Speaking of identity...

[spotlessMind]

Ok, I want to make a general inquiry. My last post was heavy and negatively charged, so I'll take a different approach and try to be a bit more positive (or just neutral at least) and make this more appealing to be involved in.

This forum's basic model is designed towards a community of people who share an interest in cross-dressing, obviously. But like any other community, associated topics of interest come up. For me, the topic of identity has been searing my brain lately. So I'm wondering about how the rest of you perceive it, handle it, portray it. I'll "open the phone lines" by telling you, in short, how I do for myself.

I've created some form of an alter-ego. Another side of me. Whether that is out of personal necessity or fear or just the natural course of my own identity, I don't know. I set that side apart in certain ways such as creating separate possessions. Clothing, makeup, likes and dislikes, personality traits even. She has her own online identity via email, facebook and youtube (recent), and *coughcough* forum accounts. I understand that this is possibly a matter of protecting myself from being "outed". Apparently, it's part of keeping things to a safe level of personal exploration.

I'm aware that many of you integrate this side of you more explicitly with your day-to-day lives than I do. I also understand that, for others, it's nothing more than a closet interest. What I'm curious about is how much of it contributes to who you are. Do you consider yourself defined to any extent by your "femme" self? To what extent? Do you separate this side of you? Why?

I'm a bit disappointed with my own separation. I want my other side to have the same shot at normal life as the side I currently allow to be free. Do you feel this way too?


EDIT: To avoid confusion about me using the word "side", I want to add that it is simply an anchor word I chose and can be replaced with a term more appropriate to you. Whether I perceive myself as being multi-sided or not doesn't mean you do.

[VioletJourney]

My female "side" is the same person as my male side. But who says I can't present like a woman but still be a man? Why can't a man have nice long hair, makeup, a dress, and heels without pretending they're a woman?

[spotlessMind]

My female "side" is the same person as my male side. But who says I can't present like a woman but still be a man? Why can't a man have nice long hair, makeup, a dress, and heels without pretending they're a woman?

So you are saying you DON'T separate your male and female sides, yes? And you rationalize this with rhetoric?

Sorry if that sounds sarcastic, but I'm actually being serious! =)

[VioletJourney]

So you are saying you DON'T separate your male and female sides, yes? And you rationalize this with rhetoric?

Sorry if that sounds sarcastic, but I'm actually being serious! =)
Yes. In fact, I'd say there isn't a female side, just a male side who prefers the female visual style.

[spotlessMind]

I see. That's actually fascinating to me. I won't go into too much (thread-blending) detail, but the long and short of it is that I envy your conviction ;)

Follow-up question: I can probably assume the answer, but to be clear, you are as public about your preference of female style just as much as you are about, say, the music you like, or your religious beliefs? For example, you would have no trepidation expressing it on your facebook account, or in-person conversations with people you know?

EDIT: I browsed through your other forum posts and found that you are not entirely forthcoming or public about it. Which is entirely your choice and decision and I make no judgement about that. However, it appears as though your conviction road-blocks somewhere between being sure of yourself and being... not sure of yourself? If you feel that your rhetoric is adequate rationalization to being who and what you are, then what is contrasting that enough to prevent you from fully being who and what you are? I'm assuming fear of judgement from others, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[suchacutie]

When we discovered that "Tina" existed, and had probably existed forever, the immediate question was: "who is this Tina person?". It was never a question of somehow changing was was my "male" self, as what had been my overtly male self had Tina's influence. In order to understand Tina, we felt that she needed to have a life of her own. Once we knew who Tina was, we could figure out how she played and plays a role in the masculine self.

In letting Tina build her own life we found out that she has serious likes and dislikes that don't parallel the masculine persona. My wife very quickly picked up the fact that Tina has her own opinions on issues, is very much organized and detail-oriented, and is really building her own experiential persona! It really is fascinating and has been incredibly exciting to experience. It's not unusual for my wife to ask (with me in drab) "how do you thing Tina would handle that?".

In hindsight, this seems completely natural, as the male and female brains just don't function in the same way. Why should our male and female personas necessarily act in the same way? We change voice and along with voice change usage and syntax. We have different deportment. Our method of handling organization is different. When we take on our female personas, it seems easy that it would be so much different.

