with/like a much smaller part of the world you've been seeing - but you and the planet will be the better for it.

[Debb]

Not sure I'd call the 80% blithering idiots, but I mostly agree with Joannegreenleaf above.

Actually, now that I think of it, I don't care about percentages. Yes, there are some cross-dressers who fetishize, who are almost into drag ... but we've seen relatively few here.

Yes, there are some cross-dressers who tend to stereotype, sometimes in a negative fashion. Many of them do not seem to realize they're doing it -- does that mean we should condemn them, or perhaps try to educate them? I say, if they're not doing others harm, let them alone -- they're adults, and they need the opportunity to see the light for themselves, just as we've had the opportunity to see the light.

There are even some of us who'd just like to fit in -- not "pass", mind you, but fit into the world, feeling pretty. They shouldn't have to dress down to make it possible for us to tolerate them.

Yes, there are a lot of cross-dressers who are "immature" in this girly world, who dress rather outrageously for their age, who may put some of us to shame. I think that really, the shame is our own problem; if we want to be accepted as who we are, we need to make the effort to not feel ashamed of others or ourselves.

There are differences between males and females. I feel that mostly, the differences are on the outside, but that doesn't necessarily make them superficial.

[Violetgray]

I may be alone in this. But as I become more learned about feminism and women in general, crossdressing loses a lot of its appeal (except maybe on Halloween). Especially considering how cliched many CDs are in their imitation of women.

I'm not sure why this should affect simple, victimless pleasure like your crossdressing. This seems like you attach other aspects to it that don't necessarily qualify.


I can't claim any moral high ground there. In one of my pictures, I posed cuddling a high heel shoe with a lipstick kiss on it. Ironically, obsession with shoes is something that I can't stand in GG (and one of many reasons I hate Carrie Bradshaw). The GG friend who gave me the shoes was a shoe lover though, and the pic was for her.

That seems like a strange thing to hate in a woman. And I've never thought of taking a picture like that, but it's wrong how exactly?


I think I'm reaching a point where I don't see the purpose in crossdressing anymore because I just don't view the genders as very different. And the exaggerated
femininity CDs put out isn't something I would admire in a GG (no more than I admire extreme masculinity).

I don't think whether the genders are different or not necessarily has anything to do with crossdressing. I put the clothes, the wig, the makeup because I like how everything looks and I, like everyone, want to be beautiful.


Perhaps it's because I lack a transvestic fetish as a motivating factor?
Hm.. This begs the question if you lack a "transvestic fetish" as a motivating factor, and you believe that's what it takes, then how come you were a crossdresser in the first place?


Another thing happened when I visited a nightclub featuring drag performers: gay men acting out a rather absurd and offensive portrayal of women. Although I was at the show with GG friends who weren't bothered by it, something felt wrong to me. It seemed like a misogynistic display put on by men who don't desire women and may be jealous of them. Then when I got back to the Internet, the CDs I saw seemed an awful lot like drag queens. There is this major emphasis on stockings, heels, makeup and other such things that modern women in real life avoid wearing. I daresay I feel more connection to my female friends by NOT being a CD.

An appreciation of heels, stockings and makeup does NOT make you a misogynist. Keep in mind, also that GG's grow up with the idea that wearing these things is o.k., and so can afford to take them for granted.


I could just be horribly off-base, and exhibiting prejudice and malice of my own. But at the moment, I really feel like I'm slipping away from being a CD to an ex-CD.

Thoughts?

It sounds to me like you're going through the growing pains of what it means to be a cd. When a girl reaches 14 or so, she's just starting to get real breasts, just getting to wear all the things that the adult women wear. In other words she's just starting to come into her womanhood, and she's playing with it, experimenting, enjoying. It would seem that a lot of us spend a lot of time in this stage, and I think that for many the mindset is similar because the growth of our feminine sides was stunted by society.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you are wayyyyy overthinking it OP!

lots of buzzwords like misogynist, offensive portrayal, and fetishistic in your post...you sound like you took a your first day of class in feminist school....

put the clothes away, see what happens..

[Valerie1973]

The whole idea to dress or pass or just fit in is a battle some struggle with contently. This is a crazy business we're in and everyone has their reason or unknown reason but we all have our own journey. So, at what point do you feel that is it just clothes and you're just a boy in a dress or is the need and desire to be femme more than just clothes? I'm somewhere in the middle of that. I feel sometimes that I'm just a boy in a dress, even with all the effort I put in to transformation then thats when, I'm not sure, the pink fog sets in or my femme sets in and the woman within is released or is it all just my transvestic fetish's. I believe the clothes do make the woman. Sometimes the woman can move an outfit, however, for me anyway, the dress moves me. Be well my friends, what ever blows your skirt up.

[Karren H]

Obviously you crossdressing for some different reason than I do because I don't have the choice of it loosing its appeal.... And its not a fetish to me.... Plus what I wear doesn't reflect negatively on other women or women in general, imho... And I have never dressed for Halloween...

[Barbra P]

I think you are using way too wide a brush to paint with. I don’t consider Drag Queens as crossdressers per se, yes they dress in women’s clothes but they do it as a stage act and they wear exaggerated clothes and makeup to enhance their Stage Presence. I recently went to a meeting of a local support group held in a meeting room of a well known restaurant chain, and there was not one person there wearing inappropriate clothing. I doubt that most of the patrons in restaurant even noticed them as they walked through the restaurant.

No offense intended, just curious, do you take this same cognoscenti approach to other aspects of your life or just crossdressing?

[Donna June]

I think there are still a lot of women who enjoy dressing and being very feminine. As for me, I do try to be "girly girl". I hope I don't overdo it.

[Pythos]

I can see some of your point. I too get dismayed when I see someone that is emulating a characture of a female. HUGE breasts, ridiculous makeup, silly prancing walk, wearing clothing that makes one look like a baby (rare), super high pitched voices, and so on.

But this is not all crossdressers. This is just the groups that are seen by the public due to the rest of us HIDING!! (lol).

What the public sees for the most part are the insulting, stereotypical versions of what we do.

I for one really don't want to completely blend in. I don't want to join the morass of women that have chosen to wear jeans all the time. I want to wear the styles that I like because I like them, and I feel I look good in them, in either mode.

You should enjoy the act, and not need to feel like emulating some characature of women. Basically all I do is take me, and put the clothes on. I am pretty much the same person, no matter how I am dressed.

Other images I dislike are the Damsel in distress, the school girl all tied up, as well as the female that the only purpose of is to satisfy a man, along with many other portrayals of women completely non-empowering situations. I usually portray myself in a neutral to empowered manner. I frankly don't get people that get turned on by seeing a woman tied up to the point of immobility. (aside from the show of trust the woman is displaying to her lover in the case of S&M, which begs the question, why is such a "test" needed?)

However, something about feminism is that in actuality it is for equality (unless it is of the radical variety). Frankly I think it is a really bad title for a noble cause, which was essentially leveling of the playing field FOR ALL, not just for women. For men to take a few steps down and for women to take a few steps up. Unfortunately as we all know the male side did not really take any steps down, and anything associated with women on a male makes that male less than human. Why instead of calling it feminist they called it humanist, I don't know.

Hosiery, skirts, and bras are not meant to be "torture" devices as many radical feminists have stated they are. I personally LOVE hosiery, on myself and on GGs. It enhances legs, can add variety if patterned, and they do feel good to wear for some people. Skirts I think are eminently practical, I to this day have no idea why men do not have skirts as part of their wardrobe. As far as bras...EVERY woman I have known has clearly stated that if they did not wear them, their breasts would be to their knees. This was not males telling me this, this was from women I have known. You know how guys get a kick out of breasts bouncing...well the large ones apparently hurt like hell if they are not supported.

There are some "fun" outfits that I do like, one being the "sexy" french maid, but it is only the look I like. I have no want of a woman dressed like that serving me hand and foot (unless she wants to). I also like the Gothic Lolita look (and lolita is not used in the negative way), this is about the only look where I can stand the baby doll style dress.

[Shananigans]

Absolutely WONDERFUL post.

I am SOOOOO happy to read this...you literally have NO idea. I nearly left the site a few months ago because I got so aggravated by posts that seemed to put down GGs and were very anti-feministic.

What I think some people have missed about your point is that your not saying being a girlie-girl is wrong. You are saying that building up this caricature of a woman can be kind of offensive (depending on what angle you look at it). I don't think that all drag queens are gay...I know that they do it for show and entertainment and I try to keep that perspective. However, point made.

I literally can't think of anything to add but to say THANK YOU!

:clap:

[Lorileah]

I agree that in general on this site there are many CDs who are looking at the overtly feminine (by societies standards) look. The skirts, the long wigs, the make up. Yes it can get redundant and it can strike a nerve. But there are different reasons we dress as is stated everyday here. That is why there isn't one standard

I agree DRAG performances are over the top. It is one of the main reasons TGs in general get pigeon-holed by the general public. Look at what they have to compare us to: Tootsie, RuPaul (who I love teh look of by the way) and all her Drag Queens, any guy in a sit-com who dresses, Milton Beryl. With icons like that, yes we don't get taken seriously. (Violet you break the stereotype, you are funny and classy). But when the majority of us hide an embrace the culture ourselves without speaking up, then we will never progress. When you use feminism as your speaking point, you must realize that what you see now has been been going on for almost 60 years. Women didn't get where they are overnight and they surely didn't get there by being quiet.

This weekend I went out in public in women's (actually mine but they were bought in the women's department of the store) totally and no one blinked an eye. I blended in and I didn't create a ruckus. I don't think I even got a second glance by the thousands who were there at the summer festival. No it wasn't a "Pride" event. It was a "People's Fair". My outfit wasn't even noted. Why? Because I dressed like 90% of the GG's there. I wore a pullover top, shorts (and yes panties) and 1.5 inch heeled Huarache sandals. I had a baseball cap with my ponytail out the adjustable band and sun glasses. No notice at all. So you see, not all of us fit your thoughts of how a CD looks. Some of us just like how we look in certain clothing, nothing more, nothing less.

If you have outgrown the "need" then it must have been for a different reason than I have.

[sterling12]

Oh my, you may be piling generalities onto more generalities, and dealing from The Deck of "Absolutes!" I don't think you can actually quantify All CD's, All TS Gals, All Drag Queens, All Humans as anything! There's just way too much variation among people to do that. I'll bet if you attend your next party with Transfolk, and you make some of these statements, your going to get a whole lot of, "I'm not like that, and you are full of B.S.!"

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but about The Only Time I have heard statements like this, it came from someone within The Community who seemed to have some type of chip on her shoulder. Perhaps that's not you, so I won't generalize by tarring you with That Brush.

Try this novel idea. The next time you attend A Drag Show, actually talk to The Gal doing the "female impersonation." Perhaps she's just trying to make a living, and perhaps she is well on The Way to Transition (Many of them have done that). The next time, actually start talking to Crossdressers that you encounter. I'll bet you that they don't think they are mocking feminism by trying to be feminine. (It's two different things) The next time, just consider The Individual! Actually talk to them for a long while, get to know them, where they are coming from, what they seek and desire. Then, if you want to make a judgment about THAT Individual, you have some sort of basis for your opinion.

