What being a TS is NOT [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Melody Moore

06-28-2011, 04:13 AM

OK Melissa, you are probably going to scare a lot of people off, but I will play.

First 'transsexual' is a word that is used to describe a person who suffers from gender identity disorder & has a desire
to transition & live in a gender that is opposite to their biological birth sex. So it can't really be any of these things.

Being a TS is NOT about acting like a woman
No, because when you are a MtF transsexual, you have already identified that you are woman are you not?
You can't claim to be a transsexual if you haven't already figured out you have the wrong brain, personality
& gender identity trapped in a wrongly configured body.

Being a TS is NOT about passing as a woman
When you are a MtF transsexual you are really meant to be a woman, so if you have truly embraced
who you really are then there is no need to 'try to pass as a woman'. Passing is like pretending to be
something that you are not. I am accepted as a woman because I have embraced who I truly am &
always be my true self. If you actually 'be the woman' then that is exactly how people will accept you.

I know lots of trans girls who are not very feminine in their appearance, but they 'pass' because they
know who they are. They are very strong people who have complete faith & confidence in themselves.

Being a TS is NOT about dressing like a woman
Dressing up to be 'like a woman' reminds me of the drag queens who pretend to be pretty by being overly
flamboyant in their dress & their make-up while trying to be the centre of everyone's attention. Whereas
a transsexual on the other hand usually dresses to suit the occasion better & how they feel most comfortable.
If a person born male feels happier identifying a woman & feels more comfortable in presenting themselves in
female clothes then isn't this the most appropriate form of dress for that person? So anyway Melissa how should
a MtF transsexual person dress? It's getting freaking damn cold standing here with no clothes on.
:mooning::dom:

Being a TS is NOT about being pretty
No, being transsexual is about having a desire to be your true self when your gender identity doesn't match your
outer appearance. Real beauty is something that comes from with, whereas the superficial beauty & glamour that
is on the outside will fade in time with everyone no matter how good your make up is, who you are & how much
money you spend on cosmetic surgery. It doesn't matter how much time you spend with the make-up in front of
the mirror, because being a good person who is lively & interesting to talk to & hang out with makes you a lot more
attractive as person to want to really get to know & want to spend time with.

Being a TS is NOT about having surgeries
Not everyone who is transsexual can have gender reassignment surgery for reasons relating from finances to their
personal health, but just because they haven't had the surgeries it doesn't mean they are not who they present
themselves as. The road to transition is long & gender reassignment surgery is only a small part of the transitional
process as a transsexual. There are many stigmas, fears & other mental issues to overcome before you can even
really begin. You have to start to think of yourself more & be more selfish about your own needs in life while others
around you try & make you feel guilty & ashamed, but you cannot care about what other people think as a transsexual.

There is a lot that a person has to deal with when they are transsexual, more crap will come along the way with more
hurdles to always be expected & overcome. Everything is never so clear cut, simple & dry. SRS/GRS is not the magic
bullet that will make you a female, being female is that person that comes from within when you truly are a transsexual.
Being a transsexual is about having the desire to be the opposite gender to the birth sex to which you were born. Having
SRS/GRS is the final affirmation step that will confirm your true gender identity if it is possible for you & if you believe that
this is what it takes to fulfil all your needs to help you to feel happy & complete as a person, but it does not define you as
a woman!

Being a TG is not about being a TS.. :D
And being TS has very little in common with the rest of the TG spectrum.

So how did I do sis? :daydreaming:

Aprilrain

06-28-2011, 07:06 AM

being TS is not about being a freaking "man in a dress" and to the bitches who have called me that (or implied it) : P (no one here BTW)

Yes i have only been called this by another TS and the implication was from a GG who made me touch her boobs and called me a man! F U bitch!

arbon

06-28-2011, 09:39 AM

Being a TS is NOT about acting like a woman - true I think, I found I don't have to "act" anything. Though I on a general level want to improve my social skills.

Being a TS is NOT about passing as a woman - but sometimes it sure is important! Last night i stopped at connivence store and bunch rough looking, rowdy young men where there and all I could think was please don't you fraks clock me.

Being a TS is NOT about dressing like a woman - but I sure do hate when I have to dress as a man.

Being a TS is NOT about being pretty - but I sure do wish I was.

Being a TS is NOT about having surgeries - but I sure do wish I could afford them.

being TS is not about being a freaking "man in a dress" - What April said!

CaptLex

06-28-2011, 10:59 AM

Let's start a list of what being TS is NOT; I'd like to see what the sisterhood comes up with.

Okay girls, the floor is yours.

Sisterhood? Girls?

How about . . . being a TS is NOT necessarily equivalent to being MtF.

Thank you, Melody, for defining TS as "a person who . . . " and for the correction "MtF transsexual". I see most others are still excluding the guys around here - shame on you. :straightface:

kellycan27

06-28-2011, 01:30 PM

I've been thinking about this for awhile and I want to explore this topic further on my blog. I was spurred into action by Andy's "you know you're trans" blurbs.

Let's start a list of what being TS is NOT; I'd like to see what the sisterhood comes up with.

Being a TS is NOT about acting like a woman

Being a TS is NOT about passing as a woman

Being a TS is NOT about dressing like a woman

Being a TS is NOT about being pretty

Being a TS is NOT about having surgeries

Okay girls, the floor is yours.

You know.. I have been a member of this site for quite a while and these type threads often pop up... I have read tons of them...what it takes, what it doesn't take,pass,don't pass, what defines,what doesn't. I have seen hundreds of responses and one of the things that I have noticed while reading these responses is that about 99% of the respondents (avatars) are of people who.....are dressed like a woman, and made up like a woman, and some even pass for a woman. Going over Melissa's list I could probably agree that "technically" ........... she is correct. Joe the linebacker can be a woman while still acting, and looking like Joe the linebacker. I don't see any "Joe's" in the avatars so I have to ask myself. Do these things define a woman? NO. Do these things seem to fit in how a lot of transsexuals define (in whole or part) themselves as women? yes. is not how we see ourselves our own personal feelings of what defines us as a woman, and if not... why do it?
Personally. I have done each and everything on that list. Why? Because I like pretty things, I like being pretty, I like passing as the woman that I am. It may not be the holy grail of transsexuals, but it does in part fit my own personal opinion of what helps define me as a woman. And judging by the avatars i am thinking that a lot of others see it the same way. I may be off by a mile, but my gut says I am not.
So in answer to your question I would say that technically.. you are correct in saying that these thing do not define a woman, but... in practice. these things seem to be VERY important in how we and how others see us, and how we and others define a woman. I don't see a lot of people here..practicing what they preach. In the very least, I see it's okay for you to look,act and dress like Joe, but I am not doing it!
Kel

Kaitlyn Michele

06-28-2011, 01:49 PM

good point Capt..

I am guilty of usually assuming everyone here is Mtf...

By the way , it's interesting Melissa that you have a thread called trans progression, with pictures of your female appearance "growing" over time.. the assumed implication being that as your appearance improves, then you are more trans..

but then you say being TS is not about passing, not about being pretty...just a thought, not a criticism..

don't get me wrong, I spent alot of time, energy, and A REALLY REALLY ALOT of $$ to look like a genetic woman.. so I am guilty of this double standard as well...perhaps its as simple as we want to look our best, like many women...but over the last year, i get frumpier and frumpier, and my transness is no longer really that interesting to me..

perhaps being TS is NOT about being TS... hehe

Beth-Lock

06-28-2011, 01:49 PM

Let's start a list of what being TS is NOT....

Being a TS is NOT about acting like a woman

Being a TS is NOT about passing as a woman

Being a TS is NOT about dressing like a woman

Being a TS is NOT about being pretty

Being a TS is NOT about having surgeries

I could not disagree more! I think this whole thing is a sophistical play on what is a defining characteristic, and the whole concept of definition of a word.

Starling

06-28-2011, 02:46 PM

Sisterhood? Girls? How about . . . being a TS is NOT necessarily equivalent to being MtF...

That's absolutely true, CaptLex, but there isn't a girls' forum dedicated soley to MTF transsexuals, as there is for FTMs in the Transmasculine Forum. Many of our issues are quite different and specific, and not all MTFs are ready for Safe Haven.

I ask our beloved brothers to grant us forbearance when we seem to ignore you. It certainly doesn't mean we don't care. We are all in the same fleet, but perhaps in slightly different boats.

:) Lallie

melissaK

06-28-2011, 04:08 PM

CAPT LEX "Sisterhood? Girls? How about . . . being a TS is NOT necessarily equivalent to being MtF."

Ahoy to you good Captain! Clearly us girls have been in the rum again - forgive our bout of self centered myopia!

Jorja

06-28-2011, 04:22 PM

Sisterhood? Girls?

How about . . . being a TS is NOT necessarily equivalent to being MtF.

Thank you, Melody, for defining TS as "a person who . . . " and for the correction "MtF transsexual". I see most others are still excluding the guys around here - shame on you. :straightface:

Perhaps if our FTM brothers would post in the Transsexual Fourm once in a while we would not so readily forget them. 99.8% of the post in this section are from MTF's. Therefore we respond to MTF's.

Starling

06-28-2011, 04:30 PM

Jorja

06-28-2011, 05:59 PM

I would imagine our brothers do the lion's share of their posting in the Transmasculine Forum, Jorja, unless they want to compare notes with MTFs or are simply curious. I am certainly curious, about both FTM and MTF. I have a lot to learn, especially about myself.

:) Lallie

I realize this Lallie but evidently CaptLex doesn't yet. She still thinks we are excluding the guys. You cannot exclude someone that does not participate.

Kelsy

06-28-2011, 06:36 PM

Being TS is being a woman and having to deal with unwanted physical realities.

lynn_lynn

06-28-2011, 06:45 PM

@ Melody Moore..Nice post.. :)

AllieSF

06-28-2011, 06:57 PM

Hats off to the Captain who we all would like to see more posts from. We are, at least I am, missing your wise words. And Jorja, to reiterate, The Captain is a hot He.

dawnmarrie1961

06-28-2011, 07:00 PM

Being a TS is NOT about being something you are not. It is about being who you are.

Jorja

06-28-2011, 07:10 PM

I am sorry if I offended you CaptLex. I did not know you identify as he. However, the fact remains most of the postings in this part of the fourm are from MTF's. Therefore we respond about and to MTF's. Again, we cannot exclude thoes that do not participate. I would like it if more GM's and FTM's participated in this part of the fourm but they just don't.

Rianna Humble

06-28-2011, 07:32 PM

we cannot exclude those that do not participate.

I'm sorry Jorja, you are very wrong there

Okay girls, the floor is yours.

Whether or not it was done intentionally (adn I do not believe it was intentional) this phrase excludes our FtM brethren by opening the thread only to the MtF and GG population of this forum. According to the site rules, if someone requests responses only from one section of the readership, then those not included must stay out of the discussion.

Even though this was probably accidental, Melissa asked for contributions from those who identify as "girls" thus excluding the FtM transsexuals. They in their turn would quite rightly have refrained from participating.

I am glad that Captain Lex brought this to our attention. Perhaps we should reread the stickies more often. In particular the one entitled Section Announcement...Please Read! (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?89351-Section-Announcement...Please-Read!) which covers this very point

Badtranny

06-28-2011, 07:37 PM

Sorry Lex, if you knew me you would know that I have a soft spot for my trans bros so I definitely didn't exclude the FtM reference out of ignorance or malice. I honestly thought that this was the MtF section. So I plead stupidity.

.....and Kelly, my adorable muse, you completely misunderstood what I'm trying to say. You happen to be one of the girls that I'm talking about. Think deeper you little minx ;-)

I'm on the dang iPhone now so I will elaborate when I get home.

Jorja

06-28-2011, 08:06 PM

I'm sorry Jorja, you are very wrong there

Whether or not it was done intentionally (adn I do not believe it was intentional) this phrase excludes our FtM brethren by opening the thread only to the MtF and GG population of this forum. According to the site rules, if someone requests responses only from one section of the readership, then those not included must stay out of the discussion.

Even though this was probably accidental, Melissa asked for contributions from those who identify as "girls" thus excluding the FtM transsexuals. They in their turn would quite rightly have refrained from participating.

I am glad that Captain Lex brought this to our attention. Perhaps we should reread the stickies more often. In particular the one entitled Section Announcement...Please Read! (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?89351-Section-Announcement...Please-Read!) which covers this very point

Excuse me Rianna,
There are 3,232 threads in this, the Transsexual part of the fourm. Very few of them start with "girls". Meaning they are open for participation from anyone. In the biggest majority of those threads there is only two or three FTM, GM, or any other M that has ever responded in the 14 months that I have been a member here. That leads me to believe that that the FTM's and GM's do not wish to participate whether invited or not. Therefore, even if I posted a thread marked TS, GG's only, I would not feel I was excluding anyone.

kellycan27

06-28-2011, 08:28 PM

Take it to PM ladies.. you're walking on what may end up to be a good thread.

Myojine

06-28-2011, 11:08 PM

I'll just add 1 for now:

Being a TS is NOT about who you are attracted to

This +1 SOOO MUCH.
Im not gay all you ignorant trolls!

Badtranny

06-28-2011, 11:54 PM

Take it to PM ladies.. you're walking on what may end up to be a good thread.

Thank you doll, not every discussion is intended to include everyone. This one is for trans-women because that's my own experience and I wouldn't even imagine that I could speak to any of the issues that trans-men face.

Now back to the point.

Since I've started my little blog, I've had the pleasure (mostly) of corresponding with a few CD's who would ask me for advice about transitioning. Why ask me? Who in the heck knows, but I have my own domain name so I must know what I'm talking about right? ;-)

Anyhoo, I've come to the conclusion over the last year that CDs and TSs are very different people, coming from very different places. I've gotten to where I can get a pretty good sense of a TS vs CD just by the things they talk about. Take Kellycan for example. She and I have chatted many many times over the last couple of years and I've come to adore her like a real life friend. She was my first real TS acquaintance and I noticed something different about her but I couldn't really tell what it was. Aside from being a mouthy broad, I didn't really know why she stood out from my CD friends.

Well, time ticks by and I meet many new people both in person and online and after a while I start to notice a definite pattern. My list of NOTs (which were explained quite nicely by Melody) are simply the things that inform or motivate or otherwise preoccupy the thoughts of a cross dresser. None of those things are bad nor should they be avoided but are any of them the reason for transitioning or for NOT transitioning?

Some girls don't think they should because they don't want or can't afford the SRS. Well, like I told my therapist, I was called a sissy, and a pansy, and a girl when I was a kid and no one bothered to check my pants to see if they were right. My pickle didn't make me a man, so not having it isn't gonna make me a woman. My genitals don't define me now and they won't define me later. Should I not transition because I don't really care if I have an innie or an outtie?

Kel, you were ready to open a can on me because you thought I was being a hypocrite, but was I really? Let's talk about passing. I know that you and I agree that passing is absolutely worth the effort and you of course pass as if you were born that way, but what if you didn't? What if you were taller and bigger? What if your hands were huge and your voice was deep? Would you NOT transition? Do you spend your life crackin' beers with your buds and pretending to like fart jokes because passing is more difficult or do you live your life anyway in spite of not passing well? I think DawnMarie said it all when she said Being a TS is about being who you are.

Beth-Lock compared my questions to a Sophistic play on words, but I prefer to see the exercise as more Socratic, in the sense that the unexamined life is indeed not worth living, and above all one should know thyself.

Kaitlyn Michele

06-29-2011, 09:39 AM

ahhh the lovely scent of hubris in the successful early transitioner.....yum!!

Thanks for the lesson Socretia, but most of us already know that cd's and ts's were different for alot longer than a year..

I will say that buried in those softball questions is a very valid point... If you have been crossdressing for a long time, and you are going through suffering in your head about "what am I" , I IMPLORE YOU!!! go find a couple transsexual women, and ask them to dinner, and just sit there for 2 hours and talk....just 2 hours...and you will know..if you are ts, it will hit you like a ton of bricks...

you will see that all the stubble may not be gone on her face, you will see that her hairline isn't quite right, you may notice that her hands are way to big, or that her shoulders barely cram into the top, you may wonder why she doesnt bother to wear makeup, or notice that she has no real breasts at all, and frankly you may find that she is flat out ugly, she will likely tell you tales of woe, her divorce, she lost her job, she has been "marginalized..", she was a financial advisor-now she's a clerk at the market,

but if you are transsexual, you will see through most of that like no one else does, and you will still feel like you want to be just like her, a woman..

don't waste your time playing word games..do something..

Longing2be-Trisha

06-29-2011, 10:01 AM

Being tg for me is not about passing as a woman, but it would not be a bad thing. Being tg is not about sex with a man or a woman. Being tg for me is getting to the point of who I know I am inside to be happy with my life on the outside. Yes I would love to be sexy and beautiful like I dreamed about since I was five, but I am realistic I am an old mack truck right now.

Hugs

Badtranny

06-29-2011, 10:48 AM

ahhh the lovely scent of hubris in the successful early transitioner.....yum!!

Thanks for the lesson Socretia, but most of us already know that cd's and ts's were different for alot longer than a year..

Meow!

Well Miss Thing, I'll have you know that my hubris has nothing to do with my lifestyle. I was born that way baby ;-)
Socretia, I love that! I hope you realize that we would probably be great friends if we lived closer. I love a saucy broad who's not afraid to mix it up.

After lambasting me for my intellectual masturbation, you then go on to post a wonderful narrative that makes my point beautifully. We do agree on this issue and you know it, but you had to bust my balls (yes I still have them) for what amounts to editorial differences. I don't mind by the way, you are always welcome to call me on my BS.

In regard to the "word play", I'm afraid there's nothing I can do about that. I'm a nut that way and there are few things more beautiful to me than the skillful turn of phrase.

Plus I'm a tiny bit full of myself ;-)

Kaitlyn Michele

06-29-2011, 12:28 PM

meow back!!

i cant help myself... and apparently neither can you!!
it's all good...

Aprilrain

06-29-2011, 01:54 PM

cute kitty's........; D

For those who are lurking and thinking about sex as much as I do don't worry just because you like sex and want sex with whoever as a woman doesn't mean your NOT TS as the vast majority of the gender afflicted would have you believe. Humans are by nature sexual creatures and sex drive or lack there of no more defines a TSes gender identity than it does a cisgendered individuals gender identity. There is nothing wrong with sex being part of ones motivation for transitioning of course if it is your only motivation you may be disappointed not only with your sex life but the rest of your life as well.

Nigella

06-29-2011, 02:05 PM

I realize this Lallie but evidently CaptLex doesn't yet. She still thinks we are excluding the guys. You cannot exclude someone that does not participate.

And when such a drastic "mistake" is made, is it a small wonder that anyone who is not "part of this group" does not participate??? Despite the "image" that is presented, more often than not you can smell the testosterone, and not that from the F2Ms.

Frances

06-29-2011, 02:17 PM

This +1 SOOO MUCH.
Im not gay all you ignorant trolls!

But you have mentioned many times being attracted to women. How is that not gay? Rhianna said that orientation and sexual identity were not correlated, but a trans person can certainly be gay, as in a trans woman who loves a another woman (trans or cis) is in a homosexual relationship.

Badtranny

06-29-2011, 02:31 PM

And when such a drastic "mistake" is made, is it a small wonder that anyone who is not "part of this group" does not participate??? Despite the "image" that is presented, more often than not you can smell the testosterone, and not that from the F2Ms.

Okay Nigella,

With all due respect, what is so wrong with a thread that is for MtF TS's only? Your average CD'r wouldn't have a lot of input in this particular discussion and since there is an open section for transmen only, I honestly thought this was the trans women section. I've already apologized for my obvious stupidity so I don't understand the persistent need to keep this issue alive.

My experience is that of an early trans woman. That's what I write about. I will not apologize for not commenting on the trans man's experience. I love them, I respect them and I will always support them, but I really don't have much of a perspective on them except for the trans guys I know, are total dudes and the only thing we have in common is our trans status. I've even had a relationship with an FtM CD and I like men!

As a gay man or straight woman however you look at it, with no SO, I'm excluded from a lot of the conversations around here. I have nothing to say when a CD talks about coming out to her wife or whatever. I've never experienced something like that, it sounds awful, but what the heck do I know about it? We can't all be included in every conversation. I know it irritates me when a straight CD'r chimes in on a gay discussion with "Nope just women for me!".

That's what this is by the way, a conversation. Not a debate or a pissing contest. It's just a way to flesh out the issues that we all (MtF TS) deal with. I personally love to see the different points of view that come out in discussions like this.

Also my testosterone levels are quite normal for a female according to my last blood test so that testosterone you're smelling must be something else.

BS maybe, but testosterone? Hell no. ;-)

But you have mentioned many times being attracted to women. How is that not gay? Rhianna said that orientation and sexual identity were not correlated, but a trans person can certainly be gay, as in a trans woman who loves a another woman (trans or cis) is in a homosexual relationship.

Oh no you di'ent!

