Is the term GLBT a disservice to us?

[JamieTG]

I've done a lot of thinking about this recently. Gays, lesbians, and bisexuals are all terms that deal with sexual preference whereas transgender has nothing to do with sexual preference. I can see why we have have been lumped in because it is an alternative lifestyle but I think thats why so many people naturally assume we are gay. If GLB has homosexual activity involved, then T must also. I think the term is working against us but I don't see any way to change it.

[Leslie Foxx]

I think being included under that umbrella does more of a service than disservice. The service is that it makes us part of a larger group that lobbies in the area of human rights for all of us. I personally feel that we owe a debt of gratitude to the gay and lesbian activists who broke ground over the past 40+ years which makes equality attainable for ALL of us. If you are concerned that you may be thought of as gay or lesbian by association, I don't know what to tell you.

[Erika_bagels]

I may be new to the scene, but I'd have to say I don't want to be lumped into that group just based on being a transvestite. However, as a bisexual, LGB works for me. Trans means ascending boundaries or expectations. It's a very gray area for a lot of us.

That's like lumping all gay men sexually with straight men, to me. LGBT assumes too much on the T side. I feel like I've been swept up onto a bandwagon when people use the term.

Then again, the whole idea of LGBT is a gray area, so please take what I say with a grain of salt.

[NathalieX66]

When the spectum of GLBT or LGBT becomes something like LGBTGQILMNOXYXZ12345 is when it get out of hand, methinks. :bonk:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

as far as it goes, the LGB folks are good friends and supporters of our issues, at least up until it harms them...i can't blame a political ally for putting themselves first..it's just the way of the world..if not LGB, then who?
unfortunately for us, the number of T's in the world is so small that we need all the help we can get..plus most of us are in the closet anyway..

recently i was infuriated at my exboss who came out of the closet at the very end of his career...he was lauded for his "courage" and he and his partner are the toast of the town...me? i was forced out in a restructuring.. afterwards he commented about how we shared our experience and it just really pissed me off..

I was at the philly pride parade a week ago, and i didn't see one booth that was only trans/cd related.. but i saw lots of drag queens running around in pantyhose and 90 degree heat, sweating so bad they couldn't touch their own face..

[Stephanie47]

As a cross-dresser who is strictly heterosexual I really don't feel comfortable lumped in with GLBT. GLBT deals with sexuality, sexual orientation. Even though my city and state is supportive of laws that prohibit discrimination in employment and housing for the GLBT group AND cross-dressers, I still do not see any flurry of cross-dressing activity around town. Most of the GLBT folks appear to keep their sexuality private. I do not see how in the world a confirmed cross-dresser can assert his legal rights without stirring the pot in the community. I know of gay or lesbian teachers and nobody cares or even knows. But, I've never seen a cross-dresser in school at any level. I really think cross-dressers are a separate and distinct minority group.

[Lorileah]

always better to have people who are willing to keep you and help support you than to cut the cord and drift alone. Consider that 90% (a fact that I made up just now) of the CD's here will never see sunshine and will always cower in the closet, do you think that having a "T" group by itself will ever get any attention?

[RachelOKC]

I've done a lot of thinking about this recently. Gays, lesbians, and bisexuals are all terms that deal with sexual preference whereas transgender has nothing to do with sexual preference. I can see why we have have been lumped in because it is an alternative lifestyle but I think thats why so many people naturally assume we are gay. If GLB has homosexual activity involved, then T must also. I think the term is working against us but I don't see any way to change it.

Why would you want to change the term anyway? Trans rights are decades behind gay rights and if we were to foolishly shun the rest of the GLB* community then we'd be left in the dust. I can tell you with a great degree of confidence that transpeople are going to be a lot more reluctant to show up and speak up for their rights without having the support of our GLB* friends. Here in the Bay Area we have a yearly Transgender March (this coming Friday) but that's only happened because of critical mass acheived through years of working with the rest of our GLB* friends and supporters. What does your local trans community do for itself?

Personally, I think these Trans v. Gay threads are born out of homophobia, like somehow it is less ok to be gay than for a straight man to wear a dress. The falacy is in the comparison - there is nothing wrong with EITHER.


As a cross-dresser who is strictly heterosexual I really don't feel comfortable lumped in with GLBT. GLBT deals with sexuality, sexual orientation. Even though my city and state is supportive of laws that prohibit discrimination in employment and housing for the GLBT group AND cross-dressers, I still do not see any flurry of cross-dressing activity around town. Most of the GLBT folks appear to keep their sexuality private. I do not see how in the world a confirmed cross-dresser can assert his legal rights without stirring the pot in the community. I know of gay or lesbian teachers and nobody cares or even knows. But, I've never seen a cross-dresser in school at any level. I really think cross-dressers are a separate and distinct minority group.

See above.

So what if GLB* deals with sexuality? Does that somehow make them inferior or superior? NO. We all just want to be free of persecution and discrimination based upon who we are. In other words we want life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

If you're not happy with your status as a crossdresser in the community, feel free to speak up and march for your own rights. Little things do matter and one person can make a difference, but it's a lot harder to do it alone then with those GLB* friends who would happy stand with you.

[LilSissyStevie]

Two of the recurring themes on this board are 1) Gays fought for their rights and now “society” adores them and throws rose petals at their feet as they walk by while crossdressers are hunted and despised. 2) Crossdressers would be better off if people didn't automatically assume they were gay. Which is it?

[anda_mouse]

just to play devils advocate....there are also people within the gay community who dont like being lumped in with us as well. personally it is a none issue to me. however....i see both sides clearly.

[Kate Simmons]

I never really cared for labels of any kind. I prefer to call a person by name, end of story.:)

[Badtranny]

You tell 'em Rachel! (girl I live right down the road from you in Concord)

This has always been a sensitive topic for me and what I'm about to say isn't gonna make me friends on either side but here we go;

I am indeed a TS woman who is currently walking the long walk of transition, BUT honestly I would identify as queer before TS. Right now I look like something in between male and female with my long hair and earrings and femmy clothes. Some people call me ma'am, some call me sir and some aren't really sure, and I'm perfectly happy that way, for now at least. Obviously, the dream is to eventually go stealth but since I started so damn late I may as well learn how to be happy as someone who will, in all likelihood always be recognized as a tranny. I have to admit I am really enjoying the freedom of being "out" and I absolutely love turning the heads of straight guys who can't help but check out my body before they realize that I'm not a real girl. It's delicious ;-)

I owe this freedom to my homosexual brothers and sisters who endured horrible civil rights abuses for decades. I am free to be me because of their fight to be free.

So while I'm in the midst of my transition, I have no problem being a queer ambassador and hopefully changing the attitudes about gender flexible people one new person at a time. I never get angry when people stare anymore, I smile and wave say "Hi!".
I happen to be attracted to men, in fact I'm a sucker for a big strong guy that adores me, but I can guarantee that I wouldn't be any different if I was into women. In fact I get more attention from women now then I ever did when I was trying so hard to be a straight man.

Is GLBT a disservice? Hell no, I'm thankful everyday that we get to ride on their coattails.

[TGMarla]

Whereas I agree with Rachel and Lorileah and others who astutely point out that there is power in numbers, I honestly have nothing in common with the LGB part of the spectrum. "T" is something completely different from the others grouped under this umbrella, and it does indeed lead to the erroneous, but common assumption that we are all gay.

[arbon]

How is being part of LGB working against the transgender community? Because people might assume that your gay?

