Will the CD desire ever evolve?

[Maiko Newhalf]

I was reading JamieG's post in the "Loved Ones" section (the following link) and it got me thinking.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?151800-The-quot-Do-you-want-to-transition-quot-question

Since that thread is closed I'd like to start another one here so I can hear your thoughts. I'm sure almost every TG have spent a lot of time thinking the eternal question of "where do I fall on the TG spectrum?". My understanding is that CDs generally like to appear feminine and switch back and forth between male and female roles but they don't want to be women forever. However, since people change and develop themselves, I'm wondering will the design for CDing ever elvolve? Is there a clear bondary between CD and TS? Or it's a boundary for each individual to draw?

I guess there's no scientific gauge to measure one's desire on something. But I heard CD people saying that they'd like to try to be a woman if the process is easy and reversable. While that's not possible, it sounds reasonable to me to gauge one's TG desire by how much price they are willing to pay to appear feminine. I tried it on myself and here's what I'm thinking now:

Being slim, shaving/epilating regularly, voice training, learning make-up etc.: certainly
Losing muscle to appear more feminine: maybe but rather reluctant
HRT: a remote possibility only if I'm single and understand the side effects
Breast Augmentation: No
SRS: No way

From that, I think I'm catergorized as a CD for sure. But the biggest uncertainty (also my biggest fear) is that I don't what's going to happen in the future. Will I get lost in the "pink fog"? Will I be pushing my limitations futher as I get better and more confortable with my CDing?

Any thoughts?

[Kate Simmons]

It really depends on the person. Some just enjoy the "rollar coaster" ride that seems to go on forever, others use CDing as a vehicle to begin an entirely different journey and all journeys are definately not the same.:)

[Maiko Newhalf]

Another way I can think of to gauge this is the "boy to girl ratio". I'd say my brain is 75% boy because I like cars, engineering, math, sci-fi, although I'm not a big sport fan. However personablity-wise, I'm 50-50 between boy and girl as a Gemini. :)

Does that makes me a more reliable CD?

[Cullaby]

I don't really consider myself very transgendered at all. I don't even like being referred to by feminine pronouns when dressed (although I am flattered if people use them. :) ) Honestly I can't see myself changing in the future in that regard. If anything, starting my crossdressing hobby made me feel like more of a 'real man' (whatever that means,) because it was a case of living my own life and being honest with myself instead of cowardly hiding away from desires that hurt nobody. I like to think thats what the stoic male role-model figures of yore would do in my situation anyway.

So theres no reason why a CD would inevitably head down the road to permanent womanhood.

Obviously, this is just me and my particularly weird brain's rationalisations talking and everyone is different. :)

[Karren H]

Personally I don not think about where I fit in at all... Or why... Or what my label is... Seems like wasted energy because if I did know where I fit in or why, it wouldn't change a thing in my life going forward... I would still love to do what I have to do... I'd rather be doing something else than spending time pursuing answers to questions that don't have any material effect on me. ... And as I get older... Time becomes more valuable to me..

Ohh and the time I do have I'd rather be playing more ice hockey!! Less thinking... More hitting!! Lol.

[Stephanie Miller]

I personally don't think it's just the uncertainty of it all. Although the future does indeed play a part. There are, to me, many other factors than just pigeonholing oneself as a CD's, TS's etc.. Sure, there are those that confront, or are aware of, their feeling and or mindsets early on. There are some of us that just didn't come to terms with ourselves until too much water had already crossed under the bridge. (Everyone determines their own amount of water.)
There are some that feel the safety, feelings or dynamic family structure is such that they stay in CD mode rather than fully transition. They wear female attire or change their body as much as possible, while still staying below their self imposed radar. It's not that they aren't TS. There are others that have fully transitioned and feel they made a grave error and truly are just CD's. Back to as much of a male mode as is possible they go.
I think I understand what your question is eluding to, and if I'm correct then - no, there will never be a clear and precise delineation. But I do think there is a definite delineation between physical CD, TS vs. mental CD, TS. At least in my mind.

[Jane G]

Sea, just take it day by day and enjoy your life and whatever it throws at you. Unless you feel the need to transition then there is no need to have a long term plan. More important to plan stuff like a good solid pension. Now I sound realy old.

