Nature vs Nurture? Is CDing genetic, or learned (or both!)

[retrofitme]

I was raised in a single parent home. Though my father and I have a decent relationship now, when I was growing up, he just wasn't in the picture. My mom did an excellent job of raising me.

I wonder sometimes if there had been a strong male role model in the house, would I be less likely to CD? Or (from the opposite spectrum) would I be more secretive/closeted/ashamed about CDing, but still feel just as compelled to do so?

I have noticed in myself that I have some mannerisms that seem feminine to me - just little things like how I hold a coffee cup or how I stand sometimes. Did I learn these mannerisms from my mom, or is it genetic? It's hard to tell.

On the flip side, I have lots of mannerisms from my dad as well, that are clearly not learned because I had no opportunity to learn them. They are purely genetic (it's actually kind of amusing sometimes how alike our demeanors are). That said, I can't discount entirely the nurture aspects either - kids learn tons from us.

Maybe what I need to consider is that, as I am neither 100% masculine, nor am I 100% feminine; so too is it with my parents. They are a mix of traits as well, and I was handed both M and F traits from each of them. Hmmm, I'll have to ponder that one (you may ponder with me).

-Retro

[ricci]

Good question. My father and my older brother were strong male role models. Sometimes I wonder how much more feminine I would be without them.
When I was little, i wanted to dress and be like my mother and my father.
I used to have lots of feminine mannerism that my brother used to "correct". As he got older I have noticed he has loosened up his macho act a lot. And so have I.:heehee:

[VioletJourney]

Both. The most widely accepted theory in modern psychology is that we have genetic tendencies which are shaped by the environment into specific behaviors.

[sissystephanie]

I became a crossdresser because I tried on a pair of my sisters rayon panties and became hooked!! My Mother died when I was only 7 and my Dad died when I was 14. I believe I did get some genetic tendencies from him, but probably also got a few from my mother! But I would have to go along with what Violet said about the environment shaping things. For the most part, I believe crossdressing is learned!!

BTW Reto, you have beautiful feet, but can you walk in those shoes??

[danielle40I]

I used to try to reason why I was doing something that society, for the most part, finds disconcerting at best. Why was I acting like this, spending hard earned money on things that would be percieved as frivilous and, by some, deviant? I suppose with age comes acceptance, without dwelling on the "why" and instead, loving the "is".

[Sophie86]

I wonder sometimes if there had been a strong male role model in the house, would I be less likely to CD?

My dad was a very good model of exactly the type of man I didn't want to be. Not wanting to be like him was a conscious choice though. It wasn't genetic.

[retrofitme]

...BTW Reto, you have beautiful feet, but can you walk in those shoes??

I'm learning to! I've found leg muscles I didn't know I had wearing those heels. :)

[Anne2345]

The most widely accepted theory in modern psychology is that we have genetic tendencies which are shaped by the environment into specific behaviors.

I am not well-schooled on the psychology of nature versus nature. However, recently, I wrote about my initial "awakening" when I was three and half years old. An aunt of mine painted my toes with a red polish. I loved it! It was a wonderful experience that I remember quite vividly even today. Shortly thereafter, I began trying on a younger sister's clothes. Since the clothes were too small of a size for me, one evening I was unable to remove a shirt. My mother removed it, punished me for wearing it, warned me never to wear my sister's clothes again, and that it was wrong to do so. Boys simply do not wear girls clothes!

My father was a very strong male role model and influence. He raised me to be an athlete. Football, basketball, etc. The stakes were high, and he was deadset serious about me being successful in athletics. There was no hint of "girlieness" in how he raised me.

As society slowly dug its claws into my psyche as I grew up, and tainted how I viewed myself, and my desire to express my feminine side, I began to hate myself for who I was. I fought against the urges and the need. I felt I was broken. And yet, I could not stop. The more I dressed, the more despondent I became. I did not want to be a crossdresser. I did not want a feminine side. It took me many years to come to terms with this, and accept it for what it is - a wonderful gift!

With the exception of my aunt painting my toes, I know of no other instances within my development where this side of myself has been developed (with the exception of my wife's acceptance of me). Certainly, I believe that nurture can play a role in crossdressing. But for me, I have to lean towards nature.

[Kate Simmons]

CDing is an inherent skill many have by virtue of their individual DNA grid program. It can either be developed or ignored, that is the choice WE make.:)

[Joanne f]

I think it has to be in your nature to start with and then if you allow yourself to accept it you start to nurture it .

[ReineD]

My personal opinion: both.

Speaking strictly of CDers here and not TSs, I think first there has to be a predisposition (nature) to explore it. Also I think that the method of exploration that is most significant, during the teenage years when it is intensely sexual (nurture) for most CDing males, causes some brain connections to be made that last a lifetime. It's almost like the intense connections that people make when they first fall in love. A bonding takes place that survives the test of time, even after all these intense sexual feelings about one another calm down after many years.

I've often wondered if the majority male CDers (and not TSs) who did not experience any sexual gratification over the dressing as teenagers/young men, if there would have been as serious an interest to present as a woman going into the later phases of adulthood.

On the subject of having some feminine mannerisms, this varies among people whether or not they feel the need to cross the gender lines. I know a female phys-ed teacher who is decidedly more on the masculine side in the way she walks, talks, and dresses, yet she is happy in her female gender. I also know some men who are more feminine in their absence of interest in stereotypical pursuits such as sports and cars, who care about the "finer" things in life, who even sit or manipulate eating or drinking utensils in the same way a woman might (maybe they are more dexterous or their mothers were rigid with table manners), yet they are solid in their male genders.

[Eryn]

I was raised in a single parent home. Though my father and I have a decent relationship now, when I was growing up, he just wasn't in the picture. My mom did an excellent job of raising me.

I wonder sometimes if there had been a strong male role model in the house, would I be less likely to CD? Or (from the opposite spectrum) would I be more secretive/closeted/ashamed about CDing, but still feel just as compelled to do so?

I think that the latter is likely. I had that strong male role model and I think that it did push me back into the closet to the point where it prevented my understanding and acceptance of myself for a very long time.

Please understand that I don't blame my father at all for this. He did a good job of parenting and never directed me away from CDing. CDing was just so far away from the example he set (think of John Wayne in The Shootist) that I didn't consider it to be in my spectrum of possiblities.


I've often wondered if the majority male CDers (and not TSs) who did not experience any sexual gratification over the dressing as teenagers/young men, if there would have been as serious an interest to present as a woman going into the later phases of adulthood.

Hmm, considering the testosterone-laced nature of adolescence and young adulthood, I think it is next to impossible for any young hetero male to have contact with things feminine without arousal. Touch pantyhose-->Think of women-->Get aroused--->Dot, dot, dot. There may be exceptions, but they would be candidates for the priesthood!


