This is so hard to articulate without offending.....

[Momarie]

Please Please LISTEN to me and PLEASE don't read anything into what I am trying to say/ask?

I am just trying to figure this out and hopefully give you an insight to one GG's thoughts.

There are always going to be the following kind of ~ Hit the GG up the side of the head with a sledge hammer ~ posts:

GG's are jealous of us because we are prettier/sexier and go to far more effort, therefore, we can only be far more attractive.

They get old and fat (roll outta bed into cat vomit) and don't care about their appearance what so ever.

Or there is this ~

Why don't they dress in feminine lingerie anymore?
They don't wear silk stockings, garters, ball gowns, cocktail dresses, girdles, heavy make-up, pantyhose or the retro ideal I was led to be attracted to by so called society and advertising.

I am nostalgic for the retro glamorous look I was taught to idealize in my childhood and am now (understandably) forced to re-create it on my own, because in my minds eye it no longer exists....and I hunger for that feminine ideal...I miss it so much.


But perhaps from a GG's point of view we see (in these "kinds" of threads/responses):

The one thing I really knew, was that I was the woman in our relationship and you LED ME TO BELIEVE you wanted to be the man. (Because of fear, lack of faith in my love for you or courage, it was easier for you to let me think that there was something wrong with me, than for you to tell me the truth).

But not only do you want to compete with me now as a woman and take that away from me....you won't be satisfied unless I "admit" you are a better/prettier/sexier/more feminine woman than me.
Was it your proof and purpose to come to this moment all along?

Please don't blame me or lay all this on me because you cross dress, it's not my fault either.

I didn't grow up in an era of "I would be taken care of (if I were only silly and stupid)".
I didn't grow up in an era of "If I could just set aside my smarts to be pretty".
I grew up in the era of cover your OWN sweet ass, get smart, work HARD and get paid as much as you can...just in case.
I grew up just as damaged as you....more so if you really want to go there.

I didn't grow up in the era of this "forever romantic embrace"....and neither did you.
(Shit Hun, you were the one doing the groping and don't try to re-write history now to suit your fantasy "virginal teenage yet I'm almost 60 years old" beliefs).

Please don't hide behind your perceived "I'm afraid, I'm scared, I am weak like a woman" talking in bumper stickers bullshit and expect me to respect you.....I'm not the bad guy and I'm not going to let you make me into one to pander to your silly whims.

These 37 years we shared were not a whim or fantasy to me.....they never were.
But if you insist on making them something I never thought they were, then I am just stupid for hanging on....

And I am NOT stupid....for very long.

Sorry folks,
....just venting in a very unattractive heart-felt hurt kinda way.
PLEASE, just take a peek into a GG's hurt....nothing more than yours and nothing less.
But it hurts all the same.

[Engendered]

Hi Momarie,
I can't really relate to what you have/are/will be going through, and I can't really relate to being on the flipside of it, but I can relate to someone being open and honest with their feelings.

So a heartfelt :hugs: for you.

[Debglam]

Momarie,

Let me say that as a married CD'er on this forum, I occasionally see posts like some of the ones you're referring to that make me want to scream "Delete, Delete, Delete!"

From what I have seen so far, CD/TG/TS,etc. is a percentage of the population, I believe 1 in 500 or something like that, and that this aspect is unrelated to a lot of other stuff. We all have different backgrounds, religious beliefs, political views, etc. This means that one person on this forum saying something (stupid) does not mean that many (any) of us agree. Please try to keep that in mind. I'm not out to correct the world so if I see a post here that I disagree with or think is just ludicrous, I usually just move on without comment. I'm sure a lot of the others here are the same way. Hope this helps a little.

Oh, since you mentioned it I do have to comment:

I have had these gender issues since I was a toddler, meaning probably before my wife was born! I would guess that the truth is most of us are the same way, so the idea that something your SO is doing, not doing, wearing, or not wearing has ANYTHING!!!!! to do with CD/TG/TS etc. is a load of crap, IMHO.

[Katesback]

I an not sure how you can say a GG would be jealous of a guy in a dress. To add to this many CDs take thier expression of a female to a level that is fantastical. Finally if we exclude the static appearance of a CD and animate them they very often DO NOT have the expressions that women have. Some make no effort to act like a woman and others exadurate thier expressions to the point that they dont look real. I wont even mention anything about thier voice. It all boils down to the fact that a CD is a man* and NOT a woman. I have only met a very small number of CDs that could even pull off a good presentation of a woman for a short period of time.

I suppose you can think anything you want but I seriously doubt any great number if GGs are jealous of CDs.



* Noting that some CDs are actually TS but have yet to admit it for 1000 reasons.