From a political / human rights standpoint the lgb would do much better without us "T's" and our silly needs. The "T" is not going to get very far on it's own, and once we are safely distanced from the LGB we can divid the TG's, CD's, TS's, Gender Queers, Gender Benders, and Androgyne people into all there own separate little groups and make our voice weaker still. Maybe we can get back to the days when it was illegal to wear to many clothing items of the opposite sex - I'm sure there are lots of people out there would like that.

[AllieSF]

I love that we are part of the LGBT conglomerate. It helps all of us and there is definitely strength in numbers. A lot of the current local, State and Federal regulations that are starting to protect us T's is being added on to existing civil rights laws and regulations for our LGB brothers and sisters. They broke the ground and now we get to plant in their fields. We are such a scattered group with very little public unity that the LGBT designations helps us with a unified voice.

(Rachel and BadTranny we live so close together that we have to be careful throwing rocks as we might hit one another!)

[RachelOKC]

Two of the recurring themes on this board are 1) Gays fought for their rights and now “society” adores them and throws rose petals at their feet as they walk by while crossdressers are hunted and despised. 2) Crossdressers would be better off if people didn't automatically assume they were gay. Which is it?

I personally think both themes are misconceptions.


just to play devils advocate....there are also people within the gay community who dont like being lumped in with us as well. personally it is a none issue to me. however....i see both sides clearly.

This is very true. The gay community often struggles with how they are represented. It's not just a two way street, it's more like a thousand-level freeway interchange.


You tell 'em Rachel! (girl I live right down the road from you in Concord)

This has always been a sensitive topic for me and what I'm about to say isn't gonna make me friends on either side but here we go;

I am indeed a TS woman who is currently walking the long walk of transition, BUT honestly I would identify as queer before TS. Right now I look like something in between male and female with my long hair and earrings and femmy clothes. Some people call me ma'am, some call me sir and some aren't really sure, and I'm perfectly happy that way, for now at least. Obviously, the dream is to eventually go stealth but since I started so damn late I may as well learn how to be happy as someone who will, in all likelihood always be recognized as a tranny. I have to admit I am really enjoying the freedom of being "out" and I absolutely love turning the heads of straight guys who can't help but check out my body before they realize that I'm not a real girl. It's delicious ;-)

I owe this freedom to my homosexual brothers and sisters who endured horrible civil rights abuses for decades. I am free to be me because of their fight to be free.

So while I'm in the midst of my transition, I have no problem being a queer ambassador and hopefully changing the attitudes about gender flexible people one new person at a time. I never get angry when people stare anymore, I smile and wave say "Hi!".
I happen to be attracted to men, in fact I'm a sucker for a big strong guy that adores me, but I can guarantee that I wouldn't be any different if I was into women. In fact I get more attention from women now then I ever did when I was trying so hard to be a straight man.

Is GLBT a disservice? Hell no, I'm thankful everyday that we get to ride on their coattails.

Couldn't have said it better myself.


Whereas I agree with Rachel and Lorileah and others who astutely point out that there is power in numbers, I honestly have nothing in common with the LGB part of the spectrum. "T" is something completely different from the others grouped under this umbrella, and it does indeed lead to the erroneous, but common assumption that we are all gay.

Glad for the assent on the first point. I'm not sure why we need to worry about this erroneous assumption because I can't imagine that it matters in any way, shape, or form unless there is something wrong with being gay....which there's not. Our friends and supporters are likely to know the difference anyway and most of the ignorant ones wouldn't give an damn.


How is being part of LGB working against the transgender community? Because people might assume that your gay?

From a political / human rights standpoint the lgb would do much better without us "T's" and our silly needs. The "T" is not going to get very far on it's own, and once we are safely distanced from the LGB we can divid the TG's, CD's, TS's, Gender Queers, Gender Benders, and Androgyne people into all there own separate little groups and make our voice weaker still. Maybe we can get back to the days when it was illegal to wear to many clothing items of the opposite sex - I'm sure there are lots of people out there would like that.

Yep, united we stand, divided we fall. Those who stand organized and opposed to GLBTs love nothing more than to see us arguing amongst ourselves. It makes their jobs easier.


I love that we are part of the LGBT conglomerate. It helps all of us and there is definitely strength in numbers. A lot of the current local, State and Federal regulations that are starting to protect us T's is being added on to existing civil rights laws and regulations for our LGB brothers and sisters. They broke the ground and now we get to plant in their fields. We are such a scattered group with very little public unity that the LGBT designations helps us with a unified voice.

(Rachel and BadTranny we live so close together that we have to be careful throwing rocks as we might hit one another!)

We owe a debt of gratitude to every civil rights movement that came before us and helped pave the way, whether they support us or not. It's easier to walk in someone else's steps than to blaze your own trail.

(I'll try not to throw too many rocks at my neighbors...perhaps a water balloon ;) )

[JulieK1980]

It makes perfect sense in my mind why we are "lumped" into the LGBT category. All those letters represent something that is beyond the accepted confines of "normal" behavior.

This shouldn't be a newsflash to anyone, but if you are a guy wearing a dress, the average person that knows nothing of transgendered people, is GOING to see you as gay. That will be the case regardless of what group we are "lumped" into.

Me personally, think it is better to have allies that allow us to tag along with them, (especially when it comes to politics and laws,) than to go it by ourselves. Even more so because, lets face it, the vast majority of us hide away from society as it is.

[Erika_bagels]

I guess it doesn't really matter if I get lumped into the social stigma attached to "gay", it's pretty much the same stigma as "transvestite" in our society. After reading all the posts, the lumping doesn't seem so bad. I guess some of us are afraid of extra labels, trans or not. America especially is a very sexually restrictive society, so anyone who does anything outside the acceptable hetero norms is pretty much screwed in many social situations. I mean, look at our society; we use "gay" to express sentiments that 10 years ago would have been expressed by "lame", "awkward" or "stupid" or even "vaguely unimpressive". I can see why some people don't want that extra label tacked on... eh.
We is what we is.

[Cari]

The LBGT movement has a long history in the US and the T has been included from the start.
The Stonewall Riots are often cited as the start of the movement.
There were many people who associated with the T involved in that riot.
The account on the Stonewall Inns webpage and many other accounts have a 17 year old crossdresser throwing the first punch at the police.

From what Ive read; when the police raided the bar the T's couldn't hide.
If you were arrested wearing a dress and makeup it was a slam dunk in court.

From what I have read many of the LGB people could have simply walked away and blended into a growing crowd
They chose to support the T that night.
That was in 1969 and they still support the T today.
That's pretty good company to be in.

[Eryn]

“If we do not hang together, we shall surely hang separately.” [Benjamin Franklin]

I'm not gay, but that doesn't mean I cannot support their goals as they support mine. Many of the laws enacted primarily to protect gays also protect me. I see no conflict between the gay and TG agendas at all which keeps the alliance very workable.

[JodieGreen]

it's a lot better then being called a f@#^ot

:P

hahah too bad i'm hotter then anything they've ever shagged (O'snap)

[Karren H]

Maybe we should align with illegal aliens? Or bank robbers?

[Kaz]

Two of the recurring themes on this board are 1) Gays fought for their rights and now “society” adores them and throws rose petals at their feet as they walk by while crossdressers are hunted and despised. 2) Crossdressers would be better off if people didn't automatically assume they were gay. Which is it?

This is sadly the major paradox...!

[Cassandra Lynn]

It appeared to me in reading the replies that those who don't like the alliance site societal and their own flawed perceptions and are just being biased. LGBT is a powerful organization out there doing what they do for our rights and freedoms, this isn't a popularity contest folks.

[VioletJourney]

Nope. Nothing wrong with people assuming we're gay. If you consider "gay" to be a bad thing then maybe you haven't fully learned from your experiences as a crossdresser.