...I also know some men who are more feminine in their absence of interest in stereotypical pursuits such as sports and cars, who care about the "finer" things in life, who even sit or manipulate eating or drinking utensils in the same way a woman might (maybe they are more dexterous or their mothers were rigid with table manners), yet they are solid in their male genders.

My father was one of the most masculine people I knew, a rancher and a Diesel mechanic, but he made very sure that I knew what to do with each implement at the table. I think that this was more a product of the era than of gender roles.

[Stephanie Miller]

Neither. I think we were brainwashed! Yep, that's it. Because females mature faster than the normal male, they are obviously more suseptible to suggestion. Therefore it is MY conclusion that CD's/TS's fall into that same inteligent and faster maturity than regular males and therefore......... are more suseptible to. Ta Da. Figured it out.
I mean really, they got us coming and going. What little boy didn't want to be a fireman when growing up?
(Now, where did I put my tin foil hat?)

[wino_tg_girl]

If being from a single parent (mother) home did it, then there would be a lot more girls like us. It's disgusting how many single moms there are. I'm from a single parent home and am a crossdresser, but I don't really think it is the cause. Sometimes I feel more like a girl than a guy. I love makeup and fashion. It thrills me emotionally and sexually to look pretty. I'm attracted to females only. I'm a non-traditional male who loves to crossdress. That's just who I am. I simply have a more female brain genetically.

[Sophie86]

My father was a very strong male role model and influence. He raised me to be an athlete. Football, basketball, etc. The stakes were high, and he was deadset serious about me being successful in athletics. There was no hint of "girlieness" in how he raised me.

But couldn't that very attempt to "make a man out of you" have had the opposite effect? In my own life, I've identified two ways I think that might have played out. One is that it turned everything associated with girlishness into forbidden fruit, and we all know how tasty forbidden fruit is. The other is that it made dressing up feel like an escape from the pressure of being male.



Neither. I think we were brainwashed!

Hey don't sell that idea short. I remember going through the Sears catalog with my sister playing a game we called "Pick". She would turn the page, and we would each quickly pick which female model we thought was the prettiest. She would always stop the game when we got to the underwear ads, so of course, I'd have to go look at those on my own.

[Cynthia Anne]

I have no reason to beleive that it had anything to do with the way I was raised! As Anne explained what took place when she was three and a half and then how she was raised is almost identical too my life! Nature works wonders!

[SweetIonis]

My personal opinion: both.

Speaking strictly of CDers here and not TSs, I think first there has to be a predisposition (nature) to explore it. Also I think that the method of exploration that is most significant, during the teenage years when it is intensely sexual (nurture) for most CDing males, causes some brain connections to be made that last a lifetime. It's almost like the intense connections that people make when they first fall in love. A bonding takes place that survives the test of time, even after all these intense sexual feelings about one another calm down after many years.

I've often wondered if the majority male CDers (and not TSs) who did not experience any sexual gratification over the dressing as teenagers/young men, if there would have been as serious an interest to present as a woman going into the later phases of adulthood.


That's an interesting response. I know for me I had little interest in girl things growing up. But I remember, right around the start of puberty, something made me put on a pair of panties. I think it was totally out of curiosity. But it totally amazed me the feeling. It was so far out, but not often, but every now and then I would put on a pair just to reproduce that feeling. Later on as an adult, I actually went out and bought an outfit. The results really amazed me.

Any rate, just ramblin. This is a tough question. It will be interesting to see how all of you grapple with it.

[Samantha43]

I think in my case it must be genetic. I was raised in the ideal American family....Leave it to Beaver comes to mind.... I had wonderful parents. My dad was my role model. I was his only Son and we did everything together. I hope I have been as good a father and man as he was.

I have been driven to wear feminine clothing since a very young age. I can't believe that it was a learned trait with him being such a positive role model in my youth.

[Schatten Lupus]

It is both, like many things in life. However a better question is which degree of each effects us.

[sissystephanie]

I think in my case it must be genetic. I was raised in the ideal American family....Leave it to Beaver comes to mind.... I had wonderful parents. My dad was my role model. I was his only Son and we did everything together. I hope I have been as good a father and man as he was.

I have been driven to wear feminine clothing since a very young age. I can't believe that it was a learned trait with him being such a positive role model in my youth.

Samantha, I would have to believe that you being a CD was a learned trait, and not at all genetic. You stated that you had been "driven to wear feminine clothes" since a very young age. What drove you? It wasn't your mom or dad! Maybe a sister? I'm guessing it was the feel of those clothes on your body! That is learned, not anything you had genetically! Of course, I could be way off base, but I really don't think so! I have been a CD for way too long!! BTW, you really are a sexy lady!!

[sarahNZ]

Both. The most widely accepted theory in modern psychology is that we have genetic tendencies which are shaped by the environment into specific behaviors.

I was watching an interesting time sudy of children last night, and they seem to think that ones self awarenes starts to blossom at around the age of 2, and the many life factors eg family happyness, percieved equality can start to come into play.

I know in my experience it was about this age that my sister started putting me in her clothes for fun, bluring my perseption of gender. (Just to be clear I don't actually remember the events conciously, but mum still has the photos to prove it.) Not long after then I discovered that girls get treated diferently than boys, eg it was always me (the boy) that was told off and punished even when my sister started it! Or sis brike my toy so I broke hers... who do you think caught the blame?! Of course "it was better to be a girl"

Grown up a few more years and Dad found the door so now my only role models were Mum and Sis, by age 10 I knew more about being a woman than being a man (hell one of my barrack mates had to teach me how to shave my face properly although I already know how to shave my legs without getting cut, what does that say?)

[Samantha43]

Samantha, I would have to believe that you being a CD was a learned trait, and not at all genetic. You stated that you had been "driven to wear feminine clothes" since a very young age. What drove you? It wasn't your mom or dad! Maybe a sister? I'm guessing it was the feel of those clothes on your body! That is learned, not anything you had genetically! Of course, I could be way off base, but I really don't think so! I have been a CD for way too long!! BTW, you really are a sexy lady!!

Hi Stephanie. I was driven and had the desire to wear feminine clothing since I can remember. I never acted on it until I was a teenager. My sisters are several years younger than me, so they didn't have an influence. Once I tried the clothes on and felt them on my body I was hooked, but the desire was there way before then. I really don't believe it was a learned trait in my case. Thanks for the compliment!

[JenniferR771]

Mysterious question. The best proof of this is to examine twin boys, (genetically alike). If any cases occur where one is a crossdresser and the other is not--then it is not genetic--in the usual sense. And what happens if a woman who has several cd brothers...marries a crossdresser. Will there be crossdressers in their offspring? It is near impossible to study this due to the secrecy and reticence of the crossdressing population.

Gay men are also baffling when one tries to study the cause. Since gay men seldom reproduce, gayness cannot be genetic. And yet--in twin brothers there is a 40 percent concordance in sexual orientation. (See Wikipedia).