[Eryn]

Momarie, you've kind of laid a minefield for anyone to respond, since virtually anything they say might be construed as "reading something into" what you wrote!

Please understand, however, that what you are describing seems to be a composite of the worst characteristics of CDers.

My wife has nothing to be jealous of when I have to spend an hour on makeup just to look somewhat feminine. There is no way that I could present as a more attractive woman than she is. Compete with her? She's already across the finish line while I'm still in the starting blocks!

If some CDers go to more effort on their appearance it is because they are *really* into that, just like some GGs. Not everyone (CDers included) exert that much effort, nor should they have to. Some women (and some CDers) are perfectly happy in jeans and a T-shirt and no makeup.

Some CDers yearn for the standards (or perceived standards) of an earlier era. There is nothing particularly wrong with that as long as they don't force it on others. Heck, some people dress up like Civil War soldiers and medieval knights in search of the feeling of a bygone era!

Now, I have a question. Did you expect the man you married to remain exactly as he was? Expecting a man to remain static in his thoughts and personality is just as unrealistic as a man expecting his wife to remain static in weight and appearance. We all change and develop in many ways and change is the only constant.

I'll accept that you feel hurt. He probably feels hurt as well. That is exactly my situation with my wife. We could continue to chew at each other and try to assign blame for our various hurts, but that would gain nothing for our relationship. Rather than dwelling on the past we've decided to direct our attention forward and I believe that we're both happier in that decision. I gained some freedom to be "me" and my wife got a calmer, more helpful husband. It's an ongoing process that will never be complete, but that is what life is about.

[Babette]

The sum of all fears is at hand as disrespect and insensitivity move toward critical mass. No Marie, I am not offended by your sentiments. I am often bothered about the same forum posts that you have mentioned. That same sledge hammer carries a lot of momentum and smacks a few of us too.

Venting is essential first aid for the hurting soul. Never deny yourself the opportunity. I wish you a speedy recovery from all that is hurting you.

Babette

[Momarie]

Thanks for your responses,

I would not be here if I didn't care about the Crossdressers, TG's, TS's, FTM's, MTF's, FAB's etc here on this forum and elsewhere.
Most of you get this about me.

I didn't write this post to go tit for tat or for someone keeping score to make sure I know how they feel.
After all these years, I get it.

I wrote my post so someone could see me, that hadn't seen me or what I (or another woman like me) felt before.

It's raw and it isn't pretty, I get it.

Pain (yours or mine) seldom is.

[Annaliese2010]

You have every right to vent but would be helpful to try to take all that and articulate the issue down to a couple/few sentences. Sounds like you've had a bad go of it. Sorry :(

Maybe you are/were simply with the wrong mate and her being TG was secondary to more fundamental incompatibility issues i.e. there would've been bitter conflict manifested in another way regardless.

[Pythos]

The one thing I really knew, was that I was the woman in our relationship and you LED ME TO BELIEVE you wanted to be the man. (Because of fear, lack of faith in my love for you or courage, it was easier for you to let me think that there was something wrong with me, than for you to tell me the truth).

I find this statement to be one of the more troublesome and common ones I see. Why the lables? Why the "I am *this* in the relationship, and you led me to believe you were *this*. I don't understand this. Why can you both not be happy loving one another outside of societal rules of who rules the house or who is the softer? Why is there this sort of thing.


But not only do you want to compete with me now as a woman and take that away from me....you won't be satisfied unless I "admit" you are a better/prettier/sexier/more feminine woman than me.

I have heard women themselves in reference to CDs that we are trying to take away stuff from them. But why is it we are taking from the GGs. I for one am not. I don't want to stop women from wearing what they want. That is the key. I don't tell people what to wear, and yet people are perfectly willing to tell me how to dress.

Why is this a competition? Who made it one? I'm sorry but I don't try to out Beauty my girl (or didn't try to) she was beautiful in her own right, and as I have said I go for an exotic look usually.


I am weak like a woman
Another troublesome, and unfortunately common statement.

Momarie,

When you were brought up, you were brought up with arbitrary rules of how girls were to behave, right? I don't think you are old enough to have been denied a line of work simply based on your sex, but if you were, how did that feel.

When I was growing up I saw girls being able to play sports, wear pants, have short hair, and so on and so forth. I on the other hand, despite my wish, could not wear skirts, have long hair, or do "girly" things like dance (ballet), because "boys didn't do that". My buddies allowed that mantra to be pounded into their minds, whereas I did not. I saw there was a double standard since very young.

Many many men HIDE, you know this. They hide our of complete and total fear. What saddens me is when CDing or even the preference for feminine styles for themselves is approached as if it is a disease.