I won't be so presumptuous as to speak for The Rest of The World....but, for an awful lot of us, when your formulating opinions based on generalities, please include us out!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Shananigans]

Oh my, you may be piling generalities onto more generalities, and dealing from The Deck of "Absolutes!" I don't think you can actually quantify All CD's, All TS Gals, All Drag Queens, All Humans as anything! There's just way too much variation among people to do that. I'll bet if you attend your next party with Transfolk, and you make some of these statements, your going to get a whole lot of, "I'm not like that, and you are full of B.S.!"

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but about The Only Time I have heard statements like this, it came from someone within The Community who seemed to have some type of chip on her shoulder. Perhaps that's not you, so I won't generalize by tarring you with That Brush.

Try this novel idea. The next time you attend A Drag Show, actually talk to The Gal doing the "female impersonation." Perhaps she's just trying to make a living, and perhaps she is well on The Way to Transition (Many of them have done that). The next time, actually start talking to Crossdressers that you encounter. I'll bet you that they don't think they are mocking feminism by trying to be feminine. (It's two different things) The next time, just consider The Individual! Actually talk to them for a long while, get to know them, where they are coming from, what they seek and desire. Then, if you want to make a judgment about THAT Individual, you have some sort of basis for your opinion.

I won't be so presumptuous as to speak for The Rest of The World....but, for an awful lot of us, when your formulating opinions based on generalities, please include us out!

Peace and Love, Joanie

I did not take the OP as saying CDing in its entirety or being/acting feminine was being anti-feministic, but there are Specific things that are (pretty much) anti-feministic. I can think of a lot of things that strike me as such. The main thing to ME is the whole "sissy CD" thing. Women are supposed to be vulnerable, dominated, and weak. So, they play as such. And, not every CD is a "sissy." So, it's hard to generalize. That's why I would say not all CDs are anti-feminists. But, some are. But, a lot of non-CDs are anti-feminists too.

Nothing wrong with play and all, but it is what it is. My SO and I are very guilty of playing this game, but I don't think he is a feminist. I also get a kick out of being dominant. More importantly, he doesn't portray this attitude towards women on a day-to-day basis OR expect me to act as such. He knows it's just play and just for fun. If it was any different, I would have no respect for him...because, he wouldn't have much for me.

Also, I think that it's incorrect to say being feminine is anti-feministic. I am very much a "girlie-girl," but I am a die hard feminist to the core. I will get my nails done...get my hair did...and, then I'll go off to read the Feminine Mystique. Feminine=feminist. Not all feminists are butch. I can wear heels and look pretty, but surprise you once I open my mouth. This is why I love, love, Love women.

Drag queens don't bother me as much because I know they are doing things to be silly and for a good show. I also don't think most drag queens are very feminine. They are funny...great at acting...but...feminine....ehhhhh?.... It may just be the drag shows that I have been to, but the ones that I have been to were very caricatureish and Not truly feminine by any regard (other than attire, but that's not femininity at all).

I still love my drag shows though.

My point is that I don't think the OP was necessarily ALL of CDing is anti-feministic. But, some people and some aspects of it are and can be...just like most things in life. But, I have a very special place in my heart for CDs that are also feminists.

[Chloe Renee]

I am happy to see a thread like this. So often I find myself wondering am I the only one not getting the allure of the panty thread? I have always leaned toward the feminist/LGBT movements.
When I come here I filter through alot of threads in a baffled state. The women I know would want to string folks up by their pretty toes, if they read some of the things written here.

[Fab Karen]

Go out in the world and watch women: something you'll discover, shocking as it is to some here, all women are not alike. Some women love dresses. Some hate them. Some women love shoes, to some women they're just something to protect your feet. Etc. etc.
There is no "purpose"- it looks good, & I like it. Same reason some GG's do these things. And those of us who go out show society we are just folks, nothing to fear or laugh at. Gay people learned this lesson & moved forward.
Let's also be clear: A chauvinistic CD isn't that way because of being a CD. A chauvinistic black man isn't that way because of being black. A chauvinistic American isn't chauvinistic because of their country- etc. etc.

[Shananigans]

Let's also be clear: A chauvinistic CD isn't that way because of being a CD. A chauvinistic black man isn't that way because of being black. A chauvinistic American isn't chauvinistic because of their country- etc. etc.

That's a good way to put things.

[docrobbysherry]

------------------------------------------------
I think I'm reaching a point where I don't see the purpose in crossdressing anymore because I just don't view the genders as very different. And the exaggerated femininity CDs put out isn't something I would admire in a GG (no more than I admire extreme masculinity).

Perhaps it's because I lack a transvestic fetish as a motivating factor?------------------------

And, for every other CD that CAN'T look in the mirror at their fem self and feel some EXCITEMENT!!:D,

U may as well give up dressing now! I certainly would!:sad:

[Lip5tick_Li5a]

Wow, lot's of responses! I'm gonna answer as many as I can.


Hm.. This begs the question if you lack a "transvestic fetish" as a motivating factor, and you believe that's what it takes, then how come you were a crossdresser in the first place?

I didn't say that a fetish was the only motivation. But someone who gets a 'kick" out of dressing would probably keep dressing regardless of philosophical objections.

For me, admiration of women is what made me want to experience life on their side of the aisle (same reason I've slept in the mud in a Civil War uniform, to connect to someone else's life experiences). But as time passes, I look at other CDs and MYSELF (note, just as much criticism was leveled at my own person), and I can't help but think, "wait a minute, I don't think this is what I admired in the first place."


you are wayyyyy overthinking it OP!

lots of buzzwords like misogynist, offensive portrayal, and fetishistic in your post...you sound like you took a your first day of class in feminist school....

Pretty much all great advances in human history were made by someone overthinking something. ;-) Also, while they may be "buzzwords", they make the point. Sure I could follow college English arguments class and use non-cliched synonyms, but what is the point? Y'all are an intelligent crowd and you'd still know what I was alluding to. Sometimes its better just to call a spade a spade.


However, something about feminism is that in actuality it is for equality (unless it is of the radical variety). Frankly I think it is a really bad title for a noble cause, which was essentially leveling of the playing field FOR ALL, not just for women. For men to take a few steps down and for women to take a few steps up. Unfortunately as we all know the male side did not really take any steps down, and anything associated with women on a male makes that male less than human. Why instead of calling it feminist they called it humanist, I don't know.

Besides the fact that "humanism" as a term was already taken, "feminism" became an accurate moniker because it was a one-sided struggle. Men were severely oppressing women. Even men who "loved" their wives refused to relinquish their status as privileged males. Women could not vote, own property or even earn wages when they did work (all money a woman made in the early 1800s was paid to her husband). "Feminism" was exactly what the name implies, a women's movement against male tyranny. Feminists had no more reason to incorporate men into the title of their movement than the American colonists had to incorporate Britain into their Revolution (as Britain was the enemy). Yes, there were men allied with the feminist cause, but they were acting outside the parameters of Victorian manhood. Most men, even sensitive men, were indifferent.

When Abigail Addams expressed feminist thoughts in her letters to John, he either dismissed them or mocked her saying that he "could only but laugh" at her ideas, which would lead to "the despotism of the petticoat." And this was from a man who was rather sensitive and progressive for his day ... most men of the 18th century wouldn't have even had such a discussion with their wife.

At one of the first feminist meetings, the Seneca Falls Convention of 1848, Elizabeth Cady Stanton used a modified version of the US Declaration of Independence to declare the intentions of their burgeoning movement.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men and women are created equal." (Note, no female supremacy was ever stated.) "Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of those who suffer from it to refuse allegiance to it, and to insist upon the institution of a new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." (Notice the implied secession, feminists were seceding from established society the same way America seceded from the British Empire). The "humanism" of their day was in error, hence the need for a "feminist" separation.

To date, not all of the problems addressed at the 1848 Convention have been fully addressed, hence the continuing need for a separate "feminist" identity. Reunification of humanity can't really occur until men no longer have innate privilege over women. Until society doesn't use ****-shaming and "purity" to force girls into marriage. Until wages are fair and equal in all work sectors. Until the media stops objectifying women and promoting anorexic images of models almost too skinny to exist in real life. Until people recognize that girls can be just as successful in math and science. Until pigs fly. (In other words, women will always have specific challenges and need a unique philosophy tailored to meeting those challenges, something that "humanism" is too broad to address).

Sorry for the college textbook. Just trying to answer your question about why "feminism" is not lumped under the umbrella of "humanism." (Oh, and I may have gotten some names, quotes and dates wrong. Bite me, I'm not Googling this crap at 3:00 in the morning. If you're THAT interested, Google it yourself).


Hosiery, skirts, and bras are not meant to be "torture" devices as many radical feminists have stated they are.
A lot of stereotypes about feminism linger long after their original meaning is lost. The idea of lingerie as a "torture device" stems from the turn of the century, where they literally WERE torturous. Corsets, for example, deformed womens' bones and restricted their breathing. And even nowadays, high heels can be very painful and physically damaging. Sure CDs might love to wear them for fun now and then, but most of us have never had to wear the damned things for 40 hours a week. And as for hosiery, God knows I'd be crazy if I had to wear the fragile things all the time. Keep in mind that as recently as the 1960s, such clothes were MANDATORY for women. Now it's an option, and modern feminists don't have a defined opinion on the subject. A girl can wear what she wants without some fictional Feminist SWAT team swooping down on her.


As far as bras...EVERY woman I have known has clearly stated that if they did not wear them, their breasts would be to their knees. This was not males telling me this, this was from women I have known. You know how guys get a kick out of breasts bouncing...well the large ones apparently hurt like hell if they are not supported.
The "bra-burning" feminist is a ludicrous urban legend, and it's sad just how much people continue to believe in it. A single bra was burned in a trash can filled with various other feminine articles and burned (not the bra specifically, but the whole can). This spread into the media and spawned the myth of the Bra-Burner, a term that talk radio pundits would get endless mileage out of. But the "public bra-burning ceremony" that so many Conservatives believe in simply never happened. NOT ONCE. EVER.

Now it IS true that some feminists denounced bras. But understand that they were denouncing the fact that bras were mandatory. Not all women found them comfortable, but not wearing one got you a nasty social label. Such "uniform" regulations in society are wrong. Some feminists chose not to wear a bra to protest this bias, but only a few. Feminism had already existed in its modern form for over a hundred years, so going "braless" was hardly a major part of the movement. But when the media wanted to slander feminism, "bra-burning" was sure to generate shock and attention.



What I think some people have missed about your point is that your not saying being a girlie-girl is wrong. You are saying that building up this caricature of a woman can be kind of offensive (depending on what angle you look at it). I don't think that all drag queens are gay...I know that they do it for show and entertainment and I try to keep that perspective. However, point made.
Exactly. Also, CDs are only experiencing a few small parts of a woman's life experience, and not even the most defining parts. This leads to some bone-headed statements by CDs. For example, I often hear "why don't GGs want to wear heels/stockings/corsets/bunny suits/whipped cream/ect. all the time?!"

Since a CD can simply change back to his normal self on a whim, he is going to get a much rosier view of womanhood than a real woman would have. To elaborate on my Civil War comparison, I know a little bit of what a soldier back then experienced. I've ground coffee beans with a rifle butt, chewed on hardtack bread, slept on the ground, marched in full wool uniform, fired period muskets, made ammunition and many other reenacting activities. In some very mundane ways, I know what it felt like to be a Civil War soldier.

But I'll never know what it's like to march towards a line of over a thousand armed enemy soldiers across an open field with no cover, pissing my pants because I'm so damned scared, watching my buddies next to me getting their guts blown out, to be wounded/maimed, or to look into the eyes of some poor boy who doesn't look much different from me but I have to kill him because he's wearing the other side's uniform. Do you see where I am going with this? It takes more than some clothes and roleplay to understand another person's life and struggle.