And what happens if a gay man marries a gay woman? (Not much of course).

[SweetIonis]

And what happens if a gay man marries a gay woman? (Not much of course).

LMAO!!! GOOD ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was great!!!

[Sarasometimes]

I believe it is nature and some nurture. We all start out female and based on the amount of estrogen we are exposed to during early gestation we may become males. My belief is that I was exposed to a level of estrogen that result in me being male but on the feminine side of that gender. Think of a number line and macho is at one end and girly girl is at the other. I'm on the girly girl side enough to want to express my gender identity by crossdressing. My belief.

[Tara D. Rose]

It was so very confusing to me. I don't know if it was learned or genetics or inheritance. I do know that after a shower as young as 4 and 5, I would wrap the towel around my waist and I remember many times pretending that I was one of my attractive aunts. Then later on around the ages of 6 through 9, for halloween, I would always dress as a girl, and went to halloween parties as a girl. I would wear my sister's clothes and the feeling was awsome, but I never said anything about how it made me feel at that time. It all did seem so natural for me tho. The boys in school would always say, you look like a girl, or you throw like a girl, etc. I had to work hard at walking, and talking, more masculine things to be like my peers at the time. I knew I was supposed to be a guy, but why did I feel so different inside I wondered through all the years? And now, I understand that this is me, having to hide my feminine side from the world......love & respect....Tara

[SweetIonis]

The other is that it made dressing up feel like an escape from the pressure of being male..

That's an interesting concept. Not only with that scenario, but that may be applicable in a more general sense. Never really thought about it like that.

[Sarah Jayne]

I read an article a while back about the increasing likelihood of boys being born into large families being gay. I am the youngest of 4, not a huge family, but 2 brothers and a sister. I have always believed I should have been a girl and my sister left some excess X chromosome that I have been growing into ever since. What I find weird is that in my genetic male persona I am heterosexual and am 100% attracted to women - just ask my gf, but as Sarah Jayne, I am 100% drawn to males and dream of being made love to - does anyone else experience this?

[Pink Person]

I believe that whole-life sex hormone exposure is the primary cause of all variations in sex, gender, and sexuality in the human population. This means that gender variation is natural and biological but not primarily or directly genetic. The sex hormones that our bodies produce are influenced by genetic factors, but the sex hormones that determine fetal development and mature growth often come from external sources.

It’s also true that people learn to perform their gender expressions to some extent, but I don’t believe that learned behavior is the primary cause of gender variation.

[Elsa Larson]

I was fortunate to see a presentation on Brain Gender Identity by Dr. Sidney W. Ecker, M.D., F.A.C.S.
Dr. Ecker believes that all gender-variant behavior is all part of a single transgender continuum.

The exact mechanism by which we become transgendered has yet to be found. Perhaps it is a genetic combination, perhaps epigenetics, maybe both. Reasearch IS being conducted.

http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/05/brain-gender-identity-presentation-by.html

[dawnmarrie1961]

My opinion: NOPE. I won't play the "blame game". Everything in life is a matter of choice and while there may be factors both external and internal that cause a predispostion to a certain type of behavior the fact remains that the decison to endulge, or manifest it, is always our responsibility.
I am who I am because I want to be. Not because someone or something made me to be this way.
How can one accept who they are if they refuse to take responsibility for themselves?

[TGMarla]

Ah, the ol' "Nature vs Nurture" debate! I think both have something to do with it. Many crossdressers suggest that they have been this way since they can remember. And while this is somewhat unrelated in many ways, many gay people say they were born that way.

But I didn't start crossdressing until I was 12. So was I born this way, or did I learn it? I know that once I slipped on a pair of pantyhose, I was hooked. I remembe always being fascinated with the way women dressed as opposed to men. But until then I had not really considered dressing myself that way. And I learned a whole lot about crossdressing as time went on. So much of this behavior is learned.

But looking back on things, and considering that I'd always found myself drawn to skirts and dresses, lacy clothing, and all the rest, I have to conclude that I was born with a tendency to want to wear this stuff, and I learned more of this behavior as I grew older.

I vote for both.

[SweetIonis]

The other is that it made dressing up feel like an escape from the pressure of being male.


Had a chance to think about this some more. At first I thought it might be applicable in a more general sense, but as I think back, as a boy I never felt any pressure to be a male. I was just that way. I enjoyed being with my father and older brother. They were some of the happiest days of my life. The only pressure I can remember was when I was an adolescent and being attracted to girls and trying to talk to them. Then I think I felt some pressure to project some sort of inflated image of what I thought a man should be.

I think about how I feel now, and I don't feel any specific pressure to be a man. The pressure that I do feel is the general pressure of survival. But I think that would be there, even if I was a woman. For me, I think it can provide some release in that it's something that I find to be pleasurable.

Any rate, I said all that to say that after thinking about it, at this time, I can't see how it can be applied in a general sense.

[Lorileah]

When a person is worried about something they believe is unusual or even "bad" they start to rationalize why this happens. Nature and nurture surely have a place in some behaviors. Nature can give you abilities like being a pro-level athlete or musician but nurture would be needed to make these abilities work. On the flip side it is not common for someone to be "nurtured" in an ability that nature didn't have a strong influence on. So at best I would think your mother may have honed your style but not your desire. I have a very strong male role model in my father. Sometimes I envy the fact that he is so male. My younger brother followed that path. I went toward the effeminate and my middle brother is a masculine gay. I don't believe that we were nurtured any differently.

I will stick with you is what you is by nature and maybe directed a bit by nurture.

[Sue101]

It certainly is not genetic as patterns could be easily traced within family trees. There are no patterns to crossdressing, it occurs on an individual level.

It is not nuture for TSs because they have a gender identity issue from the get-go. That does not necesarily mean they were born that way as this an identity issue and is most likely to develop during the first two years of development when self-awareness develops.

However most CDs develop in later childhood and some well into adulthood. This strongly implies it is a psychological need driven by gender dysphoria - a lack of connection and therefore contentment with your given physical gender. This leads CDs to explore the escapist fantasy that we could transform ourselves into girls thus relieving ourselves of the problems associated with being a boy.

Saying that, those who develop the dressing habit around or after puberty are quite likely just exploring sexual feelings, and with actual sexual encounters out of the question, use female undergarments for their highly symbolic sexual meaning and get hooked that way.


I've often wondered if the majority male CDers (and not TSs) who did not experience any sexual gratification over the dressing as teenagers/young men, if there would have been as serious an interest to present as a woman going into the later phases of adulthood.

I seriously doubt it for those who developed before puberty. Crossdressing is for the most part just a growing up difficulty which is solved by escapism into the opposite gender. Most people would get over those issues by adulthood and deal with it just like any other issues relating to skin color, religion, social-economic background etc. The sexual/emotional high CDs obtain from the fantasy creates a compulsive behavior which in time becomes an integral part of the personality. This is the main reason why tomboys and crossdressers turn out so differently as tomboys never develop a compulsive behavior.

