Homophobia, a problem?

[Gillian Gigs]

I am starting this in the hopes that we can have an honest dialogue on the subject of homophobia. I see that there are questions asked and talked about, but from my prospective this issue gets covered superficially. So, why are many males homophobic, this doesn’t have one answer, but I think that a deeper understanding of the why’s and wherefores will help the CD community in our quest for better acceptance. First off, I do not think that the gay community does us any favors when it comes to the general public’s perception that CD’ers are gay. Research shows that the vast majority of us are married heterosexual men that are happy to be male. The problem is that in most gay pride parades you see these costumes, and the drag queens and so by conclusion, men in dresses must be gay. I know that this sounds simplistic, but the news media, and television programs don't help matters either.
An observation of mine is that most women do not get “bent” out of shape about gays or lesbians. Having known many gays and lesbians in my life, I am saying this from their personal experiences in their relationships. Is it because most women are more comfortable in their sexuality? Then this would beg to ask, is homophobia based on a fear due to males having issues about their own sexuality? Having done my share of reading CD fiction, I find that there are common reoccurring themes. When you get into the more explicit sex fantasies, a theme is being forced into sex, or willingly having sex with another man. Yes, I to have had a couple of gay fantasies in my life, but this didn’t weigh one way or the other on me. Do gay fantasies play into a typical males homophobia? I do remember one incident that happened many years ago that came across as classic in the way a lot of men react to gays. This friend of mine and I were at a party of a general mix of people types. At the party were a couple of gay guys and I knew both of them. Into the evening the one I knew the best, started “hitting” on the friend that I had brought to this party. We were just two guys looking for girls to meet. Well, a fight broke out between the gay fellow and my friend, I thought that someone was going to get killed. To shorten the story, for years after the animosity between the two of them could be cut and eaten with a knife and fork. Oh the irony of how my friend hooked up with the one girl, whose sister was sharing a house with this same gay fellow.
This homophobia comes our way when we are in the community and these same individuals hit on us while we are doing what we enjoy. Let’s face it, some of you girls can do a great job of passing, and “dam” you can look pretty sexy too. Even if we do not do a good job of passing, shouldn’t we all have the freedom to do our thing without harassment, or getting “hit” on? Don’t we all want to avoid the situation, and the reaction like the one mentioned in the previous paragraph? So how do we deal with this homophobia? Is it possible to change the mind sets of homophobic individuals? Do we need to distance ourselves from the gay community, and the image that they are giving through their parades? Do we need to have our own CD pride parade? What can we do as a group to make life better for ourselves, so we can get more acceptance in the greater community?
I am seeking you thoughts on this subject, whether you are a CD, or you are transgendered, because we have all had to deal with homophobia at one time or another. How we approach this and how we deal with it can determine whether the homophobia increases, or decreases.

[JavaJunkie]

Homophobic people will be around for as long as we're on this earth hun. It's about learning how to deal with them and ignore the passing looks. Me? I'm gay through and through sweety, damn proud of it, and am not afraid to tell people if they ask. I had to deal with the worst homophobia......the kind that comes from within. Look at any older person and compare them with a younger person and what is the main difference you see in personality? The older people have come to realize that the only opinions that matter are their own and that of their loved ones. Most of them are happy being who they are and really could care less what anybody else thinks. Now us in the TG community have a harder time of this because we are judged so hypocritically by society. We also have to overcome our own ingrained homophobia....because there's nothing wrong with being attracted to a guy just as there's nothing wrong with being attracted to women. If this is what makes you happy then why would you deny yourself this happiness? Life is sooooo short and precious, and we should spend every moment of it living it to it's fullest.

As far as dealing with external homophobia, people are going to look honey, and some will stare. Shoot, some rude ones might even say something! What makes you the better person is being able to walk the other way with your head held high. I get this every day almost because even when I'm in drab I still present as in between genders and I'm quite happy with this presentation at this point in my life. It pleases me, and if it doesn't please you, then so what? I'm doing this for me, not for you. Love me for who I am not who you want me to be.

Now when we just can't keep the sparkles and glitter inside anymore, and we're out in public dressed of course people will look. Very few of us come out of the closet looking like a GG. It takes work and time to perfect the look. Personally though if a guy hits on me when i'm in a cute skirt or dress I take it as a compliment. To me, it's verification that somebody else thinks I'm attractive and I must be doing something right. Secondly why would you be offended by a guy hitting on you when you are presenting as a woman? If you don't like it, politely tell him you're not interested and move on. There's no sense in getting upset about men being men....who would know best but us? It's just too much of a waste of time and energy. I'd rather be happy thank you very much!

[Karren H]

Personally I think a lot of guys are embarrassed that they could be attracted to another male dressed like a female. And the show it with rage and anger. And there's a lot of homophobia here... Maybe not to an extreme but crossdressers who go out of their way to proclaim their "straightness"? I used to feel a little like that but that was before my son came out of the closet as being gay... And I accept that and like a lot of his friends who are also gay... So if someone wants to label me as being gay for crossdressing... Then fine. Let them think what they want. Straight people, gay people are all just people... It does not mater to me..

[JavaJunkie]

Oh and I wasn't speaking about you in particular Gillian sweety, it was more in generalities about the TG community as a whole.

[Gillian Gigs]

The point of getting "hit" on has more to do with the girls night out type of situation. Even when my daughter goes out for the night with her girl friends, they are having a girls night and they don't like getting "hit" on, because it is their night out with the girls. Everyone should have the right to doing their thing without feeling that they are some "chunk of Flesh" for anyone elses purchase. Maybe the better question is, "Is our CDing more sexual than we are willing the admit"?