You should be wearing safety gloves if you're gonna be bending minds like that.

Nigella

06-29-2011, 03:12 PM

Okay Nigella,

With all due respect, what is so wrong with a thread that is for MtF TS's only?

There is nothing wrong with any thread that is specifically for a particular group of members to post in. They are generally posted in the loved ones section, however, I have seen one or two posted in the M2F. If, however, you are talking about a forum, well there is the Safe Haven which is a member only forum for M2F TSs.

Your average CD'r wouldn't have a lot of input in this particular discussion and since there is an open section for transmen only, I honestly thought this was the trans women section. I've already apologized for my obvious stupidity so I don't understand the persistent need to keep this issue alive.

This is an open forum, which means all members can have an input to a discussion. By the nature of discussion, just because a particular group of members may not have an opinion on the OP, as the discussion evolves they may have a valid point to make to subsequent posts. As for the persistent need to "keep this issue alive", try reading my post again, it was not even aimed at you.

Starling

06-29-2011, 04:23 PM

...if you are transsexual, you will see through most of that like no one else does, and you will still feel like you want to be just like her, a woman...

Amen. With every fiber of my being.

:) Lallie

Badtranny

06-29-2011, 05:49 PM

try reading my post again, it was not even aimed at you.

Oh, ...well I'm sensitive!

...extremely cute but apparently sensitive as well :-)

Melody Moore

06-29-2011, 06:48 PM

Anyhoo, I've come to the conclusion over the last year that CDs and TSs are very different people, coming from very different places. ...
I've gotten to where I can get a pretty good sense of a TS vs CD just by the things they talk about.
Ditto Mel, and it is amazing to see how much animosity, bigotry & transphobia actually exists within the transgender
community right throughout the gender spectrum. The transsexual community is by far one of the worst to deal with
because they also have the greatest demands & needs for support, along with the fact that every other TG person is
also fighting for acceptance & to find their place in society. So this is why others will often clash with the transsexuals.

The best meeting our group ever had was when a FTM was present and we had to help him walk like a man, talk like a man and sit like a man. He had great pointers for us too.

Being TS is not excluding people because of their gender identity.

This is ironic because brings me to a major issue that I am now working to try & resolve in my local support group.
First of all our support group also identifies itself as a 'Transgender' Support Group, but there are male to female
transsexuals who believe that my group should be exclusive & only support those who are serious about transition.

We have one FtM member in our local TG group who is the boyfriend of one of the other trans-girls that
so happens to be one of the people also saying our TG support group should only support those in transition.

Being a TS member of what is essentially a 'cross-dressers' forum has given me a lot of insight into
the minds & lives of other gender identity types, but I realise how different they are to transsexuals
& they should not always be excluded from a 'transgender community'. However having said that it
has to be understood that transsexuals also need their space to discuss & deal with issues that affect
them as well, so there is a need to have 'private' forums or support group meetings to serve their needs.

I can understand & appreciate all their concerns when it comes to our group being infiltrated by tranny-chasers or
cross-dressers who engage in transvestic fetishism (http://allpsych.com/disorders/paraphilias/index.html) or other paraphilias (http://allpsych.com/disorders/paraphilias/index.html). But my aim is to open up certain aspects
of our group to the wider Transgender community so other gender identity types are not completely shut out & are
given a way to socialise & connect with others who are of similar gender identity types. But I can also see a number
of ways our community can benefit from this by not being so exclusive to just the transsexual community.

What has motivated me into action is the fact that I live in a regional centre, a city that has the largest LGBT population
outside of a major capital city. There is believed to be about 50 known transsexuals living here, but about 30 of them are
on the books with our local gender clinic. I am sure there are many others out their in the community that haven't found
themselves yet & might even currently identify as cross-dressers, but need more support. So I am sure that the numbers
of transsexual & transgender people in the local community is a lot higher than we are currently aware of. We have over
a dozen well known drag queens living here as well. Currently our numbers can vary from 6 to 12 people at our monthly
meetings & I think for the number of transsexuals & other transgender people living in Cairns these numbers are very poor.

After speaking with a few girls in the group & getting some feedback, others feel they are not getting anything beneficial
from our group, so I am working to change that with vocal feminisation training, female deportment, mannerisms & body
language training and help with fashion & beauty. These are all things to help male to female transsexuals settle quicker
& better into the community & to give them more self-confidence. If I can get the numbers up & get more female to male
transsexuals involved then we can look at also expanding the support services to help them as well. The best part is I have
the full endorsement of my local gender clinic for my current proposal because they know there is a need for these services.
But I cannot make any of this work with no funding, so those in the group have to stop being so exclusive & stop shutting
other people out if they would like to get better support from our group.

What I am planning on doing is opening up our support group more on the social front because I think others can really
benefit from this type of interaction. Transsexual people can also learn a lot about the other gender identity types. I am
on my local LGBT committee that helps organise other fund-raising events & I already know I have a lot of support coming
from a lot of other people including the manager of the my local state funded LGBT organisation. Part of my proposal is a
complete restructure of our support group & to also build a proper alliance with this LGBT organisation so we can help them
more by focus on helping anyone who they refer to us as their transgender support arm of their main LGBT support network.

I am in the process of organising a couple of major fund-raising events to help our transgender support group generate
some funding. These will be large well publicised events that open to all members of the public & transgender community
to include cross-dressers, drag queens & drag kings, gender queers & androgynies that will allow them to meet & connect.
So to think that their money is no good & we shouldn't include these people in our community would be extremely foolish.

Katesback

06-29-2011, 07:36 PM

Melody Moore

06-29-2011, 07:48 PM

I have to say one thing. If someone has no desire to have SRS then they ARE NOT TS. If they dont have the means to have SRS then I can take that but if someone wants to be a girl with a penis they sure as hell are not TS!
We all know how you feel Kate, & the point you just virtually made I made in my very first post. But it isn't just about
having a desire to have SRS, it is about having the desire to transition & live as a member of the opposite gender &
sex to which you were born. So when are you going to get it in your head Kate that not all transsexuals can have SRS
for whatever reason, finance, health or otherwise which might mean they end up living just like any other girl, but they
have a penis which is nothing more than an over-sized clitoris anyway. But my main point is that it does NOT make them
any less a transsexual. Your gender identity is not defined by what is between your legs & neither is being a transsexual
like you seem to always want to believe. I agree with you on many things Kate, but this is where we differ in our opinions.

First 'transsexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism)' is a word that is used to describe a person who suffers from gender identity disorder & has a desire
to transition & live in a gender that is opposite to their biological birth sex. So it can't really be any of these things.

Badtranny

06-29-2011, 08:16 PM

I have to say one thing. If someone has no desire to have SRS then they ARE NOT TS. If they dont have the means to have SRS then I can take that but if someone wants to be a girl with a penis they sure as hell are not TS!

I'll take the bait.

I've said earlier that I self identify as queer before TS, but my doctor and my therapist have both told me that TS is the proper term because of my desire to live outwardly as a woman. I use the TS term here because among the people that populate this board, I have the most in common with the TS community. I fully recognize that I'm technically a gender queer because I have and plan to keep my penis. The problem is I don't have a gender queer lifestyle or look. I should assimilate fairly well as just a regular girl so to the world I will appear as a TS woman if I don't pass well enough to be mistaken for natural born.

The penis stays and I have my reasons that I may or may not expound on in this forum. Okay I will eventually because I'm chatty and a tiny bit full of myself.

So you can't abide the pickle? I can't say I'm concerned about your disapproval. Personally I don't really understand how trans women can not be attracted to men. Men are so yummy, but just because I don't get something, doesn't mean it's not valid or worthwhile. It just means it ain't my thing.

The world is full of colorful characters and nobody on this particular planet gets to decide whose color is the right one.

Katesback

06-29-2011, 09:17 PM

Re-read my post. I addressed this. Otherwise put without the desire to have a matching body the person in NOT transsexual. Anything BUT transsexual will do.

To support my statment I refer you to the latest version of the DSM.

We all know how you feel Kate, & the point you just virtually made I made in my very first post. But it isn't just about
having a desire to have SRS, it is about having the desire to transition & live as a member of the opposite gender &
sex to which you were born. So when are you going to get it in your head Kate that not all transsexuals can have SRS
for whatever reason, finance, health or otherwise which might mean they end up living just like any other girl, but they
have a penis which is nothing more than an over-sized clitoris anyway. But my main point is that it does NOT make them
any less a transsexual. Your gender identity is not defined by what is between your legs & neither is being a transsexual
like you seem to always want to believe. I agree with you on many things Kate, but this is where we differ in our opinions.

Melody Moore

06-29-2011, 09:28 PM

Re-read my post. I addressed this. Otherwise put without the desire to have a matching body the person in NOT transsexual. Anything BUT transsexual will do.
Yes, I read your post very well Kate & I could clearly see your attempt to gloss this side of things over
here, but sorry the contradictions here in your very own statements sticks out like dog's testicles to me.

I have to say one thing. If someone has no desire to have SRS then they ARE NOT TS. If they dont have the means to have SRS then I can take that but if someone wants to be a girl with a penis they sure as hell are not TS!

Once again kate, when are you going to get it in your head that being a transsexual not
about what is between your legs or wanting SRS like you seem to always want to believe.
Some transsexuals never have SRS because of personal fears & concerns but does that
make them any less a transsexual? I don't think so & you only think your colour is the only
colour in a world that is full of very colourful characters when you really are in a minority.

I posted the proper definition about what really defines a transsexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism), but still
you choose to ignore it, that is a very bigoted outlook that you have there Kate.

Bree-asaurus

06-29-2011, 09:57 PM

Ok, let's examine that for a second.
Personal fears, concerns, etc.... are all "reasons," but do they have a "want" to?
Kate says they have to want to. ("desire")
SO, if the person has a want to, but isn't because of reasons, then they still may be TS. They just haven't overcome their "reasons."
Simple on both sides.

I wish I could "like" posts :P

I've been thinking about saying this, but didn't feel like jumping into the middle of yet another argument in these forums at the moment.

Katesback

06-29-2011, 10:26 PM

I dont believe I have implied that gender identity has anything to do with what is between your legs.

As I said for someone to be TS they must have a desire to have a body that matches their mind. That does not mean they will ever get SRS. Only a very small few people ever get SRS in the grand sceme of things.

Those that have a gender idtenty that is female but want to have a penis is something else but not TS.

Badtranny

06-29-2011, 10:55 PM

Wow, it looks like I'm polarizing the populace. Any other Post Ops want to pile on? Please do because those two aren't exactly making compelling arguments.

Kelly? Kaitlyn?

Anyone who is NOT a sterling example of rigid intolerance?

Kaitlyn Michele

06-29-2011, 11:00 PM

No disapproval.
it seems logical that your lifestyle is most similar to a TS lifestyle...i think your analysis makes good sense..there is one big difference though... the endgame is not to assimilate and blend (although we tend to say that sometimes), the endgame is to "be"..
of course , as Bill Clinton would say, it depends on the definition of the word be

People that have srs either know how transcendent it is, how it changes everything, and how it opens up everything else in your mind (for good and bad), or they are conspiring together to trick crossdressers and gender queer folk into making a horrible mistake..

your choice to live a transsexual woman's lifestyle may be right for you, and it's that you living the lifestyle of an early TS...

but transsexuals close the deal or try and try and try...what we always find is that after the heady early days, which are especially heady if we can afford ffs, if we pass or are naturally pretty like you, the novelty wears off..the excitement is gone, it's just day to day ...to day...to day...and many ts do not get the blessing of femme features or size, and yet they go on...if you are a gender queer soul, you will find that time and energy you spend on playing your female only role will wear on you....that's just what is going to happen...and then you will find out what people are trying to tell you.. you'll either feel the need to take this further, or not...and if not, you may find yourself in the pickle..

Badtranny

06-29-2011, 11:09 PM

Beautifully said Kaitlyn.

I disagree, but I find your post to be very thought provoking and I will concede that I may feel completely different about this next year.

I am only halfway through my HRT program after all. ;-)

I do take issue with at least one specific point, but your argument is so well done, that I think I'll just leave it at that.

Take note folks, this is how you shut me up.

docrobbysherry

06-29-2011, 11:25 PM

Well, I don't know whether to feel disappointed or relieved! I've never THOT of myself as being TS.

However, using BadT's math, I'm 2/5ths a TS!

Bree-asaurus

06-29-2011, 11:38 PM

According to the DSM IV (cited by Wikipedia so I don't know if it's 100% correct), the four criteria to diagnose gender disphoria:

1) Long-standing and strong identification with another gender

2) Long-standing disquiet about the sex assigned or a sense of incongruity in the gender-assigned role of that sex

3) The diagnosis is not made if the individual also has physical intersex characteristics.

4) Significant clinical discomfort or impairment at work, social situations, or other important life areas.

And the three criteria to diagnose a transexual:

1) The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment

2) The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years

3) The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality

--- What's that? USUALLY accompanied by the wish to make his or her body AS CONGRUENT AS POSSIBLE with the preferred sex through surgery ---

Of course, definitions are changing all the time. But from what I gather, and because I have an open mind, the penis is not the be-all end-all when it comes to being transexual. You can be fine with your penis and still feel like you fit the female gender role rather than the male. Or maybe you can be indifferent about your penis, or maybe you want a vagina, but after weighing the pros and cons in your specific situation, sticking with the penis is better for you.

Who is anyone here to judge what they don't understand? We always complain about how so many others don't understand being transgender or transexual, but here we are saying that being transexual is black and white and if you don't follow another transexual's path, you're not transexual. This ignorance is ridiculous and while we of all people should know better, there are idiots everywhere. Even among us here in what we consider a safe zone.

Personally, I've gone back and fourth as to whether I'd want SRS. Sometimes I lean towards keeping my penis because my boyfriend and I use it (because he doesn't have one), and because it's friggin expensive as hell to get rid of. However, I keep going back to wishing it wasn't there, despite what fun and intimacy we do get from it.

No one here has the right to tell anyone else they are or are not a transexual... that's between them and their therapist. Why katesback keeps sticking around here is beyond me, because it seems every time she posts, it's just something blatantly obvious and negative, or something ignorant, telling people if they don't believe what she believes, they're wrong.

Aprilrain

06-29-2011, 11:38 PM

I have to say one thing. If someone has no desire to have SRS then they ARE NOT TS. If they dont have the means to have SRS then I can take that but if someone wants to be a girl with a penis they sure as hell are not TS!

What I'm trying to figure out is what is up with the dudes with pussies! I unfortunately went to my local support group meeting on monday and was like "why am I in a room full of dudes" two of whom had had SRS and at least two more of whom have surgery dates set. At least one 10 year post op "girl" was wearing all male clothing tee shirt, jeans, white socks and running shoes. other than "her" boobs and long hair you would never mistake "her" for female. "she" complained about being second classed by the men at work because they don't invite "her" out for beers afterward then asked if anyone else thought girl talk was boring, stupid, and hard to follow! I thought who the hell wants to go out for beers with a bunch of factory dudes and talk football! BARF! and what is so stupid boring and hard to follow about kids, relationships, and sex, its really not that esoteric. I mean really how can talking about SEX be boring! I've never talked fashion or make up with my GG friends other than to say "cute shoes" or "wow you look hot tonight"
Maybe one is not a transsexual if one doesn't desire SRS but what the hell are you if that is ALL you want? of course the conversation at the meeting got around to how hard life can be for transsexuals and I couldn't help but think "yeah life IS hard for a dude in a dress" and like has been said a million times before on this forum it's not about what's between your legs.
I also have to agree with Melissa the number of lesbian transwoman really baffles me! but hey each to her own. I have to disagree with Melissa on the keeping the OME though, the best part of having sex for me requires that I have a pussy. Its just something i know about myself

Bree-asaurus

06-29-2011, 11:47 PM

Another thing... there's a reason that SRS is one of the last things on the path of transition... because there are far more important things that will determine your happiness as you begin to live in the role of your true gender.

Melody Moore

06-30-2011, 12:16 AM

SO, if the person has a want to, but isn't because of reasons, then they still may be TS. They just haven't overcome their "reasons."

Jeez, is transsexualism a concept that is really so hard for people to grasp a hold of?

Being a 'transsexual' does not require any reasons for not wanting, or any desire to have SRS.

While this is not the case for me personally, I do understand very well how some transsexuals
are very happy & content living with their boy or girl bits & don't feel that it defines who they
are & it does not mean they are not transsexual. For a lot of people the genitalia is only a very
small but important part of who they are.

Transsexualism is NOT about some type of a compulsory desire to have SRS before you can be
diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder. I know MtF transsexuals who have been diagnosed with
GID & are on hormone therapy, but they have never expressed to any doctor or psychologist any
desire to have SRS, they have only expressed a very strong desire to live as females opposite to
their birth sex as males. Transsexualism is about the desire to live in the opposite gender to their
biological birth sex is has nothing to do with havinga desire to have SRS.

The bottom-line is you do NOT have to have a desire to have SRS to be transsexual!

So have I made myself clear enough now? is there anything else we want to argument about? :heehee:

Aprilrain

06-30-2011, 12:35 AM

Badtranny

06-30-2011, 12:35 AM

I would love to watch someone walk up to Buck Angel and tell him he's not a man.

I'm curious, what pickle?

The pickle in my pants silly

Katesback

06-30-2011, 12:39 AM

Ya noticed some of those eaa? Yea well there are a number of those men that have had SRS and for whatever reason went back to being a boy. Or they did not take the effort to really put thier presentation toghether. Or they hit a mental roadblock and remained in trannyland and never became a woman.

Yep I have met those people. Very sad. Some of them ya want to ask "what happened to you".

Your remark about Ts girls being lesbian. Thats another interesting concept. I think part of it is that dating men for most means a VERY high rejection probability while dating women is percieved as easier. Another reason I believe is that many just did not go to the effort to mentally prepare themselves to date men but since they have dated women all alone it is seen as easier. There are most assuridly other reasons but those are the big ones as far as I can tell.

What I'm trying to figure out is what is up with the dudes with pussies! I unfortunately went to my local support group meeting on monday and was like "why am I in a room full of dudes" two of whom had had SRS and at least two more of whom have surgery dates set. At least one 10 year post op "girl" was wearing all male clothing tee shirt, jeans, white socks and running shoes. other than "her" boobs and long hair you would never mistake "her" for female. "she" complained about being second classed by the men at work because they don't invite "her" out for beers afterward then asked if anyone else thought girl talk was boring, stupid, and hard to follow! I thought who the hell wants to go out for beers with a bunch of factory dudes and talk football! BARF! and what is so stupid boring and hard to follow about kids, relationships, and sex, its really not that esoteric. I mean really how can talking about SEX be boring! I've never talked fashion or make up with my GG friends other than to say "cute shoes" or "wow you look hot tonight"
Maybe one is not a transsexual if one doesn't desire SRS but what the hell are you if that is ALL you want? of course the conversation at the meeting got around to how hard life can be for transsexuals and I couldn't help but think "yeah life IS hard for a dude in a dress" and like has been said a million times before on this forum it's not about what's between your legs.
I also have to agree with Melissa the number of lesbian transwoman really baffles me! but hey each to her own. I have to disagree with Melissa on the keeping the OME though, the best part of having sex for me requires that I have a pussy. Its just something i know about myself

Rianna Humble

06-30-2011, 01:22 AM

I also have to agree with Melissa the number of lesbian transwomen really baffles me! but hey each to her own.

Maybe I'm naive, but what is so baffling about the fact that some women are lesbians? In my opinion, the "trans" prefix is just a diversion.

As I said earlier
Being a TS is NOT about who you are attracted to

Melody Moore

06-30-2011, 01:31 AM

Spot on Rianna, there are many trans-women who identify as lesbian, I am one of them & being a pre-op
MtF transsexual really makes no difference. I have been invited to join my local lesbian support group, so
these women obviously see me & accept me as being a female who is attracted to other women do they not?

By the way & for the record I am not diagnosed as a Male to Female Transsexual, I have a unique diagnosis,
probably not shared by many others around here being Intersex: assigned male transsexual female. So what
does that make me? TS or not TS? :p

Kelsy

06-30-2011, 04:29 AM

I think Kate is right on this. There are alot of transgenderists that live and function as women in society but have no desire to change their physical
self permanently. I believe that a strong body dysphoria goes hand in hand with the general gender dysphoeia that characterizes, defines and separates the Transsexual
from other Transgendered individuals.

Melody Moore

06-30-2011, 05:03 AM

There are alot of transgenderists that live and function as women in society but have no desire to change their physical
self permanently.
Transgenderist? Ok that is a new label, kinda like a new transsexual girl in my local
support group who was telling me about when she starts her transgendering LOL :heehee:

Anyway, as far as I know a transgenderist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#People_who_live_cross-gender) is a person who lives cross-gender without SRS,
but to live cross-gender then isn't that the same as cross-dressing? Living as a boy through
the day to go to work & as a female at night when they come home? But what about those
transsexuals who don't live cross-gender & live full-time? Are they really transgenderist or are
they really transsexual when you read into the proper definitions?