This is why I get frustrated when CDs say stuff like, "I feel so much like a woman when I dress." No, you don't. A man can't ever quite feel like a GG anymore than a re-enactor can feel like a soldier. Mostly because CDs have a "off switch" and GGs don't.

TG people are an exception, of course. They're in a different bracket, as they have decided to take on the mantle of femininity full time. But even then, a TG and a GG still have different struggles. A TG will never have to deal with menstruation or pregnancy. A GG will never have to have excruciating genital surgery, or deal with transphobia on top of sexism.

Also, I didn't mean to bash all drag queens and such performances. I just got a bad vibe from one I saw at a local club. I get bad vibes from beauty pageants, but I don't dislike all GGs as a result. :p

I don't know where I am with dressing right now. I do know that from now on, any dressing I do will be more dignified than my previous outings. I don't think I can do ****ty looks anymore in good conscience.

[Jessica86]

No matter what I've seen portrayed, I still enjoy being dressed. This whole thread is about a preference. My preference is that I feel like a woman when I am dressed. I am one of those guys you would see in that civil war uniform, using my imagination to actually feel and act like a civil war soldier. In my mind, I am one until that comes off. If you asked me I would say I was. Same with my dresses. I'm a woman until that comes off. Its like the guys who build replica Shelby Cobras. None of them will walk up and tell you, "Hi, my name is Bob and I drive a replica Cobra that isn't worth anything because I bought it from Factory Five." It is what it is. Half the fun is letting people guess if it is real or not!! Same with us!! You gotta have an imagination and a lot of self confidence to do what we do. You can't let things like that ruin your feelings of crossdressing. To me, crossdressing is a part of who I am. If I somehow became unhappy with dressing, I know I am unhappy with myself as a whole. It would be something I need to fix about myself as a person and not just about the dressing.

[Lip5tick_Li5a]

Its like the guys who build replica Shelby Cobras. None of them will walk up and tell you, "Hi, my name is Bob and I drive a replica Cobra that isn't worth anything because I bought it from Factory Five." It is what it is. Half the fun is letting people guess if it is real or not!!
On that note, I am dying for a 1939 Studebaker Commander (or President). Replica or not, I WANT THAT CAR. :p

[CatAttack]

At first when I read your title, I thought you were talking about rad-fems literally interfering with people who are CDing, which is something they would totally do lol

[Lip5tick_Li5a]

At first when I read your title, I thought you were talking about rad-fems literally interfering with people who are CDing, which is something they would totally do lol

Well, any outside group can create friction. I would expect straight men and ultra Conservative types to be more of an immediate threat to CDing, though.

[Loni]

maybe i am the weird one here, or just a member of a unknown group?
i never had a fetish over any part or type of clothing. i do not go ga-ga over shoes. but at times i got to have that pair of heels. if you want to sniff my dirty undies go away.
i just feel better/right/at ease, when i have a dress on. sure i have no real reason to own a bra let alone put one on, as nothing needs support. but strange my feet sometimes do not hurt as much in some heels? but will, but in a different way.
i love to slip on a cute pair of panties. i just love lace, can not get them that way in the mens dept.
when not at work or someplace that requires me to be in drab i only have womens things on and it just feels right. not a sexual thing, just right.
what is right? what is wrong? i do not hurt another, impose my wants/will on another, i just want to be me.

.

[Shananigans]

I really loved these points:


Keep in mind that as recently as the 1960s, such clothes were MANDATORY for women. Now it's an option, and modern feminists don't have a defined opinion on the subject. A girl can wear what she wants without some fictional Feminist SWAT team swooping down on her.

Exactly. Also, CDs are only experiencing a few small parts of a woman's life experience, and not even the most defining parts. This leads to some bone-headed statements by CDs. For example, I often hear "why don't GGs want to wear heels/stockings/corsets/bunny suits/whipped cream/ect. all the time?!"

Since a CD can simply change back to his normal self on a whim, he is going to get a much rosier view of womanhood than a real woman would have.

It takes more than some clothes and roleplay to understand another person's life and struggle.

This is why I get frustrated when CDs say stuff like, "I feel so much like a woman when I dress." No, you don't. A man can't ever quite feel like a GG anymore than a re-enactor can feel like a soldier. Mostly because CDs have a "off switch" and GGs don't.

I very often get very tired of the same posts over and over and OVER again about how women do not dress well anymore, or a CD's wife won't dress a certain way that he wants her to dress. And, crazy enough, the latter group will sometimes say that they CD BECAUSE their wife does not dress "sexy.") I literally just shake my head. The idea of femininity is very tightly wrapped to clothing to many CDs. There was actually a thread on here not too long ago where someone asked what femininity was to the CDs on this forum. The overwhelming majority offered answers regarding the way a woman dresses. The GGs, on the other hand, offered responses that focused on internal phenomenons that most of us could not actually pinpoint. We all knew what we were trying to say, but it was hard to tie it down to a word. I realized that most CDs had absolutely no clue what IS true femininity...or even the bonding glue that ties most women together on some level.

And, I was also quite put off on the fact that a group of people who stand on their platforms, wanting the freedom to wear whatever THEY want, have the audacity to tell women that they dress like crap and need to take a page out of their own books.

I personally think people should wear whatever they want to wear...thus, I am not against CDing.

Speaking of life struggles and such, I have met quite a few member on this site who own a "vee-string." Which is essentially a prosthetic vagina made to be worn that can bleed and urinate. A few weeks after I got back from the gynecologist after being told that I might have endometriosis (which would explain my severe pains during menstruation) and may have trouble having children in the future, I had the pleasure of a talking to a member from this site who was telling me that his bleeding, plastic vagina made him feel more womanly. He could finally experience what it was like to be a "real woman." He considered himself a kotex girl.

My menstrual period might be taking away the one thing that is best about womanhood...pregnancy. And, here he was just happy as a clam about bleeding on a kotex.

I think that he thought menstruation was this beautiful thing. When people on this site talk about what it is to be a real woman, menstruation and pregnancy often come up. The fact of the matter is, they have Something to do with being a woman...but, not all of it. And, menstruation is not a beautiful thing that defines who you are...and, it certainly isn't quite the same as just having a bleeding, plastic vagina. I wish that people would remember this and who they are talking to when they try to equate the two. Especially when the woman might be suffering with things such as endometriosis or cancer and might not appreciate the fact that she was given this monthly "blessing."

Menopause, on the other hand, rarely comes up. I wonder why? :)

Just thought I would add that in regards to your analogy on role playing versus actually experiencing the real thing.

[Pythos]

Shananigans,

Oh wow how things like the one you mentioned irritate me. It is borderline sick at least to me.

This is one of many things that disturb me about the whole "men feeling like women". I can no more "feel" like a woman than I can "feel" like a hamster. Yes I may be able to run in a giant wheel, or use a stair master, and go no where, in a hamster-like fashion, but I will NEVER know what it is like being a hamster.

That silliness aside. The only thing that I can do is experience those things that society for some reason has deemed forbidden for men, and yes that is clothing. I can feel like a man being felt up by a man no matter what I am wearing. But I cannot feel what it is like to feel that AS A WOMAN. I love the feel of a skirt and hose, but I cannot know how it feels to wear such things as a woman. Just like a woman can never know what it feels like to wear pants as a male. I love the tactile sensations of wearing a catsuit, but this is also something I can never truly understand the sensations a woman feels, EVEN if I were to get GRS. Why? Because I myself will always be me. And I was raised as a male. (and want to continue being one mind you).

I don't like Shania Twain's hit "I feel like a woman" My response to songs like that is "of course you feel like a woman!!! YOU ARE ONE. LOL." Thank you captain obvious. Her song reels off those things that women wear and do, that are really only "feminine" because of arbitrary rules set by someone. They are not inherently feminine. She does not mention the feelings and mindset dealing with child birth, menstruation, breast pains associated with rearing a child, all of those ARE strickly feminine. (and not the full scope either, there is more to being a woman than that)

There are many things about being a woman I would not want to deal with, and in many ways feel for women having to deal with it. The reproductive system being one of them. What a friggin mess that thing is. If it had been made by Cessna, that system would have been knocked out by the maintenance directives that came out against it (the male system certainly has its problems too, don't get me wrong there).

I DON'T have any want of knowing what it is like to have something growing inside of me. I don't want to know what it is like to have menstrual pains, or any of that stuff.

I also however do not want women getting pissed off at me because I DON'T suffer from it. I also do not want women being passed up for stuff just because they are women. The unequal wage thing being an absolute grand example.

That device you mentioned...I cannot believe there is someone making a profit by the manufacturing and selling of such a thing.

(Shananigans, I am sorry to hear about your situation though. But remember there are many many many unwanted, or abandoned kids that need someone that loves and cherishes them. I do wish people would remember this before bringing another mouth into the world to feed. You won't be denied the "joys" of parenthood. I intend to adopt if I ever get the funds to do so.)

[Fab Karen]

"And, I was also quite put off on the fact that a group of people who stand on their platforms, wanting the freedom to wear whatever THEY want, have the audacity to tell women that they dress like crap and need to take a page out of their own books."
On here there's a very vocal minority who repeat their misogyny ad nauseum, do not take this as representing the majority view.
Plastic vagina that bleeds??:facepalm: You need a microscope for that minority.

[Shananigans]

"And, I was also quite put off on the fact that a group of people who stand on their platforms, wanting the freedom to wear whatever THEY want, have the audacity to tell women that they dress like crap and need to take a page out of their own books."
On here there's a very vocal minority who repeat their misogyny ad nauseum, do not take this as representing the majority view.
Plastic vagina that bleeds??:facepalm: You need a microscope for that minority.

Oh, I know. I wouldn't be on this site if it was the Majority. I did get my panties all in a bunch one day, declared this site anti-feministic and said I was leaving. I talked to a few friends on here and remembered that MOST people on this site are not crazy or anti-feminists.

But, there are a few and they get me mad as hell.

I think everything has to be in perspective. The OP had great points regarding what I feel may be a minority of CDs, but is definitely not a silent minority. And, that minority posts enough threads to make every non-CD guest that visits this site wonder WTF is going on. But, I feel the more sensible people are getting more vocal. I've tried to get TG convos going with friends and coworkers to see their views on things and dispell any myths.

Feminists stood a platform and showed that women were not the weaker sex. I feel as though TG people (especially CDs) will find a stable platform to stand on and show that the majority of CDs are not ant-feministic, are not all gay, are not all shooving things up their bums and wearing plastic vajays. That is not to say that being gay is wrong or whatever you do with your bum is wrong. However, statements that I have listed and the concerns by the OP are warranted and need to be dispelled, even if it means pointing out the a loud minority Is a minority.

[Lorileah]

Plastic vagina that bleeds??:facepalm:

it's latex :) it has a slit in it that is supposed to let your have intercourse with penetration (if you don't mind that there is no real penetration)

Oh and it isn't a vagina, it's a vulva. :)

[Shananigans]

Oh and it isn't a vagina, it's a vulva. :)

(Note: This reply is going to go far beyond your post. Not all "yous" are actually you...but, a general "you.")