[sterling12]

Koooooool!!!!!!! I DON'T have a Problem with what you have written. From my Perceptions, most of it is The Truth, and since it's your opinion, I would imagine it's ALL Reality for you. First Time I read some of The Things Malcolm X had to say about White People, I thought The Same Thing, "he's right....for him, we just have a hard time accepting his reality!"

However, usually when one of The Gals writes something like this, we get a lot of "Kiss-Up" Replies: "Oh, I've always loved and respected all women; and I love you and each and every other feminine person." "Please forgive us for being Pigs, and insulting The Goddess!" For Once, I would enjoy seeing that NOT happen. It's cloying, and pandering, and probably insincere.

Try to consider that a lot of T-Folk never got to have a "Puberty." We don't have a clue about The Behavior of Women, because we simply did not experience it. Because virtually all of us, never got "dolled up" for an event, felt The Pain of being "Not pretty enough, not worthy enough" and got rejected, divorced, or beaten, we can't imagine why a female wouldn't want to spend all her time trying to become Marilyn Monroe.

So, we "idealize" and "fantasize" a lot! And, because we are really men underneath it all, we can be very blunt! Instead of being Diplomatic like most women: "I'm not sure if that outfit is really You," we tend to say things in general terms which often offend: "Wow, can't understand why women wear these ugly clothes! Why can't they be more feminine like they used to be in The ___'s?"

By the way, these are not excuses for bad behavior. Some of this stuff is probably said because some people are just thoughtless and insensitive. Just try and understand that it's not all like that. Try to swallow some of The Bile, and chock it up to Silliness.

Ultimately, what we have around here is Opinions, and probably nothing more. If we take them for what they are, (creating dialog) and do not take them personally; eventually we all learn something and GROW!

Can we Kiss and make up now?

Peace and Love, Joanie

[t-girlxsophie]

Not offended in the least,but just want to say hand on heart I've never treated my Wife to any of the CDer Insults and misconceptions (took me a half hour and prob still not articulated that too well myself) that you wrote about.It would be like a dagger thru my heart if anything I have done in my Crossdressing has hurt my Lovely Wife,I am sure she would be quick enough to tell me if I was being an unthinking prat

Sophie

[sometimes_miss]

These 37 years we shared were not a whim or fantasy to me.....they never were.
But if you insist on making them something I never thought they were, then I am just stupid for hanging on....
See, it's this that gets me; people are happy until you shatter their image of who they think we are. After all, we're still the very same person we always were. Only their interpretation of who we are has changed. Momarie, you've been with the very same person all the time. The only thing that's changed, is you! You now know something you didn't before; whether that upsets you or not is up to you to decide. There are always details about our mates that we don't know, and usually it makes absolutely no difference if you, say, find out that they liked to read, oh lets say, sergeant rock comic books and wear fatigues in secret while doing it, most people wouldn't bat an eye. But if he likes to read Cosmo and wear a cheerleader skirt, that bothers them because it doesn't 'fit' with who WE think they should be.
But we don't get to choose what we like to do, or what we want out of life; it's just something that comes to us. Sure, we have to decide whether to pursue it and be happy or ignore it and be miserable. But we don't choose the desires themselves. To all the GG's out there, please try not to let yourself be bothered too much by our occasional behaviors that have traditionally been reserved for females; any more than we are when you decide to want to try out martial arts.
It's how we treat you, and the rest of the people around us, that counts.

And Pythos wrote this: Why the lables? Why the "I am *this* in the relationship, and you led me to believe you were *this*. I don't understand this. Why can you both not be happy loving one another outside of societal rules of who rules the house or who is the softer? Why is there this sort of thing.
Because people are generally sexually attracted to who they think we are. When that changes, the sexual attraction can go out the window and the romantic feelings can be destroyed. Unless they have a really good understanding of all the psychological mechanisms at work, and even then, once that 'magic', or 'chemistry' is gone, everything seems changed to the woman involved. Romantic love is, after all, just a hormonally induced state generated by sexual desire and the need for physical affection and attention, reinforced by the physical and psychological pleasure generated in sort of a positive feedback loop. But people don't want to know all that, they just want it.
As oddities in the gender continuum, we're stuck in the middle; in general, the very vast majority of those who are attracted to masculine people want males, and people attracted to feminine people want females (this is supported by the bisexual people I've met, who've reinforced that concept; and while I'm sure there are those who like the reverse, it seems there aren't nearly as many of them out there). So we don't 'fit' into either category.

[Rianna Humble]

These 37 years we shared were not a whim or fantasy to me.....they never were.
But if you insist on making them something I never thought they were, then I am just stupid for hanging on....
See, it's this that gets me; people are happy until you shatter their image of who they think we are. After all, we're still the very same person we always were. Only their interpretation of who we are has changed. Momarie, you've been with the very same person all the time. The only thing that's changed, is you!

