When do you say enough is enough

[SweetIonis]

I was thinking about the thread where someone said they had been dressing for 35 years but had to now stop because of their SO.

To me it brings to mind a good question. Is there a point, if you are involved with a GG gf or spouse, where you have to say you just can't go further in the relationship if it means having to give up the feminine part of your life?

I mean if you can give it up fine. That's great. But if being a girl and being pretty and feminine has become so much a part of your life that it creates a substantial psychological trauma, wouldn't that be grounds to say enough is enough, the relationship has to end?

What are your thoughts?

[Karren H]

I haven't successfully quit the last 5 decades so I doubt I would be able the next 5... But if my wife said stop I would try. To me being feminine isn't my whole life!! Not even a big part. There so much more to mine then just that.... Now don't even contemplate asking me to give up ice hockey for my wife!!! I'd help her pack her bags before that's going to happen! Lol.

[Stephanie-L]

I went to counselling for this very issue. The counseller said that to be truely happy I would need a divorce, that was 4 years ago and I am still married, but the thought is in the back of my mind..........Stephanie

[Intertwined]

To me being feminine isn't my whole life!! Not even a big part. There so much more to mine then just that....

WOW, Karen, impressive... it is not my whole life either, but, it is very much a part of who I am, getting rid of Marsha, would be like killing a part of myself, and even tho my wife, who tolerates my Gender Expression, she agrees, some of my better qualities come from my feminine half.

[Stephanie47]

I'm in the Karen camp. Being en femme is a small part of my life. If my wife of forty years were to go from a DADT relationship on cross-dressing and demand that I purge/stop/cease all cross-dressing, I would walk. Why? Because over forty years I have conceded every other part of our lives. We live where see wanted (3,000 miles from my stomping grounds) and effectively did in my employment aspirations; the church we attended; the house we live in;etc. Those concessions did not affect my inner self. For one spouse to demand a total concession from the other is absolutely wrong. My cross-dressing is on my private time. I do not put it in her face, either.

[Intertwined]

I do not put it in her face, either.

Good for you... I have made that mistake...

[docrobbysherry]

If u intend to go out presenting as a woman or living as one, u probably will not compromise.

On the other hand, if u r a part time/closet dresser and it gives u great satisfaction and pleasure? Why should u have to give it up if it DOESN'T interfere with your family and work?

Would u give up model trains or golf on the say so of your SO, if u got the same enjoyment from them?
While there is an arguable difference between dressing and other hobbies, unless it causes a lifestyle change, MUCH of the difference is in your SO's mind!

[Kate Simmons]

It is really a judgment call by each individual Hon. I guess it depends on what is more important to said individual and whether it is a choice to CD or a compulsion has to be brought into overall consideration as well. I personally have made it a total choice of whether to do it or not but my life per se does not depend on dressing one way or the other but more so on who I am as a full spectrum person.:)

[Raychel]

I would hope that my So would be more important then my CDing. I am fortunate enough that my wife accept this as part of me. I am not sure that she would ever put me in that position. I would hope not, But if at some point she did feel that uncomfortable with it. I would hope that she would tell me, and I would alos hope that we could come to an aggreement that we could both be happy with.

[Cynthia Anne]

Dressing isn't my whole life either! With the choice of give it up or! I am still dressing! Been divorce for 24 years!

[SweetIonis]

I haven't successfully quit the last 5 decades so I doubt I would be able the next 5... But if my wife said stop I would try. To me being feminine isn't my whole life!! Not even a big part. There so much more to mine then just that.... Now don't even contemplate asking me to give up ice hockey for my wife!!! I'd help her pack her bags before that's going to happen! Lol.

I suppose the question is what if she asked you to stop and you tried. Furthermore let's assume that you tried and it was inflicting some substantial psychological conflict. The question is this, do you think that would be sufficient grounds to end the relationship?

[Inna]

It took me 43 years to come to the reveal. About a year previous to that I almost didn't make it and afterwards decided enough is enough. Knowing what I do now, that once you are a transgender person you cannot turn this feeling off, all you can do is apply more pain in already tormented life and that doesn't seem like the answer.

So for me definitely 43 years - 7 years of being just a kid = 36 years of pain and suffering was the boiling point!

[Sara Jessica]

I keep wondering when she is going to say "enough is enough" about me.

[Barbra P]

I’m sort of in that boat right now, my Wife hasn’t told me that I must stop or else, but she isn’t supportive, most of the time, and obviously not happy when I do. But I’m 67 and I have been cross dressing since High School and I have tried in the past to quit without much success. I don’t really have any hobbies anymore, don’t spend my weekends playing golf or fishing, pretty much spend 24/7 with my Wife – something both of my Therapists have told me is not really healthy or in my best interest.

I’ve been told by two Therapists that they seriously doubt that I would survive very long if I tried to stop. Both told me to find some CD’ing friends and go shopping, out to lunch, or just for coffee or a glass of wine – go enjoy being a woman out for a day with the girls and the girl talk that that entails. Currently I don’t have any girl friends that I can do that with, other than my Daughter who wants to go shopping with me this week. Both Therapists feel that my feminine side is far too ingrained for me to ignore and that if I’m to survive I will have to continue to cross dress and live out my fantasy of being a girl part of the time. She surprised me when she told me that I would be happiest if I transitioned but realizes that is impossible financially even with the help that my health plan will cover and she hopes that cross dressing will sufficient.

[Tara D. Rose]

Well if mine gave me such an ultimatum, then she'd have to go. For I can get another wife. They're dime a dozen. You meet them, they lie to you, pretend to be all that they are not, after marriage, they cheat on you ,then you divorce. But my crossdressing, well, becoming Tara is here to stay, regardless of almost anything else. And like the insurance guy on TV, well that's my stand what's yours? But actually there is a long story behind all of this, maybe one day I'll make a thread about it.