Anyway, so Kate re-write the manual for what actually defines a transsexual did she?
Because what she is claiming is that a transsexual must have a desire to have SRS, but
if you read the proper definition of transsexualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism#Diagnosis), there is no requirement to have SRS
in order to be diagnosed & identified as a transsexual. Being transsexual is about having
the desire to live as the opposite gender to your biological birth sex. Go read it for yourself
if you don't believe me - See: transsexualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism#Diagnosis).

By the way, TG Labels Suck!

Rianna Humble

06-30-2011, 06:57 AM

Transgenderist? Ok that is a new label,

By that definition, any term coined in the last 40 years is a new label. Transgenderist was first coined by Virginia Price in the 1970s to denote a person who lived in their chosen Gender role full time without medication or surgery. Her argument was that if you had any kind of surgery or medication, you would be a pre-op transsexual.

Badtranny

06-30-2011, 09:25 AM

Maybe I'm naive, but what is so baffling about the fact that some women are lesbians? In my opinion, the "trans" prefix is just a diversion.

As I said earlier

Hi Ri,

I'm not baffled by the existence of lesbians or trans lesbians, I was just using that as an example of something I personally don't get. I'm not attacted to women so obviously I can't relate. I think I was answering Karen who pointed out that she doesn't understand the idea of keeping the pickle. April and I were just illustrating that we all have different needs, and however we happen to be bent doesn't make us any better or any worse than anybody else.

I certainly don't begrudge anyone their sexual preference. Taste the rainbow baby.

It is a touch bizarre though that after all I've been through with this gender stuff, I end up learning the same thing on this board that I learned when I was 5 years old.
Penis = Man
Vagina = Woman

I fight authority
and authority always wins

Kaitlyn Michele

06-30-2011, 09:42 AM

people are too caught up too much in the medical definitions...and melody i agree labels suck anyway, so lets just drop the wikepedia/dsm links..!! LOL...
the medical definitions are being built up over time.. they are different in different countries.. years ago they caused more harm then good and they've been changed multiple times...and they will change again..

Melody i think you missing the concept of desiring to keep your penis and liking your penis as compared to the laundry list of issues that cause TS women to miss out on srs...and i don't think it's a stretch for some to become resigned to keeping it..

To the billions of cisgendered women out there, having a vagina is a part of being a woman...none of them..NONE..WANT a penis.... i don't really care what some doctors cooked up for me and you... doctors are necessary and they mostly want to help...but a woman does not want a penis... and a mtf transsexual woman does not want a penis...it has NOTHING to do with reasons...we are talking about people that DESIRE to keep their penis....even if that person lives as female, that is different than transsexual

and bree no one is really judging...(at least i'm not)... i think your points are well taken but there are many people here that have done the surgery...and they have experienced life after the surgery, and they know what it's like..
and they are saying that they cannot imagine that a person that isnt interested in srs is the same as them...

you are right that it may not matter......
certainly there are lots of similarities and every one of us is allowed to live their life in happiness and acceptance...

it only gets tricky when people start talking issues...to transgendered people it's an identity crisis, so we tend to protect and cherish our understanding of our own identities..
unlike cisgendered people, we have to EARN our own identities!!!! it's an accomplishment for us...(so unfair, but that's besides the point)
and when we come to these forums to discuss life changing decisions, it's important to understand where a person is coming from.. it's not judging..it's important to help us all communicate and understand each other...

Kaitlyn Michele

06-30-2011, 10:08 AM

kitty i guess you are right, i haven't asked them all...i'm wondering how you got to ask them!!! in any case, wanting to know what's its like is different than having one..

Bree-asaurus

06-30-2011, 10:35 AM

That's a broad brush stroke and not true. Aside from this site, I chat and hang out with cisgendered women exclusively, and when the subject has come up, each and every one of them has expressed a desire to have a penis. Not necessarily forever, they just want to know what it's like.

It's funny that you mention that... one of my ex-girlfriends said she wished she had one and knew what it would be like to use it. Again, not permanently :P

Kaitlyn Michele

06-30-2011, 10:40 AM

Oddly enough, they discuss it from time to time amongst themselves. I've never asked, I've only been told and questioned.

well i guess someday when my circle of gg friends starts discussing what it's like th have a penis, i'll be able to tell them

Melody Moore

06-30-2011, 11:15 AM

Melody i think you missing the concept of desiring to keep your penis and liking your penis as compared to the laundry list of issues that cause TS women to miss out on srs...and i don't think it's a stretch for some to become resigned to keeping it..
Kaitlyn, I came from the same old beliefs as you & a lot of other people did with believing what defines a transsexual,
however after more study I have come to the conclusion that my own initial beliefs were very wrong, just like many
of the other misconceptions about what defines our gender that you see posted here. As for cis-women having a
vagina & not having a penis... Well how should a person identify if they are born intersex with ambiguous genitalia,
but they feel they are female in every other sense but they have a over-sized clitoris which looks just like a penis?

Since the age of 15 I have known I am a 'female' but I then repressed it because I had 'boy bits' & no matter what
I did to try & prove to myself I was a male, those feelings about my true gender identity being female & that I also
felt was wrong constantly kept creeping back in. So what defines my gender identity? What is between my legs or
could it be something else? could it be my feeling of self-identity? The fact I have some natural female attributes
including breasts? My chromosomes perhaps? I would have a vagina & a very big clit if my vagina wasn't removed.

So what defines me now? So what does it mean to have the diagnosis of "Intersex: Assigned Male/Transsexual Female"?
From what I understand & have been told, this means I am a person who was born with physical characteristics of both
sexes has been surgically reassigned as a male, but now transitioning because of my desire to live forever as a female.

Now you know why me, my doctor & my pyschologist all really hate labels... If I am this confused imagine how they feel? :heehee:

well i guess someday when my circle of gg friends starts discussing what it's like th have a penis, i'll be able to tell them

Don't worry even being pre-op it's already started for me, some of my GG friends
are already asking me all sorts of questions like what is it like having a penis? My
reply is usually... Well how would you feel of you had a 6" clit when it was erect? :heehee:

Aprilrain

06-30-2011, 06:22 PM

Maybe I'm naive, but what is so baffling about the fact that some women are lesbians? In my opinion, the "trans" prefix is just a diversion.

As I said earlier

there is nothing baffling about lesbians or that some transwoman would be lesbians, it is the number of them that astounds me. in my support group I am a rarity there are only i think 3 of us who like guys, the rest claim to like woman. Interestingly enough One girl who is young and very pretty dated a GG who hangs out with us for a while the GG and I were talking one night and she told me that Lily (the TS) likes guys she just doesn't like penis. ?????? What the hell else are they good for! carrying heavy stuff?

Starling

06-30-2011, 06:33 PM

...Sometimes I lean towards keeping my penis because my boyfriend and I use it (because he doesn't have one), and because it's friggin expensive as hell to get rid of. However, I keep going back to wishing it wasn't there, despite what fun and intimacy we do get from it...

That's a remarkably poignant thought, Bree. What a wonderful gift it would be if you could give your lover your penis. It's almost an O'Henry story.

If you haven't already read it, look up The Gift of the Magi.

:) Lallie

Hope

07-01-2011, 03:15 PM

So I have been watching this thread develop for a few days... and I must admit to being somewhat baffled by it. And it isn't like this thread is particularly new - a thread like this pops up every few weeks. I have been equally baffled by those that have come before it.

Here is my confusion:

What is this really about?

Because it looks like it is little more than wall maintenance. It looks like a group of girls sitting around deciding what characteristics one must possess to be allowed to join their little club - and which characteristics one must not have if one wishes to remain a member of the club. Sure - everyone is very careful to declare their distaste for labels - but that doesn't seem to preclude folks from voicing their opinions about who is in and who is out. Are we really policing the group like this? Is this really what we are doing?

'cause if it is - I have another one: Being TS isn't about telling other people how to be TS. It isn't about comparing yourself to others or telling your sisters that they are not serious enough, or pretty enough, or don't feel the right way about being TS to call themselves TS. There are enough people in the world who will do this work for us, and they are much more savage about it. We really don't need more of it from within. But then - maybe not all of us are on the inside?

Kelsy

07-01-2011, 06:15 PM

I dunno Hope I didn't take the tread that way. Certainly everyone is not Transsexual, some are and many others are Transgendered but I agree if the
underlying scope of the thread is to divide the community or even to reinforce a pecking order in the TS community based on whose in
and who is not then the thread is not helpful. There is not one poster here that possesses all of the answers!

kellycan27

07-01-2011, 06:52 PM

Seems to me that the gist of the OP is that you really don't need any female attributes to be a woman other than what you have in head and heart.

Katesback

07-01-2011, 08:55 PM

Ya know that is actually a funny way to put it. Kind of reminds me of the comedy thing where someone walks around thinking they are a kitten and tells everyone they are but nobody believe them. More power to emm eaa?

As far as HOPE goes. She seems to read words that are not there. I dont think anyone implied that one group of people is better than another. Saying someone is gay instead of straight does not imply that one is better. As I said the person that wants to live life as a woman but has no DESIRE to have SRS is not transsexual. Once again that does not imply that one is better than the other. Personally I really could care less what someone does or says they are. But they sure as heck are not going to convince me that they are a transsexual when they want to keep thier penis.

In closing, I realize that some of you have nothing good to say about me and that is fine. I am NOT here to make friends, rather I would perefer to focus my friendships on non trans people because its a lot healther.
I am not here to address the feelings or concerns for the people that are not serious. I am here to help a VERY small few that are serious. Because there are so few real transsexual women and even fewer that have had SRS and went on, I feel I can be helpful. My perspectives are based upon having lived through the process beayond SRS and FFS. That would make me an expert in some ways. Since very few of you have had SRS I would suggest you accept you might not know quite as much as someone that has had it.

Do I have some hard and fast beliefs? Sure. I have earned them! I actually lived the process, I didnt live it in the fantasy world of the internet.

QUOTE=kellycan27;2533748]Seems to me that the gist of the OP is that you really don't need any female attributes to be a woman other than what you have in head and heart.[/QUOTE]

Areyan

07-01-2011, 10:23 PM

i had a response all ready for this thread on behalf of the brothers, as i got mildly offended at page 1 or 2 when Capt Lex was dissed... damn. i post here in the TS forum fairly regularly and i'm FTM. hello :wave:

i just read through the entire series of replies and all i can do is shake my head. really? ugh.

:facepalm:

Badtranny

07-02-2011, 01:42 AM

Gosh folks, I wasn't trying to start a grumble fest.

Freddie posted something a while back about this being a discussion group and we should discuss things and I happened to agree with her 100% so I thought I would initiate a topic for us to discuss. I enjoy exploring our various motivations and objectives and our feelings about why we are the way we are. I'm always interested in how other people arrive at the same place when they took a totally different route. I love the vigorous back and forth with intelligent (but open minded) people whose pointed arguments sometimes stretch the limits of what I know, or what I think I know. This is an internet forum after all. What else are we supposed to do within the texty confines of a discussion board?

Instead of forthright discussion, everyone just picked a corner and squared off against each other. That's not exactly what I had in mind, even though I do tend to see what I want to see most of the time.

I will admit that there are certain members that tend to kill discussion threads, but I urge those of you with something to say, to say it and ignore the bullies that would be delighted to get the last word in as if it were law.

Nigella

07-02-2011, 03:22 AM

I've been thinking about this for awhile and I want to explore this topic further on my blog. I was spurred into action by Andy's "you know you're trans" blurbs.

Let's start a list of what being TS is NOT; I'd like to see what the sisterhood comes up with.

Being a TS is NOT about acting like a woman

Being a TS is NOT about passing as a woman

Being a TS is NOT about dressing like a woman

Being a TS is NOT about being pretty

Being a TS is NOT about having surgeries

Okay girls, the floor is yours

Gosh folks, I wasn't trying to start a grumble fest.

Freddie posted something a while back about this being a discussion group and we should discuss things and I happened to agree with her 100% so I thought I would initiate a topic for us to discuss. I enjoy exploring our various motivations and objectives and our feelings about why we are the way we are. I'm always interested in how other people arrive at the same place when they took a totally different route. I love the vigorous back and forth with intelligent (but open minded) people whose pointed arguments sometimes stretch the limits of what I know, or what I think I know. This is an internet forum after all. What else are we supposed to do within the texty confines of a discussion board?

Instead of forthright discussion, everyone just picked a corner and squared off against each other. That's not exactly what I had in mind, even though I do tend to see what I want to see most of the time.

I will admit that there are certain members that tend to kill discussion threads, but I urge those of you with something to say, to say it and ignore the bullies that would be delighted to get the last word in as if it were law..

well what did you really expect when you open a discussion with such a statement.

A discussion is about discussing what is put in front of you, adding your opinion to that topic and then seeing how things develope.

When Fredrique starts a discussion she uses a measured approach to the topic and does not make blanket statements. Whilst I admit, for me, some of her topics are a little deep, they do offer a chance for a true discussion to take place, I have never seen one of her posts develop into a war.

If you want to discuss things on this forum, without them going down the pan, offer a choice of "sides", not just one blanket statement, too many people try to "force" a view and then wonder why they get shot to pieces.

Just my :2c:

Deborah_UK

07-02-2011, 07:36 AM

I'm TS. I know it. I don't need validation or approval from anyone else.

So when people pontificate on other peoples circumstances and say you are or are not TS. Ignore em. Just because someone says you are or are not matters not one jot.

If Kate says I'm not TS do I care? No I don't. I know I'm TS and have known virtually all my life, but only in the last few years have I actually done something about it.

So if, in your heart of hearts you know you are a woman (or man in a FTM), then go with your heart.

dawnmarrie1961

07-02-2011, 10:39 AM

Being TS is not about what anyone else thinks,feels or percieves. It is about what you think,feel and percieve.

Jay Cee

07-02-2011, 11:22 AM

..I am NOT here to make friends...

That comes as somewhat of a shock to me. ;)

Reading this thread, I went from annoyance to overwhelming confusion about myself. The final stage was "what the hell do I care about others definitions of transexualism, or how I may fit in on the spectrum?" So I gained some perspective, and I would like to thank you all for that.

Badtranny

07-02-2011, 12:08 PM

That comes as somewhat of a shock to me. ;)
Reading this thread, I went from annoyance to overwhelming confusion about myself. The final stage was "what the hell do I care about others definitions of transexualism, or how I may fit in on the spectrum?" So I gained some perspective, and I would like to thank you all for that.

Well Jay Cee that's exactly how I like to feel after a discussion on topics I'm not sure I agree with. There's always two sides ya know and as silly as it may seem to you, that other point of view is there for a reason and it's often just as vaild.
I know there was some dust kicked up but I also know that there were some girls who understood and accepted my original premise which is;

Being a TS isn't about anything. It's a state of being, and everything we do after we accept ourselves (makeup, surgeries) is simply an expression of who we are.

I wasn't being exclusive, or divisive, I was trying to open a discussion that would result in all of us realizing that we are the same. Of course I didn't expect the negativity, but que sera.

Nigella, maybe I'm just dumb but I still fail to see how my opening remarks were inflammatory, but I guess if you're always looking for a fight than you're bound to find one.

I've grown weary of this "discussion".

Nigella

07-02-2011, 01:07 PM

Nigella, maybe I'm just dumb but I still fail to see how my opening remarks were inflammatory, but I guess if you're always looking for a fight than you're bound to find one.

I've grown weary of this "discussion".

Two things for you,

Please do explain where the idea of imflammation came from!! I certainly have not stated anywhere that your OP was inflammatory,
well what did you really expect when you open a discussion with such a statement.. It is a blanket statement, without taking into account how others may feel about their own situation, by presenting one point of view and reinforcing it by using capital letters to make a further point. A few have said what being a TS is, its about the individual not the pack.

Secondly, if you have grown weary, just say the word and I'll quite happily close the thread for you, especially as it would seem you no longer feel that this is a discussion.

Starling

07-02-2011, 02:13 PM

...Okay girls, the floor is yours.

I think Melissa's OP was intended as a gentle reminder that transsexuality is not defined by any action we take, but rather is a state of being, an SOB that pre-exists anything we might do in response. It's clear from her photos that Melissa takes great care with her presentation; she wants to pass as a woman; she dresses like a woman; she's pretty. These facts just don't define her as a transsexual.

Perhaps to some, Melissa's last line seemed like a challenge. I took it as an invitation.

:) Lallie

PS: And by the way, you'll notice that Andy's observations are not normative or categorical, but are personal and rather sweet.

Kaitlyn Michele

07-02-2011, 09:44 PM

melissa makes a great point...it is a deep need for transsexuals to express who they are...and all that "stuff" for transsexuals is an expression of ...transsexuality..
but its also a deep need of other gender conflicted people of all stripes.

you can say who cares, i know who i am..but because its such a deep need, i care about what i am and am not...
and i reserve the right to say that if a person enjoys and embraces having male parts, and actively intends to keep them and enjoying them, or live half their life male just because they want to, than they are different than me...
and it doesn't feel right to have that person push me to say this is not true... and it's sad when i say this that some people feel like it's a slight .....

i am pretty sure that if i was in a room with most of you talking about this we could have a much easier conversation btw... forum discussions are not always pretty.

Katesback

07-02-2011, 10:54 PM

I like your way of putting it. Thing is that if I was sitting next to someone dressed as a woman and said they were transsexual and wanted to keep thier male parts I would be thinking they were something else. That does not mean they are better or worse than me for I do not care. What I care about is a girl who has a penis and wants to keep it sure as hell is not like me and the millions of other women out there.

Another way to put it is someone who dresses as a woman and wants to keep thier penis were to mention this to any woman on the street they would sure as hell not see them as a woman!!!!

melissa makes a great point...it is a deep need for transsexuals to express who they are...and all that "stuff" for transsexuals is an expression of ...transsexuality..
but its also a deep need of other gender conflicted people of all stripes.

you can say who cares, i know who i am..but because its such a deep need, i care about what i am and am not...
and i reserve the right to say that if a person enjoys and embraces having male parts, and actively intends to keep them and enjoying them, or live half their life male just because they want to, than they are different than me...
and it doesn't feel right to have that person push me to say this is not true... and it's sad when i say this that some people feel like it's a slight .....

i am pretty sure that if i was in a room with most of you talking about this we could have a much easier conversation btw... forum discussions are not always pretty.

Bree-asaurus

07-02-2011, 11:35 PM

I think there's a little misunderstanding with the whole "keeping the penis" thing... So many people are saying if you WANT to keep your penis your not trans...

I have two reasons why I would want to keep my penis...
1) because my boyfriend has a vagina and the ability for us to fit together is a nice feeling and connection (even though I still have issues when we do that)
2) I would be better off financially

However, I still have NUMEROUS reasons why I wish I didn't have it... even though it has a couple benefits, that doesn't mean I feel like I should have been born with it... it doesn't mean it doesn't depress the hell out of me as well. In my case, I'll hopefully get rid of it... but a transexual can feel like their penis doesn't belong, and after weighing their options, decide the WANT to keep it because with whatever they have to deal with in their life, they would be better off keeping it.

Those of you who think I'm countering your statements probably already feel this way... it just doesn't come off clear in your posts, especially katesback who is extremely blunt and doesn't give any reasons or clarifications behind her statements. Some of you just come across as "OMG YOUR NOT TRANS IF YOU CAN LOOK AT YOUR PENIS IN THE MIRROR WITHOUT CRYING" ... kinda :P

Jay Cee

07-02-2011, 11:56 PM

Well Jay Cee that's exactly how I like to feel after a discussion on topics I'm not sure I agree with. There's always two sides ya know and as silly as it may seem to you, that other point of view is there for a reason and it's often just as vaild.
I know there was some dust kicked up but I also know that there were some girls who understood and accepted my original premise which is;

Being a TS isn't about anything. It's a state of being, and everything we do after we accept ourselves (makeup, surgeries) is simply an expression of who we are.

Two sides? I'm betting more like six. Or eight. Maybe more. ;)

No complaints from me. I may be baffled by another forum member's opinion. I may even be mildly angered at times. However, if I get something out of it that helps me to accept myself, then I've come out ahead.

Kaitlyn Michele

07-03-2011, 10:40 AM

I was ambivalent about my penis... it was just something on the list...i was much more interested in ffs and being accepted as female..

i recall having a dream about walking down the street and all my clothes fell off, and everyone stared at me with a penis..!!! yikes!!
and i recall being reminded every day of course that i had a penis...i remember trudging off to srs, not excited, more determined...

what i learned, and have been sharing, is that getting the surgery was a transcendant thing..it changed everything...it changed everything in a way i had not anticipated..it didn't make me happy after the initial euphoria...
it just ended my feeling of otherness.... i thought i was doing find with my penis, but what i didn't realize was that i could feel "cisgendered"... i am much more about sharing this thing i learned than excluding people...i learned from this that my internal fear that i was not transsexual, that i was making a huge mistake was eliminated through srs...through gender "confirmation" surgery..

this is where i get my data... this isn't what's in my head..it's what happened..it's important to me to share my experience... i learned from it...
saying you are better off keeping is not wanting it and

i am sorry if someone feels hurt or excluded by something i say...perhaps it is true that some people do not need that confirmation..however to not even desire it in any way does not compute with me..