[steph1964]

In my case I don’t think my cross-dressing was nurtured. I remember my sister putting me in her dress once while I was very young, but other than that I lived in what I perceived as a very unaccepting environment. My father was a strong role model and, although loving, growing up I felt that he would not have accepted it at all. He has become more accepting as he has aged, but I still don’t know how he would react if he knew. I went to a Catholic school and received a large dose of the accompanying guilt that even if you think it, then it is a sin. So other than my family and kids at school, I had to worry about GOD disapproving.

I can’t think of any nurturing but can think of an enormous amount of guilt and fear that would prevent me from having any benefit to dressing. But I still would sneak into my sister’s room and dress up when no one was home. I don’t think it was the forbidden fruit as I avoided getting in trouble at all costs…I didn’t have the forbidden fruit personality.

My personal opinion: both.

Speaking strictly of CDers here and not TSs, I think first there has to be a predisposition (nature) to explore it. Also I think that the method of exploration that is most significant, during the teenage years when it is intensely sexual (nurture) for most CDing males, causes some brain connections to be made that last a lifetime. It's almost like the intense connections that people make when they first fall in love. A bonding takes place that survives the test of time, even after all these intense sexual feelings about one another calm down after many years.

I've often wondered if the majority male CDers (and not TSs) who did not experience any sexual gratification over the dressing as teenagers/young men, if there would have been as serious an interest to present as a woman going into the later phases of adulthood.

Not in my case. My older sister only grew to 4’10” so I quickly grew too big for her clothes. I also moved as a young teenager and was trying very hard to fit in, pretend I wasn’t a freak (no access to resources for a 13 year old in the late ‘70s, and a lot negative stereotypes) and tried to suppress the feelings. I thought about it a lot, but without access to clothing, and with a lot of denial, I don’t ever remember it being involved in sexual gratification. But as a teenage boy, the change in the wind direction can set you off so who knows.

In my very uneducated opinion, I don’t think that it is genetic in the way that we have cross dressing DNA, and that it would be passed on to future generations, but more that it is likely produced while the brain is developing in the womb. There are a lot of hormones involved which affect how the brain and body develop. Nature doesn’t always produce as planned so the wrong hormones at the wrong time could produce a whole variety of results.

I have also seen that there are many members of this forum who didn’t have the desire until later in their life, so I think that just as we are all very different, there are probably several different causes that have the same end result. A type of convergent evolution, like bats and birds. Both ended up with wings, but both evolved in a completely different manner.

[SweetIonis]

However most CDs develop in later childhood and some well into adulthood. This strongly implies it is a psychological need driven by gender dysphoria - a lack of connection and therefore contentment with your given physical gender.

Crossdressing is for the most part just a growing up difficulty which is solved by escapism into the opposite gender.

Hmmm...

Interesting

Could you please expound upon these concepts in more detail. Specifically, exactly what do you mean by a "lack of connection". Also could you explain just exactly what is this "growing up difficulty" and provide an example of what you mean.

[Lorileah]

It certainly is not genetic as patterns could be easily traced within family trees. There are no patterns to crossdressing, it occurs on an individual level.

In a overly simplistic way that may be true. It is probably more correct to say it isn't heritable and even then with the number of TG's who are hiding you don't have a good base line. It c an also be a latent genetic trait expressed under certain conditions. There may be a genome that isn't mapped yet. So you cannot rule out genetics.



I seriously doubt it for those who developed before puberty. Crossdressing is for the most part just a growing up difficulty which is solved by escapism into the opposite gender. Most people would get over those issues by adulthood and deal with it just like any other issues relating to skin color, religion, social-economic background etc. The sexual/emotional high CDs obtain from the fantasy creates a compulsive behavior which in time becomes an integral part of the personality. This is the main reason why tomboys and crossdressers turn out so differently as tomboys never develop a compulsive behavior.
This, again is overly simplistic and probably very wrong. If this were true it would be a reinforced behavior which other that the "risk" factor really has no reinforcement. I think if you talk to many of us here you will find as many or more who had no difficulties growing up. It wasn't a Princess escape. You totally over look the people like me who some how knew that the clothes and the actions were correct at a very young age. We didn't hate being boys. Many of us liked both genders. You would then suggest that being a super hero would lead to dressing as one later in life?

I am sticking with nature and then reinforced by nurture and/or deriving pleasure in some form

[SweetIonis]

Is there any experimental evidence to support the notion that it is a latent genetic trait or are you merely saying that it's possible?

[LilSissyStevie]

The idea that crossdressing is genetic brings up some interesting questions. Where did my paleolithic crossdressing ancestors get their fishnet stockings? Did they weave them out of straw or draw them directly on their legs using charcoal from the fire? Did they underdress with fig leaf thongs and little sabertooth tiger fur panties under their loin cloths? Imagine the work it took to carve wooden 6” stiletto heels using only stone tools. They would have had to create their own make-up from crushed rocks and vegetable dyes.

Another question is: why? Persistant genetic traits tend to help a species survive in some way. So how does crossdressing help the human species survive and reproduce? One theory might be this: The average cave gal spent her entire adult life (which began at age 12) digging up and crushing roots while she suckled one child and was pregnant with another. After a while she would naturally tend to “let herself go.” The more she let herself go, the more time the cave guys spent out hunting mastodons and giant sloths. If this were allowed to continue, the human race would have eventually died out.

So Darwin, in his infinite wisdom, invented the crossdresser gene. When the women saw how sexy those paleolithic CDs were in their tight leather skirts, grass wigs, coconut shell bras and tarty make-up, they were full of envy and tried to compete by gussying themselves up a little. That gave the cave dudes an incentive to stay at home and spear a different sort of game. And so, thanks to the crossdresser gene, the human race survived to create the Malthusian nightmare we all now live in.

We should all demand the government redirect the funds it spends on wars and bailing out bankers into research for locating the crossdresser gene. It should be right there next to the gay gene and the transsexual gene. Hopefully it will not be anywhere near the genes that cause serial killers, child molesters and politicians. We know the gene exists! Our theory proves it!

:brolleyes::tongueout

[Farrah]

Im really confused about this. I started dressing at a very early age, 4. I didn't really know male and female norms at that time. I had male and female influences in my life, so I'm not sure where my cding came from. I think I was born with the urge to cd. I don't know. Oh well, I do now and i don't think there'll be any turning back. :)

[SweetIonis]

Great post LilSissy!

[JamieTG]

I definitely think it is how we are wired. I have read a lot about the subject and found that it is very common for young boys to explore and try on something feminine. It either clicks and and the boy continues to do it, or it doesn't click and the exploration stops. There has to be something in our wiring that makes it click or feel good that very first time and want to continue. Those of use that did start at age 4 or 5 didn't have the rational reasoning process to make a choice at such a young age. It either felt good or it didn't.

