I am in the closet. Please be kind, respect my decision, and spare me the insults.

[Anne2345]

Until joining this forum earlier this year, I had not knowingly communicated with another crossdresser, or attempted to do so. I am in my early 40s, and have been a crossdresser my entire life. Although I have a wonderful and accepting wife, I came to the realization that something was missing in my life – discussion with and friendship from other crossdressers. So I took the plunge, and not without some small measure of unfounded consternation, joined the forum.

Upon joining, I was welcomed with warm, loving, and open arms, for which I am quite grateful. It was amazing. I could not believe such a place as this existed. As a result of participating on this forum, and considering other members' thoughts and ideas, I have learned so much about myself, and considered aspects of crossdressing that had not previously occurred to me. This forum has provided me with an incredible experience, and has opened my mind to a deeper understanding and appreciation of not only myself, but crossdressing in general.

But what is the true purpose of this forum? On a post I submitted recently (“My Closet is My Blessed Sanctuary. Is Yours?”), I wrote about my thoughts and opinions on residing in the closet, and that, for me, it is a positive experience. In response to my post, a fellow member posted the following:


Loserville has honored citizens...

I'm not surprised that so many people "here" support the delusions celebrated in the original post.
Meh.
The question asked was, "What about my view of the closet"?
It's a box, a windowless place with a door, dark most of the time...
You want to live there, and worship the voices in your head, while fingering your frills go ahead.
"Society" is you too, and "we" can get along with a minority of members not participating.
If you were to come out and participate, society would change - in ways you'd like.
But, you won't make the effort, which leaves others to do "the work" for you - as the OP notes - and "loves" us for.
Spare me your poetry and prose about "your" useless to the rest of us closet.
Pity some of you private "PMer's" won't do more than the OP...
What a waste of numbers.

Although I can appreciate the frustration this member must feel, and her desire for acceptance from society, I am quite disheartened and confused by the message, and the negative manner in which it was conveyed.

Personally, I did not join this forum to be shamed by other crossdressers that do not respect my desire and need to remain in the closet. I did not join this forum to be made to feel inferior to crossdressers that decide to go public, and to be told I lack courage. I most definitely did not join this forum to be told by another crossdresser that I am a resident of “Loserville.”

Although true the above-referenced post is a rather extreme example of an offensive, arrogant, and intolerant post, I have noticed that there are other members that hold and express similar views within other threads. Obviously, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and has a right to express their opinion. Open debate and discussion provides the cornerstone of freedom, and it is to be cherished, honored, and exercised without fear of oppression and reprisal. And if it is not already quite evident by my other posts, I thoroughly enjoy debate and discussion as much as the next girl. There is much to be learned through the consideration of different and/or opposing viewpoints, and the mental exercise of such consideration can be quite rewarding.

However, in my opinion, ranting about closeted crossdressers that refuse to go public, dismissing such crossdressers’ privacy without even the slightest consideration for the crossdressers’ circumstances, and utilizing negative bullying tactics designed to shame does not constitute healthy or productive debate and discussion in my book.

The irony of it all is that this sub-group of crossdressers believe strongly in the most noblest of pursuits - freedom of self-expression and freedom from persecution. But what about my freedom to remain in the closet? Is my freedom to choose my own path any less important or less relevant than someone who chooses a different path? If the message is that society will accept us if we all come out together in numbers, how can we possibly expect society to be civil to and understanding of us when we cannot even be civil to and understanding of members within our own ranks?

Regardless, I am in the closet, and that is where I shall remain. Call me a citizen of “Loserville” all you want. I will not change my mind. I have worked hard for my education and career. I have a family. I have a mortgage, car payments, and a plethora of other bills to pay. When I lose my job as a result of coming out, who is going to pay my bills? Who is going to feed my family? When my child goes to school, who is going to take care of her, and protect her from the playground bullies that will discriminate against her for the mere reason that her father is a crossdresser? What about the consequences to my wife? She is not a crossdresser, but she married one. I could go on and on and on, but I am sure you get the point. But even beyond this, what about the simple freedom to remain silent about my crossdressing for no other reason than I believe it is no one else’s business, and I choose not to share?

So what exactly is the purpose of this forum? Is it a support group forum? Is it an activist forum? Is it a combination of the two?

Although I appreciate, respect, and support issues worthy of activism as much as the next girl (and crossdressing is most certainly a worthy cause, and I have heaped high praise on such girls in the past, and will continue to do so in the future), I simply cannot sacrifice everything I have worked for simply because an intolerant and unforgiving crossdresser has called me inferior, weak, and a loser.

As to the question I have asked, I believe this forum is a support group forum. I have met many wonderful girls here, and have made some fantastic friends. I look forward to meeting more of you in the future, developing further my friendships, and forging more. If the crossdressers’ cause of freedom and acceptance by society is also somehow furthered by certain members of this forum, or the forum itself, then that is fantastic! In this regard, I have absolutely no doubt that this forum has opened many curious eyes throughout its existence, both crossdressers and non-crossdressers alike. I cannot help but conclude and believe that this forum has had a tremendous, positive impact on the cause of the crossdresser, and will continue to do so.

But to those members within the forum that disagree with other members’ viewpoints, I simply ask that you be respectful and civil with your discourse. In my opinion, this forum is quite special. I know I am not alone in this sentiment. I do not come here to be offended and insulted. I come here to learn, share, participate, offer support, and to make friends. I sincerely hope that is not too much to ask for.

Speaking of friendship and civil discourse, my friend Frederique recently submitted a post entitled “Discussion – a topic worthy of discussion?” For those of you that feel a need to put done and insult closeted crossdressers, or crossdressers of any kind, for that matter, I suggest you read her post. I previously mentioned that I have learned much since joining this forum. Perhaps, just maybe, you can learn something, too.

[Kate Simmons]

Sounds good to me Anne. How can we expect the respect of society if we cannot respect each other? We are who we are, nothing more or less. I suppose many will say I'm a loser because for the most part I don't CD any more. It served it's purpose in my life to help me get in touch with myself and my feelings. Does that mean I'm a "traitor" for the "cause" ? Doubtful! I still have many CD friends here which is one reason I hang out even if I don't do it myself. We are all who we are for a reason and in my book, it's the person who is valued regardless of chosen appearance. That is what it is really all about.:)

[Sophie86]

Well put, Anne. I can't add anything to what you've already said except a big thumbs up. :thumbsup:

[donnatracey]

Anne, thank you so much for posting - very well said! Thank you......:thumbsup:

[RADER]

Hi Anne:
I am with you in the closet, In fact, I built a addition to the house so I would have a bigger closet to Rome around
in. My wife accepts my dressing; but to leave the house is out of the question. I would never pass in a million
years; I am built like a Lumber Jack, (6' 3" and 300 lbs) With huge hands, arms, and the curse of a size 14 shoe.
So I an happy in the closet.
Ont thing from being on this forum, is I now have the courage to under dress a lot more often than before joining.
I wear Panties 24-7, Bra about 75% of the time, Fem Jeans most of the time. 2 years ago, I would never even
consider doing such a thing.
I have about 10 dresses, and a number of skirts that I wear around the house when I can, and the wife approves.
So you are not alone in the closet, and for the forum, well I am very glad to find and be a part of this great place.
Rader

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Personally, I did not join this forum to be shamed by other crossdressers that do not respect my desire and need to remain in the closet. I did not join this forum to be made to feel inferior to crossdressers that decide to go public, and to be told I lack courage. I most definitely did not join this forum to be told by another crossdresser that I am a resident of “Loserville.”

I would say it differently than the person you referred to. I tend to say, closets are for clothes, not for people. There are some who would say that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. But I'll say more about that a bit later.


However, in my opinion, ranting about closeted crossdressers that refuse to go public, dismissing such crossdressers’ privacy without even the slightest consideration for the crossdressers’ circumstances, and utilizing negative bullying tactics designed to shame does not constitute healthy or productive debate and discussion in my book.

Perhaps, but some crossdressers fear of what "might" happen if they leave the safety of the closet are unfounded. Then again, one such as myself shouldn't be excessively pushy on the matter.


Regardless, I am in the closet, and that is where I shall remain. Call me a citizen of “Loserville” all you want. I will not change my mind. I have worked hard for my education and career. I have a family. I have a mortgage, car payments, and a plethora of other bills to pay. When I lose my job as a result of coming out, who is going to pay my bills? Who is going to feed my family?

Who says you would lose your job as a result of coming out? There are places that have employment protections for transgendered people, you know. So if you lived in such a place and didn't have to worry, would you come out? If you didn't live in such a place, why not work to get such legislation in place. Wouldn't that be a good thing? You wouldn't even have to come out, to support such things. If more places had such things then coming out would be less worrisome, correct?


When my child goes to school, who is going to take care of her, and protect her from the playground bullies that will discriminate against her for the mere reason that her father is a crossdresser?

who says she would be bullied? You know, there are places where bullying of any kind isn't tolerated. When I was young I never saw anyone bullied because of their parents, it was always something about the kid themselves.


So what exactly is the purpose of this forum? Is it a support group forum? Is it an activist forum? Is it a combination of the two?

A little bit of this, a little bit of that.


I simply cannot sacrifice everything I have worked for simply because an intolerant and unforgiving crossdresser has called me inferior, weak, and a loser.

Who says you would have to sacrifice anything? That's fear talking. Some of it may be reasonable, but some of it isn't.


I previously mentioned that I have learned much since joining this forum. Perhaps, just maybe, you can learn something, too.

Hmmph, learn something new...here? Perhaps, but not too much likely for me. I'm a veteran of Trans Usenet....what you see here now I saw 12 years ago. Including massive numbers of "what color are your pnaties" and "pnatyhose vs stockings" threads.

It was on USENET that someone gave me a kick in the pants to get out of the closet (in certain ways) similar to what was given you. In fact, I wouldn't have been there or here without an individual act of opening up to my immediate family, and both of those were very good things.

Veronica

[Karren H]

I disagree with a lot of people but I don't attack them over it (though sometimes my humor doesn't come across)... And I don't hate them (though you fem jeans wearers are on the hairy edge!!).. Not everyone is the same and if this is just a mutual admiration society then I'm moving on... Maybe I've developed a thick skin being out there for so long but I don't take anything that people say to me or about me to heart. They have their opinion and I have mine. People come here for different reasons and take away what they want to take... For me its friendship which translates over to other social sites and entertainment value... Its fun... So like the real world, people will be people and you have to expect the occasional A-hole to pop up and say bad things. I do.. And it doesn't get under my skin.. Much. Any more. Lol.

[Persephone]

Hi Anne,

I did not get a chance to read your original post nor the insulting comment that was made.

I am likely to be one of the most "out and about" crossdressers around and I completely respect and endorse your decision to live your life in a way in which you are most comfortable.

My life, no matter how much I love it, does come with some costs. It isn't always a fairy tale out here and there aren't always happy endings. No-one should be pushed or challenged into being "out." Making it seem like a contest or a dare is wrong. Terribly wrong, and it could have very negative consequences for some.

The person who apparently posted her opinion of "Loserville" appears to be someone who believes in mass movements and demands for "social change." In advocating for "the group" she is likely to be perfectly willing to sacrifice the individual. That's fine for those who hold such beliefs, so long as those they sacrifice do so of their own free will. Personally, I have no interest in being a part of any such "movement," let alone being part of its cannon fodder.

Please use this forum as a place to learn, to teach, and to enjoy and never allow anyone to make you feel "wrong" about your choices. Do the things that allow you to love and enjoy your life and be the Goddess of your own path.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[kimdl93]

I don't think anyone needs to feel that they are obliged to live thier life on someone else's terms, and I'm sorry if some people in this group imply that there's a standard that others must follow. If I must be categorized, I'd fall in the "partially out" sector, because I am out to wife, a few relatives, and a couple of friends, and I'm en femme most of the time, although not in public. These are my choices, and work in my situation.

[clairebostock]

Hi Anne
like so meny here i am with you, as i have said before it is no shame that you are in the "closet", so what !!
now i have been out in the big bad world dressed, but i won't make anyone else do it if they don't want to. i have coffee mornings at my home for those "girls" who cant or don't want to go out. and enjoy dressing and chatting making new friend's. the girls that come to the coffee morning some are smooth and some not but who care's ? we are all crossdressers why do some out their have to bitch about others who do what they want to do ??
just my two penny's worth.

good luck to you and your family . Claire

[Carla]

I am of the opinion that the vast majority of the members of this forum ARE indeed in the closet. Some are trying to get out and some are not. To each her own. I am out with my wife, and a handful of crossdressers I have met socially at events, but that is it. It is not my goal to go much further. I like my closet!!!! It's where my clothes are for Pete's sake!! And I don't need anyone "working on my behalf" to make society accepting of crossdressers.

For those out of the closet, if that is what you want then good for you. For myself, and most otheres here. We will step out or not, based on our own personal situations.

KUDOS on your original post and this one.

[Amanda22]

The bullying and judgment you see on this forum is a by-product of having humans for members. This happens everywhere, though it isn't requisite. No, it is not helpful. Obviously, if anyone wants to stay in the closet, that's their decision and should be respected. Although I say "obviously", evidence on this forum shows that sentiment isn't universal.

Even if you're totally out of the closet, you can still be made to feel inferior by others on this forum. Example: a few months ago I asked if anyone felt a sort of "naughty thrill" when going out dressed en femme. I didn't mean anything sexual, but meant something along the lines of doing something so utterly unconventional that it was a rush. I got several holier-than-thou responses along the lines of "I'm not doing this for thrills; it's who I am!" Well, duh, it's who we all are. Geez. It made me angry that a very few took advantage of my post to boost themselves.

Anyhow, being a CDer is a lot easier if you can desensitize yourself to others' reactions. If you ever decide to venture out of the closet, believe me, you'll need to exercise the ol' water-off-a-duck's back skills. Just last Sunday afternoon, I was in Publix shopping and a mother and daughter were right behind me in line at the checkout. The mother whispered something to her daughter, and her daughter kept looking at me laughing. Initially, I was angry because of their disrespect. Then I thought, "Who would I rather be? Myself who is living authentically and very courageously to grocery shop in skirt, blouse, etc., or a blatantly disrespecting fool who wears dirty sweatpants and flip flops in public?"

Bottom line, idiots are all around us. It's more productive to focus on our reactions to them than to try to change them.

[Stacy L]

I would say it differently than the person you referred to. I tend to say, closets are for clothes, not for people. There are some who would say that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. But I'll say more about that a bit later.



Perhaps, but some crossdressers fear of what "might" happen if they leave the safety of the closet are unfounded. Then again, one such as myself shouldn't be excessively pushy on the matter.



Who says you would lose your job as a result of coming out? There are places that have employment protections for transgendered people, you know. So if you lived in such a place and didn't have to worry, would you come out? If you didn't live in such a place, why not work to get such legislation in place. Wouldn't that be a good thing? You wouldn't even have to come out, to support such things. If more places had such things then coming out would be less worrisome, correct?



who says she would be bullied? You know, there are places where bullying of any kind isn't tolerated. When I was young I never saw anyone bullied because of their parents, it was always something about the kid themselves.



A little bit of this, a little bit of that.



Who says you would have to sacrifice anything? That's fear talking. Some of it may be reasonable, but some of it isn't.



Hmmph, learn something new...here? Perhaps, but not too much likely for me. I'm a veteran of Trans Usenet....what you see here now I saw 12 years ago. Including massive numbers of "what color are your pnaties" and "pnatyhose vs stockings" threads.

It was on USENET that someone gave me a kick in the pants to get out of the closet (in certain ways) similar to what was given you. In fact, I wouldn't have been there or here without an individual act of opening up to my immediate family, and both of those were very good things.

Veronica

Veronica, how does your wife feel about you being so open?



.

[NicoleScott]

ANNE, wasn't it nice of VeronicaMoonlit to give you yet another example of those who are intolerant of other cd's wishing to stay in the closet? She quoted you seven times, with a response for each, usually with a counter to your reasons for staying closeted. For example: "Who says you woud lose your job as a result of coming out?" You do, Anne! Just because others have a job situation tolerant of the transgendered doesn't mean that all do. I trust your judgement of your own situation, and your assessment that you could lose your job if you came out. I know I would lose mine. My boss is strongly homophobic, and believes that crossdressers are all gay, so if I know what's good for me, I'll stay in the closet. It is naive to think that a boss can't get rid of anyone he doesn't want working for him. If not for crossdressing, he'll find another reason. Yes, some crossdressers fear what "might" happen, and it's not worth the risk, so we're staying put - in the closet.
As for the "if you're not part of of the solution, you're part of the problem" comment. What's the problem, general public's acceptance of crossdressers? What's the solution? Sacrificing yourself, your security, your job and income, etc., so that other crossdressers get that acceptance some day (year, decade..) If others want to come out, do it. But back off those of us who wish to stay in the closet and not be a martyr for that cause.
Having said all that, Anne, we need to realize that there are going to be people who think their way is the only way. We need to grow a thicker skin, because those types will not go away.

[Eryn]

This forum is many things to many people, ranging from a focus for activism to simply being a safe place to discuss our common interest. Forcing one's own image of CDing onto another is wrong and people who do such things are best ignored.

Encouragement is a good thing. If someone says "I'd like to go out" then it is quite proper to encourage them and to celebrate with them their experiences. If someone says that they are happily closeted then it is equally improper to belittle them for that decision.

Any time you post in a public forum you run the risk of a response from someone who either doesn't understand or simply doesn't care what you are saying. Don't let them get you down. Ignore them and concentrate on the positive.

Hugs, Eryn

[Jannette H]

Anne,
I started out there and I believe many others did also. Don't let others get you down.

[Joanagreenleaf]

Newsflash!

You are no longer in your closet.

Congratulations.

No need to thank me - but it's OK if you do.

[kendra_gurl]

Veronica's comments are typical of the "trans"community here on this site. I have absolutely nothing against the "trans" community but I do not have very much in common with them. I don't think most "crossdressers" relate well either with those "trans" members either. Their mission is not to enjoy playing dress up in private or public but to try and get the general public to accept that it is their right to dress however they want. I do not disagree with that but its not why I dress nor is it very important to me.
While my wife and I are comfortable in going out in public we still only do so in places where friends and family will never see us and that is how we want to keep it. As you said that is our right and no one has the right to try to change that.

I wish the powers that be here would see the need for a split in the Male to Female Crossdressers form and create a separate form for Transgendered members just like the one for Transsexuals.

I strongly believe the girls who consider themselves transgendered are a small minority of the Male to Female Crossdressers group.

[Nigella]

...