[Rianna Humble]

But the biggest uncertainty (also my biggest fear) is that I don't what's going to happen in the future. Will I get lost in the "pink fog"? Will I be pushing my limitations futher as I get better and more confortable with my CDing?

:eek: Someone who doesn't know in advance with absolute certainty what will happen every second of the rest of their life! :eek:

Unfortunately, neither do the rest of us either. Will you get lost in The Pink Fog? Perhaps, but then again, perhaps you will remember to take your moral compass with you into the fog.


Is there a clear boundary between CD and TS? Or it's a boundary for each individual to draw?

I believe that there is a clear boundary, but that some people wander over it and some cannot bring themselves to admit that they belong on the other side. For over 4 decades I was in that last group. I have known since I was a child that I am not male despite what my anatomy might suggest, yet until less than 2 years ago, I could not accept that that meant I need to transition so I told myself that I was just "a bloke in a skirt", your common or garden variety of CD. I was only lying to myself because even as I said it, I knew that it was not true.

Cullaby, rightly said
there's no reason why a CD would inevitably head down the road to permanent womanhood.

Stephanie has posited that there are some CD's who go too far then regret it when it is too late, and I am sure that during my life time, there will have been one or two. Fortunately the Standards of Care for transgender patients are designed to let someone find out whether they are ready and able to live the rest of their life as the opposite gender to their natal sex and they usually work remarkably well.

You already seem to know that you are not TS, so why not relax and enjoy your cross-dressing and find out where your journey will take you?

[sissystephanie]

As I have said before, I have been a crossdresser longer than many of you have been alive. I wiil say that I have only seen one evolvement in crossdressing in all that time. Yes, there has been some changes in definitions used in describing crossdressing, but mostly by people who don't really know what they are talking about.

The evolvement that I am talking about is the fashions that we, as CD's, can now wear!! When I started dressing fully enfemme, back in the very late 1940's, there was not much fashion available. At least not me!! Nowadays I can buy almost anything I want to wear, that is if I can afford it!! Probably not the right evolvement, but it works for me!!

[sallyissuper]

I'm a CD, but have wondered what it would be like to be a young real genetic woman for 30 days and go back. But that just would not happen.

[Maiko Newhalf]

This thread is mainly inspired by Jamie's post on the "Do you want to transistion?" question. The question doesn't really bother me that much. But if the questions is from my SO, you see, when she ask this what she's looking for is reassurance in my opinion. Well, I'm truly not sure that I can give an honest answer that's better then Jamie's. That's kind of what bothers me. I do like Stephanie's point though:


There are some that feel the safety, feelings or dynamic family structure is such that they stay in CD mode rather than fully transition. They wear female attire or change their body as much as possible, while still staying below their self imposed radar.

[5150 Girl]

I don't know if this ansers the question or not, but, If I could take a pill, and wake up in the a full fledge woman, and the process were irreversable, Yes I would definately do it! I despise men from the floor up!

[Nikki A.]

If you continue dressing you will of course become more comfortable with it. And yes you will cross boundaries that you now say you won't. That being said, only you can decide how far you want or need to go.
Ten years ago I would never have considered going out dressed. Now I do it on an almost weekly basis and not just TG friendly places. However this is as far as I think I want to go, but down the road I may draw another line in the sand.

[Fab Karen]

The answer is : not necessarily. Over time, SOME Cd's may realize that actually they have TS feelings and want to go part or all of the way to their body meeting how they feel inside. There is no unified state of being either a CD or even TS. People are individuals.

[PretzelGirl]

I agree with Karen. I think that finding ourselves is an ongoing process. It is that way for everything in our lives, so why wouldn't it be true for something like this which can be confusing and where it can sometimes be hard to come to terms with portions of it.

[KrystalA]

If the processes of actually becoming female were 'easy and reversible' I'd be the first in line to have it done.

[Danni Renee]

Sea, I understand your feelings on this, especially when it involves your SO. My SO is very supportive and I have told her everything. She knows that if I had my way I would be a woman. That is not to say I will transition - there is more to it then that. As I told her in my case, no surgery or drugs can change what my DNA is no matter how wrong it feels in my heart. Fortunately she is very understanding and is working with me as I go through this process of discovering myself.