Having said that, I can understand that those of you who have been switching back and forth from childhood might not have quite as much separation. For me, having lived 55 years as only male, it's easier to see my two selves as really quite separate.

It really is quite wonderful

[Karren H]

I don't have two sides... A masculine side and a feminine side... I have just one... Me... Caught somewhere in between... not dependent on the clothing I wear...

[spotlessMind]

I don't have two side... A masculine side and a feminine side... I have just one... Me... Caught somewhere in between... not dependent on the clothing I wear...

Understood, but what does that have to do with what I brought up? I think you might have tunneled-visioned in on the terminology ("sides") a bit too much ;)

Ok... I'll start a bit more straight-forward and ask you questions directly. To what extent are you public with your cross-dressing? Is it something you keep exclusively private? You've obviously created a name, which could be viewed as a separation (not that i'm saying it is). In your best opinion, does this name represent an alternate identity you are aware of, or is it simply a part of a hobby or interest (such as a musician naming their band)? I guess what I want to know is if you create any separations, and for what purpose? For example, somebody might have a hobby that they know is not smiled upon by the general public. So they create separation through privacy or anonymity to protect themselves from ensuing adversity. Would this be accurate to your situation?

I risk offending people to dig a bit deeper and get more substantial answers. I'm sorry if I have offended you. Please understand my intent!

[GMCD]

I once believed that I had to stop being one person to be another person. Joe had to stop somewhere so that Synthia could live and there was a line between them where Joe was Joe and Synthia was Synthia. This created a lot of problems for me as I entered into living fully as Synthia because Joe never really went away. He was still me even though I didn't want to be him. Yes, it was a terribly confused time. I had longed to escape Synthia all of my life but she never left so I decided to try and escape Joe instead but he wouldn't leave either.

In the end, I realized that I was neither Joe nor Synthia exclusively, I am and always will be me, just me. It's taken the better part of 15-plus years to come to terms with me and who I am and what I am and making peace with being a man who wears women's clothing. In that time, I lived as a shapeless mass of a human with no care for my appearance whatsoever. I found answers in religion that helped me establish who I am and then I became that and just let things go where they would. In time I put the dress back on, got the heels out of the closet, and I put myself in front of a camera and made images of myself that I looked at for long hours as I contemplated just what it was I was looking at and what I was looking for.

Today, I'm at peace being me. I'm a man - I can't deny what's between my legs, how I'm built, and more importantly how I most naturally interact with the world around me. I am a creative person - a video producer/photographer/graphics designer/writer. I am a believer - I am at peace with who I understand made me and I want to be a good person and a help to other people because of the peace I myself have found. I am a crossdresser - I like women's clothes, how they fit and how they feel how I look in them (even when not "properly" glammed up).

In any clothing I still love to make images, play video games, chat online, eat sunflower seeds until my lips hurt, and collect plushies. In any clothing I still want to be a help and a friend and I still give thanks for whatever help from "out there" I can get to move along in my own life.

I am just me. It took a long time to get here and be comfortable in my own skin, but here I am and I am just me.

Just my experience. Much love!

[GMCD]

To answer your clarification:

There is no alter ego when I am dressed. Putting on a dress and heels is like choosing to wear my Nikes instead of my Doc Martins. I have no separate name for myself in a dress, though I will sometimes adopt a version of my name to help others deal with me more easily (i.e. letting people call me Sylvia instead of Sylvester <--not my name).

I do keep my dressing confidential, however. I work with a wide variety of people and personalities and I like to try to keep a semblance of peace with as many people as I can. In most circumstances the issue would never come up in any form anyways so deception is a moot point. In other situations, revealing my dressing would create friction that is unnecessary so I don't reveal it. This is not, however a manner of having multiple "identities". It's more like working with someone without every knowing that they are Lutheran or something - there's nothing wrong with being Lutheran but it doesn't necessarily need to be broadcast all the time either.

By the way, there is no offense in asking me a question ever. Offense is when you tell me that my answer is wrong. You haven't offended me.

Much love!

[spotlessMind]

GMCD,

That was a really informative and insightful reply, thanks! You're bang on. There are no wrong answers. I try to clarify the question when it appears to be misunderstood. USUALLY it's because I didn't form my question sensibly or effectively to what I actually wanted to know HA HA ;) Your reply addressed exactly what I was asking, which is ... pretty cool!