[JavaJunkie]

I would have to say for the vast majority yes, CDing is sexual. People just don't want to admit it because they're embarrassed it turns them on. CDing is technically categorized as a fetish but I know we all hate that term.....so dirty >.<

If I'm having a girls night out hun, and I'm sure you already know this, we always go everywhere as a group. Sure we might not appreciate being hit on at that moment in time but that's why we have friends to distract them while we make the fast getaway :P But admit it though, girls like their guys to be aggressive (not in the bad sense) and fight for their attention whether they'd like to admit it or not. You can't just pick and choose when you'd like them to hit on you hun. I'm pretty sure if you and your girlfriends put up a strong enough front of solidarity then most guys wouldn't bother and the ones that do you can politely turn away. I just can't see getting upset or even really bothered that much about something like this. It might be annoying at times, but I sure do appreciate it when I'm in the mood to be hit on.

[WendyH]

IMHO, homophobia and transphobia are rooted is misogyny. Women are still seen as inferior to men for the most part, so men who "infect" themselves with anything related in people's minds to women are hated and feared as "traitors to the master gender". Sort of like "race traitors", i.e., whites who associated with nonwhites in the bad old days of the U.S. So men who wear dresses and makeup, men who like to sew, men who act a little "swishy", and men who "submit to another man" sexually are all lumped together as being more or less tainted with femininity and are therefore a threat to male superiority. Ridiculous? Yes. So I don't think we'll completely get rid of homophobia or transphobia until women are genuinely socially equal to men.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I would have to say for the vast majority yes, CDing is sexual. People just don't want to admit it because they're embarrassed it turns them on. CDing is technically categorized as a fetish but I know we all hate that term.....so dirty >.<

Be careful making broad sweeping statements. Crossdressing is not defined as a fetish. Some people have a fetish for crossdressing. There's a difference. There's a fetish for wearing leather too, but some people are just riding motorcycles.

[AllieSF]

Gillian, what do you mean being hit on in context to the homophobic theme of this thread. I go out all the time in San Francisco one of the most LGBT liberal and supporting big cities in the world. Gays and lesbians and a lot of Tpeople are everywhere. I see them, I talk with them and I go dancing with them. I have never been hit on by a gay guy, and for that matter by any straight guy who may be interested in testing the other side of the street. I must have a lousy personality and be ugly! LOL Most gay guys have no interest in Tgirls. Now bi-curious guys is another story, our admirers.

How do you define homophobic? Is it blatant or is it, "I do not want to associate with gay pride parades because someone, heaven forbid, might think that I am gay."? To me it is both, because what is wrong with someone thinking you are gay and they are wrong? Are you a Yankee fan or a Boston fan? Who the hell cares unless you are in the midst of a hostile crowd where it just might be an important consideration regarding your individual safety. Until you realize that being called gay or lesbian or a tranny is nothing, then you just may be considered homophobic deep down inside. The more you deny it the more obvious it gets.

We are happily a sub-group of the LGBT scene. We are tagging along and reaping benefits that others have sacrificed a lot to get for themselves. There efforts help us too. You don't like pride parades, by all means don't go. But what about all the families with little kids and mothers and fathers and friends who march in those "proudly", are they gay too? Hell no. They are supporters and do not care what narrow minded people think. Try it it really works.

[Frédérique]

I do not think that the gay community does us any favors when it comes to the general public’s perception that CD’ers are gay. The problem is that in most gay pride parades you see these costumes, and the drag queens and so by conclusion, men in dresses must be gay. I know that this sounds simplistic, but the news media, and television programs don't help matters either.

Well, first of all, let’s not anger the gay community by making such sweeping accusations. There are many sides to every community; in fact the community you happen to be a part of is rather fractious at this point in time. There is a public “face” of crossdressing that is put forth and reinforced by the media; in fact I would blame THEM, since they are openly engaged in keeping "normalcy" front and center. Not all types of crossdressing are seen by the public, so what is put on view is taken as gospel by those who never look too far. It’s up to individuals to think about truth and reality, and not let the media decide things for them…


Yes, I to have had a couple of gay fantasies in my life, but this didn’t weigh one way or the other on me. Do gay fantasies play into a typical males homophobia?

I wouldn’t know, since I’m most emphatically NOT a typical male, but I believe there is some truth to the notion that males are insecure about their sexuality, especially in this country. A lot of males put certain things “out of their mind” to live lives they feel are normal. In MY world, it’s normal to keep one’s options open and provide a counterpoint to polarized thinking…


Do we need to distance ourselves from the gay community, and the image that they are giving through their parades? Do we need to have our own CD pride parade? What can we do as a group to make life better for ourselves, so we can get more acceptance in the greater community?

Don’t distance yourself from ANYONE, unless you wish to make crossdressing into a form of asceticism. I pay no attention to whatever “image” a group is actively putting on display, because I abhor group-thinking and a herd-mentality. Look around – there are all types of crossdressers here, and it would be impossible to come up with one accepted image for all of us. We should begin by accepting each other within THIS community, and not seek to divide the party into small groups, all with their own agendas, i.e. let’s all get along, etc. I don’t mind being aligned with the gay community via their insistence of “drag” being a form of expression, indeed it doesn’t matter at all – I’m an individual at the periphery of the community, and I’m only here to befriend kindred spirits who may need a helping hand…

BTW, being “hit upon” is not a problem for me, or even an issue, since I AM withdrawn by nature, an ascetic of sorts, by choice…:straightface:

[Rianna Humble]

Hi Gillian, thank you for bringing up such a serious subject. I can't tell you why men are homophobic, despite my anatomy, that is just one more of the things I have never understood about how men behave.

When I was a local councillor in my old life, I was responsible for manythings on the Council, including equalities. Indirectly I was also responsible for encouraging our first openly lesbian councillor in my town to stand for election and later our first openly gay councillor. This was incidental to my responsibility for equalities and was done because I thought that they would make good councillors and because as far as I am concerned, someone's sexuality is a matter for them and should only concern me if they need my support.

For a number of reasons I'm sorry that you have introduced the secondary subject of how our association with the LGB communities may be perceived by others.

Firstly because there were many hetero trans folk on the front line at Stonewall because they knew that Human Rights are important whatever your sexuality.

Secondly because having made progress in the area of Human Rights, the LGB community saw that the Trans folk were being left behind and wanted to express their solidarity by including us.