[Kathryn Philips]

First of all I would like to say that it is because of threads like this one that I find this forum is such a great place.

I think we should be grateful to the LBG movement for opening the way for us even though we trail anywhere between 10 and 15 years in the general level of acceptance. I my particular case if my wife were to accept LBG people, then she might accept me. She is one of those who find it impossible to comprehend that crossdressing and sexual orientation are unrelated.

[Kittykitty]

I'll say the same thing I tell the utilities companies when they want ALL my info just to pay a bill... anyone who wants to fight FOR me or pay my bills is welcome to.

God bless any activist fighting for freedom. .

[Schatten Lupus]

As other pointed out, it's better to have a larger group that helps support us, because we would probably be years behind if we didn't have the full support. We both work towards equality and fair treatment, and the Stonewall incident that launched the "gay rights" partly happened because of people who fall under the T part of the label. While we may have fallen behind in social acceptance, the movement was started by both groups supporting eachother, so why shouldn't we be under the same banner?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Nope. Nothing wrong with people assuming we're gay. If you consider "gay" to be a bad thing then maybe you haven't fully learned from your experiences as a crossdresser.

exactly.. it's amazing how many guys I've met in my cd days that said "I'm not gay!!"... It's amazing how many coming out posts here that include "I'm not gay"... Those gays must be terrible people..gosh forbid we get hooked up with them..

i mentioned it earlier..it's not a perfect coupling...and there are more gay people that would cross the T off LGBT than there are T people in total..so we can stomp our feet all we want, it doesn't matter...

[Starling]

To be fair, a lot of the "I'm not gay" stuff is about reassuring our shook-up hetero mate that we want to continue having sex--and perhaps even babies--with her. But outside of that context, it may well be expressing the homophobia that still lurks in the dark corners of our minds.

:) Lallie

[erickka]

I agree with Ms Foxx on this one. There IS strength in numbers, and I'll bet there are lots more of the LBG than there are the T in this grouping of people, so count me in with the larger more "powerful" voices.

[cd_in_de]

I am not gay, but I will not turn down the support of the LGBT community. They are the only ones willing to support us. They do not judge us, so we should not be judgmental in turning down their support. I am supportive of the LGBT community because they are supportive of us.

[Tina B.]

How can being part of LGBTQ be a bad thing for us, in this society Gays have a higher standing than we do, so being associated with them has to lift us up, at least it does politically. Living in the Bay Area at the time, I remember ACT UP, and some of the things they where doing, that helped bring those walls down, I still think we owe them a lot, and I believe the best way to support that is to be proud to be a member of the LGBT community.
Tina B.

[Fionax]

However the attitudes of main stream society view the GLB part, the T will always be separate. None of the GLB section exist in isolation: there is always a second half, it takes two to tango; whereas the greater majority of the rest of us are solitary. However much we may dream of passing and no matter how brave we are, we are mostly in the closet and that is how it will remain, even if definitive internationally acclaimed research proved that absolutely none of us are gay. The passing of laws to make employers accept crossdressing has not made a drop of difference in the way the greater public think about us and hanging on to the coat tails of the GLB group will change nothing. In fact being associated with it will reinforce the mind set of the mass of people that we are a group apart from them. Might not changing tack completely and link with civil war enactment groups to show that we are only dressing to play a part and are otherwise just ordinary folk? Maybe leaving love and sex way behind might flip the coin.

[Iskandra]

Words (including abreviations) have no power other than that which mere mortal places on those words!
The acceptance (mostly) of the LGB mob was/is a power struggle, not without it's victims..
I have been to a few mardi gras, and while i can see people celebrating life, and it's a gay old time! (scuse the pun) I have issues with it being about sexual preference!
Do it, be it, but don't flaunt it! Thats my thinking.. And there in lies the difference.. Many CD's would be happy to pass, blend in.. Mardi gras etc, is all about in your face Jimmybob! Though that does seem to be more a male gay thing than a (sub)culture thing!
Men seem to want or need acceptance for being different way more than women... probably a society thing where a woman can get away with wearing mens clothes or acting male but the reverse does not apply..
Times have indeed changed, yes CD's were left behind.. Because we look up to the LGB mob and think that it's the way to go to be accepted..
But no girls, It is time to think like women, be like women and be as subtle as they are! Frontal assault no longer works, guerilla tactics.. That might just do the trick!

A little bangle, or wearing a small token that is seen as female, and when questioned about it simply say, oh, it's becoming fashionable! (or such)
This both removes the power of accepted stigma and eases ppl into accepting more.. (baby steps)
Think of it as a child learns letters before words, words before sentences.. Soon they learn to read..

"Dont show me a seed and tell me it's a rose, but let me see it grow and blossom and we will enjoy it's fragrance together!"

Any group that stands for equality and acceptance is not a disservice to anything..

[t-girlxsophie]

I owe a debt to the LGBT Community,I started my journey at support group meeting held in local LGBT centre,and through the years have made a good few friends from all sections of the community,and took part in a lot of initiatives.Was there universal acceptance of us T folk,no but It's unlikely your gonna have every single person singing from the same Hymn Sheet.It's unlikely we could make the strides our Community has though,without the support from LGBT

Sophie

[Emily Ann Brown]

My girlfriend says YOUR work probably thinks you are gay..don't that bother you.." I say they can't fire me for being GAY!" HAHAHAHAHA..whatever.


Em

[Lorileah]

The acceptance (mostly) of the LGB mob was/is a power struggle, not without it's victims..
I have been to a few mardi gras, and while i can see people celebrating life, and it's a gay old time! (scuse the pun) I have issues with it being about sexual preference!
Do it, be it, but don't flaunt it! Thats my thinking.. And there in lies the difference.. Many CD's would be happy to pass, blend in.. Mardi gras etc, is all about in your face Jimmybob! Though that does seem to be more a male gay thing than a (sub)culture thing! OK not getting this. If you mean Pride events, I can understand but Mardi Gras is a religious thing. It is an example of a "season of License". It is an extension of a last hurrah or an antithesis of a coming event where one must follow stringent rules. And if you are limiting this to males as in Pride, you missed on heck of a party here in Denver with more half clad and almost unclad females than males.

The "in your face part" is common in upheaval and may be an integral part of revolution and change. Very little changes with not fighting for what you want. In the case of these boards, when a majority are happy to hide in a closet and not force an issue like being able to express themselves by wearing or acting as they wish them social change will never occur. TG's will not get the freedom they harp about here until they work towards that freedom. Passing in public may be a holy grail but as noted very few ever will. So just being assimilated into the culture is a "no go" in our case. Seasons of License may be loud and raucous but they get one thing done, they get noticed.

Men seem to want or need acceptance for being different way more than women... probably a society thing where a woman can get away with wearing mens clothes or acting male but the reverse does not apply..

Don't even go there. It shows a complete lack of understanding about how all that came about from a repressed section of society (women) that stood up and demanded that they get certain rights. Go back 60 years and see how women in slacks were thought of.


But no girls, It is time to think like women, be like women and be as subtle as they are! Frontal assault no longer works, guerilla tactics.. That might just do the trick!

A little bangle, or wearing a small token that is seen as female, and when questioned about it simply say, oh, it's becoming fashionable! (or such)
This both removes the power of accepted stigma and eases ppl into accepting more.. (baby steps)
Think of it as a child learns letters before words, words before sentences.. Soon they learn to read..