[carhill2mn]

"Ultimates" are a big problem. At least one of the parties is going to be disappointed, upset, frustrated, irritated, etc. plus probable changes in the dynamics of feelings in the relationship. Many factors have to be considered before deciding what is the best way forward. Of the responses so far, one can see that the depth of feelings varies. Any decision will be a compromise and the parties involved must determine "cost vs. benefit" of any decision.

The simple answer is that there is no simple answer.

[SweetIonis]

Well I agree, there doesn't seem to be an easy answer to the predicament as framed. It could be framed many ways.

[NicoleScott]

I would hope that my So would be more important then my CDing.

Let's turn it around. If your wife disapproved of your cd-ing, would that be more important to her than you (and your marraige)?
Could/would she give that up for you?
Rule of thumb about ultimatums: don't give people choices you don't want them to take.

[Kerrylee61]

I’m sort of in that boat right now, my Wife hasn’t told me that I must stop or else, but she isn’t supportive, most of the time, and obviously not happy when I do. But I’m 67 and I have been cross dressing since High School and I have tried in the past to quit without much success. I don’t really have any hobbies anymore, don’t spend my weekends playing golf or fishing, pretty much spend 24/7 with my Wife – something both of my Therapists have told me is not really healthy or in my best interest.

I’ve been told by two Therapists that they seriously doubt that I would survive very long if I tried to stop. Both told me to find some CD’ing friends and go shopping, out to lunch, or just for coffee or a glass of wine – go enjoy being a woman out for a day with the girls and the girl talk that that entails. Currently I don’t have any girl friends that I can do that with, other than my Daughter who wants to go shopping with me this week. Both Therapists feel that my feminine side is far too ingrained for me to ignore and that if I’m to survive I will have to continue to cross dress and live out my fantasy of being a girl part of the time. She surprised me when she told me that I would be happiest if I transitioned but realizes that is impossible financially even with the help that my health plan will cover and she hopes that cross dressing will sufficient.

When the heck did I move to FL? Sounds like me and my wife's situation to the Tee. Over the last 8 years or so, she started to seem to be just ok as opposed to being fine with going out together etc. Now it's just ok at home, no letting the new neighbors see Kerry, no going outside in the yard. It's still sort of ok for me to sneak out alone, after dark (11 pm up here at this time of the year). Anyway I've sent my whole life hating the body I was blessed with and nothing will change until I'm in the old furnace.

Just the way it is...

Hugs
Kerry

[Dawn cd]

Tara said: "I can get another wife. They're dime a dozen. You meet them, they lie to you, pretend to be all that they are not, after marriage, they cheat on you ,then you divorce."

Misogynism anyone? Tara, that statement is unworthy of this forum and probably unworthy of you. You aren't angry by any chance, are you?

[sissystephanie]

Fairly early in my marriage, I did completely stop crossdressing! After 5 years, my wife(now late wife), who knew I was a CD when we married, begged me to start dressing again! She missed Stephanie in her life's activities!! Of course, I did start again! But as Karren said so well, being feminine is not my whole life!! In fact, since my dear late wife is no longer around to do my makeup I no longer even try to really look feminine! Sure I wear the clothes, but look like a man! And I have told both my children and my GG friend that I would stop completely if they asked me to!! I know that I can do it!!

Tara, I have to disagree with you in a big way. My late wife and I had almost 50 years of a very happy life together. I have only found one other woman that would come even close to her, and she is already happily married. You just have to be a little choosy in picking women!!

[SweetIonis]

Misogynism anyone? Tara, that statement is unworthy of this forum and probably unworthy of you. You aren't angry by any chance, are you?

Perhaps I am not aware of the relationship you have to the poster, but as far as I can tell, I don't think what was said was so extreme that it merited publicly making someone feel guilty for saying that. It was heavy, but I don't think that was an expression of an extreme amount of animosity. I think your response could have been gentler.

That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Ericka2]

Amen to that! After so many years of pretending I'm at a point where I told my wife that I needed to move on and make some serious decisions, now we are separated and in our way to a divorce, I'm not too happy about it since I love her dearly but I could not longer hang on to someone so sweet not knowing the outcome.:doh:
At least now she can be free and find someone with no so many issues...:sad:

Love, Ericka.

[Melanie R]

After 18 years of marriage, my first wife gave me the ultimatum give up the dressing or the marriage I walked away and she got the divorce I then met my second wife who has accepted Melanie unconditionally for 31 years. 4 years after my second wife and I married my first wife told me how much she missed Melanie and how divorcing me was the biggest mistake of her life. 2 weeks later she died of a heart attack according to our daughters heart broken.

[Kate Simmons]

I suppose one more point to consider is if the CDing itself takes on a life of it's own(which it can and will if left go) who is really in control, yourself or the premise of the CDing?I do not think CDing of itself is grounds to end a relationship though, unless by mutual consent of both parties involved.

[NicoleScott]

...my first wife told me how much she missed Melanie and how divorcing me was the biggest mistake of her life.

That's one example of how hindsight is so much clearer than foresight. Another is those of us who wasted years trying to hold a doomed marriage together. If we only knew how it would turn out....

[SweetIonis]

I think the issue of control is certainly important. Having said that we all have various desires, some stronger than others. Some of them are so strong that if we were forced to be in a situation where we had to where we had to choose between that desire or something else that we really liked, the potential for some sort of psychological conflict could arise.