It seems that you read something into this quote that I am struggling to see there. Momarie talks about her memories of a long relationship and how the partner is telling her that her memories are not what actually happened, and you see someone who has problems because she has changed. Do you not think that it is possible that the problem is actually as stated?

I have read others who talk about intimate moments shared with a loved one or life partner then after the revelation of the cross-dressing, the partner reveals that during those intimate moments they were actually imagining themselves dressed. Are you positive that in those circumstances it is only the cis partner who is different and not the revelation that their happy memory was not what it seemed?

Remembering that Momarie is not only talking of her own experience, I think that the following quote is quite significant


Because of fear, lack of faith in my love for you or courage, it was easier for you to let me think that there was something wrong with me, than for you to tell me the truth

Many cross-dressers may honestly think that by hiding their cross-dressing they are "protecting" their SO, but it seems to me they are revealing that they do not trust her to be able to deal with this knowledge and still love the cross-dresser. When the truth finally does come out, the wife/partner/SO will naturally wonder what was wrong with her that prevented the husband from trusting her.

Momarie has shown that despite her own negative experiences, she wants to be supportive of our communities. I think that makes her an extraordinarily good person.

[ReineD]

Luckily, Momarie, it is the small, yet obnoxiously loud minority who say things like we are jealous of them, or they are prettier than us, or we don't measure up to their ideal of beauty or femininity. Once you isolate a particular member who says such things, you should just put him on "Ignore". You'll then more easily see a forum full of CDs who don't try to make themselves feel better by putting GGs down. :)

But, you also speak of having a SO change to the point where he rewrites his past, which causes you to question the quality of your past together and this must be enormously difficult. My only suggestion is to walk away, if you can. Hold your head up high, and try to fill your life with other people now. :sad:

[sometimes_miss]

Do you not think that it is possible that the problem is actually as stated?

I have read others who talk about intimate moments shared with a loved one or life partner then after the revelation of the cross-dressing, the partner reveals that during those intimate moments they were actually imagining themselves dressed. Are you positive that in those circumstances it is only the cis partner who is different and not the revelation that their happy memory was not what it seemed?
This type of thing can be viewed in other things besides crossdressing; a perfect example would be to eat at a restaurant serving food from a different culture while on vacation. They serve up a fabulous delicious meal, and everyone enjoys it. Then the next day while discussing the meal, the waiter during breakfast tells them what type of animals they were actually eating (say, crow instead of pheasant), and they are suddenly upset. Did the meal change? No. It would be just as delicious again, assuming it were to be prepared the same way. But their image of what they were eating changed. Same with people. It's the same person. Nothing about them has changed. But we see them as different, even though they are exactly the same. As in other threads, we never tell someone our entire past lives; I don't think I ever told anyone that when I was 8, I stole a comic book. Most people wouldn't think that was a big deal, as I never grew up to be a theif. Would that bother a potential mate? Probably not. But technically, I am a theif. Yet, being a crossdresser is a much bigger deal. More women would date convicted prisoners than would date a crossdresser. But they're both things that do not affect the other parts of our lives, as evidenced by so many women living with us for years and not knowing we have any feminine feelings. In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't make any difference as long as we are functioning 'normally' the rest of the time. But it DOES screw up women's image of who we are, because they need to believe us to be the masculine stereotype that they want, because that's what they are attracted to.

[ReineD]

Sometimes-miss, Momarie can correct me if I'm wrong, but the issue is not that she didn't know about the CDing. Momarie can correct me on this as well, but I get the impression she was supportive. It is that the gender dynamics and the very fabric of her SO has changed, to the point where HE is now rewriting their history. He is the one who changed, not Momarie.

[Kate Simmons]

I, for one, appreciate your heartfelt honest feelings. We need a lot more of that here if we are truly going to understand and appreciate one another as people with feelings.:)

[noeleena]

Hi.

We need to look beyond the looks , This is about , Psychologically Mentalally & Emotional. go through that & then men may be will understand were we are coming from . Marrage is a partnship not a sex trip in bed because many men dont . wont understand we are wired so differently . the relastionship is very different for us , we marry a male . man thats what we see accept & understand a male .

Not a male dressed up & compeating with us & they do. thats a fact , some dont i know that, because they can never be a woman. female yet many do or try to.