To one of your points Bree we are different in an important way...
i never ever ever felt "connected" with someone with my penis...does that make sense? i could have sex, i could get off, i could please someone, but it never felt like a connection..ever
after having sex as a woman, i can't say i was in love with anyone, but the sex was connected, and it was me and i didn't feel like a fraud in bed..i felt satisfied and connected

i think there is a ton of rationalization in many of the people that are transtioning about surgery/passing/ffs/srs... people that don't do these things for whatever reason are forever going to convince people that had these things that they are ts too..
i think in the end almost every person here that has posted is what we would all call "ts"... i'm sure there are some talkers and fakers...but fear, guilt, shame, money, need for love, shamex2, depression all impact us deeply in our shared experience, and it messes with your mind...

I think there's a little misunderstanding with the whole "keeping the penis" thing... So many people are saying if you WANT to keep your penis your not trans...

I have two reasons why I would want to keep my penis...
1) because my boyfriend has a vagina and the ability for us to fit together is a nice feeling and connection (even though I still have issues when we do that)
2) I would be better off financially

However, I still have NUMEROUS reasons why I wish I didn't have it... even though it has a couple benefits, that doesn't mean I feel like I should have been born with it... it doesn't mean it doesn't depress the hell out of me as well. In my case, I'll hopefully get rid of it... but a transexual can feel like their penis doesn't belong, and after weighing their options, decide the WANT to keep it because with whatever they have to deal with in their life, they would be better off keeping it.

Those of you who think I'm countering your statements probably already feel this way... it just doesn't come off clear in your posts, especially katesback who is extremely blunt and doesn't give any reasons or clarifications behind her statements. Some of you just come across as "OMG YOUR NOT TRANS IF YOU CAN LOOK AT YOUR PENIS IN THE MIRROR WITHOUT CRYING" ... kinda :P

Katesback

07-03-2011, 11:28 AM

I concur with this. As I have said before once you have SRS transition really begins. Anything before is with training wheels. Perhaps thats why I say SRS has to be a desire for someone to actually be transsexual. I submit to you that if Bree were to become single her focal point on SRS would change. The only thing placating her desire at this time is the circumstances she has going on in her life at the moment.

I realize that many of you get all defensive when someone says something you dont like. The problem is that in the real world you rarely hear people say things you want to hear. On the contrary you are faced with comments that you do not want to hear. That girls is why I am the way I am. I have transpired the real world into the fantasy world of this forum. If you are to be successful you should be able to take comments you dont like and digest them and perhaps come to realize the comment is the truth and realistic.

So back to the person that appears as a woman but wants to keep thier penis. For this person to say they are transsexual is a slap across the face of someone who is actually transsexual or a woman for that matter. It would be like someone saying that because drag queens fit into the transgender relm they are the same as a transsexual. I have news for you I am not drag queen! I am not like the person that looks like a woman but wants to have a penis! I am a woman and women do not willfully have penises!

This does not mean that I look down upon other people that are not like me, but when they suggest that they actually are like me I say hell no. I went through the process that few have and I stand here and say if your not willing to follow through with the transition process then you are not like me, you are not transsexual, and you are not a woman because women don't have penises.

Katie

I was ambivalent about my penis... it was just something on the list...i was much more interested in ffs and being accepted as female..

i recall having a dream about walking down the street and all my clothes fell off, and everyone stared at me with a penis..!!! yikes!!
and i recall being reminded every day of course that i had a penis...i remember trudging off to srs, not excited, more determined...

what i learned, and have been sharing, is that getting the surgery was a transcendant thing..it changed everything...it changed everything in a way i had not anticipated..it didn't make me happy after the initial euphoria...
it just ended my feeling of otherness.... i thought i was doing find with my penis, but what i didn't realize was that i could feel "cisgendered"... i am much more about sharing this thing i learned than excluding people...i learned from this that my internal fear that i was not transsexual, that i was making a huge mistake was eliminated through srs...through gender "confirmation" surgery..

this is where i get my data... this isn't what's in my head..it's what happened..it's important to me to share my experience... i learned from it...
saying you are better off keeping is not wanting it and

i am sorry if someone feels hurt or excluded by something i say...perhaps it is true that some people do not need that confirmation..however to not even desire it in any way does not compute with me..

To one of your points Bree we are different in an important way...
i never ever ever felt "connected" with someone with my penis...does that make sense? i could have sex, i could get off, i could please someone, but it never felt like a connection..ever
after having sex as a woman, i can't say i was in love with anyone, but the sex was connected, and it was me and i didn't feel like a fraud in bed..i felt satisfied and connected

i think there is a ton of rationalization in many of the people that are transtioning about surgery/passing/ffs/srs... people that don't do these things for whatever reason are forever going to convince people that had these things that they are ts too..
i think in the end almost every person here that has posted is what we would all call "ts"... i'm sure there are some talkers and fakers...but fear, guilt, shame, money, need for love, shamex2, depression all impact us deeply in our shared experience, and it messes with your mind...

Badtranny

07-03-2011, 12:01 PM

Another great post Kaitlyn,

I'm also ambivalent, I don't hate it, I don't love it, I just have it and I'm not sure I want to go through all the trouble of getting rid of it. I love your transcendence comment, it make me think that I might be really ambivalent about the vagina and in that sense I don't even know what I'm talking about.

Time will tell, but right now, I don't mind the pickle and you know what else? I even stand up to pee when it's appropriate. I got in an argument with a pre-op lady once about peeing! She said she sits down every time even at home and I was stunned. If you have it, why not use it? It's so much more convenient. When I'm in a ladies restroom, I obviously sit because that's the protocol, but at home?! She was emphatic that there was something wrong with me if I don't completely disregard my genitalia. I believe the next day is when I fired up my blog and started calling it badtranny. ;-)

I'm not pretending that I don't have body issues. I've hated my body since I can remember, I used to work out obsessively but I was never comfortable in my skin until I started HRT. I can honestly say I love my body now. I stopped lifting weights a couple of years ago and started dieting and now I've finally got the feminine form that feels like home. I have some remaining work to do, some additional lipo shaping, breast implants, and some facial feminization but I feel happy and confident for the first time in my life, and my future finally looks exciting instead of the "same old drag".

Maybe some day down the road I will consider the final cut, but for the foreseeable future my lifestyle is far more important than whatever is under my skirt.

patriciatg2

07-03-2011, 12:05 PM

1.My theory of TS/MTF Cohesion has been proven.
2.All MTF's include CD's that have gone the whole way to TS .
3.The TS are now experts and cannot acknowledge the CD's, MTF's, non-op TS ideas..
4.The non-TS know nothing until they become TS. So why reply?
5. The lack of cohesion prevents the "T" of LGBT from ever being considered as a group like gays..
6. As much womanly gossip as I hear from y'all leads me to believe that you you all made it womanhood.

Kaitlyn Michele

07-03-2011, 12:06 PM

i can still stand up to pee if i really want...hehe

patricia... i think its too strong to say I am an expert and cannot "acknowledge" ideas...i can only share what i experienced though, and my experience includes extensive work and knowledge of cd's and ts's, lots of group therapy interactions, and lots of non-op ts people...in 5 minutes i'm taking my best friend out dressed...she is a cd and love her to death... she loves going out with me dressed..we talk about this stuff all time...i think cd's have an inferiority complex sometimes...

the reason T is not a group is because we are very small in numbers, ts people are generally poor because of the expense and the dislike of us in the workplace, lots of ts blend rather than stay out, and more cd's than not are closeted, and we challenge people more because lots of folks have decided that what's in the bedroom is not their business(dont ask dont tell)...only passable girls and guys have this option, otherwise we are right there in front of them...there are lots of different types of LGB people, but they are much more out, and there are lots and lots more of them..

Bree-asaurus

07-03-2011, 12:10 PM

To one of your points Bree we are different in an important way...
i never ever ever felt "connected" with someone with my penis...does that make sense? i could have sex, i could get off, i could please someone, but it never felt like a connection..ever
after having sex as a woman, i can't say i was in love with anyone, but the sex was connected, and it was me and i didn't feel like a fraud in bed..i felt satisfied and connected

I can't get off when having sex the "traditional" way. I feel connected with my boyfriend because I love him... not simply because I'm using my penis. I still enjoy sex FAR more when he's focusing more on other parts of me and when I don't have my flawed body in the back of my mind.

There is no way in hell I would just be able to have sex with some non-trans guy I don't love... with or without my penis. And if my boyfriend wasn't an FTM, I would most definitely have even more issues with having sex and I don't even know if I would want my penis to come into the equation since he wouldn't really understand how I feel about it.

In our relationship, we are both transexual and we both have parts that we don't want... we both know what the other is dealing with.

So you're saying that because I can enjoy being with my boyfriend with or without my penis, even though I still can't get off when I use it, that I still sometimes get depressed after using it, that I am not a transexual? You're saying that because my boyfriend can feel a connection with me when he uses his vagina, that he is not a transexual? I might be making an assumption that you are saying that this is an "important difference" between us because I'm not transexual like you... but I may just be getting defensive, so I apologize if this is not what you're saying.

Both of us would gladly swap our parts if we could... but it's not feasible for him and there is a chance it may not be feasible for me.

I went through the process that few have and I stand here and say if your not willing to follow through with the transition process then you are not like me, you are not transsexual, and you are not a woman because women don't have penises.

So by that you are also saying men don't have vaginas... but there are tons of FTMs and supporters who would spit in your face if you said that to them in person.

I gave you more credit than you deserve Kate. You are just as bad as the preachers and the religious fundamentalists. The genitalia does not determine the gender... SRS does not make you transexual. I am very happy to not be like you... I would never want to be like you. But I am a transexual, and you can take that as a slap in the face if you want.

Katesback

07-03-2011, 12:36 PM

Bree my points also apply to transmen. If they willfullingly want to have or keep thier vagina they are not transsexual. The fact that they have not had SRS is the clear state of the surgery at this time. I cannot fault a transguy for not getting SRS because it sucks at this time.

I can't get off when having sex the "traditional" way. I feel connected with my boyfriend because I love him... not simply because I'm using my penis. I still enjoy sex FAR more when he's focusing more on other parts of me and when I don't have my flawed body in the back of my mind.

There is no way in hell I would just be able to have sex with some non-trans guy I don't love... with or without my penis. And if my boyfriend wasn't an FTM, I would most definitely have even more issues with having sex and I don't even know if I would want my penis to come into the equation since he wouldn't really understand how I feel about it.

In our relationship, we are both transexual and we both have parts that we don't want... we both know what the other is dealing with.

So you're saying that because I can enjoy being with my boyfriend with or without my penis, even though I still can't get off when I use it, that I still sometimes get depressed after using it, that I am not a transexual? You're saying that because my boyfriend can feel a connection with me when he uses his vagina, that he is not a transexual?

Both of us would gladly swap our parts if we could... but it's not feasible for him and there is a chance it may not be feasible for me.

So by that you are also saying men don't have vaginas... but there are tons of FTMs and supporters who would spit in your face if you said that to them in person.

I gave you more credit than you deserve Kate. You are just as bad as the preachers and the religious fundamentalists. The genitalia does not determine the gender... SRS does not make you transexual. I am very happy to not be like you... I would never want to be like you. But I am a transexual, and you can take that as a slap in the face if you want.

Badtranny

07-03-2011, 12:37 PM

I realize that many of you get all defensive when someone says something you dont like. The problem is that in the real world you rarely hear people say things you want to hear. On the contrary you are faced with comments that you do not want to hear. That girls is why I am the way I am. I have transpired the real world into the fantasy world of this forum. If you are to be successful you should be able to take comments you dont like and digest them and perhaps come to realize the comment is the truth and realistic.

Excuse me? That's just an outrageous statement considering the source. It's also a little bizarre that you continue to talk about this real world like you're the only one who lives in it. That's particularly offensive to me because I am currently in the delicate process of trying to transition without dismantling a great career. It may seem unimportant to those post transition gals, but to me, maintaining my comfortable income is a very high priority. In this real life you speak of, I had two meetings with colleagues just this last Friday and told them both about my plans to complete the transition next year and I will be needing them on my team as I look for a new place to hang my hardhat. Both meetings went remarkably well but I need to balance coming out with keeping my current bosses in the dark so they don't get a sense that I would be leaving anytime soon. The real world requires patience and personal sacrifice in order to achieve a worthwhile goal. I certainly don't suscribe to any internet fantasies, in fact my real life is documented on my blog. I submit that none of the respondents in this particular thread are living any kind of fantasy life either.

This does not mean that I look down upon other people that are not like me, but when they suggest that they actually are like me I say hell no.
Katie

Well I can say with certainty that I've never suggested that I was anything like you. Since I'm not TS by your definition, then you and I have absolutely nothing in common.

Katesback

07-03-2011, 12:50 PM

So you are weighting the career over transition. It appears you place that at the highest importance and thats fine. The problem is then you sacrifice transition which is something that takes 100% effort. Also do you think that living as a woman but willingfully keeping your penis is going to help you succeed? I mean really? In most places you cannot change records such as social security. To your employer your social security will indicate your MALE.

I cannot see that helping you with your valuable career. Finally another point. Telling someone about your goals is a lot different than showing them. It would be wise of you to make a decision and follow through with it and avoid at all costs talking about it! That means do it and keep your mouth shut. But then you already said the career and money are important and how I read it more important than actually transitioning. If you need advice from a couple guys I know that had SRS and live life as a men durring the day and girl at night I can try to connect you with them. I mean hey they have succeeded at getting SRS and still being a part time girl. Very special indeed.

Excuse me? That's just an outrageous statement considering the source. It's also a little bizarre that you continue to talk about this real world like you're the only one who lives in it. That's particularly offensive to me because I am currently in the delicate process of trying to transition without dismantling a great career. It may seem unimportant to those post transition gals, but to me, maintaining my comfortable income is a very high priority. In this real life you speak of, I had two meetings with colleagues just this last Friday and told them both about my plans to complete the transition next year and I will be needing them on my team as I look for a new place to hang my hardhat. Both meetings went remarkably well but I need to balance coming out with keeping my current bosses in the dark so they don't get a sense that I would be leaving anytime soon. The real world requires patience and personal sacrifice in order to achieve a worthwhile goal. I certainly don't suscribe to any internet fantasies, in fact my real life is documented on my blog. I submit that none of the respondents in this particular thread are living any kind of fantasy life either.

Well I can say with certainty that I've never suggested that I was anything like you. Since I'm not TS by your definition, then you and I have absolutely nothing in common.

Bree-asaurus

07-03-2011, 12:57 PM

Excuse me? That's just an outrageous statement considering the source. It's also a little bizarre that you continue to talk about this real world like you're the only one who lives in it.

I believe Katesback lives in her own fantasy world where people who don't follow her path are not transexual. She seems to know so much about everyone else without actually knowing anyone she is criticizing. I think she assumes that because people post on here, they are living out their fantasies on the internet... and until you post on here proclaiming you got SRS, you aren't a REAL SERIOUS transexual. I use this forum as a place to meet other people going through what I'm going through, to vent, and to share my experiences. I live my own life, and have my own struggles and am going through my own transition in the "real world." She doesn't see this though so she's still the supreme transexual with the power to diagnose all others.

So you are weighting the career over transition. It appears you place that at the highest importance and thats fine. The problem is then you sacrifice transition which is something that takes 100% effort. Also do you think that living as a woman but willingfully keeping your penis is going to help you succeed? I mean really? In most places you cannot change records such as social security. To your employer your social security will indicate your MALE.

How is getting SRS going to help her succeed? SRS is something she would do for herself... not her job. You kinda need to have a career to afford SRS...

A background check will still show that you had your name and gender changed. Some states, you can't even change your birth certificate. Being born the wrong gender will ALWAYS follow you, wherever you go. Personally, if I stay self employed, I'll be fine. But if I ever get another job in my field, it's highly likely that I will need to get a background check. Guess what shows up then? Even after my license is changed, and after my California birth certificate states I'm female, that change is still recorded and will still be found. It's something you have to live with.

Transition takes a lot of work, but not everyone is willing to make the rest of their lives miserable just to cut off a growth. Not everyone is in your position Kate, so everyone is going to take their own personal road to transition. I'm certainly not going to lose everything and add an insane amount of additional stress to an already stressful life to "give it 100%" like you say. I'm going to play it smart, take my time and have a happy life AND successfully transition... not trade one misery for another.

Transitioning is expensive, and it is extremely helpful to have the rest of your life on track to be able to do it. I don't need my house. I can have an apartment. I don't need all my cars, I just need one. I am willing to severely reduce my lifestyle, but I'm not willing to lose my job. If I lose my job, I lose the ability to pay for electrolysis, HRT, SRS, etc.

Kate, why don't you write a book on the perfect way to transition since you have it all figured out for everyone else?

patriciatg2

07-03-2011, 01:32 PM

Kate Could you please be more condescending? I haven't read Mein Kampf yet nor the Communist Manifesto but I believe we all have the right to live our own lives in "the real world". I don't have time to ride motorcycles, party or just hang out. I too value my job -the 451st job I applied for after the big layoff. I think I'm doing pretty well, going paycheck to paycheck. I didnt have the $ to complete my transition and probably never will, but I am content with having the feminine body I have even tho I wear man clothes to work-because I have to have a job. I wasn't blest like you obviously were with having a big money account. Having a job and benefits is very important during these tough economic times. No one sees my boobs or puts two and two together as I leave my feminine self at home. As Melissa said "The real world requires patience and personal sacrifice in order to achieve a worthwhile goal." AND that really is the best I can do right now. Patricia

It may seem unimportant to those post transition gals, but to me, maintaining my comfortable income is a very high priority. In this real life you speak of, I had two meetings with colleagues just this last Friday and told them both about my plans to complete the transition next year and I will be needing them on my team as I look for a new place to hang my hardhat. Both meetings went remarkably well but I need to balance coming out with keeping my current bosses in the dark so they don't get a sense that I would be leaving anytime soon. The real world requires patience and personal sacrifice in order to achieve a worthwhile goal. I certainly don't suscribe to any internet fantasies, in fact my real life is documented on my blog. I submit that none of the respondents in this particular thread are living any kind of fantasy life either.

Frances

07-03-2011, 01:34 PM

Bree-asaurus

07-03-2011, 01:44 PM

In my province and in most of my country, SRS is paid for by the government. I have a question for all the forumites who say they do not want SRS or rationalize keeping their penis or vagina. Would you have the surgery if the surgery was free? Or is your penis or vagina such an intrinsic part of your being that you still would not have it?

I never said I hope to keep it... if SRS was free, I'd be on the phone in 2 minutes trying to schedule an appointment. I'm saying if I can't afford it without destroying the rest of my life, I have found one benefit in keeping it... in the extremely deep pool of discomfort it brings me... and I will continue trying to make the best of it and keep trying to learn to live with it until I can get SRS.

I'm very afraid of surgery... I've never been to the hospital... but I will get over that for SRS... oh my god I will get over that.

Aprilrain

07-03-2011, 01:48 PM

Frances

07-03-2011, 02:11 PM

NOTHING is free!!!!!!!!!! someone is paying for all those "free" medical procedures.

Yes, me and everyone else in my country. I also pay for habitual smokers with cancer, and extreme sport enthusiasts with multiple fractures. Being middle-class, I pay more taxes than most. I don't need an explanation on my country's taxation and medicare systems. I am asking you would have the surgery if you did not have to spend a dime over what you have been spending in taxes your entire life or would you still keep and even use your penis or vagina?

Felix

07-03-2011, 02:20 PM

Hy felix here I am a post op Transsexual Male I have to say it has always been important to me to pass as male not only for my own comfort but for those around me to see the real me and not some ambiguous person that they cant desipher. No disrespect to anyone else this is just a personal view.
I agree not everyone can afford surgery and some may be because of health reasons.
I agree totally TG is not Transsexual.
I never dressed up Ive always except when in deep denial of who I was dressed male.
Xx Felix :-)

patriciatg2

07-03-2011, 02:37 PM

In my province medical service is not free and comes out of my pocket. So I don't have the Luxury of hoping the government will remove my extra equipment in my pocket. Must be nice to have other taxpayers pay for your medical!

Frances

07-03-2011, 03:02 PM

Must be nice to have other taxpayers pay for your medical!

Like I said, I am an other taxpayer myself. It must be nice for smokers to have me paying for their radio and chemotherapy. THAT IS NOT THE POINT! I see so much rationalizing from people on this Website about their genitals. I am asking HYPOTHETICALLY, would you have the surgery if you did not have to pay for it? For the record, the letters for my free surgery cost me $15,000.