When I first came out to her, I thought I was just a CD. As I have read and researched and talked and finally became honest with myself I know there is much more to it then that. I would not say I got lost in the pink fog as much as I stopped repressing myself and finally listened to what my mind and heart were telling me. I did not evolve but I started to understand.

November I was in the closet
December I came out to my SO and said all I would ever do is dress in private
January I shaved all my body hair
February I pierced my navel
March I joined the forum and finally found I am not alone
April I went to the movies wearing almost all female clothes; redecorated my bedroom in pink
May I dedicated half my closet and dresser to female clothes (instead of hiding them in boxes)

I consider all of this part of the journey. I certainly am pushing my limits (or is it exploring the new me) and the more I push the more comfortable I become.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The short answer is definitely maybe

In my experience, one of the most difficult part of cd's and relationships, is that your internal sense of yourself is likely to change over time. My transition was delayed by many years of self dialogue that was an out and out lie..

This tuesday I am going to dinner with a dear friend that is in her 40's, crossdressed for her whole life, identified as a crossdresser and now wants to talk to me about the idea of transition and finding the right therapist ...she says she had a realization that hit her after years of denial (which sounded very similar to my experience)..

Another friend has gone from the closet, to casual weekend party dressing to coming home, shaving, and living the night as "herself", and the relationship with her wife is very strained now..i wonder if i'm going to get another request to discuss things..

my view is skewed because of my own nature, but i have seen it over and over again.

[Maiko Newhalf]

What a journey! It's so nice that your SO is understanding.



November I was in the closet
December I came out to my SO and said all I would ever do is dress in private
January I shaved all my body hair
February I pierced my navel
March I joined the forum and finally found I am not alone
April I went to the movies wearing almost all female clothes; redecorated my bedroom in pink
May I dedicated half my closet and dresser to female clothes (instead of hiding them in boxes)

[Gillian Gigs]

I see it like a pendulum on a clock. Sometimes it is on the left side, sometimes it is on the right side. Everyone has to find the comfort zone, and get the most out of it. I do not think that anyone is 100% male or female, many choose to suppress one of the sides. I think that is why some men ae so homophobic, they are trying to suppress something that they do not understand and it scares them.

[Maiko Newhalf]

I'm wondering if a professional psychiatrist is helpful in this case. I just came out of closet recently and havn't given my desire and identity enough thought. If I'm more than a CD, I'd like to know understand it as soon as possible, although I really don't know what to do...

Should despising one's male body be the necessary condition of being a TS? I remember at very young age (pre-puberty) ocassionally wondering whether I was born as a female and somehow get transitioned to a male though... It's not a constant battle in my head or something, just kind of a curious thought.


my view is skewed because of my own nature, but i have seen it over and over again.

It's true, Gillian. My wife and I talked about it. Interestingly I always find her personality being more male than female, which she agrees too. Well, does that make us gay couple essentially? LOL.

It seems to me that a lots of people's personality is more like their opposite sex but they never question their identities.


I do not think that anyone is 100% male or female, many choose to suppress one of the sides.

[Fab Karen]

Should despising one's male body be the necessary condition of being a TS?
Not all TS people get SRS, even if they can afford it.

[t-girlxsophie]

Looks like I am in the minority here.I have travelled a long way from the early years,and I have evolved as much as I am going to I am happy with my level of dressing and where I fit in,(and about who I am),with absolutely no desire to go down the route of Transitioning.My wife and I have had that discussion.I admire those that do take that Journey,but Im happy with my lot

Sophie

[Sara82]

I feel I'm in the same boat as you Sea. While I don't despise my male body(in fact i love my body and my androgynous features), however I would give anything to spend the majority of my time presenting female, if I could get overall acceptance from friends, family, co-workers, and society in general. So the only thing holding me back is societal constraints. I guess the how strong the desire to cross that gender line, and how much stress, anxiety, depression,etc, it might cause someone, is what separates those who transition and those who don't.

While my goal has always been to feminize my body as much as possible, I still have to put up some type of male facade to avoid fear of rejection. (sometimes consciously an effort to fit in). What scares me is that this is not a healthy way to live one's live, and at some point this will all come crashing down. Will I evolve at this point? Probably.. The outcome?? too hard to tell..