They don't always get it right - but then who does (apart from me :heehee:)? They also don't always understand everything that we are going through, but at least they have offered the hand of friendship and support.

On the subject of how we react to the homophobia, I try not to react if the hatred is directed towards me, but will almost always react if it is directed against another.

You ask how we can change the hater's mind set, in part it depends on whether the hater has a mind whose set can be changed. You can try reasoning, it sometimes works if you get an individual homophobe on his own but virtually never when they run in packs.

One final note, I don't really want to pick nits, but I assumed that you meant that you were interested in our comments whether we are CD or TS since TG encompasses both.

[ReineD]

Here's a pretty good essay on the subject:

http://www.bidstrup.com/phobia.htm


The reasons trans/homophobes use to justify their fears:



It's not natural.
It's a perversion.
It's against God's law.
It's disgusting.


The true reasons for homophobia (and transphobia):



"Us vs. Them", a subconscious belief that if someone else is granted rights, it takes away from their own.
Loss of control over what is not understood.
A threat to one's world-views.
Fear that one may be homosexual himself.



I'm sure there are other reasons, and I'd like to add a few more:



Lack of widespread education about gender and sexual variance. It wasn't that long ago that homosexuality was pathologized in the DSM, and transsexuality still is (although I am sure this will also change eventually). The studies haven't made it to the mainstream, simply because most people don't fall within the GLBTQQA community.
Males form their male identities by rejecting everything that is feminine for themselves. It begins in grade 3 when boys think that girls have cooties.


I wouldn't immediately define this as misogyny. Men can not want to be feminine, while not hating females for being who they are. Most men that I know do not think themselves superior to women and do not hate them. They do acknowledge differences between the two genders though.

Also, I don't think that most people need to see a Pride parade with drag queens in order to assume that CDers are gay. Just the fact that a man wants to present as a woman is enough for people to believe there is a sexual motive and that he does this in order to appeal to males. As mentioned above, there is a dire need for widespread education about this.

Also, homo/transphobia is not limited to men. There are many women who are biased (or undeducated) as well, even about lesbians.

[JavaJunkie]

Be careful making broad sweeping statements. Crossdressing is not defined as a fetish. Some people have a fetish for crossdressing. There's a difference. There's a fetish for wearing leather too, but some people are just riding motorcycles.

*sigh* Fetish -–noun
1. an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.
2. any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion: to make a fetish of high grades.
3. Psychology . any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation.

You're acting just like the rest of them.....you think that a fetish is a bad thing. It's today's society and the media that has attached such a bad image with the word. Did you put women's clothing on only once and then stop? I thought not. Do you love how it makes you feel just the way I do? Do you treasure your time when you can let that inner girl go free? By technical definition then yes, you do have a fetish for crossdressing. Fetishes come in varying degrees....it's not just a 1 or a 0....there's a whole range of people who yes, might have the same passion (same meaning as a fetish btw in this context) for crossdressing as you do but who might do it more or less or consume more of who they are (i.e. I'm just as femme in drab as I am enfemme...it's who I am and it bleeds over). You have to separate yourself from the herd mentality as like Frederique said.

[SweetIonis]

I didn't read through the whole thread. Furthermore I have learned to avoid talking about religion and politics. But I will briefly state that part of the problem with homophobia today is that it is being used as a tool for politicians to get votes. It's really disgusting

[kimdl93]

I'll limit my response to one aspect of homophobia. I suspect from my own behavior (in the past) that homophobic males tend to "protest too much". I remember as a young "adult" being downright ugly to and about effeminate and suspected gay males. This inspite of the fact that I was already a CD and still a latent bisexual. I guess it was to emphasize my masculinity or perhaps to distract attention from my own sexual ambiguity. A friend called me on it...and I came to recognize and regret what I was doing.

[SweetIonis]

I'll limit my response to one aspect of homophobia. I suspect from my own behavior (in the past) that homophobic males tend to "protest too much". I remember as a young "adult" being downright ugly to and about effeminate and suspected gay males. This inspite of the fact that I was already a CD and still a latent bisexual. I guess it was to emphasize my masculinity or perhaps to distract attention from my own sexual ambiguity. A friend called me on it...and I came to recognize and regret what I was doing.

Me too. Although I wasn't seriously cross dressing, I would put on a pair of panties now and then. Still not sure why I started that.

But yeah, I was very hostile. I remember I had an openly gay uncle. I would not talk to him. What got me over it was I met a guy who was gay, although I didn't know it. Then when he told me he was gay, I understood there was no reason for me to harbor this type of hostility.

[ReineD]

I would have to say for the vast majority yes, CDing is sexual. People just don't want to admit it because they're embarrassed it turns them on. CDing is technically categorized as a fetish but I know we all hate that term.....so dirty >.<



You're acting just like the rest of them.....you think that a fetish is a bad thing.

While I agree with you that a fetish is not a bad thing (I don't think that Jive was saying it is), the fact remains there are many CDers for whom the dressing is no longer sexual, even if it did start out that way during their teenage years. You can't take your own position and apply it to everyone else.

As to the fetish aspect, it only becomes problematic when it has a negative impact in the CDer's life. There are some CDers who cease to be able to enjoy a mutually satisfying sex life with their partners, preferring instead to lose themselves in their femme fantasies. If the CDer in question is single and he just wishes to have casual sex with people, or he is happy being on his own, then it isn't an issue.

[Jenny Gurl]

Personally I think a lot of guys are embarrassed that they could be attracted to another male dressed like a female. And the show it with rage and anger. And there's a lot of homophobia here... Maybe not to an extreme but crossdressers who go out of their way to proclaim their "straightness"? I used to feel a little like that but that was before my son came out of the closet as being gay... And I accept that and like a lot of his friends who are also gay... So if someone wants to label me as being gay for crossdressing... Then fine. Let them think what they want. Straight people, gay people are all just people... It does not mater to me..