I wish the powers that be here would see the need for a split in the Male to Female Crossdressers form and create a separate form for Transgendered members just like the one for Transsexuals.


With the exception of the GGs everyone on this forum is transgendered.

[TGMarla]

I'm with Anne on this one, just like I was before. And I was shocked to read the response she got calling her a resident of "Loserville". So uncalled for! Too often I have seen girls on this site get browbeaten into going out into the great big world, long before they're really ready to, only to experience something bad that they weren't expecting. We all live under different circumstances, and if we have any respect for those circumstances, we need to recognize those when we make decisions for ourselves like when or when not to expose ourselves as crossdressers to the rest of society. There is no hierarchy to crossdressing. Transgendered people, or transexuals, are not a higher being than "mere" crossdressers. Many of us are content to just stay put and enjoy our time to ourselves. This is not some great crusade for everyone in this community. If you want to be some transgendered warrior, then have at it. But not everyone is a militant crossdresser, and the great crusade is not for everyone.

I find Anne's posts to be pleasant and uplifting. I am glad she's a member here. Perhaps some of the militant posters here could learn a little something about civility from her.

Anne, you rock. Don't let anyone tell you differently. Don't let the haters bring you down. They have issues, and they're just trying to hand them off on you.

[kendra_gurl]

With the exception of the GGs everyone on this forum is transgendered.

And just how do you come up with that ridiculous argument?
I do not consider myself transgendered at all just because I enjoy to crossdress on occasion. Just as when A GG enjoys doing anything more commonly defined as male it does not make them transgendered.

I mentioned going out in the back yard practicing my golf swing in my post but that does not necessarly mean I am a Golfer or even play the game

[Crissy Kay]

Well said Anne!!! I do agree with you. As a closet girl myself, I know how you feel. Its a choice I made, and I remain happy with it. I enjoy reading about other cds who do go out, and wish them well.

[VioletJourney]

Nothing wrong with staying in the closet, but you understand if we encourage someone to come out, right? It's part of the development of our crossdressing.

And just how do you come up with that ridiculous argument?
I do not consider myself transgendered at all just because I enjoy to crossdress on occasion. Just as when A GG enjoys doing anything more commonly defined as male it does not make them transgendered.


trans=to go beyond
gender=social expectations associated with sex
Therefore, since we go beyond social expectations, we are all transgendered.

[Amanda22]

And just how do you come up with that ridiculous argument?
I do not consider myself transgendered at all just because I enjoy to crossdress on occasion. Just as when A GG enjoys doing anything more commonly defined as male it does not make them transgendered.

I mentioned going out in the back yard practicing my golf swing in my post but that does not necessarly mean I am a Golfer or even play the game

There are many threads for the label discussion. Let's stay on topic.

[Cynthia Anne]

Anne sweetie! I agree everyone is entitled to there own opinion! It has been said, "opinions are like a--holes! Everybody's got one! But when you can"t tell the differant by the smell, you must consider that person is showing theirs! (and I don't mean there opinion)! I think what you are saying here was well thought out and came from the heart! For this I thank you! For those that SMELL, my signature is what I have to offer you! Hugs!

[kendra_gurl]

There are many threads for the label discussion. Let's stay on topic.

Was never my intention to go off topic but I do think the bashing Anne received and talked about in her OP and the subsequent post from Veronica is exactly what the majority of negativity instead of support some here reply with is not helpful And it starts from the differences in where each individual is on the journey from being a male who sceretly wears one item of female clothing to those who are on HRT and scheduled SRS surgery.

WE ARE ALL NOT THE SAME SO STOP TRYING TO MAKE EVERYONE ELSE WALK A MILE IN YOUR SHOES

( not shouting just wanted to make a pont)

[Nikki A.]

There are many good points made here and I believe that if you are comfortable in the closet and have no desire to venture beyond, that is your right and priveledge. I felt that way too for many years also. When and if you want to venture out more I as many others here wii be here to support you, but only when YOU are ready.
As far as the others that put you down, that is their problem and don't let them bother or upset you. In every group there are extremists and on the other hand those that are on the other end of the spectrum.
Enjoy your journey

[Eryn]

With the exception of the GGs everyone on this forum is transgendered.

'Cmon, there has to be at least a couple MAB, non-TG, gentlemen with us supporting their FTMs!

[sterling12]

Always try to remember that this Forum is about People expressing their opinions. Otherwise it would look a lot like some well known Conservative Talk Show where all we have is Clones agreeing with The Self-Proclaimed Guru of Conservative Thought.

If you stick around, you will get lots and lots of people not agreeing with you. (Just as some will disagree with me) But, with A Forum like this you also achieve "Discourse." As you already stated, we learn a lot from listening to The Ideas of others.

That Poetry, (in my opinion) was pretty mild. If you choose to take on a controversial subject like: "Why it's good for me to stay in The Closet," I would be shocked if you didn't get a lot of disagreement.

I have been in charge of CD Groups, worked on many CD and TG Projects in and around my area. One thing I can tell you for absolute fact! "If your looking for consensus among The Transgendered.....please don't hold your breath while your waiting." Getting agreement on Anything within our Community is just about like Herding Cats. It ain't gonna work."

Please don't be offended, most of the time around here it's pretty civil. That, is light-years better than most of the other stuff out there that passes for The Term "Forum."

Peace and Love, Joanie

[carhill2mn]

May I suggest that no matter where you are or what the subject matter is, there will be some who only see things from their point of view. There is nothing to be gained by reacting to such people. All one can do is politely overlook their comments and continue to try to enhance your own life and experiences.

[suchacutie]

Hmmm, isn't it interesting that Anne is told that she is silly for worrying about the bullying of her children, but yet what can you call the negative comments made to her if not bullying!. Fascinating.

And may I point out that not venturing out in public en femme does not mean that one cannot help the cause of transgendered rights in other ways. In fact, I could argue that by defending transgendered rights when presenting as a male can have a tremendous impact on our fellow human beings. Furthremore, telling someone how they should live there lives has serious negative connotations in any free society.

Should we support those who wish to venture into the larger world en femme...of course! They need our support and I think we do a good job of supporting them. Those who further our broader transgenderism in other ways need to be supported and praised as well. As I pointed out in the previous thread, we all live in some sort of closet on some issues...it would be imprudent/unwise/rude/etc not to do so.

This forum is for informational support. I, for one, am always incredibly keen to read all the details of anyone's journey into the larger world. There are always little tidbits there that help my presentation and expectations en femme. Those in the closet often tell about interpersonal relationship issues that are just as useful and interesting.

We all help and together we can all make a difference.

Tina

[TxKimberly]

I wouldn't let that persons reply get to you too much. It's a simple fact of life that with all the thousands of people roaming this forum, ANYTHING you say WILL piss someone somewhere off. You could say that the sky is blue, and sure as hell someone would get offended and angry about it. Years ago I made a post that I had been channel surfing and paused on a spanish speaking channel in complete awe of the gorgeous women wearing the killer dresses and shoes. Would you believe that someone started yelling at me and demanding that I explain my comments?!
You just learn to ignore that sort of thing and continue on about your business.

[Anne2345]

Nothing wrong with staying in the closet, but you understand if we encourage someone to come out, right? It's part of the development of our crossdressing.

Hi Violet! You joined the forum around the same time I did. I have seen you around the forum in many threads. You participate regularly and frequently, and add value to the forum.

From the posts I have seen from you, I have not seen you respond in a negative and insulting manner. I have no problem if you put forth your arguments for crossdressers coming out of the closet. None at all. It is your perspective that you are offering to the forum, in the same way I am offering my perspective.

And as I said in my post - I am all for debate and discussion. It is when members start mud slinging and calling names, and take an extreme position with total disregard for other viable and legitimate opinions and perspectives that the system breaks down, and diminishes the otherwise wonderful forum that this is.

I am merely asking members to remain civil and respectful to each other, and leave such negative, hurtful terms such as "loserville" out of the equation. After all, it is disingenous for such a member to say come out into the open, the water is warm, it is great, but if you do not, I am going to shame you, call you names, and trivialize your existence. Again, if we cannot learn to accept ourselves, and the differences we may have as crossdressers, how can we possibly expect the outside world to accept us? It is a self-defeating argument, which dooms the legitimacy of the argument from the onset.

As to your opinions and perspective, keep posting, girl, and have at it! :)

[SusanMarie]

Anne2345...
It's your closet..
do what you want...
enjoy the support of this forum...
ignore the rest...

[DanyaKay]

Well first off, I will dress where, when and how I want. No one here can say anything to make me do other wise. If I went down that path they'd be telling me what style dress to wear. Not gonna happen.

Second,I also paid for my education and own my own business. It has been extremely rewarding and I'm looking at total retirement in 5 yrs, but could probably do it now if I desired. My line of work is definitely a man's world, but my office and paperwork is time for some serious winding down and chilling out. Yeah, I would lose tons of $$$ if it were to be known.

Next, outside of my office it's strictly greasy hands from working on Jeeps, smelling hands from cleaning fish, and damn good cigars and R&R and ginger ale.

I'm not an activist. I have no ax to grind, except against those who will not work to support America. I can't worry about other peeps issues, I have enough of my own to care of. Peace out girl and I'm in your corner of the closet.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Well first off, I will dress where, when and how I want. No one here can say anything to make me do other wise. If I went down that path they'd be telling me what style dress to wear. Not gonna happen.

How does your SO deal with your take on doing what you want when you want, if you have a SO?

[Nicole Erin]

Anne, every so often we get a total 'tard on the forum. Seems you had the fortune of running into one.
Worry not though, people like that don't last around here. I have seen a few of them come and go.

After you been here a while, people kind of back off cause like I been here 3.5 years and on the seldom case I get razzed by someone other than a mod (you kind of have to ignore their bait, and sometimes they WILL try to bait you to get yourself banned) but if it is just some normal member, tell them where to cram it.

Now about the closet - yeah it can be cramped, but for me, while I am "out" and all that, i realize that not everyone is in a situation where they can just "come out". I mean like right now I am not working but if I had some job where I could NOT be out then I would not sacrafice my income just to be "out". I know being "out" is fine for 20 year olds who are living at home, don't have family or jobs to worry about, etc, but yeah it bites cause people like judge.

So for those of us who are "out" and have paid some prices for that, yes we do have to put up with a lot more crap and yes it might help our cause but it also benefits the respective TG as they can be themselves.

[Asche]

Nothing wrong with staying in the closet, but you understand if we encourage someone to come out, right? It's part of the development of our crossdressing.
It may be part of the development of your crossdressing.

But who is to say that that everyone will or should develop in the same way or in the same direction? Who is to say that Anne2345's crossdressing (which is only one aspect of her, and perhaps not the most important one) needs to "develop" at all? Maybe her development as a person is in other areas. If diversity is a Good Thing in the biosphere, why is it not a Good Thing within our species -- or our subculture? Perhaps Anne2345 is by staying in her closet further along on her development path than she would be if she came out. And perhaps doing more for herself, her community, and the universe by doing so.

The only "development" that we can all be certain of is the "development" from infant to corpse, and I'm quite happy to take as many detours and delays from that "development" as possible.

[Frédérique]

But to those members within the forum that disagree with other members’ viewpoints, I simply ask that you be respectful and civil with your discourse. In my opinion, this forum is quite special. I know I am not alone in this sentiment. I do not come here to be offended and insulted. I come here to learn, share, participate, offer support, and to make friends. I sincerely hope that is not too much to ask for.

I read the quoted reply, and it saddened me, to say the least. There are a few black queens of misanthropy in this place of support for all crossdressers, so you need to be conscious of that fact and dismiss the odd negative post for what it is – an anomaly. I don’t understand why anyone would want to deflate someone’s view of oneself in this hideous manner, but I suppose some people come here to do just that, and cause mayhem where it is least appreciated…

I just recently held back from responding to a misanthrope who seems to be on my case, mainly because I speak in sentences with forethought. I’ll think of an excellent retort, and then feel bad about it, chiefly because this is NOT how I want to go about things in a special place like this. It doesn’t help ANYBODY to be negative; in fact I dress to get away from these feelings. At the end of the day, I am ultimately responsible for how I feel, so I supplant any tendency to be negative with positive vibes – it helps to step away, take a deep breath, and realize that there are plenty of people here who feel the same way that you do. I guess what I’m trying to say is, “see the whole picture, and not just the details.” With this in mind, it helps to step back from time to time and let the dark clouds disperse…

It’s not easy to be a MtF crossdresser, and “the closet” is our safe haven. If we hold our personal truths to be self-evident, then we are charged with their ultimate protection – not everyone feels that crossdressing is a special expression, and you need to defend yourself from these clamorous barbs of negativity. Unfortunately, this IS a discussion form, and I have been reminded time and time again that ALL opinions are welcome, even those that seek to injure. I’ll tell you, Anne, whenever I’m perforated by some odiferous member’s sarcastic comments, I just think about certain iconic people on this forum I admire that never get ruffled. I think THEY will tell you that you need to stay the course to your own destiny, and patiently endure the slings and arrows of those who openly dislike anyone who has the courage to enjoy crossdressing. It comes with the territory, even though this human landscape is largely unexplored and uncharted – we are the intrepid pathfinders in an invariably dark world, seeking illumination through our feelings…

Here’s a heartfelt hug for you, my dear sister: :bighug:

[BRANDYJ]

Hi Ann, Let me be counted as one that agrees with your very well written post. First, we have to remember that some here are in fact either TS or at least lean very close to what a transsexual is. I'm like you, a crossdresser. I have no desire to ever live as a woman full time or even present in public like some here do. So like you, I don't have much in common with many TS's or the more "OUT" CD. I am perhaps more like Kendra in some respects. Probably not much different then you in some ways. You will not see me out there trying to change the world's perception of us by looking like a man in a dress. Fore starters I would not pass or as some say, "blend in"... as some lucky few here can. Then we have yet another camp; Those that don't even try to look like a female, but wear women's clothes in public wherever they go. Not this man! Call me chicken, call me closeted, call me whatever you like, but I have to be comfortable being me. I can not stand the ridicule, the humiliation, cruel words or worse that I might be confronted with.

So move over, there is room in the closet for more of us. Even though I do venture out to clubs that accept us and welcome us. But to go to Walmart, the mall or a restaurant is not gonna happen.

True, we are a community but we have all kinds of people here. Some are very nice, fun, understanding, warm and all those good things we hope to find in others. But be warned, just like out in public, we have those that hate, are not friendly, not nice, arrogant, self-centered, selfish, foolish, inconsiderate, hedonist's and worse! The response to your original post that you shared with us is one of those. No, I do not even want to know that person since we share so little in being just human. It really is OK to not like everyone here for whatever personal reasons we have. But for the most part we have a very good bunch of people here. That includes those I may not even agree with.
Like someone else said Anne, don't take it personal. Try to laugh it off and consider the source.

[Marissa]

:censor: All thoughts and comments are locked away in the closet ;)

[Cheryl T]

We all have our personal limits and needs.
If someone is happy to be in the closet then that is their choice. Not everyone has the need to be in public or to be the spokesperson for a group of people.
The same is true for the styles we wear. No one should be ridiculed for their choices, they are after all, their choices. They do not place responsibility on others to "carry the torch" or anything of the sort.
Be who you are and be happy.

[Debglam]

Anne honey,

Others have said it but basically this community, like every other community, is going to have its share of folks that just can't play nicely with others! :sad: Don't let it bother you.

You have a lot of friends here and you do what you need to do for yourself and for your family. No judgment and no questions asked!

:hugs:
Debby

[TGMarla]

I notice the "hater in question" has not come and defended that rather rude and uncalled for post. I'd wager that around 75% or more of all the crossdressers in the world are in the closet about it. It's the safe place, and I don't think one can be blamed one bit for staying there as long as one is comfortable there. We owe nothing to anyone else. There is no bylaw that states that we have to go out and present ourselves to the rest of the world. To those of you who do, more power to you. I'm in awe of some of you. But then there are many of us who simply don't want the neighbors to tell our wives that they saw us leaving in the car the other day all decked out like a woman. Not all of our spouses, nor our friends, are friendly and supportive of our cross-gender activities. We have to deal with that as best we can. If that means we stay in the closet, our own homes, then so be it.

That's the bottom line.

[Sophie86]

Newsflash!

You are no longer in your closet.

Congratulations.

No need to thank me - but it's OK if you do.

You've gotta be kidding.

[Alice Torn]

We seek tolerance. Let it begin here! 99% in the closet here!

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Veronica, how does your wife feel about you being so open?
.

What wife would that be? I'm not married, never been married. You do realize that not everyone here is married? And yes, if I was we would make decisions together...but....I figured it would be a "Good Idea" to not become involved with someone till I had dealt with my issues.


ANNE, wasn't it nice of VeronicaMoonlit to give you yet another example of those who are intolerant of other cd's wishing to stay in the closet?

Let me say again that I am a veteran of USENET, and has been reading about and debating these issues for years.

You call what I said intolerant? That? Didn't you notice all the qualifier words I used, like "some"? Did you not see that I said that while I think "Closets are for clothes, not people" that ones such as I shouldn't be excessively pushy about it, and I'm not. Go read my posting history...go on, I'll wait. Did I not say that I wouldn't have used the language of the person who used the term "Loserville"?


She quoted you seven times, with a response for each, usually with a counter to your reasons for staying closeted.

I always quote a lot, that way one can be certain of exactly what I am referring to.


For example: "Who says you woud lose your job as a result of coming out?" You do, Anne! Just because others have a job situation tolerant of the transgendered doesn't mean that all do. I trust your judgement of your own situation, and your assessment that you could lose your job if you came out.

Perhaps, but is it true judgement or fear talking. It is easy to let fear rule us. For example, I didn't come out to my family for years because of my fears. When I did, one of the things they said was that they were a bit saddened that I did not trust their love for me. I also let fear rule me when I said I'd never go out in public. No really, I actually once said, to Lacey Leigh no less, that I would NEVER go out in public.


I know I would lose mine. My boss is strongly homophobic, and believes that crossdressers are all gay, so if I know what's good for me, I'll stay in the closet.

Fine, I have no problems with that. However, wouldn't it be a good thing to work towards reducing homophobic attitudes wherever you're at? Sure it'll take time, but every little bit helps towards making the lives of the next generation of GLBTQI folk easier.


It is naive to think that a boss can't get rid of anyone he doesn't want working for him. If not for crossdressing, he'll find another reason. Yes, some crossdressers fear what "might" happen, and it's not worth the risk, so we're staying put - in the closet.

Then perhaps one might work on things so that it's not so easy for bosses to do those sort of things. Change the attitudes and the problem becomes fixed. Yes, it takes time, I know. But every little bit helps, right?