Interesting comment. The African Americans tried that for 100 years. Blend in, act white, be like the whites, that will get you jobs, and acceptance... Maybe over decades and more likely centuries it might. The status quo won't change because the quo when in power tends to want to keep that power. I don't know about you but having my grand children get the acceptance doesn't make my life any better (selfish ain't I?). Name one passive change in recent memory that was brought about by just letting it be. Reformation? There were battles between the Catholics and Protestants. Civil rights (what few are in force and many are still being fought for)? Women's rights (you missed the bra burnings the marches, the boycotts)? Many are still in effect in many parts of the world. Crawl if you want, I am gong to run full force. What do we want? Equality! When do we want it? Uh...maybe when you get around to it, no hurry, I don't want to rock the boat and make you upset, I am fine in my hiding place.


"Dont show me a seed and tell me it's a rose, but let me see it grow and blossom and we will enjoy it's fragrance together!" This can be interpreted differently. You have to plant the seed. You have to nurture the growing plant. Before you can smell the rose you will prick your finger several times. If you let the plant fend for itself, you won't get to see the blossom.


Any group that stands for equality and acceptance is not a disservice to anything.. I totally agree.


Might not changing tack completely and link with civil war enactment groups to show that we are only dressing to play a part and are otherwise just ordinary folk? Maybe leaving love and sex way behind might flip the coin. They get so many people to come and watch them. I think too many here focus on the sexual part of the LGB movement. It wasn't (isn't) about who schtups who. They could do that on the sly anyway. It is about being able to be with the person you want to be with. It is about being able to live your life as you should be able to. The focus on sexuality is mostly the mainstream media. Sex sells.

The TG community keeps tripping over this whole issue. It will be 42 years since Stonewall. It was mostly Drag Queens who were the center of that. We should be proud of that part. The LGBT community took us in even though as has pointed out over and over, we weren't about the sexuality. That was not a bad association for usfor the early part. But as is also stated here over and over and over, we are not gay. So what has happened? You go to a gay bar and although you will be accepted there, you are not part of that scene. You are in reality treated as a little sibling. They (and I don't even have a clue why Bisexuals are even still included because they really have not bee discriminated against) don't see the TG community as an asset. Why? Because the majority of TG's can go away and not be seen. You can have a job, a family, hold places esteem, because you prefer to hide in plain sight. No one says you can't have a house. The majority don't even support the community which has dragged us along for over 40 years. What is the first thing you say when someone outs you. You pull the Larry Craig line "I am NOT gay!"

Do we need "them". Yes we do. They make noise and we need noise to be noticed. Do they need us? Like a scuba diver needs an anchor.

[Gillian Gigs]

Some one once said, "my enemy's enemy is my friend". The problem being that as long as the enemy remains the same we all have the common goal of beating this "enemy". I am not sure that these "other communities" are interested in us other than adding to their numerical support. I am all for the rights and freedoms that we all need, but we will all get "tarred" with the same brush at the same time. Not knowing all of the aggenda's of some of these other groups, I am left to wonder if we are being helped or not.

[AKAMichelle]

I personally don't see that we get much benefit in that organization. We are added on as an after thought and are forgotten easily since most cd'ers who are part of the group are hidden. The ones who are out most of the time fit under the other letters of the organization better.

I guess this is what really disappoints me in the organization is that the hetero TG people are just not represented.

[JulieK1980]

I guess this is what really disappoints me in the organization is that the hetero TG people are just not represented.

Sadly, because they are fairly often vacant and unknown. Hard to fight for that which is not seen.

[Badtranny]

I guess this is what really disappoints me in the organization is that the hetero TG people are just not represented.

Well, that's our own fault then isn't it?

Unfortunately, I'm no help to you because even though I'm "out", I'm a bona fide fairy, but there ARE some straight CD's out there fighting the good fight. Allie SF and Melissa Rose come to mind immediately as a couple of CD gals who like gals (NOT lesbians!) who are out and about all over the place. There also both very friendly and approachable and generally just fantastic ambassadors for the hetero CD crowd.

All you need is a few million more just like them. ;-)

[Rianna Humble]

I honestly have nothing in common with the LGB part of the spectrum.

I don't understand. Does this mean that you don't consider yourself human? Or that you don't consider Human Rights to be important? Or does it mean something else?

My old boss in Paris used to say that we are all bipeds and our lot on this earth is to do the best that we can. I think that I agree with his sentiment.

It is ironic that at the start of the LGB human rights movement, there were trans folk on the front lines because they recognised how important human rights for all are, yet now we have trans folk who don't want the support that the LGB human rights activists are offering to us.

As a gay student put it in a meeting to discuss LGB and T issues "Trans people are suffering the same sort of thing that the LGB community suffered 30 and 40 years ago. We have a duty to stand with them just as they stood with us".

I actually feel sorry for someone who would rather forgo that kind of support than have anyone question their sexuality.



I guess this is what really disappoints me in the organization is that the hetero TG people are just not represented.

I sort of agree with you if I reword it slightly. What disappoints me is how few hetero transgender people are willing to get involved.

There are cross-dressers of all kinds and transsexuals at various stages in the support group I attend, but I can probably count on one finger how many members of the group will take part in any human rights demonstration.

[AllieSF]

Well stated Rhianna. When we stand as the T, we in effect are standing for all. We are lucky to be included in this community.

[Eryn]

I personally don't see that we get much benefit in that organization. We are added on as an after thought and are forgotten easily since most cd'ers who are part of the group are hidden. The ones who are out most of the time fit under the other letters of the organization better.

I guess this is what really disappoints me in the organization is that the hetero TG people are just not represented.

I can think of a huge benefit I get from that organization. In my state "T" is included in the non-discrimination statute that was originally intended to protect gays. "T" was probably included more for the benefit of TS individuals, but the umbrella covers straight CDers just fine. I don't intend to test the effectiveness of the statutes, but having the safety net is a definite benefit.

[Fab Karen]

NO, that doesn't cause people to think that about TG people. If you're not gay & someone polite thinks you might be, you just smile & say,"no, I'm only into women" & go on your way. If it bothers you deeply, you need to discuss it with a therapist.

"don't flaunt it"
Tell that to all the heterosexual couples you see in public just holding hands or kissing. It's about freedom & equality.


Men standing with women, LGB people standing with us, whites standing with black people, etc. United we stand, divided we fall. Our enemies WANT us divided.

[Melissa Rose]

Bigotry, hatred and discrimination hurts everyone in some form or another. JFK said "...when one man is enslaved, all are not free". I believe the sentiment applies here. I'm going to take a chance and say the T community probably benefits more from being included in LGBT than the LGB community benefits from including the T community. There is strength in numbers so every voice helps.

As long as someone views and treats me with humanly respect, they can think I'm gay, bi or straight. I've even been mistaken for a lesbian a few times. L, G, B and/or T is just a label and only defines a part of me. The thoughts and beliefs of others do not change who or what I am. It does not matter to me that LGB is sexual preference while T is gender preference. I'm grateful for the trails blazed and doors opened by others regardless of who they are. They made it possible for me to be as out in the mainstream as I am (which is a lot). I hope I leave a slightly clearer trail or door a little more open after I walk through it. One day I hope there is no need for a LGBT community - the day when each group becomes an accepted part of the mainstream and we all are part of the same community.

[Chickhe]

No, but I always thought it sounds like a sandwich. BLT...

[patti.jean]

Being Transgender and being part of the gay community is more about humanity then your sexuality. I know it is difficult for many of us and our families, who have never associated with the gay community, to embrace this. We may think being transgendered has enough stigma without mixing gay into it. The following are some points on how embracing the gay community has been beneficial for me.