To try to illustrate the point, let's suppose I was married to Salma Hayek. And let's assume that we both TRULY loved each other. Now I know this is not realistic but I want to illustrate the point so bear with me. Let's assume that for some reason or another that she demanded that I become totally celibate as a condition of continuing our relationship. No sex period! Honestly, for me, that would create some very substantial conflict because one the on hand her is someone I love that I dearly want to be with. On the other hand there is this desire that I have for sex, that at this point at least, needs some sort of satisfaction. Now you can say control, but for that, it's not a realistic option for me. Our relationship would just have to end.

I know you can say well if she really loved you, etc. But that's beside the point.

Again, I am assuming for this hypothetical that the dressing has come to a point where giving it up would create some substantial psychological conflict.

[Tina B.]

I just don't do well with ultamatums, what ever someone wants me to choose, I seem to go the other way. If I could have quit I would have years ago, but I don't like that depressed angry person, and I can't live with him. So I guess someone would have to step on out. But not me, I'll help her pack though.
Tina B.

[suchacutie]

I would come at this from a different direction.

If we assume that both persons are maintaining their wedding vows, then any ultamatum in the marriage presents a fundamental breakdown in that union. It's one thing for a spouse to explain why s/he is uncomfortable/frustrated/frightened/whatever about a situation in the marriage. It's quite another to say, "stop, or else!". As was mentioned above, it already presumes that the "or else" is a viable option.

My response would be to sit down and attempt to understand the basis of the ultamatum, to explain about the "or else" acceptance, and then to talk about the basis of the marriage. The "issue" that has engendered the ultamatum should not be the point of the discussion. The real point is why and how we are at the point of an ultamatum, and do we really want to be there. It is the marriage agreement that is at stake when an ultamatum is presented, and re-establishing that agreement is the first order of business. If that agreement cannot be re-established, the agreement has already ended.

tina

[Sophie86]

To me it brings to mind a good question. Is there a point, if you are involved with a GG gf or spouse, where you have to say you just can't go further in the relationship if it means having to give up the feminine part of your life?

I think there are two keys to arriving at an answer to this question:

1) Is the person actually capable of quitting? Not everyone can, whether because it's a psychological compulsion or because it is simply too large a part of their identity.

2) Can the person sympathize with the request? Do they understand why the request is being made, and do they consider it reasonable; or do they perceive it as an arbitrary and cruel demand?

If the answer to #1 is no, then there's a good chance that the answer to #2 will be no also. A person who can't quit is more likely to feel persecuted by the request. A lot also depends, though, on how the request is made. A person who can quit is more likely to heed the request if it's made in a reasonable and respectful way.

Of course, there's a third factor, which is how much does the SO really mean to the person, but unless there are other problems in the relationship, I think it's safe to assume the SO wouldn't be an SO if the person didn't love them a great deal. There's a tendency on the part of SOs to say, "If you really loved me, you would give it up." That's not true though. There are things that can't be done, and there are things about a person that simply can't be altered without alienating him from himself.

[SweetIonis]

If we assume that both persons are maintaining their wedding vows, then any ultamatum in the marriage presents a fundamental breakdown in that union.


Tina, I don't think I agree with that statement. I think it could represent a breakdown, depending on other factors, but not necessarily. Let's assume that everything else was fine in the relationship but the person was made aware of the cross dressing by the guy. I honestly don't think it's unreasonable, in that case for the girl to say it's something that she just could not handle and if it continued she would have to leave. Actually IMO, I think it's generous for her to at least offer the opportunity of maintaining the relationship on the condition that the behavior stop.

[SweetIonis]

I think there are two keys to arriving at an answer to this question:

1) Is the person actually capable of quitting? Not everyone can, whether because it's a psychological compulsion or because it is simply too large a part of their identity.

2) Can the person sympathize with the request? Do they understand why the request is being made, and do they consider it reasonable; or do they perceive it as an arbitrary and cruel demand?

If the answer to #1 is no, then there's a good chance that the answer to #2 will be no also. A person who can't quit is more likely to feel persecuted by the request. A lot also depends, though, on how the request is made. A person who can quit is more likely to heed the request if it's made in a reasonable and respectful way.

Of course, there's a third factor, which is how much does the SO really mean to the person, but unless there are other problems in the relationship, I think it's safe to assume the SO wouldn't be an SO if the person didn't love them a great deal. There's a tendency on the part of SOs to say, "If you really loved me, you would give it up." That's not true though. There are things that can't be done, and there are things about a person that simply can't be altered without alienating him from himself.

I thought this was a well thought out response. Thanks for that.

I will say that I think that at the end of the day, when a greater harm can be done by trying to maintain a relationship, rather than sacrificing for the sake of the well being of all involved. I honestly don't think that no one's best interests are served if a person ends up with some severe psychological damage and perhaps ends up in a mental institute as opposed to each party moving on a leading a comfortable life.

[Sophie86]

I honestly don't think that no one's best interests are served if a person ends up with some severe psychological damage and perhaps ends up in a mental institute as opposed to each party moving on a leading a comfortable life.

I agree. If one party is suffering severe emotional problems from trying to accommodate the other person's needs, then it would be better to end the relationship. That's true whether it's the crossdresser attempting to repress an irrepressible desire, or the SO attempting to be okay with something that she really isn't okay with. :straightface: (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?155882-This-is-so-hard-to-articulate-without-offending.....)

[retrofitme]

For me, I like and enjoy CDing - BUT I LOVE MY WIFE! If it truly came down to an ultimatum where I had to choose - I'd choose her, and not regret it one bit. CDing is a hobby and curiosity for me, and something I enjoy, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not that important.