As for the "if you're not part of of the solution, you're part of the problem" comment. What's the problem, general public's acceptance of crossdressers? What's the solution? Sacrificing yourself, your security, your job and income, etc., so that other crossdressers get that acceptance some day (year, decade..) If others want to come out, do it. But back off those of us who wish to stay in the closet and not be a martyr for that cause.

You don't have to come out of the closet to support protections for GLTBQI people. I've said that before. You can do little things, even such things as saying "Hey, don't use that sort of language around me, it's offensive"


Veronica's comments are typical of the "trans"community here on this site. I have absolutely nothing against the "trans" community but I do not have very much in common with them. I don't think most "crossdressers" relate well either with those "trans" members either.

Fair enough.


Their mission is not to enjoy playing dress up in private or public but to try and get the general public to accept that it is their right to dress however they want. I do not disagree with that but its not why I dress nor is it very important to me.

That's not exactly the "mission", to me it would be more like accepting transgender identities of varying kinds as valid ones. Including ones of crossdressers who don't identify as transgendered.


While my wife and I are comfortable in going out in public we still only do so in places where friends and family will never see us and that is how we want to keep it. As you said that is our right and no one has the right to try to change that.

But you'll acknowledge that some of us might want to encourage "open-ness" of varying kinds. Note I said encourage, I'm not one for heavy pressure.


I wish the powers that be here would see the need for a split in the Male to Female Crossdressers form and create a separate form for Transgendered members just like the one for Transsexuals.


I strongly believe the girls who consider themselves transgendered are a small minority of the Male to Female Crossdressers group.

That might be the case, but the transgendered crossdressers are more vocal, post more, are more likely to go out in public and more likely to join support groups.


And I was shocked to read the response she got calling her a resident of "Loserville". So uncalled for!

I agree.


Too often I have seen girls on this site get browbeaten into going out into the great big world, long before they're really ready to,

I try not to browbeat, only encourage and but rarely.


This is not some great crusade for everyone in this community. If you want to be some transgendered warrior, then have at it. But not everyone is a militant crossdresser, and the great crusade is not for everyone.

True, but the "crusade" as you put it, does benefit everyone (I personally wouldn't use the words "crusade" or "militant"). And anything we can do to help...even small things we as a group could do without evening have to come out...is a good thing.




That Poetry, (in my opinion) was pretty mild. If you choose to take on a controversial subject like: "Why it's good for me to stay in The Closet," I would be shocked if you didn't get a lot of disagreement.

Exactly.


I have been in charge of CD Groups, worked on many CD and TG Projects in and around my area. One thing I can tell you for absolute fact! "If your looking for consensus among The Transgendered.....please don't hold your breath while your waiting." Getting agreement on Anything within our Community is just about like Herding Cats. It ain't gonna work."

It is like herding cats.



Hmmm, isn't it interesting that Anne is told that she is silly for worrying about the bullying of her children, but yet what can you call the negative comments made to her if not bullying!. Fascinating.

Harsh criticism edging into the nasty side with the "loserville" reference, yes. Bullying...well, I don't think so.


And may I point out that not venturing out in public en femme does not mean that one cannot help the cause of transgendered rights in other ways. In fact, I could argue that by defending transgendered rights when presenting as a male can have a tremendous impact on our fellow human beings.

Oh, I agree. The problem is that a lot of closeted folks DON'T do that, because if they did, things would be even better.


Should we support those who wish to venture into the larger world en femme...of course! They need our support and I think we do a good job of supporting them. Those who further our broader transgenderism in other ways need to be supported and praised as well. As I pointed out in the previous thread, we all live in some sort of closet on some issues...it would be imprudent/unwise/rude/etc not to do so.

Thank you.




We all help and together we can all make a difference.

Tina

That's what I'm referring to.


First, we have to remember that some here are in fact either TS or at least lean very close to what a transsexual is.

That is also a fair point.


Fore starters I would not pass or as some say, "blend in"... as some lucky few here can. Then we have yet another camp; Those that don't even try to look like a female, but wear women's clothes in public wherever they go. Not this man! Call me chicken, call me closeted, call me whatever you like, but I have to be comfortable being me. I can not stand the ridicule, the humiliation, cruel words or worse that I might be confronted with.

Let me say this. I don't pass. But I have never received humiliation and ridicule when out in public. Now I bet people have whispered to each other behind my back...but that's okay, but openly saying cruel things....most people simply aren't willing to do that.


But to go to Walmart, the mall or a restaurant is not gonna happen.

That's what I said and thought...many years ago....I was wrong. Never say never. :-)

Veronica

[Rianna Humble]

Hi Anne, thank you for a very well written and deeply thought-out plea for more tolerance. If I had have read the reply that you quote from your other thread, I would have used the exclamation mark icon atthe bottom left of the post to report it as being deliberately insulting.

Each member of these forums needs to be free to find their own comfort level, but there is nothing wrong with encouraging people if it is done in a manner that is respectful of those who do not wish to be encouraged. To give an example from my work life, there are another girl in my office who has never worn earrings. I talked to her about the feel of the earrings, how pretty I think she would look with such and such a style of earring, but she told me she has a morbid fear of getting an infection if she has her ears pierced. Although I can talk to her about the standards of hygene etc, she would need to go way beyond her comfort level to ever get the piercing. I respect her right to feel that way, and she respects the fact that I have tried to encourage her not bully her.

I agree with the poster who said that encouragement is part of the process of our development, she did not say as some seem to have misinterpreted that "coming out" is part of our development. Someone who has never experienced the luxury of a pedicure can be encouraged by another about how wonderful it feels, If that person then goes on to experience it for themselves, then the encouragement has led to development.

I may think that some of the fears expressed are unfounded, but only the person expressing those fears knows exactly what their own life is like. All we can do to encourage that person is to relate our own experience - but that is just what it is our own and may not relate to the other person's circumstances.

I cannot agree with the posters who say that they are free do what they like and to He** with anyone else. I have a freedom to make a fist and to swing it if I so wish, but that freedom stops where another person's body begins.

To the best of my knowledge these forums exist as a safe place for cross-dressers, their friends and loved ones to interact and to give and receive support. Sometimes that support is best given by challenging what the other person is saying, but to come back to the point of your original post it should be done politely and with respect.

[Samanthascloset]

Anyone notice that the person Anne is refering to doesnt even post a pic. At least most of us in the closet can do that.

[Jeannie]

Anne sometimes misery loves company. I am in the closet to everyone but my sweet and wonderful wife. Everyone else that doesn't understand can kiss it.

[Janine cd]

Anne, I've been in the closet for 60 years and have never been ashamed about it. I was a teacher for more than 35 years and would have suffered the loss of my employment as well as my family's humiliation if it ever become public that I was a crossdresser. Don't let any one make you believe that you aren't living a good life.

[Kathi Lake]

You know, even as 'out' as I am, I still consider myself closeted - most likely because those I'm out to are strangers. Sure, I have a few members of my family, and a few friends, but for the most part no one in my 'inner circle' of friends, family, church, etc. know me as anything but a boring, skinny, slightly-effeminate guy. I'm OK with that. Anne, you should be too - no matter what some members might say.

Kathi

[natasha]

Anne,

In the closet myself, a choice I make. Not the one I want but it is what is best for me to be able to continue to pay the mortgage, send my kids to college etc.... I too have been chastised by others that I dont "come out" (actually not on this forum), I respect thier feeling but I have to do what is right is for my situation. Should I become financially well off or be able to retire any time soon,......................then things may change. Best of luck to you. I guess if my closet has no windows and is dark at least I can paint it pink!!!

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

I agree, I will open the door when I am prepared to and not when someone tries to open it for me.

[Konfused]

Just because you want to keep some things private does not mean you are in the closet. To me, being in the closet is when you are not honest with yourself about how you feel more so than others. I'm not going to tell strangers about my health, finances, or sexual encounters, so why should I feel obligated to let everyone know about my gender (non)conformity? I will tell the people I want to tell, for reasons that are up to me to decide. Everyone who should know will know (ex: future girlfriends). My family would not understand, so it is easier to not tell them, and I am totally ok with that decision. My friends would probably, for the most part, not understand, and again I am ok with not telling them. They are not entitled to know. Some people are, though, and those are the people I will tell. And I'm totally ok with that lifestyle. I shouldn't have to stick my neck out just because someone else wants me to join their social movement because it is their motive to be out there to everyone. That's their prerogative; not mine.

[Mister Ed]

... Yes, some crossdressers fear what "might" happen, and it's not worth the risk, so we're staying put - in the closet...

Exactly right Nicole.

Anne,
Very well put opinion and rebuttal, not everyone's circumstances allow for such a free and happy life to be anything more than closeted.

I think these "Browbeaters" also forget about the wider world where coming out could even possibly get you killed. What do you do then? Try and change society by being a Martyr? If some of these places don't respect women, what do you think will happen to anyone outside the cultural norm?

[GG Kathy]

Anne I think that was an extremely well written post. The only one who has to be happy with your decisions is you. Do what makes you happy, be that in or out of the closet.

[Stephanie47]

Anne, I totally agree with you! I am NOT a closeted cross dresser. I am an in-home cross dresser. Small point. I do not live in a closet and my wardrobe is kept in xerox boxes. You are totally correct, as many others have agreed, that venturing out into the world may not be as rewarding as some make it out to be. I have lived my life viewing whatever choices I make are subject to a cost benefit analysis. As far as I know the only person who knows of my cross dressing is my wife. She is NOT accepting. I wish it was otherwise, but, it is NOT! She has not deserted me. Apparently love transcends all! I do not think for one second that anybody in the outside world would be as gracious as she.

[Maddie22]

Anne that was a very well written post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, concerns, beliefs, and reasoning's. I truly do appreciate and enjoy debate and discussions just like you, and this has been a very good thread for that.

In my current situation, I could be viewed as a crossdresser who will on occasion go to LGBTQ friendly bars, aka gay bars. Some of my friends know about me, and my sister does as well. On the inside I really do identify more female than male, and transitioning is a major possibility. However I'm aware of all the consequences that could result in that action. The loss of income potential, the discrimination, the possible threats of violence, the loss of friends, and the worse would be loss of family. My journey right now is to find out where my life is most harmonious, just like everyone else's.

Where my life is harmonious isn't where your life is harmonious or anyone else's for that matter, and I think that's something a lot of people forget.

I want to be a part of the equality movement more, and really get behind the transgendered movement for equality and rights in addition to all of the LGBTQ community (Please note, that when I refer to transGENDER, I refer to the umbrella term that includes transsexuals, crossdressers, gender queer's, drag queens & kings and ect...). However for me right now, I'm not at the point where I'm able to be a leader, or the activist that I want. In due time I will be, but at this point in time there are other things going on in my life that I need to take care of before I can concentrate on the movement. In addition I'm keenly aware that not everyone can be an activist at all, and I respect that. The fact that you will support me when it is that I become an activist is enough for me.

What it comes down to the most, do what makes you happy and comfortable as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's right to do the same. Stay in the closet, you have my support to do so, and if you wish to come out at some point in time, I'll support you then too!

[Tina B.]

Girl there will always be militants, but that does not mean you or I or anyone else has to give into them. They have my vote, but I'm not coming out for anybody but me, and not until I'm ready, and I may never be. It's nobody's business but my own. We do not owe any group such as this the kind of sacrifice they might ask for, they don't know what it might cost you. Once I told my wife, I have never felt the need to share it with anyone else I know. My closet is very comfortable, and I'm happy in it. I understand how you feel.
Tina B.

[GingerLeigh]

Anne, you seemed to have kicked over a hornet's nest here...what age is this person? "Loserville?" Really? Is this place even on the map? Where is it? Is this person a resident of this place?

I've been enduring constant harassment at work for being "suspected" of crossdressing (something ridiculously irritating happened yesterday) and yet fellow cdr's on this forum have the audacity to berate those of us that choose to keep this secret hidden? Those that reveal all are such brave souls...thanks for carrying the torch for us losers. Give me a break. How can anyone fault someone for not wanting to live in a hostile/humiliating environment or to have their family life crumble? Hey if that's for you then go ahead. Advice is one thing, but the holier than thou attitude I've seen on the forum is less than helpful, and sometimes downright mean spirited. "Loserville?" Gawd.

Ginger

[Amanda22]

Was never my intention to go off topic but I do think the bashing Anne received and talked about in her OP and the subsequent post from Veronica is exactly what the majority of negativity instead of support some here reply with is not helpful And it starts from the differences in where each individual is on the journey from being a male who sceretly wears one item of female clothing to those who are on HRT and scheduled SRS surgery.

WE ARE ALL NOT THE SAME SO STOP TRYING TO MAKE EVERYONE ELSE WALK A MILE IN YOUR SHOES

( not shouting just wanted to make a pont)

Kendra, I see your point and agree with your statement here. Thanks for clarifying...

[Iskandra]

Well said Anne! one can express an opinion that differs without being insulting!

Not one to join any 'militant' movement or crusade, Next thing you're wearing a ghastly brown shirt and a hideous armband, tormenting anyone who doesn't..
My journey is my own, as is everyones, and should be respected for it..

Funny, but this whole topic reminded me of a poem by A.A.Milne!


The World of Christopher Robin
Halfway down the stairs
Is a stair
Where I sit
There isn't any
Other Stair
Quite like
It.
I'm not at the bottom
I'm not at the top;
So this is the stair
Where
I always
Stop.

Halfway up the stairs
Isn't up;
And Isn't down.
It isn't in the nursery,
It isn't in the town.
And all sorts of funny thoughts
Run round my head:
"It isn't really
Anywhere!
It's somewhere else
Instead!"

Everyone has the right to sit on any stair they choose, specially if it's a comfortable/comforting one!!

[Sophie86]

Everyone has the right to sit on any stair they choose, specially if it's a comfortable/comforting one!!

Lessons from the poetry of A.A. Milne, I love it! :) I used to read those to my children when they were younger. See also "Bad Sir Brian Botany (http://bestuff.com/stuff/bad-sir-brian-botany-aamilne)." :heehee:

[Sara Jessica]

One thing that bothers me here and that is the vocal divide between segments of our community. Aside from reference to "Mr. Loserville" who deserves to be taken to task, I see words used such as "bashing", "militant", "haters", etc. referring to those in different places on the gender spectrum, specifically those who lean towards the TS end. Specifically, Veronica's comment was lumped in with Mr. Loserville's vitriol when she was merely pointing out some alternate viewpoints on some things Anne presented as being givens. But then to suggest that CD'ers be given their exclusive playground away from the "evil" TS/TG's, well you already have that. It's called panty threads.

Seriously, I support everyone along the gender spectrum and hope that those of us who are out beyond the confines of our homes will continue to work together in making the out-and-about experience better for those who CHOOSE to come after us (and more importantly, for those who are 24/7). Sometimes we do this one interaction at a time. Others may take a more broad-brushed activism approach. The positivity that is the end result benefits all because to the average muggle, they don't necessarily know if the TG they encounter identifies as CD, TS or somewhere in-between.

Over the years I've heard more who identify as CD lamenting that they aren't recognized by the TS community than otherwise. Seeing the reverse voiced here is quite illuminating, and disheartening at the same time.

[Joanagreenleaf]

The most amazing thing about your entire effort is this:

"Regardless, I am in the closet, and that is where I shall remain. Call me a citizen of “Loserville” all you want. I will not change my mind. I have worked hard for my education and career. I have a family. I have a mortgage, car payments, and a plethora of other bills to pay. When I lose my job as a result of coming out, who is going to pay my bills? Who is going to feed my family? When my child goes to school, who is going to take care of her, and protect her from the playground bullies that will discriminate against her for the mere reason that her father is a crossdresser? What about the consequences to my wife? She is not a crossdresser, but she married one. I could go on and on and on, but I am sure you get the point. But even beyond this, what about the simple freedom to remain silent about my crossdressing for no other reason than I believe it is no one else’s business, and I choose not to share?"

Your post about your "sanctuary" came a day or so after your post about "almost" being outed by a family friend who walked up behind you in YOUR kitchen. Your insistence that you're in the closet, and that it's your "sanctuary" is simply self-deluding given these facts. Meanwhile, you're the one who built the house and career of sand while "hiding safely in your closet" the entire time. Nothing will protect you when you get exposed but the fact that most people really don't much care what you do so long as you tend to your business and don't make a mess of theirs... Yet, it is interesting that you think you'll stand up for your daughter when she gets bullied (by the few) at school. But, what are you going to stand on - your brand of "honesty," your sterling "reputation" for being forthright, your prior public positions on human rights? All that is hard to do from your sanctuary - which protects you from and prepares you for nothing in the real world you fear.

In any event, whether you understand it or not, you're "out" now - just by joining the forum. Make the most of it. You may be very glad you thought out your position carefully. So far, it seems your agenda is going to be to argue that you should be allowed back into your closet to be left alone - with everyone forgetting what you're doing in there. Like that's going to work the way you want it to...

Welcome to the real world. You may not like it, but this is all we've got - so far.

It should perhaps also be noted more strongly that "your" right to be in the closet is not fairly balanced with your wife's right, your child's right, your family's right, your co-workers right, your neighbors right, etc. not to have their world imploded by your self-admitted potentially harmful activity - to "their world" - that you assert a "right" to practice while keeping them unaware of the hazard YOU present to them.

You might as well argue that you can mix small amounts of explosives in your closet, because you have a right to purchase what you want and do what you want with it where you want to and when you want to... When an explosion does occur, and your wife has a blinded husband, your child loses their hearing, the neighbor's house suffers fire damage... Then it may be more clear to you how limited YOUR rights are, and how harmful your stubborn insistence on YOUR rights and freedoms really is.

If you're doing something where you need to claim "sanctuary" just to live your life, perhaps you'd do better to do something else with your time, or, learn how to do what you're doing differently.

Different being: now that you're out of the closet, stay out.

[Pythos]

The issue I see with people firmly entrenched in the closet is, for the most part your dressing is entirely selfish. Who are you dressing for? Who are you helping? How is this helping you? The problem I have with people who are fully in the closet (I myself hide in a cupboard from my mother, and family members, as well as my aviation job. All other aspects of my life, I am very open and honest), is that you just feed the beast. That beast that feeds off of fear, and breeds more and more fear. When you hide yourself from the world doing something that harms not one person, you add more fuel to a fire of intolerance.