Karren, you have one lucky son to have a parent like you. You not only accept his born condition, but understand it. What a wonderful thing he has to have been born with a parent who will support him and love him unconditionally, well, unless he borrows a dress without asking and ruines it. :heehee: I know, gay doesn't mean crossdresser. Just thinking out loud how many children who are born either gay, crossdressers, or transgendered who had no say in how they were made but were born with 1 or both parents who don't understand and try to change who they are. Kudo's to you for being there for you son. :thumbsup:

[Debglam]

IMHO, homophobia and transphobia are rooted is misogyny. Women are still seen as inferior to men for the most part

I think you are on to something Wendy. I wouldn't say misogyny per se, but superiority. "Men" are supposed to be the pursuers, the ones in control in sexual relationships. "They" scope out the women at the bar, choose the one they want, and make the moves to get her. I think the idea that another man may be looking at them in that manner scares the hell out of some of them.

[Fab Karen]

( CD's ) Research has no scientific evidence either way.
Gay people have won more acceptance by going out & not hiding themselves. Experience is a great teacher in society.


Reine while perhaps not the majority, there are men who ASSUME women's dressing styles are to attract males.

[ReineD]

Reine while perhaps not the majority, there are men who ASSUME women's dressing styles are to attract males.

I totally agree with you! There are also women who dress specifically to attract men too, even if they claim otherwise! :D

[dawnmarrie1961]

Homophobia is alive and well and living in our minds, weather we want to admit it or not. Although I believe myself to be heterosexual, kind of the think therefore I am thing, I must admit to myself that such behavior is always in the realm of possibility. Why? I am a human being. Anything is possible.
Recently I was given an article by a friend of mine about a local rally where many Christian churches would be encouraged to sign a proclamation that gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, transgender and other sexual related behavior is not a matter of choice but a gift from god and while I do not personally agree with position I do stand by their right to believe what they want. Who known’s I could be wrong and they could be right? I’m only human. Anything is possible.
My own personal belief is that everything is a matter of choice regardless of how many other factors might be in play.
When it comes to being transgendered I’ve noticed that most people automatically assume that I am attracted to men otherwise why would I want to assume the form of the opposite sex. I never thought about it but I’m usually pretty quick in telling them that I’m not attracted to men. Why is that? Is it because I would be ashamed to be gay if I was? What kind of lesson is that teaching people?
From now on I’m going to answer the question “Are you gay?” this way “I’m human. Anything is possible. I’m just not gay today. Tomorrow? Who knows?” Make it a non-issue because it shouldn’t be one. Like the color of socks we choose to wear from day to day.
Pink today. Blue tomorrow.
Anything is possible.

[Lorileah]

A "phobia" is often based on fear of the unknown. So some of the homophobia is fear of what may happen, even if it never would. Some phobias would be from being told something is bad or wrong and thus you become afraid of it. People fear wolves and would never meet a wolf. This is true of snakes and even heights. People feared Russia for years because they were told how Russia was ruthless and bent on dominating the world. From the time little boys start looking at life they are told what is masculine and what is feminine and then they are told that they should not be feminine. When for whatever reason they start liking something that has been labeled feminine they become fearful and thus try and avoid it. And to reinforce their own maleness they can become vocal or physical about it. Just like the wolf, they don't understand it but they have been told it is bad and then they fear it.
I do not think that the gay community does us any favors when it comes to the general public’s perception that CD’ers are gay. You are making a bad assumption on the statement. The gay community does not think of TG's as gay and they don't go around telling people they are. In fact they really don't understand TGism. They have set ideals and TG's don't fit their ideals. Non-gays make the connection of TG's being gay because they believe in a set gender role and thus if you present as a female you must want to have a male. We know that isn't true but it isn't a gay concept.
The problem is that in most gay pride parades you see these costumes, and the drag queens and so by conclusion, men in dresses must be gay. I know that this sounds simplistic, but the news media, and television programs don't help matters either. and as stated this isn't from the gay community and the problem is we allow Drag Queens to be our icon because we don't display any other image. The DQ's are members of the gay community, usually gay and entertainers and they are not Cross dressers nor Transsexuals. Don't blame the gay community for this, it is the mainstream media

An observation of mine is that most women do not get “bent” out of shape about gays or lesbians. Having known many gays and lesbians in my life, I am saying this from their personal experiences in their relationships. Is it because most women are more comfortable in their sexuality? Then this would beg to ask, is homophobia based on a fear due to males having issues about their own sexuality? I don't think so. Women are allowed much more latitude in emotion and how they exhibit feelings. Women are not told to not hug, or kiss, another woman. That is often a common thing among women. In western society, any physical contact in males is considered to have some sort of sexual association.

Having done my share of reading CD fiction, I find that there are common reoccurring themes. When you get into the more explicit sex fantasies, a theme is being forced into sex, or willingly having sex with another man. CD fiction is not written for heterosexual males. It is written for gay and bisexual males. And the force is an "out" so they can believe they were not to blame for the sexual contact. Guys who hit on CD's do it because they believe that 1) CD's are really wanting to be female and thus they want a male and 2) they would rationalize that if they did become intimate with a CD it was because they looked feminine and thus they really aren't gay. It would be a reason to pursue a homosexual liaison in a "safe": mode


I am seeking you thoughts on this subject, whether you are a CD, or you are transgendered, because we have all had to deal with homophobia at one time or another. How we approach this and how we deal with it can determine whether the homophobia increases, or decreases.

It is simple education, just like every other "phobia". We know now Russia didn't want us all dead. We know that certain ethnic groups don't fit the stereotypes. But the only way we can dispel these rumors is education and when so many choose to hide away it appears that we believe our own stereotypes, that we are perverts and that we are gay or whatever. Unless we can educate, we will always be feared

[Shelly Preston]

Homophobia seems to be down to stereotypes

You get told as a young man its wrong, also we have the problem of religion which tells us much the same thing. As always the media dont help as they like to treat it like a scandal if someone is gay. Unless it affects immediate family who cares.

A lot are scared as they dont understand homosexuality

Why dont people think for themselves ?