Badtranny

07-03-2011, 03:12 PM

Yeah ladies Frances is right. Let's not let this devolve further into some weird political discussion.

Let's stay focused on my penis please. ;-)

Jay Cee

07-03-2011, 03:38 PM

Yeah ladies Frances is right. Let's not let this devolve further into some weird political discussion.

+1 on that.

Let's stay focused on my penis please. ;-)

:D

And please remember this:

..I am NOT here to make friends...

Is anyone else seeing more than a bit of judgement and harshness here? Please, ladies (and gentlemen)... step back, take a deep breath, and try to lower your blood pressure a bit.

Melody Moore

07-03-2011, 05:07 PM

First of all statement is aimed at the comments of Katesback

My pyschologist told me once 'There are many women with penises & men with vaginas'.

This weekend I spent with a group of lesbian friends who see me & accept me fully as a woman & yet I am still pre-op &
I also found out this weekend this group of girls will viscously defend me against anyone who ever tried to say otherwise.

One of my lesbian girlfriends who I was out with is one of these men with vaginas who is more masculine (male) than
lot of so called 'men' I know. In fact whenever she goes to use the female toilets she is often confused as being a guy
by other girls who are using the toilets & yet if she walked into the men's toilet noone would bat any eyelid.

So I will say it again for Kate's sake.. 'YOUR GENDER IDENTITY IS NOT DEFINED BY WHAT IS BETWEEN YOUR LEGS!'

danielle40I

07-03-2011, 05:42 PM

Amen Melody! You're spot on.

Rianna Humble

07-03-2011, 06:24 PM

This does not mean that I look down upon other people that are not like me, but when they suggest that they actually are like me I say hell no.

I don't think many people are insane enough to want to be as bigoted as you, Kate.

Kate, why don't you write a book on the perfect way to transition since you have it all figured out for everyone else?

Publsihers generally want there to be some content before they will publish a book

Kaitlyn Michele

07-04-2011, 08:16 AM

So you're saying that because I can enjoy being with my boyfriend with or without my penis, even though I still can't get off when I use it, that I still sometimes get depressed after using it, that I am not a transexual? You're saying that because my boyfriend can feel a connection with me when he uses his vagina, that he is not a transexual? I might be making an assumption that you are saying that this is an "important difference" between us because I'm not transexual like you... but I may just be getting defensive, so I apologize if this is not what you're saying.

Apology accepted LOL....sorry if i was unclear
..the thought you mentioned above never occured to me.. i was curious what you meant by connected..
i never felt a connection THROUGH sex...sex always felt uncomfortable to me no matter what i tried... pls look at the last two sentences of that post..

Okay melody, transsexuals and women are not defined by what's between their legs, I get it....
of course, i don't think I or anyone ever said anything different..we are not talking about the parts you started with ...we are talking about the parts you wish you had

I think it's perfectly reasonable and smart to take your time if you have it... Getting surgeries is invasive and risky, jobs and families get lost... Kate its not crazy at all to work stuff out with people... the better your job, the more valuable you are , the more likely people will work with you....a girl that advised me over the years always said to me "bring your brain along with you" because she felt many ts people lose their heads going all out for transition and surgery with no thought of the consequences..
i like the way she said it...the good thing about trying to work it out is you get to see if you like the way its going...you may find you don't like being the company ts, or that you are getting marginalized (the most likely scenario), but at least you will know you tried, you'll have no burned bridges, and you'll have a better idea of what's best for you..

blowing up your life is not a badge of honor, its just a nasty thing that transsexuals often need to deal with to get what they need...

Sara Jessica

07-04-2011, 09:16 AM

Upon tripping into this thread when it was merely a single page, I knew exactly what was coming...

I have to say one thing. If someone has no desire to have SRS then they ARE NOT TS. If they dont have the means to have SRS then I can take that but if someone wants to be a girl with a penis they sure as hell are not TS!

It has degenerated into a label-fest but in circling back around, the original question was...

What being a TS is not.

Didn't Melissa state this in her original premise? Being TS is not having surgeries. Yep, being TS is not being defined by what is between your legs. Seems the DSM IV kind of supports this premise, that to be diagnosed TS has nothing to do with SRS.

TS is something we are. Transition is something many of us do. Seems pretty simple to me.

Katesback

07-04-2011, 09:26 AM

But the original post said "what being TS is not".

I will state again that a person that wants to live thier life presenting a woman BUT has not desire to have SRS is NOT a TS. That person totally can call themselves transgender but they arent TS. Some people dont like labels but then hey if we didnt have some labels they we would be no different than a CD or drag queen. I personally know I am not a CD or drag queen. Are you?

Am I bigited? Well considering some of you have these mystical powers to discern my intent, or have the ability to read into a statment beayond what is said I will not defend your assertious because your nuts and theres not way to argue with a nut case. Considering that the trans world is filled with nut cases it does not surprise me that many are not willing to face a point of view based on a realistic perspective. Instead many want to play in thier own fantasy world and hear words of encouragement from so called friends. They want thier friends to tell them they are doing great regardless of reality.

A wise transgirl once upon a time told me something I will never forget. She and I were talking about the disfunction within the trans community. She looked at me and said "the problem with many trans people is they need thier asses beat". She had no further desire to talk about trans people. This conversation happend when I was pre-op and I could not understand what she meant. Well you have herd me tell you that transition starts after SRS. I now understand the meaning of her words.

So now we go back to the concept of disfunction within the community. If you are or you support the idea that a person that presents to the world a female but has a penis and has no desire to have SRS is a TRANSSEXUAL your feeding the disfunction. Spare me the gender identity is in your head. Sure thats correct but the formentioned scenerio is nothing more than a glorified crossdresser. They are NOT I repeat NOT a woman. Women dont have penises!

Ya don't like what I say. Well perhaps thats why so very very few post-op girls venture into the community. See they are women. They support women. They do not support disfunction and dont want anything to do with it. They took the steps to be a woman (within the abilities of modern medicine). You can rail me for taking the time to talk to some of you. I have stated my reasons for being here. You dont have to like it and I personally dont care what fakes, nuts, men that want to live like women, or any other sillyness thinks. I care about the few REAL transsexual women that might come here and have REAL questions and want to have a realstic answer from one of the small few that have ACTUALLY gone through the process.

Upon tripping into this thread when it was merely a single page, I knew exactly what was coming...

It has degenerated into a label-fest but in circling back around, the original question was...

What being a TS is not.

Didn't Melissa state this in her original premise? Being TS is not having surgeries. Yep, being TS is not being defined by what is between your legs. Seems the DSM IV kind of supports this premise, that to be diagnosed TS has nothing to do with SRS.

TS is something we are. Transition is something many of us do. Seems pretty simple to me.

pamela_a

07-04-2011, 10:39 AM

Label me also a heretic but Kate is spot on. Women don't want to have a penis, it's not natural. As she's said repeatedly it's not about what you are able to do. It's about what you desire. Just as too many transmen are forced, because of cost and the difficulty of the surgery, are forced to have to live their lives with a vagina that doesn't mean they want to.

The vast majority of this forum appears to be Rah Rah, you go girl cheerleader answers. No matter what is said or done it's all good because everyone's different. Welcome to the cis world. What ever you chose to believe, the "real" world operates by the rule there are 2 genders, male and female. Male's have and love their penises and women have a vagina. Period, end of discussion. A "female" with a penis is a sex object made popular in the porn industry and loved mostly by men I'm not at all interested in being around. It doesn't matter what you want to believe or what you want to happen that's the way the world works. It's not hate or condensation, it's the reality of life in the real world

Standing to pee??? How disgusting!! That something only a MALE does. Although I've heard women comment about wanting to be able to do it the reality is a female can't. Transition involves having the strength, willingness and intestinal fortitude to walk away from the "male privilege" you've grown up with and embrace completely being female.

Hate me just like you hate Kate, that's fine. Take off your rose colored glasses and see how the real world works, not how you want to imagine it to be.

What a TS is not? A TS is a person who wants the external genitalia they are supposed to have and is willing to exhaust all possible ways of accomplishing that. Success is secondary, it's the desire that makes the difference.

JulieK1980

07-04-2011, 11:05 AM

My perspectives are based upon having lived through the process beayond SRS and FFS. That would make me an expert in some ways. Since very few of you have had SRS I would suggest you accept you might not know quite as much as someone that has had it.

So if someone has their gallbladder removed does that make them a surgeon? :brolleyes:

Being TS is what's in your own mind, and heart. It's something no other human being on the planet can answer for you. By the very definition, it's likely the outside doesn't come close to matching what is inside of you.

I think Melody said it best when she said, "There are many women with penises and many men with vaginas." (paraphrased)

Katesback

07-04-2011, 11:15 AM

If you want to belive this then more power to you. I would however suggest you do a poll of people you meet on the street to see if they agree with you perspective. I doubt many people agree with the gender screw concept. I know I dont.

So if someone has their gallbladder removed does that make them a surgeon? :brolleyes:

Being TS is what's in your own mind, and heart. It's something no other human being on the planet can answer for you. By the very definition, it's likely the outside doesn't come close to matching what is inside of you.

I think Melody said it best when she said, "There are many women with penises and many men with vaginas." (paraphrased)

JulieK1980

07-04-2011, 11:47 AM

If you want to belive this then more power to you. I would however suggest you do a poll of people you meet on the street to see if they agree with you perspective. I doubt many people agree with the gender screw concept. I know I dont.

Yes Kate, you've made your position quite clear that you define it by either not having a penis, or desiring to remove it, and more power to you, if you believe that. I personally think that's rather oversimplified. Yes, I could "poll people on the street" to determine their views if I had the least interest in personal opinions of people that know nothing on the topic. However, I'd rather stick to mental/behavioral health and the DSM IV. Opinions are just opinions. Opinions based on research and empirical evidence however, are at least based on reason and evidence. (Still they are just opinions of course, but this is an exercise in subjectivity from the outset.)

Rianna Humble

07-04-2011, 12:23 PM

Am I bigited? Well considering some of you have these mystical powers to discern my intent, or have the ability to read into a statment beayond what is said I will not defend your assertious because your nuts and theres not way to argue with a nut case. Considering that the trans world is filled with nut cases it does not surprise me that many are not willing to face a point of view based on a realistic perspective. Instead many want to play in thier own fantasy world and hear words of encouragement from so called friends. They want thier friends to tell them they are doing great regardless of reality.

Classic mark of a bigot, accusing others of the same hypocrisy that they themselves display.

You claim that we cannot discern your intent through your hate-filled bile, yet you pretend to discern our intent. I can only repeat, someone would need to be certifiably insane to want to be like you

Badtranny

07-04-2011, 12:39 PM

What ever you chose to believe, the "real" world operates by the rule there are 2 genders, male and female. A "female" with a penis is a sex object made popular in the porn industry and loved mostly by men I'm not at all interested in being around. It doesn't matter what you want to believe or what you want to happen that's the way the world works. It's not hate or condensation, it's the reality of life in the real world

Jeeeeezus will you binaries please stop telling us how the real world works! Believe me I've been acquainted with the real world. Why are you people in particular so intent on invoking the real world as if I don't wake up every day and deal with my burgeoning transition and whatever consequences that day brings. I have a mortgage and a boyfriend and a bunch of really incredible friends who who are probably better than I deserve. What part of my life exactly do you and the others think is fantasy?

[/I]Standing to pee??? How disgusting!![/I] That something only a MALE does. Transition involves having the strength, willingness and intestinal fortitude to walk away from the "male privilege" you've grown up with and embrace completely being female.
Hate me just like you hate Kate, that's fine. Take off your rose colored glasses and see how the real world works, not how you want to imagine it to be.

Standing to pee is disgusting? I don't know, I've been in many restrooms where I was thankful that I didn't have to sit. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but personally I think it's a little weird to pretend you don't have a penis when you've had it all your life. You see, I live in the real world where I was born with this body and it's all I know. Even if I did want to eventually get the SRS, I still wouldn't pretend I didn't have a dangly. It's there. I don't live in a fantasy world.

Regarding male privilege, how am I not walking away from it? This time next year I'll be living full time and I can assure you that nobody is likely to mistake me for a man. I should say that my trans status will not be a secret though. Living stealth is not as interesting to me as living out loud. ...and it just occurred to me that you and the SRS brigade are not gonna be happy with that concept at all.

Well Pamela, I'm sorry to disappoint you but I rarely encounter someone in the"real world" that I hate and I can't even imagine feeling that strongly about random people on the internet.

Please explain what you think I'm seeing through my rose colored glasses? My therapist has told me that my realistic outlook on my transition is refreshing because she worries that some of the girls can get a little ahead of themselves. She also said that FFS is far more important to your lifestyle than SRS. Not my words, so don't bark at me.

How do you think I imagine the world to be? I'm taking this transition very seriously because I know how rough the world is and I'm trying to give myself every advantage I can in an effort to overcome the difficulties that transition brings. Anybody who knows my story would completely disagree with your assessment of my rose colored outlook. I know this is serious and I'm acting accordingly. Please tell me how I'm not. If you can.

Starling

07-04-2011, 01:24 PM

With no disrespect to the brothers, I believe this thread has almost literally become a pissing contest. Apparently, it takes real balls to get them cut off.

:) Lallie

PS: But please, I don't want it to stop. I'm learning so much about everybody.

Bree-asaurus

07-04-2011, 02:17 PM

As she's said repeatedly it's not about what you are able to do. It's about what you desire. Just as too many transmen are forced, because of cost and the difficulty of the surgery, are forced to have to live their lives with a vagina that doesn't mean they want to.

That may be what she means, and that I agree with. But the way she shares her opinion comes across as very hateful and rude, and I rarely see her clarify that that is what she actually means. She is also full of other very ignorant and bigoted views that don't really help clarify that the one sane view she has is the one she is expressing.

The vast majority of this forum appears to be Rah Rah, you go girl cheerleader answers. No matter what is said or done it's all good because everyone's different. Welcome to the cis world. What ever you chose to believe, the "real" world operates by the rule there are 2 genders, male and female. Male's have and love their penises and women have a vagina. Period, end of discussion. A "female" with a penis is a sex object made popular in the porn industry and loved mostly by men I'm not at all interested in being around. It doesn't matter what you want to believe or what you want to happen that's the way the world works. It's not hate or condensation, it's the reality of life in the real world

Yes most people in the real world only except the gender binary. But not everyone fits into that binary. Transitioning is not something just classic transexuals do, and not everyone is going from one extreme side to the other. If I felt like I was somewhere in between, I wouldn't transition to be either strictly male or strictly female because that's what the rest of the world dictates. Gender is a spectrum and no, it is not strictly men have penises and women have vaginas. What you believe is not reality Pamela. What you just spewed here is what YOU believe. It may be what most people believe too, but that doesn't mean it's right.

Standing to pee??? How disgusting!! That something only a MALE does. Although I've heard women comment about wanting to be able to do it the reality is a female can't. Transition involves having the strength, willingness and intestinal fortitude to walk away from the "male privilege" you've grown up with and embrace completely being female.

I never stood to pee... never understood it. And no, transitioning isn't to fit into another role you don't belong in. Transitioning is getting over the ignorance and the roles everyone assigned you and to just be yourself. For transexuals, that is usually going to be the opposite gender than that of your birth gender. For many transgendered individuals, being themselves may not mean fitting into a specific role... but to say "screw it" to the two roles we're given and just BE.

Hate me just like you hate Kate, that's fine. Take off your rose colored glasses and see how the real world works, not how you want to imagine it to be.

What a TS is not? A TS is a person who wants the external genitalia they are supposed to have and is willing to exhaust all possible ways of accomplishing that. Success is secondary, it's the desire that makes the difference.

Desire and motivation are two different things. What you do about being TS doesn't determine if you are TS. Just like if a gay man were in the closet his whole life and could never admit to himself that he was gay... that doesn't make him not gay. According to you're logic, I'm more deserving of being TS than you are because I accepted and began transitioning earlier in my life than you. That's not really what I believe, but that's the same kind of bullshit you're spouting off.

Honestly... you all talking about the "real world" are just expressing your opinion. We all live in the real world... some of you are just don't understand that not everything operates the way you feel it should.

Starling

07-04-2011, 03:09 PM

Frances

07-04-2011, 03:28 PM

A point about "male privilege," if you will allow me. MP is something one immediately gives up when she is identified as a gender variant. I could be wrong, but I'd guess that a fully passable post-op transwoman would be treated far better in the mainstream than someone who is out but has not been able to, or chooses not to, have HRT, FFS and SRS.

Totally agree.

Bornstein view of gender as pyramid expressing levels of power, masculine males are on top and feminine females come in second. Gender variants are very low on the power/privilege scale.

Being stealth and passing very well are tremendous privileges in my life that I will not comprise to advance the cause. I am being entirely selfish here, of course. I have lost any male privilege that I may have had at one point in my life (privileges known to me, but most often not), but I have acquired a whole new set of cis-privileges on the female side of society. And SRS only renforced this. I believe there are many ways to be a person, but I wonder why other trans people would not want to acquire cis-privileges through SRS and other actions in support of passing or disappearing. I am asking the question for realz. I am not passing jugement or saying people are wrong for not wanting it.

On thing I have noticed is that a lot of trans folks in early stages of transition (while they are visibly trans), want to be out to the world and neutralise potential hurtful situations on the basis of their trans status, while a few more months of transition would suffice to pass completely.

kellycan27

07-04-2011, 03:51 PM

Totally agree.

Bornstein view of gender as pyramid expressing levels of power, masculine males are on top and feminine females come in second. Gender variants are very low on the power/privilege scale.

Being stealth and passing very well are tremendous privileges in my life that I will not comprise to advance the cause. I am being entirely selfish here, of course. I have lost any male privilege that I may have had at one point in my life (privileges known to me, but most often not), but I have acquired a whole new set of cis-privileges on the female side of society. And SRS only renforced this. I believe there are many ways to be a person, but I wonder why other trans people would not want to acquire cis-privileges through SRS and other actions in support of passing or disappearing. I am asking the question for realz. I am not passing jugement or saying people are wrong for not wanting it.

On thing I have noticed is that a lot of trans folks in early stages of transition (while they are visibly trans), want to be out to the world and neutralise potential hurtful situations on the basis of their trans status, while a few more months of transition would suffice to pass completely.

Well said! As I said before.. these things may or may not define a woman, but they sure can be a tremendous help while running around out there in society.

Badtranny

07-04-2011, 04:29 PM

Well said! As I said before.. these things may or may not define a woman, but they sure can be a tremendous help while running around out there in society.

I don't have any quarrel with that. But since that point has been made and this thread has morphed into a bit of a pickle bashing, I just want to point out that after I "pass completely" which will be very soon. Who will know what I have in my Seven's unless I tell them? Regarding the vag, let me put the rabid vag wavers (not you Kell and Frances) at ease, by saying that wanting the 'gina isn't the point for me. I've always wanted one, but came to the realization early on that I wasn't gonna get one. Of course later I found out it's indeed possible but it seems like an awful lot of work and risk for something that I can live without.
Does that make me a glorified cross dresser? Honestly I don't really care. I'm not aware of any TS badges that are being awarded and in "real life" the labels mean even less than they do here.
So there is a pack of trannies that don't understand me? Big whoop, I've been on the outside all my life.
Real girls don't want a penis? So what I was born a guy and got my ass kicked all the time because I wasn't "guy" enough. I think I've earned the right to use my twig. I don't have anything against those that like to pretend they don't have one, to each their own. It's none of my business what you're doing down there unless we're gonna get busy and trust me, if you're ambivalent about your pickle, I'm not interested. ;-)
Will I go all the way someday? Kelly and I have chatted about it and she makes a compelling case. (she's my girl and I got her back even when we're on different sides) Who knows it all depends on what's going on. If I'm in a relationship with a man who wants me to keep it, maybe I will. If he wants me to get rid of it, maybe I will. Clearly it's not the defining issue for me.

These days I present as a gender queer who dates men exclusively and soon I will present as a trans woman who dates men exclusively. I'm looking forward to the transition as well as the pending facial and breast procedures. You girls can call me whatever you want, but I can guarantee you that in the "real world" no one will call me a man.

Bree-asaurus

07-04-2011, 04:31 PM

Well said! As I said before.. these things may or may not define a woman, but they sure can be a tremendous help while running around out there in society.

Yuppers!

I envy your boobage Kelly... You are gorgeous (all around, not just talking about your chest :P)!

Who knows it all depends on what's going on. If I'm in a relationship with a man who wants me to keep it, maybe I will. If he wants me to get rid of it, maybe I will. Clearly it's not the defining issue for me.

I felt like that for a little while with my current BF... but I couldn't keep that state of mind... I went back to wanting SRS no matter what happens. (not arguing like a lot of this thread is... I'm just chatting here :) )

Frances

07-04-2011, 04:40 PM

You girls can call me whatever you want, but I can guarantee you that in the "real world" no one will call me a man.