What I have a hard time processing in my own head: "Is this a selfish addiction, or am I truly discovering myself and setting myself free to live a happier life". I know I'm not very happy now, but even if I was single and had all the freedom I wanted, would I still take that step and live as a woman? I certainly fantasize about it, i think about running away to another city, where no one knows me, and living as saya. Fear of being alone and no one to accept me are things that hold me back.

I dont care for labels either, but I dont think despising one's body is a necessary condition to transition to the opposite gender.

[Tina B.]

We are all different of course, I started dressing over 60 years ago, and after I retired I find myself wanting to dress more and more all of the time, but I still know who I am, and what I am, and that's just a dude in a dress, I've never given serious thought to changing sides, sure a fleeting thought, but that's all. I would have been happy born as a girl, I would have been happy as a guy, with no thoughts of crossdressing, but that's just not who I am. I'm a guy that has a over whelming need to wear female clothing, if I don't give in to that need I find myself to be a very miserable person, and depressed, angry and mean, I just don't like him. wearing womens clothes, wigs and make up make me feel whole, but after a week or so, I'm ready to grab a pair of jeans, and a white tee shirt, and throw away the razor and go caveman for a while. It's always been that way. So after 60 years I've always known what I am, and nothing has really changed all that much except I dress more often than when I was young and busy, and I have a lot mpre clothes now.
Tina B.

[kimdl93]

Another way I can think of to gauge this is the "boy to girl ratio". I'd say my brain is 75% boy because I like cars, engineering, math, sci-fi, although I'm not a big sport fan. However personablity-wise, I'm 50-50 between boy and girl as a Gemini. :)

Does that makes me a more reliable CD?

Honestly, I don't think that the items you mention are any more exclusively male than shopping is female. Society has traditionally pushed men one way and women another, but even that is changing. Today more than 1/2 of all medicine and law students are women. But to your initial question, yes, CDers evolve. We don't all start life from the same point, and we don't end up in the same place. What I sought from CDing 20 years ago is different from what I seek today. Then, I underdressed and was besieged by fear of discovery and guilt. Today, I can dress publically and accept that most people who see me as a cross dresser.

[SweetIonis]

However, since people change and develop themselves, I'm wondering will the design for CDing ever elvolve? Is there a clear bondary between CD and TS? Or it's a boundary for each individual to draw?

Any thoughts?

I explored this concept and I believe that it's possible for a CD to become a TS.

[Nolwenn Elizabeth]

I'd be up for switching to female only if I could be biologically female and I could switch back when I wanted. Of course that isn't realistic. IRL, I only want to CD. And only privately. Someday, I may want to go out dressed up but that would be as far as I would ever go personally. I have no interest in TG-ing. (Is that a word?) :doh:

[flatlander_48]

Another way I can think of to gauge this is the "boy to girl ratio". I'd say my brain is 75% boy because I like cars, engineering, math, sci-fi, although I'm not a big sport fan. However personablity-wise, I'm 50-50 between boy and girl as a Gemini. :)

Does that makes me a more reliable CD?

Actually that is fairly close to how I think of myself. The only difference would be that I'm a big motorsports fan. Long before I started to crossdress, I noticed that my approach to solving engineering and design problems was much more intuitive than based in hard facts. The intuitive part worked to narrow the possibilities before the logic and structure took over. Going from memory, but in the Meyers-Briggs Personality Indicators, there is a section that evaluates Introvert vs. Extrovert. Most engineers come out heavily biased toward Introvert. I scored almost dead center. Very uncharacteristic and perhaps related to having an identifiable female side.

I also agree that it would be unlikely for me to want to transition as I do like the male side quite a lot. Some things that go unquestioned as a male would cause a reaction as a female. As times evolve, perhaps there will be no difference, but I think we are a long ways from that.

All that said, would is be fun to be completely female for a short time? Yes, it would be a very interesting experience but it might not be like you'd think. I am 62 and I have spent all these years essentially as male. I think there's a lot of subtlety that is learned and absorbed by females over their lives. I would not have that and I don't think you can get it in a short period of time.

[Rianna Humble]

I explored this concept and I believe that it's possible for a CD to become a TS.

Fortunately, the facts don't support this outlandish notion.

[SweetIonis]

Fortunately, the facts don't support this outlandish notion.

I have put forward rationale, that will be difficult to dispute rationally. The only thing I have seen so far is unsubstantiated emotional outbursts.