I dont expect everyone to be happy but they could at least respect other peoples choices

[danielle.cd]

you cant catch gay its not a disease , and most of the poeple that dont like gays are afraid cause they think some one is going to do something to them , really there a blast to be around when they get going on there rants and raves , there more femenin than women is , and wouldnt think twice about a straight guy

[Frédérique]

I wouldn't immediately define this as misogyny. Men can not want to be feminine, while not hating females for being who they are. Most men that I know do not think themselves superior to women and do not hate them. They do acknowledge differences between the two genders though.

By doing so they keep the genders apart, which makes crossing over to the other side that much more difficult. For a male, sometimes, disaffection for women may be quite subtle and not voiced aloud, fueling a desire to conquer feminine characteristics and “become” what he cannot obtain through normal channels. I find it impossible to feel “superior” to any other human being, even though this misguided idea is put forth and reinforced from an early age. Crossing over between the genders helps to dissipate any hatred before it has a chance to take hold, simply by embracing a different way of seeing things. Homophobia cannot take root in such an environment...
:straightface:


Also, I don't think that most people need to see a Pride parade with drag queens in order to assume that CDers are gay. Just the fact that a man wants to present as a woman is enough for people to believe there is a sexual motive and that he does this in order to appeal to males. As mentioned above, there is a dire need for widespread education about this.

This morning I was wondering why you never hear about the heterosexual, non-alternative “community,” but then I quickly realized that you ALWAYS hear from that community, 24/7/365, loud and clear, since they have an agenda to push across, meaning an agenda that benefits THEM. As far as education is concerned, who is responsible for dwindling resources in this department? Yeah, guess who, and they are, no doubt, extremely PROUD of themselves...
:doh:

[NicoleScott]

Definition of HOMOPHOBIA (Merriam-Webster)
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

Yes, there are haters, but not all homophobes are haters. They just fear. Maybe they fear getting hit on when alone with a gay man. But, as defined, it's an irrational fear. Some people are against homosexuality for religious reasons. They say they love the sinner but hate the sin. So let's not label all homophobes as haters. People are entitled to their own thoughts, however irrational, but they should be held accountable for their actions.

I agree with Karren that a lot of guys are embarrassed that they were attracted to what they thought was a woman but was a crossdresser. They got fooled. And likewise, some women are not happy that their man was attracted to a cd. A little jealousy?

[MasterD]

What's surpising to me is how homophobic (Going to take lumps for lumping all you folk into one lump here :o ) most of you gals are when I come up to one of you and attempt a conversation. Not all men are trying to bed you in the first thirty seconds.

Although that would be nice... :)

But seriously now DebGlam made a good point when she said:

I think the idea that another man may be looking at them in that manner scares the hell out of some of them.

There's nothing more awkward then having some beautifully dressed CD/TV/TS come all unglued blurting out "I'm not gay !" as soon as I introduce myself.

I've been around long enough to know there's the danger of "fooliing" someone who may not react favorably so I can understand the apprehension.

[RachelOKC]

Definition of HOMOPHOBIA (Merriam-Webster)
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

Yes, there are haters, but not all homophobes are haters. They just fear. Maybe they fear getting hit on when alone with a gay man. But, as defined, it's an irrational fear.

I can buy this to a degree. Fear and ignorance doesn't have to equal hate, but they are strong contributors.

I've never known a gay man who would hit on another man that he didn't believe to be gay or bi. Not that it doesn't happen, but most gay men are careful to try to read the situation and not cause conflict.

Just like a woman can turn down a man's advances, a man can do the same to another man. It doesn't have to be rude, hateful, or violent. Thanks, but no thanks. How hard is that, even for a fearful, ignorant person?


They say they love the sinner but hate the sin.

Waste of time to even engage on that one.


I agree with Karren that a lot of guys are embarrassed that they were attracted to what they thought was a woman but was a crossdresser. They got fooled. And likewise, some women are not happy that their man was attracted to a cd. A little jealousy?

How often does this *really* happen? Lets see...in movie world, probably all the time. In real life? Pretty rare in I'd bet.

[kendra_gurl]

Something everyone is missing here. Perhaps it is because this site is not that representative of the CD's who are on all the other sites on the internet. That is the main reason I stay at this site.
It's really sad to say that least 90% of the CD's I encounter on OTHER web sites are either gay or Bisexual. I for one can certainly understand how the general internet public would think we all are.
Most that can pass in public are never know about because they pass. Leaving a lot of the publics impression of CD's they are aware of to be the ones they see at drag shows which usually are held in Gay clubs. We all know from research most cd's are str8 married hetro men but the public in general do not research such things

As for getting hit on while out. Its very easy to just politely tell them "I'm very flattered but I am not into men" I've never had anyone not understand that or be offended by it

[dawnmarrie1961]

Here's another tidbit I have about myself. I attend the MCC, Metropolitan Community Church, on a regular basis. The congregation is mostly gay and lesbian. Usually when we meet and greet each other we give each other a nice friendly hug. I don't have any problem with hugging the ladies but when it came to hugging the men I used to feel a little weird about it.:eek: I preferred to give them a nice manly handshake.:o Of course now that I've gotten to know some of the members better I just grab the guys and squeeze the heck out of them, careful not to break any ribs.:battingeyelashes:
Familiarity doesn't breed necessarily breed contempt but rather it offers a chance to broaden our understanding. :)My initial reaction towards these gentlemen was wrong because I was basing my feelings about them from my learned experiences with men from my past. Not the present.
I'm learning.

[NicoleScott]

Waste of time to even engage on that one.

Then why did you quote it? Unless you're one of those who think you have to pick apart every sentence of another's post. That's irritating. Well, at least you agree with my point that not all homophobes are haters.

[Julogden]

*sigh* Fetish -–noun
1. an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.
2. any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion: to make a fetish of high grades.
3. Psychology . any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation.