When I go out in my stuff, I wear it and own it (according to observers, this is not my thought at all, I think I can be a bit timid, LOL), it is difficult to conceal the sheen of black leggings, even when wearing a trench coat, mostly because I let the coat flow like a cloak (cape is too superhero sounding), and when I wear my blue disco jeans, I feel they really shine. When in a skirt with hose, I can feel like a sore thumb, but I feel really good at the same time. My point with this paragraph is I get out so others can see, and either give thought to trying it themselves, or at least think about the stupid gender limitations on styles we have. Yes I know many out there poke fun...while in their dull and mundane jeans, and non stylish t-shirts. I know there are people like my mother thinking I look like a fool, or ballet dancer without a studio (though she would not think this if I were GG). But you know what, the more it is seen, and the more people doing it, the less of a problem it will be. Look at the wearing pants several times your size fad, which is still strong.

You are a successful person right? So why not be one that shows CDing does not in anyway affect your mind, your morals, your worth, cause despite the fact you are one, you are also successful. The only reason I "hide" from my aviation job, is because I am still working my way up to a very prestigious (and neglected) level in flying and that is as instructor. When I finally achieve that very slowly I will integrate my style into my normal wear (within reason, pre flighting a cessna in a mini skirt with just pantyhose underneath, is just not practical :P), and hopefully will be able to get TG individuals into flying. Whether I will succeed at that is a going concern, and it certainly is not my main reason for getting the rating. But right now I cannot have any kind of "issue" that a closed minded FAA rep can use to stop me from getting the certificate.

I fully feel however, my steps would not be necessary if less people remain entrenched in the closet. If more had mine and others' mindsets that what we are doing is not wrong (no matter how Deut 22:5 is interpreted) and we hurt no one, and for the most part do not put across an image connected to violence. We are simply wearing styles and presenting how we should be able to.

It is of course your right to hide...but in the long run, it helps no one.

[kristinacd55]

Hi Anne,
I too was in the closet for 50 years and just started venturing out this year (support groups, shopping and meeting other friends, going to a few clubs) and the thing you'll notice about this forum is there are nice supportive folks on here, and some not so nice, not so supportive ones. I migrate towards the former ones, not the latter. In other words, don't let them bring you down!! Just my :2c:

[Loni]

i say let the ny-sayer go away, probably just a troll trying to cause trouble.
if one enjoys (for what ever reason) staying in the closet so be it who are we to tell them other wise.
sure i have been out and about, not as some here have posted, and no i do not blend in very good. but around here were i live i keep the heavy drapes closed.
we are all different, have different needs wants. so we need to support any and all others in there beliefs.

sorry karren but i do ware fem jeans when out as the male me, they just fit better. but when i got up this am i did put on a summer dress.
but as the evil poster said, i say just ignore them and enjoy your life as you want. when they pay All of your bills, and support you in every way, till then they can just shut-up and go-away.

Loni

.

[Gocaps14]

I am in the closet, for several reasons. First, what I do in my home is my business. While I am not embarrassed by what I do, I don't broadcast it either. I choose to keep this part of my private. I have no desire to wave any kind of flag. For me, crossdressing is lower on the list of important things in life. I doubt I will get fired if I showed up at my job dressed, and maybe no one will be surprised, but I would not be comfortable. I am not hiding in the closet but I am not jumping out of it either. That said, I am thinking of coming out to my stepmother. My Dad passed away a couple of years ago, and I feel like it is time. I do believe she would be supportive, but I am not sure.

[Nigella]

'Cmon, there has to be at least a couple MAB, non-TG, gentlemen with us supporting their FTMs!

None that I am aware of

[DanielleLee]

Wow.... I've read through the replies on this thread several times now. I wish I could say that I'm suprised by many of the attitudes, but I'm not.

This topic will be endlessly debated. Each side will bring valid points for or against individuals being closted to the public at large. Debate is great everyone. Let's just be respectful of each other and not call each other out. For example... don't assume that because your job has a trans friendly policy or an EEO poster mounted on the wall... that other employers don't have a fired without cause policy or that your EEO employer won't find a way to get rid of you, if they don't like your crossdressing.

Just because we don't live up to each other's standards of crossdressing or transgenderism, doesn't mean each of our opinions aren't post worthy. We are each unique, have our own situations and live somewhere different along the crossdressing or transgendered spectrum line.

I believe Anne's first post was made, to call to light how she felt attacked by another member. As all of us know, personal attacks (and I think most of us would agree that Mr Loserville was being insulting) are not permitted. Should the mods have caught it? Maybe so. However, I'm not gonna be dumb enough to judge them when they have the responsibility of policing this site. :eek: To many times... we forget or hijack another person's thread or post because of one little opinion we want add. 50 opinions later... we have this kind of situation, where some posters are starting to get a little personal. As someone mentioned above, there is a little exclamation point icon for reporting posts considered to be insulting or inflammatory.

Sorry about the soapbox, but I just felt that opinions were getting the better of us and somebody needed to step us and say "Easy Trigger"..... We're all here on this site for the same reason... support.

[ReineD]

The person who responded so strongly to your other thread was rude. Under ideal circumstances, such a post would have been caught by a moderator and if not deleted, then edited to remove the trolling comments. We moderators don't have set schedules to login and sometimes posts get missed. Had you or someone else reported the post it would have been looked at.

It's moot now to go back and perform a moderating action since you've highlighted the post in this thread, but next time please do report such a post.

At any rate, I'm glad that you brought up the topic, irrespective of this person's comments. It's good to remind everyone of the diversity here and to make a case for tolerance over the different choices we all make. It boggles my mind when I see people who are just so convinced their own way is the only way to live. How can anyone be so limited in their views?

I'm sure the person who responded negatively will have learned something from reading this thread and I hope that he or she will learn to change the tone of his or her future messages to at least respect the positions of other members.

[kendra_gurl]

The most amazing thing about your entire effort is this:


It should perhaps also be noted more strongly that "your" right to be in the closet is not fairly balanced with your wife's right, your child's right, your family's right, your co-workers right, your neighbors right, etc. not to have their world imploded by your self-admitted potentially harmful activity - to "their world" - that you assert a "right" to practice while keeping them unaware of the hazard YOU present to them.

So telling them about privetly crossdressing now has a different effect than if they ever find out in some other way? If it implodes their world either way whats the point?


You might as well argue that you can mix small amounts of explosives in your closet, because you have a right to purchase what you want and do what you want with it where you want to and when you want to... When an explosion does occur, and your wife has a blinded husband, your child loses their hearing, the neighbor's house suffers fire damage... Then it may be more clear to you how limited YOUR rights are, and how harmful your stubborn insistence on YOUR rights and freedoms really is.

Don't you think this is a rather strange and extreem comparison example? Equating crossdressing to mixing explosives is like saying if you masturbate in the shower you may as well mix explosives in there as well. It just does not make any sense. But WAIT...I thought everyone masturbates in private so that makes it okay to also mix explosives.


If you're doing something where you need to claim "sanctuary" just to live your life, perhaps you'd do better to do something else with your time, or, learn how to do what you're doing differently.

"Just to live you life" is far from just satisfying one small part of life. Again your being quite extreem here


Different being: now that you're out of the closet, stay out.

Just as Pythos said she is out of the closet but not fully, Anne only knows her sitiuation so please allow her to make the same choices she feels are right for her. Like several others have said here they were at that stage once and then progressed to taking small steps outside that closet as they were comfortable doing so.

I have more but I need to go purchase some chemicals

[Jane G]

Anne
I have to agree with most of what your saying. I'm pretty in the closet myself have been for 40+ years. I used to go out occasionally when I was younger, but never found the big world outside very accepting, so now it's home with the Ms and the TV (television I mean). I still get out for the occasional drive across the moors, but I don't really have the urge to socialise like I did when I was younger and I'm very content and happy with my lot.

Jane.

[GingerLeigh]

The most amazing thing about your entire effort is this:

"Regardless, I am in the closet, and that is where I shall remain. Call me a citizen of “Loserville” all you want. I will not change my mind. I have worked hard for my education and career. I have a family. I have a mortgage, car payments, and a plethora of other bills to pay. When I lose my job as a result of coming out, who is going to pay my bills? Who is going to feed my family? When my child goes to school, who is going to take care of her, and protect her from the playground bullies that will discriminate against her for the mere reason that her father is a crossdresser? What about the consequences to my wife? She is not a crossdresser, but she married one. I could go on and on and on, but I am sure you get the point. But even beyond this, what about the simple freedom to remain silent about my crossdressing for no other reason than I believe it is no one else’s business, and I choose not to share?"

Your post about your "sanctuary" came a day or so after your post about "almost" being outed by a family friend who walked up behind you in YOUR kitchen. Your insistence that you're in the closet, and that it's your "sanctuary" is simply self-deluding given these facts. Meanwhile, you're the one who built the house and career of sand while "hiding safely in your closet" the entire time. Nothing will protect you when you get exposed but the fact that most people really don't much care what you do so long as you tend to your business and don't make a mess of theirs... Yet, it is interesting that you think you'll stand up for your daughter when she gets bullied (by the few) at school. But, what are you going to stand on - your brand of "honesty," your sterling "reputation" for being forthright, your prior public positions on human rights? All that is hard to do from your sanctuary - which protects you from and prepares you for nothing in the real world you fear.

In any event, whether you understand it or not, you're "out" now - just by joining the forum. Make the most of it. You may be very glad you thought out your position carefully. So far, it seems your agenda is going to be to argue that you should be allowed back into your closet to be left alone - with everyone forgetting what you're doing in there. Like that's going to work the way you want it to...

Welcome to the real world. You may not like it, but this is all we've got - so far.

It should perhaps also be noted more strongly that "your" right to be in the closet is not fairly balanced with your wife's right, your child's right, your family's right, your co-workers right, your neighbors right, etc. not to have their world imploded by your self-admitted potentially harmful activity - to "their world" - that you assert a "right" to practice while keeping them unaware of the hazard YOU present to them.

You might as well argue that you can mix small amounts of explosives in your closet, because you have a right to purchase what you want and do what you want with it where you want to and when you want to... When an explosion does occur, and your wife has a blinded husband, your child loses their hearing, the neighbor's house suffers fire damage... Then it may be more clear to you how limited YOUR rights are, and how harmful your stubborn insistence on YOUR rights and freedoms really is.

If you're doing something where you need to claim "sanctuary" just to live your life, perhaps you'd do better to do something else with your time, or, learn how to do what you're doing differently.

Different being: now that you're out of the closet, stay out.

You seem so hostile and confrontational in your reply, Why? What do you stand to gain from disrespecting Anne and those of us that choose to stay in the closet by throwing out that guilt soaked diatribe? It may have been well written, eloquent even but man, wow. Might as well called us all losers too. Reading it I think you believe our lives and the lives of our families are already over with the house of sand etc... What of the "...your brand of "honesty," your sterling "reputation" for being forthright..." Was that really necessary? Throw in the kids and how we've messed them up into the mix too? Ouch! Just plain nasty.

I respect the fact that there are those out there that are comfortable enough in their own skin to out themselves willingly. I also respect the fact that there are those of us that have no choice but to go all the way. Works for you? Good for you! I'm happy, I love reading about the success stories about coming out. Some day I may do just that. But for now, it ain't me, and clearly it ain't Anne. All Anne was asking was for the same respect. I believe that was how the post started, no? "Please be kind, respect my decision.. " It was not, even after she requested it. Nice.

Ginger

[Badtranny]

Anne,
I'll add my voice to the chorus of agreement. It's always baffling to me why certain people think they have the right to direct others in the way they should live. As a community, the only thing we all have in common is that we were born male. (TG bros excepted of course)

Why is it so hard to understand that our experience is unique to ourselves. It's funny that no matter what you do or how you do it, there will be a certain group of people who are convinced you're doing it the wrong way.

In my "humble" opinion, we should all be free to express our gender identity in whatever manner we choose. I'm in the middle of my transition so I literally look like I'm somewhere in between. I'm definitely out in the open, but I don't resent my closeted sisters one little bit. Hell I was there myself, and in fact am only coming out professionally at a measured pace. (people who don't know I'm trans just think I'm gay)

You gotta do what works for YOU.

[Heather Daniels]

Anne, you do what you think is best for YOU and your family. I say that to everyone here, not just you. Closet, out, semi out, whatever. As I've said numerous times, this is NOT a one size fits all issue. It's different for each and every one of us.
This is a great place to learn and try to understand what drives us to be the way we are. It's a great place to make new friends and be able to discuss things that we just can't talk about with anyone else. But........there are always going to people who simply cannot agree to disagree. It's their way or the highway in many circumstances. Unfortunately, there are a handful of people just like that here.
Honestly, I have been able to communicate with some great people here and there are many others who I would like to, but there are others who, when I see a post from them, I simply ignore it because I know it will be more of the same....."you must tell...you must come out", etc. We all have to do whats in our best interests, and if being in the closet is in your best interest, then stay there. Be happy there. Enjoy your time there.

[Julogden]

And just how do you come up with that ridiculous argument?
I do not consider myself transgendered at all just because I enjoy to crossdress on occasion. Just as when A GG enjoys doing anything more commonly defined as male it does not make them transgendered.

I mentioned going out in the back yard practicing my golf swing in my post but that does not necessarly mean I am a Golfer or even play the game
The current, most widely used definition for the term "transgender" is as an umbrella term that includes everyone whose gender presentation or identity varies, in any way, from the so-called normal of male=man=wears only men's clothes and female=woman=wears only women's clothes. Crossdressers, according to that definition, are definitely included in the transgendered category. The term transgender is a VERY vague, non-specific term nowadays.

I can understand both sides of the discussion. Time and time again, I see CD's post here and in other forums, lamenting about why won't society accept us? Well, part of the reason that society is hesitant to welcome us is the fear of the unknown. If we don't get out in public and let the non-TG public see that we're nothing to be feared, then things will never change.

And on the other hand, there are parts of the world where going out dressed up may result in being physically attacked or jailed, maybe even killed. Legal protections in the US are slowing coming, but in many situations, coming out at work may very likely have a big negative impact on one's employment. Even where it's illegal to discriminate based on gender identity, there are usually ways around the law if an employer wants to fire you for being TG.

Carol

[Pythos]

If you want to know what bad effect being fully in the closet can have on the comunity as a whole, all you need to do is look at what the right wing used against against anthony Weiner. OH MY GOD. And guess what....in the friggin closet.

Meanwhile there is the mayor of Silverton Washington (or oregon, I forget) who came completely out, and attends civic functions in skirts and other items of women's clothing, with his wife sometimes by his side, so that IT COULD NOT BE USED AGAINST HIM. Something I am so looking forward to in the future.

Hiding helps no one. (yes, pot calling kettles black, I know)

[Iskandra]

If you want to know what bad effect being fully in the closet can have on the comunity as a whole.. ..
Hiding helps no one. (yes, pot calling kettles black, I know)

This is the thing I have an issue with reading this thread!
Not everyone is out to help anyone other than themselves, let alone a community that in reality consists mostly of strangers! Some are not willing, some are simply not able for personal or what ever reason.. I think one must have the right tools, mental and otherwise before you can efficiently help others.. If I've only just learnt to doggypaddle in the shallow end barely keeping my head above water, would you let me teach your (future) kids to swim in the ocean?

To use another swimming analogy, I learnt to swim when as a kid(4 or 5) my grandfather threw me in the deep end, I loved water ever since, others get thrown in the deep end, learn to fear water and never swim again!

Is it selfish to know ones own limitations? Hardly! Is being selfish a bad thing in all instances?! Not on my life! A very important rule of 'first aid' and scuba diving for instance is DO NOT try to save someone if it puts yourself in serious danger!! Selfish? Some would say so, but it is so for very good reason!

In this instance is it not selfish to say "you're not helping me, so what you're doing is wrong"?!

Just keep in mind, much change for the better on this planet has come from one individual who with patience and persistence often at great personal expense changed society, Ghandi, Jesus, Mandela, The first coloured lady who refused to sit in the coloured section of the bus, Madam Curie, the list goes on!
If the shoe fits wear it! But I know my feet are not big enough to fill such shoes! :)

Peace,

[Presh GG]

Ever notice those who scream the loudest about being out [ joanagreenleaf ] doesn't even have the b!!!s.... umm ... nerve to post a photo?:devil:

Anne, I like your style and your love and respect for your wife and child shines on thru.

Sincerely
Presh GG

[t-girlxsophie]

I find Anne's post to be a very eloquent,and well thought out one.She is being true to herself and protecting her family at the same time.It suprises me the comments from people who have absolutely no knowledge of her circumstances,telling her to "MAN UP" if you will and out herself at work,to family etc.Only Anne knows how it will be recieved by everyone in her life.I would say,even us that do go out a majority still probably hide this part of us from a large percentage of ppl in our Lives out of a sense of self preservation.

Anne do what you think is right,and to hell with those that wanna verbally abuse you for it.Better to be safe in your closet than being outed and left with nothing

Sophie

[veroncia57]

With the exception of the GGs everyone on this forum is transgendered.

I am very proud to say that I an NOT a 'Transgendered" I am a crossdresser who happens to be very happy to be a man but enjoy the finer things that females get to. There is no way that I could nor want to be a woman. There are those who do and I wish them the best, but I am very happy with the one 'NUT' that I have left.:)

[sara.s]

With the exception of the GGs everyone on this forum is transgendered.
:thumbsdn::thumbsdn:

[Sara Jessica]

I am very proud to say that I an NOT a 'Transgendered"

You forgot to say "Not that there's anything wrong with it."

Newsflash, you're as TG as the rest of us.

[busker]

The issue I see with people firmly entrenched in the closet is, for the most part your dressing is entirely selfish. Pythos, while I usually follow the logic of your threads, I'm missing something here. People CD for personal reasons--so that naturally makes it selfish. I don't dress for anyone but me.
Who are you dressing for? Who are you helping? I don't think that being a CDer I'm supposed to be therapist. How is this helping you? The problem I have with people who are fully in the closet (I myself hide in a cupboard from my mother, and family members, as well as my aviation job. All other aspects of my life, I am very open and honest), is that you just feed the beast. This is a contradiction. Either you're in or you're out. You can't have you cake and eat it too. That beast that feeds off of fear, and breeds more and more fear. When you hide yourself from the world doing something that harms not one person, you add more fuel to a fire of intolerance. If no-one hears the tree fall in the woods, did it make a sound? If someone doesn't know I Cd, than I can't be add anything to anything.