Acceptance
Since the beginning when I started going out I have been going to gay bars and have always been accepted. Now gay bars are one of my venues of choice, not only for the acceptance but also socially as a place, where I have friends. Then there are many transgendered events hosted by the local gay bars, of course there are the drag shows, but there is also much more. In Western Michigan the Douglas Dunes Resort host one of the largest TG weekend events twice a year. The TG community is always welcomed at the Dunes but these weekends the emphasis is on the TG community. There is much more that I could go into but the gay community does accept us and is compassionate about TG equality. There are also other local bars that support the transgendered community with events.

Support
In Western Michigan, we have recently started a transgendered support group as part of The Network, a local GLBT organization. We started out small but at our last monthly meeting had a broad range of TG demographics represented. There were CDs just coming out, a 13 year old FTM with his mother and grandmother with him, and a broad spectrum of CDs. It was heartwarming to be able to answer so many questions at the meeting and the support has continued with exchanges of emails and follow up meetings. I have been part of this group for several months and it is great to see our vision fulfilled of lessening the pain for others that we have all experienced. What started out with just few people is growing and making a difference. This would never have happen without the support of the The Network and the gay community.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I really really find it hard to swallow the subtle homosexual (self?) hating that goes on in here..

BY FAR the LGB community embraces us more than the hetero community..its not perfect...we are the last letter in LGBT for sure..
But there is no Hetero/Straight/Trans community...there is no other community that allows a T stuck on the end..

Rianna I like what you said..
"I actually feel sorry for someone who would rather forgo that kind of support than have anyone question their sexuality."

[Schatten Lupus]

I don't see what the big deal about being associated with homosexuals is anyways. So what if someone calls you gay? Even if you're 100% hetero, being called gay, or someone thinking you are gay, really isn't that big of a deal. It may not be accurate, but it really isn't that big of a deal. When people think we are pedophiles, that is a very big deal and worth every last effort to correct. But to be called gay? I've known several heterosexual, non TG/CD men who many people (myself included) have thought were gay, and all they do is so no and shrug it off.



I guess this is what really disappoints me in the organization is that the hetero TG people are just not represented.
Well, the hetero TG crowd does stay in the closet more often than homo TGs. It may because homosexuals have more experience with coming out and dealing with fallout from coming out. But in the end, that particular group doesn't tend to be very vocal, or out in force themselves.

[TGMarla]

I never said anything even remotely akin to hatred towards the LGB community. When I said that I have nothing in common with them, I'm hit with this:


I don't understand. Does this mean that you don't consider yourself human? Or that you don't consider Human Rights to be important? Or does it mean something else?

Nit picker. My point, as you well know, is that trans folks, meaning crossdressers, are overwhelminly hetero people. As such, they usually do not like being thought of as gay any more than gay people like being thought of as hetero. And the "LGB" part of the equation is all gay to one extent or another. I'm not gay-bashing here, either. It's just a fact. Nor am I denouncing the support of that community. But the T part of the equation is very often shunned by the rest of this entire community. Crossdressers are very often looked down upon by the gay community as some kind of horrid aberration. And to those in the rest of society, being lumped in with the gay communtiy leads to the misconception that crossdressers are all gay. After all, why else would a man want to wear a dress? Obviously it's so they can appeal to men. Pure logic, right? NOT!

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs. The OP wondered if being lumped into this community was a disservice to trans folks. From the overwhelming sentiment in most of the responses, I'd say it is not a disservice, since it brings greater awareness to this community. But it does lead to common misconceptions. That's the only point I was making. So let's not slow-roast me merely for trying to clarify a point.

[Sally24]

Gays, lesbians, and bisexuals are all terms that deal with sexual preference whereas transgender has nothing to do with sexual preference.
That's not entirely the case. We have many here that are GLB as well as the fact that for those that transition, that may in the eyes of the public change them from heterosexual to homosexual if they are attracted to members of their new sex.

We are all members of a minority that involves how our brains are wired.

You can't tell by looking at us that we are a member of GLBT.

You might as well separate the gay men from the lesbian woman as they have little in common. That just wouldn't make sense. I think our inclusion in the GLBT is a very good thing overall.

[Loni]

well seeing as how i live in Ca here on the left coast. and love guns, but i am treated as a nut job and have to fear some cops.

just change a couple words and it ='s transgendered aka cross dressers.

sadly there will always be those who fear any kind of change of even just different then them selves. no amount of education will change there minds,
only can we hope to prevail is by working with the youth and let there minds know our way is ok.

but even that is a slippery slop.

as for being labeled as a gay person, i would be ok with it..as long as it is as a lesbian ;-)...i know bad joke.

but history has shown even keeping strange bed fellows (not good thoughts here) is the only true way to be free and make some head way, as cross dressers some times feed upon our selves, as most never leave the dark safety of the closet. we will always be in the minority and need to have the help of a much larger and openly in your face kinda group.

but as posted earlier it would be a loss for all it too many letters got into the title. one can help by adding a group, but too many groups of to many "styles" can water down any hope of not killing all with infighting.

maybe in 100 or more years, to be a guy trying to look like a pretty woman (and not trying to find sex as) will not be something main stream America (or your country) fears.

anything good or lasting takes a life time, sometimes many life times to build.

Loni

[RachelOKC]

But the T part of the equation is very often shunned by the rest of this entire community. Crossdressers are very often looked down upon by the gay community as some kind of horrid aberration.

I'm sure this happens, but it's not been my experience in almost twenty years of freely and happily associating with the gay community as a reasonably out TG. I'm hard pressed to think of one single moment during all that time where I personally witnessed this. I just can't think of any bad examples (does casual disinterest count as bad?) but I can think of countless examples of where gay people were very friendly and accepting toward me.

I can however think of countless examples of TGs bashing the gay community...and other TGs.

I wonder if this perceived shunning is an example of one reaping what one sows.


And to those in the rest of society, being lumped in with the gay communtiy leads to the misconception that crossdressers are all gay. After all, why else would a man want to wear a dress? Obviously it's so they can appeal to men. Pure logic, right? NOT!

Once again, SFW about misconceptions? The educated are likely to know the difference and the ignorant often aren't willing to learn. Do we go through life with a chip on our shoulder about every misconception that people have about us? Do we have to set everyone straight, no pun intended? Strikes me as a sad life for people who do.

If we're not going to be screwing, what does it matter if I'm gay or not? It shouldn't and it doesn't.

[TGMarla]

I wonder if this perceived shunning is an example of one reaping what one sows.

So now I'm sowing some kind of bad mojo? Sheesh! Seems to me this thread is turning into some kind of pecking party. I've been on this forum for years, and I've read countless examples of what it is I'm saying. I'm very glad your experience has been different. As for me, I've seen examples of both. But if you're going to sit there and suggest that I'm gay-bashing, then you've manufactured something in you own head.

[RachelOKC]

So now I'm sowing some kind of bad mojo? Sheesh! Seems to me this thread is turning into some kind of pecking party. I've been on this forum for years, and I've read countless examples of what it is I'm saying. I'm very glad your experience has been different. As for me, I've seen examples of both. But if you're going to sit there and suggest that I'm gay-bashing, then you've manufactured something in you own head.

You'll note that I said "one" as opposed to "you." That you chose to take it personally was up to you.

This does demonstrate the point about having a chip on one's shoulder, I think.

[Rianna Humble]

OK, perhaps I should have turned it around instead of asking Marla to explain what she meant. Here goes:

Marla, you are a member of the human race, so are people in the LGB communities - that's something in common

Marla, you live in a country that declared from the outset "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gays and Lesbians believe in being equal and enjoying those unalienable rights - that's something in common

You were born with two arms, two legs, one head - so were people in the GLB communities - that's something in common

The LGBT communities fight for your human rights - that's something in common

Transgendered folks (including cross-dressers) were amongst the first to strike a blow for Lesbian and Gay rights at Stonewall - that is something in common.