Its very easy to ask how would you work through this. as men you cant so ill put a if & then you still wont because your not wired as a female / woman. any way would you just accept with out & your S O . partner soul mate say's to you im a male or as the case may be & im not how you saw or see me any more im changeing to the other side , or your sexy mate is now a male.
so how would you really answer till you have come to that situastion you dont know ,

So try & think from our point of view how we see it how we see the whole situstion some of you will have an idear yet go back up to my three big words , a different matter youll find ,

a glib comment of oh i can accept my partner no probs . think again when you;v been through it its very different the other side, looking back.

Transtsion is not so easy for ether male or female, & when a partner is involved its a totaly different matter.

Oh & changeing the past to suit the now lieing to cover up & make you feel better . does not change any thing.

...noeleena...

[Inna]

I truly believe that our tendency to damage, distress and anxiety is totally instigated by fears, guilt, darkness we carry within. Throughout our lives we are bombarded by inadequacies, the message reverberates almost on daily basis from, parents, peers, society and religious avenues. After a while we know how wrong we are and how we ought to be. A perfect road to a inevitable social and self disaster of a being. This world is truly perfect but our cultures dismiss the beauty in it and choose lies and conformity to suit the order. I have said it before as I will always repeat my self, TRUTH is the only way to enlightenment. But this truth is not one of comfort and egocentric pleasure ride, No, this truth is about ME, about my demons, my fears, my self. One must be ready to be chastised, crucified to obtain this truth, but the rewards are beyond comprehension. True freedom of self, and finally the state of awakening to see the wonders of life in front of our feet. This beauty is there now, right in front of us, but we fail to see it through our blinded by fear, sight.
I write this because I am not seeking for you to stop hurting nor for him to seek such, I am writing this because I sincerely hope both of you can look into your own, dig deep and cry about your pain and share it. I write because I want you to allow the hurt to come to the surface and dissipate in truth, through which I KNOW you shall find what you are both looking for.

I offer you love which I am just a messenger of, and it is not my own to give, Inna.

[Gaby2]

Hi Momarie,
it would be nice to think that you feel better for venting your hurt and your point of view as a GG... perhaps you do! Hopefully you do.
You have held up a mirror and I find myself "back-heeling" trying to avoid having to admit my own inadequacies, both present and past.

In the immediate present, for about a week, I have been spending a lot more time logged-in on the forum (and crossdressing) than in the previous few months.
And guess what... my understanding GG/SO is not so happy about that.
All of a sudden (today!), I'm worried not only about what she thinks, but what she expects of me.
Oh, oh... red alert!
Perhaps things were going too well...
It begs the question: is there a deeper reason, why I have become more active again?

It was desperation and very much a last throw of the dice when I separated from my Ex 3 years ago and last year divorced.
That was the start of seriously coming to terms with my past and in particular a few significant aspects of my behaviour as a stay-at-home husband and father.
Crossdressing was relevant but had had little to do with aesthetics in this context - it was just part of me lying... and I was doing that at an increasingly alarming rate.
I'm now trying to make up for my failings.
I'm especially trying not to repeat my failings.

If it's any consolation, then I just want to say thanks to you (and to the people who answered) for writing.
We all have a rather special common bond.
It's comforting to know that you are out there as I try to deal with my own issues.

Gaby - dressed and fairly :)

[NicoleScott]

But not only do you want to compete with me now as a woman and take that away from me....you won't be satisfied unless I "admit" you are a better/prettier/sexier/more feminine woman than me.
Was it your proof and purpose to come to this moment all along?


In my years on the forum, reading all the posts I can, I've never read of a cd whose purpose is to compete with the wife in order to be prettier and sexier than she is. That many cd's are prettier than their wives doesn't mean that it was their purpose. Most of us acted on our cd desires long before meeting the to-be-wife.

[ReineD]

That many cd's are prettier than their wives doesn't mean that it was their purpose.

Nicole, this is exactly the type of comment that (I'm guessing) Momarie and most other GGs here object to. Allow me to explain.

Women worth their salt would never say anything like this. True, there are some catty, b*tchy women who walk around saying they are prettier than others, but for the most part such women are considered to be immature. Unevolved. Tactless. Full of themselves.

None of us can do anything about our physical attributes, be it the size of our noses, how close our eyes are together, whether or not we have protruding chins or flat cheeks, etc., whether we are built short & stocky or are tall and lithe. And I truly believe beauty to be only skin deep. You can have the most beautiful woman in the world in front of you, but if all she does is spew narcissism and negativity, she will not be someone you will learn to cherish. Thankfully, it is the beauty of someone's soul that shines through their eyes and smile, that transforms him or her to be the most attractive person you might know, no matter what physical assets he or she posesses.

So to take someone's physical attributes that conform to the popular notion of "ideal" beauty and say in a forum (or to the spouse's face in real life) this person is "prettier" than is the wife (if she wasn't born with similar features) is the epitome of crassness.