When I go out in my stuff, I wear it and own it (according to observers, this is not my thought at all, I think I can be a bit timid, LOL), it is difficult to conceal the sheen of black leggings, even when wearing a trench coat, mostly because I let the coat flow like a cloak (cape is too superhero sounding), and when I wear my blue disco jeans, I feel they really shine. When in a skirt with hose, I can feel like a sore thumb, but I feel really good at the same time. My point with this paragraph is I get out so others can see, and either give thought to trying it themselves, or at least think about the stupid gender limitations on styles we have. Yes I know many out there poke fun...while in their dull and mundane jeans, and non stylish t-shirts. I know there are people like my mother thinking I look like a fool, or ballet dancer without a studio (though she would not think this if I were GG). But you know what, the more it is seen, and the more people doing it, the less of a problem it will be. Crossdressing is NEVER going to be fashionable in our lifetime. Look at the wearing pants several times your size fad, which is still strong.

You are a successful person right? So why not be one that shows CDing does not in anyway affect your mind, your morals, your worth, cause despite the fact you are one, you are also successful. Why should one be an object lesson to morons? The only reason I "hide" from my aviation job, is because I am still working my way up to a very prestigious (and neglected) level in flying and that is as instructor. When I finally achieve that very slowly I will integrate my style into my normal wear (within reason, pre flighting a cessna in a mini skirt with just pantyhose underneath, is just not practical :P), and hopefully will be able to get TG individuals into flying. Whether I will succeed at that is a going concern, and it certainly is not my main reason for getting the rating. But right now I cannot have any kind of "issue" that a closed minded FAA rep can use to stop me from getting the certificate. So, you are IN THE CLOSET RIGHT? You are moral, you
intelligent, you are successful, right
I fully feel however, my steps would not be necessary if less people remain entrenched in the closet. If more had mine and others' mindsets that what we are doing is not wrong (no matter how Deut 22:5 is interpreted) and we hurt no one, and for the most part do not put across an image connected to violence. We are simply wearing styles and presenting how we should be able to.

It is of course your right to hide...but in the long run, it helps no one. ]
[B]It isn't supposed to be therapeutic to anyone but the CD themselves
I think your personal desires have gotten the better of your common sense. Cding is just never going to be mainstream no matter how many go out en femme.
Just my opinion , of course. Fighting our own inner demons is enough battle without being recruited to fight someone else's battle.[/B

[Rianna Humble]

I am very proud to say that I an NOT a 'Transgendered" I am a crossdresser

You contradict yourself here. Nigella did not say that apart from the GG's we are all transsexual, she said we are all transgender.

If you lookup the word "Transgender" you will see that it covers everyone who crosses (trans) the gender stereotype - including but not limited to crossdressers.

So according to you, you are not transgender, you are transgender. Guess what, that is self-contradictory.

[Frédérique]

Hiding helps no one.

Do me a favor, and DO NOT empower the ones who detest closeted crossdressers – you should know better, and it certainly doesn’t help to belittle individuals who may have good reason to “hide,” as you have so shamefully stated in your post. Honestly, they put all types of crossdressers in the same "basket," for lack of a better word, and it is completely unsupportive to split hairs about a subject you may not be familiar with. In certain familial or societal circumstances, for some good people, it may be a good idea to NOT come out – just because someone feels superior to others by their personal achievement of incorporation into society doesn’t give them the right to preach about what is right for EVERYONE.

I assume we’re all here because we have a different “take” on crossdressing, correct? An accepted form of MtF crossdressing, approved by the membership and sanctioned by same was not presented for my "signature" when I joined this discussion pit, so I assume all types of crossdressing are allowed here, and ALL members can seek support through interaction with other CD’ers. I did not have to jump through any hoops to post messages here, but you are, in essence, asking some members to “measure up” to a certain standard, and bend to fit YOUR idea of what true crossdressing is. This is very painful, and you should realize that fact before you gather any words together on this subject. I honestly think that this forum can be separated into two camps – the ones who respect the feelings of others, and the ones that don’t. If you respect the feelings of others you MAY wind up in the closet, but you are no less a crossdresser, or a human being, than the next individual...
:straightface:

[Pythos]

Frederique,

Excuse me,

You should know better than to think I am belittling ANYONE!!! Your should also know better than to think I am measuring myself against anyone!!! You of all people. You who post such thought provoking things should Know far better than to think such.

I was stating what to many here is a fact. Hiding just continues this being a taboo. Period END!!.

I expect NO ONE to fit to my ideas of what is "true"crossdressing, because I myself am NOT a true crossdresser!!. I am ME, no one wants to be like me, and I am perfectly fine with that. I do not think I am better than someone. But when I see behavior that reinforces the incorrect assumptions about a group I speak up. Yes it may make me out to be an ass, but I will say on an unrelated note, in the past I was an ass, but now, the person that thought me an ass is indeed seeing that I was correct. This happens to me all the friggin time.

Hiding DOES NOT help anyone. It helps continue the idea that crossdressers are ashamed of what they do. They are hurting NO ONE, and yet they hide as if they are committing some heinous act. Meanwhile, the drunk ruining the family, or the gambler wasting the money is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY out in the open!!!.

To most of the people out in the "real world" crossdressers ARE less than human. When the only "public" cds are the likes of the ones that get most of the news, it is no bloody wonder that we are considered such. I simply state what I do, because it is what I feel.

I frankly am sick of feeling the need to hide AT ALL. But my minimal hiding is necessary and will continue to be so, until those of us in this community do as the women did, and what the gays did, and have no fear, and get the hell out. I intend to do that when for me the time is right. I am currently NOT successful, I am currently NOT well off. Now if I was content with being where I am in life, I would just be right out, but at the moment due to what I am shooting for in SOME areas of my life, I must hide. I hate it with a passion, but I must. But it is not my WHOLE life from which I hide, just a portion of it. As I said, I am quite open to those not connected to my aviation, nor my immediate family.

A poster here stated crossdressing will never be fashionable in our lifetimes, well no duh, especially when the prevailing attitude is like this. I am more than sure women that wanted the vote were told by other women " We will never get the vote in our life time". Common, that is nothing but a cop out, and you darn well know it.


I think your personal desires have gotten the better of your common sense. Cding is just never going to be mainstream no matter how many go out en femme.
Just my opinion , of course. Fighting our own inner demons is enough battle without being recruited to fight someone else's battle.[/B

and this final quote is why we are our own worst enemy.

and yes, to the one that posted that quote, it is possible to be partway out of the closet. The in the closet people I try to encourage to get out, are the ones that don't even go out to parties, or cd groups or social events CDed, I am referring to those that HIDE in the closet the entire time they are enfem. One MAIN reason I find this to not be wise is, that if they get "caught" they are in for a world of hurt the likes of which they never ever thought of. If you are content with running that risk, then so be it. But please don't come posting here about getting caught when (not if) you do, and your life explodes into a super nova.

By the way, I am constantly measured against others and often times am the inferior, so don't think I don't know what it is like. Do you know what it does for me, it gives me a target to improve about myself. Unless I just don't give a fig about that measurement.



(The preceding views are those of Pythos, and may echo what many here think, but most likely are just thoughts that will piss everyone off)

[Amanda22]

Can it be correctly stated that the issue is centering around:

Is it a moral imperative of a crossdresser to fight for social justice at the risk of his/her real or perceived loss of relationships and/or income?

It is an awful lot to expect of every crossdresser in every type of situation. I just think that's a very heavy load of guilt/shame placed on a person in addition to that of society.

It takes enormous courage for a crossdresser to come out to one single person. I very nearly blacked out when I told my wife last year. Now, she is a believer that crossdressers are not to be feared but to be celebrated. Have I contributed to the "cause" of societal acceptance of crossdressers? I think so. Was it risky? It sure was! The person I treasure more than anyone in this world could have rejected me.

It's my perception that those who consider themselves in the closet have revealed their need to CD to at least one person. I consider that courageous and deserving of a big "thank you" from the CD community as a whole. I view that as social change at the lowest of grassroots level. Instead, the reaction I see in this forum is "why aren't you doing more?!"

I want to make clear that my motivation is not to antagonize. I really love you all. It is painful to me to read this thread because people I care about are getting their feelings hurt. I know I'll get s**t for putting a value on people's feelings when there's a "social war to fight," but I am naturally an extremely compassionate person, and I know no other way.

I need to find one of Karren Hutton's posts showing her wonderful humor, or a what-color-panties-are-you-wearing thread to lighten my mood. I need to avoid this thread because it's making me sad.

[Iskandra]

I was stating what to many here is a fact. Hiding just continues this being a taboo. Period END!!.
I hide what I do in my bedroom or who with, sexually that is! (More people should), yet it's not a taboo, if you can go by the worlds population, or the porn industries gross profit! :heehee:


But when I see behavior that reinforces the incorrect assumptions about a group I speak up.. ..Hiding DOES NOT help anyone. It helps continue the idea that crossdressers are ashamed of what they do.. I frankly am sick of feeling the need to hide AT ALL.. .. I must hide. I hate it with a passion, but I must. But it is not my WHOLE life from which I hide, just a portion of it. As I said, I am quite open to those not connected to my aviation, nor my immediate family.
Practice what you preach, it's the best way to get people to follow dear Pythos! You feeling you need to hide is no-ones burden but your own, inflicting it on others is unfair at the least!


..I am referring to those that HIDE in the closet the entire time they are enfem. One MAIN reason I find this to not be wise is, that if they get "caught" they are in for a world of hurt the likes of which they never ever thought of. If you are content with running that risk, then so be it. But please don't come posting here about getting caught when (not if) you do, and your life explodes into a super nova.
Maybe not wise, or maybe it is, we are not to judge that, not walking in their shoes we can never know.. As for posting here, is support and sympathy here or elsewhere just restricted who believe as we do? Great purple space pixie help me!
Hugs and understanding for your situation..

[Noortje]

There is nothing I could say that has not been said ten times (and better!) already above. But I would like you to know that staying in the closet is OK if that is what you want. It's your life, and you do not have to do anything you do not want to for someone else's greater good. Those negative commenters are like feminists who get angry when a woman chooses to stay home and take care of the children. They claim to be fighting for your rights, but really they want you to become exactly like them.

[Joanagreenleaf]

Ever notice those who scream the loudest about being out [ joanagreenleaf ] doesn't even have the b!!!s.... umm ... nerve to post a photo?:devil:

Anne, I like your style and your love and respect for your wife and child shines on thru.

Sincerely
Presh GG


Presh,

Nice cat-suit. It suits you, I suppose - claws and all. I'm a "cat person..." So, it's all good...

By the way, have you noticed that people with weak arguments resort to arguments against the person rather arguments against their (better) ideas?

I have - you should.

When Anne's world falls apart - wife, child, job, and all - due to crossdressing - and the next long set of posts here is about "lying," "deception," and, "dishonesty" from crossdressing husbands, fathers, brothers, sons, co-workers, etc. I hope you'll remember that "balls" are only as good as the person using them.

Anne can do better - and should - that's the only thing I have really said all along.

[Pythos]

Practice what you preach, it's the best way to get people to follow dear Pythos! You feeling you need to hide is no-ones burden but your own, inflicting it on others is unfair at the least!

I do, for the most part.

I have given some thought to this though. I am wrong. I am wrong to want help from people in the same boat as me in several respects. I need to accept there are those that would rather hide than try to advance things for future generations. Thus continuing the cycle that provides the impulse to hide.

Yes, bedroom stuff should stay in the bedroom. Last I checked women do not wear skirt suits in the bedroom all the time. They do not wear everyday items exclusively for bedroom things. Now, if the closet crossdressing is mostly limited to lingerie, and or underwear and nothing else, then yea, staying in the closet is what is best, in fact it is expected. I am talking about men wearing the same styles as women do out in the "real world" but staying hidden.

Okay, so my former stance is wrong. People should hide. They should do nothing. Those of us that do will just hopefully get the recognition that trail blazers got in other areas of civil rights. (or a bullet in the head...most likely by someone that has something closeted in his or her life). I just hope that if my life gets ruined by someone that hates what I represent, that someone is hiding some big secret, exposing hypocrites is fun. (I am not implying anyone here would ruin someone else's life, but I am well aware that those that attack someone's character is often hiding even worse secrets.)

[Joanagreenleaf]

"Practice what you preach, it's the best way to get people to follow dear Pythos! You feeling you need to hide is no-ones burden but your own, inflicting it on others is unfair at the least!"


1) Practicing what you preach is preaching what you practice. But, it's still practice, not perfection.

2) Feeling the need to hide, on her part, is largely the result of so many others needing to hide too. So, it is not just her burden. But, she's aware of the power of numbers and the lost and wasted energy from having to go forward alone, when we aren't...

3) Nature has built into us the "primal scream..." When attacked by a lion and dealing with imminent injury, pain, and probably death - men, women, and children of all ages, races, cultures, and times, emit an unmistakable and almost indescribable sound of alert, fear, and, danger - all at the same time.

Is it "inflicting" something on others to make certain sounds in certain circumstances, or, a perhaps unasked for, but much needed, gift?

[Nicole Erin]

Ever notice those who scream the loudest about being out [ joanagreenleaf ] doesn't even have the b!!!s.... umm ... nerve to post a photo?:devil:

If Joana DOES post photos, I am voting for pics of stockings, high heels, mini skirt. But no photos of her "nerves" (as Presh put it hahah)

Did I miss the point of this thread again?

[Pythos]

More thinking.

I guess the way this needs to be looked at is in the same way "witches" hid. If they were to reveal themselves they got a one way ticket to the stake.

Hmmm.

So are we the equivalent of the likes of women wrongly accused of practicing witchcraft? Or something along those lines. Then in that case we are completely justified to hide.

Need to do more thinking on this.


Feeling the need to hide, on her part, is largely the result of so many others needing to hide too. So, it is not just her burden. But, she's aware of the power of numbers and the lost and wasted energy from having to go forward alone, when we aren't...


I think THIS is at the very heart of the tendency for members here to hide. Numbers are very important, and I feel, that if all of us were to surface at once on one day the numbers would be stunning.

[Nigella]

There are many reasons why anyone does what they do, but the biggest reason for not doing anything is fear.

In the case of being in the closet, which I respect by the way, but firmly believe that it is unfair to hide this from an SO, fear of what would happen if people found out is the biggest thing that holds people back.

There is of course a consensus that society has a view of crossdressers which has become stereotypical. How do we break that stereotyping, TBPH we cant, when we, as a community fuel that stereotyping.

[Pythos]

I think this quote from earlier needs to be reposted.

Always try to remember that this Forum is about People expressing their opinions. Otherwise it would look a lot like some well known Conservative Talk Show where all we have is Clones agreeing with The Self-Proclaimed Guru of Conservative Thought.

If you stick around, you will get lots and lots of people not agreeing with you. (Just as some will disagree with me) But, with A Forum like this you also achieve "Discourse." As you already stated, we learn a lot from listening to The Ideas of others.

In my case, I am not meaning to hurt anyone here. I am trying to get people to really look at what they are doing. Nigella stated it wonderfully and with more eloquence than I ever could. Crossdressers are still considered VERY deviant (and in many eyes, evil), and when we act, as if what we do is wrong, we just fuel that line of thinking. I am not in anyway clear of adding fuel. I have said, I hide. I hide from my mother, due to her past reactions, and I hide from my other job. Do I want to, and do I want to continue? NO. I want the day to come that I can be fully open, but, and this is the important part, I cannot do it alone. I have a hard enough time with my own personal style. But that difficulty is decreasing the more and more I get out.

It would seem I have lost a friend here due to my stance. What saddens me is that person chose to argue in PM, opposed to stating their case in this thread. This sucks, but it is the result when someone forgets the above notion. This is a discussion group, we should discuss things.

[Cynthia Anne]

Anne! I am so proud of you! First of all for you being you! Second, for starting a cat fight thats out of control! Love you! Now what did I do with that bucket of water! Hugs!

[Anne2345]

Anne can do better - and should - that's the only thing I have really said all along.

This is quite an interesting statement, Joana. The only thing you have said all along is that I can do better? Hmmmm, let's check the record:


Not buying it.
Sounds like a poem you have to repeat to convince yourself to keep doing what you're doing - the way you're doing it.
I'm not your closet dwelling sister; I live in a bigger world.
A closet is a place to put things until I get back to it and move things around.
That's all it is... It's no place to live a decent life.

This was your first response to my post entitled "My Closet is My Blessed Sanctuary. Is your?"


You're still talking about "that" closet, right?
This closet you're praising...
Isn't that the one you wrote about "almost" getting busted in the other day?
It is... So, it isn't a sanctuary at all.
It would be unkind of anyone to allow you to delude yourself to your own harm.
But, we can if you insist.

This was your second response to my post. And your third and final post I placed within the body of the OP herein.

So is this REALLY all you have been saying? I have reviewed your posts several times, and it is funny, but I simply cannot find any constructive advice within your posts at all. All I see are ugly, hateful, and intolerant words.

Do you even understand the intent of the post you are currently replying to? You have yet to address your insulting words in any manner whatsoever. Have you even read the responses herein that agree that you were insulting and dismissive? Have you no compassion within your rigid stance? I still do not understand how I am to accept your posts for what you claim - that you are merely telling me I can do better.


By the way, have you noticed that people with weak arguments resort to arguments against the person rather arguments against their (better) ideas?

Yes, Joana, I have noticed that people with weak arguments resort to arguments against the person. In fact, you are the primary culprit here.

You have no argument, other than your opinion. You generically state that if we all come out together, we will take the day and society will accept us. You have failed to offer any substance to your opinion. You have failed to cite any authority for your opinion. You have failed to logically pursue any cogent progression of thought, or analysis of consideration, within your statement. Instead, you tell me and the closet crossdressing community that we are residents of "Loserville." Do you even understand the concept of debate and civil discourse?

Moreover, what experience and expertise do you base your opinion on? Are you an elected official? Are you a community leader? Are you an activist planner? Are you a scholar? Have you even met a member of your state's legislature? Are you a consultant? A professional strategist, perhaps? How is it that you, and only you, know what is in the best interest of the closeted crossdressing community? Even beyond that, how is it that you, and only you, understand what is best for me. Your stance equates to the epitome of arrogance. Arrogance that is based upon ignorance and intolerance, which makes for a dangerous, volitile combination.

Women, gays, and minorities have been fighting for decades and centuries for equal rights. They have yet to achieve it. The obese are discriminated against. The overly thin are discriminated against. Ugly people, poor people, and uneducated people are discriminated against. If there is a subgroup of people out there, someone is going to discriminate against them. So how is it that you have all of the answers, where no one else does?

Are you an attorney? Are you well-versed within the law? Do you know what a "protected-class" is? In theory, the law protects certain protected classes from discrimination, based upon factors such as race, gender, religion, etc. Has this ended discrimination against such people? No, it has not. But guess what, gender identity is NOT a protected class. If one resides within a state that practices at-will employment, were you aware that an employee can be fired for any reason, a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all? An employee, however, may not be terminated if the termination is based upon a reason associated with the protected class, but being transgendered is not protected. In the United States, we are free to discriminate at will, as long as we do not do so against a protected class. We ain't a protected class.