It does sell itself as a "prosthetic vagina." (Yes, I had to get a load of what this thing looked like). It Is a vulva (though it does look like it has a simulation of the birth canal for various purposes). Though, technically it is neither a vagina nor a vulva...nor a uterus...it's a toy. I would not call my strap-on a penis. I call it a strap-on. It's a toy. I'm fine with it being a toy. If I paraded around on the street proclaiming to understand the male experience because I wear a strap-on, I would be considered off my rocker. It is also off your rocker to proclaim that a plastic/latex/synthetic toy is the same experience as womanhood. I also laugh at the bra-burning feminist stereotype...but, damnit...it makes me mad.

It's like what I was saying with the "sissy CD" thing. Yes, that portrayal of women is totally anti-feministic and offensive. However, I wouldn't judge anyone for it as long as they had it in perspective. As long as you don't REALLY think that women should act or behave like that, I could care less what you do in your bedroom. If you are a drag queen, acting like a clown...go for it and make the$$$. But, if you think that this is REALLY how women should behave and because they aren't, they are less womanly....you are wrong. If you want to wear random prosthetic genitalia for the heck of it, go for it. I really don't care if that's what you're into...as long as you aren't hurting anyone else, wear whatever the heck you want and play however you want. ...BUT, don't tell me what a beautiful experience it is for you to load up your fake blood and sit on a Kotex. Don't tell me that you understand womanhood. Real menstruation is a very weird aspect to womanhood...but, trust me on this...it's not womanhood. When women go through menopause, we don't magically go *poof* and turn into pumpkins. We're still women. Women who cannot menstruate (I was actually in this category for a while when I was running track), are still women.

When the fantasy or whatever becomes reality and you are equating your experiences with a group of people that you really know nothing about, that's when it becomes anti-feministic. And, this is when I (as a feminist) get sh*tty with said individual. (Or, I become so taken aback that I don't know how to respond). See OPs analogy to RPing a soldier versus actually being a soldier. Would you tell a war veteran that you tried on a WW2 uniform a few times and held a gun...so, now you know what it feels like? No. That's insane. And, I find the equating that manifests on this site equally insane. (Though by a loud minority).

Anyway, those are the main things that really jump out at me as really bothersome as far as anti-feministic. I don't really think the sissy CDs are a minority (I might be wrong), but again....nothing wrong with it if it's a game at the end of the day and you really aren't believing that's how all women behave.

And, that's what I feel the OP was getting at. CDing isn't wrong as long as YOU own it and don't use it as measuring stick for the ideal femininity. Most CDs are on the epic journey to achieve ideal femininity and look like the ideal woman when dressed. Well, I can tell you right now that so many are literally failing at it miserably because they haven't the first clue what femininity is...and, I can also tell you that you won't find it inside the perfect dress or up inside of a synthetic vajayjay.

[Pythos]

Here here, well spoken Shaninigans.

[dawnmarrie1961]

Lipstick Lisa, There is a lot of truth in what you are seeing. (My opinion only). Hurray for the Feminist Movement! Don't ever give up! Don't ever give in!

[Lexine]

I can say that I had a very different motivation to CD than a lot of the girls here... it's for confidence building. I wanted to put myself in a situation that would make me vulnerable and wanted to learn how to just express myself in the best way possible with a lot of confidence behind my convictions. Sure, it's a weird way to put it, but it goes to show that we all have different reasons to be doing this sort of thing.

In the end, I found that merging my boy and girl looks as my permanent boy look (i.e. androgyne) and keeping my female personality was the best way to go forward with things. My friends accept both sides and accept me for who I am inside. That's what matters to me the most.

[Debglam]

Hi Lisa,

You are really touching the tip of an iceberg. The intersection of gender and feminism is a huge topic, with scientific, political, and just plain human issues combined. There are actually radical feminists who hate the transgender community because the idea of genetic males wanting to become or actually becoming women somehow is "stealing" from them.

I'm on another forum where the larger gender-feminism topic is a large part of the discussion.


My advice would be to simply accept the person you are, and stop agonising over those aspects of this community with which you feel at odds.


:yt:

While all of this is interesting food for thought, you just need to be who you are! :)

[Sarah_Jane]

I love all the psycho babble that amounts to nothing, introspective b.s. that people think somehow changes who they are. If you don't know who you are and the paradigm you live your life by then I feel sorry for those of you that need to adhere themselves to a "grand" purpose or worldly concept.

Why do I dress? Because like many of the other "girls" here we are drawn to it and really have no choice, that is if we want to feel balanced. I choose the clothing I do because it is a reflection of who I am, I'm not a fractured individual, there is only one of me. I wear cargo shorts when presenting as a man and cargo skirts while presenting as a woman. Does that mean cargo shorts are somehow demeaning to men?

Everyone chooses to dress the way they feel comfortable, if you want to dress in granola and sit in a damn tree then don't bring down the rest of us and call us bigots or sexist because we choose to reflect our inner being, all of you defending this line of b.s. are part of the problem.

Just let everyone be the person they choose to be, don't feel the need to show off your false intellect by thinking you know me better than I do!

[Vickie_CDTV]

It is funny, many years ago Virginia Prince wrote in Transvestia magazine that with the advent of feminism, femmiphilia (as she called it) would be obsolete as men and women achieved parity in terms of dress and traditional gender roles. Needless to say, it has been about 40 years since she wrote that, and about 50 years since feminism took off in the 60s. Needless to say, I am still waiting for that to happen (and I am not holding my breath.)

[kendra_gurl]

Perhaps it's because I lack a transvestic fetish as a motivating factor?



You may be correct about that. It means that as you have done research you have grown into something more than perhaps you were when you started. I think this entire thread and the responses to it show how most of us here are more than just fetish crossdressers. While there might always remain some form of role play or fetish in private we enjoy along with it while we are dressed, I think there are very few who are on this site who take things to the extreme of wanting to experience a menstrual cycle. Sure there are thousands of those out there with all sorts kinks and fetishes but I really doubt they would get all dressed up then get their toys out or put on a artificialfical vagina and set at their PC's reading post on this site. There are way too many you tube, xtube and similar sites they would find way more to their enjoyment.







And, that's what I feel the OP was getting at. CDing isn't wrong as long as YOU own it and don't use it as measuring stick for the ideal femininity. Most CDs are on the epic journey to achieve ideal femininity and look like the ideal woman when dressed. Well, I can tell you right now that so many are literally failing at it miserably because they haven't the first clue what femininity is...and, I can also tell you that you won't find it inside the perfect dress or up inside of a synthetic vajayjay.


I agree with what your saying. I would just caution that femininity and feminism are two different things. When a CD tries to achieve femininity through an ideal look it is only from their own perspective. The way they want to look to themselves in the mirror or in public but that does not mean they want all the women in the world to dress the same way. I don't dress the same way everytime I dress. I wear jeans and a top with flip flops a lot more than a dress or a skirt because that is how most GG's dress where I go. I am not trying to experience everything about being feminine and I am certainly not trying to make any statement about the feminist movement. All I am doing is dressing and trying to act in a feminine manner.

As for the Sissy CD. they are simply emulating the GG's in costumes playing the part of Maids or feminine fantsy girls they see in Porn. I mean really its out there aways being portrayede by WOMEN making a living doing in so film but that is not their true identities or intent to make anyone think it is how all women should act or dress.

[Fab Karen]

it's latex :) it has a slit in it that is supposed to let your have intercourse with penetration (if you don't mind that there is no real penetration)

Oh and it isn't a vagina, it's a vulva. :)

I was quoting the phrase she used. And I repeat::facepalm: intercourse with it? Might as well just give your date a sex-doll. Call me old-fashioned, but I like to feel it when having intercourse.

[Shananigans]

But that is not their true identities or intent to make anyone think it is how all women should act or dress.

I met a few who live 24/7 as a sissy sub. There was actually a thread a while back that got a lot of attention. I think again that it's a loud minority. However, I wonder sometimes what people think that randomly visit this site. Some threads from here were addressed for larger discussions in my gender class. (I went to a small, private college for undergrad). So, this forum is not quite the safe bubble that it seems to be. And, for people here that are coming with a research-mind, they may wonder what the consensus is of people that share a certain view. And, it only takes one thread that get blown up for a loud minority to seem like the consensus. This was another big discussion for my gender class.

Also, I completely agree that feminism and femininity are not the same thing, but they do play an important aspect with each other. My point was that if femininity is what defines a woman, then you can use the certain feminine traits that a woman Should be like or is Supposed to be like. (Which is my problem with people that attempt this on this forum, and my main point). When femininity is used to say what a woman should be or is supposed to be, it starts brushing shoulders with feminism. And, feminists rally for equal rights...however, it's mainly views on how a feminine woman should be or is supposed to be that are addressed by anti-feminists.

[deebra]

Hey Lipstick, I live right across the Elizabeth River from you, if you decide to throw away your clothes I'll take them. I love dressing and becoming a curvy, shapely feminine woman.

[Pythos]

sissy sub

Waz that? A type VII Uboat painted pink with purple polka dots. LOL.

[Cari]

I can see both sides of the argument; but I don't really dwell on it anymore.

I made the choice to dress and act in away that doesn't disrespect women if I head out or post pictures.
Just my choice; Im just being myself, that is gonna offend some people but I'm not trying to offend anyone so watch my public image as a CD.
And I'm with Karen on not dressing for Halloween mainly because its me and doesn't feel like a costume.
I also dont consider it a fetish.

Being that there are so few "ex-cd's" I'd say you may want to take a break, relax for awhile and take some time to figure it out.
No harm in staying in or stopping for awhile until your comfortable with it.

Just a few things to consider:

Drag queens are acting and play on every stereotype they can find, I consider them performers and while they crossdress I don't really think of them as CD's.

The community is wide open and CD's evolve,grow and change with time.
In any community this large there will things and people you dont agree with.
I don't let that stop me from doing other things I enjoy.

I have many photos I took while finding my "fashion sense" that Im not proud of, [fortunately it was much harder to get them on the net back then so they are still private :-)]
Of course I tried the cliches; I really didn't know where else to start.

I don't dress everyday so when I do its a special occasion and I dress up.
if I dress for a few days in a row I start playing with more casual looks and comfortable clothes.

[Sue101]

People are mixing two different things together. The physical reality of being a GG is called womanhood. Femininity is the cultural rulebook that governs how women should look and behave to be socially accepted.
So monthly periods, childbirth, female friendships etc are part of womanhood whereas party dresses, perfumes, supportive roles are part of femininity.

Transsexuals and transgenderists want to experience womanhood. Crossdressers want to experience femininity so the looks, mannerisms and sexual roles are important for this objective. The problem is this distinction between these two aspects of being a GG is not clear to many. So when a crossdressers says he wants to be a woman, actually what he means is he wants to experience femininity but because of male gender upbringing he can only do this by mimicking a woman. This causes a lot of confusion and misunderstanding all round.

Crossdressers should not be denounced for not representing or desiring an accurate representation of a woman's life because that is not the intention in the first instance. As in the OP it is really more akin to war reenactments which give you a flavor of the lifestyle, and naturally you will focus on those aspects which interest you the most and ignore those which are not interesting.

[Shananigans]

Femininity is the cultural rulebook that governs how women should look and behave to be socially accepted.
So monthly periods, childbirth, female friendships etc are part of womanhood whereas party dresses, perfumes, supportive roles are part of femininity.

I couldn't disagree more. Sure biological things would be aspects of womanhood. But, I don't think that party dresses and perfumes are supportive roles to femininity.