It is perfectly OK to not take it to such a personal level and say, for example, that her husband spends more time and money on fashion and makeup and is therefore more adorned than she is, but to say the husband is "prettier" or "more feminine" when femininity also comes from within, is just plain wrong.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I just ask that you remember that not all of us are like that. I have never, ever even had the thought that a GG was jealous of me, much less have ever said that to a GG. Some of us genuinely love and are attracted to our partners; I certainly felt that way about my former girlfriend and I never spared an opportunity to tell her that I loved her and that she was beautiful.

I believe I am morally obligated to tell a potential GG partner everything about me, and I mean everything, so she can make the decision whether or not she wants to get emotionally involved (and deal with all the issues I come with.) Maybe this is why I am so alone... but I would rather be honest to a fault and spare both of us any frustration and pain.

The wife has nothing to do with their partner's transvestism (or transsexualism), and the professional research into the root causes back that up. That is just a slap in the face designed to do nothing but hurt, and I wouldn't put up with it either.

Believe me, my former girlfriend was a smart, tough old broad and she would not have tolerated me talking down to her as you describe (not that I ever would.) You have more than every right to be angry about it and not take it either.

As for the issue of clothing preference, I am as guilty as any about wishing women would dress up more and wear the things I like. Still, I don't browbeat women about it, and I never compare myself and what I do to the life a GG. All rude and boorish behavior towards GGs and the way they dress aside, I would ask that GGs try to understand how these feelings toward female dress develop. They don't develop out of malicious feelings toward women; from a young age they dress often becomes associated with feelings of love, comfort and security and the desire to dress and have their partner dress is how it manifests itself later in life. That, of course, does not in any way condone any rude behavior toward GGs, whether one is a TV or not. I would just ask that GGs try to understand it from our perspective, as they ask us to see it from theirs.

[dilane]

So to take someone's physical attributes that conform to the popular notion of "ideal" beauty and say in a forum (or to the spouse's face in real life) this person is "prettier" than is the wife ... is the epitome of crassness.

It is perfectly OK to not take it to such a personal level and say, for example, that her husband spends more time and money on fashion and makeup and is therefore more adorned than she is, but to say the husband is "prettier" or "more feminine" when femininity also comes from within, is just plain wrong.

So true!! I cringe when I read those kinds of egotistical and denigrating comments.

[suchacutie]

WOW! I am so impressed with your post. One facet of my understanding is to realize, yet again, that my spouse is completely brilliant!

I was 55 that day when I dressed for the first time...and did it so my wife could see as well. Within 48 hours we had talked enough to set some ground rules. One was that she was only interested in her man romantically, and when she wanted her man, she would get him. Frankly, I would be insane not to agree with that (if you get my drift!), but it was the emotional aspect of that agreement that was most important. There are just "days like that" where we need to be "us against the world". Honestly, I like that too and couldn't imagine doing anything to damage that connectedness.

The second piece is that as she and I, or she and Tina (as the case may be) started to talk about what it's like to grow up as a girl, what it's like to be a woman, and the different psychologies involved, it became clear as a bell that she was the teacher and I was the learner about a world that I never knew existed. Heck, I wasn't the aloof male in our relationship, and yet there was so much that I just didn't know. Also, there is no way to reproduce that experience. At best I can try to mimic the end results, and with my wife's mentorship I am trying to get good at doing just that.

My last point is that whether we like it or not, what we are doing is the art of illusion (sorry for stealing that book title, but it's a good title (and a good book for those who haven't read it)). I will grant you that after 2 hours of hard work, Tina can have a pretty good impression on my wife, but it takes incredible work to maintain the illusion. All my wife has to do is get dressed! She has the ability to be feminine with jeans and a T shirt. Tina doesn't. My wife may be jealous of Tina's legs, but Tina is jealous of all of my wife!

My wife is the ideal to which Tina strives. That will never change, and luckily my wife is the patient teacher and confident that Tina needs in order to be able to find her true self. Kudos to my wife and all the women who have been able to help their men learn about their feminine selves. We owe a lot to all of you! Lest we forget....

Tina

[Kaitlyn Michele]

momarie...thnx for your heartfelt thoughts...it's very scary to lay them out in a forum...any forum

most transwomen do not feel prettier than gg women, we do not feel like our makeup skills make us somehow more feminine..we are the farthest thing from a "threat"...we just are who we are..