[AllieSF]

Originally Posted by suchacutie

"If we assume that both persons are maintaining their wedding vows, then any ultimatum in the marriage presents a fundamental breakdown in that union."

Originally Posted by SweetIonis

"Tina, I don't think I agree with that statement. I think it could represent a breakdown, depending on other factors, but not necessarily. Let's assume that everything else was fine in the relationship but the person was made aware of the cross dressing by the guy. I honestly don't think it's unreasonable, in that case for the girl to say it's something that she just could not handle and if it continued she would have to leave. Actually IMO, I think it's generous for her to at least offer the opportunity of maintaining the relationship on the condition that the behavior stop."

Some ultimatums need to be made. For example to an alcoholic, a substance abuser, and even to an abusive partner. The ultimatum needs to be made for the sanity of both parties. If not, one becomes an unknowingly supporter of a bad behavior. However, when including CDing in that group, I then say probably no, when the CD's activities are not excessive and have not changed significantly over time unless the CD's activities are leaving all other aspects of the partnership and family relationship behind. I also agree that how an ultimatum is made makes a big difference. If it is part of a civil and serious conversation, then even though it may be an ultimatum, "stop or slow down, or else!", then it becomes, in my opinion, a statement that the partner can only tolerate so much and beyond that point she can't live with it anymore. Those types of ultimatums, again when civilly made, are more a statement of fact versus an ultimatum. It is always good to know each other's breaking points.

Not all relationships will be able to survive serious transgenderism by one of the partners. Those that cannot survive, need to look at it realistically and break it off sooner rather than later, after all reasonable efforts have been made to understand both points of view, getting outside help when necessary. However, to keep it together for the sake of the family is probably one of the worst reasons invented. It serves no one well and often leads from a poor situation to a really bad one where responsibility goes out the window and all parties directly and/or marginally involved also suffer way more than necessary. That is a lose-lose situation.

So, in answer to your question I believe that there is a point in most people's lives when enough is enough. That will vary for everyone and will depend on many factors, many of which have been discussed above. I am a true believer in cutting your losses and moving on for all concerned, instead of just accepting an untenable situation for someone else's false benefit.

[NicoleScott]

I agree, Allie. Some ultimatums are necessary, and issuing one is being fair to the other party. (I gave you the terms I can live with, and if you can't meet them then we're done).
Some "ultimatums" aren't - they are merely bluffs.
Years ago one of my workers came to me and said that if he was to continue working here, he would have to be paid more. I said "I accept your resignation".
He did some serious backpedaling. Years later, when I left for greener pastures, he was still there doing the same thing. Some ultimatum, huh?

[TGMarla]

I wouldn't do well with such an ultimatum. I know me, and when it comes to crossdressing, I'm very weak. I have more than enough dresses to last me a lifetime, yet I still buy more whenever I see a pretty one that will fit me. I've often told myself, "Enough!", but I still break down and continue looking for new adventures in dressing. So if she were to hand down an ultimatum, I'd be hard pressed to abide by it. I'd hate to make a promise I couldn't keep, so I'd opt to not make the promise. This is a part of me that is deeply engrained, and I have yet to be able to walk away from it for any reason.

[Emily Ann Brown]

I stopped for 6 months..did conselling. She moved out then, and wanted to call every night to ask what I was wearing. Then I told her I was tired of it and was going to be myself and she could stay gone. So she did.

I had to understand that she would never be happy..or trust me.

To be honest, we had SMALL issues that I was tired of ignoring to keep the peace.

Em

[kimdl93]

There's so much to consider here. Each of us has to make choices and figure out individually how CDing fits into our lives. For some, its a hobby, for others its an expression of their real identity...and hiding themselves can be intensely painful and destructive. And there's a whole spectrum of individuals who are somewhere between those points. Furthermore, relationships can be valued by some people more than others. I've always been in an LTR as an adult, with a brief interlude between my first and second marriages. I know its important to me to have a companion. Part of being in a successful LTR is knowing, respecting and caring about the other person's needs and preferences. And another aspect of a successful LTR is making it your first priority. That means dressing must be a secondary matter.

In my case, I was fortunate enough to be accepted, not once, but by both companions. My first marriage failed when I allowed my own desires (not related to dressing) to take precedence over the marriage. I regret that failing to this day, and try to remain mindful of what is important in my own life.

That being said, I also know that people and relationships change over time. CD and non CDs evolve and sometimes the bond between individuals erodes to the point that a relationship no longer really exists. In such a case, one needs to be prepared to move on.

[SweetIonis]

I agree. If one party is suffering severe emotional problems from trying to accommodate the other person's needs, then it would be better to end the relationship. That's true whether it's the crossdresser attempting to repress an irrepressible desire, or the SO attempting to be okay with something that she really isn't okay with. :straightface: (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?155882-This-is-so-hard-to-articulate-without-offending.....)

There were a lot of nice answers posted here. However, I suppose this pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. The path that you purpose here is clear, mature, wholesome, and is for the benefit of all who might find themselves in such a predicament. To often we find that blind adherence to some standard that might be relevant in some situations, but inappropriate in others, causes a greater harm than the good that was supposed to be the result of the arrangement in the first place. Indeed it is the duty of thinking individuals to step up in such situations and point out the dangers involved in the blind implementation of draconian morality that is ill suited to the situation at hand.

The blind pursuit of some impractical morality is one the characteristics of a fanatic. Fanaticism distorts reality for the sake of achieving a goal that is secondary to the primary objective, and in the process destroys the primary objective and therefore renders the secondary sterile. Leaders whose intelligence is myopic in its nature fail to see the greater harm and frequently employ rhetoric which appeals to the emotional nature of those who are less discerning in their inspection of the situation. As a result, so many lives are ruined for no good reason.