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

I have put forward rationale, that will be difficult to dispute rationally. The only thing I have seen so far is unsubstantiated emotional outbursts.

I just had a quick scroll through the thread and all that I can see you having put forward is a proposition without any rationale.

While a person who is a TS can deny their need to transition and tell everybody including themselves that they are only a CD, short of a physical change to the brain such as a stroke, there is no research that I'm aware of that indicates that a person who was psychologically only a CD can become a TS. What does happen is that TSes in denial cease denying their need to transition, giving the impression that a person who previously claimed to be only a CD has become a TS.

[Samantha43]

Will the CD desire ever evolve?

I have been crossdressing for 35 years or so, and my desire and goals are basically the same as they were when I first started. There have been times when the desire has peaked, and times when it wasn't there at all, but it has balanced over the years. At times when I am in a peak and the pink fog has a pretty good hold of me I have thought "wouldn't it be cool to really be a girl". Then the pink fog clears and I wonder why I was thinking that.

I couldn't live my life as a female. I want to run away whenever my wife has bunch of women over (Dad called them hen parties :D). I really hate shopping.....malls are little pieces of hell on earth and I stay away from them. A woman's thought process is a complete mystery to me, I've been married for 23 years and I still can't figure her out. I just wouldn't fit in.

I'll live my life as a male and enjoy all of the male things I do.

I'll also enjoy my unique hobby!

No evolution here.

[SweetIonis]

I just had a quick scroll through the thread and all that I can see you having put forward is a proposition without any rationale.

While a person who is a TS can deny their need to transition and tell everybody including themselves that they are only a CD, short of a physical change to the brain such as a stroke, there is no research that I'm aware of that indicates that a person who was psychologically only a CD can become a TS. What does happen is that TSes in denial cease denying their need to transition, giving the impression that a person who previously claimed to be only a CD has become a TS.

Alice, I welcome your civil response and frankly, I'm thankful for it. I opened another thread where I put forward rationale, supported by well known psychological principles as to how this is possible. However, I thought about it, and after seeing how some who are actually TS feel that such ideas put them at risk, and after it was pointed out to me that this was the life that they actually have to lead, I decided to stop an in depth discussion in this forum. Although I got some very vicious and vindictive responses, I my heart I really and truly care about all of these individuals. I would rather hurt than to think that I have done something that would cause them some substantial harm in this way. In particular these ideas could give rise to the notion that these psychological principles could be used to reverse the process. This could potentially cause a lot of unnecessary havok and as such, I don't think it's worth me repeating it.

Now that said, as to your point. I would say that depending on how you define a CD and a TS then what you say is true. What I mean by that is that if you feel that it's impossible and the only way it could happen is that the person was a TS all along, then the definition itself excludes the possibility. But that aside, I would say that a person who finally came to that conclusion would always be able to look back and find evidence to support that it was that way all along. It is possible, BUT NOT NECESSARILY THE CASE, that this COULD be explained due to a need to resolve a dissonance that is in their mind. Here's a link that explains the concept in case someone is not familiar with it:

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance)

I realize that not all persons will take this route. There are some, I will be bold and say the majority, have this tendency strongly from birth and it just becomes more and more reinforced over time, one way or another. However, I feel that there are some cases where the person is not quite there. In these cases I feel that there is a phase where you have two gender identities that exist simultaneously. To me a person in this phase is not, strictly speaking a TS. Here you are likely to see a substantial conflict arise, and depending on how circumstances play out with respect to conditioning, one of these identities could, but not necessarily, prevail. In this case I would suspect that the dissonance caused by the conflicting identities could be resolved in the person's mind by saying it was that way all along.

What do you think?

[Rianna Humble]

I just had a quick scroll through the thread and all that I can see you having put forward is a proposition without any rationale.

Equally, in his unsubstantiated drivel, Ionis ignores the well documented cases of children who have been brought up as if they were the opposite gender to their natal sex - thus undergoing the sort of conditioning that he puts forward as his argument - and who by the time that they became adults have rejected the conditioning and insisted that their gender is equal to their natal sex.

He also wilfully ignores the equally well documented cases of intersex children who have had female organs removed shortly after birth who have been conditioned to believe that they were male and who in adulthood have found themselves needing to revert to their true gender despite the barriers that had been placed in their way.