If you are clothed! Keeping the penis makes it harder for a woman to use changing rooms without dividers in some stores, showers in most exercise centres and when personal service is given in lingerie store (when the salesperson is in the changing room with the client helping out). Maybe some day, no one will care about genitals, but for now, they sure seem too.

Melody Moore

07-04-2011, 05:19 PM

Sorry Frances, but SRS or no SRS, there is no way that I would ever completely disrobe & expose my
genitalia in front of any strangers in some changing room in a store & like I said, having SRS would not
make me feel any better about that. Here in Australia we have private cubicles for changing in when
you are trying on clothes in a store. Anyway, how is this really another privilege of being a woman?

The fact is noone knows I am even pre-op unless I tell them - I am not defined as a woman by what is
between my legs, it is what is between my ears & what has this got to do with "What being a TS is NOT"?

Bree, I don't think anyone is really arguing here, people are just expressing conflicting opinions, but the
main thing is that most opinions don't really matter anyway, because the facts are already sitting there. ;)

Frances

07-04-2011, 05:33 PM

Sorry Frances, but SRS or no SRS, there is no way that I would ever completely disrobe & expose my
genitalia in front of any strangers in some changing room in a store & like I said, having SRS would not
make me feel any better about that. Here in Australia we have private cubicles for changing in when
you are trying on clothes in a store. Anyway, how is this really another privilege of being a woman?

You really cannot think of any situation where you would disrobe in front of other women? I could have named a lot more situations. My SRS did not change much in the way I feel about myself, but it did make me feel a whole lot more legitimate in intimate women's spaces, like bathrooms, saunas, etc. You may feel different if and when you have it.

Aprilrain

07-04-2011, 05:48 PM

If you are clothed! Keeping the penis makes it harder for a woman to use changing rooms without dividers in some stores, showers in most exercise centres and when personal service is given in lingerie store (when the salesperson is in the changing room with the client helping out). Maybe some day, no one will care about genitals, but for now, they sure seem too.

That seems like a vanishingly small number of moments in ones life Frances. And I'm not real sure how you guys do it up in Canada but you would NEVER walk into a store changing room in the USA that did not have individual stalls, sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen!

The rest of this is just me rabbling about things I've read here and not directed at anyone in particular. Frankly I am way to selfish to give two hoots what any of you girls or boys choose to do or not do. Though the rest of the "real world" might be walking around obsessing over what defines a boy or girl, and there may in fact be like 8 people who care what defines a TS, after all of the mental, emotional and physical turmoil that accepting myself and doing something about it has caused me I really just don't care what defines a boy, girl or a TS. Im interested in defining ME! It's important to me that I pass as a woman all the time, Why? not cause i care about changing rooms but because I care about my body matching my mind. it cause me to go into extreme depression when I see a male looking back at me in the mirror and that actually has very little to do with my dick. But since I do plan on getting SRS for aesthetic and sexual reasons ( i can't imagine why else it would matter) I sit to pee, I consider it practice. lol. I must confess I don't live in the real world though. Of course I have heard of this "real world" that all of the pontiffs have seen and are here to warn us Fuzzy Bunny, Butterfly land dwellers about, but it sounds like an awful place filled with flesh eating cisgendered zombis waiting to tear poor unsuspecting little transgirls like me limb from limb so they can eat our gender variant brains! So what do I know! I instead live on Earth where the variety of life is overwhelming and where the only constant is change. I know, I know living full time as a woman but still having a penis automatically distorts my view of the "REAL WORLD" so I will just shut up now and enjoy a tall glass of male privilege whilst I go out fully dressed as a female with my female voice probably not really passing. Sure is nice to still be one of the boys! Always was such a joy!

Kelsy

07-04-2011, 05:51 PM

. Would you have the surgery if the surgery was free? ?

Yes tommorrow! Would I be eligible if I became a citizen of your province! seriously I will leave no stone
unturned to find a way to finance my surgeries. Are there no philanthropists to carry this cause!
Sorry for for the slight detour!

Frances

07-04-2011, 05:56 PM

That seems like a vanishingly small number of moments in ones life Frances. And I'm not real sure how you guys do it up in Canada but you would NEVER walk into a store changing room in the USA that did not have individual stalls, sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen!

I am not sure why you and Melody are focusing so much on this example. I was thinking about a store that I heard about in New York actually. Underwear is still worn, of course, but the package may be visible.

How about a spa, or a gym, or a shelter for battered women? The setting does not matter. They are lots of places in life where a woman with a penis would not be welcomed and would be rejected from it (violently sometimes). Keeping the apendage does mean staying away a lot of intimate women's spaces... for now.

Badtranny

07-04-2011, 05:57 PM

Frances, you are correct of course. There is no question that keeping my dangler would require discretion on my part in certain situations.

But like the adorable April and the delightful Melody have stated, it's not likely to happen very often.

Besides, what if I really really wanted it, but just couldn't afford it because I didn't make smart transition decisions in regard to my career? Would that make my life easier?

Frances

07-04-2011, 06:07 PM

Besides, what if I really really wanted it, but just couldn't afford it because I didn't make smart transition decisions in regard to my career? Would that make my life easier?

Only you can answer that question, but transition forced me to file for bankruptcy and it did make my life easier. Getting rid of the constant white noise in the back of my mind (24/7 torment about being the wrong gender) was worth loosing all of my money and family. It is that strong in some of us. The other option was suicide.

Badtranny

07-04-2011, 07:08 PM

Only you can answer that question, but transition forced me to file for bankruptcy and it did make my life easier. Getting rid of the constant white noise in the back of my mind (24/7 torment about being the wrong gender) was worth loosing all of my money and family. It is that strong in some of us. The other option was suicide.

I'm sorry for your struggle sis, I do understand. I haven't considered suicide in many years but there wasn't a day during adolescence that I didn't wish I had the courage to do it.

I've already lost all of my family, and savings but I'll be damned if I'm gonna give up my career without a fight. :-)

Some of you may think I'm too cavalier, but that's your perception. There's a small percentage of people who knows what it's like to grow up a girly boy in a wholly un-accepting environment. It's not a fun life. A vocal group of T-girls thinks they own the struggle. They don't. I've been through it too, I have the stripes.

I've earned the right to make my own decisions. I've faced down the world and said take me or leave me and if I don't give a damn about the acceptance of everyone else, why would I be influenced by a few dinosaurs in the Trans community?

I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it.

(I'm not addressing you specifically Frances, I think you're a doll. I'm speaking generally to the bullies and fundies, whomever they may be)

Frances

07-04-2011, 07:17 PM

I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it.

Some of my best friends are queers, and I love and respect them for it.

Kaitlyn Michele

07-05-2011, 12:41 AM

Melissa.. i think your latest posts are interesting...may i be so bold as to throw some fuel?

so this is what it comes down to? that people that have went through this amazing process, and confirmed their bodies to their minds, and then go on to share the experience with a group that could most benefit from it, are subjected to mocking and scorn?
honest realistic answers to questions from knowledgeable sources are taken as attacks?? i realize some posters here have a reputation for "bluntness" but that's not what i'm talking about...people act like they've been stabbed in the heart when their ts label gets some mud on it..

tranny brigade?!?!?

Well, i would i like to say that I am not a dinosaur

In fact, I am state of the art.

my "ideas" aren't old ideas...i'm not the "tranny brigade"...i don't live in "ideas" i live in the much maligned "real world"...i know you live there too, and you are getting by...you look great, you have lots of good vibes around you...you write gooder than me
but i hope you are not being too cavalier..

please feel free to join the club of out and proud "trannies" that 9 out of 10 wish they approached it differently.. being out is fun for about your 15 minutes of fame..
If you would like to meet all the ts girls that were happily "out" going in, but realized there was a "real world", you don't have to look farther than the myriad broken links, and untended web pages on dr conway's ts women's success page..
Real world...meet internet world.. are you a model? a doctor? a world renowned physicist? if not ... i would urge you to think this through..
For what it's worth, i have met a couple of us that were out and kept their current jobs...if you are in a good place, and you can keep your job..you have a chance...
other than that I don't know one that didnt have to change careers, lower expectations or be stealth...

I am not about telling a person whether they are ts or not...i notice sometimes people think i am...but i don't see how they can take things i say that way....
all i'm ever doing is sharing my experience...with the only group of people i know that actually give a crap about it..and my interpretation of that experience...and its so simple it hurts..
The surgery doesn't make you a woman...it permanently reboots your mind...don't believe me? your loss.. i'm not selling srs tickets..i'm just telling you what the surgery did...and that if you are like me , its inconceivable to me that a person would not want what this surgery did
so i always find it funny when people chide us post ops..telling us "it doesn't matter what's between your legs"..or "having a vagina doesnt make you a woman"......duh!... its not about what the surgery does to your pickle..its about what it does to your mind..
if you can twist your mind in enough knots to feel complete, then you are saving lots of money, and some pain...but i couldn't...

i think melissa you are having some fun at my expense because i tend to use "real world" as part of my posts, i would like to point out that despite your outer confidence and real world experience, you appear quite desperate for affirmation... you are moving mountains to get it in your life..you post pictures highlighting your beauty, assurances about your passing skills, and of course posting to anonymous people on the internet clever Socratic lessons in a Q&A format with predetermined answers designed to confirm YOUR transsexuality.....

and btw to continue with the lesson

"what a ts is NOT"...someone that paid their girly boy dues....
what a ts is NOT" ...someone that loses their family and finances..
"What a ts is NOT"...someone who earned the right to make their decisions... ... just sayin..

so throw those punches at the old dinosaur tranny brigade... i can take it.. i have magic vagina powers

LitaKelley

07-05-2011, 01:50 AM

I haven't read all the posts that followed the OP, but did read Melody's response and do appreciate and agree with her well thought out and accurate response... I'm gonna refrain from commenting much until I read more of the responses and think about it more, but will say this for now..

IF Being a TS is NOT about acting like a woman, why do I act like a woman?

IF Being a TS is NOT about passing as a woman, why does everyone around me see me as and treat me as one?

IF Being a TS is NOT about dressing like a woman, then what should I be wearing if not women's clothing... As a woman, I would expect that I'd wear women's clothing, no?

If you think Being a TS is NOT about being pretty, then you don't think like a woman, because ALL women want to be or feel pretty.

Being a TS is NOT about having surgeries.... OK, you got me there... but damn wish I could afford to have it.

Badtranny

07-05-2011, 02:05 AM

Oh jeez Kaitlyn, did you stop to reload halfway through this?!

That was some pointed stuff, but I'm game and I'll admit to multiple good points. I'll also admit that it's impossible not to like you. I really believe that you're earnest and sincere and I appreciate that. I also appreciate just the right amount of bitchiness, because without it I'm afraid this discussion would be a little too academic in nature and would bore the pants off of me. Oooops, better cover my pickle. ;-)

Okay down to business;
Are you really saying that it's the bullies who are being mocked and scorned? Because there's been some pretty strong language directed at poor little me and all I did was choose to live my life differently. Can you believe that someone would have the nerve to live her own life? I realize that I'm being a little uppity for a pre-op but I can't help it. This is how life made me.

...and I believe what I said was SRS brigade, but now I see I'm being maligned for something else as well. Let's list the things I'm allegedly doing wrong in my transition so far;

1. I'm not sure I'll ever get SRS
2. I'm managing the process carefully so I can maintain my career
3. I'm not sure I want to be stealth
4. I don't always sit down to pee

I'm sure there's more but those are what I've gleaned from the thread so far. So the consensus is I'm not a TS? (maybe not yours, but it's been promoted) I'm cool with that. It seems silly to argue over the label, but why on earth is it so important that I live my life according to your rules, or even the prevailing wisdom? I don't know if you've noticed but I have very little respect for tradition, or seniority. Those things haven't served me very well so far.
If we kept track, I bet that list would grow exponentially over the next few weeks because I have no interest in doing anything that doesn't bring joy into my life. Am I selfish? You bet. I'm not getting any younger and it's inconceivable to me that I should waste any precious time entertaining the demands of the narrow minded. It took me um, 39 years to declare my freedom and that means freedom from everyone who would chain me with their expectations of how I should live.

Why do you think I'm twisting my mind into knots? I accepted my fate sometime after puberty. I stopped crying about my tiny pickle and I just moved on. The agony has passed, I've dealt with it. There's an outside chance that I may revisit that particular pain, but I won't make any guarantees. What I'd like you to remember is, it was a very important thing for YOU to do. I've read dozens of horror stories from girls who regretted the SRS, some to the point of suicide. I just bring that up because there are a million stories in the naked city and every single person has a different perspective. I'm surprised this is such a difficult concept for you to grasp. You seem much brighter than that. (oh no I di'unt)

What I find most compelling about this thread is how similar it is to the message I get from the fundies who always feel compelled to tell me that I will never be a woman. I was born a man and I will die a man no matter how many surgeries I have. I spend very little time (none) trying to convince them otherwise because I understand that their minds are made up. They have a rigid belief system that will not allow for any variance in spirituality, much less something as "simple" as gender. It's quite interesting that I get the same message from a site like this. Surprising. A tiny bit disheartening, but definitely interesting.

Now to my apparent desperation. What?!
I might be an attention *****, but I'm certainly not desperate for affirmation. I'm possibly a borderline narcissist, maybe a little full of myself, arguably full of crap but I am not desperate. Good lord, you may as well call me a dude.

Badtranny

07-05-2011, 02:15 AM

Lita,

Do CD'rs act like women?
Do all trans women pass?
Are the clothes what drives you? If we all had to wear brown jumpsuits would you feel any less feminine?
Are all trans women pretty?

My point was really very simple and not meant to be antagonistic in the least.
None of those things define a TS woman. A female impersonator can do every single thing I mentioned, but still consider himself a man.
I was trying to say that we are who we are regardless of what we look like.
We're not pretending to be women, we are drawing from something that science can't explain.
By this time next year, I will have boobs installed, will that make me a woman? No it won't. I won't be anything different than I already am.

Kelsy

07-05-2011, 04:18 AM

Lita,

By this time next year, I will have boobs installed, will that make me a woman? No it won't. I won't be anything different than I already am.

Finally, a truth that defines my TS experience. By causes unknown I am a woman in essence. The problem is being seen for who I am and the struggle is
removing the years of conditioning, the male physical markers, and over coming the life that was built on a lie in order to become myself.

Melody Moore

07-05-2011, 05:46 AM

I am not sure why you and Melody are focusing so much on this example. I was thinking about a store that I heard about in New York actually. Underwear is still be worn, of course, but the package may be visible.

How about a spa, or a gym, or a shelter for battered women? The setting does not matter. They are lots of places in life where a woman with a penis would not be welcomed and would be rejected from it (violently sometimes). Keeping the apendage does mean staying away a lot of intimate women's spaces... for now.
Frances,

I have been on hormones & living as a woman long enough now that when I wear a bikini I guarantee that noone
will ever see my 'package'. Just this weekend I was staying at a girlfriends place & I did change my skirt in front
of 3 other girls because I am comfortable & confident enough to disrobe down to my underwear now. I thought
you were talking about being completely naked in a change room. Our public showers & change rooms always
have private cubicles, so I have no issue about being naked there. If I walked into the Men's amenities I would
feel more uncomfortable & shock more people than I ever would using the Ladies. So why should I feel guilty &
like I have no privilege or rights to use women's amenities eh? And if someone wants to get violent with me about
it? Then I say "Bring it on!".

Aprilrain

07-05-2011, 06:41 AM

Now to my apparent desperation. What?!
I might be an attention *****, but I'm certainly not desperate for affirmation. I'm possibly a borderline narcissist, maybe a little full of myself, arguably full of crap but I am not desperate. Good lord, you may as well call me a dude.

sup dude.....lol

We're all full of crap honey!

mustlovedogs

07-05-2011, 06:56 AM

JulieK1980

07-05-2011, 08:27 AM

I believe all of you stating SRS is unnecessary simply want the option of easily returning to life FT in your birth gender, at any time for any reason. SRS makes it more difficult to do so.

Perhaps one of thousands of different reasons people decide not to have invasive surgery.

Being TS is not living between genders Why?

Being TS is not something you keep secret. I agree wholeheartedly.

To those of you offended by her words, the truth hurts. False assumption, based on false premise.

Aprilrain

07-05-2011, 08:29 AM

I believe all of you stating SRS is unnecessary simply want the option of easily returning to life FT in your birth gender, at any time for any reason. SRS makes it more difficult to do so.

Since this is an almost entirely mtf thread, I can't help but wonder how many wives of some posters know that their husbands are TS?

Being TS is not living between genders
Being TS is not something you keep secret.

Katesback is right and I agree completely with her. To those of you offended by her words, the truth hurts.

MLD

I'm a full time M2F TS I wouldn't return to that old life for anything if I had to i would probably just kill myself! I want SRS and if i had the means for SRS and FFS id do them both tomorrow however if i only had the money for FFS i would do that first and wait on the SRS. I do not agree with those who proclaim that one can not be TS unless they want SRS I know several woman who live full time who have had Orichy's or what ever the hell you call it and seem quite happy. They have been living this way longer than some of the Post ops posting here. One in particular that I am thinking of is one of the most passable TSes I know, she's not particularly pretty or really all the femme but no one would mistake her for a man. By contrast I have met quite a few dudes with pussies, personally I think its kinda sad but who am I to judge! So In this example the non op is fully assimilated in to society, To all the world she is a women only a select few people knows of her past or the status of her genitals. But yet the, more than a few, dudes with pussies I have met seem to have a very rough time of it.

I think the point is that each person gets to define who they are and according to the DSM one needn't want SRS to be considered TS, period. however everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Personally i just don't understand why some people are so adamant about an issue that no one in the "real world" gives a shit about. Frankly 90% of the population would consider ALL of us here freaks regardless of our pre, non or post op status.

Frances

07-05-2011, 08:43 AM

Frances,

I have been on hormones & living as a woman long enough now that when I wear a bikini I guarantee that noone
will ever see my 'package'. Just this weekend I was staying at a girlfriends place & I did change my skirt in front
of 3 other girls because I am comfortable & confident enough to disrobe down to my underwear now. I thought
you were talking about being completely naked in a change room. Our public showers & change rooms always
have private cubicles, so I have no issue about being naked there. If I walked into the Men's amenities I would
feel more uncomfortable & shock more people than I ever would using the Ladies. So why should I feel guilty &
like I have no privilege or rights to use women's amenities eh? And if someone wants to get violent with me about
it? Then I say "Bring it on!".

I am not saying that a woman cannot have a penis or a man a vagina. And I am not saying that one cannot function as a woman in society while having a penis. What I am saying is that a trans woman cannot fully integrate into the world of women with a penis. I thought my examples were enough, but I could think up way more from communal showers, to shelters for battered or raped women, saunas, spas, religious cleansing rituals, changing clothes in front of other women in casual settings other than stores, skinny dipping at music festivals in Michigan, nudist beaches, and even harems. If you feel compelled to keep clothes on at all times in front of women, then you are hiding something, and that is saying something in and of itself.

I am not a binarist by any means, and think that they are other ways of being a person, like I said, but some points on the spectrum equate living in the margins. More power to the people who feel comfortable there.
Regardless, my opinion regarding transsexuality is that a TS is not someone who wishes to remain in Trannyville, as Kate would put it.

Katesback

07-05-2011, 08:49 AM

Using the phrase "invasive surgery" sends the message that your NOT TS. Any TS would overlook the invasiveness to see corrective surgery. Yes it corrects a birth defect.

Perhaps one of thousands of different reasons people decide not to have invasive surgery.

Why?

I agree wholeheartedly.

False assumption, based on false premise.

JulieK1980

07-05-2011, 09:22 AM

Using the phrase "invasive surgery" sends the message that your NOT TS. Any TS would overlook the invasiveness to see corrective surgery.

You are welcome to your opinion.

Badtranny

07-05-2011, 09:32 AM

I believe all of you stating SRS is unnecessary simply want the option of easily returning to life FT in your birth gender, at any time for any reason. SRS makes it more difficult to do so.

What? Your opinion and you don't even know me. It's never entered my head for a second that I'm leaving the door open to return to living as a man. Hell no I've done my time.

Being TS is not something you keep secret.

Spoken by someone who doesn't even have a picture on their profile. Secrets? My life is posted all over the internet. I post pics of myself without makeup. Have you read anything I've written? I'm not exactly hiding anything.

Katesback is right and I agree completely with her. To those of you offended by her words, the truth hurts.
MLD

The truth hurts? What truth? What hurts? Her main premise is that I'm not a TS. That doesn't hurt me at all. Again, if I'm facing the adversity of transition in the "real world" then why would I be intimimidated by random people on a message board?

Badtranny

07-05-2011, 09:35 AM

You are welcome to your opinion.

It's okay Jody, welcome to the club.

Katesback

07-05-2011, 10:37 AM

Another interesting topic that we have not touched upon when it refers to the people that want to appear as a woman but have the penis. See they all to often cycle the hormones. What do I mean? Thats a really good question. I would not know this have I not had the opportunity to work with these people.