[Eryn]

Any time that one partner draws a line in the sand there is a severe problem with the marriage and it probably isn't CDing. Sometimes it is the person being restricted (ie: alcoholism) and other times it is the person doing the restricting being unreasonable. Marriage is a partnership, not a dictatorship.

[ReineD]

If you know who you are in your 20s/30s or before you get married, and your partner goes into the relationship also knowing or finds out within a relatively short time after marriage, I don't think it is something that can become negotiable down the road.

But, our membership straddles an important landmark, which was the advent of the internet with the explosion of TG sites and resources such as this message board. So, for those of our members who struggled with knowing who they were decades ago prior to their marriages and it took them years to come to terms with the CDing, consideration must be made not only for the wife who finds out many years after their lives together are established, but also for the CDer himself who may still struggle with feeling completely comfortable being girly with his wife (depending on her acceptance levels), since their history together is solidly as husband/wife sans the CDing.

You'll get different answers depending on which generation our members belong to, or whether they've already divorced because of the strain and ensuing unhappiness that results from having kept the CDing under wraps for so many years. I should think the older CDers who are still married will be more likely to accommodate a wife's queasiness by adopting a don't ask don't tell policy for the reasons mentioned above and also because divorce is expensive.

[eluuzion]

When I am interacting with another person, I actively listen. But my focus is rarely on the words that come out of their mouth, particularly in a crisis scenario like your example. I pay attention to what they are "really" saying, which is seldom the words they speak. The immediate position they are verbalizing is always just one piece of a larger puzzle.

It is difficult to make a judgment call on an isolated incident without having any "background" on the historical events that preceded it. But this example does not require much background. When a partner issues an “ultimatum” it is always a symptom of a seriously dysfunctional communication problem and an equally problematic personality issue.

An ultimatum rarely produces a constructive outcome or works productively as a relationship strategy in the long term. It is a final attempt by a perpetrator to take back the control of a relationship. The “target” has been placed in a no-win position. Agreeing to follow the demands of the person is only reinforcing unacceptable behavior. (which will continue to be employed until they control virtually every aspect of their partner’s life).

There is only one healthy response when all other options are cut off. The only option is to counter the ultimatum with a constructive one. “Agree to attend counseling to repair the communication breakdown ~or end the relationship.”

The issue at hand is irrelevant. What matters is the fact that the person views the “ultimatum approach” as a viable option in a relationship. It is the “sandbox bully” technique of elementary school children carried into adulthood. It is a closed-ended “choice” offered by a self-interested person that has no emotional commitment vested in the welfare of their “partner”. This is not a strategy that repairs itself or is repaired by the instigator. It requires counseling to change.

just my opinion...

:love:

[suchacutie]

Having read this thread carefully, I do think I need to expand the thoughts I was presenting.

I do agree that there is a time for an ultimatum. However, I feel that the person making the ultimatum is saying (and it does seem that you are all agreeing with this) "this is it...I can't go any farther in this direction", and that is, by definition, a breakdown in communication. At that point there is no longer an alternative, no longer a basis for communication. As I said, there is a time for this kind of action, but it is drastic and does presuppose that the negative alternative is suddenly viable.

It can be effective if the recipient of the ultimatum has viable alternatives. It puts the recipient in the position to make all the compromises. I see that as a breakdown in the compromise process in that it's all one way. Yes, there is a time for this, but when it gets to this point it is already a sad situation, and a crisis, for sure.

LOL...I'm not sure that what I've clarified is in agreement with everyone else or not. This is a wonderfully sticky subject :)

tina

[Alexiz]

I stopped for 6 months..did conselling. She moved out then, and wanted to call every night to ask what I was wearing. Then I told her I was tired of it and was going to be myself and she could stay gone. So she did.

I had to understand that she would never be happy..or trust me.

To be honest, we had SMALL issues that I was tired of ignoring to keep the peace.

Em

This kind of makes me reinforce what I've been thinking all long...

If my partner had an issue with who I really am, then I don't see how we can continue the relationship and get past other ordeals. I just feel that it's necessary for them to understand who you are and respect that. If they offer the whole ultimatum thing.. maybe it's best if you just found someone who can be more accepting.

Everyone's situation is different, I'm not saying things are black and white.. but if it were up to me, my answer is just that. If they can't love me for who I am then it won't work out.. I just couldn't deal with other issues if they couldn't accept me to begin with.

[Alice Torn]

That is why, I have become cynical and very cautious about ever dating again. I have never been married. But, knowing that i have this ingrained issue, and many others, and the other person will, I have become afraid to be in a relationship.

[Inna]

I suppose this is an unanswerable question, on one hand acceptance in a relationship should always be reciprocal, however, two members of such relationship seldom have identical character and emotional charge or ability. In fact, this difference between them becomes attractive for reasons of wanting what "you do not have" and making therefore a family unit that is much more verse and whole. But just the same, every little untold detail, weather Cding or addictions of any sort can destroy this finely tuned, ever fragile balance.

Especially as mentioned by Reine, for most, our transgenderism was a secret which we our selves failed to understand the mechanics of and were under the impression that one day it will go away forever (little did we know). Then when we finally had to reveal this phenomena to our loved ones, they in turn misunderstood it for declaration of being someone else, or did they, perhaps we our selves never realized that in fact we were a different person but didn't allow this notion to the surface until now.