Much love back at ya

[spotlessMind]

I wonder how many people I've scared off with my crazy (albeit, brilliant) scrutiny. LOL!

Come on, don't be afraid! I don't bite, I just nibble. ;)

[kendra_gurl]

Well said GMCD.

I too am pretty much the same person at all times. It would actually scare me if what clothing I wore made me take on such a different personna that my views conflicted with those while in Drab. That would be multi personallity disorder.

SpotlessMind:
If what your asking is do some of us protect ourselves by alternate identies on the internet from our normal male identies of course we do. And you will find that the extent of how secret we keep those identies will depend on the whole spectrum of where each of us are in being a closeted crossdresser to being an outed transgendered. Everyone is different so I don't think you will find the answer your looking for untill you decide for yourself where you are in this spectrum.
In reguards to your question in post#8 Let's say your addicted to porn sites on the internet(hypothetical of course) would not most anyone protect this from being know by others? Perhaps a very few close friend who shared the same interest but generally not to anyone else?

Okay I just reread your other thread about this and it seemed you got some pretty good advice there. What exatly makes you feel it was "heavy and negatively charged"? I don't see that at all. You mentioned you had been spending the day fishing with a BUDDY DOING GUY STUFF but then noticed women and wanted to be like them too. I have been there done that. While out with friends on weekend hunting trips doing about as manley stuff as possible and very content I'd sit all alone in a deer stand and think to myself I would rather be at home trying on different feminine outfits or makeup looks than here freezing my ass off.
There are crossdressers, there are transgendered people, never heard of it before but perhaps there should be a classifacation of Dual Gendered. For those of us who can be content to be really masculine when we want and really feminine when we want. I think Crossdressing and keeping it relative private from the rest of the world is the best option for me so I accept that. YOU DO NOT have to make a choice to be one or the other exclusively. You may try to blend the two but I really doubt that will protect you from the adversity you seem to be fearing.

On a lighter note. If your avatar is an actual photo of you. perhaps the way to solve your issues is to move to Vegas and become a professional female impersonator. Be the man you want everday and just be the woman of your dreams while on stage getting paid for it. You Got the Look

Hope this helps

[PattiMichaels]

I think we all have multiple identities based upon what image we wish to project at the time. Regardless of the image I project, I still have a basic identity underneath it all - no matter what image I project, I'm still a genetic male who has many diverse likes and dislikes that form my identity. Maybe that's what's so confusing about trying to identify as one specific person or personality?

[Kathi Lake]

I try to be Kathi in my daily life, just not with the same wardrobe, name, makeup, . . .

:)

I don't see a split in my life as much as an emphasis. In my male life, very few people in my circle of family, friends, and acquaintances know of Kathi. Some know that something is up - possibly due to the laser work on my face, my shaped brows, or other 'body-modifications' as my wife calls them, or just a feminine undercurrent to my personality. Kathi is there, but below the surface.

When I'm out and dressed, there is no magic transformation. I don't change much of anything about myself, with the exception of my appearance. I still use my male name. I still use my male voice. I'm still me. Nothing has changed, but the emphasis is more on the feminine than the masculine. In each 'guise' I live my life as I normally would. No alter ego. No subterfuge (except for getting out of the house without the kids or neighbors seeing me). Just me. call it pathologically normal, if you will, but it works pretty well for me.

Addition: After reading Kendra's post, I guess I do want to reconsider a bit. I have a Facebook account for Kathi. There is the only other place (other than here) where I go by the name Kathi. Many of the friends are from this site. Some are not, and are women who may or may not know my actual sex. When I entered the online White House Black Market contest, I received many friend requests from those who saw my entry, but obviously did not read the text saying that I was a male. As a result, a few women friended me. They know me as a woman, and those friendships have resulted in some of their friends befriending me as well, as well as some "Mom" groups and others. So, I feel I have to tread lightly at times, using phrases like "my spouse" instead of "my wife." Basically, I don't know who knows. I thought one of the WHBM managers who friended me thought I was a woman until one time I was chatting with her and something came up where I led with, "Ummm, you *do* know that I'm not a woman, right?" She said of course she knew. So, I guess I do have a bit of 'separation' in my life.

