Please advise me

[Michelle James]

I'm not sure it's ok for me to post here but I have a question.
Sunday I was at a craft show. One of the booths sold metal sculptures. You know for the garden and stuff. It was run by a female who was dressed totally as male. Being trans myself I was able to tell when many people may not. I know that most M to F's want to be called "She". Trying to be respectful and after this person said "My partner and I make these out of things we find" my SO said to me "doesn't he do great work?" We were immediately corrected "it's she".

Where did we go wrong?

[Tara D. Rose]

You didn't go wrong. You just can never tell what anyone wants to be called unless you ask first, or you could say well sir, you do lovely work ,then see if he or she corrects you as to the proper term for which they desire to be addressed as. It's a 50/50 gamble. I went to a convenient store on night and got a drink. The cashier was obviously a real woman but presented herself so much like any man anywhere. So, upon receiving my change, I took a chance and said, thank you sir, have a good evening, and she said the same back to me. This cashier took no offense. And so in your case, how were you to possibly know the gender or sex of the partner of which she was referring? No one can really win or predict these kinds of situations. But to find a solution to all of this, I do have a suggestion. Let us all abolish the word "partner". This person that you were talking to should have just said, "my girlfriend" and I make these. Had it been a M to F, and if her SO is a male, then they should say, "my boyfriend". I mean we're all really sort of set up "to guess" when someone says "my partner". What is the true definition of partner? I mean, I have a partner here and there, but we're not intimate lovers or anything like that. To me, "Partner" is one thing, like a close friend,, "SO" should mean="the one that I'm intimate with", then is that male or female? The breakdown goes way too deep. I brought this up a while back and got attacked left and right. I wish I was so simple sometimes But what could you do? Well you could have said, oh this is such lovely work, how much time does it take for you and your “partner” to make this item right here? Then keep this person talking until this person refers to “the” “partner” in such a way that you then can learn how to refer to their “partner “ as. Thus giving you a much better breakdown , one where you won’t seem to appear to be disrespectful to them. ...love & respect....Tara de Rose

[kendra_gurl]

My first thought after reading your post is that you wife was addressing "his"(the one you were speaking too) partner as a He which might have made her/him think you though they were both gay males. A real no-no to the lesbian community

[AnnaCalliope]

We have a M2F TS and a M2F CD who come into the thrift shop I volunteer at pretty regularly, and as the resident expert on all things "alternative", I've had to train some of the other volunteers in proper etiquette, and even then, sometimes I'm still baffled. The TS prefers female pronouns, obviously. But the CD, even when en femme and he can be quite passable as long as his outfit isn't too outlandish, he prefers male pronouns. To each their own, I guess.

[mistunderstood]

Every one is correct it is a no win situation on these things. When I am wrong I say I am sorry and I explain why I guessed wrong. I live openly as a man and I feel comfortable in telling my story. I know a lot of people can not do this because of all kinds of reasons. I try to be open and safe about these things. I hardly ever get labeld as a girl which is fine by me. When I am out and if I do feel it is not safe I will say I am a lesbian and my girlfriend is with me which is the truth we never go any where with out the other.

[AnonyMouse]

You went wrong by making an assumption about the person's gender based on her clothing. There are plenty of women (e.g., butch women) who enjoy dressing/presenting masculine but still identify strongly as women. The best thing to do is to ask people what pronouns they prefer, or to rephrase what you say to avoid gendering words (such as "Isn't this great work?" instead of "Doesn't he do great work?") It's not shameful or rude to avoid pronouns, especially if you're in a situation where you run a high risk of getting it wrong.

And one other thing concerning trans etiquette:


The cashier was obviously a real woman but presented herself so much like any man anywhere.
It's not appropriate to refer to someone as "obviously a real woman" if xe is presenting as a man. Without knowing what you meant by that, I'm not sure what an appropriate alternative would be, but something like "physically female-appearing" might cover it.

[Tara D. Rose]

You went wrong by making an assumption about the person's gender based on her clothing. There are plenty of women (e.g., butch women) who enjoy dressing/presenting masculine but still identify strongly as women. The best thing to do is to ask people what pronouns they prefer, or to rephrase what you say to avoid gendering words (such as "Isn't this great work?" instead of "Doesn't he do great work?") It's not shameful or rude to avoid pronouns, especially if you're in a situation where you run a high risk of getting it wrong.

And one other thing concerning trans etiquette:


It's not appropriate to refer to someone as "obviously a real woman" if xe is presenting as a man. Without knowing what you meant by that, I'm not sure what an appropriate alternative would be, but something like "physically female-appearing" might cover it.

I was just saying to all here, that I would bet my house that if this cahier pulled her pants down, I know without a doubt in my mind that the cachier would have had a vagina. And I agree it may not be approriate to say to her"obviosly a real women", but she was. I still addressed the cachier as sir, to show this cachier the respect for the human the cahier was and forthe gender for which she was presenting. What I was speaing of is along the same lines for which this thread is founded.
And the part where you corrected that i should have saidm "what does He?" well I'd be in the same boat of wrongfully assuming as did the op here. sheesh.

[mistunderstood]

Ok every one lets take a breath here. It is ok to make a mistake. Sometimes you can not win when you play the gender game. People dress and act like both genders any more. If you get it wrong just apologise. Plain and simple. If you get it right the person will have a great day because you cared enough to notice. When I get addressed as female I try not to get all pissed about it. It just a simple mistake on there part. Not every one is trying to be a as$hole. If people I only see once or twice I do not care what they address me as. It is only people I know that I get upset at when they get it wrong. Yes it sucks but I can not get upset at every one who doe's this. I would be pissed all the time. I believe you have to pick and choose your battles in life and this is not my battle.
Please take what I say and what others say with a grain of salt. It is not meant to start a argument. Let's just all play nice and share the toys nicely.

[Adam]

i ID fully as male and although in secret i would be upset if i was read as female i am not offended if it happens once froma person i just correct them it only bothers me if they keep saying it wrong!

best bet is to go by what gender they appear not what there wearing i mean there are TONNS of butch females and not that many ftm's i would rather get miss gendered than a female getting called "he" because of what she is wearing if they happen to be ftm they will soon correct you.

[CaptLex]

Being trans myself I was able to tell when many people may not. I know that most M to F's want to be called "She". Trying to be respectful and after this person said "My partner and I make these out of things we find" my SO said to me "doesn't he do great work?" We were immediately corrected "it's she".

Where did we go wrong?
Where you went wrong was in assuming that this person is trans. As some of the guys mentioned, some butch-mannered, masculinely-attired women totally identify as women and are not trans. Some transguys are mistaken for butch females and some butch females are mistaken for transguys. And there is no secret tattoo or handshake, so the only way to know for sure is to ask how someone identifies or what pronouns the person uses. You may find that awkward, but I'd much rather someone ask me straight out (and I won't be offended) than to have someone assume incorrectly and refer to me wrongly - that is offensive in my book.


I was just saying to all here, that I would bet my house that if this cahier pulled her pants down, I know without a doubt in my mind that the cachier would have had a vagina. And I agree it may not be approriate to say to her"obviosly a real women", but she was.
The correct term is female-bodied. I'm female-bodied, but I'm not "obviously a woman".

You ladies know the old warning about what happens to people who assume?

[mistunderstood]

CaptLex...Hey long time no see. Hope all is well. Don't stay away so long. It is to quite with practically every one is M.I.A. now. I miss you and all the others who have left the forum.

Ok Ok back on topic.