I think the biological aspects of a woman are important because they define what we are on anatomical level. However, I think that the assumption that femininity is a materialistic phenomenon is something that is confused not only by CDs, but by many people in society. As I have said there was a thread in which the OP asked what femininity was...every CD was posting about how to dress...the GGs went on a more internal level to what femininity is.

This confusion is what can lead to the stereotypes that the OP is talking about. If femininity is a woman in a dress with heels and perfume, then anyone who isn't wearing such outfit isn't feminine. However, this stereotype is fading. Fashion changes....some say for the better and some say for the worst. However, what is constant is that women are still have femininity no matter what they wear because it is not just an external concept and it is not purely biological (menopause, period, etc.)

Also, I agree that CD should not be denounced for not portraying accurate women; however, when these CDs think that they ARE displaying how a woman should act or behave (or, that they make better women because of their dress) transcends into feminist territory.

I like this article (perhaps because it mentions Ani DiFranco, who I love): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcia-reynolds/what-is-femininity_b_748070.html

Here are highlights from the article:

"What does femininity mean to you?

Does being feminine relate to feminism in your mind? Or are the two concepts totally different to you?"

"In the end, I'm inclined to say that being feminine means I am okay with who I am, no matter what type of girl I am, what clothes I like to wear, or what life path I choose. I am inclusive of myself as well as others, including what appears to be my masculine side.

Being feminine then also means I respect the choices other people make for themselves. No one should define femininity for me. I should not define it for them. If expressing my femininity means I am being inclusive, then I accept others for who they are and the choices they make as long as they aren't blocking mine."

"Who is the person beyond the labels? What strengths, gifts, talents and perspectives does he or she bring to this moment right now? When we truly honor each other as humans, we are feminine in the sense of community and masculine in the sense of creating one human tribe. In this world, no one is better. We are one."


So, in short, I sincerely hope that femininity is much more complex than clothing choices. I like to ask this, "If the world changed and women wore tuxes and mean wore dresses, would I still be feminine?" The fact of the matter is that our assigned clothing choices are by CHANCE. Fashion changes every minute. So, again, I sincerely hope that femininity is NOT purely rooted in fashion choices because A) It degrades what the feminine essence is and B) It means my femininity can be taken away from me once I am placed in different clothing.

I feel that femininity is bone deep and it cannot be stripped off of my back...and, I do not confuse it with my womanhood.

[Fab Karen]

Agreed, Shan. Though it can get into debatable territory without a good definition of "not portraying accurate women."

[Shananigans]

Agreed, Shan. Though it can get into debatable territory without a good definition of "not portraying accurate women."

True...I don't know if I am even portraying an accurate woman haha

[pj]

For me, admiration of women is what made me want to experience life on their side of the aisle...Far be it from me to tell you why you do something, you're the only expert there. But based on what you've written here in this thread, methinks someone doesn't really know themselves yet. There's nothing wrong with that, you are a young person, so you should be questioning everything. But my vibe, baby, is just that a lot of this rings hollow. The lady doth protest too much, if you get my drift.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s, during the rise of feminism, as did a lot of people here, and what we're doing is not counter to those ideals at all. Regardless of what your textbook is telling you. I've always been and always will be a feminist. But that doesn't change who I am.

Like someone else said, if you're conflicted, just give it up. See how that works for you. You'll learn something about yourself, that's for sure. ;)

[Maddie22]

First of all, I've really enjoyed this thread, especially the posts from the individuals that have participated frequently, Pythos, Shans, Lip5stick, and a few others. I'm getting a little bit of writers block here, and feel like I'm about to write an essay for my gender class (which was only one fall removed).

I would first like to defend a particular crowd that often gets very negative criticism on this forum, and are often very stereotyped and misrepresented. Drag queens, while over the top, are not exactly denouncing femininity or degrading women. Many of the queens I know are living full time as women, and when not performing wear average clothes. However like many performers that go on stage, they have a tendency to glam it up more. It happens in regular show business as well. Anyone think that today's artist, male or female, always wear the same things on stage as they do off? Some might, and some may not. It's part of the performance, and often times they perform more as a tribute to certain women. I remember one inparticular that performed to Tina Turner's Proud Mary. It was done very respectably, and in complete tribute and imitation (which to some degree is the best form of flattery) to Tina Turner. I would say that a tribute to such a person as Tina Turner and what she has accomplished isn't degrading femininity at all, but honoring it.

I believe that while we hold equal rights for women, in terms of biology, we do not hold equal rights for feminism in our society. In the gender in society class that I took, my final paper was on a book written by Julia Serano called Whipping Girl. Julia is a post-operative transsexual women, who started out as a straight crossdresser, to becoming more androgynous, and then to being trans, while staying with her wife. She is a professor, and often does feminine prose poetry slams. You can youtube some of her performances. Much of what she writes about is how femininity is losing to masculinity. One of the things that she has struggled with is the radical feminists, who are so radical that they become themselves pro masculinity and chauvinistic women. She gives an example of how she was not allowed to an all female music festival since she was born a male thus experienced having the perceived male privilege. However this same music festival allowed female to male trans people, even though many of them were able to experience male privilege. Her challenge is that even when she lived life as a male she never was able to fully experience the male privilege because she was a very feminine male. Characteristics that are not accepted by straight males. We seem to automatically assume that a feminine male is gay or a sissy (a derived connotation of sissy than Shannigans was talking about). Why men can't take on some more perceived feminine traits of being more caring and nurturing, and having a softer more compassionate side to them is beyond me. Why we feel that those characteristics are often linked with femininity is perceived as weak, while aggression, competitiveness are linked to masculinity and perceived as being strong is a true social injustice.

I think what will become more important as society strives for more equality, is a level playing field of masculinity and femininity. With that, I do believe that there are some social aspects of dress that do come into play in this. While it's very accepted for women to have a more variety of clothing options, and males to have a limits, clothing doesn't define who we are on the inside. They are many women who dress very girlie, who display more masculine characteristics than I do, and there are many women who do not dress in the girlie who are extremely feminine in their persona.

Having been raised by my mother and my sister for much of my formative years, I believe that I'm much more for women's rights and pro-femininity than most people and men. However I'm not afraid to argue and or to challenge/compete with a women for a job, especially if I believe I'm more qualified for the right reasons than they are. For many years I've bartender, and it has always upset me that a female will get a job because of looks, even though I am a more qualified bartender than they are. The opposite is true with bosses, and I have often took my female bosses side over their male counterpart because they actually did a better job, and while I can get along with the "boys club" it is for that very reason that I choose not to join.

Many here like to dress in more of the girlie girl style. I have no problem with that at all. I dress the same, and love to shop at stores like Macy's, the Limited, ect...It's more about wanting to look nice. I am the same way as a male, I like to look nice and well maintained, and as a male I do fall under that "metro" category. I don't think that liking clothing, shoes, or some of the "finer" things in life neglects or takes away from women's struggles at all. You can be a very beautiful well put together women, and still be very empowering for women and femininity.

As a communication major, I often think of a theory that can really inhibit progress, and I believe can be really detrimental to some of the males here (myself included). That is the Spiral of Silence Theory, which really explains how a very small minority will stay silent in order to maintain a certain level and type of status from a much larger majority voicing the opposite. It takes a lot of courage to challenge the norm when the norm is wrong or unjust. I have on many occasions, but not all. I believe though that in order to get to equality more of us will have to break the Spiral of Silence. I am also one who believes that equality doesn't mean we all look the same either, but rather all walks of life are viewed as being equal no matter their looks or personality.

For myself, my reasonings for crossdressing are not for a fetish, but rather who I am. I consider myself a pre-transitional transsexual. And whether I do transition or not, my true self gender is female. While I will never know what it's like to be a biological female, a biological female will never know what it's like to be trans either. When I go out dressed, I am not a women, and don't claim to fully understand, however I can relate my experiences with genetic women. I understand the process that some females go through to get ready to go out. I know what it's like to have older men unwantingly hit on me and touch me in inappropriate ways, or to have cat calls as well. I don't think there is any problems with being able to relate with someone else, and have a better understanding of what they went through with out claiming to have walked in their shoes and fully understand. I will never know what it's like to have a menstrual cycle, or to give birth to a child, or go through menopause. However, if given a choice to be born again as a female, I would because I know that is who I am on the inside.

And I'll stop my rambling there.

[Shananigans]

For myself, my reasonings for crossdressing are not for a fetish, but rather who I am. I consider myself a pre-transitional transsexual. And whether I do transition or not, my true self gender is female. While I will never know what it's like to be a biological female, a biological female will never know what it's like to be trans either. When I go out dressed, I am not a women, and don't claim to fully understand, however I can relate my experiences with genetic women. I understand the process that some females go through to get ready to go out. I know what it's like to have older men unwantingly hit on me and touch me in inappropriate ways, or to have cat calls as well. I don't think there is any problems with being able to relate with someone else, and have a better understanding of what they went through with out claiming to have walked in their shoes and fully understand. I will never know what it's like to have a menstrual cycle, or to give birth to a child, or go through menopause. However, if given a choice to be born again as a female, I would because I know that is who I am on the inside.

And I'll stop my rambling there.

Very well said, Becca.

I also want to stress that even though you and I have different experiences and may never fully understand each other's life journey, I DO consider you a woman and anyone else who identifies with the experience of being born into the wrong gender. I have found when reading posts by transwomen that they seem to focus on the same things that GGs do when grasping for explanations on femininity and the female identity. It is about much more than what the person wears, in other words. Why is it like this? I think because transwomen (or transmen, for that matter) identify as a certain sex with or without the clothes. In other words, the clothes aren't making you into a woman...you are already a woman but have been born in the wrong gender. Perhaps the clothes are an important part of making you feel "right," but they aren't the deciding factor.

They aren't the deciding factor for GGs either, and that's where I feel we are similar.

Either way, I just wanted to point out that in my posts I was talking about CDs and not trans-women. I consider trans-women to be just as much of a woman as I am, even if we have different paths and experiences along our road to living as a woman.

:hugs:

[Maddie22]

One thing though, is that all CD's, transsexuals, drag queens & kings, transvestites, gender queer, and the many other's all fall under the Transgender umbrella and can be anywhere in that spectrum. That being said, I think a lot of people no matter where they fall under, don't understand that clothes don't make the person. I've read many CD's posts on here that are very aware of that fact, and say if it wasn't for family obligations that they would transition, thus making them trans in a way.

I do agree though that there is a vast majority of people, which includes many on here, who feel that femininity is only what you wear on the outside. When it truly is who you are on the inside.

[Shananigans]

One thing though, is that all CD's, transsexuals, drag queens & kings, transvestites, gender queer, and the many other's all fall under the Transgender umbrella and can be anywhere in that spectrum. That being said, I think a lot of people no matter where they fall under, don't understand that clothes don't make the person. I've read many CD's posts on here that are very aware of that fact, and say if it wasn't for family obligations that they would transition, thus making them trans in a way.

I do agree though that there is a vast majority of people, which includes many on here, who feel that femininity is only what you wear on the outside. When it truly is who you are on the inside.

True. Even if it is hard to lump people under one category, it seems to be done out of convenience. I have mixed feelings about the lumping under the TG umbrella...I think the labeling can be both helpful and confusing at the same time. I'd say that someone who dresses for purely fetishistic purposes isn't TG...but, that's just my opinion. At least it gives common ground for people who seem to participate in the same activity. This can be helpful for banding together for overall acceptance.