You're acting just like the rest of them.....you think that a fetish is a bad thing. It's today's society and the media that has attached such a bad image with the word. Did you put women's clothing on only once and then stop? I thought not. Do you love how it makes you feel just the way I do? Do you treasure your time when you can let that inner girl go free? By technical definition then yes, you do have a fetish for crossdressing. Fetishes come in varying degrees....it's not just a 1 or a 0....there's a whole range of people who yes, might have the same passion (same meaning as a fetish btw in this context) for crossdressing as you do but who might do it more or less or consume more of who they are (i.e. I'm just as femme in drab as I am enfemme...it's who I am and it bleeds over). You have to separate yourself from the herd mentality as like Frederique said.

I feel that you're making an error in thinking that the "vast majority" of CD's crossdress because of a habitual erotic response or fixation, that's absolutely not accurate. If that's your reason for dressing, fine, not a problem, but don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone dresses for the same reasons that you do. While many CD's, maybe most, go through a stage early on that is sexual to one degree or another, most move past that, and their reasons for dressing evolve in non-sexual directions. And some do dress strictly because it's a sexual turn-on, but I don't see that it's most CD's. I've been around the community for many years (decades) and have known a lot of CD's, and I'm speaking based on that experience.


What's surpising to me is how homophobic (Going to take lumps for lumping all you folk into one lump here :o ) most of you gals are when I come up to one of you and attempt a conversation. Not all men are trying to bed you in the first thirty seconds.

Although that would be nice... :)

But seriously now DebGlam made a good point when she said:


There's nothing more awkward then having some beautifully dressed CD/TV/TS come all unglued blurting out "I'm not gay !" as soon as I introduce myself.

I've been around long enough to know there's the danger of "fooliing" someone who may not react favorably so I can understand the apprehension.

My experience has been that most guys hanging around CD's are indeed looking for quick and anonymous sex, so its not surprising that a lot of girls immediately want to make it clear that they aren't interested. In my younger days when I went out a lot, I learned that an over-the-top response on my part wasn't usually needed, but I always made it clear to any guy who made advances that if he was looking for anything other than someone to talk to for a while, he was wasting his time. Initially, I overreacted too, but I learned quickly that most guys will accept you calmly and rationally saying that you aren't interested. And I did end up sitting and talking with chasers lots of times. I had some nice conversations and got quite a few free drinks too. ;)

Carol

[Pythos]

Its very easy to just politely tell them "I'm very flattered but I am not into men" I've never had anyone not understand that or be offended by it

Heh. I use this one. But my other fave is

"well, you see, I am a total lesbian." LOL. Note I have only done this when in fem androg mode. So far in full fem, no such questions....yet (gulp)

[TinaMc]

Interesting topic. Something I read recently suggests that being feminine is considered sort of lower on the scale of acceptability even among gay men (http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/whats-missing-from-the-discussion-about-male-sexuality/):


Michael: The one thing that absolutely bugs me in the gay world is the question of, “Are you a top or a bottom?” It’s really, “How masculine are you?” If you want to see how masculinity and femininity are played out in the straight world, you only have to see how it is played out in the gay world. Top and bottom is really nothing but masculine and feminine. In ancient Greece and in Rome, homosexuality was accepted—but only if you were the top. The proscription against homosexuality was not about men having sex with men. It was about men not acting like women.

Which kind of puts a different spin on things, i.e. a lot of CDers are all, "I'm not gay!" And a lot of gay men are all, "I'm not feminine!"

[joanna4]

Oh my god, yes I do have sexual fantasies and some of which are with another man/men. I feel fine about it actually but just fear std's.

[Pythos]

Yes TinaMc,

At least in this example gay males consider being feminine to be lower than masculine.

So let's not hear anymore about people being insulted when we straight CDers say "I'm not gay" anymore.

Let's just all realize there are bigots, and there are non-bigots. Try to be the latter.

[SweetIonis]

Definition of HOMOPHOBIA (Merriam-Webster)
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

Yes, there are haters, but not all homophobes are haters. They just fear. Maybe they fear getting hit on when alone with a gay man. But, as defined, it's an irrational fear. Some people are against homosexuality for religious reasons. They say they love the sinner but hate the sin. So let's not label all homophobes as haters. People are entitled to their own thoughts, however irrational, but they should be held accountable for their actions.

I agree with Karren that a lot of guys are embarrassed that they were attracted to what they thought was a woman but was a crossdresser. They got fooled. And likewise, some women are not happy that their man was attracted to a cd. A little jealousy?

I'm still thinking about it but I think you are right. You can be fearful of something and not hate it. That's a good question though.

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you do you think that a person who is against homosexuality for religious reasons is NECESSARILY a homophobe?

[Pythos]

do you think that a person who is against homosexuality for religious reasons is NECESSARILY a homophobe?

No. I would not say they are a homophobe. I would say the congregation has homophobic tendencies. I would also go out on a limb and say that they would also fall into the ignorant category, and cherry pic passeges in the bible to their own satisfaction. Cause there are in the same sections that condem homosexuality (though it is not worded as such) stuff about killing a dis obeying child by stoning, killing adulterers in the same brutal manner, and many other horrible things. If we truly followed the Bible like how some of these religions follow only ONE obscure rule, there would be many many dead people.

[SweetIonis]

No. I would not say they are a homophobe. I would say the congregation has homophobic tendencies. I would also go out on a limb and say that they would also fall into the ignorant category, and cherry pic passeges in the bible to their own satisfaction. Cause there are in the same sections that condem homosexuality (though it is not worded as such) stuff about killing a dis obeying child by stoning, killing adulterers in the same brutal manner, and many other horrible things. If we truly followed the Bible like how some of these religions follow only ONE obscure rule, there would be many many dead people.

You have interesting thoughts.

I absolutely agree about the many dead people point. I would go further and say that there would be hardly anyone left!

[Karren H]

Karren, you have one lucky son to have a parent like you. You not only accept his born condition, but understand it. What a wonderful thing he has to have been born with a parent who will support him and love him unconditionally, well, unless he borrows a dress without asking and ruines it. :heehee: I know, gay doesn't mean crossdresser. Just thinking out loud how many children who are born either gay, crossdressers, or transgendered who had no say in how they were made but were born with 1 or both parents who don't understand and try to change who they are. Kudo's to you for being there for you son. :thumbsup:

Thanks... He is the most manly rugged man and has no feminine characteristics at all... Probaly got that from his mother! Lol.