But by all means believe that you have nothing in common with folks in the LGB communities and then wonder why they do not appreciate that attitude.

[Schatten Lupus]

I'm sure this happens, but it's not been my experience in almost twenty years of freely and happily associating with the gay community as a reasonably out TG. I'm hard pressed to think of one single moment during all that time where I personally witnessed this. I just can't think of any bad examples (does casual disinterest count as bad?) but I can think of countless examples of where gay people were very friendly and accepting toward me.
My experience is about the same. Actually as of now I've been more comfortable being out to my gay friends than straight, and they have typically been more understanding and supportive. One of my gay friends is even constantly asking me when I'm ready to go out so she can help me pick something to wear, do my make-up, and help me look my best. Another one thinks it's cool to have another girl to talk to.


I can however think of countless examples of TGs bashing the gay community...and other TGs.
All too true. I quit one MtF transsexual forum because it was essentially a forum for bashing cross dressers, and ridiculing others on why "they really aren't trans." There is some of that here, but that other site had more threads for apologies for bad behavior than actual discussion threads.


Once again, SFW about misconceptions?
I think it's based in the conception that many people have that they can control what people think of them. And why shouldn't they? We are constantly bombarded with messages that we must do this, this, and this so people will see us the way we want them to. People put so much time and effort into trying to portray a certain image through clothing and body language, and yet there will always be people who see something else.
Most people probably assume cross dressers are gay because very typically women are attracted to men (and vice versa), and so someone wanting to appear as a woman will, based upon past experience seeing women and men being the norm, be attracted to men. Someone thinking you are gay is not that big of a deal. Being called a lazy bum for being a Liberal is far more degrading, and even that is very insignificant.
So instead of getting worded up about something nobody really cares about, why not focus on putting and end to the labels that should be fought, like child molester, mentally ill, and sick perverted ****s? Such labels are actually damaging, and can be a very big deal.

[Starling]

I was taken for gay at a place I worked for several years; and I only found out much later, because nobody at work treated me any differently, or even mentioned it until I innocently said something that contradicted that perception. That nonchalance would not have happened before Gay Liberation.

And if I had been labeled as gay when I was a (royally balled-up) teenager, I would have been devastated, because the only thing I knew about gender and/or sexuality back then was that a) boys would beat me up and b) girls wouldn't want to have sex with me (in my dreams).

All the hard work, organizing and sacrifices--and the fun!--of the gay community have changed the world. We automatically benefit when prejudices are challenged. And now, when I don't even consider myself a man, people are free to see me however they want. I'm much happier, and I hope they are, too.

:) Lallie

[TGMarla]

Again, Rianna, you're nit picking what I said. And what's more, you know it. Sure I have arms and legs, but so do child molesters. Should we accept the support of bank robbers and members of the Klan simply because we all have arms and legs? My point, as you well know, is that the other three groups are lumped to gether due to sexual preference. Trans folks are such because of gender expression, and the two are quite different. Furthermore, I never said I didn't appreciate anyone's support, in fact, quite the opposite. Yet you wish to paint me with such a brush.

And Rachel, you know darn well what you were insinuating, so don't hide behind a thin veil of syntax. You both took my comments out of context to further your own viewpoints, and decided to use me as a pinata to do so. I have no chip on my shoulder towards anyone, and I don't appreciate your suggesting that I do. I merely furthered the suggestion that the OP put forth, that "T" and "LGB" are quite different. It's a valid point. However, to make the jump that since I find that point valid, that I run around gay bashing, or that I don't appreciate any support that is given from that sector of society is gratuitous and wrong. That's all I suggested, and you know it.

[RachelOKC]

Whatever you say Marla, you seem know what I think and mean better than I do. :)

[NicoleScott]

"Transgender is separate from Gay, Lesbian and Bi because those are sexual orientations and Transgender is not about sexual attraction. "

Recognize those words? Rianna said that in "When do CD's become TV's?" March 9, 2011

It's good to see that Rianna and Marla agree about that. The rest is just nit picking over Marla's use of "nothing in common..."

[Starling]

Really, this whole thread is just nit-picking, except for statements like "being lumped in with gays hurts us." That's downright depressing, no matter why the poster believes it.

:) Lallie

[Babeba]

Somebody on page 2 mentioned it, but I'll say it again to emphasize it!

When the Stonewall riots happened, it was in response to the arrest of crossdressing/T people who couldn't just blend into the community after police came to bust up a bar which was friendly to the sorts of people other places would kick out. The only people who got into trouble with the police/arrested were the ones who were wearing opposite sex clothing, and the entire GLBTQ community came up in arms to help and support them. Stonewall was one of the strongest moments in rallying the GLBTQ community in the first place, so distancing the trans community from the rest of everyone else would be really insulting to everyone involved.

The last Pride festival I went to was absolutely enormous - there were people from quite literally every single walk of life there. Prominent local businesses ran floats in the parade. School groups came out in support to march. All of us watching joined the parade down to the fairgrounds. Gay pride isn't really about sexual orientation, it's about saying it's okay for people to be themselves and be in a positive atmosphere that accepts them, and showing the whole world that loving everyone for who they are and the people THEY love is really just one great big happy thing to do; and that the REAL crime against humanity isn't expressing who and what you are but hurting people for things about themselves they can't really change!

Also, there are SOOO many people on here who are unhappy about being referred to as 'transgendered,' as they are still very much male and very much enjoy it. If they're not about the gender, and the clothes just feel sensuously good to them - isn't that more of a sex thing than a gender thing? Just so we're clear that the bread is being buttered on both sides, here! How many fetish crossdressing websites are there out there? How is that NOT a sexuality thing?

[Badtranny]

Well this is fascinating.

So the battle lines have been drawn separating two camps. On one side we have the LGBT crowd and on the other we have the T (we don't need no stinking LGB) camp. Apparently the dividing issue is loosely based on sexuality, and both sides seem to agree that the "T" part of LGBT is an issue of expression rather than sexual preference.

We have passionate people on both sides but my humble observation (ahem) is every time a wedge issue is being used to divide a community, the success of the division depends entirely on a misunderstanding of the the dang wedge issue. So as is almost always the case, we need to better define what the wedge is, and maybe take another look at what we think we agree on.

I submit that the "T" is in fact rooted in sexuality.

Let me explain. Every CD on this board would agree that the early days of cross dressing were literally sparkling with sexual energy right? There are many CDs on this very board that will openly admit to having sex while cross dressed or at least wanting to. There are just as many who admit that cross dressing does tend to rev the motor a bit. There are some CDs for whom their gender expression has become part of their lifestyle, but I'm convinced that for a large number of CDs, it's almost purely just a catalyst for a "good time" and then the clothes as well as the cross dresser are right back in the closet until nature calls again. If you will concede that the very act of gender expression can be fraught with sex and sexuality, I will concede that on the face of it, that alone doesn't prove my point.

Allow me to continue. Let's examine the "straight" male cross dresser. I presume that these are the people that make up the majority of the "T" (we don't need no stinking LGB) camp. This particular segment makes no secret or apologies for their attraction to the fairer sex. Some have said that they are so attracted to women that they want to "become" them. "And what is so wrong about that?" well let's consider that for a bit. If a straight man was to magically become a woman yet retain his former sexuality, then he would by definition be a lesbian. (a rather active one we could guess) Indeed many of these straight CDs have proudly proclaimed that they were lesbians in men's bodies. (loathsome as that may be)
So if we were to take away the advances of the GLB (it's a Wonderful Life style) then the straight married CD who took great pains to look as pretty and feminine as possible would of course be unable to show his wife any affection in public without offending quite a few people. Heaven forbid those people find out that the "dyke" is actually a man because any community that won't accept lesbians is likely to be openly hostile to a "freak" in pantyhose.