[LitaKelley]

It's definitely evolved for me.. When I first came to this forum I thought I was just a crossdresser... and I progressed on to living full time as a woman and am out every day as a woman, and in the beginning stages of transition... I actually despise the term crossdresser if/when someone applies it to me.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If you stick to the idea of crossdressing as a behaviour, then it depends on why you crossdress...

There is no basis to say a person that crossdresses for any reason OTHER than being transsexual will develop into something different....but each person must somehow figure it out for themselves WHY they dress...
and both crossdressing and transsexuality are socially and culturally unacceptable, even hated ...so the core reason can be very difficult to understand for a young person.

people who confuse "development" into transsexuality are missing the point the "being" a woman has absolutely nothing to do with what you wear, what you like to talk to about, how you shop....etc...etc... it's just a simple thing....you just are..

so if it turns out that you are crossdressing for the reason that your actual internal identity is the same as a genetic female.......it's very possible over time you will realize that dressing is not "just dressing", and your male life will become more and more difficult to bear...it's also a common misconception that a ts "knows when they are 5 or 6"... ask yourself right now everything you "know" you knew when you were 5... it's certainly possible to know as a small child...but its very normal to just push those thoughts out of your brain for many years.....my earliest recollection was seeing a transsexual pictured in time magazine when i was 10 years old and i wanted so bad to "be her"... even then, i dismissed the thought as best i could and compartmentalized all my cross gender behaviour until well into my 30's/early 40's...

the idea that you can be indoctrinated into femaleness ignores the real world concept that pretty much every middle age transsexual in the world DESPERATELY tried to stay male, DESPERATELY tried to enjoy all the positive benefits of maleness, all the power, all the privilege, all the great things about being a guy just don't internally register and many have attempted to die rather than "switch"...and most of the ones i know (including me), still love lots of the traditionally male things..
the idea that you can develop INTO transsexuality, or be pushed into is exactly the OPPOSITE of the real life experience of being ts...

I used to love the idea of "pink fog"...but i learned being ts is the opposite of pink fog..it's a pink steamroller crushing the life out of you.

[flatlander_48]

It's definitely evolved for me.. When I first came to this forum I thought I was just a crossdresser... and I progressed on to living full time as a woman and am out every day as a woman, and in the beginning stages of transition... I actually despise the term crossdresser if/when someone applies it to me.

I don't think that evolved is the right word. You were always a person who should be on the road to transitioning. Crossdressing was only the first step on that path to discovery. It allowed you to break the rigidity around gender and begin to see yourself more clearly. Similarly, you cannot make a person gay. You are what you are, whether you admit it or not...

[SweetIonis]

Equally, in his unsubstantiated drivel, Ionis ignores the well documented cases of children who have been brought up as if they were the opposite gender to their natal sex - thus undergoing the sort of conditioning that he puts forward as his argument - and who by the time that they became adults have rejected the conditioning and insisted that their gender is equal to their natal sex.

He also wilfully ignores the equally well documented cases of intersex children who have had female organs removed shortly after birth who have been conditioned to believe that they were male and who in adulthood have found themselves needing to revert to their true gender despite the barriers that had been placed in their way.

Rianna, ignoring the insult, I think this is a better response. What I would say is that the initial degree to which the person is pre-disposed to such behavior would determine the amount of conditioning needed to effect such a change. In some it might be impossible over the course of a lifetime.

Having said that, let me give you some background on how I came to the conclusion that it's possible for a person's gender identity to change.

Around the time I was 16 to 17 years old I went through this intense phase of questioning who are we, what is the purpose of life, and what is the causality of cognition. At around 19 I had come to some basic conclusions that form the foundation of my thinking in this regard to this day. As a result of those conclusions, I see the phenomenon of self identification in general to be a mental construct that is malleable. Interestingly enough, around this time I worked as a lifeguard at a municipal swimming pool one summer. One day when we were at lunch, this guy that I knew, who was very athletic and very popular with the ladies, had a brother that came up who was very angry at him. Now this guy (not the angry brother) had been in prison for a while. Some further background is that he is black, and had been expelled from school in the EIGHTH GRADE for having sex, at school with a white girl. So the angry brother began saying all these nasty things about him. He then narrated how he had caught him in bed having sex with another man. At that point in my life, I was shocked! I never imagined that he was capable of doing something like that. However he did not deny it, and confessed right there in front of everyone that what his brother said was true. Now not too long after that, I had some rather lengthy conversation with several people that had been in prison for a substantial amount of time. It appears that prison CAN, but not necessarily have the effect of altering a person's perception of their gender identity. I had thought it, but after those conversations I was convinced that gender identity is something that can be significantly changed.