So what is your plan for achieving equal rights and acceptance? Merely go out in public in numbers? What about legislation? Have you ever spoken to a member of your state's legislature? Have you requested certain bills be placed on your state's legislative agenda? Do you lobby? Do you even understand the legislative process, and the politics of it all? Are you planning on running for office yourself?

Ever heard the phrase "perception is everything?" There is a reason why many politicians hide skeletons in their closets - because they know they will not otherwise win an election. And if our own representatives are hiding their skeletons, what makes you think they will be willing to take up such a potentially controversersial topic as transgendered issues? Some have the courage to do so, and more in time will. But not because someone like YOU calls them up and says if you do not take up this bill, you are a citizen of "Loserville." You need more than that. You need an actual plan. You have yet to articulate any. Unless, of course, your plan merely is to insult those who disagree with you. And good luck getting anywhere with that strategy, because that always works, right?

You are quite naive in your assessment of me, and the situation in general. Again, you know nothing about me, and from what little I know about you, and your style of "debate" and "discourse," I already know more than I care to know about you.

You state I can do "better." Your definition of the term "better" must be quite different than mine, because I think I am doing pretty damn good as it is.

Going back to the intent of this thread, again, you have yet to address your ugly, insulting, and offensive words. Do you plan on addressing the issue? Or is it your intent to continue down the low road?

I merely ask that members respect each other, and debate and discuss their differences and opinions with class, diginity, and respect. I am heartened by the vast majority of the responses herein. There are many fantastic members, and hopefully those members that are less than respectful will take a look in the mirror, reassess, and treat their fellow members, regadless of perceived differences, with kindness.

[Amanda22]

I like reading every word of Anne's posts, FWIW. I'm really glad she's here and participating.

> I consider this a support site as opposed to an activism site. Perhaps the mods could set up an activism section?

> I don't care if crossdressing is widely accepted in my lifetime or not. I still go out when I feel like and that makes me happy. In fact, I like the rush of being a woman out and about. I do what I want regardless of the haters. I'm unbelievably happy in my life (evident in my photo?) and I consider that a pretty good definition of success.

> I think Pythos is awesome. Such honest effort to clarify thinking is so wonderful.

[suchacutie]

The rampant illogic that is flowing in this thread astounds me! Let's see if we can straighten out some of it:

Let's take one typical CD: Here she is, completely open with her SO, respecting her SO's limitations (which might include not announcing her feminine self to the world), and yet, some in this thread see this somehow as a negative effect on the perception of the transgendered!!! ???

HELLOOOOO!!! If this CD is completely closeted, NO ONE knows about it, and therefore has absolutely NO impact on the population in general!! They are completely transparent! Only actions IN PUBLIC can affect a public perception!

Sheesh.

Secondly, someone who is completely transparent to the public cannot be faulted for anything negative. Effectively, in the public eye they don't exist. No one...and I do mean no one...has the right to tell them how to run their lives or even cast a negative glance in their direction. They are hurting no one!

In fact, those who are unhappy with closeted CDs are being very effective about helping them to STAY in the closet by being negative about their decision to stay there. It would only be encouragement, and not castigation, that will help more CDs to venture out into the public arena.

So, what do we have: We have a population of closeted CDs who hurt no one, and we have that same potential army of people who might make us a little more visible in the population (hmmm, how are we visible when we wish to "pass" .... hmmm???) but who will only be helped to go into the public eye if they are not scolded about their choices.

Thus, why not say something like, "I fully support your right and decision to keep your transgendered nature as a private part of your life. I do hope that you can continue to help shape people's opinions about transgenderism in a positive way, and if the desire to venture out into the pulic arena strikes you, I hope you feel you have the support of all of us to do so."

Might that not work better?

tina

[Kathi Lake]

I don't care if crossdressing is widely accepted in my lifetime or not. I still go out when I feel like and that makes me happy.That's exactly what I feel. When I first joined, there was one very vocal person with the opinion that society, family, marriage, and everyone else be damned - they were going to go out there to change the world, and if the world, family, and wife didn't like it, well then, too bad! She definitely put the 'ack' in activist, so to speak. :) If you didn't share her views (the horror!), she would unapologetically tear you down to let the world see what a spineless, good-for-nothing waste of a pretty dress you were. What a sad, bitter person she was. She only seemed happy when she was 'debating' someone else. Pity.

Amanda, I'm like you. I dress for fun, not the future. I dress for me, not for those to come. Short-sighted? Slighting the generations to come? Perhaps. I say let them fight their own battles. It'll toughen the little sissies up! (tongue in cheek, people. Climb down :)).

Kathi

[Frédérique]

Excuse me, You should know better than to think I am belittling ANYONE!!! Your should also know better than to think I am measuring myself against anyone!!! You of all people. You who post such thought provoking things should Know far better than to think such.

I’m not singling YOU out, Pythos (I hope you know me better than that), but your words did jump-start my reaction. It may sound like I’m addressing you personally, but you happen to be on one side of this discussion, and I’m on the other. Up until now I never actually saw this closeted vs. “out” conflict – I had heard about it only through the words of other members. This is ridiculous, counter-productive, non-supportive, and makes one feel that crossdressing may not be worth the effort in the first place, if this is what the “community” is all about. Saying that a closeted crossdresser does harm to the transgendered community in some way is like me, a semi-closeted crossdresser, boldly stating that those taking their expression to the streets is somehow injurious to our “cause.” Equally ridiculous, wouldn’t you say? I would never dream of saying such a thing to another crossdresser of a different feather, but there you go – I’m conscious that there are other types of CD’ers, all with their own agenda, according to what each individual desires to achieve. There are PLENTY of closeted crossdressers on this site – I’ve probably been out and about more than most of them, but I’m not going to use that fact against someone who may have good cause for remaining in the closet. A few closeted souls will not make a huge difference to our community as a whole, IMHO. The fractious nature of this lonely island should be the #1 issue for discussion here, and it’s downright alarming, to say the least…

PS - I'm sorry it takes me so long to reply, but the closet IS comfortable...:heehee:


Hiding DOES NOT help anyone. It helps continue the idea that crossdressers are ashamed of what they do. They are hurting NO ONE, and yet they hide as if they are committing some heinous act. Meanwhile, the drunk ruining the family, or the gambler wasting the money is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY out in the open!!!.

I think you’re comparing apples to oranges, unless you are inferring that crossdressing needs to be placed alongside other addictions like gambling and alcoholism. Are you? Have you ever considered the fact that "hiding" may help the one who is hiding? I think it’s a major accomplishment to take pains to NOT hurt someone, and that, by itself, should be regarded in a positive light and recognized as such. Of course, I should talk – I don’t have a SO, or children, or friends to hide from. I’m interested in self-preservation, not confrontation. Some of us are not cut out to be the vanguard you wish to be, but I respect your position on this divisive issue …

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Whether a CD is closeted or out shouldn't really make a difference should it? We all have to have forms of self-preservation to mantain our identity. We only tell certain people about certain aspects of our lives. Not everyone knows the situations I face b/c I am selective or "closeted" in whom I choose to trust with my personal information b/c misuse of it could bring harm to me. If a CD isn't comfortable then who is he hurting until he decides to come out? I would think it would be more devistating to him to come out before he is ready.

All is as it should be and until the time we are ready to change then we must do what we must do to survive.

[kendra_gurl]

Well said tina



Thus, why not say something like, "I fully support your right and decision to keep your transgendered nature as a private part of your life. I do hope that you can continue to help shape people's opinions about transgenderism in a positive way, and if the desire to venture out into the pulic arena strikes you, I hope you feel you have the support of all of us to do so."

Might that not work better?

tina

What a Novel idea. Lend support while expressing hope for the future. I Think someone should start a web site called Crossdressers . com. A place for support and acceptance. A place were we don't have to be afraid of being attacked when we express an opinion

See how ingenious it is to just stick to the OP and make a response without being negative.

Oh well I doubt it will ever happen simply because some have become Queens.

Drama Queens that is

[Joanagreenleaf]

Anne,

If you don't want to participate, you don't have to.

Your call on how much time and effort you put into this discussion, not mine.

[Kathi Lake]

Your call on how much time and effort you put into this discussion, not mine.Riiiiiiight!

And when she puts lots of time and effort into it, you claim that you don't want to read it as it it too long. You are just a conundrum wrapped inside an engima, wrapped inside a troll, aren't you? I know you're enjoying this. :)

Kathi

[ameliabee]

+1 to Anne2345's fangirl count.

More substantially though, and this may be a consequence of life in a college town, but I don't see a need for activism and the like. I have never faced an iota of discrimination for the cross-dressing habit, but I treat it as a hobby and don't do it where it's inappropriate. I have no burning urge to declare to the world that, "I'm abnormal and you'll just have to deal with it!"

Regardless of transgender status, people have a responsibility to secure their livelihoods as well as those of their dependents. Such must take primacy over any idealism or cause. Clarion calls for self-sacrifice reminisce of a duly castigated idealism treated in Atlas Shrugged.

If people choose to behave unprofessionally, there is a pretty simple way to deal with them - don't feed the trolls.

I agree that there is need for reform as concerns the treatment of those deciding to transition or even walk around with dedicated facial hair while in a dress, but that's not my battle, and it doesn't seem to be Anne's either.

- Amelia

[Heather Daniels]

Riiiiiiight!

And when she puts lots of time and effort into it, you claim that you don't want to read it as it it too long. You are just a conundrum wrapped inside an engima, wrapped inside a troll, aren't you? I know you're enjoying this. :)

Kathi


Kathi is 100% right. Why are you even here Joanagreenleaf?

[DonniDarkness]

I find it unbelievably stupid to even argue about this topic. Yet here i am contributing....

Life is all about dealing with the choices we make for ourselves

When, where, and what you do is a choice that you make for yourself. Anne, Dont ever let anyone make you feel down about yourself when you are perfectly happy with the choices you have made for yourself. Whatever choices you make, that define your own happiness for the better, are Yours alone.....Dont let the bigots that call themselves part of our support group ruin the happiness you have. Its is apparent to the rest of us that they are truly unhappy with who they are themselves, by how they post derogotory and negatively charged comments towards those who support them in the decisions they make for THEMSELVES....

Just to clarify.

Bigot : a person who is obstinately (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obstinate) or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance

The support group is full of negative people from all aspects of the TG umbrella..negative comments like the one you posted in the OP are as abundant here as they are anywhere else on the net.....but there are some incredible people here who would support anyone in who they aspire to be.

Intolerance of another persons choices only helps to keep the hatred flowing in full force. No, "tough love" or "Hardcore reality dose" is going to have a positive outcome to another support forum member. By making such negative statements you are only compounding the problem of acceptance among our community.

Acceptance: the act (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/act) of taking or receiving something offered.


So, Anne, Enjoy your choices... I support you.....and i accept your choice.


Trying to Teach Empathy,

-Donni-

[Deedee Dupree]

Hi Anne,

I don't often reply these days... Like Abby, I have left Cding behind with "grace".... for a few this is the inevitable result of integration.

Your thread compells me to submit my opinion for your consideration; to continue,

Having been active with certain groups in the past, and having observed this forum for a year prior to my signing up, I have observed from time to time a "ringer" appears whose only purpose is to cause as much disruption as possible.

I have also read all of this persons posts, and it appears to me the writings exhibit little if any sense of compassion or regard to others feelings. The tone is abrasive and confrontational as he renders plenty of strong opinions. The approach and writing style is similar to one who was here about a year ago.

Quite frankly, anybody else's opinion(including mine) as to what brings satisfaction/happiness to you (or another) is entirely irrelevant.

However, there are plenty of members here who understand and relate to your current circumstances.

I have put the "culprit" on my ignore list and suggest you do the same. Feeding "negativity" is counterproductive.

Your sanctuary is your secret garden, and the placement of your gardens walls is up to you as well as to whom you let enter your garden. The garden will evolve on your terms...

Best Wishes, dd

[Pythos]

HELLOOOOO!!! If this CD is completely closeted, NO ONE knows about it, and therefore has absolutely NO impact on the population in general!! They are completely transparent! Only actions IN PUBLIC can affect a public perception!


WElllllll, that is until they get caught. Then it can be a very bad thing.

[Marissa]

In a means to prevent being :hwac: I am keeping my opinions :censor: :censor: and will just 'listen' to all the :chatterbox::chatterbox:...Its my only means to ensure it :wasntme: who :stirthepot: :stirthepot:

But I will say that I :cheer::cheer: the closeted..the supporters of the closeted and any citizen of 'Loserville'... :bighug2::love:

[Cynthia Anne]

Nicely put Marissa! Thank you! I think I need a bigger bucket of water!

[Tara D. Rose]

So many on here in this post seem to or are defining "closet" for which it really is. A place to hang clothes and shoes and all. Why is this going on? When the word "closet" is used in this post and the other post’s by the originator, she isn't referring to the "closet" in it's perfect definition in Funk and Wagnell. She is referring to staying home. And in that home where she is either King or Queen, the op is talking about staying inside and the safety of her home and not treading out into the public where so many of “US” are ridiculed and / or attacked, (depending on what area we live in),,So please for those on here that are participating in this topic, please ,when referring to the “closet”, please understand that the “closet” is the thing that crossdressers’ refer to when they are the stay at home types, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean how dare some of us go into
defining the “closet” as though some of us didn’t know. Hell, I think everyone on here that defines to us what a damn closet is,,,,is so insulting to our intellect., as to to define to us what the “closet” is. How dare these types.!! Just look back and you’ll see these people or types of people that go in to detail as to what a damn closet is. Check them out, it’s the ones that tell us that it is a small room that holds our clothes and shoes and other things. I know as well as many others on here what the OP was talking about when she referred about the “closet”. Are some of us so dumb that we lost what the OP was talking about when she referenced the “closet”, just to have someone here describe what a “closet” is? It ‘s like when some people say “jumping on the band wagon”. It’s not really wagon with wheels, how can some on here be so damn off topic as to define what a “closet” it’s ,like we do not know? Can we not get along here?????????? I’ve been on the internet before it was called the internet, and I have learned that you can be on any social site (sight), and on a beautiful; cloud free day, I could say(on the internet), “ The sky is blue”, and there will be people that will come back and say, oh hell no it’s not, it’s shades of grey, etc etc, etc. I used to think that as guys, we were ONE, then I learned we were not, then as a crossdresser I thought I had found my calling to a unique crossdresser community when I found this site, then found that we were just as diverse as the stars in the sky. I’m about love, honor, peace, dignity, morals, live and let live, brotherhood of man, sisterhood to sisters, family, friends, GOD ( Father of Jesus Christ), and yes, I even respect atheists , even though they argue their points of righteousness without ANY foundations to support their “opinions” about what they perceive as right and wrong. I’m not only somewhat ashamed or embarrassed that I’m CD, but just a little ashamed that I’m human. I understood the OP’s every word and thought; I was with her all the way with her every word. How could any of you be so disrespectful to this newcomer to this site? This question doesn’t apply to all, but how can some of you with a decent I.Q., come in here and define what a “closet” is? Like I or Anne didn’t have a clue? And why can some of you not ………….remember when you stayed at home fearing to go outdoors or from the “closet” Then those of you that go out all the time and say ,no one says anything to me., and then get on this OP Anne and crack on her for explaining why she prefers to stay in the “closet”. As a result of the many threads similar to this one, I feel so all alone again. It’s sad, so sad, it’s a sad, sad situation, and it’s getting more and more absurd, (Bernie Taupin). Do I belong here anymore or does Annie? I and we have a right to our opinions, there is no right and wrong. Let us all on here agree or disagree,,,,,but still maintain respect for eachother.

Love & respect..Tara Rose

[JulieK1980]

I happen to fall into the, "It's much better to come out of the closet" group. HOWEVER, I don't feel I know a single person well enough on here, or their situation well enough on here to have the audacity to tell THEM what to do. There is a name for that, it's called "Arrogance."

If someone was telling me how to live my life, I too, would tell them to go pound sand.

[ReineD]

I'll try to bring a different perspective to all of this.

There are different argument styles. Some forums (political or academic for example) can be quite confrontational. A stronger writing style, if well written, can actually score points. People well versed in argument can take a few barbs as well as dish them out. It's almost expected in some places.

CD.com isn't like that, obviously. We're a support forum even though we disagree on certain topics. So, I wonder if a newcomer who might be accustomed to a different forum culture, might not at first respond the way that he or she responds in different places? And then when confronted, might not see it as an invigorating exercise rather than realize he or she has hurt someone's feelings?

This may or may not be Joanna's case, I don't know. But, she is new. So, maybe after this thread we could see if she makes any overtures for friendship and if she does, then let bygones be bygones and start again on a new footing?

Just trying to be the peace maker here. :p

[Kathi Lake]

. . . and if she does, then let bygones be bygones and start again on a new footing?I'm in!

:)

Kathi

[Rianna Humble]

If you're doing something where you need to claim "sanctuary" just to live your life, perhaps you'd do better to do something else with your time, or, learn how to do what you're doing differently.

Joanna, How many people are using your account? One of the others, recently posted

All of us should support your pursuit of happiness with the same energy we pursue our own - maybe more, depending on how we're doing currently with our lives.

Without a healthy right to happiness, there won't be much chance of having any.

I'm not sure which of the two of you opened this account, but you should be aware that it is against forum rules to allow others to use your account.

[Pythos]

So I guess this is not the argument clinic.

"I'd like to have an argument please."

[Joanagreenleaf]

The moderator has suggested that I refrain from making certain responses to this thread, and I agree.

I refer you all to the new post I made yesterday concerning, "Living The Good Lie."
I think much of what is said in that article is more productive than most of the things being said here.

I have said, several times, all I can say about the OP's original postings. The long response by the OP about "Are you an attorney?" etc. will do nothing to handle the OPs personal issues at home - which I think need more of the OP's time than this forum does.

Time will tell how wise it was and is for the OP to write and expound on such topics as, "My closet is my sanctuary." Clearly it wasn't and isn't... I have serious doubts about the outcome of such a way of dealing with reality, and I have expressed them for the OP, and others, to consider.

This is a new forum to me, yet my impression so far is that it tends to promote and favor repetitive posts about, "I just got my first panties!" and, "Do you think she knows?" and, "Should I tell?" rather than encourage and support actual problem solving. Maybe the world needs that, maybe not.

In this case, the OP was "nearly" outed by a family friend, then spent several days defending the notion that they were/are entitled to stay in the closet they had just, or, nearly, been dragged out of...