I also hope that before someone would make the huge jump into transitioning that they would know it's not just about the clothes and the physicalities. There's a lot of people who say they would LOVE to transition, but if it were me I'd be pretty hesitant. It's seems like a very painful process. I also think that people have unrealistic expectations about transitioning and hormones in general that can leave them disappointed and leaning towards more and more plastic surgeries. That's a whole different debate for a different day. But, what I think is relative is the fact that if you know what you are on the inside and have a lot of satisfaction in knowing that no one can take that away from you, hopefully the physical manifestations of yourself aren't as important. And, I know that's a completely radical concept that most people won't agree with me on; however, I really ascribe to the philosophy that the physical manifestation of myself has little to do with who I am on the inside. I'm just a bag of skin filled with bones and blood...the real me cannot be touched physically.

I think that philosophy is why it's hard for me to give a definition for what IS femininity. I think it's a very internal thing that I can't put a physical dimension too. I think wearing pretty clothes and shoes can help someone feel more "feminine" by the definition of what femininity is to society. But, the definition of femininity to the outsider is by chance. People that are observing the physical manifestations of someone acting feminine probably wore clothes that were assigned to their appropriate sex. Therefore, the feminine essence is tied into this physical manifestation that entails a certain dress code. However, the dress code is by chance and is not important. When you see past the dress code and into the feminine essence, then you "get it." You are no longer the outsider who saw the physical manifestations of femininity and therefore assigned it (femininity) to a dress code for all outsiders to understand as feminine.

Okay, enough hippie crap for today.

[Rianna Humble]

I also hope that before someone would make the huge jump into transitioning that they would know it's not just about the clothes and the physicalities. There's a lot of people who say they would LOVE to transition, but if it were me I'd be pretty hesitant. It's seems like a very painful process.

I am often baffled by people who would LOVE to transition - most of the TS I know do it because we cannot continue to function without transitioning. I am one of the lucky ones who has not lost everything by transitioning, but there are many people who do. I don't know many people who would LOVE to lose family, friends, sometimes even their livelihood.


I also think that people have unrealistic expectations about transitioning and hormones in general that can leave them disappointed and leaning towards more and more plastic surgeries. That's a whole different debate for a different day.

I agree that there are some who seem to have very unrealistic expectations, the majority of people in the TS forum try to explain the realities, but as you say, that is for another day, another discussion.


But, what I think is relative is the fact that if you know what you are on the inside and have a lot of satisfaction in knowing that no one can take that away from you, hopefully the physical manifestations of yourself aren't as important. And, I know that's a completely radical concept that most people won't agree with me on; however, I really ascribe to the philosophy that the physical manifestation of myself has little to do with who I am on the inside. I'm just a bag of skin filled with bones and blood...the real me cannot be touched physically.

Unfortunately, in the case of people suffering from Gender Dysphoria (or the slightly more recent term Gender Incongruence), the external appearance is important. Sometimes, the physical is needed to support the mental stability.

I recently saw a documentary about a facio-cranial unit that treats a number of birth defects including cleft palate. There are people who can live with a cleft palate, but those who have it treated can have a better quality of life. Those of us with acute Gender Dysphoria also have a birth defect and often the treatment of that defect is needed to give us quality of life.


When you see past the dress code and into the feminine essence, then you "get it."
:yt: :iagree:

[Shananigans]

I am often baffled by people who would LOVE to transition - most of the TS I know do it because we cannot continue to function without transitioning. I am one of the lucky ones who has not lost everything by transitioning, but there are many people who do. I don't know many people who would LOVE to lose family, friends, sometimes even their livelihood.

Unfortunately, in the case of people suffering from Gender Dysphoria (or the slightly more recent term Gender Incongruence), the external appearance is important. Sometimes, the physical is needed to support the mental stability.

I recently saw a documentary about a facio-cranial unit that treats a number of birth defects including cleft palate. There are people who can live with a cleft palate, but those who have it treated can have a better quality of life. Those of us with acute Gender Dysphoria also have a birth defect and often the treatment of that defect is needed to give us quality of life.

I don't quite understand it either, but there are people who wish beyond wish they could have the opportunity. I don't mean "love" in that they would love the experience, but "love" as in wish they could do it. I can never really understand being in a TS person's situation, but I would just imagine that it would be my last resort of all resorts. But, most of the people I have talked with are in the process of transitioning and still at a very difficult phase. Perhaps that influences my outlook on it in a lot of ways. As you have said, it may help the person's mental stability to look as womanly as they feel. However, what I am really referring to are the people who transition and are Not satisfied. They realize that they still aren't "all female"...there's more they could do for their looks...they aren't anatomically the same...they are unhappy with their hands or the thickness in their necks...they want ribs removed to have thinner waists...etc., etc...the list goes on. I just wonder where it all ends with people that I have met on here that keep measuring themselves up to the ideal woman that I don't think even I could ever be. And, those are the people that I think are way caught up in physicalities. They will never be happy with Themselves, they seek something that they are not. And, I do not mean that they are not women, I mean that they are not the women that they try to become. Even GGs are guilty of this...think of the women that are paraded around on TV that are acclaimed for their plastic surgeries. They went waaaaaaaaay too far in buying into a societal ideal. It's nice to be that ideal...be considered beautiful, intelligent, etc. But, when you go further than that and become more of an "it" that you have gone too far. Most people want to be reached beyond their shell of a body and touched within...but, when you and your life becomes About that shell and living it, you are no longer living to make yourself a better person and you aren't helping anyone else around you with your obsession in your appearance and materialistic things.

I'll be fine if I can work on myself from the inside out. I don't think I'll get very far working from the outside in.

Anyway, that's what I meant as far as unrealistic expectations, which are of course not exclusive to the trans community...we are all guilty of unrealistic expectations. But, we have to diagnose our problem once we see its manifestation.

Equating this back to the OP, I think that trans people have to go through as much objectification as GGs. This may be the reason that some trans people aren't satisfied. There's an ideal that even MTF TS are expected to live up to that I think is absolutely unfair. Does that fall under the umbrella of feminism? What about equality for trans-women and trans-men that they don't have to be what 90% of the people expect them to be? A joke. Sex workers. Porn stars (same thing as sex worker?) Better looking than the average female or male. Honestly, THAT makes me REALLY angry and I don't have to spend a lot of time online before I fall onto those opinions. Feminists went very far for GGs, but transwomen and transmen are very much under prejudice. It's honestly no wonder that people transition and aren't satisfied. Everyone is telling you that you are supposed to look like these jokers that are on the Hangover pt 2...yeah, it was a good laugh and funny haha *sarcasm*...but, what's Not funny is that the tranny sex worker is the stereotypical, funny prostitute joke. So, what?...That's all people can come up with?...TS prostitutes?? Is that all a t-girl can hope for now? That she has to look like a prostitute and act like one too?

Everyone in the audience gags when they see the beautiful girl has a penis. THe guy in the movie is horrified he had sex with a "man." REALLY?!?!? If the movie was flipped...and it was about a GG...feminists would just sh*t. I know I would. (I did...well, I didn't sh*t...but, I was angry). Was a letter written to the makers of the movie to say that wasn't okay? Who is this porn star that is so much of a freaking loser that she allows people to treat her like a joke and a chick with a d*ck. Because, that's what they called her in the movie. That's NOT okay! Why do trans people stand by this? It even makes the feminist in me mad! Why are we standing by and allowing this intolerance??? GGs get angry because CDs are objectifying them...yeah, ok, whatever...TS are treated like a joke on the silver screen and it's A-OK. It's intolerable. I'm not okay with it. I'm not okay with this TS that played the part in the movie being okay with it. I'm mad at her too.

I'd have an identity crisis even AFTER I had transitioned. I don't know how y'all do it/put up with it. Props.

Also, I don't really think it's quite the same as a child with cleft palate though...the opening in the nasopharynx causes learning to speak quite difficult. Idk..we could go around and around all day about physical disabilities that may be analogous to be trans. But, I think that gets in the territory of trying to equate one experience to another. You and I could never know how it is to live life with a physical disability such as a cleft palate. We can say it is debilitating and imagine and leave it as such. But, I do agree with your analogy that the physical change could be very mentally needed for someone.

[sometimes_miss]

I may be alone in this. But as I become more learned about feminism and women in general, crossdressing loses a lot of its appeal (except maybe on Halloween). Especially considering how cliched many CDs are in their imitation of women.
That's their choice. You don't have to do it that way.


I think I'm reaching a point where I don't see the purpose in crossdressing anymore because I just don't view the genders as very different.
Then you're not paying attention. Sure, there are plenty of women 'dressing down'. But there are still plenty who dress to the 9's.


And the exaggerated femininity CDs put out isn't something I would admire in a GG. Perhaps it's because I lack a transvestic fetish as a motivating factor? Another thing happened when I visited a nightclub featuring drag performers: gay men acting out a rather absurd and offensive portrayal of women. Although I was at the show with GG friends who weren't bothered by it, something felt wrong to me. It seemed like a misogynistic display put on by men who don't desire women and may be jealous of them. Then when I got back to the Internet, the CDs I saw seemed an awful lot like drag queens. There is this major emphasis on stockings, heels, makeup and other such things that modern women in real life avoid wearing.
Not all of them avoid dressing like that all the time. And, drag queen shows are entertainment. They're charicatures of real life. Same way a war movie isn't real either.

People generally crossdress for one of two reasons; it's fun and/or exciting, or we feel we belong in those clothes more than in stereotypical men's clothing, and dressing as female distances us from feeling as male. There are a whole lot of other driving forces that make us dress this way also. PIck your own.

[Maddie22]

Equating this back to the OP, I think that trans people have to go through as much objectification as GGs. This may be the reason that some trans people aren't satisfied. There's an ideal that even MTF TS are expected to live up to that I think is absolutely unfair. Does that fall under the umbrella of feminism? What about equality for trans-women and trans-men that they don't have to be what 90% of the people expect them to be? A joke. Sex workers. Porn stars (same thing as sex worker?) Better looking than the average female or male. Honestly, THAT makes me REALLY angry and I don't have to spend a lot of time online before I fall onto those opinions. Feminists went very far for GGs, but transwomen and transmen are very much under prejudice. It's honestly no wonder that people transition and aren't satisfied. Everyone is telling you that you are supposed to look like these jokers that are on the Hangover pt 2...yeah, it was a good laugh and funny haha *sarcasm*...but, what's Not funny is that the tranny sex worker is the stereotypical, funny prostitute joke. So, what?...That's all people can come up with?...TS prostitutes?? Is that all a t-girl can hope for now? That she has to look like a prostitute and act like one too?

Everyone in the audience gags when they see the beautiful girl has a penis. THe guy in the movie is horrified he had sex with a "man." REALLY?!?!? If the movie was flipped...and it was about a GG...feminists would just sh*t. I know I would. (I did...well, I didn't sh*t...but, I was angry). Was a letter written to the makers of the movie to say that wasn't okay? Who is this porn star that is so much of a freaking loser that she allows people to treat her like a joke and a chick with a d*ck. Because, that's what they called her in the movie. That's NOT okay! Why do trans people stand by this? It even makes the feminist in me mad! Why are we standing by and allowing this intolerance??? GGs get angry because CDs are objectifying them...yeah, ok, whatever...TS are treated like a joke on the silver screen and it's A-OK. It's intolerable. I'm not okay with it. I'm not okay with this TS that played the part in the movie being okay with it. I'm mad at her too.