Kathi

[Kathryn Philips]

spotlessMind,

I have an issue with my gender identity. It does not align very well with my physical body. I am partially transgendered, but not sure how much. This is a fact unknown to family,friends and colleagues and which at present must keep secret.
To deal with this I feminise my appearance at every opportunity available. The rest of the time I deal with this by creating a female persona on the internet. Like you I have an email account, flickr account and youtube account. This way I can interact with real people as the woman I feel I am partially on the inside. And, I have a name for her, Kathryn.

And speaking of names, I was wondering why don't you use a female name? SpotlessMind seems very gender neutral

[spotlessMind]

Kendra, thanks for the reply, you make some good points! Let me just quote you and respond to a couple things in particular...

"would not most anyone protect this from being know by others?"

Yes, absolutely, but I think there are potentially more reasons than just the social taboo of it for this. I'd be curious of how a minority within a minority might respond to that, too ;)

"Everyone is different so I don't think you will find the answer your looking for untill you decide for yourself where you are in this spectrum."

I'm not actually looking for a particular answer from those who choose to reply, to be honest. I'm just creating a group discussion about something I am interested in. I have no expectations, but you never know what kind of clarity you might find when you stimulate yourself on a particular topic in an open-forum type of setting. I often look to others to find myself and I think we all do more than we are willing to accept. Sometimes, somebody else says it better than I could. Like a song that seems to speak directly to you ;) I accept that it is an ideal method, and not necessarily a realistic one.

Okay I just reread your other thread about this and it seemed you got some pretty good advice there. What exatly makes you feel it was "heavy and negatively charged"?

Nono!! I did get excellent advice! I'm so sorry it came off like I was downplaying the importance of it. That's not what I meant. What I meant was *I* was focused on negativity. I'm conflicted, which is a negative feeling. That's all I meant! The advice was great, and appreciated and fantastic and it means a lot to me!

There are crossdressers, there are transgendered people, never heard of it before but perhaps there should be a classifacation of Dual Gendered.

See? You've said something that speaks to me! hehe. Dual gendered. This interests me on a personal level.

And yeah that's me in my avatar. I'd say it's misleading, except, it's not edited heavily. It's selectively chosen and cropped from a handful of other photos that would be much less impressive IMO lol. Bit of contrast and softening too. I'm my own worst critic ;)

xo

[carhill2mn]

Long ago I came to the conclusion that I was a man who liked to look a woman and act as a lady; ie. a CD. I stil present as a man when that is what is expected by family and friends. I have reduced the amount of body hair, I keep my eyebrows trimmed, I wear gel nails with a light polish even when I present as a man. This makes it easier for me to be able to present a feminine image when I want to.

When I am in male mode I try to act like a "nice man". When I am en femme I try to act like a lady.

I don't know if this will be of any help to you in your stuggles or not.

[spotlessMind]

Patti: I'm going to have to slap you for getting me thinking even more. GRRR hehe ;)

Kathi: That's good! It sounds like you have found some "zen" so to speak. Can I ask if you are fully satisfied with this situation? Is there anything you would change given the magic-wand scenario?

Kathryn: Wow, so candid! I want to say thanks for being that candid because I know it's never easy! I relate to you. To answer your question, I think the reason I haven't picked a name (here) is a matter of ambivalence. My privacy is determined, unfortunately, by my extreme ambivalence. I don't like being on the fence, but that is where I tend to sit. I will take a step and say that I have, infact, named my female self. Her (my) name is Kinsey. It's not a common first name by any means. I adopted it from the last name of a semi-famous scientist who was actually male. I like the way it sounds and that it has some connection to meaning. According to my facebook page, my full name is Kinsey Kay. This is .. how it is! hehe

[Kathi Lake]

Kathi: That's good! It sounds like you have found some "zen" so to speak. Can I ask if you are fully satisfied with this situation? Is there anything you would change given the magic-wand scenario?Honestly, the only thing I would change in a 'magic wand' scenario is how it makes my wife feel. It is literally the only negative thing in our relationship. Yay for me that I get to be the one bringing trouble into the marriage. :)

Why is that the only thing I'd change? Simple. I feel that I have a pretty sweet gig going here. I'm a guy in a world where guys have very little expectations of them. Women seem to feel that men are blithering idiots whose only purpose in life is to leave the seat up and change the oil in our cars. You know what? That's a standard I can live up to! :)

Seriously, being a guy is definitely the path of least resistance. No one cares what we wear, etc.. We're kind of expected to be careless slobs. I'm generalizing, but you get the point. As a guy, I don't have to try that hard. Contrast that with the times I get to be Kathi (and by that I mean dressing up, not being someone else). I get to wear pretty clothes. I get to wear makeup. I get to do things that I could not comfortably do dressed as a guy. It's fun. Call it zen. Call it what you will, but I am very comfortable being me - no matter how I choose to present myself.