As I have said before, there is an aspect of selfishness running its fingers through our psyche, on one hand we must allow selfishness to finally discover full blast of who is hiding behind all this pretense of a mask we spent our life building and also our loved ones must now become a little selfish them selves to decipher their self and time in the relationship and what got lost in the translation.

Reveal then seems to me as a inevitable separation and somewhat dismissal of the old status quo and the fresh look on what is at hand. Often we must understand that once our wifes will look at the situation from present point of view, they will see someone entirely foreign with bunch of familiar traits.
If your wife told you "I am truly a man and always was fantasizing about Jeeps and boxing and often of being with the girl " we would suddenly find our selves on the other side taking a long good look at this. And this perspective doesn't even take our already full knowledge of transgenderism, think if you weren't at all a transgender and you heard those words, what then......................................

[TGMarla]

That's a helluva answer, Reine. I think once again you've hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what has happened in my marriage. She went through a tough time wrestling with all this, but eventually came to the realization that this really didn't change who I am, and was not a reason to end a perfectly good marriage. She does not hold it against me in any discernable way. However, we did adopt an unspoken "don't ask, don't tell" policy over it. And that's where it stands today.

[Eryn]

But, our membership straddles an important landmark, which was the advent of the internet with the explosion of TG sites and resources such as this message board. So, for those of our members who struggled with knowing who they were decades ago prior to their marriages and it took them years to come to terms with the CDing, consideration must be made not only for the wife who finds out many years after their lives together are established, but also for the CDer himself who may still struggle with feeling completely comfortable being girly with his wife (depending on her acceptance levels), since their history together is solidly as husband/wife sans the CDing.

That is one of the best expressions of this idea that I've come across.

The fact that one dresses does not mean that one understands CDing. It was only after being exposed to information on the Internet that I realized that I wasn't just a solitary deviant. Solitary deviants don't tend to discuss their deviance with anyone, including their spouses. The information I picked up here and elsewhere on the net was what gave me the courage to talk to my wife about my CDing.

[Jane G]

Oh why must life be full of priorities. Well this time I'm sure, if my wife asked me to give up I would try and I would fail and we would get over it and still have a great life together. :hugs: Have tried that before as I recall.

However, as Karen said, if she asked me to give up Sport, I'd carry here to the court on my surf board.

I love cross-dressing I expect I will go on cross-dressing until the day I'm gone. But there is so much more to life as well, it took me a lot of years to understand that last bit. When I was younger I thought about transitioning quite deeply. But over a long period of time I found who I am. A man with a feminine side that needs to be expressed sometimes, simples.:eg:

[ReineD]

But there is so much more to life as well, it took me a lot of years to understand that last bit. When I was younger I thought about transitioning quite deeply. But over a long period of time I found who I am. A man with a feminine side that needs to be expressed sometimes, simples.:eg:

There's something to be said about growing older and getting to know ourselves. It happened to me too. Anyway, glad to hear you say this. You sound as if you are at peace with yourself. :)

[SweetIonis]

[QUOTE=Alexia Elliot;2531977 Often we must understand that once our wifes will look at the situation from present point of view, they will see someone entirely foreign with bunch of familiar traits.
If your wife told you "I am truly a man and always was fantasizing about Jeeps and boxing and often of being with the girl " we would suddenly find our selves on the other side taking a long good look at this. And this perspective doesn't even take our already full knowledge of transgenderism, think if you weren't at all a transgender and you heard those words, what then......................................[/QUOTE]

I think way you have framed this provides the key for responding to the notion that somehow a woman who is confronted with the issue of her man cross dressing for the first time is somehow selfish or childish if she decides and expresses that it is something that she cannot tolerate. I think we have to bear in mind that when we are dealing with the relationship between two people, that a large component of the foundation of the attraction between the two consists of the mental imagery that they have about one another. As with our conceptualization of most things, there is the world in our heads and there is the real world and the two are VERY different things. A woman who finds herself in such a situation and says it's something she can't tolerate is not selfish for many reasons. First of all it is more or less a complicated thing depending on the psychological condition of those involved. Second of all, what if her friends and/or family find out. She could find herself to be the subject of much ridicule, regardless of if the ridicule is just. Furthermore women have the tendency to want to feel protected by a man. For some, femininity has the characteristics of being something that is beautiful but delicate. Because of this delicate aspect it is something that needs to be protected rather than something that offers protection. A woman who has such a conceptualization MAY feel that a man whose nature is to express femininity in such a fashion may not be able to offer her what she needs to feel secure. Whether or not that's true is irrelevant. The point is that she may feel that way and she has every right to just as much as the man may feel that he feels the need to cross dress for whatever reason. Therefore I fail to see how offering what has been termed an "ultimatum" is being selfish.

I hope no one takes that wrong and thinks I was bashing cross dressing. I was just trying to look at the thing from another perspective.

[Sophie86]

I think way you have framed this provides the key for responding to the notion that somehow a woman who is confronted with the issue of her man cross dressing for the first time is somehow selfish or childish if she decides and expresses that it is something that she cannot tolerate.

I would say that she is being selfish, but in a way that I approve of. She is defining her values, and asserting their importance to her. The reasons you offer for why a woman might not want a crossdresser for a husband are valid, as far as I'm concerned. A woman can respond in three ways: either she likes it, she hates it, or she's in the middle. If she likes it, muy bueno. If she's in the middle, she can make whatever compromises work for her. If she hates it, then I think she should leave and find a mate who gives her what she wants. Life's too short to stay in a bad situation.

[SweetIonis]

Sophie,

Again a great response. You are absolutely right that it is selfish because the fact of the matter is that at the end of the day EVERYTHING that we do has some degree of self interest in it. There is not philosopher worth his salt or person who has thought the matter out properly that disputes this point. So thanks for making that clear.