[Loni]

it is how we are wired together. some things are learned but if you were not hard wired to cross dress then you would not do so. you would not have more womens things then mens things.

[Schatten Lupus]

I think it should be cleared up that nature/genetic does not necessarily mean an inherited family trait. Also nature includes external influences while you are still in the womb.
And with science, for every compelling study that strongly points towards a genetic cause, there is an equally compelling study that strongly points towards nurture. One of my psychology teachers (who has a Ph.D. in psychology and has counseled people who fall under various levels of transgenderism) in most cases genetics will lay down the potential for what we can be, and a nurturing environment is required to achieve that. There is most definitely a genetic cause as it has been noted that the brains of a transsexual developed more like the brains of the sex they identified as, rather than the sex of their birth. But it takes forces outside of our genetics to live as or embrace the gender we identify as. Whether it be a loving and supportive family that just knows, or our own will power to live as who we should be, it takes a degree of the nurture side of the debate to make it so.

[SweetIonis]

There is most definitely a genetic cause as it has been noted that the brains of a transsexual developed more like the brains of the sex they identified as, rather than the sex of their birth.

Let's suppose that the brain does develop as you say. How does that prove that there is a genetic cause?

Furthermore, can you provide a specific source to back your claim on the brain development?

[BLUE ORCHID]

If you ever get it figured out please let the rest of us know what you've found out.

Orchid

[juno]

People are generally born with mental predisposition toward some form of gender in the male/female continuum. However, it is more due to the environment of your mothers womb. Third sons are significantly are likely to be gay than first sons. You could argue that the womb environment is both nature and nurture, but nurture usually refers to upbringing after birth.

I think that the way children are raised has more to do with their willingness to express their true self rather than conform to a societal standard. My parents always encouraged self expression is far more important than conformance.

Of three sons (I am the middle), I am the only one with feminine tendencies, which were there from a very early age. I was also born with an undescended testicle, which is an indication that I had low testosterone at some point in early development. So, I can confidently say that I was born this way.

Remember, we also start out genderless. I am amazed that divergence to male or female succeeds as often as it does. The brain is far more complex, and has a difficult task. Men are supposed to like masculine things, but choose completely opposite in a sex partner. Correctly developing those conflicting interests seems like a difficult task. It is no surprise that there can be significant variations.

Even more important: Who cares why people are the way they are?

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I think it's both.

I believe that for Non-TS crossdressers, the desire to feel "girly" (for lack of a better term) is a natural impulse amongst many men, and then the desire to create and present as a female persona is a learned/nutured behavior developed by the suppression of such desires via the "real men don't do that" type of socialization.

[steph1964]

Of three sons (I am the middle), I am the only one with feminine tendencies, which were there from a very early age. I was also born with an undescended testicle, which is an indication that I had low testosterone at some point in early development. So, I can confidently say that I was born this way.

That's interesting Juno, I was born with undescended testicles but I had never heard that it was an indication of low testosterone. I hadn't even given it a thought.

[Pythos]

Let me just ask this question, and you need to answer truthfully for it to be worth anything

When a boy plays with the following, A barbie doll, a baby doll, an article of girl's clothing...what usually happens to him?
Is he
A) praised
B) shunned
c) threatened with bodly harm?
d) bullied
e) B,C, and D

Now flip this over for girls playing with play power tools, toy cars, wearing items of clothing that used to be for boys only.

Now, tell me that it is just nature, when you have answered these questions.

[SweetIonis]

Pythos, I think you certainly demonstrated that it's not EXCLUSIVELY nature. However, without giving nature as an explanation, one would be hard pressed to explain many aspects of behavior that seem to be prominent in different individuals, despite being in practically the same environment.

[steph1964]

Let me just ask this question, and you need to answer truthfully for it to be worth anything

When a boy plays with the following, A barbie doll, a baby doll, an article of girl's clothing...what usually happens to him?
Is he
A) praised
B) shunned
c) threatened with bodly harm?
d) bullied
e) B,C, and D

Now flip this over for girls playing with play power tools, toy cars, wearing items of clothing that used to be for boys only.

Now, tell me that it is just nature, when you have answered these questions.

Pythos, That is a good example but I think that you just argued against nurture. The fact that boys are shunned, threatened and bullied places them in an environment where crossdressing isn't tolerated. Therefore the the environment wouldn't be the cause of the crossdressing, just the cause of placing crossdressers in the closet. If a boy was praised then that could be an example where nurture played a big part.

As I have stated previously, I think that it depends on the individual.

[Kristy_K]

I myself also started at a very young age. I remember raiding my mom's dresser before the cookie jar. My older half brother is a CD. My younger full brother wants nothing to do with it. I watch a show on TV that look at some of the other culture,s in the world like India,s and some that I haven't even heard of before also have there form of CD's. Except in them cultures they are consider to be special people and have special place in there society and not consider to be strange. We just live in the wrong area of the world.

[SweetIonis]

The fact that boys are shunned, threatened and bullied places them in an environment where crossdressing isn't tolerated. Therefore the the environment wouldn't be the cause of the crossdressing, just the cause of placing crossdressers in the closet.

I understand what you are saying here, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. I could also mean that because the environmental factors are so harsh, there is not a larger proliferation of the phenomenon. Furthermore, by placing the behavior in the closet, it could be that the heightened sense of taboo actually increases the desire, and therefore causes the behavior to become more prominent. As such, the argument put forward does not NECESSARILY exclude the environment as being a factor.

[Sue101]

Could you please expound upon these concepts in more detail. Specifically, exactly what do you mean by a "lack of connection". Also could you explain just exactly what is this "growing up difficulty" and provide an example of what you mean.

Well growing up pains refers to the transition from childhood to adulthood. A lot of kids dont like leaving behind the safety and security of a happy, playful innocent childhood and heading into the unknown where many adult behaviors and responsibilities look daunting even frightening. Many of the classic children's books from Narnia to Peter Pan deal with this common issue. Children create alternative fantasy worlds to help them escape from their insecurities so these novels greatly appeal to children but the authors always advise children that they must return to reality and grow up. I think crossdressing fantasies are based on the same powerful escapism mechanism except we don't become wizards or space cowboys, we become girls because we link our insecurities with our male gender and so explore the fantasy of switching genders.

The lack of connection refers to the difficultuies in matching who children feel they are to the images of masculinity towards which they are being propeled. To respond to Lorileah, this is not about having an unhappy childhood or hating being a boy. Quite the opposite. Many CDs including myself had a normal happy childhood. This is about subconscious feelings of unease and inadequacy that we will fail to transition into real men because we are not courageous, not ruthless, not super competitive, not cold hearted, not aggressive etc. Our personal likes appear to have much more in common with women than men so we harbor doubts how we could be successful/happy playing the adult male role. The escapist fantasy of becoming a girl is a coping mechanism which recognises our disconnect with masculinity.