Most crossdressers are the same way...just trying to look and feel feminine..
to say that wives are sometimes threatened by being prettier, or better at fashion or makeup is delusional and self serving.. what wives are threatened by is the all consuming nature of dressing....they are threatened by the sexual nature of dressing, and by how the emulation of femininity (especially when it's something introduced after many years) intrudes on the long standing bonds between partners...they are afraid of losing their husband, and they are worried that the world will look down them for being with you (which by the way is the reason you didn't tell her in the first place...is she not entitled to this fear which you have taken off your shoulders and put on hers?)

the least a person can do when disclosing this and trying to get support from loved ones is to understand that your loved ones may feel a sense of betrayal and loss, and they may feel their trust in you was misplaced....just like you can't tell a cd to stop wanting to feel feminine , you can't tell your wife how to feel , and you can't tell her why she feels the way she feels..and trying to tell her how to feel highlights the superficial nature of your femininity...and if you are unwilling to address her concerns, then you are simply validating her concerns..

read Reine and Momaries post's and take them to heart....

[Eryn]

He is the one who changed, not Momarie.

I don't think that it is possible for either partner to be completely static over a period of time. We all change, and sometimes that change involves a different perception of who we were or who our partners were in the past.

[NicoleScott]

Reine (post #22), you are correct. I chose my words poorly. I didn't mean "prettier" even though I said it, "pretty" as in born with generally-accepted natural-born attractive physical attributes. As you put in your last paragraph, I meant "spends more time and money on fashion and makeup and is therefore more adorned than she is", and I should add, more effort to look glamorous.
I did not comment on femininity, as I agree with you that that is a whole 'nother matter.
I happen to be attracted to glamour. I like the look, whether on women, other cd's or myself. If I were asked to look at two women and pick one that's more "attractive" to me, I may pick the one that's more "glamorous" than the one with the "physical attributes". My wife doesn't take much time or effort to look glamorous; it's just not her thing. I'll never be prettier than she is. But I am more glamorous. That's not a judgement, good or bad, just how it is.
So I apologize for my poor choice of words to make my point that I don't know of any cd's whose purpose is to win a pretty contest with the wife. I did not intend to be egotistical or denigrating. By the way, I have read many posts from cd's who admire their wife's look and want to emulate it. That's not competing, but flattering.

[ReineD]

Nicole, fair 'nuff! Thanks for the clarification. :)

[L'eggs n' heels]

They get old and fat (roll outta bed into cat vomit) and don't care about their appearance what so ever.

Or there is this ~

Why don't they dress in feminine lingerie anymore?
They don't wear silk stockings, garters, ball gowns, cocktail dresses, girdles, heavy make-up, pantyhose or the retro ideal I was led to be attracted to by so called society and advertising.

I am nostalgic for the retro glamorous look I was taught to idealize in my childhood and am now (understandably) forced to re-create it on my own, because in my minds eye it no longer exists....and I hunger for that feminine ideal...I miss it so much.


Definitely something to that. The whole world had become "butch" and ugly and we're just trying to preserve a tradition and keep a little beauty in the world. Most women don't seem to give a rat's ass about beauty or femininity, they think it's hokey and they ridicule us for appreciating feminine beauty in any form whatsoever. Go ahead ladies, put on your dirty jeans, flannel shirt, baseball cap and work boots and go to the bar and watch the game while you eat lots pizza, drink lots of beer and pass lots of gas. While you're at it, go buy some chewing tobacco and spit on the floor, that way you'll have your "equality" and "dignity".

Sorry I'm a little bitter myself coming out of a divorce and all. A divorce is a great deal for the women and a sh1tty deal for the man. The woman gets freedom, money and a new lease on life. What does the man get? Loss of fortune, loss of love, ruined health, insanity and heartbreak.

[kendra_gurl]

Women worth their salt would never say anything like this. True, there are some catty, b*tchy women who walk around saying they are prettier than others, but for the most part such women are considered to be immatureInvolveded. Tactless. Full of themselves.

.

I am guilty of stating in other threads "my wife sometimes is jealous of Kendra". I have only said that in the context of repeating what she has told me. Its never been a negative thing on my part of trying to put her down. My wife has several times in conversations while we are out that she sure wished she still had the body to wear some of the things Kendra wears and has ask me how I feel when some people compliment or are obviously checking me out. That has nothing to do with her, other than that she does not get those sort of compliments from strangers. And that has nothing to do with me. I know she could if she set a goal of dressing differently and applying her makeup differently but that is NOT HER. She chooses to dress in the style she likes and that is perfectly okay with me.

I hesitate to say this. I mean no disrespect to anyone one and certainly not my wife. I accept her and love her as much as I ever have. She has a weigh problem. Not with obesity but she cannot wear clothing that she would like to wear and blames that on her weight. I have tried for years to help her but she is not willing to help herself get serious about losing weight. I accept that and never ever bring it up. she is the one who mentions it and usually only when I am wearing something she likes. The point is If she does feel any guilt about her weight when she sees me dressed and looking good its not because she dislikes that I have this figure its her realization that she could if she really made up her mind to try.