See the reality for some of these people is they want the female body but at the same time they want the penis. They want the penis to work!!! Yes they want it to work. Since the hormones that REAL TS girls take have a high probability of turning off the workings of the penis these people have to go to great measures to modify thier hormone intake. Often in conversations with these people the mere mention of taking hormones and the penis stops working brings a look of horror across thier face. Many will simply make a half hearted attempt at the hormones by skipping spiro and taking a low dose of estro. They often resort to pumping industrial grade silicon (Dont get me started in the results of pumping silicone for I have seen horror) into thier bodies when they realize that the hormone dose they take does not get them the female body.

One might ask why do they want the penis to work. Well some are in the porn industry and having a working penis and female body are a huge money maker in the porn industry. They might be prostitutes, another great way to make money when you look like a girl but have a penis. Others have ventured into the dating world with a penis and come to realize that TONS of men want them! Of course they dont really understand that the desire these men have is not healthy. These men see them as ********, Trannies, Chicks with DICKS, and a host of other wonderful phrases that the porn industry is littered with. Otherwise put they are a object of perversion that men have and something that can easily be put aside once the experience has been satisfied.

You have seen me write that Pre-op girls should not date. I have my reasons, pre-op is your time to learn to present to the world a woman but your NOT REALLY a woman yet. You cannot be a woman when you have a penis! Your in limbo. Is it any wonder than any pre-op girl that dates has a 90% something percent chance of failure. Thats because they not a woman yet. Your in traning stage! If you keep the penis your NEVER going to be a woman!

Another common reason to keep the penis is because the person is married. If theres a penis then the person is still a husband (male) so they will conceed to keep it. Some will get an orcie which is a cop op, but its as close as they dare to go because lord knows they dont want to loose thier wife. How scarry could that be?

In my work with these people virtually all of them called themselves transsexual. Yes inded they did. Virtually all of them said they did not want to have SRS. Virtually all of them had conversations that were similar to the conversations and points of view that I had with crossdressers.

In the end I can say these people had little in common with post-op and girls seriously on the path to SRS. I never sharred my personal views with these people because I was working in an official capacity but today I no longer do that. So now I can say. I belive that my view is sharred by the majority of post-op girls and that is that anyone who wants to keep thier penis is not TS. The girls that took the effort and put thier necks on the line to be as close to female as medically possible do not look favorably on people that want to group themselves into the same catagory as them but not do the work!

Katie

Katesback

07-05-2011, 11:08 AM

Your friend is truely a rare case. I would rather play the lotto.

As far as becomming a woman. Yes being TS is becomming a woman. Sure your a woman in your head but your not in the eyes of the world. That my dear is the journey a REAL TS is willing to take. She is willing to become a woman in the eyes of the world and take all the shit that comes with doing that. Because the process of becomming a woman in the eyes of the world is possibly the hardest thing a person can do it takes 100% effort. Baby steps, not wanting SRS, pondering for years and years, living life part time as a woman, waivering back and forth, compromising this 100% effort because one wants to stay married only leads to pain and suffering.
Perhaps this is why you have seen me say a person needs to make a decision they can live with and EXECUTE that decision.

Katie

Kate, this thread helped me see the core of some of your argument. Some of the core I agree with.

However, I don't believe one "becomes" a woman.

I also think you are painting men with a broad brush stroke when you say they are using Tgirls as an object of perversion. First, it objectifies transwomen, or however you would like to define them. Second, my BFF has been in a relationship for 12+ years with a wonderful man who has supported her through everything but the first 2 years of her transition. She is now 2 yrs post op and their relationship hasn't changed a bit.

Being TS is not about becoming a woman, it's about revealing her.

JulieK1980

07-05-2011, 11:40 AM

As far as becomming a woman. Yes being TS is becomming a woman. Sure your a woman in your head but your not in the eyes of the world. That my dear is the journey a REAL TS is willing to take. She is willing to become a woman in the eyes of the world and take all the shit that comes with doing that. Because the process of becomming a woman in the eyes of the world is possibly the hardest thing a person can do it takes 100% effort. Baby steps, not wanting SRS, pondering for years and years, living life part time as a woman, waivering back and forth, compromising this 100% effort because one wants to stay married only leads to pain and suffering.
Perhaps this is why you have seen me say a person needs to make a decision they can live with and EXECUTE that decision.

For many the execution of their decision is *gasp* different then you. Can't imagine why you are no longer working in an "official" capacity. You can argue what is, and what isn't all you would like. We all at this point know what your view is. That's fine. Good for you! However, myself and, (I'm sure many others) will continue back to the real world where everything isn't all nice and black and white for us. I do envy you in your ability to limit the world to simplistic views like that, however I'm unable to narrow my vision that much.

In all honesty though, your insistence that your way is right, and you know all, while appearing self pretentious, is looking a lot more at an attempt at self justification. I think you have some underlying regrets and worries over your path, and feel threatened by people that choose other paths. Every time someone disagrees with you, you feel the need to belittle them, and criticize them. Or perhaps it's not related to your transition at all, perhaps it's some other issue in your life that is leading you to "stagnation" instead of "generativity." Who knows.

In reality though, I hope you realize that most of us that take a different road than you could care less what you or anyone else thinks of OUR choices. If we are shunned by nearly all of society, what a few pretentious post-op transexuals think of us, isn't even going to register on our radar. More likely we will just feel sad for you, and hope that you can overcome your personal issues. I really see it as a shame. You probably do possess a wealth of information that could help countless people, but your own narrow vision negates the benefits of that information.

But, then what do I know, I'm apparently destined to be a star in porn as a she-male. Well, least the paycheck will be nice. :brolleyes:

Katesback

07-05-2011, 11:55 AM

Yes its the little green men that captured me and changed me into a woman against my will and forever I am in pain and suffering because I have a vagina and I really wanted to keep my penis because I could have been a ******* prostitute and make tons of money, get HIV/AIDS and live happily ever after. LOL

For many the execution of their decision is *gasp* different then you. Can't imagine why you are no longer working in an "official" capacity. You can argue what is, and what isn't all you would like. We all at this point know what your view is. That's fine. Good for you! However, myself and, (I'm sure many others) will continue back to the real world where everything isn't all nice and black and white for us. I do envy you in your ability to limit the world to simplistic views like that, however I'm unable to narrow my vision that much.

In all honesty though, your insistence that your way is right, and you know all, while appearing self pretentious, is looking a lot more at an attempt at self justification. I think you have some underlying regrets and worries over your path, and feel threatened by people that choose other paths. Every time someone disagrees with you, you feel the need to belittle them, and criticize them. Or perhaps it's not related to your transition at all, perhaps it's some other issue in your life that is leading you to "stagnation" instead of "generativity." Who knows.

In reality though, I hope you realize that most of us that take a different road than you could care less what you or anyone else thinks of OUR choices. If we are shunned by nearly all of society, what a few pretentious post-op transexuals think of us, isn't even going to register on our radar. More likely we will just feel sad for you, and hope that you can overcome your personal issues. I really see it as a shame. You probably do possess a wealth of information that could help countless people, but your own narrow vision negates the benefits of that information.

But, then what do I know, I'm apparently destined to be a star in porn as a she-male. Well, least the paycheck will be nice. :brolleyes:

Frances

07-05-2011, 12:10 PM

JulieK1980

07-05-2011, 12:19 PM

JulieK1980

07-05-2011, 12:39 PM

This is a decent thread, let's not let it come down to personal, off topic replies.

Kate, let's say a person realizes they are in the wrong body. It seems you are saying the day they realize this they should start fully presenting, world and consequences be damned.

These things take time. If you did it overnight, good for you. Never heard of anyone taking less than 3 years to complete electrolysis.

Quite honestly, the disagreement comes down to a semantic argument of definitions of words. What is or isn't TS. The person is still the person regardless, and what they choose is personal. I find it peculiar that there is this idea of a definitive rapid answer to transexuality. (Which incidently, contradicts modern medical/mental science.) The path a person takes is in essence, personal and individual. To say that all people should follow the same path, is (to me at least) laughable. Just this one single forum shows such a dramatic difference in people that it's odd to think there is a catch-all solution. Especially when it comes to life altering transition. For some transition has to be rapid, or there are deadly consequences such as suicide. For others, (and there is more than one instance) a person transitions rapidly, and is unhappy with the results which also sometimes ends in suicide. I honestly wish there was an easy solution for all, it would simplify the lives of everyone that is TG, nevermind just TS. But, there is not. What we have here is merely a conglomeration of sharply divided opinions. All of these opinions are based on the experiences of ONE person. It takes more than the experience of ONE person to say anything definitively. I don't mean to mock Kate's own experiences, but one has to question the motives behind such all assuming notions.

To answer what a TS is NOT: Well, a TS is apparently not definitive.

Frances

07-05-2011, 01:09 PM

All of these opinions are based on the experiences of ONE person. It takes more than the experience of ONE person to say anything definitively. I don't mean to mock Kate's own experiences, but one has to question the motives behind such all assuming notions.

Actually, most post-ops in this thread seem to be in agreement (more or less). There is no need to single out Kate as a villain. The notions are not assumed, but come from experience, which does not have much currency on this site and in the trans community as a whole.

Hope

07-05-2011, 02:01 PM

Katesback is right and I agree completely with her.

Hell, I have $10 that says you ARE her.

Ladies, can we stop feeding the troll?

JennyA

07-05-2011, 02:09 PM

I think too much importance is being laid on the penis. If a transitioning girl is out in public she is, unless on a nude beach, clothed and tucked.
When they encounter people in their daily travels they are presenting as a female and hopefully they have down a good feminine voice and female mannerisms. No one out in public is going to grab her in the crotch to inspect her status before interacting with her and frankly it shouldn't have any bearing on how she gets treated.

Why the push to label people into such specific boxes and smack rules and stipulations on it all? One thing we hope for when transitioning is to not be blindly judged, yet that's all we do to each other here at times.

Katesback

07-05-2011, 03:00 PM

I love how Hope, the person that claims to have put me on ignore is still taking pot shots at me and other people. Perhaps she is just upset because she wants to keep her penis but have the right to call herself transsexual. How special.

Kaitlyn Michele

07-05-2011, 03:38 PM

i did reload..and my shotgun is double barreled..LOL.. i don't like being called a dinosaur..i was basing my comments on your comments, i was unaware you were only targeting one poster, but you did call it a brigade...and yes an srs brigade, not the nicest way to say it, but i got that wrong...my bad

i don't think you are "not TS"... i have no say in the matter, nor do i want a say... but i am interested in the topic because I am totally looking at it the other way around..
I am saying that It is my position that IF you are TS, the need for expression of your gender will never go away until your body conforms... that is how i define ts...if you can live with this need for your life, then that doesn't mean you are not TS...it means you figured out another way...i could no longer live with that need...
I have said this over and over, and people still respond..so you are saying i'm not TS??
IF YOU ARE TS then..... is different than YOU ARE NOT TS BECAUSE......whether i am right or wrong in my thinking, it drives me nuts when i get that reaction..the fact that so many people feel attacked by seems to agree with the notion that many use communication as part of their validation and expression of gender..ie posting about what is ts?

Melissa, I am delighted for you , and i think you are very much on a good track for you at this time ..having your head on straight is much more important than most of us like to admit.. and mistakes made early on tend to resonate ..
i do think you are missing some things about transition that you are likely to see over time.. if you are TS, looking like a woman is going to end up being less than exciting, it's time consuming, expensive, and much less satisfying over time than you think..
you will still have work issues, and they may be worse because you are not getting surgery.. all the bad stuff happens whether you have a penis or not...and you will find out something is missing..it may take time, looking female is good as far as it goes, but i have found that despite passing and doing ffs, i can't look at my face without having male in my head sometimes....you will look great (i'm jealous of your looks..which is why you like me) but if you are ts, your body will still not match your gender..and it was the confirmation of my gender in my body that flicked the switch...and it was such a surprisingly powerful thing, that i continue to harp about it...and every single post op ts girl on this forum has said the same thing... your call whether you think its a grand conspiracy about tricking you into inverting your pickle

forgive me for repeating something, but you started a thread called what a ts is not...why? my answer is because you care about it...and it's likely because you suffer from a disconnect in your mind, and you have suffered a life where everyone looks at you as male, and we both know that sucks.....we don't want to suffer, we want to thrive, its a nice feeling when we feel we can thrive..
but you are planning to keep your male parts...this is basically the opposite of affirmation of your identity (IF you are ts)..but of course, like me, you need affirmation...and you started a thread about it...
btw pls let me take back the word desperation, i didn't mean that, it was mean to say,.....i was desperate to go to bed when i wrote it..

SO either you brought up a topic that you literally care nothing about (and i'm a sucker for being here at all), or you do care...which is it? you know what my answer is.....
btw there are lots of these threads...people seeking validation...if you are honestly here, searching for answers, then its quite likely you are ts...if you are not jerking off to the pictures, you are very likely ts...and it's quite likely you will benefit greatly from a gender confirmation surgery...expressing your nature through talking about it is comforting, but in the end its bullcrap.....have fun attacking kate for her blunt and sometimes cruel comments but this is the difference between the real world....here you can just say it....it's so easy....but in the end it will be cold comfort..i don't base that only on my experience..it is something i have seen over and over again..it sucks to hear if you think you've got it all sorted out..i know i didn't want to hear it when i looked at myself as a queer crossdresser

you do not see any postop girls posting..."am i ts?...what is ts to you? ..did i do the right thing? i had srs, and now i'm confused"...etcetc..we all post pretty much the same thing and as Frances says, the surgery works as advertised.
but it is devalued by the much larger group here that has not had surgery..

you brought up other ideas, basically that you are attention seeking, etc... these may be true, but there are lots of ways to indulge your narcissism and need for the spotlight than posting on a forum..

now i can't deny what you are saying about getting over having a penis...that is interesting and it makes sense..but being resigned to your male parts is different than wanting them..i'm sorry but actually wanting a penis is just ridiculous..

finally
i do not accept your comment on all the unhappy srs patients...i'm sure there are people that are not TS that somehow got caught up in rahrah I"m TS and they are sorry about it..there are people that should not have had the surgery or they got caught by religious people that shame them but we aren't talking about that crowd...

i am in an extended group of surgery/non surgery TS/CD people, tg people of all stripes.... i have been involved for many years... i am not aware of one single person with srs (30 of them?) that regretted the actual SRS.....
the surgery does what it is intended to do, the problems come when the patient expects more..
the regret i see are the folks that come in month after month, year after year.. whining about their dysphoria, wondering what to do, afraid of the risks, and wondering why no cares about their problem., and they say the same things over and to me it sounds like they are desperate, the regret i see is the 60 and 70 yr olds sitting there crying because they are so devastated they didn't do this before..

the only srs patients i know that complain/regret anything are those that regret transition in the first place...and they don't regret the wonderful feeling of confirmation..they just wish their transition turned out better, they regret either the choices they made in transition that negatively impacted their lives, or the unlucky/discriminatory things that happened to them post transition (usually because they had surgical complications or they don't pass or they were out and proud and they paid for it)..this frankly is a larger group, and many of us are surprised to end up in it and there is alot of bitterness and anger.. i hope i don't end up there...but its not about the srs.....

Katesback

07-05-2011, 03:59 PM

Perhaps this particular part of the forum should have a different title. Perhaps it should be titled "Crossdressers that think they are Transsexual". As a matter of fact I submit that to the moderator. It seems far more fitting. As Katlyn and the other Post-Op girls have said, many of you dont want to hear the harsh reality of life as it is. I myself am quite willing to offer my email address and possibly phone number if any of you need clarification. Furthermore I have a TON of pictures and video of me out in the real world living my life. I am beginning to wonder to what extent the people in this forum are actually even out of the closet at this point in thier lives. I mean really. Some of you honestly feel I am cruel, mean, a troll, and trying to discount you. I submit to you that many of your views are the same as what I would expect to see from a Crossdresser. Fantastical and not exactly realistic. As Katlin said she has seen so much disfunction and it comes from the people that arent willing to make a decision and execute it. Someone made a silly comment about why I no longer work for trans people. You could not pay me enough money to do that again! I could only take so much of the shit that I would hear. Chicks with dicks calling themselves transsexual out dating men and proud of it. Then comming to me crying because they got HIV/AIDS. Trans people telling me they were serious about transitioning but the backstory was they had been going to support groups telling this shit for 15 years and never doing anything but talking.

I once met a person that told me he was a cat. I stood there and said ok. My inner thought were "prove it". I doubt even some of the people here would agree that if someone told you they were a cat you would believe them. Now the same thing applies to you people that tell me your a woman. If you are a woman you need to prove it, because until you do I and the rest of the world wont believe you. Talk is cheap but actions are real!

Kelsy

07-05-2011, 04:28 PM

As Katlin said she has seen so much disfunction and it comes from the people that arent willing to make a decision and execute it.

I once met a person that told me he was a cat. I stood there and said ok. My inner thought were "prove it". I doubt even some of the people here would agree that if someone told you they were a cat you would believe them. Now the same thing applies to you people that tell me your a woman. If you are a woman you need to prove it, because until you do I and the rest of the world wont believe you. Talk is cheap but actions are real!

You tell it like it is and sugar coat nothing Kate and I appreciate it. It's shut up and put up! nothing else really counts!

Melody Moore

07-05-2011, 05:00 PM

Actually, most post-ops in this thread seem to be in agreement (more or less). There is no need to single out Kate as a villain.
I will say it once again hun...

SRS does not define you as a woman - SRS is the final step of affirmation & nothing more.

Once again my genitalia does not define me as a woman, I do not have to lift my skirt & drop
my underwear & prove I have an 'inny & not an outty' to earn my privileges & rights as a female.

And finally I just wanted to remind you that I am one person who does want my SRS, but just because I
might not be able to afford it & I am still pre-op, it doesnt make me any less transsexual or any less a woman.

I am starting to ready get sick of the arrogant attitude of some of the Post-op girls here who think they have
more rights & privileges & can 'lord it over' someone who is pre-op. Just remember girls, you were once boys too!

Frances

07-05-2011, 05:12 PM

And finally I just wanted to remind you that I am one person who does want my SRS, but just because I
might not be able to afford it & I am still pre-op, it doesnt make me any less transsexual or any less a woman.

We are in total agreement here. Maybe my English is not as good as I assumed.

Katesback

07-05-2011, 05:14 PM

Well you can read my analogy about the man that told me he is a cat. More importantly if you were walking down the street and a guy walked up to you and told you he was a woman. Would you believe him? Or how about if you were in the bathroom and a man walked in. You confronted him and he told you he was a woman. Would you believe him? I am sorry but I would not. Yes of course gender identity is between your ears. I have said that but that does not mean your transsexual if your gender identity does not match your appearance. The day you proclaim you are transsexual you had damm well better have the desire to eventually get SRS. If you dont your NOT transsexual. Transgender sure I will buy that.

I will say it once again hun...

SRS does not define you as a woman - SRS is the final step of affirmation & nothing more.

Once again my genitalia does not define me as a woman, I do not have to lift my skirt & drop
my underwear & prove I have an 'inny & not an outty' to earn my privileges & rights as a female.

And finally I just wanted to remind you that I am one person who does want my SRS, but just because I
might not be able to afford it & I am still pre-op, it doesnt make me any less transsexual or any less a woman.

I am starting to ready get sick of the arrogant attitude of some of the Post-op girls here who think they have
more rights & privileges & can 'lord it over' someone who is pre-op. Just remember girls, you were once boys too!

Melody Moore

07-05-2011, 05:32 PM

We're talking about a person who looks, feels, acts, sounds, smells, and appears in every way except one, as a woman. Unless you're their lover, you would never know.
Thank you, that was very well said - I have nothing more to add to this really in reply to Kate.

This answers exactly why that every-time I am out in public I am identified & respected as a woman
even if I am a pre-op transsexual. Once again Kate SRS does not make you a woman! The main part of
the anatomy that defines you as a woman is something found inside your head, not between your legs.

Kaitlyn Michele

07-05-2011, 05:51 PM

We are in total agreement here. Maybe my English is not as good as I assumed.

i thought your english was fine..

pls melody if you quote somebody at least try to have an understanding of what she said.. pls show me where frances said SRS defines you as a woman, or that you are somehow less of anything..

what you said in bold is perfectly true..

of course the next sentence could easily be..
who would not desire that affirmation? and that's what we are talking about..

Sophora

07-05-2011, 05:52 PM

Katesback

07-05-2011, 05:53 PM

I dont think shes going to get it. I have tried to tell her as have other people but she keeps going back to the gender identity in the head thing.

i thought your english was fine..

pls melody if you quote somebody at least try to have an understanding of what she said.. pls show me where frances said SRS defines you as a woman, or that you are somehow less of anything..

what you said in bold is perfectly true..

of course the next sentence could easily be..
who would not desire that affirmation? and that's what we are talking about..