[JavaJunkie]

@Carol Hun I'm way past the point where going out enfemme turns me on like that but I was referring more my femininity. As far as the sexual goes, yes I do like men, and yes I do like when they hit on me, and yes I do like having sex while still en femme. It's not the act of wearing the clothes that turns me on but the mindset I'm in when I'm dressed. I love feeling girly and submissive. Does that mean I need the clothes to still get satisfaction? Not at all.

Yes, I did make some broad sweeping statements but you said it yourself, alot (but not all) CD'ers start out being turned on by it. I think once we become more comfortable with it and ourselves we lose that fascination (in a sexual context) and really just settle into our new self. Me though? I'm not a guy that likes to wear women's clothes.....I'm a woman stuck in a gay man's body trying to express what I feel. I think therein lies the big difference in me and alot of the girls on this site...... I'm not attracted at all to women...I just want to be more like them. I have absolutely no interest in trying to be a guy. Also a silly stocking or lace panties do nothing for me.....being a girl with a man in a more private setting does.

Finally I don't think people dress for the same reasons as me at all. We're all beautifully unique and have our own motivations and reasoning for doing what we do. Kind of like the reason I would guess the anti gay crowd here are so adamant about proclaiming they aren't gay and don't want to be perceived as anything to do with gay is because they themselves have doubts about their orientation. It's perfectly fine though because we all go through that stage. Just please don't antagonize those of us who ARE out and proud that we've finally accepted ourselves. Homophobia is internal as well as external. Same goes for transphobia as well.

[NicoleScott]

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you do you think that a person who is against homosexuality for religious reasons is NECESSARILY a homophobe?

Maybe according to the definition (aversion to...), but if a person believes, using tenets of his religion as his source of authority, that homosexuality is against God's will for His (all) people, then he is not necessarily a homophobe. BUT, using these teachings as an excuse to hate ("God hates fags") would indicate homophobia and maybe worse if acted out: discrimination, assault, etc. The theme of Christianity is that God is love - He loves all people, but not their sins. Some Christians truly believe that homosexuality is a sin, but they are also commanded to love anyway. I don't see much difference between radical Muslims killing infidels (for being non-Muslim) that so-called Christians killing people for what they believe to be sins.
My [late] father was a devout Christian, Southern Baptist, but he didn't wear it on his sleeve to impress others. His works were in the background, only in God's eyes, not for accolades of people. He visited people in jail, but that doesn't mean he condoned crime. He donated money for specific church needs - anomonously. I was punished for playing with lipstick as a child, but I don't think he knew about my crossdressing. He certainly would have not approved but would have loved me anyway, and would have tried to get me to see the "error" of my ways according to his religious beliefs. And he certainly would never have considered harming (physically, socially, etc.) anyone for being gay. I wouldn't call him a homophobe, but if others define him that way, OK, but he certainly was not a hater.

[SweetIonis]

Maybe according to the definition (aversion to...), but if a person believes, using tenets of his religion as his source of authority, that homosexuality is against God's will for His (all) people, then he is not necessarily a homophobe. BUT, using these teachings as an excuse to hate ("God hates fags") would indicate homophobia and maybe worse if acted out: discrimination, assault, etc. The theme of Christianity is that God is love - He loves all people, but not their sins. Some Christians truly believe that homosexuality is a sin, but they are also commanded to love anyway. I don't see much difference between radical Muslims killing infidels (for being non-Muslim) that so-called Christians killing people for what they believe to be sins.
My [late] father was a devout Christian, Southern Baptist, but he didn't wear it on his sleeve to impress others. His works were in the background, only in God's eyes, not for accolades of people. He visited people in jail, but that doesn't mean he condoned crime. He donated money for specific church needs - anomonously. I was punished for playing with lipstick as a child, but I don't think he knew about my crossdressing. He certainly would have not approved but would have loved me anyway, and would have tried to get me to see the "error" of my ways according to his religious beliefs. And he certainly would never have considered harming (physically, socially, etc.) anyone for being gay. I wouldn't call him a homophobe, but if others define him that way, OK, but he certainly was not a hater.

I agree with everything you said here. I think the thing that people forget in terms of how they practice their religion is that it's supposed to be based on love. That's really the key.

Thanks for the response. There are some really intelligent people on here!

[BobbieJoe]

Before the Holy Roman Empire there wasn't even a word for "gay"

[SweetIonis]

A lot of stuff we have came from the Roman Empire and it's remnants. Actually much of modern Christian theology comes from Constantine's Council of Nicaea.

[bomba]

i for one have never been dressed around other men.but the thought of a guy hitting on me when i was dressed would scare the hell out of me. but wouldn't it be great if my wife cuaght me dressed and hit on me. oh dream on ,dream on

[Julogden]

Just please don't antagonize those of us who ARE out and proud that we've finally accepted ourselves. Homophobia is internal as well as external. Same goes for transphobia as well.
Sorry if you felt that I was trying to antagonize anyone. I actually quoted from the incorrect message of yours. In an earlier posting in this thread, you said "I would have to say for the vast majority yes, CDing is sexual. People just don't want to admit it because they're embarrassed it turns them on. CDing is technically categorized as a fetish but I know we all hate that term.....so dirty."

That's what triggered my response. However, your explanation cleared the air as far as I'm concerned, although I'd argue that CD'ing isn't necessarily a fetish.

Congratulations on being out and totally accepting yourself! That's quite an accomplishment for most of us. I advocate everyone being out, but it's hard to do for many of us, as we are our own worst enemy and a formidable one at that.

It never fails to amaze me when people here start in with the anti-gay stuff.

Carol

[MasterD]

My experience has been that most guys hanging around CD's are indeed looking for quick and anonymous sex, so its not surprising that a lot of girls immediately want to make it clear that they aren't interested.