We both accept each other for who we are and with all our faults. While we are out with me as Ken No one ever gives me a second glance because I have changed dramatically over the past 42 years too. This is why I take such pride in creating the ILLUSION I am able to create. I am a man pretending, creating the illusion of being a female, I am fully aware of that as is my wife. She has never seemed upset about it because she is also comfortable with who she is . I have always thought when she has made any comment about the attention I receive it is more of her way of complimenting me than being bitchy thinking I was trying to compete with her for attention from others. SHE DOES NOT SEEK ATTENTION FROM OTHERS PERIOD.

I also created a thread and ask about if your wifes attire has an affect on your dressing. If you read the responses you will find that most said no. It had no affect on their dressing. I know most of the GG's here don't like that type of question because it just possibly makes them wonder about it themselves. Well this is a forum to ask questions and state opinions and make others think. How every question and answer is interpreted kinda depends on you personally and how it relates to your personal life and relationship. Every relationship is different so please don't think any ones question or answer indicative of everyone.

From your OP I suspect your SO may have taken some of the threads here and tried to use them to let you know how he may feel about certain things he has been unwilling to approach with you on his own. If thats the case just ask him exactly what he means and respond honestly with how you feel about it. Communication is the key.

If I have offended you or anyone here I do apologize as that has never been my intentions. I hope you and your SO can come to some agreement about what is really at issue between you both

[ReineD]

Most women don't seem to give a rat's ass about beauty or femininity, thet think it's hokey and they ridicule us for appreciating feminine beauty in any form whatsoever. Go ahead ladies, put on your dirty jeans, flannel shirt, baseball cap and work boots and go to the bar and watch the game while you eat lots pizza, drink lots of beer and pass lots of gas. While you're at it, go buy some chewing tobacco and spit on the floor, that way you'll have your "equality" and "dignity".

Good lord. :wall:

Ive heard of stereotyping, but this is ridiculous. OK. I get that you're bitter about your divorce, but this is no reason to paint women with such a broad negative brush. Dirty jeans, work boots, farting, and spitting on the floor? Please.

Your stereotype aside, I will comment on your claim that women no longer want to be feminine though. We do. We've just moved forward with the times and most of us don't subscribe to a brand of femininity that is 60 years old on a day-to-day basis, although I bet that if you saw us in the proper venues such as upscale restaurants, classical concerts, etc, you'd see a sea of dresses and skirts just as you'd finally see well-dressed men (the same men who wear the jeans and Tshirts in their own day-to-day lives as well). :)

Kendra ... in my book, you're off the hook. I don't recall you ever saying that you are prettier or sexier than your wife.

[L'eggs n' heels]

Good lord. :wall:

Ive heard of stereotyping, but this is ridiculous. OK. I get that you're bitter about your divorce, but this is no reason to paint women with such a broad negative brush. Dirty jeans, work boots, farting, and spitting on the floor? Please.

Your stereotype aside, I will comment on your claim that women no longer want to be feminine though. We do. We've just moved forward with the times and most of us don't subscribe to a brand of femininity that is 60 years old on a day-to-day basis, although I bet that if you saw us in the proper venues such as upscale restaurants, classical concerts, etc, you'd see a sea of dresses and skirts just as you'd finally see well-dressed men (the same men who wear the jeans and Tshirts in their own day-to-day lives as well). :)

Kendra ... in my book, you're off the hook. I don't recall you ever saying that you are prettier or sexier than your wife.

Please understand, what I say comes from a place of pain. I suppose you're right that I need to get out more, but it's hard. I really do like the femininity of times gone past better however, it just rings truer than what I see today. I don't get to too many "upscale" places you see because I'm basically poor and I don't care for the big city.

[BiancaEstrella]

I feel like I've found the crux of your statement, Momarie. I'll address this part courtesy of myself:


The one thing I really knew, was that I was the woman in our relationship and you LED ME TO BELIEVE you wanted to be the man. (Because of fear, lack of faith in my love for you or courage, it was easier for you to let me think that there was something wrong with me, than for you to tell me the truth).

But not only do you want to compete with me now as a woman and take that away from me....you won't be satisfied unless I "admit" you are a better/prettier/sexier/more feminine woman than me.
Was it your proof and purpose to come to this moment all along?

At my level of crossdressing, I simply seek acceptance from those I choose to share it with. I honestly don't care about the superlatives, or one-upping anybody. It's not a competition, it's a cooperation. I'm still very much capable of being the man, regardless which clothes/demeanor I have on. She can be the woman, and I can just make an effort to occasionally look like one. Smiles for everybody :) :) :) :)