And yeah, everything you said was right on target, right on the money!

Way to go!!!!

[ReineD]

If she hates it, then I think she should leave and find a mate who gives her what she wants. Life's too short to stay in a bad situation.

What if she hates it, but she is interested in finding ways to make the marriage work because she loves her husband? Is she not entitled to have as much time to come to terms with this as her husband did? :)

[Badtranny]

What if she hates it, but she is interested in finding ways to make the marriage work because she loves her husband? Is she not entitled to have as much time to come to terms with this as her husband did? :)

Oh come on Reine, that could take forEVER!

[ReineD]

Badtranny, seriously, how long did it take the average CDs (of the prior generation ... I'm not talking about the 25 year old CDs today), to come to terms with themselves enough to tell their wives? 15 years? 25 years?

So why should a wife be asked to leave unless she accepts it right away? I think this is harsh.

You may also be discounting the love the husband and wife may feel for one another. Do you think it is realistic to just call everything off unless she immediately accepts?

I'm not pretending I know all the answers. I'm just saying that we can't make simple rules about it all. :)

[Badtranny]

Badtranny, seriously, how long did it take the average CDs (of the prior generation ... I'm not talking about the 25 year old CDs today), to come to terms with themselves enough to tell their wives? 15 years? 25 years?
So why should a wife be asked to leave unless she accepts it right away? I think this is harsh.
You may also be discounting the love the husband and wife may feel for one another. Do you think it is realistic to just call everything off unless she immediately accepts?
I'm not pretending I know all the answers. I'm just saying that we can't make simple rules about it all. :)


Oh, I agree with you. I was just being silly.

I don't know what got into me. ;-)

[Sophie86]

What if she hates it, but she is interested in finding ways to make the marriage work because she loves her husband? Is she not entitled to have as much time to come to terms with this as her husband did? :)

Sure, but when you say "come to terms with this," aren't you saying that she's making a commitment to learning how not to hate it? If she thinks that's possible, then by all means she should give it a shot. If she finds that she can't get over it, though, it would be better to leave than stick around and be miserable.



So why should a wife be asked to leave unless she accepts it right away? I think this is harsh.

Wait a minute, now. I didn't "ask" anyone to leave. I'm simply saying that leaving is in some cases the most moral decision to make. Good grief. I'm not going to run around trying to tell unaccepting wives to pack up their bags and git. What they do is none of my business. lol.

[SweetIonis]

What if she hates it, but she is interested in finding ways to make the marriage work because she loves her husband? Is she not entitled to have as much time to come to terms with this as her husband did? :)

I don't think anyone is saying that she should not in that situation. Sophie was responding to the scenario that I put forward which was that she WAS NOT prepared to do so when the situation was brought to her attention and as such her response was that the dressing had to stop as a condition for the relationship to continue. Furthermore it was assumed that the man was not able to give up the dressing. In that situation, as Sophie pointed out, the best course of action would be for them to part ways.

[Karren H]

Badtranny, seriously, how long did it take the average CDs (of the prior generation ... I'm not talking about the 25 year old CDs today), to come to terms with themselves enough to tell their wives? 15 years? 25 years?


Or 31 in my case!! And that was just me being sloppy!

[Dawn cd]

We were 40 years into our marriage when my wife and I first had a talk about crossdressing. She was surprised...and yet she wasn't. Over the course of a long marriage you get to know each other pretty well--even concerning things that are unspoken. My wife knew I had a femme side. SweetIonis mentions that relationships are shaped by the "mental images" people carry around about each other. Well, maybe that's true of young couples, but over the years wrong mental images get shucked off and--if partners are paying attention--a true image of the other blossoms in their place.

[Sophie86]

We were 40 years into our marriage when my wife and I first had a talk about crossdressing. She was surprised...and yet she wasn't. Over the course of a long marriage you get to know each other pretty well--even concerning things that are unspoken. My wife knew I had a femme side. SweetIonis mentions that relationships are shaped by the "mental images" people carry around about each other. Well, maybe that's true of young couples, but over the years wrong mental images get shucked off and--if partners are paying attention--a true image of the other blossoms in their place.

So what was her reaction? Was she angry? Disgusted? Disappointed?

[Dawn cd]

She was pretty calm. She said, "That's interesting." She's not ready to see me walking around in a dress, but then my style of dress-up is more gender-ambiguous than blatantly outre. I think as time goes on I can spread more sail.

[Billie Jean]

While dressing isn't my whole life I don't think I'll ever stop. My ex knew I dressed and didn't care as long as it wasn't all the time or in front of the kids. I'm just now really starting to have fun while dressed. Billie Jean

[SweetIonis]

We were 40 years into our marriage when my wife and I first had a talk about crossdressing. She was surprised...and yet she wasn't. Over the course of a long marriage you get to know each other pretty well--even concerning things that are unspoken. My wife knew I had a femme side. SweetIonis mentions that relationships are shaped by the "mental images" people carry around about each other. Well, maybe that's true of young couples, but over the years wrong mental images get shucked off and--if partners are paying attention--a true image of the other blossoms in their place.

Forty years of marriage! WOW!!! That's a LONG time. So how long have you been married total?