Kathryn Martin

07-05-2011, 05:54 PM

This is one of the most fruitless debates of all times. I am TS. So what? How does that say anything about me other than that I experience myself as a woman in the biological body of a male. This body can be cosmetically altered so I can as an individual achieve the closest approximation in my appearance to what I am as is possible, and I am on track for that. The fact is that the construction of a vagina is the least of the procedures in terms of altering the biology of the body I was born with. Orchiectomy does more in that regard. The crowd that shouts you have to have surgery or die trying present a post est facto justification of their decision to complete this step towards the closest approximation they can achieve.

I know and have been so advised, that the surgery changes everything. Of course it does, but what it changes is NOT the fundamental biology or physiology of your body. It changes self perception and perception by others if they are lucky enough to to get to see the new hoohahs. The sooner everyone realizes this the sooner we are over this stupid, silly and ultimately boring debate about "proving" anything. I will be post -op probably by early spring next year, I know it will make a substantial, material and fundamental difference. But largely my female physiology to the extent it exists will continue to be created and maintained by hormones this body of mine cannot produce.

To the wannabe transsexuals I want to say this: transsexualism is a clearly defined condition, which includes the conviction that you are a woman born in a male body. The cure for it is unquestionably surgery and hormone treatment. The reason for surgery is an abhorrence and significant and material discomfort with biological organs of your body that make your body male. I similar abhorrence exists for those physiological functions of a male body that are considered secondary sex markers. If you prefer to retain your male organs then you are clearly gender variant and not transsexual unless very specific reasons prevent the major surgery, such as medical conditions that permit no surgery or complete inability to raise the funds. But frankly, I think funding is always a matter of time, because there is no real barrier if you want it enough. Just save until you are there.

I also don't think that post -op women are arrogant or lordly, they simply have been there done that. Does it make them better, NO! But it evidences their commitment to make themselves as close an approximation to the real woman as they can. And for that they deserve my respect and admiration.

Melody Moore

07-05-2011, 06:00 PM

Oh I would also mention, one of the reasons why I spilt up with my ex-girlfriend is because she did not want
to be in a lesbian relationship with me because she was going to be worried about what her family would think.
So what happened there eh, if I was really still 'the same old guy' between the legs & on the inside?

My ex-girlfriend was not ashamed to be seen with me, but not in any sort of intimate way. For
awhile there we had a very discreet lesbian relationship, In public we were like two females who
were just good friends because she didn't want to come out of the closet about her hidden bisexuality.

My ex-girlfriend even told me that she realised that she had been in a relationship with a woman the
whole time even when I was with her as a male. She came to the realisation that the things that
interested me & all my mannerisms, emotions & the way I thought was all typically feminine. I was
not interested in the typical male type activities & far from the norm of the average male.

So if my ex-girlfriend knows me so intimately & she know I still have my 'boy bits'
then why did she feel like she would be exposed as a lesbian if we stayed together?

Could it be that as a natal female who also knew me intimately, that she really seen me as another woman?

To the wannabe transsexuals I want to say this: transsexualism is a clearly defined condition, which includes the conviction that you are a woman born in a male body. The cure for it is unquestionably surgery and hormone treatment.
Very true Kathryn & I have already covered this in my original posts with the definition about what is a transsexual,
however the need to have your gender identity disorder 'cured' is not a pre-requisite of being a transsexual. Some
people cannot take hormones or have SRS for many reasons, but this still doesn't mean they are not transsexual.

Even some of those who keep their boy bits because they promised their partners are really lying to
themselves. If the relationship ends then there is a strong chance that if they are truly TS then they
will desire to have SRS, but that still doesn't mean that it will be possible. I really wish SRS was free.

Katesback

07-05-2011, 06:10 PM

Another interesting thing I noticed with people that claimed they were transsexual and did not have the money for surgery was all the material assest they often had. Yea I saw my fair share of them that had nice cars, pretty house, thousands of dollars in video games (video games seem to be the big thing with trans people, take me away to a different world), ect, ect.

Last time I checked SRS by competent doctors in Thailand starts around $10,000. Now add the airfare and hotel in and your still less than any decent economy car. So for many the money thing is not even an excuse if they really want SRS. Oh and spare me the argument that one has to go to Dr. Bowers because shes TS or the crap about going to a different country and how dangerous it is to get surgery there. Countless real TS women have gone to Thaland and come back happy.

Crap I paid more for FFS than I did for my entire trip to Thailand that included SRS, BA, and Lipo. Go figure.

Perhaps there really is some merrit in people like Hope suggesting I not be here. As time has gone by I like so many post-op girls have gotten tired of the insanity within the community. We actually made a decision and executed it and went on to live our lives as women. Perhaps I should just walk away from the trans community completely and entirely and leave them to fend for themselves. I really do like helping people but one cannot help someone whos glass is already full.

Zenith

07-05-2011, 06:31 PM

I've been amazed at this thread having such legs.

SRS is in fact a very profound change for a classic Harry Benjamin transsexual. It is a big deal to us.

That being said, in no way should it be encouraged for all cases. Some do better with FFS and becoming more socially integrated, while maintaining their current orgasmic genitals.

Kathryn Martin

07-05-2011, 06:31 PM

Kate, I can already foresee the day when moving on from the trans community is the right thing to do. I have found personal individual help a better solution and who wants to be stuck in a time warp.

Melody Moore

07-05-2011, 06:36 PM

ASo for many the money thing is not even an excuse if they really want SRS.
First of all Kate not everyone has those types of assets & is in that situation, but it still doesn't mean a person cannot
transition as far as they can. If I owned my home I wouldn't hesitate borrow some money because I could with assets
like that. But also you should try borrowing that type of money if you are on welfare payments & you have no job Kate.

There is a new TS girl in my group who is currently homeless & staying in a shelter & some in my group are claiming she
is not TS because she hasn't started to transition yet despite being in our support group now for a few months. But I
can understand why she hasn't started her transitioning yet, she has to get herself settled & in a place where she feels
comfortable & secure. But having said that she has already been given hormones but still hadn't started taking them &
I asked her why. But I think she was expecting sudden changes where others she stayed with in the shelter would notice.
So I told her that the changes wont happen suddenly of overnight & noone would even notice for a long time. But if she
continues in not take her hormones then we will question if she is truly transsexual & wanting to transition. But I am in
no position to determine if a person is or is not truly transsexual without fully understanding every aspect of their life &
that is something I don't see is entirely possible & really cannot judge.

Labels & Definitions are only a guide to help others know where they fit in the
transgender spectrum & should only be applied by one-self - NOT by others!

Bree-asaurus

07-05-2011, 06:42 PM

arbon

07-05-2011, 06:50 PM

I never sharred my personal views with these people because I was working in an official capacity but today I no longer do that.

Thank god.

Perhaps I should just walk away from the trans community completely and entirely and leave them to fend for themselves.

OK. Your about as graceful at helping people as you are at roller skating.

JulieK1980

07-05-2011, 07:01 PM

I think I may be moving away from this forum...

This forum was a great resource to me, and I met a lot of wonderful people here. However, there is too much BS, too much arguing, too much preaching, too much ignorance. I can have discussions with transexuals and non-transexuals in person over these same topics, and never see as much irrationality, or complete lack of just TRYING to listen and understand, as I see here.

Maybe I'm just temporarily frustrated... I don't know if it will drive me away forever... but I'm done with this thread...

Maybe I'll just put people like Katesback and Pamela on my ignore list...

I encourage you to stay, I've found many of your posts very enlightening and informative. I'm sure I'm not the only one. The arguing and BS is sadly a part of the internet culture here, and everywhere else. It's not always bad to disagree, sometimes a lot of information can be learned from healthy debate. From those that "troll" an ignore button is pretty solid solution. :)

pamela_a

07-05-2011, 08:16 PM

I think I may be moving away from this forum...

This forum was a great resource to me, and I met a lot of wonderful people here. However, there is too much BS, too much arguing, too much preaching, too much ignorance. I can have discussions with transexuals and non-transexuals in person over these same topics, and never see as much irrationality, or complete lack of just TRYING to listen and understand, as I see here.

Maybe I'm just temporarily frustrated... I don't know if it will drive me away forever... but I'm done with this thread...

Maybe I'll just put people like Katesback and Pamela on my ignore list...

Don't worry about it Bree. I can feel the love. In less than 2 weeks my pre journey will be done and I'm sure I won't want to stick around here any longer and deal with the abuse. I admit I fell into this category at times but the words are always true.

There are none so blind and those who will not see

JennyA

07-05-2011, 08:43 PM

So what of Ms. X. She is a full time transsexual with a great home operated small business. She is making money left and right and her transition is moving along swimmingly. She has her supply of hormones and is one big sale away from being able to set aside the cash for GRS.

Then in a horrible twist of fate her business product accidentally causes the death of one of her clients. She is sued for everything she ever had , down to the last dime. She has declared bankruptcy, lost her car, and is staying at a battered women's shelter for safety. Her financial bubble has burst and with the bankruptcy marring her credit, she can't afford the basics now such as rent, car, food. Her hopes of SRS are gone, she's not even sure how she is going to afford to get back on hormones.

If this Ms. X never has a chance to get the surgery done now please enlighten me as to how she is not transsexual?

It's just a nub of flesh that at some point was either going to form into a penis or a vagina. I for one do not want this penis, but I do not hate it and certainly don't let it define me. Rational genetic men and women don't define themselves by their genitals. That'd be like defining who you are inside by your muscles...and some men do that and people look at them as shallow and vain.

That being said, will I be doing everything in the next five years to get my SRS done? Yes I will. I will make it happen come hell or high water. But it's going to be because it is for me personally and not because I feel like I have to complete the operation to live up to a superficial label.

Katesback

07-05-2011, 09:19 PM

Do people read here? Is English the correct language. NOT ONE PERSON HERE SAID THAT someone had to get SRS to be transsexual. You need to go back and re read the whole point of the discussion because I have a feeling you lost focus!

So what of Ms. X. She is a full time transsexual with a great home operated small business. She is making money left and right and her transition is moving along swimmingly. She has her supply of hormones and is one big sale away from being able to set aside the cash for GRS.

Then in a horrible twist of fate her business product accidentally causes the death of one of her clients. She is sued for everything she ever had , down to the last dime. She has declared bankruptcy, lost her car, and is staying at a battered women's shelter for safety. Her financial bubble has burst and with the bankruptcy marring her credit, she can't afford the basics now such as rent, car, food. Her hopes of SRS are gone, she's not even sure how she is going to afford to get back on hormones.

If this Ms. X never has a chance to get the surgery done now please enlighten me as to how she is not transsexual?

It's just a nub of flesh that at some point was either going to form into a penis or a vagina. I for one do not want this penis, but I do not hate it and certainly don't let it define me. Rational genetic men and women don't define themselves by their genitals. That'd be like defining who you are inside by your muscles...and some men do that and people look at them as shallow and vain.

That being said, will I be doing everything in the next five years to get my SRS done? Yes I will. I will make it happen come hell or high water. But it's going to be because it is for me personally and not because I feel like I have to complete the operation to live up to a superficial label.

Aprilrain

07-05-2011, 09:59 PM

We are in total agreement here. Maybe my English is not as good as I assumed.

your english is fine

About this thread and what it has degenerated in to heres a thought who cares!
If you want SRS get it! if not don't if you want to call yourself a TS go ahead no one will stop you. if you don't like that someone calls themselves TS great! we are all entitled to our own opinions. if you want to date pre op have fun! use a condom. if you want to wait thats fine too. If you want to pee standing up great! but if its in my house you'd better be poking me with your thing! otherwise pee out side or sit down. If you want to think your a cat then you probably need psychotherapy, sorry but that is just weird.

Badtranny

07-05-2011, 11:21 PM

Yikes Kaitlyn you came loaded for bear this time.
I think it's easy to see why I like you and it has nothing to do with how adorable I may be. ;-) You may not have noticed, but you exhibit a lot more finesse than the rest of your team. I really don't have a problem with your position. You are certainly welcome to your feelings and opinions and they are every bit as valid as I claim mine to be. Perhaps more so in regard to SRS since I haven't any first hand experience to speak of. I never said SRS wasn't a worthy goal and I certainly never said it was unnecessary. I also never said that I WANTED my pickle. I said I have one, and I'm okay with it. We've come to an agreement.

What keeps my fingers clacking in this thread is the blatant attempt to minimize my struggle or my accomplishments simply because I reported that SRS doesn't happen to be a priority. Why? I don't know exactly, but right now I feel like my gender confirmation will come from being accepted as a woman by the outside world. If I had the vag right now, I doubt I would feel more womanly than I already do, but I know it wouldn't help me pass better. I'm not full time yet principally because I have another year left of hair removal and I don't want to be the bearded lady. Similarly, what advantage does being a dude with a hooha bring me? I've said it before, I may indeed go all the way someday. Is it killing me to have a dangler? Not at all, I made peace with that thing many years ago.

I don't see anyone devaluing the surgery, these girls are reacting to the rather rude assertion that they must FEEL a certain way in order to be considered "real". Kate's point wasn't what you do, it's what you WANT to do. I reject out of hand anybody's assertion that I feel one way or another about anything. I'll feel the way I feel and that's the end of it. The funny thing about out Trans people, is that we have decided that we will finally live our lives by our own rules and I don't care who thinks they know better, I will follow my bliss and create the life I see in my heart. There are people who support me, and people who don't. I find it much more productive to spend time with the positive people, life is hard enough as it is. Why would someone put arbitrary obstacles in their own way just to satisfy the whims of the self appointed guardians of whatever?

What exactly is Kate saying that I need to hear? That I'm not TS? It's been said over and over and I get it, the post-ops don't think I'm TS. Now what? I'm not arguing to get the tattoo. I'm arguing that I know I feel and how I've felt my whole life. Everything about me is feminine. I've wished I was born a girl since I can remember. I honestly don't know what that is supposed to make me but I'll be damned if someone else is gonna tell me who I am, I've done that already.

I was born this way, I never got to decide if this is what I wanted but I deal with it the best way I can. If someone doesn't like my style, what can I do? I am who I am. If you people want to marginalize or negate me, I'm sure you'll understand if I'm not impressed. Show me something I haven't seen already.

Badtranny

07-05-2011, 11:29 PM

Perhaps I should just walk away from the trans community completely and entirely and leave them to fend for themselves.

This comment says everything. It's stunnning in its arrogance.

Zenith

07-06-2011, 12:26 AM

Melissa if you aren't even full time, as you state, then you have much to learn. SRS indeed makes our way in the world and our self image better...

Katesback

07-06-2011, 12:41 AM

Melissa it is totally ok for you to want to be a chick with a penis. It is ok for you to think you can date STRAIGHT men. It is ok for you to say your transgender. It is ok for you to want to live the way you wish. What is not ok is for you to call yourself transsexual (or a woman for that matter) if you are not willing to do what it takes to ACTUALLY be one.

Crossdressers go to great lengths to present to the world this image of a woman, but that does not make them a woman. A woman is born a woman and women dont have penises. A woman with a penis is going to want to correct that because its NOT supposed to be there. I assure you that that any woman including a transsexual that became aware of your desire to present a woman but keep your peinis is NOT going to be seen as a woman.

Come to think of it a cis woman could say that post op girls are not women because they dont have ovaries and a uterus. Well I tell you what if they invented the ability to have those I would be in line! I would do it because thats what being a woman is.

Katie

Beth-Lock

07-06-2011, 01:43 AM

No One Definition of Transsexual

What I was trying to say, in a nutshell, is that there is probably no one definition of transsexual that fits all cases. This is a twentieth century insight in philosophy. I think paying attention to this would resolve some of the conflicts here.

Starling

07-06-2011, 03:33 AM

I'm getting dizzy.

:) Lallie

Melody Moore

07-06-2011, 04:04 AM

LALady, you are not alone :worried:

What keeps my fingers clacking in this thread is the blatant attempt to minimize my struggle or my accomplishments simply because I reported that SRS doesn't happen to be a priority. Why? I don't know exactly, but right now I feel like my gender confirmation will come from being accepted as a woman by the outside world. If I had the vag right now, I doubt I would feel more womanly than I already do, but I know it wouldn't help me pass better.
Melissa, you made some very powerful points here & ironically a few people here arguing against you
have also preached this very same philosophy to others here on this forum. In fact some of the post-op
girls here claim that transitioning really only happens after SRS. But I beg to differ because the biggest
part of transitioning is in accepting yourself for who you truly are & like you said, the great confirmation
comes when the outside world accepts you as a woman.

Something else I come to realise about my own transitional journey is the fact that I started living
full-time as a female before I started on hormones whereas not many others ever transition this way.
Most transsexuals I know go on hormones for a period of time then transition. So it's a bit like you Mel,
I wanted to feel at ease & comfortable & have that affirmation from the outside world that I would be
accepted as a woman to help me know that I was making the right decision. So this is why I choose the
unusual path of living full-time as a female before starting any type of life changing treatment or surgery.

There is no defined path or rules to follow in transitioning & we all have our hurdles to overcome along the way.
But as far as I am concerned Melissa, I believe that you are a transsexual woman regardless of what other people
say because you have had a gender identity disorder all your life & also have a genuine desire to be a 'woman' who
doesn't care what is between your legs. I just wish I could be so content about extra 'dangly bit'.

My enlarged & oversized clitoris has caused me an extreme amount of discomfort all my life & I would so like to get it
reduced in size & to have my vaginal canal reopened, but they don't cover any of this under the public health system
here in Australia. So my only option is SRS over in Thailand. So unless Kate is willing to donate me the money, then I
don't see exactly when I can get my SRS. Because at this point of time I don't have a job & any means to raise revenue
& come up with the funds.

Additionally I think Kate should also check the cost of SRS in Thailand because most surgeons have put up their prices
because of the collapse of the US dollar. To me SRS is very important & I want it done right because you only get one
shot at this. So the only way I am going to have SRS is with the surgeon I choose because of their expertise in SRS/GRS
& not because they had the best deal. Also I believe that Dr Suporn now charges around $17,500 US & then there are
airfares & accommodation to also pay for, bringing the total cost up to about $22,000 for SRS/GRS in Thailand.

So Kate, being as rich as you are then you would have that amount of money laying around your mansion
in loose change yeah? So maybe you wouldn't mind helping by paying for my final affirmation surgery yeah?
especially since you believe that all women like me who were born with penises like me should have SRS yeah?

:daydreaming: :heehee: :D

JennyA

07-06-2011, 05:47 AM

Do people read here? Is English the correct language. NOT ONE PERSON HERE SAID THAT someone had to get SRS to be transsexual. You need to go back and re read the whole point of the discussion because I have a feeling you lost focus!

Yes being TS is becomming a woman. Sure your a woman in your head but your not in the eyes of the world.

I have to say one thing. If someone has no desire to have SRS then they ARE NOT TS. If they dont have the means to have SRS then I can take that but if someone wants to be a girl with a penis they sure as hell are not TS!

Not one person except you, more then once. ....phew....and here I was thinking I couldn't read my native language anymore.

Sara Jessica

07-06-2011, 08:43 AM

NOT ONE PERSON HERE SAID THAT someone had to get SRS to be transsexual.

Oh yeah?

I think you have said just that...

Melissa it is totally ok for you to want to be a chick with a penis...What is not ok is for you to call yourself transsexual (or a woman for that matter) if you are not willing to do what it takes to ACTUALLY be one.

You have defined what it means to be a woman to suit your life situation and have used this OPINION to marginalize those who may be on a different path.

Newsflash Kate, there are MANY out there in the cis-world who would argue that YOU are NOT a woman, and for that matter, that none of us are. It doesn't matter what's in our heads and hearts, nor what hormones might be injected into us. Surgery, in their opinion, doesn't make a woman. None of this does because at the end of the day we're all a bunch of messed-up-in-the-head individuals who need to obtain a reality check rather than a vagina.

With so many haters out there who believe such things, why on Earth is it so important for you to spread such a similar brand of intolerance? Even worse is that it's under the guise of helping those who are on the true path towards womanhood (hmmm, sounds like a pattern that can be seen elsewhere in society, eh?).

Accepting a given, that most, if not all of us participating here fit the DSM IV criteria to be considered TS (a basic commonality that we share), each of us has a unique set of life circumstances which then goes to define the path that we take from here on out. Melissa's situation is unique and she owns it. Gosh knows Melody's is as well, as is all of ours including those who may be on a more traditional path towards SRS. And speaking for myself, I have created a family which demands that I stay on a middle path, one that I have to accept for the sake of all concerned regardless of the fact that my own struggle can often be measured by the minute or hour. So perhaps that puts me on a lower rung on your trans totem pole but guess what? When all is said and done there is little else that defines a woman more than putting the needs of others before your own needs.

Yet I'm not going to run around telling everyone that I am a woman, even though what resides in my head and heart is nothing but. That'd be low hanging fruit, even for you Kate. But I'll be darned if I'm going to sit back and accept your definition that anyone on a path remotely similar to mine, or anyone who chooses not to pursue SRS, is nothing but a glorified crossdresser. Last I checked, the DSM-Kate has yet to be adopted.