Now I really had not thought about how it relates to a CD becoming a TS that much until that thread was posted concerning CD or TS in which we had our little exchange. After that I thought I would explore the concept and posted a thread where I laid out the principles that could cause this to happen.

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

In these cases I feel that there is a phase where you have two gender identities that exist simultaneously. To me a person in this phase is not, strictly speaking a TS. Here you are likely to see a substantial conflict arise, and depending on how circumstances play out with respect to conditioning, one of these identities could, but not necessarily, prevail. In this case I would suspect that the dissonance caused by the conflicting identities could be resolved in the person's mind by saying it was that way all along.

There are plenty of theories, and this one of yours would be as good a fit as the theory that a person is in such deep fear-based denial that they suppress their transsexuality. Where it may fall down somewhat is in the assumption that the two gender identities exist as an innate part of the person.

Dual personalities or gender identities are a creation of the conscious mind, used to assist in defining a boundary between two sets of behaviours. Such 2-mode behaviour is certainly not restricted to transgender people. In fact, it occurs in everybody to some extent. The way you behave at work is different to the way you behave in your bedroom, and the separate behaviour sets are constructed by the individual in order to fit into social expectations, etc. A transsexual who is suppressing their real gender identity will create a persona with its gender matching their natal sex.

It's interesting to note that as they age, a lot of TG people who maintained separate male and female personae cease to feel the need to maintain that separation as they mature. Some, like me, find it convenient to use their "other" name in the 3rd person in conversation, such as when discussing their female clothing preferences while in public as a male.


Equally, in his unsubstantiated drivel, Ionis ignores the well documented cases of children who have been brought up as if they were the opposite gender to their natal sex - thus undergoing the sort of conditioning that he puts forward as his argument - and who by the time that they became adults have rejected the conditioning and insisted that their gender is equal to their natal sex.

He also wilfully ignores the equally well documented cases of intersex children who have had female organs removed shortly after birth who have been conditioned to believe that they were male and who in adulthood have found themselves needing to revert to their true gender despite the barriers that had been placed in their way.

All of that research appears to indicate that gender identity is fixed at birth, even if it is suppressed for part of the person's life.


It's definitely evolved for me.. When I first came to this forum I thought I was just a crossdresser... and I progressed on to living full time as a woman and am out every day as a woman, and in the beginning stages of transition... I actually despise the term crossdresser if/when someone applies it to me.

Your experience is consistent with that of quite a few of my personal friends and acquaintances. I know many who have moved from considering themselves CDs to being full-time, including one who went from deliberately very hairy and closeted to full time and having had FFS to the point of not being able to pass as male, in literally under a year.

[xErica]

I read this and agree with both sides.... sort of. I thank you are are or are not there is no "evolving" BUT it can seem as an evolution. For those in full denial of being TS the baby steps in admitting to yourself can SEEM to be an evolution. As for me im trying to "discover" myself. I am in the beginning of my journey and after 32 years of hiding from myself, what is a lie and what is the truth is hard to determine. Finding where one fits into the TG community is a mentally draining process. I do not care about the label that may come with it. It's hard to take the first steep into CD. Once you have and you get that feeling of inner peace next comes confusion and fear (at least for me). I understand calling it evolving though it's more "self discovery" or "self realization" in my opinion. I thank that to much time is being spent on the word "evolve".

e·volve (-vlv)
v. e·volved, e·volv·ing, e·volves
v.tr.
1.
a. To develop or achieve gradually: evolve a style of one's own.
b. To work (something) out; devise: "the schemes he evolved to line his purse" (S.J. Perelman).
2. Biology To develop (a characteristic) by evolutionary processes.
3. To give off; emit.
v.intr.
1. To undergo gradual change; develop:
2. Biology To develop or arise through evolutionary processes.

i am undergoing gradual change and i am working something out. to me it fits the definition. but when the word is used it only in one way, because that is the primary way we here it.

but to answer what i believe was the question witch was if you CD will it inevitably lead to wanting a full change. (correct me if im wrong Samantha) I am new to this but I believe that that the answer is no.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

a transsexual "is"... you "are" or you "arent" transsexual... there is nothing else to it...
if you are ts, what you do about it, how you cope with it, whether you crossdress etcetcetc are different for all people...
a person that crossdresses and then realizes she is doing it because she "is" transsexual did not evolve into being ts..her understanding of her herself and her situation evolved..

the difference is important because so many of us (Ts/cd/tg) feel alot of negative emotions around our behavior, and accepting yourself is a huge part of feeling good about yourself.