One more thing. If the "T" is supposed to represent the entire TG spectrum, how do you reconcile someone like me? (it always comes back to me doesn't it) If I weren't a TS, than I would definitely be gay. I like men. Big strong masculine men, but I digress. When my transition is complete I will resemble a woman who is in a relationship with a man. (fingers crossed) To the great unwashed I will appear to be straight, even if I still have my tiny pickle.

The straight male CD who is openly fraternizing with his female partner will appear to be homosexual and the admitted homosexual (me) will appear to be straight. Ironic isn't it?

So tell me again how the "T" is not in fact woven into the fabric of the LGBT?

[Rianna Humble]

Again, Rianna, you're nit picking what I said.

I still don't understand why you want nothing to do with the people who publicly defended your right to cross-dress without being arrested.


"Transgender is separate from Gay, Lesbian and Bi because those are sexual orientations and Transgender is not about sexual attraction. "

Recognize those words? Rianna said that in "When do CD's become TV's?" March 9, 2011

Fortunately, Nicole, acknowledging that we are separate but work in common does not support someone's assertion that we have nothing in common. The GLBT communities have done a lot to further people's human rights including those of cross-dressers even though the majority of the activists are not themselves transgendered.

WHY do so many people on these forums want to spend so much time distancing themselves from others rather than acknowledging or even celebrating what unites us?

[Starling]

...Ironic isn't it?...

Rather brilliant, I think.

:) Lallie

[joanna4]

I don't want to be put into that category not that I have anything against it. I always thought that transgender shouldnt be in that group either.

[Claire Cook]

That's not entirely the case. We have many here that are GLB as well as the fact that for those that transition, that may in the eyes of the public change them from heterosexual to homosexual if they are attracted to members of their new sex.

We are all members of a minority that involves how our brains are wired.

You can't tell by looking at us that we are a member of GLBT.

You might as well separate the gay men from the lesbian woman as they have little in common. That just wouldn't make sense. I think our inclusion in the GLBT is a very good thing overall.

I agree with Sally, and think that to some extent we are missing the point of the LBGT movement in this discussion. It is less about sexual preference than acceptance and rights in society. And if this relates to being able to dress as we want where we want, using the ladies' room and not being hassled by TSA for CD'ing, all the better for us. :2c:

[NicoleScott]

The question the OP asked (paraphrased) is: does association with the LGB movement work for against T folks. Some say for, some say against. I don't think that Marla's use of "nothing" was intended to be taken so dadgum literally, and she got beat up over it. Would a confession from Marla that it was a poor choice of words satisfy, or do you really just not like her answer?
But tell me this: a hetero man who likes to make up and dress in private, doesn't go out, isn't looking for a hook-up, but just likes to enjoy a little femme time at home in private, what does that CD have in common with the LGB movement? What does gay rights have to do with a person's gender expression in private? Maybe some T's have nothing in common with LGB's. Except being human, two arms, two legs, etc. if you want to nit pick.

[TGMarla]

I still don't understand why you want nothing to do with the people who publicly defended your right to cross-dress without being arrested.
I never said that. Those are words and thoughts that you inferred, and attributed to me. You took what I said completely out of context, and instead of reading and understanding what I actually said, you instead completely twisted around what I said and made some kind of big deal out of it.

My original comment was that while I agree that there is power in numbers (acknowledging the support of the rest of the entire group), I have little in common with LGB people (acknowledging the OP's point that started this whole thread). From this, you somehow determined that I want nothing to do with LGB people. Now, BadTranny has an interesting argument, but it is still in essence splitting hairs when it comes to the complicated self-sexuality of the MTF heterosexual crossdresser. And I seriously doubt that the LGB community, all of whom openly admit to enjoying sex with their same gender, would take this viewpoint and suddenly see some kind of strong kinship with T people, namely the hetero crossdressers.

Sure, there are some gay crossdressers. Take BadTranny for instance. Certainly gay crossdressers have a commonality with the LGB community, since they are in fact gay. But the only thing that the hetero CD crowd has in common with them is that they both crossdress. There are some who fantasize at being "taken" by a man while dressed, but it often goes no further than some odd fantasy. This is why I said that I have little in common with the LGB community. But I never said anything even close to "I don't want to be associated with" or "I shun the support of" this segment of society.

Thank you, Nicole. I appreciate your comments a great deal. You help to articulate what it is I'm saying.

[Inna]

LGBT, GLBT, LGBTQ, vanilla, chocolate, which one do you take? Democrats, Republicans, Teaparty, within each group there are gays, lesbians, hetero, homo, sapiens and nondescribable breads, so which one did you a favor? Which one pulled you in and gave you home when you were dressed in "Not your clothing theme" Which one said, "IT IS OK" at which party did you feel free and not judged?

When you dress and assume the feminine role (weather in your heart or just a fancy fantasy) are you gay, because if you still like girls then you are! If you dress and like boys then are you straight?

As you see it is all mambo jumbo, twisted shreds of misconceptions. If a group of people, invite my sorry ass and respect me, give me shelter, cares, for who I am, then I am proud of calling them my family and I shall do the same for them.

[Kaz]

Well said Alexia,

I find this sort of thread really depressing, but then I guess it is as a result of the medium mainly. Stick us all in a room together and we will have it all sorted in no time!

I am not gay, lesbian or bi, though I have at times been bi-curious and I am sure if it worked for me then I might be... therefore, I could say quite legitimately that 'my' CDing is nothing to do with the GLB community. A major problem some of us have is the perception that because we like to crossdress we must be gay... and we have to spend a lot of effort explaining that is is not the case (if indeed that is the case). Of course some of us are gay. Nothing wrong with that, a lot of my friends are gay and I am OK with everyone, whatever their 'persuasion'. I just don't want people to assume I am if I am not.

And so there we go... if we are part of the GLB community this will always rub some people up the wrong way for valid reasons. Is this gay bashing? I don't think so!

But do we have a lot in common? Of course we do because we are a minority community that is mostly misunderstood and frequently suffering from prejudice in the broader society. And that is why the link!

One day, we will stop beating people up because they do not fit into a certain 'neat and tidy' category that fits my 'persuasion' and accept that we all have equal validity (accepting that some people have a problem with everyone being 'equal') and should command equal respect.

And that goes for this thread too, as we have nicely categorised people into 'camps' again. This is the sad old story of the human race... we are tribal, and will always revert to this sort of behaviour, unless we actively stop behaving this way.

Me.. I think guitarists should be put on the endangered species list. Now there's a category to go after! Or why don't we beat drummers up next.. should they be regarded as being musicians?

Jeez... life is too short!

[Sweet Sabrina]

Here is two more cents thrown in the well for discussion. When one uses a label on anything it identifies it as different. If one truly wants to be rid of bigotry and throw in racism as well then get rid of labels. I am a bisexual crossdressing male but I don't go around saying I am a BCM. I have the same problem with the race issue. Get rid of African American or Mexican American or Irish American etc etc. If you are a citizen you are simply American You don't walk around saying "I'm a gay or lesbian American" do you? The first step to me is to get rid of the labels and go by the actions of people and their character instead of using the lump opinion one has of a collective group. If we choose to keep the labels then I think we are destined to keep the ignorance and hate alive

[dawnmarrie1961]

No. That's just a label. Use it or don't use it. It's up to you. Personally I don't like labels. They are irritating. I usually cut them off clothing. Labels are always going to be there. It gives things and people a perceived value, clout, and makes them easy to identify or target them. Never blame the label makers for a bad product. Blame the consumer for buying into it in the first place.
It is far better to conduct yourself in an honorable manner, try to be an example to others, so that they might learn the truths about us that we are nothing to be fearful of. We simply want to live our lives the way we wish, as ourselves.