BTW these comments dont cover those who have gender identity concerns and who identify as a girl from a very early age. It is about the majority of crossdressers who begin crossdressing in later childhood without any history of prior gender trauma.

[morgan51]

As a young child I was driven to present as a female would long before I had any idea of sex or sexual feelings so I would have to say nature was the driving force at age 4. Nurture in our home was always gender appropriate and I had a strong father and mother figure to look up to. Becoming a young adult there wasn't any doubt as to how I should present, I just would rather not follow convention. So today I am learning to follow my heart instead of my mind. Admitting I'm hoplessly t and embracing that brings a nice balance to my life that has been missing for almost 60 years.

[Sue101]

There is most definitely a genetic cause as it has been noted that the brains of a transsexual developed more like the brains of the sex they identified as, rather than the sex of their birth. I guess you are refering to the 1995 study by Zhou, Hofman, Gooren, and Swaab which dissected the brains of six post-op MTF transsexuals and found their structure to be more in line with females than males. You are aware of the serious flaw in this study? Aside from the tiny number of subjects, all the transsexuals had been on hormones for a long time. Since we know hormones dictate male and female brain structures, the result was predictable. Only by disscting transsexual brains who never took hormones would you be able to discern if there was a genetic causation. And unless the person has a hormonal imbalance a MTF transsexual's brain is only exposed to testosterone from the day they are born until the day they begin hormone treatment.

[Intertwined]

BTW Reto, you have beautiful feet, but can you walk in those shoes??

Not only do I get around on a set of 5 inch heels just as easily as I do flats, my back and legs feel better after wearing heels, compared to wearing flats.

NOW ! The Question, is this because I have done it for so long it's just what I am accustomed to, or, is because my body is genetically shaped in such a manner it is just more comfortable for me?


Neither. I think we were brainwashed!

THATS IT, Watching Bugs Bunny crossdress in the cartoons that I always watched did it.

Honestly Tho... because of my situation, I have no idea, my parents seperated when I was 2 years old. I lived with my mother, raised by her, my aunts and my grandmother, the only masculine examples I had in my life were drunks and wife beaters, this would lead you to believe Nurture. BUT A couple of years ago, I was diagnosed with klinefelters syndrome, 3 sex chromosome XXY, this would lead you to believe Nature...

[MattiQ]

Having a son who is a crossdresser, and recently finding out my father is a crossdresser, I have to say the nature definitely can play into it. Three generations, coincidence, I think not.

[SweetIonis]

Well growing up pains refers to the transition from childhood to adulthood. A lot of kids dont like leaving behind the safety and security of a happy, playful innocent childhood and heading into the unknown where many adult behaviors and responsibilities look daunting even frightening. Many of the classic children's books from Narnia to Peter Pan deal with this common issue. Children create alternative fantasy worlds to help them escape from their insecurities so these novels greatly appeal to children but the authors always advise children that they must return to reality and grow up. I think crossdressing fantasies are based on the same powerful escapism mechanism except we don't become wizards or space cowboys, we become girls because we link our insecurities with our male gender and so explore the fantasy of switching genders.

The lack of connection refers to the difficultuies in matching who children feel they are to the images of masculinity towards which they are being propeled. To respond to Lorileah, this is not about having an unhappy childhood or hating being a boy. Quite the opposite. Many CDs including myself had a normal happy childhood. This is about subconscious feelings of unease and inadequacy that we will fail to transition into real men because we are not courageous, not ruthless, not super competitive, not cold hearted, not aggressive etc. Our personal likes appear to have much more in common with women than men so we harbor doubts how we could be successful/happy playing the adult male role. The escapist fantasy of becoming a girl is a coping mechanism which recognises our disconnect with masculinity.

BTW these comments dont cover those who have gender identity concerns and who identify as a girl from a very early age. It is about the majority of crossdressers who begin crossdressing in later childhood without any history of prior gender trauma.

That's some heavy duty shit Sue! Very interesting. I especially find it interesting because I know I never really identified with girl things at an early age, and had quite a happy childhood. But as I said earlier, I distinctly remember having this inflated image of what I thought a guy should be and trying to project that when I would try to talk to girls. I also remember being very attracted to them, but also feeling very awkward talking to them, feeling that I would mess up or would somehow fail. I would be in anxiety in that regard. I don't feel any of the stuff about the competitiveness etc. But I remember it now. I was feeling that somehow if I failed, I would not make this transition into this artificial image of manhood that I created. Although you use the word children, I see this could possibly related to your statement:

"The lack of connection refers to the difficultuies in matching who children feel they are to the images of masculinity towards which they are being propeled."


What do you or anyone else who wished to comment think. Any rate, I need to think about it. But THANKS A LOT. This was definitely food for thought.

[SweetIonis]

Only by disscting transsexual brains who never took hormones would you be able to discern if there was a genetic causation. And unless the person has a hormonal imbalance a MTF transsexual's brain is only exposed to testosterone from the day they are born until the day they begin hormone treatment.

Perhaps you all need to be a bit more specific, because I still fail to understand the rational necessity that dictates that because a transexual's brain developed as a female, that the cause, HAS to be genetic. Environmental factors can surely cause the brain to develop in a certain way. Honestly, I realize I don't know much about this subject. However, I know for a fact that neural network technology was developed around the theory that the way we learn is by external stimuli causing synaptic neural connections to form in a certain way. Neural networks simulate this type of activity. What this tells me is that brain development can certainly be influenced by environmental factors. It doesn't necessarily have to be genetic. Therefore even if you demonstrated that the development was similar to a female, what is the rational necessity that dictates that the cause was genetic?

[Sue101]

I especially find it interesting because I know I never really identified with girl things at an early age, and had quite a happy childhood. That is what makes the whole subject fascinating, trying to pin down the causation effects that seemingly appeared out of nowhere. I was very happy being a boy. I had no time or interest in girls. I was conditioned as a boy to think of them as irrelevant, second class citizens that were no good for anything except teasing. I did not relate to them at all so there is no evidence that I was transgendered for the first ten years of my life. So how come I ended up identifying with girls and turning my back on anything I considered overtly masculine?

We always try to recall specific events that could have trigger our interest in crossdressing and mostly we come up empty handed. I believe we are looking in the wrong direction. The answer lies in the background noise of our everyday feelings and emotions, our fears and anxieties that we would fail to live up to expectations and become one of life's losers. If I failed to grow into a real man then the only alternative in a binary system would be to associate myself with girls. My venture into crossdressing was an acknowledgement that I would be more comfortable being female than male since that solved the immediate problem of my perceived failings to achieve masculine goals.


because I still fail to understand the rational necessity that dictates that because a transexual's brain developed as a female, that the cause, HAS to be genetic. Actually it probably rarely is. Genetics would have to cause abnormal hormone levels which in turn produced abnormal brain mapping. Intersexed individuals would fit that bill but normal healthy XY males would not. In fact any environmental cause that created a male with female brain mapping would have to be fairly powerful to overcome the effects of the testosterone produced in the male's genitals every minute of every day.