Since the horse was already out of the barn, as we say here in Texas, arguing that the horse should have been left alone is a waste of of the OPs time and effort when it comes to the OP's personal situation. The "near" outing should serve as a notice to do something besides close and lock the empty barn's door.

And, there is no "next time" in the OPs case. Either the OP has been discovered, or, they now keenly understand they will be - and the price of not dealing with these known facts will keep going up... Fear... I can think of no other reason why the OP would drag this discussion out so long against myself and others, instead of work out a solution to a pressing problem at home.

The problem the OP has, as I understand things, is not ultimately the crossdressing, family, friends, or, "society." It is, as many other posts have shown, the deception being practiced by the OP against the OP, the OP's family, the OP's future, etc.

Frankly, I can see little for the OP to do other than either give up crossdressing, or, to change how crossdressing is managed in their life.

That's about all I can say about this particular thread and how it has gone - which is not a new topic or a new response in my life...

I've been discussing this sort of thing - usually brought about by some personal crisis like the OPs, for about thirty years now with any number of TS/TG/CD/Bi/Gay people - who would wish the world was different, but slowly have to understand that it isn't, and won't be, until they change.

Frankly, given the number of very wealthy and very successful gays and lesbians that most of us could list easily, starting with Ellen, Rosie, and Doogie, I am surprised that there is still so much "doom and gloom" about this sort of thing.

I do wonder, however, what will become of crossdressers in the next twenty years or so... From what I've seen of life, there will be less support or tolerance for CDs in the gay and lesbian community (among others), mostly because CDs bring too little of value to the gay and lesbian community, or, - because CDs are generally so tangled up in their own webs - to anyone else.

Really, this tempest in a teapot on this thread has gone nowhere because the closet is nowhere to go. Gays and lesbians are now openly getting jobs, buying houses, and getting married. CDs, already having most of that all along, are still doing very little to advance their own issues, so what use can they be to others?

I have been asked several times in this thread, "What are you doing here?"

Maybe not much more than serving as a target for those with, seriously, nothing better to do - and no place else to do it.

I have been asked the same question by people in the gay pride parades, several of which are coming up in my area again soon...

In the past, I have said:

"I'm here because anyone who crosses a certain line in life, winds up on this side of the line we're both now on."

I'm not changing my response to that question yet, but I'm thinking I may.

Crossdressing, as a subset of life, is beginning to look like an immature response to life.

I guess you can still learn something new every day... It may just depend on how much attention you pay to what goes on around you - not just what's in you.

[GingerLeigh]

So I guess this is not the argument clinic.

"I'd like to have an argument please."

"Yes it is!"
and
"No you wouldn't!"

[Sara Jessica]

Really, this tempest in a teapot on this thread has gone nowhere because the closet is nowhere to go. Gays and lesbians are now openly getting jobs, buying houses, and getting married. CDs, already having most of that all along, are still doing very little to advance their own issues, so what use can they be to others?

Since gender identity and sexual preference are distinct, I often wonder how the "T" became part of LGB. But when you think about it, it kind of makes sense for those who lean towards the TS side of things. Yet if one subscribes to a gender continuum theory, you bring CD under the same umbrella and this is where your entire premise loses momentum.

You see, a person who identifies as LGB has had to make strides simply to live their life as anyone else. This includes the right to love who they choose to be with in the context of a heterosexual couple. This might include open displays of affection (as in holding hands) without scorn or ridicule, and more importantly, the right to cohabitate in a loving relationship while enjoying the rights, privileges as those by married couples. By definition, the LGB struggle is one which must be a public one.

In contrast, the person who identifies as a CD'er may not have any need in the least bit to leave the comfort and safety of the closet. If so, what does that person have to gain by doing ANYTHING they aren't comfortable with? There is no rite of passage to advance along some imaginary TG hierarchy by going out into the world. If one does so, terrific. If not, they owe the rest of us nothing.

The risks to family, friends and career which you trivialize are real, just ask anyone who makes the momentous decision to transition. If one who identifies as a CD is unwilling to confront those risks, whether real or perceived, who are you to suggest that they are doing a disservice to anyone in our community? These people owe us nothing, yet at the same time we can offer love and support in a forum such as this that may lead a few to test the waters in the real world someday. The difference is that they'd be doing so on their own volition. Brow-beating won't encourage anyone.

[TGMarla]

Sara Jessica.....you pegged it sister! 100%.

And I really don't much care if I'm not of any "use to others" when I crossdress. I'm not in it to be of "use" to anyone.

Sheesh! The arrogance! :rolleyes:


And again we see the same tired argument about how successful gay people have become, and how little progress has been made in the crossdressing arena. This whole thing has nothing to do with gay people. Crossdressers, while lumped in with the GLB community have little in common with them, unless they happen to be gay crossdressers. Most of us are not, and even those that are often see little commonality between crossdressing and GLB issues.

Rosie and Ellen? Please! I can barely stomach either of them to begin with! And that has NOTHING to do with their gender orientation.

I rarely go out. Why? Well, I can begin with my wife. She knows I crossdress, but she's not real thrilled about it. Out of deference to her, I don't push the envelope too hard. I value my relationship with my wife above most other things in my life. Openly prancing around in public in a dress would do my marriage irreparable harm, harm that can be easily avoided. By staying home, I can have both a really good marriage, and still enjoy crossdressing. There is also my career. I have worked hard to build my own business, and it's entirely likely that most of my client base would find their computer support elsewhere should it become public that I like to crossdress. Like it or not, that is the fact. I'm not willing to become a "gender warrior" if it means I have to sacrifice all that I have worked to achieve. There is the respect of my friends and neighbors, too. While I may feel I'm doing nothing wrong, I don't care to be the instrument of their re-education. I could lose much, like the respect and friendship of those I know and love, while simply keeping my private life to myself leaves all of that intact. Does this make me a coward? Or does it make me wise to realize that I do not further my own happiness by beligerently throwing my crossdressing in the faces of everyone I know?

I like being at home. It is my sanctuary. It is my choice to stay there (usually) when I crossdress. I owe nothing to the GLB or the T communities, and I ask for nothing from them in return. I give them my respect, and only ask that they do the same for me.

Anne.....you rock, sister!

[Sarah Doepner]

Closets are not just for clothing. They are places where we store things we want to protect. For many of us that means crossdressing is being done only in the closet to protect ourselves and others from having to address the wider issues that just seem to grow naturally from that disclosure. I have my home as a closet and I go to Tri-Ess meetings, but that is just a closet on a string. I go out in Las Vegas, but that's just a bigger closet since I am still not sharing my crossdressing with my children and grandchildren, my old friends and other family members. They are comfortable with the image they have of me as Dave and I see no need to run them through the complexities of having to learn about Sarah. They all know I am supportive of the GLBTQ community and they will incur my wrath if they misspeak or pass a hasty judgment. They don't need to know I'm part of that community before they show respect, in fact it may be better for them to learn this way first, so if I do come out it will only reinforce the lessons already in place.

So, we strive to create our personal comfort level and place in society. I consider myself still in the closet even though I dress outside the house. That's my comfort level. When I'm outside the house at Tri-Ess or DLV in Vegas, I try to make sure I behave in a way that is consistent with gaining support for crossdressers in larger society. I don't desire to go out on a daily basis en femme and for much of what is important in my life it isn't needed or appropriate. My closet has many door and many rooms, but it fits me fine for now. I'll remodel when I'm ready, not when someone wants me to fit their image of what a crossdresser in 2011 ought to be. What everyone else does or doesn't do is their choice and I encourage everyone to evaluate your comfort levels, how you support other CDs and what constitutes your personal closet.

[DonniDarkness]

Next topic?....How about this...."Why do you hold angst for those who choose to be who they want to be"....or...."Why do you feel the need to push your ideals onto others who are happy being themselves"

Those should be your topics.

I feel you are missing the point because you cant see the light in your own heart. The OP was never concerned with your dilemma as an idealistic person, however you seem more than happy to push negativity towards others you dont agree with. Unhappiness is manifesting itself into these ideals of "Your whats wrong with Crossdressing" attitude. In fact the finger pointing is only making the true fact of the matter more clear. Saying that the closeted crossdresser is hurting the community of the open crossdresser is ludicrous, and you know it. If you want to support others here, then find a better way, then deferring your own negativity onto those who are happy with being who they choose to be.

Maybe a more positve approach to getting your points across is what we think you need to work on.................. otherwise you are hurting us all as crossdressers by being a negative part of our community.......

Be nice or be quiet,
-Donni-

[Pythos]

hmmm, someone brought up an intersesting angle for me.

I will be absolutely honest. When I was much younger, my family was out on a family outing. We visited the point Benitia lighthouse, and in the line to the structure, just ahead of us were two men holding hands, and talking to one another. At that time I had no idea what a "gay" was, but I could see these two were upsetting my dad, and to an extent, my mother. Not too far from those two men, was a man and a woman, also holding hands, and were acting much the same as the two men.

I noticed how my parents had no problems with these two, but how under his breath my dad was calling the two men "disgusting".

Well, when we got back in the car, he let loose. "How dare those two faggots do that in public in front of my son!!!" He yelled this to my mom, who just remained silent. "They don't need to do that outside their sick bedroom!! They should have been arrested" Then silly me piped up "but dad, there were a lady and man acting the same way" His response "THAT'S DIFFERENT!!!! Those two freaks should not be doing that outside, they should keep it in the closet, or better yet die!!!"

My memory is blurry of the actual conversation, mixed in is the kinda crap my dad spewed when he was angry about people he did not like, but the overall gist is there. He felt that those two men should keep things "in the closet" a term I did not understand at the time. I later learned that MANY gay couples keep their love "in the closet" and like some here felt no need to get out. I will need to do some research, but I think many of the arguments favoring being in the closet echo what is being stated here concerning us. I may be mistaken but the ones that were out of the closet viewed those that were deeply in the closet as something bad when it comes to gays gaining their freedoms.

This may be at least for me where I get the thought process that those in the closet don't help anyone. It is a bit harsh and I am backing off of that stance and am doing more thinking on the matter. Recalling this ugly piece of my history has opened more areas of thought when it comes to why I think the way I do.

Sadly, for a while, my dad's views rubbed off on me, and I felt gay couples should keep it in the closet (for approximately two years I thought this way)

[Mister Ed]

Tara-mxy,
your reply reflects my own opinion and...emotion about being told AGAIN that "a closet is a place to put clothes and not a state of mind." Circumstances in my life also prevent me being open about my cross dressing. So being told here; a place I come for advice and knowledge, that there is nothing to fear or that nothing will go wrong if I walk out of the house en-fem does not know my situation or even my emotional state.

Sara Jessica,
You have very clearly and politely posed some very good questions to the "brow-beaters" in this thread. Thank you.

Some of the commentary that has come out of some groups on here AND in other forums has angered me and sometimes even offended me. I haven't replied in these cases because I feel that just replying to tell people this is not a worthy contribution to the conversation. Yes, I am aware of the total hypocrisy of writing that (and my previous reply in this thread) but I would placate that hypocrisy by saying I was pointing out three well thought out posts, not just saying "I'm mad / offended" and walking away. In other cases, I do not post my point or view or report a comment because I respect the person's right to post.

This thread has brought this issue to a head so I feel it IS appropriate to voice the fact I am angry or offended at some people's comments about closeted CD's or even some one like myself; the (gasp!) lingerie fetishist. Many of us started this way and I do experiment with clothing and even makeup. The reason I don't CD as much as I can when home or haven't "progressed" on to even accepting "my desire to transition" is purely because those feeling aren't there. (These are actual comments I have seen, I could find them, with time, for people who want proof.) I feel some people forget they once belonged to one of the other groups here and start dispensing advice and opinions from their outlook, not really trying to asses the situation from the point of view of others involved.

If your opinion differs, that's fine. If you wish to enter into debate about something, please do. But bring some substance to the conversation.

[nikkijo]

i fail to see the point of cleaning up the pig pen if you dont also clean up the hogs in the pen.... that said, why put effort into your looks and your feelings if you dont go express that effort to others.... seems like a serious waste of time to me...

and its clothes.... do you truly understand how little people care about how others dress..... nobody has time anymore to complain about how someone else looks....

[JamieG]

I later learned that MANY gay couples keep their love "in the closet" and like some here felt no need to get out. I will need to do some research, but I think many of the arguments favoring being in the closet echo what is being stated here concerning us. I may be mistaken but the ones that were out of the closet viewed those that were deeply in the closet as something bad when it comes to gays gaining their freedoms.


Well said, Pythos! I have many friends who are gay, and actively support the LGBT organization at my workplace (even though I am "in the closet" about my CDing to almost all of them). In conversations about gay rights history, I learned about what you discussed. There was a conflict between those who were in the closet and those who were out. The ones in the closet wanted to be left alone and felt that those who were out were stirring up trouble and anti-gay sentiment, while the ones who were out were crying "We could use your support, we're getting killed out here." In the end, I'm sure most of the (formerly) closeted gay people appreciate what the movement has done for their lives today, but that doesn't make them "losers" for not participating. People who are willing to risk their necks for a righteous cause are heroes, but it isn't particularly heroic to condemn the people you're saving just because they are not as brave as you.

We are part of the LGBT umbrella because we are facing the same issues. Many people have the same hatred and misunderstanding of gender identity issues that they do of sexual identity issues, because for most people there is no difference. Violent bigots aren't going to treat a crossdresser vs. a transexual vs. a homosexual any differently: we're all targets. If the populace becomes educated about what it means to be gay and begins to see it as benign, that opens the door for a similar progression with respect to gender identity.

I think those of us who are in the closet should be thankful that we have people fighting for us: whether they are lobbying the government for protections or simply going out in the world and making a good impression. Those who are out shouldn't get their panties in a bunch because someone else isn't willing to take the same risks, or perhaps has their own personal issues to contend with. That person may be doing their own part in a quiet way by changing the hearts and minds of a few people close to them, or by speaking up when they hear someone speak of CDing negatively, or by donating to TG organizations.

I am gradually feeling the pull to be more open about my CDing, and to try to make a positive difference for others. However, I have a family and career to worry about and I must calculate my risks. Maybe, I am doing as much good by being the "straight married guy" that stands up for LGBT rights as I would be if I was the "nice guy who turned out to be a tranny" that stood up for LGBT rights. I should point out that this is my decision and my decision alone.

[Melody Moore]

I do not consider myself transgendered at all just because I enjoy to crossdress on occasion.
I consider you transgendered because you admit that you 'cross-dress' which is a transgendered activity.

FACT: The word transgender is an umbrella terminology that identifies those who are gender diverse or who
also might have a different gender identity to their birth sex. This includes cross-dressers or transvestites,
drag queens & kings gender queer, androgyny, & pre-op & post-op transsexual & intersexuals

So stop being in denial - You are transgender if you are a cross-dresser, no matter how part-time you might be.


trans=to go beyond
gender=social expectations associated with sex
Therefore, since we go beyond social expectations, we are all transgendered.

How do you draw that meaning from 'Transgender'?

Trans= to go from one place or thing to another
Gender= is your sexual identity as a male or female

Therefore 'Transgender' really means to go or change from one sexual identity to another

[Mister Ed]

I fail to see the point of cleaning up the pig pen if you don't also clean up the hogs in the pen.... that said, why put effort into your looks and your feelings if you don't go express that effort to others.... seems like a serious waste of time to me...

My efforts to create a feminine look are still experimental at best. I only own a few dresses and not a whole wardrobe; I have these primarily out of curiosity. Even with my best efforts I still just look like a bloke in a dress (as us Aussies would say). It is sometimes deflating to do all this work then spy myself in a mirror. But if I can't look feminine, I don't want to go out in the wider world - I'm a perfectionist that way.

Plus, I do enjoy wearing a good suit every now and again and I like my goatee beard too much to shave it off for an afternoon in a dress.



And its clothes.... do you truly understand how little people care about how others dress..... nobody has time anymore to complain about how someone else looks....
This is another comments that I was referring to in my earlier post. The kinds of comments do not take into account a person's location and it's cultural or legal precedences about gender issues. In some cases these comments are just regurgitated without any personal experience backing them up.

It's not just clothes is it? Even if you are post-op TG and look as feminine as any genetic female; the conservatives of the world will disagree with you at best and try to remove your human rights at worst. God forbid you are a man who just wears a dress with no efforts to portray a feminine image, you are confronting social norms and being non-conformist even more so.

While Australia, like the US is a largely open democracy in general, there are places you still wouldn't go out as a man dressed in women's clothes, no matter how feminine you look. And while we have laws to protect some one's rights (that are even stronger than US laws) the conservatives of the world will do their level headed best to make it difficult for you.

These are pretty general and anecdotal comments I know but the do happen, there are examples here. I my case even IF I could perfect a feminine image to a standard I'm happy with and even IF I was going out in a place open and accepting; there are aspects of my life that would be jeopardy if I did so. As it is one I can say is that I'll be living in a small regional city; we all know places like these are even more conservative. Please trust my on this one as even being here and being vocal could be taken into consideration. I am probably being more concerned about these issues than I have to be, but after being told that even the RISK and POTENTIAL of something happening is of great concern, you get a little twitchy.



I consider you transgendered because you admit that you 'cross-dress' which is a transgendered activity.

FACT: The word transgender is an umbrella terminology that identifies those who are gender diverse or who
also might have a different gender identity to their birth sex. This includes cross-dressers or transvestites,
drag queens & kings gender queer, androgyny, & pre-op & post-op transsexual & intersexuals

So stop being in denial - You are transgender if you are a cross-dresser, no matter how part-time you might be.

ANOTHER common statement that really annoys me. I apologise to you Melody but you happened to be the person who posted this while my buttons have been pushed. When people say they are CD and not TG, they are refering to themselves and their lifestyle. It's done as a form of short hand when describing your own personal situation when required. I describe my activities as cross dressing at best, please don't tell me I am in denial because I don't say I'm TG.

There is also talk here sometimes about how the human nature is to try an categorise everything. We then try to not do it to other people in case we cause offense. Why then write something like your post? It's rather condescending. We had just finished talking about people who throw the dictionary definition of closet around. They might be doing it as away to try to explain that not being more open and introverted is a just frame of mind. But there are better ways of going about it.

Why is this place called Crossdresseers.com and not Transgendered.com then?

[Amanda22]

I don't care what anyone calls me. TG, not-TG, CD, non-op TS, whatever. I don't understand why people are sensitive to labels. We're all just who we are, nothing more or less. To me, labels are for others, and I don't care what they do with them.