I really think this goes back to the Spiral of Silence Theory I talked about. It is hard to speak up when you feel you're the minority and that you're views wouldn't be accepted or that you'd be ridiculed or a number of other reasons. I think the majority of all people have experienced this in some way or another. (I really want to go back to grad school and I could really use this theory and apply it to some LGBTQ and do some major research) This is why many trans people are in hiding, and don't want to come out because of ridicule. We don't exactly have the support from allies either.

I speak up the majority of the time to people who talk poorly of trans, but there have been times where I've let it go based off of fear to some extent. I'm really guilty of this when it comes to my father. My fear of transitioning is not how I'll look or be perceived in society, but rather how will my family react and mostly my father (not that my mother isn't important, but I feel that I have her support no matter what). Thus I stay in a degree of silence around him about certain topics because of fear of losing him.

However others can also fear losing a place in society, or fear of having nothing at all. The trans person in the Hangover probably accepted that role because of a need to survive. It's not exactly the same, but what about people that are casted in movies as a "fat" or "ugly" character. How awful is that, why would you want to degrade yourself to that level. However on the flip side, they agreed to do that role for whatever reason and in turn they are not helping with their own cause and should be aware of that but it's still their decision to let themselves be typed cast. We have just amount of a right to be angry with them as the creator of the role. After all if no one would do that role, then that role would no longer be apart of the movie, whether it's the "tranny", "fat person" or "ugly person."

Getting into sex workers is a whole different ball game all together, and I can see a lot of different sides to that as well. And should the discussion lead to that direction I will definitely join in!

I love great conversations!

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I may be alone in this. But as I become more learned about feminism and women in general, crossdressing loses a lot of its appeal (except maybe on Halloween). Especially considering how cliched many CDs are in their imitation of women.

Ahhh, having issues reconciling it with your feminism? I did in the past quite a bit and to a less extent now.

First things first, here is how I personally define a few terms (they can mean other things to other people but this is how I personaly use them)

I use "Femme" to describe the things like shoes and makeup and liking fashion for it's own sake, the "girly girl" part.

Femininity is hard to define, to me it's the sort of "spiritual" part. I try to not make claims on this.

Feminism is the political and social movement towards the equality of women. I've identified as a feminist for a loooong time my guess is about 24 years.

And here's something I wrote a couple years back...elsewhere. I post it here to show people how I started to reconcile my femme-ness with my feminism


So a couple of weeks ago I wanted to show how I saw the pink fog, so I made a picture. I know, I know, visual imagery, but it helped.

Here are Pink Fog aspects of me:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/veronicamoonlit/3623830277/

There's those InStyle fashion books, full of looksism and classism and consumerism and beauty myth encouraging stuff.

a copy of Allure magazine, more of the same.

my Thigh high boots from Victoria's Secret, a waste of money. I bought them years ago because of how fabulous they looked and wanted them even if I knew I would never wear them.

a pair of satin evening pumps that I have never worn in public, from Victoria's Secret. Very classic actually, but still almost like new. Which is a sad thing.

A pair of lovely dressy strappy sandals, never worn. But I thought they were pretty. But not sensible, not practical

Hello Kitty battery fan, very pink and very stereotypically girly.

fake eyelashes, more artifice

russian red MAC lipgloss from 2004, very red and sultry but I'm not sultry

Big purple bottle is Stella McCartney Sheer Eau De Toilette. Bought back in 2005 at Sephora, the bottle is still pretty much full. Haven't bought any perfume or been to Sephora since, because it's a waste. I want to wear it, but don't.

Smaller bottle is Far and Away from Avon, given to me by my mother I think. She got it for herself and didn't like it. Years old, still full.

The book is Best Lesbian Erotica of 2008, a gift to me, from someone I love and respect greatly. But I feel guilty having it, not because it's erotica, but because I'm not a lesbian. I'm co-opting a lesbian identity.

And of course Thigh high hosiery.

That's the pink fog: impractical, constructed, too femme for my own good. Having things that don't get used because I'm a coward and a failure.

This is non pink fog:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/veronicamoonlit/3623830615/

Books about Feminism and Gender:

The book Fire with Fire by Naomi Wolf
The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf
Gender Outlaw by Kate Bornstein

Sensible loafers, and tailored loafer style heels, sensible shoes.

A beigey-pink neutral lipstick that's practical

practical "real woman" Trouser socks, not pnatyhose or thigh highs.

And I asked myself the question, would a certain author I respect greatly and my sister respect and want to be friends with the woman who was like what the first picture represents or the second. The second I thought, and I felt bad and I heard a voice in my head saying stuff like this:


"Look at you, you're no woman. Real women fight against all that pink and frilly crap. Hello ****ing Kitty, you're 42 years old, not 10. Just look at those silly impractical shoes, you're a constructed stereotype, just like page 218 in My Husband Betty:


Are Glamour girls the only women that crossdressers and transsexual women admire? Are they all that shallow?

I am half convinced the reason that there aren't more women involved in the crossdressing community is because the images of women crossdressers love are all the same old crap. Why would we want to be part of a community that advances and celebrates images of women that make us feel bad about ourselves? How can we feel welcome when all crossdressers want to talk about is shoes and makeup.

You're pathetic, you're no woman. You're no feminist, you're a delusional MAN who's never going to be a woman.

And I felt horrible and sad and didn't post.

But eventually over time I started thinking. There aren't two of me, there's only one. Don't I deserve to feel pretty or own "sexy" things without guilt? And my mind kept going back and forth: Yes! No! Yes! No! Be more like a certain usually non-femmy woman of my acquaintance. Be more like my sister Don't be constructed, be real.

And I remembered this:

http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/2009/04/30/bettys-birthday-present/

It was a gift to Betty, but also served as one to me in a way. My sister bought the femmethology books for me for my birthday after I sent her the links to the books.

Am I not like those femmes in the books and identified with them? Yes.

Doesn't mean that I am a femme too? I have said I am at other times. Yes I am.

(this is probably the most important part)

Wouldn't it be better to be true to that, than to think I have to become some perfect super feminist who disavows the femme as being bad all the time? Yes.

And where did I first learn about Naomi Wolf and Susan Faludi anyway? Glamour Magazine, back when The Beauty Myth and Backlash were first published. Glamour didn't suck then and strongly supported feminism (at least the third wave kind)

And didn't I read their writings and interviews in Glamour and begin identifying as a feminist? Yes, yes I did.

And are there femmes who are really cool and groovoi and feminists? Yes.

And do they like the things I like, and are fabulous and full of teh Awesome and Win? Yes.

And do I want to be just like them and full of teh Awesome? Yes.

So is there a problem with my femmeness being a bad thing? No, not in this way, but...

Shaddup. Am I full of pink fog? Probably not.

Very good, besides, who bought me my Hello Kitty tchotchke box? My sister.

And the Hello Kitty jammies? My sister.

And did I not just post that she has a Hello Kitty case for her Nintendo DS? Yes.

And finally, Am I not a woman? Ummmmmmm well. not yet, I haven't earned it yet.

Sigh, am I going to have to smack myself with an IRC trout until I say yes? No. I'll say it eventually, just not now. I need to experience life..full time...for that. Get some "woman experience points" :-)


In the gender in society class that I took, my final paper was on a book written by Julia Serano called Whipping Girl. ......One of the things that she has struggled with is the radical feminists, who are so radical that they become themselves pro masculinity and chauvinistic women.

Thank you for mentioning Whipping Girl, it gets mentioned to rarely here. I can also recommend the Femmethology volumes for femme feminists (especially ones that are lesbian or believe that they might end up there some day in the future)


She gives an example of how she was not allowed to an all female music festival since she was born a male thus experienced having the perceived male privilege. However this same music festival allowed female to male trans people, even though many of them were able to experience male privilege. Her challenge is that even when she lived life as a male she never was able to fully experience the male privilege because she was a very feminine male. Characteristics that are not accepted by straight males. We seem to automatically assume that a feminine male is gay or a sissy (a derived connotation of sissy than Shannigans was talking about). Why men can't take on some more perceived feminine traits of being more caring and nurturing, and having a softer more compassionate side to them is beyond me. Why we feel that those characteristics are often linked with femininity is perceived as weak, while aggression, competitiveness are linked to masculinity and perceived as being strong is a true social injustice.



That well describes the book.


I have found when reading posts by transwomen that they seem to focus on the same things that GGs do when grasping for explanations on femininity and the female identity. It is about much more than what the person wears, in other words. Why is it like this? I think because transwomen (or transmen, for that matter) identify as a certain sex with or without the clothes. In other words, the clothes aren't making you into a woman...you are already a woman but have been born in the wrong gender. Perhaps the clothes are an important part of making you feel "right," but they aren't the deciding factor.

I consider the clothes to be a "crutch" I wish I could get gendered "correctly" without them, but I need the "help" In a women's tee-shirt and jeans, I don't look like a woman, I need more "femme" signifiers.


Either way, I just wanted to point out that in my posts I was talking about CDs and not trans-women. I consider trans-women to be just as much of a woman as I am, even if we have different paths and experiences along our road to living as a woman.

:hugs:

I am very careful about using the word "woman" in reference to myself....in fact, I don't. I don't feel like I've "earned it" yet. I may never earn it, but I hope to.

Veronica

[Shananigans]

Veronica, if you aren't going to use that Stella...mind sending it my way? That was my signature scent for a long time...I could get back into it. :)

And, I really enjoyed reading your post and I hope that the OP comes back to read it too. I think it was a great example of how to reconcile CDing and feminism.

[Pythos]

There is a string in this conversation that I really do not like. It seems that those like myself that really and truly likes skirts and other "girly" stuff, is in some way doing something wrong. Is in some way insulting to women, and is just a joke.

I don't know about you all but I like to dress in something OTHER THAN what everybody else is wearing, and I like skirts or leggings. I like my goth look too, but that is already limited. I LIKE makeup, and what it can do for my eyes (why don't men draw attention to their eyes?).

Now there are certain silly behaviors MtoF CDs do that I don't think help matters, and as I have said before I dislike the "sissy" look.

But please lets not say in order to respect women we have to dull down our looks. That is part of the problem with our culture now, everyone in many ways dresses dully most of the time. I feel I am pushing some big boundaries when I walk about in a decent androgynous style but with shiny black leggings on. They really stand out when in a morass of denim. LOL

[Maddie22]

I truly believe that what you wear on the outside doesn't reflect who you are on the inside. With that being said, why is it bad to like to wear nice clothing, male or female? I understand all points that are made by Pythos and Veronica, who are taking a bit of the opposite approach. Clothes don't make you feminine or masculine. You can wear "guyish or manly" clothes and be feminine. You can wear "girly or pretty" clothes and be masculine. It's your approach to life that matters the most. How you feel about equality for all individuals. Like Dr. King states, can't we view people from the content of their character rather than their skin or what they wear?

Most people don't know this, but the original skin heads were from New York. They were part of the new punk rock scene of the early 80's. They included African American's and Caucasians, and were highly motivated by equality. It wasn't until later that different factions took this look into being for white power. Now because of what society has constructed a skin head look, the original movement by them is forever lost as being a racist movement. The point is that you can't judge a book by it's cover, and just because some people have took a positive image and turned it into a negative doesn't mean every person who appears that way is like that now is a negative human being.

Like I said before, I like to look nice no matter I'm male or female. It doesn't dictate my likes, tastes, or beliefs.