I have to disagree with your statement about the mental imagery. This is always true about everything that we do. Because how we view the world is ALWAYS shaped by our MENTAL conceptualization of the external sensory, emotional, intellectual stimuli that we are constantly being fed at every moment. Over and above that, this input is being filtered through are conception of who we are, i.e. what Freud referred to as the ego. No sentient person can escape this. It would not be possible for you to relate to your wife as a spouse unless you felt that was what you are, to one degree or another. But that's where a big question, that has exercised the greatest of minds since the dawn of rational thinking in human society, comes in. Just exactly what are we? You did not consider yourself to be the spouse of your wife before you met her. And it probably won't happen, but it's conceptually possible that you may find that you both may go separate ways to other people, who you then will feel that they are your spouse. It does happen, so the point is that can you really truly say that you are her spouse in terms of absolute reality, or is that just mental imagery that we create in order to facilitate a pleasurable experience.

I know that's pretty heavy stuff, but it's food for thought.

[Dawn cd]

Ionis, yeah I agree in general (altho not a Freudian), but all I'm saying is that our "images" of each other are always undergoing correction. Illusions get stripped away, and over a long period of time our image of the other brings us closer and closer to the core reality of that person. Of course we have to take into account that the other person is always changing, too.

[SweetIonis]

Well I'm not a Freudian either, but I do think he was on mark on some things and helped to bring forward some tools that can be useful in one's attempt to understand reality.

I agree that time has it's way of stripping away various illusions that we might have. That's why I personally find it useful to give some time to observe a person's patterns of behavior before I get too deeply involved with them.

[Sophie86]

She was pretty calm.

Mine too, although granted we'd only been married 14 yrs at the time.

[2B Natasha]

I suppose the question is what if she asked you to stop and you tried. Furthermore let's assume that you tried and it was inflicting some substantial psychological conflict. The question is this, do you think that would be sufficient grounds to end the relationship?

Yes I think it is. I tried to quite and live that life. I became tormented, anger, resentful, withdrawn and life is just to short for that. I/we ended that marriage. It took awhile. Almost two years to get back on track and like myself. Now that I do I couldn't go back to living that lie of a life. My current SO is one of the great things that has happened to me, She is incredible. But even for her, I would not give this side of me up. Not that she would ever ask, just if she did.

[SweetIonis]

Yes I think it is. I tried to quite and live that life. I became tormented, anger, resentful, withdrawn and life is just to short for that. I/we ended that marriage. It took awhile. Almost two years to get back on track and like myself. Now that I do I couldn't go back to living that lie of a life. My current SO is one of the great things that has happened to me, She is incredible. But even for her, I would not give this side of me up. Not that she would ever ask, just if she did.

Well, I'm so happy for you! That demonstrates that sometimes, it's better for two people to move on, rather than drag each other down into a miserable abyss of unhappiness.

[Kate J]

I was thinking about the thread where someone said they had been dressing for 35 years but had to now stop because of their SO.


I think this was a post that I made a while back.

To give an insight or update it has been about 4 of 5 months now since I told her about my dressing. While I have stopped, my desires or feelings are still there as most of you understand, but for the love of my wife and wellbeing of our mirage, I have stopped dressing for now and yes, I have purged yet again, as requested by my wife. But as time goes on and the more I think about it, the more I want to do it, the harder it gets, so eventually I will have to talk to her about it, but for now I am just letting things settle down.

One of the main things I did at the start of all this was telling a couple of people about all this. One was my cousin and the other was the wife’s mother. This was one of the hardest things I have done in my life other than telling the wife, but after it my stress level went down which has helped me get through all this.

While I know I won’t be able to stop in the long term, I am able to control my dressing for now so I can give my wife time to absorb all of this as I don’t think she would leave if I started again. I think if I am upfront with here from this point on as many have said in these forums it should all work out, fingers crossed.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Crossdressing is like the Mafia you just can't quit.

Orchid

[Kate J]

Crossdressing is like the Mafia you just can't quit.

Orchid

So true. It's always in the back of your mind and when it comes back it hits you hard.

[putter288]

I'm with Miss hutton maybe give up dressing for my SO but Ice hockey NEVER
been doing both since i was 10 and enjoy them both ......

[Tara D. Rose]

Tara said: "I can get another wife. They're dime a dozen. You meet them, they lie to you, pretend to be all that they are not, after marriage, they cheat on you ,then you divorce."

Misogynism anyone? Tara, that statement is unworthy of this forum and probably unworthy of you. You aren't angry by any chance, are you?

No Dawn ,I am a realist. How many times have you been married?

[SweetIonis]

I'm with Miss hutton maybe give up dressing for my SO but Ice hockey NEVER
been doing both since i was 10 and enjoy them both ......

Ice hockey must be really popular up in William Penn's neck of the woods!

Seriously, do you really mean that?

[putter288]

for sure SweetIonis the both get in your blood but once you become part of a team it is hard to give that up
ask most pros what they miss most and they will tell you its the friendship and companionship of their team mates

who would guess the guy that lead the league in P I M 's the last 3 yrs .... wore lace underwear :)

[celeste26]

It would actually be more expensive to stop for me since nearly 95% of my wardrobe is femme so I would have to go and spend a lot of money to go back the other way. Now for a women to shop that's one thing but for a guy to shop ... who knows?

[SweetIonis]

for sure SweetIonis the both get in your blood but once you become part of a team it is hard to give that up
ask most pros what they miss most and they will tell you its the friendship and companionship of their team mates

who would guess the guy that lead the league in P I M 's the last 3 yrs .... wore lace underwear :)

LMAO!!! Well you might want to keep the underwear thing to yourself.

I used to be heavily involved in sports so I know what you mean. Hockey was not so big in part of the woods I grew up in. So it was kind of far out to see you and Karren feel so strongly about it.

[darla_g]

i would think the only way a SO could ask you stop is if you were both embarrassed or it is causing another problem like you are missing work over it. strong dislike isn't enough there would have to be negative consequences

[SweetIonis]

Not all women are put together that way.