Aha, Forgot about that part. Valid point. Perhaps in my youth but more for friendship these days, if anything else happens, well so much the better.
( Been lurking here for a while, not here to upset any one intentionally)


Oh my god, yes I do have sexual fantasies and some of which are with another man/men. I feel fine about it actually but just fear std's.

:ohgoon: :devil: :)

[Fab Karen]

"but if a person believes, using tenets of his religion as his source of authority, that homosexuality is against God's will for "His" (all) people, then he is not necessarily a homophobe."

Irrational fear of homosexuals, it aligns perfectly under the definition.

[SweetIonis]

"but if a person believes, using tenets of his religion as his source of authority, that homosexuality is against God's will for "His" (all) people, then he is not necessarily a homophobe."

Irrational fear of homosexuals, it aligns perfectly under the definition.

Why do you say that?

[NicoleScott]

Irrational fear of homosexuals, it aligns perfectly under the definition.

Are all religious beliefs irrational, or just that one?

[SweetIonis]

They can be and it's not unusual for them to be irrational. But that's not necessarily the case.

[Fab Karen]

If it's against god's will, there wouldn't be any.

[SweetIonis]

If it's against god's will, there wouldn't be any.

Karen,

I don't think that's necessarily true. A crude example might help. A father may have a beautiful daughter who is dating someone of ill repute. Now the father desire is that his daughter not date this person for her on good. However, in the larger sense, he might feel that it's better that his daughter learn from experience. So it could be that God let's us do things that he does not want us to do so that we can learn from our experience.

I'm not saying you have to believe that. I'm just saying that's a possible explanation and so what you said doesn't NECESSARILY hold.

[ReineD]

I've got my mod hat on when I say that we were doing fine keeping religion out of this thread until about post #40. Let's get back to the discussion without it, shall we? Not everyone believes that God has a hand in this.

To those of you who do want to discuss the religious aspect, please do so via PM or start a new thread in the Religious Discussions forum. If you're not a member, you can join.

I don't want to close this thread but I will if the religious discussion continues here.

[SweetIonis]

Sorry about that. Don't want to ruins someone's thread.

[Stephanie47]

[QUOTE=RachelOKC;2525559]

I've never known a gay man who would hit on another man that he didn't believe to be gay or bi. Not that it doesn't happen, but most gay men are careful to try to read the situation and not cause conflict.

Just like a woman can turn down a man's advances, a man can do the same to another man. It doesn't have to be rude, hateful, or violent. Thanks, but no thanks. How hard is that, even for a fearful, ignorant person?

Many persons have an intense dislike of anybody violating their space and making unfounded assumptions about them. I do not have, nor ever had a dislike for gay men. I never had an opportunity of having a friend or co worker, who was "out." As a young child I did have the opportunity of fending off a male sexual pervert in a movie theater, while watching a movie with my older brother. As a young adult I did decline an invitation on the subway to have my penis sucked. I was dressed in a suit on the way to a job interview. My very pregnant wife had to tell a man that I was already obviously 'taken', when all we were doing was going to work on the subway. I had to try to catch a pervert, who decided my son, who was a minor at the time, was not available for a pickup, while at the mall shopping with his father and younger sister. And, we talk about why some people are homophobic? There was absolutely no reason for any of these men to make an assumption I or my son were interested in an encounter.

There is a time and place for everything. Most women I know do NOT want to be "hit on" unless they are in a "pick up" place.

Times have changed for the better. When persons have the ability to go to a club or environment where people with similar interests congregate without fear, then society has made progress.

[NicoleScott]

As one who doesn't think that all homophobes are necessarily haters, and as one who believes it's not homophobic to state that I'm straight or not gay, I think your experience was more about unwanted advances than homosexuality or homophobia. Using the reasoning that unwanted advances of males to other males leads to homophobia, then most women would fear men (is there a term for that?).

[SweetIonis]

Actually I it's not so unusual to see women be intimidated by men because of unwanted sexual advances. Perhaps it doesn't rise to the level of a phobia, but there is a certain level of fear there nonetheless. Come to think about it though there are some women that despise men to the level of a phobia and some of that MAY have had to do with some sort of situation they were in where there was some unwanted sexual advance. Then there is the term "playa hater" that is used frequently.

That said I agree, a homophobe is not necessarily a hater.

I just said that to provoke some deeper thought regarding your point about most women would fear men if unwanted sexual advances led to a phobia.

[AllieSF]

I think that the main point is whether a homophobe is a hater, disliker or just feels uncomfortable with gays and lets those reactions and feelings taint how they treat others and what signals they give off to others intentionally or not, does have negative impacts on society as a whole and parts of society like the LGBT spectrum that many of us here are a part of. In my opinion, as I understand the term homophobia, it is a negative connotation and it would be great that others at least tolerated us and all of our LGBT brethren instead of making sure that they keep themselves physical, mentally and by reference to themselves at more than an arms length from any of us and the terms associated with us. I understand all the reasons why they do not want that association, but to see members here go way out of their way to make that separation smacks clearly of homophobia, when most here are looking for toleration and unity. It seems like a lot here are still in their innocent youth and do not want to catch any of those unwanted cooties if they get too close.

[SweetIonis]

I was just think about this some more while driving just a minute ago. I think part of the problem guys have is that you can be labeled as being gay simply by being seen talking to someone who is gay. I have never seen any research on it, but I am going to be bold and state that most women don't want a guy who is or even perceived as being gay. So when a guy is hit on by a gay man, I can see how that would make him uncomfortable. I remember at the job I was at before my current on this guy hit on me by slightly rubbing his hands on me and referring to me as darling. It made me a little uncomfortable but I really didn't think much of it the first time he did it. When he did it again, I got really angry and reacted very strongly. Part of what made me angry was that I did not want to be seen as being gay. Over and above that I didn't have the slightest bit of attraction. I said that to say I could see how having things like that happen to you over time could lead to some pretty hostile feelings towards gays in general.

[Fab Karen]

In what you described in that last job, that was about a guy being a creep & touching you without permission. A creep is a creep whether gay or hetero, his being gay didn't make him a creep.