Kathi

[Yasmine]

Dear SpotlessMind, you write so lucidly and effectively, It's such a pleasure to read your posts,

In response to your general identity inquiry I'm going to drill down onto your OP, third paragraph, third sentence, after the comma mark - and having not already read your previous "heavy and negatively charged" post - I'll respond with the following which I'll frame in a loose context as I don't know you:


Perhaps of the strongest definers of identity is with whom one identifies with, and the result of which, which is how one identifies as. As your seem like such an inquisitive person; I'll suggest that in your search for understanding that you could direct your search as to why a person would wish to identify as another in the first instance. As a further "map" to exploring this territory; You could try to pin down what could be gained emotionally by being this other.

It sounds very simple but the result of my search was not found printed in a book such "my gender workbook". However, I learned what I needed anyway, in tears, the obvious truth, a revelation, found when my life was explained to me by somebody else.

xx

[kendra_gurl]

To answer your question, I think the reason I haven't picked a name (here) is a matter of ambivalence. My privacy is determined, unfortunately, by my extreme ambivalence. I don't like being on the fence, but that is where I tend to sit.

Perhaps if you could elaborate a little more of what your ambivalent about? Your sitting on a fence, what is on each side of that fence that you are trying to decide between? Have you looked really closely? is it possible there are really two fences with a neutral zone in between them? Like A Demilitarized Zone.

Violet seems to not worry at all about blending or separating her gender, content to just be herself
carhill and Kathi and perhaps Karren seem to have success in blending their genders without attracting too much attention.
GMCD and Patti seem more like myself separating the two when convenient for us.
Kathryn takes separating to a slightly different level but also tries to blend them at the same time but confesses she is partially transgendered so if it works for her great.
suchacutise takes separating to a total alter ego.

This is what i meant by not getting the answer your looking for until you decide exactly what your ambivalent about.

[Dawn cd]

Let me suggest that identities change all the time. Fingerprints don't change, or DNA, but identity—the sense of one's self—does change. It's called growth. A couple may get divorced after 15 years when a wife (or husband) announces, "I'm not the same person I was fifteen years ago." Sometimes the change is so dramatic that the person changes names. Abram becomes Abraham, Saul becomes Paul, or Norma Jeane Mortenson becomes Marilyn Monroe. I think CDs feel this change so keenly because we feel gender is one of those things we are "locked into", like DNA. When a new gender-person emerges we think we are dealing with an alter ego, but it is really just the same person caught at the millisecond of change. Gender is much more fluid than most people think. It is partly biological, but most of it is made up of social constructs, such as: boys play with guns, girls play with dolls, boys have short hair, girls wear skirts, etc. To a certain extent we can choose gender.

I think that in my case when I was 3-4 years old I looked at my parents and decided I wanted to be more like my mother. I would rather stay home, cook meals and wear dresses like my mother than contend at the workplace all day like my aggressive, type-A father. It wasn't Oedipal and it didn't turn me into a gay man, but it did have a profound effect on the way I imagined myself genderwise. Nevertheless, I was constrained by social constructs from doing anything about it—until the freedom of adulthood gave me opportunities. As it turned out, I never became a fully gendered woman. I am slightly envious of those who have. But I can say that the part of me that is female in gender has colored, softened, and transformed my maleness. Yet I am one person, not a split personality; I have but one identity that chooses to remain fluid in gender.

And I love my sisters.