[Jorja]

I don't care what anyone calls me. TG, not-TG, CD, non-op TS, whatever. I don't understand why people are sensitive to labels. We're all just who we are, nothing more or less. To me, labels are for others, and I don't care what they do with them.

You just do not understand Amanda.

If they can't classify themselves and find a way to make themselves feel superior, then they wouldn't have anything to to fuss about.

[Sophie86]

FACT: The word transgender is an umbrella terminology that identifies those who are gender diverse or who
also might have a different gender identity to their birth sex.

I don't think you get to capitalize "fact" like that when talking about something as changeable and subject to common usage as the definitions of words. :)


Therefore 'Transgender' really means to go or change from one sexual identity to another

A transsexual is someone who has felt all her life that she is in the wrong body, and therefore seeks to become the other sex. People hear transgender, and they interpret it the same way: Someone who feels that they should be the opposite gender and wants to live that way full-time. You can tell them all you want to that some group of doctors out there decided that "transgender" would be an umbrella term for all people who cross or touch the gender divide, but it's a waste of your time. Popular usage is against you. Common sense is also against you, because you're lumping a group of people together according to their attitudes about their gender when those attitudes are actually all over the map.

[busker]

The moderator has suggested that I refrain from making certain responses to this thread, and I agree.

I refer you all to the new post I made yesterday concerning, "Living The Good Lie."
I think much of what is said in that article is more productive than most of the things being said here.

I have said, several times, all I can say about the OP's original postings. The long response by the OP about "Are you an attorney?" etc. will do nothing to handle the OPs personal issues at home - which I think need more of the OP's time than this forum does.

Time will tell how wise it was and is for the OP to write and expound on such topics as, "My closet is my sanctuary." Clearly it wasn't and isn't... I have serious doubts about the outcome of such a way of dealing with reality, and I have expressed them for the OP, and others, to consider.

This is a new forum to me, yet my impression so far is that it tends to promote and favor repetitive posts about, "I just got my first panties!" and, "Do you think she knows?" and, "Shouldo I tell?" rather than encourage and support actual problem solving. Maybe the world needs that, maybe not. Well, this thread clearly indicates that more than just "panty color" is on the minds of at least some people. What exactly do you perceive as "problems" that we as CDs have? For those of us in the closet, the "problem" is going out, and we have made it clear that we are not about to do that. you seem to have the problem with our decision.

In this case, the OP was "nearly" outed by a family friend, then spent several days defending the notion that they were/are entitled to stay in the closet they had just, or, nearly, been dragged out of...

Since the horse was already out of the barn, as we say here in Texas, arguing that the horse should have been left alone is a waste of of the OPs time and effort when it comes to the OP's personal situation. The "near" outing should serve as a notice to do something besides close and lock the empty barn's door.

And, there is no "next time" in the OPs case. Either the OP has been discovered, or, they now keenly understand they will be - and the price of not dealing with these known facts will keep going up... Fear... I can think of no other reason why the OP would drag this discussion out so long against myself and others, instead of work out a solution to a pressing problem at home.

The problem the OP has, as I understand things, is not ultimately the crossdressing, family, friends, or, "society." It is, as many other posts have shown, the deception being practiced by the OP against the OP, the OP's family, the OP's future, etc.

Frankly, I can see little for the OP to do other than either give up crossdressing, or, to change how crossdressing is managed in their life.

That's about all I can say about this particular thread and how it has gone - which is not a new topic or a new response in my life...

I've been discussing this sort of thing - usually brought about by some personal crisis like the OPs, for about thirty years now with any number of TS/TG/CD/Bi/Gay people - who would wish the world was different, but slowly have to understand that it isn't, and won't be, until they change.

Frankly, given the number of very wealthy and very successful gays and lesbians that most of us could list easily, starting with Ellen, Rosie, and Doogie, I am surprised that there is still so much "doom and gloom" about this sort of thing. I do believe ELLEN paid heavily for outing herself and while she is working now, it hasn't always been the case. I think there a lot of hypocrites in the entertainment business. gays have been in movies , for example, from the beginning, yet they seem to not want it known to the general public and those who are outed pay for their lifestyle heavily though Valentino seems to have weathered the scorn remarkably well.

I do wonder, however, what will become of crossdressers in the next twenty years or so probably not much becasue most of us , i think, aren't going around trying to change the world. It sometimes seems that there are many on this forum who are out and about, but I'll bet that those who do represent just a very small percent. There is a kind of "electronic peer pressure" where members are made to feel that they "should" be out and about. ... From what I've seen of life, there will be less support or tolerance for CDs in the gay and lesbian community (among others), mostly because CDs bring too little of value please clarify what you mean by value. we are all just human beings and in that regard are equal.to the gay and lesbian community, or, - because CDs are generally so tangled up in their own webs - to anyone else. The issues that gays and lesbians have are entirely different from the issues CDs have. It could very well be that because of the public view of gays and lesbians that Cds have actually more problems then might have if they were not seen as part of the same group.

Really, this tempest in a teapot on this thread has gone nowhere because the closet is nowhere to go. SOME Gays and lesbians are now openly getting jobs, buying houses banks to my knowledge do not as about sexual preferences, and getting marrie in a few places and definitely NOT FRANCE.. CDs, already having most of that all along, are still doing very little to advance their own issues which are?, so what use can they be to others? why are we supposed to be of use to anyone else? we are not monopoly pieces, nor do we intentionally do battle for causes not our own. I served my country in the Army, that was all the battle I needed. In theory, I fought for what our Constitution gives to all citizens. I shouldn't actually have to fight to wear a skirt. All men (and women) are EQUAL under the law, unless , of course, you are a Republican legislator, then the Constitution doesn't mean anything for the common "man", and only the rich are equal. Life , Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness may be the greatest problem that we all have because every time we turn around, we keep having it denied us.

I have been asked several times in this thread, "What are you doing here?"

Maybe not much more than serving as a target for those with, seriously, nothing better to do - and no place else to do it. You could always try another forum where your ideas might be more welcome, if you don't like our topics of discussion.



I have been asked the same question by people in the gay pride parades, several of which are coming up in my area again soon...

In the past, I have said:

"I'm here because anyone who crosses a certain line in life, winds up on this side of the line we're both now on."

I'm not changing my response to that question yet, but I'm thinking I may.

Crossdressing, as a subset of life, is beginning to look like an immature response to life.

I guess you can still learn something new every day... It may just depend on how much attention you pay to what goes on around you - not just what's in you.
Just give those of us a little more respect for our decisions to be where we want to be. Thanks

[Avana]

mostly @melody moore - transgender is indeed often used as an umbrella term, but not all crosssdressers identify as transgender. and certainly gender is a more complex entity than simply having fun with clothing or playing a role. furthermore, gender identity (being an identity) is by definition subject to a person's own whims and feelings. it's up to him or her to identify as transgender or not, not any third party or real or imagined authority.

i also find it rather troubling that you try to qualify your arguments with declarations like 'FACT', when what we are talking about is a totally subjective, personal, identity-based experienced that is not in any way homogenous in our community.

[Rianna Humble]

A transsexual is someone who has felt all her life that she is in the wrong body, and therefore seeks to become the other sex. People hear transgender, and they interpret it the same way: Someone who feels that they should be the opposite gender and wants to live that way full-time.

Everyone to whom I have spoken about Transgender issues outside of the LGBT community has always said me in one way or another "I'm not familiar with that term, are Transsexuals also Transgender?" so my experience certainly does not bear out your assertion.

Within the LGBT community, I have found other misundertsandings about the T word, but I have not met with your uniform assumption that Transgender = Transsexual.

In fact, the only place that I have found the term to be so widely mis-used is amongst the people on this forum.

[Tamara Croft]

ANOTHER common statement that really annoys me. I apologise to you Melody but you happened to be the person who posted this while my buttons have been pushed. When people say they are CD and not TG, they are refering to themselves and their lifestyle. Look on here and the term TG will be used in a more general way to describe mainly post-op people living there entire life as the gender they feel suits them.

No it's not, TG is the umbrella term used on this board for all, TS describes what you are referring to, although the majority never go that far. TG - transgendered, TS - transsexual...


Why is this place called Crossdresseers.com and not Transgendered.com then?

Because someone else owns that domain name, do you know what domain names are? We can't just pull any name out of our hats, these domains have to be purchased.

However, the primary reason it was called crossdressers.com was because it was initially set up for CD's, their family and friends, but over the last 7 or so years it's been running, it has expanded to include the whole transgendered spectrum.

Administrator posting now: -

One more thing, please tone it down in this thread, there is simply no need for arguing and bitching. This is a damn good thread and it would be a shame to lock it up... ygm?

[tammi ogles]

just recently joined. from reading through this you may never see this post, but i am seeking support. may never come out of the closet for the same reasons or rational, but i do wish we lived in a society that accepted men in skirts and heel!

[TinaMc]

I'm also closeted (except to my wife), and I'd like to be more out about my CDing, but I'm very apprehensive. I feel some shame about the CDing, which I'm trying to work on. But really, isn't that what being in the closet is mostly about, being ashamed of what you are hiding? I guess the issue is that the OP seems to be rationalising their closeted existence in a way that tries to spin it to something that it really isn't. I think Joanna was probably just trying to bring the OP down a notch and see it in a way that isn't so self serving. The Loserville comment may have been harsh, but looking at the thread it seems to have been borne more out out of frustration than anything else.

Politically, well I think we'd all agree that we'd like to be able to present ourselves however we want to in public with no fear of retribution in the form of violence, workplace discrimination, social discrimination, etc etc. Then there'd be no need for a closet. But that won't be achieved without changing the public's perception on the issue. Staying in the closet doesn't help this cause at all, and as Pythos has said has the potential to make it worse, in the case of being outed involuntarily.

Also, I tend to feel that there's something quite inauthentic in what I'm doing, which doesn't exactly fill me with pride. It's like I get to have my cake (enjoying the privileges that go along with being a white middle class male) and eat it too (getting to express my trans nature privately, with little/no consequence). Like it or not, living authentically is pretty important in terms of psychological wellbeing, etc.

Gotta just get over my fear and get out there, I'm well conflicted here ;)...

[Melody Moore]

ANOTHER common statement that really annoys me. I apologise to you Melody but you happened to be the person who posted this while my buttons have been pushed. When people say they are CD and not TG, they are refering to themselves and their lifestyle. Look on here and the term TG will be used in a more general way to describe mainly post-op people living there entire life as the gender they feel suits them. It's done as a form of short hand when describing your own personal situation when required. This more general use is why we have debates about it's use and the use of the term transsexual. I describe my activities as cross dressing at best, please don't tell me I am in denial because I don't say I'm TG.

There is also talk here sometimes about how the human nature is to try an categorise everything. We then try to not do it to other people in case we cause offense. Why then write something like your post? It's rather condescending. We had just finished talking about people who throw the dictionary definition of closet around. They might be doing it as away to try to explain that not being more open and introverted is a just frame of mind. But there are better ways of going about it.

Why is this place called Crossdresseers.com and not Transgendered.com then?
What really annoys me the most on this website is when someone
tries to bore me out & they are so ignorant of the real facts themselves.

You dear have much to learn about the terminologies used in the transgendered community. And if you
didn't know I am a voluntary community educator/liaison officer for transgender awareness support &
acceptance in my local community. So I would have to know the proper terminologies now for when I am
talking to other people or I would look pretty stupid now if I was wrong about these things wouldn't I ? :heehee:


A transsexual is someone who has felt all her life that she is in the wrong body, and therefore seeks to become the other sex. People hear transgender, and they interpret it the same way: Someone who feels that they should be the opposite gender and wants to live that way full-time. You can tell them all you want to that some group of doctors out there decided that "transgender" would be an umbrella term for all people who cross or touch the gender divide, but it's a waste of your time. Popular usage is against you. Common sense is also against you, because you're lumping a group of people together according to their attitudes about their gender when those attitudes are actually all over the map.
Well dear, all these people who have that misinterpretation of the word transgender would all be wrong. :daydreaming::heehee:

The term transsexual is what defines those who feel they have been born or feel trapped in the
wrong bodies. Transgender & Transsexual are two different words with completely different meanings.

It appears to me that these cross-dressers that misunderstand the true meaning of the word 'transgender' who don't
want to be tarred with the same brush as a transsexual, so this is why they reject this terminology. But the fact is a
cross-dresser, transvestite or drag queen is a transgendered person whether they are in the closet or not.

And as Rianna said the only place that I have found the term to be so widely mis-used is amongst the people on this forum.

[Kelsy]

Anne, Live your life the way you see fit! There is tons of great people, info and support here. Take what you
need and leave the rest. contribute and help when you can. Above all ignore the bores that know everything
and try to school you!

[Mister Ed]

No it's not, TG is the umbrella term used on this board for all, TS describes what you are referring to, although the majority never go that far. TG - transgendered, TS - transsexual...

I am aware that they are different terms but as other people have mentioned they have been used interchangeably both here and in the wider world. While it maybe incorrect to do so, I feel I should use common language and terminology so everyone can understand. I will go back and correct my earlier definition.



...Because someone else owns that domain name, do you know what domain names are? We can't just pull any name out of our hats, these domains have to be purchased...
This question was rhetorical. I apologise for the tone, more on this at the end of this post. My final one in this thread.


What really annoys me the most on this website is when someone
tries to bore me out & they are so ignorant of the real facts themselves.

I am far from ignorant, I just chose to use the terms as the wider world does. Myself and other members who passed comment are more offended by the use of a dictionary quote as a rebuttal to an argument and being told we are in denial or that being private with my activities is wrong. Please provide further comment or even a link to a previous thread where ignorant people like me (if I'm going to be labeled as such) CAN get a clearer picture of what we should say to be understood properly.



You dear have much to learn about the terminologies used in the transgendered community. And if you
didn't know I am a voluntary community educator/liaison officer for transgender awareness support &
acceptance in my local community. So I would have to know the proper terminologies now for when I am
talking to other people or I would look pretty stupid now if I was wrong about these things wouldn't I ? :heehee:

It's great that you promote the activities of people like us in your community. Which "other people" are you talking about? Professional councilors, psychiatric therapists or members of the public? If they are professionals, fine you must use the terminologies correctly.



Well dear, all these people who have that misinterpretation of the word transgender would all be wrong. :daydreaming::heehee:

The term transsexual is what defines those who feel they have been born or feel trapped in the
wrong bodies. Transgender & Transsexual are two different words with completely different meanings.

They are, but the general public wouldn't know that. How many times do you have to educate people of this fact in your role as liaison?

I am in no way being sarcastic despite my tone, I really would like to know.

Language like all of human nature is a fluid thing; we don't correct every one who says they "Hoover" the floor instead of "Vacuum". We accept that it's a term and if we don't understand we ask for clarification.



It appears to me that these cross-dressers that misunderstand the true meaning of the word 'transgender' who don't
want to be tarred with the same brush as a transsexual, so this is why they reject this terminology. But the fact is a
cross-dresser, transvestite or drag queen is a transgendered person whether they are in the closet or not.

And as Rianna said the only place that I have found the term to be so widely mis-used is amongst the people on this forum.

I have no issue with being "tarred" with the same brush, as it were, with a TS person. But if the common vernacular is not technically correct and I have no desire to represent an entire female self to the rest of the world: I wish to correct some one about my intentions and I wish to do so by using one word I feel is appropriate.

On another forum (NOT CD/TG/Whatever related), I've spoken to a post-op TS girl (not a member here) who had no clue about which term is which. If some one who has completed every process discussed here doesn't know the vernacular; what hope does the rest of the world have? (another rhetorical question)

Now, my reasons for appearing to be so confrontational:
I feel, just like Anne does, that closeted crossdressers are loosing their voice on this site and are even being talked down. I accept that people people here started out crossdressing, then found they desired to progress further into Transgenderism (see - used it correctly). I would like people to accept my desire to keep my cross dressing as a private pastime. There are times I think about going out en-fem or coming out to friends. Maybe one day I will be confident enough to do so. I do go out to retail shops occasionally, but never dressed and only if I feel comfortable with the situation. In general, this part of my life (as well as my interest in Latex gear) remains "covert" as it were.

As I mentioned earlier on, I am moving to a small regional city to start a new career. First off, I will be focused on nothing but my job for the foreseeable future so I can learn everything. I'm starting from scratch so I requires my full attention. Once that's done, I'll still be living in a small regional city, no matter where in the western world you live, surely you accept these places are more conservative.

Further to that, there are forces in my life that I can't go into here, that mean coming out could be detrimental . Please trust me on this, they are documented but just cannot be mentioned in a public forum.

So, I am acting out because this will be my only point of communication for the immediate future. You can understand my desire not to loose my voice here.

If I have offended anyone with my posts I sincerely apologise.

Ed, out.

[nikkijo]

This is another comments that I was referring to in my earlier post. The kinds of comments do not take into account a person's location and it's cultural or legal precedences about gender issues. In some cases these comments are just regurgitated without any personal experience backing them up.



obviously u werent paying attention... I dont hide who i am, I dont own any guys clothes.. been known to wear what ever i damn well please, from a dress to a bikini, to a thong and pasties. it relly doesnt matter.. so excuseme if your mistaken about your above comment, i MAY present as a guy dressed in girls clothes... to full girl depending on the effort placed on any given day... im a business owner, reasonably sucessfull one at that. no business debts... own home, and vehicles. nd guess what... nobody gives 2 $hits bout how i look... sure i get a few questions but those are very few and far between, nd none are hostile, but i dont present as a pushover pussy either. even when i pass for a girl, im not a prissy little thing at 6'3" and 200 lbs... so most people let things go by s huh thts different. ive been out for 3 years 24/7 the only guys stuff i even claim to own is 2 collectable jackets, 1 from the soviet army, and the other from lithuanian navy. both from pre cold war/ WW2... eras. so dont you EVER say i regurgitate unfactual crap... I live this EVERY DAY... so mr ed.. your dumb.. nd welcome to loserville... you need to stay there untill your smart enough to realize some of us here know what the world looks like and normal people dont give 2 shits what we look like

[sara.s]

Quoting from Oxforddixtionary:rulez:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/transvestite?region=us


Transgender: denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.


Transsexual: a person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex.
a person who has undergone treatment in order to acquire the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.


Transvestite: a person, typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes appropriate to the opposite sex.

I hope this stops the definition wars :uzi:.

[Nigella]

MODERATOR POSTING HERE

Members have been politely asked to keep the tone civil in this thread, Some of you obviously have not got the message, and yet again a good thread has gone downhill because some members prefer to air their dirty washing in public.

I would like to appologise to the OP but too much time is spent on keeping this thread civil and I am now closing it.