[xErica]

a person that crossdresses and then realizes she is doing it because she "is" transsexual did not evolve into being ts..her understanding of her herself and her situation evolved..



Kaitlyn that is what i was trying to say thank you

[SweetIonis]

There are plenty of theories, and this one of yours would be as good a fit as the theory that a person is in such deep fear-based denial that they suppress their transsexuality. Where it may fall down somewhat is in the assumption that the two gender identities exist as an innate part of the person.

Dual personalities or gender identities are a creation of the conscious mind, used to assist in defining a boundary between two sets of behaviours. Such 2-mode behaviour is certainly not restricted to transgender people. In fact, it occurs in everybody to some extent. The way you behave at work is different to the way you behave in your bedroom, and the separate behaviour sets are constructed by the individual in order to fit into social expectations, etc. A transsexual who is suppressing their real gender identity will create a persona with its gender matching their natal sex.

It is certainly an assumption that two different gender identities exist innately. However I would also put forward that it is also an assumption that gender identity exists at all innately. I really had not thought about it, but right off the top of my head I could put forward the notion that gender identity does not exist at all innately and what really exists innately is a set of desires and cognition itself. Then at birth cognition, at a conscious and sub-conscious level, CONSTRUCTS gender identity around those desires to fit into the various gender roles that are aligned with those desires. If that set of desires go contrary to what the environment has defined for the roles appropriate for the person's birth sex, you would see a gender construction opposite that persons sex that conforms to the person's desires as well as possibly a construction that fits what the environment has defined as appropriate. Now that's off the top of my head.

Even if we assume that one gender exists innately and an alternate gender can be constructed what it says is that multiple gender identities can exist simultaneously even if one is synthetic. Therefore there would be no reason why we could not also equally assume that multiple gender identities can exist innately. If we can observe that two can exist in an extrinsic fashion, they should be able to exist simultaneously innately.

I almost forgot, but I also wanted to say that if we assume that there is an innate gender identity and that one can be constructed, we should also consider the possibility that a construed identity could come to dominate the innate one. In that case it would be difficult to determine which was construed and which was innate, because as I mentioned before, the person would resolve the resulting dissonance by saying that the construct was the innate one.


Equally, in his unsubstantiated drivel, Ionis ignores the well documented cases of children who have been brought up as if they were the opposite gender to their natal sex - thus undergoing the sort of conditioning that he puts forward as his argument - and who by the time that they became adults have rejected the conditioning and insisted that their gender is equal to their natal sex.

He also wilfully ignores the equally well documented cases of intersex children who have had female organs removed shortly after birth who have been conditioned to believe that they were male and who in adulthood have found themselves needing to revert to their true gender despite the barriers that had been placed in their way.

I want to bring this into sharper focus. On closer inspection, neither of the cases that you put forward involve the type of conditioning that I mentioned. The type of conditioning involved here is closer to classical conditioning. In classic conditioning there is a stimulus presented to cause a particular type of behavior. Whereas in operant conditioning the behavior is voluntary and is done to evoke the stimulus. In your cases the dressing is imposed, whereas in what I purposed the dressing is voluntary.
Not only that but recall that the assertion was that a CS could evolve into a TS, not that an arbitrary child could conditioned to a gender identity that opposes their natal sex. The latter would be considerably more difficult and again, might not be possible over a lifetime. However, I would say that if you wanted to be totally unethical and brutal, if you tightly controlled the environment, paired innate unconditioned stimuli with the appropriate conditioned stimuli, and imposed severe negative reinforcement along with gracious positive reinforcement, somewhere over the course of a lifetime you would start to see substantial progress, even in the most difficult cases. However, that would be highly unethical and criminal.