Be the example...not the problem.

[Shelly Preston]

I think the benefits of being part of a larger group has helped us as a community

Being transgender may not be based on sexuality but for the vast majority of the public we are percieved as being gay or bisexual. Most are not aware that sexuality and gender are separate issues

I would suggest as a group trying to fight for rights on our own would have been a lot more difficult. Even now with the aid of modern technology its still not easy to get support for our issues. I wonder how many would turn up at public meeting in support of fighting for trans issues. I suspect not too many due to the vast differences in our lifestyles and personal circumstances

We need all the support we can get and the GLB community understand diversity

I can understand those who dont like being linked to the GLB community but it easier and more productive for all of us to be linked to them.

[Violetgray]

This is by far the best posting on this subject. Once again Zinnia knocks it out of the park:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ZJemptv#p/u/42/YYbP0uko9dg

[Inna]

Wholy c...w! I see what you imply by The Best Posting on the subject but, for love of God, this girl does not breath, she must be an alien, lets banish her from LGBT cause we would need to add yet another letter, Oh my! :)

[NicoleScott]

Being transgender may not be based on sexuality but for the vast majority of the public we are percieved as being gay or bisexual. Most are not aware that sexuality and gender are separate issues.

How true. And this is a reason some people believe that T's don't need to be included with the GLB group. Continued association continues the misconception.

There's a lot of talk on the forum about "painting with a broad brush".
- cd's dress for sexual excitement. "Not ME! I'm a woman inside! Don't paint me with that broad brush!"
- but when one says: "public perception is that cd's are gay. I'm not gay, so don't paint me with that broad brush" then we hear "how dare you offend gays by saying you're not! Why not let pople think you are? It's no big deal!" Painting with a broad brush suddenly acceptable?
Is it asking too much to allow a hetero crossdresser to choose not to be considered gay? Don't give me the "ram it down our throats" argument. That's bull. Nobody's doing that. Simply "I'm not gay".
So there are good arguments favoring T exclusion from the GLB group, as the OP asked for opinions.
Violet, that video was a very compelling argument in favor of inclusion.

[Starling]

...When one uses a label on anything it identifies it as different. If one truly wants to be rid of bigotry...then get rid of labels...

Yours is an excellent statement of a post-millenial ideal, Sabrina, but facts on the ground are: we will be named by someone else if we do not name ourselves; there will be people who hate us and want to hurt us no matter what we are called.

Furthermore, we are a protected class (in most places) because we need protection.

:) Lallie

PS: The GLBT movement is a coalition of people with related, not identical, lifestyles. Gays are much more acceptable to the mainstream than Ts. We gain acceptance--and protection--from being associated with them.

[donnalee]

Well this is fascinating.

So the battle lines have been drawn separating two camps. On one side we have the LGBT crowd and on the other we have the T (we don't need no stinking LGB) camp. Apparently the dividing issue is loosely based on sexuality, and both sides seem to agree that the "T" part of LGBT is an issue of expression rather than sexual preference.

We have passionate people on both sides but my humble observation (ahem) is every time a wedge issue is being used to divide a community, the success of the division depends entirely on a misunderstanding of the the dang wedge issue. So as is almost always the case, we need to better define what the wedge is, and maybe take another look at what we think we agree on.

I submit that the "T" is in fact rooted in sexuality.

Let me explain. Every CD on this board would agree that the early days of cross dressing were literally sparkling with sexual energy right? There are many CDs on this very board that will openly admit to having sex while cross dressed or at least wanting to. There are just as many who admit that cross dressing does tend to rev the motor a bit. There are some CDs for whom their gender expression has become part of their lifestyle, but I'm convinced that for a large number of CDs, it's almost purely just a catalyst for a "good time" and then the clothes as well as the cross dresser are right back in the closet until nature calls again. If you will concede that the very act of gender expression can be fraught with sex and sexuality, I will concede that on the face of it, that alone doesn't prove my point.

Allow me to continue. Let's examine the "straight" male cross dresser. I presume that these are the people that make up the majority of the "T" (we don't need no stinking LGB) camp. This particular segment makes no secret or apologies for their attraction to the fairer sex. Some have said that they are so attracted to women that they want to "become" them. "And what is so wrong about that?" well let's consider that for a bit. If a straight man was to magically become a woman yet retain his former sexuality, then he would by definition be a lesbian. (a rather active one we could guess) Indeed many of these straight CDs have proudly proclaimed that they were lesbians in men's bodies. (loathsome as that may be)
So if we were to take away the advances of the GLB (it's a Wonderful Life style) then the straight married CD who took great pains to look as pretty and feminine as possible would of course be unable to show his wife any affection in public without offending quite a few people. Heaven forbid those people find out that the "dyke" is actually a man because any community that won't accept lesbians is likely to be openly hostile to a "freak" in pantyhose.

One more thing. If the "T" is supposed to represent the entire TG spectrum, how do you reconcile someone like me? (it always comes back to me doesn't it) If I weren't a TS, than I would definitely be gay. I like men. Big strong masculine men, but I digress. When my transition is complete I will resemble a woman who is in a relationship with a man. (fingers crossed) To the great unwashed I will appear to be straight, even if I still have my tiny pickle.

The straight male CD who is openly fraternizing with his female partner will appear to be homosexual and the admitted homosexual (me) will appear to be straight. Ironic isn't it?

So tell me again how the "T" is not in fact woven into the fabric of the LGBT?Whew! I think this is the best thought out, most intelligent argument on the subject I've ever read. Remind me never to cross you, especially if it was off the cuff.
Violet, as much as I love and respect you and your posts (and I do), PLEASE! I would rather hear a cogent comment or a well turned phrase than be bludgeoned to death with verbosity. I had to stop from exhaustion halfway through that video. You're a comedian and a good one and I have great respect for your intelligence; I'm sure you know the effectiveness of one-liners.

[noeleena]

Hi,

I'v had to look at the same issues over here, tho in your county of the U S its been a bone of contenstion for those of us who dont fit in because we are intersexed,

when i was talking to one of your trans people what was said was we are not as accepted as i had first thought, So i said you mean to say because we are different we wont be accepted even in the G L B & may be T. nope.

Right , well it has happened to my friend who is intersex like me in another way, she was told in our lingo , bugger off & dont come back your not accepted here in this trans group ,

funny that as most were dress'ers, & i know most of them. so i said well that to me is a very hard hit below the belt,

So i then said would i be accepted in the U S , in her net work of trans friends & normal people who are not trans any thing , ...........right..... dont say intersex , any thing, got ya,
So even with in the trans community there is a cant accept difference of others,

For me im just a woman who's accepted as one .even tho im well known & so is my background its not an issue here or over the ditch in Austraila . any way i'v learnt quite a lot about people over the last 4 - 5 years on the forums & 14 years with people & a few groups, lots really.

Now most of my friends through the forums are dress'ers, they dont care im a intersexed woman at all. so theres a difference for my self ,

Just thought you'd like an other view of things,

Now you'r not going to hold that aganist this bloody kiwi are you, If you are going to throw those eggs at me at least send them by mail , he he.......oh sorry our planes are staying on the ground

...noeleena...