There is an obvious assumption people make that the differences in male and female brain mapping causes masculinity and femininity. A simple analogy of brain mapping is that a man and a woman are asked to travel from point A to point B. They take separate routes and one is probably more direct and faster. We can measure these differences in performance in certain tasks between the sexes, they are small but detectable and measure these different patterns in the formation of neural connections. However these differences in brain mapping while interesting, are largely irrelevant if men and women both end up at the same destination. But what that has to do with feeling masculine or feminine is undetermined.

I cannot detect any signs that I have a feminine brain nor would I expect to find any but that does not stop me from feeling supremely feminine when I crossdress so it is clear that these behaviors are not controlled by the brain mapping. The most masculine of men crossdress - from soldiers and policemen to politicians and business leaders. And feminine women can do the most masculine of jobs. To me this indicates this is most likely another dead end where the need to believe that crossdressing is genetic is not supported by the evidence or rational analysis.

[Engendered]

Another question is: why? Persistant genetic traits tend to help a species survive in some way. So how does crossdressing help the human species survive and reproduce?

When all the manly men have been wiped out by a pack of lions when hunting, it helps to have a couple of guys hanging out and doing girly things back at the cave so that the tribe can go on. :)
Crossdressers are the product of evolutions ancient wisdom: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket"

[SweetIonis]

We always try to recall specific events that could have trigger our interest in crossdressing and mostly we come up empty handed. I believe we are looking in the wrong direction. The answer lies in the background noise of our everyday feelings and emotions, our fears and anxieties that we would fail to live up to expectations and become one of life's losers. If I failed to grow into a real man then the only alternative in a binary system would be to associate myself with girls.

I find that concept interesting, but I'm still thinking about it. As I said earlier, I remember having some anxiety in that regard when I started trying to talk to girls in a sexual way. However, I am not able to find a direct connection between that and my experiences in dressing. As far as I can remember, my first experience was driven by curiosity more than anything else and I got stunned by the experience. I had a steady girl when I started dressing as an adult and initially, I think that was more driven by curiosity but combined with a desire to expand on my previous experience. But it's possible I was trying to relieve some of the other stress of having to survive. It's that stress associated with having to survive, to make a decent living where I THINK (I'm not sure) the link my lie. It's been a while since I read about it, but as I recall, Freud talked about something called the erotic instinct. It's possible (again I'm not sure), that the anxiety that I earlier experienced as an adolescent with respect to talking to girls, is subconsciously bundled with that anxiety. What do you think?



Actually it probably rarely is. Genetics would have to cause abnormal hormone levels which in turn produced abnormal brain mapping. Intersexed individuals would fit that bill but normal healthy XY males would not. In fact any environmental cause that created a male with female brain mapping would have to be fairly powerful to overcome the effects of the testosterone produced in the male's genitals every minute of every day.

There is an obvious assumption people make that the differences in male and female brain mapping causes masculinity and femininity. A simple analogy of brain mapping is that a man and a woman are asked to travel from point A to point B. They take separate routes and one is probably more direct and faster. We can measure these differences in performance in certain tasks between the sexes, they are small but detectable and measure these different patterns in the formation of neural connections. However these differences in brain mapping while interesting, are largely irrelevant if men and women both end up at the same destination. But what that has to do with feeling masculine or feminine is undetermined.


So are you saying that studies have actually been done where men and women are asked to do the same task. Then they look at the resultant neural patterns and they find that the women in the study have similar patterns, the men have similar patterns, and that the patterns of the men differ from those of the women. That's interesting. I'm assuming they examined them before the task, because otherwise it would be a meaningless exercise.

But yeah, I think that's a good point that feeling masculine or feminine doesn't have to be related to brain mappings. I think the fact that one can feel BOTH ways supports this notion.

[Sue101]

But it's possible I was trying to relieve some of the other stress of having to survive. It's that stress associated with having to survive, to make a decent living where I THINK (I'm not sure) the link my lie. Quite possible. I personally know of two men who committed suicide after they lost their jobs and could no longer provide for their families. If failing in your male responsibilities can result in suicide then just the fear of failure would provide sufficient impetus to develop a coping mechanism. The psychological impact of crossdressing behavior is to remove yourself temporarily from your maleness and all its stresses and responsibilities and explore a fun experience that is devoid of stress and responsibility.


So are you saying that studies have actually been done where men and women are asked to do the same task. Absolutely science has identified many tasks which produce small be reproducable differences in perfermormance such as in language and mathematics proficiency or spatial abilities. Not only are there differences in brain mapping but also in what makes up the brain with men having significantly more grey matter while women have more white matter so the concentations of neurons are different. When a man is asked to speak a certain word one part of his brain lights up to perform the task while in women a different part of the brain is used. But both men and women can speak the word as proficently as each other and have equal understanding of the word. So the differences in the brain processing are irrelevant to the outcome.

Essentially men and women process information differently and so often approach a subject from a different angle but the end result is either the same or very similar. None of the differences in abilities are profound and are minor compared to the large differences in behavior different cultural environments produce. Most importantly of all, men and women share the same overall abilities, feelings and emotions. There is nothing men do that women do not and vice versa. So when we see any form of behavior that is dominated by one gender in our society, that is solely the result of gender conditioning not of differences in brain mapping/processing. So any male who dresses in a LBD and enjoys feelings of prettiness and desirability then that is as normal a feeling for a man to experience as it is for women.

[Fab Karen]

As the guy who couldn't afford music instruments said,"don't worry, be happy."

[SusanQ]

I was raised by a very dominating mother, and a quite dominated father. We lived in a four unit building, with three of my mother's sisters living in the other three apartments. There was a constant strong feminine presence in our house...I really do believe that I am the way I am because of all of these women who became role models for me.

[Engendered]

I'm uneasy at the view expressed in some of the posts here, that we are the way we are because of childhood insecurities. The idea of being scared of the grown-up world and male expectations and hence jumping headlong into female escapism is not something that sits right with me. It's almost like saying that gay people are gay because they were frightened by the idea of asking girls out when they were younger and were more comfortable around guys. :)

[SweetIonis]

The psychological impact of crossdressing behavior is to remove yourself temporarily from your maleness and all its stresses and responsibilities and explore a fun experience that is devoid of stress and responsibility.

Sue, you have really helped shed some light on this subject for me. Thanks.



Not only are there differences in brain mapping but also in what makes up the brain with men having significantly more grey matter while women have more white matter so the concentations of neurons are different. When a man is asked to speak a certain word one part of his brain lights up to perform the task while in women a different part of the brain is used.