[donnalee]

Most people don't know this, but the original skin heads were from New York. They were part of the new punk rock scene of the early 80's. They included African American's and Caucasians, and were highly motivated by equality. It wasn't until later that different factions took this look into being for white power. Now because of what society has constructed a skin head look, the original movement by them is forever lost as being a racist movement. The point is that you can't judge a book by it's cover, and just because some people have took a positive image and turned it into a negative doesn't mean every person who appears that way is like that now is a negative human beings.Actually, as I recall, the originals were from Britain, known as "rockers" and rose up in opposition to the "mods" (kind of a predicessor of the hippies) in the early '60s. The closest parrallel I can come up with is Oliver Cromwell et al. vs. Royalty; mods were middle class and wore 3 piece suits and long hair and rockers were working class and were distinguished by very short or shaven hair and heavy work boots. This is recalling info I acquired at the time; apologies for any errors. The skinheads appeared in the late '70s.

[Fionax]

'The lady doth protest to much me thinks' to quote from Hamlet and is n't it all so very old hat surely? We are now in the era of post-feminism and far from burning bras the fem world is flaunting them in every colour, shape and trim you can imagine both inside and ouside their tops.The brief period when butch women in dungarees and unwashed hair lead the pack has long gone; role models from Madonna to Lady Gaga have become the icons of present day youth who have absolutely no doubts about themselves. The remarkable cloning of the dream woman as a result of the cosmetic surgeon's skills: face lifts, breast enhancement, tummy tucks, botox; hair extensions, the facility for older women to dye their greying locks and of course contraception have revolutionised the way women regard themselves. I very much doubt that any amount of cross dressers putting themsels into a special purdah will have any effect on the way women's world is evolving.

[Shananigans]

There is a string in this conversation that I really do not like. It seems that those like myself that really and truly likes skirts and other "girly" stuff, is in some way doing something wrong. Is in some way insulting to women, and is just a joke.

I don't know about you all but I like to dress in something OTHER THAN what everybody else is wearing, and I like skirts or leggings. I like my goth look too, but that is already limited. I LIKE makeup, and what it can do for my eyes (why don't men draw attention to their eyes?).

Now there are certain silly behaviors MtoF CDs do that I don't think help matters, and as I have said before I dislike the "sissy" look.

But please lets not say in order to respect women we have to dull down our looks. That is part of the problem with our culture now, everyone in many ways dresses dully most of the time. I feel I am pushing some big boundaries when I walk about in a decent androgynous style but with shiny black leggings on. They really stand out when in a morass of denim. LOL

But, no one has been saying anything about that. As the thread evolved we moved past looking at CDing in itself as anti-feminist, but discussed certain behaviors and attitudes that could be interpreted as such.


'The lady doth protest to much me thinks' to quote from Hamlet and is n't it all so very old hat surely? We are now in the era of post-feminism and far from burning bras the fem world is flaunting them in every colour, shape and trim you can imagine both inside and ouside their tops.The brief period when butch women in dungarees and unwashed hair lead the pack has long gone; role models from Madonna to Lady Gaga have become the icons of present day youth who have absolutely no doubts about themselves. The remarkable cloning of the dream woman as a result of the cosmetic surgeon's skills: face lifts, breast enhancement, tummy tucks, botox; hair extensions, the facility for older women to dye their greying locks and of course contraception have revolutionised the way women regard themselves. I very much doubt that any amount of cross dressers putting themsels into a special purdah will have any effect on the way women's world is evolving.

:facepalm:

[pj]

Actually, as I recall, the originals were from Britain, known as "rockers" and rose up in opposition to the "mods" (kind of a predicessor of the hippies) in the early '60s.Half right. ;)

They started in England in the 60s and were known as skinheads from the beginning. "Rockers" wore a different costume, similar to that of 50s rockers like Elvis, Gene Vincent or Eddie Cochran.

When punk rock started in America in New York city in the 70s, it was very diverse and inclusive. In the early 80s when hardcore punk reared its ugly head in California, some of the kids shaved their heads and the punk rock skinhead movement (and costume) started up. They took on many of the violent aspects of the English skinheads of the 60s (though they were still tame in comparison), with less of the racist overtones.

Then (yes, there's more!) another decade after than, the young Aryans in America and around the world adopted the skinhead look and attitude, but added racism as a fundamental tenet. Being Aryans and all.

Note that none of this interfered with their cross dressing. To keep things relevant. ;)

[Pythos]

Shananigans,

There were a couple of posts were there was mention of "girly" styles being a characture of women. I may have misstook the one post about the "pink fog" where sheer hosiery, skirts, and other such things were "not feminine" (which blows my mind) and that trouser socks, pants suits, were feminine. (I may have just missunderstood the meaning of that post though).

I have also read threads where there was some derision against cds that wear skirts when the GGs wear jeans. (though that is an interpolation on my part, I am short on time and need to recompose this if this response is missunderstood).

[Stephanie47]

I really think a person does not choose to be a cross dresser. I have no clue why I am a cross dresser, and, gave up trying to psychoanalyze myself years ago. I just accept it. Now, what I have decided to wear is a choice. My choice was made by the period in which I was raised. It predated women wearing pants, let alone jeans. In the 1950's few women wore pants. Many of the dresses appear to have been functional, i.e., that old beat up 'house dress' my mother wore. My en femme preference is strictly a pretty dress with appropriate undergarments, i.e., slips, girdles and stockings. I guess my fashion idols would be found on Ozzie and Harriet, Leave It to Beaver, etc. I know few women ever glided through the kitchen dressed in petticoats and a dress to prepare meals for Ward, Wally and The Beaver.

I see many really cute outfits on GG's. Low rider jeans and sexy tops with heels or boots are really attractive. If I were just starting out my life as a cross dresser, I'd have that look in my wardrobe along with those attractive dresses that hit several inches above the knee. Of course, I'd still be buying those sexy slips from the 1950's through the 1980's.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Veronica, if you aren't going to use that Stella...mind sending it my way? That was my signature scent for a long time...I could get back into it. :)

I would, but I really love it myself and the bottle is sooooo pretty. I WANT to wear it, but I just don't.


And, I really enjoyed reading your post and I hope that the OP comes back to read it too. I think it was a great example of how to reconcile CDing and feminism.

Or if one identifies as a TS and is having issues reconciling their femme-ness as well. :-) Pretty much began identifying as TS back in late 2007/early 2008.


There is a string in this conversation that I really do not like. It seems that those like myself that really and truly likes skirts and other "girly" stuff, is in some way doing something wrong. Is in some way insulting to women, and is just a joke. But please lets not say in order to respect women we have to dull down our looks.

Oh no, I'm not saying that at all, in fact I'm saying the opposite. That liking skirts and whatnot doesn't make me any less of a feminist than some flannel wearing radfem.


But, no one has been saying anything about that. As the thread evolved we moved past looking at CDing in itself as anti-feminist, but discussed certain behaviors and attitudes that could be interpreted as such.

Exactly.





There were a couple of posts were there was mention of "girly" styles being a characture of women. I may have misstook the one post about the "pink fog" where sheer hosiery, skirts, and other such things were "not feminine" (which blows my mind) and that trouser socks, pants suits, were feminine. (I may have just missunderstood the meaning of that post though).

Yes, you did misunderstand. You might want to re-read the part where I define "femme" (the clothes stuff0 and "femininity" (the spiritual mental stuff) as two different things. At the time I wrote that I was having a tough time reconciling my femme-ness with feminism. I had taken the radfem's criticism of "femmes" to heart. And I was afraid of offending non-femme feminists of my acquaintance with my love of femme things.


I have also read threads where there was some derision against cds that wear skirts when the GGs wear jeans. (though that is an interpolation on my part, I am short on time and need to recompose this if this response is missunderstood).

Oh I've seen that at other places. Though I also believe that jeans can also be girly girly femme depending on accessories and whatnot. It's just that it is harder for me to get correctly gendered the less femme I am...at the moment anyway....sigh.

Veronica

[Asche]

Very interesting thread, I'm sorry I didn't see it earlier (Real Life has a way of interfering with Web life.) A lot of what I might have said has been said, and said better, by others already, but I can't resist throwing a few more vegetables into the stew.

I've long considered myself a feminist, or at least a "fellow traveller," and ever since I started actually trying wearing skirts and dresses and such (rather than just fantasizing about it), my feminist perspective has been a large part of how I deal with my desires and my integration of them into my sense of who I am. I've long questioned what most people in Western society assume about what it means to be male or be female, and find that most of what is said is pure baloney, regardless of the credentials of who says it. My questioning has gone into overdrive each time I try something new and look at myself in the mirror and then wonder: who is that that I see?

I don't see anything anti-feminist about dressing in "women's" clothes, or trying to "pass", or wearing girly or sissy fashions. If anything, when men wear these styles, it can eat away at the cultural assumption that skirts = female, etc.

What bothers me more is the way some CDs will talk as if they are being women when they do this, especially when they imply that that is what womanhood is about. There's enough propaganda out there claiming that a woman isn't a woman if she doesn't have makeup on or isn't dressed like a model (or a prostitute) or doesn't have 6 inch heels, without CDs adding to it. They may feel that they are just trying to explain how they feel, but we do not live in a vacuum. How we see ourselves and describe ourselves is both deeply affected by the culture that we live in (like fish are affected by water) and also influences it. It may seem natural to equate, say, make-up and high heels with womanhood, because that's what we've grown up with, but when we don't make the effort to examine and re-evaluate these ideas, we perpetuate them. To think and talk in sexist categories is to reinforce them.

[donnalee]

Half right. ;)

They started in England in the 60s and were known as skinheads from the beginning. "Rockers" wore a different costume, similar to that of 50s rockers like Elvis, Gene Vincent or Eddie Cochran.

When punk rock started in America in New York city in the 70s, it was very diverse and inclusive. In the early 80s when hardcore punk reared its ugly head in California, some of the kids shaved their heads and the punk rock skinhead movement (and costume) started up. They took on many of the violent aspects of the English skinheads of the 60s (though they were still tame in comparison), with less of the racist overtones.

Then (yes, there's more!) another decade after than, the young Aryans in America and around the world adopted the skinhead look and attitude, but added racism as a fundamental tenet. Being Aryans and all.

Note that none of this interfered with their cross dressing. To keep things relevant. ;) Thanks for the correction and addendum. As I said in the post, this is from memory of an article I read about 50 yrs. ago.
On a totally different note, your avatar looks very much like a high school picture of my late sister; the resemblance is eerie.

[Iskandra]

Well, any outside group can create friction. I would expect straight men and ultra Conservative types to be more of an immediate threat to CDing, though.

Well there is that scene in ruling class with Peter O'Toole where a straight and ultraconservative man is found hanging dead wearing a tutu.. :)
But then different rules apply when you're rich apparantly! lol
Awesome movie!

[Pythos]

What bothers me more is the way some CDs will talk as if they are being women when they do this, especially when they imply that that is what womanhood is about. There's enough propaganda out there claiming that a woman isn't a woman if she doesn't have makeup on or isn't dressed like a model

and conversely a man is not a male if he DOES put some or all of these items on.

[pj]

On a totally different note, your avatar looks very much like a high school picture of my late sister; the resemblance is eerie.Well, I'm sorry you lost your sister. But I'm flattered by the "high school picture" part. ;) Makeup is a bit of a time machine, isn't it. If only I could put something on to get my high school eyes and knees back...