Dawn

[sissystephanie]

I guess I am like some others on this forum!! I am a man who likes to wear feminine clothing!! The person that I am is the same, no matter what kind of clothing I have on!! Yes, I do wear panties and a bra almost every day, regardless of what may be covering them. But I am not 2 different persons, I am just one man. I have no desire to actually be a woman. When my late wife was alive and did my makeup and fixed my wig, I easily passed as Stephanie. BTW, she gave me the name of Stephanie shortly after we were married. I had previously gone by Sally!! Now that she is gone, I still dress as Stephanie but wear no makeup or a wig. In other words, I am a guy in a skirt or dress!! And very rarely does anyone pay any attention to me!! Being a widower I do go out to eat a lot. And rarely am I dressed as a man!! But I get served just like everyone else!!

Spotless, the one thing that is very necessary to have is a proper attitude. By that I mean an attitude that says, "I belong in these feminine clothes!!" I probably don't really walk like a lady, but when I walk around a mall dressed enfemme I think I am walking that way!! Because I have that attitude!!!

If you spend time sitting on the fence, you have not yet accepted who and what you are. Decide who you are and get off that fence!!

[spotlessMind]

Perhaps if you could elaborate a little more of what your ambivalent about? Your sitting on a fence, what is on each side of that fence that you are trying to decide between? Have you looked really closely? is it possible there are really two fences with a neutral zone in between them? Like A Demilitarized Zone.

This is what i meant by not getting the answer your looking for until you decide exactly what your ambivalent about.

That's a great question but I'm afraid I would end up writing you a novel to explain my ambivalence. I'll try to keep it short but keep in mind this won't do it any justice at all.

My ambivalence affects almost everything in my life. Regarding gender identity, it influences me in many ways. I find myself never feeling sure about who I am. Part of me is saying I'm classically transgendered (or dual gendered possibly). The other part writes off those feelings as basic dysfunctions. Part of me even laughs and proclaims "you're a complete idiot, stop with this stupidity". The problem this creates for me is indecision. Ambivalence is the source and indecision is the result. The most frustrating aspect of ambivalence is that each part seems to weigh in equally. I occasionally lean more in one direction than another, but this balances itself over time. Ambivalence is a monster, it really is. It haunts me. But then there's a part of me that even defines myself on the ambivalence itself, saying that's who I am. So, how much of that sounds like a self-reinforcing delusion? A lot right? haha. Yeah, part of me sees that too.

[spotlessMind]

Dear SpotlessMind, you write so lucidly and effectively, It's such a pleasure to read your posts,

In response to your general identity inquiry I'm going to drill down onto your OP, third paragraph, third sentence, after the comma mark - and having not already read your previous "heavy and negatively charged" post - I'll respond with the following which I'll frame in a loose context as I don't know you:

Perhaps of the strongest definers of identity is with whom one identifies with, and the result of which, which is how one identifies as. As your seem like such an inquisitive person; I'll suggest that in your search for understanding that you could direct your search as to why a person would wish to identify as another in the first instance. As a further "map" to exploring this territory; You could try to pin down what could be gained emotionally by being this other.

It sounds very simple but the result of my search was not found printed in a book such "my gender workbook". However, I learned what I needed anyway, in tears, the obvious truth, a revelation, found when my life was explained to me by somebody else.

I think you're onto something there. That's quite thoughtful. I'm seriously taking notes from this thread for myself and your suggestion is one of them! I'll definitely bring that up to a professional if I do end up seeking that sort of help (which is quite likely). Maybe they'll beat me to it haha.

Thanks for the compliment too! ;)

[sometimes_miss]

So you are saying you DON'T separate your male and female sides, yes? And you rationalize this with rhetoric? Sorry if that sounds sarcastic, but I'm actually being serious! =)
Me neither. I'm always 'me', too. I may be me racing a motorcycle, or me wearing a pretty dress reading Glamour. I don't create a different persona in order to distance my behavior 'as a girl' from who I feel I 'really' am like a lot of us do; I think many people do that because they have feelings they're uncomfortable with, so they put them in the 'female personality' box for use only when they can blame putting those behaviors on display, as if they were acting a part in some fictional play. The rest of the time, they just suppress those thoughts and desires. We're men. We're very good at compartmentalizing our lives.
You DID want us to be totally honest about this, right??

[spotlessMind]

I can't say I agree with your theory sometimes_miss, but it's interesting to hear about the way you see it =)

It's probably just a matter of perspective!

[docrobbysherry]

I am CONSUMED with thots of, and for, Sherry! Yet, I have no idea who she is, where she came from, or how long she'll stay with me!