That's interesting in of itself. I didn't know that. I will think about it some more. Again thanks.

[kimdl93]

When all the manly men have been wiped out by a pack of lions when hunting, it helps to have a couple of guys hanging out and doing girly things back at the cave so that the tribe can go on. :)
Crossdressers are the product of evolutions ancient wisdom: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket"

Along these lines, through most of history, the eldest male tended to inherit the family wealth - leaving the younger male siblings with the choice of subordinating to the elder, or engaging in fratricide! Research has shown that younger male siblings are more likely to be effeminate than thier older brothers, and the more older siblings, the more likey one is to be so. This genetic influence may have contributed to more harmonious family relations and more stable extended families, and in the end, more success in reproduction.

There are other illustrations among other social species. Wolf packs, for example, include a dominant, reproductive pair supported by subordinate male and female siblings.


I'm uneasy at the view expressed in some of the posts here, that we are the way we are because of childhood insecurities. The idea of being scared of the grown-up world and male expectations and hence jumping headlong into female escapism is not something that sits right with me. It's almost like saying that gay people are gay because they were frightened by the idea of asking girls out when they were younger and were more comfortable around guys. :)

I also think that the suggestion that "escaping" to a female role reflects a rather unrealistic perception of womens' lives... Today or in the past. Women have never really had it that good - outside of Victorian romance novels.

[Tina B.]

Either way it's all just speculation, I'll wait for the science community to agree with each other, before I can take either side serious. I come from a family of one girl followed by three boys, oldest son very macho, youngest son, called Bubba, he is so macho and rednecked, middle son, never liked sports, got along better with girls than boys always, and started crossdressing at least by the time I was 6 or 7, same parents, father, also very manly, take charge kind of guy. I can't find how nature, loses out to nurture. But it does make for a great topic, no one seems to be able to be proven wrong.
Tina B.

[Sue101]

I'm uneasy at the view expressed in some of the posts here, that we are the way we are because of childhood insecurities. So are you saying that childhood insecurities have no impact in how we turn out as adults? You would be hardpressed to find any psychologists who would support that. We are the product of our experiences, thoughts and emotions with our childhood being the most important formative time.


It's almost like saying that gay people are gay because they were frightened by the idea of asking girls out when they were younger and were more comfortable around guys How do you know you have not just found the source of homosexulity :) You missed the bigger picture. It is not about being scared or experiencing some form of trauma, it is about a lack of connection with what you percieved masculinity to be. It is about anxiety that you will not live up to expectations or dispondency that you will be left behind. Such feelings will result in our slowly distancing ourselves from masculinity and seeking linkages and reassurance in female culture. It is a process which opens up the door to exploration as we seek to align our innermost feelings with the options society offers.

Think of it as a person who was brought up under one religion slowly realizing that his beliefs do not satisfy him or maybe run contrary to his convictions. He then investigates another religion which offers greater satisfaction and so he begins to integrate new ideas into his beliefs and maybe eventually he switches over entrely. Most people stick with the religion they were indoctrinated into by their parents (just like gender) but a few will convert when doubts and dissatisfaction reach a sufficiently high level.

[SweetIonis]

Quite possible. I personally know of two men who committed suicide after they lost their jobs and could no longer provide for their families. If failing in your male responsibilities can result in suicide then just the fear of failure would provide sufficient impetus to develop a coping mechanism. The psychological impact of crossdressing behavior is to remove yourself temporarily from your maleness and all its stresses and responsibilities and explore a fun experience that is devoid of stress and responsibility.


I want to take a deeper bite out of that apple. The issue of maleness does not have to be associated with the pressure of making a living. I think that will vary from individual to individual with respect to the extent that their source of income is tied up with their ego. Of course everything we do is tied to our ego to some extent, but an individual can work at a job and only care about it with respect to just drawing a paycheck. Such a person has no real interest in the job itself, as opposed to someone who is doing something that they are actually passionate about. For example, Einstein worked for a short period as some sort of patent clerk. His real interests however, were much deeper than examining patents. As such I would expect there he had much more of an egotistical investment in his theories, than his work at the patent office. Regardless, any person who has to work for a living will be in some anxiety about there ability to remain employed. That is true whether one is a man or a woman. A woman will sometimes find relief from the stresses associated with having to make a living by going to buy new clothes. When she does so, is she seeking relief from the pressures of maleness? Of course not. She is seeking relief from the pressure associated with having to survive. The point is that while there could be some aspect of escaping the pressures of maleness associated with crossdressing, it doesn't have to be a prominent aspect. It could have more to do with escaping the more general pressures associated with having to survive.

[Sue101]

The point is that while there could be some aspect of escaping the pressures of maleness associated with crossdressing, it doesn't have to be a prominent aspect. It could have more to do with escaping the more general pressures associated with having to survive. True enough there are many pressures in life and there are also many coping mechanisms eg. taking a break, going to a spa, playing sports etc. When the coping mechanism involves switching gender roles though then that does suggest the person has identified gender to be either the problem or the solution ie. distancing yourself from pressures perceived to revolve around being a man, or drawn to femininity through the perception that women have it easy. The key here is perception. In reality the pressures may indeed be general survival problems everyone experiences and women certainly do not have it easy either.

Consider crossdressing fantasies. How many CDs dress up as a female janitor cleaning an office? That does not rate highly on the CD's all time favorite fantasies listing because it lacks strong overtones of sexuality or femininity.

[ReineD]

So any male who dresses in a LBD and enjoys feelings of prettiness and desirability then that is as normal a feeling for a man to experience as it is for women.

I disagree. You and I were involved in a discussion about this in the "Men Being Men Part 2" thread, where you asked me to read some literature. I did, and my response to your quote is posted in that thread:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?154373-Men-being-men-part-2-....-the-dark-side-%28-amp-comment-on-androgyny-in-the-mainstream%29&p=2537306&viewfull=1#post2537306

[Engendered]

So are you saying that childhood insecurities have no impact in how we turn out as adults?

Oh boy! Ok, I'll play. :)
Everything has some degree of impact on our future selves including this very conversation. What I don't believe, is that childhood insecurity alone makes crossdressers. I am in the nature + nurture camp for good reasons.


How do you know you have not just found the source of homosexulity :)

I'm not sure if this is a joke. :) If you're going to extend the argument that nature has no part in homosexuality, then I'm happy for the company of my gay friends when I say how dangerous that notion can be. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I'm getting from your posts is that you believe that CDers (and perhaps even gay people) are purely a product of what happens to them when they're young. Basically, that if we could pinpoint the reasons for it, we could essentially 'cure' CDing or gayness by nipping it in the bud. Show a boy that maleness also encompasses what he's feeling inside as an individual, and he won't need to veer off into exploring femininity?
And as an extension to that, we could potentially turn *any* person into a CDer.


We are the product of our experiences, thoughts and emotions with our childhood being the most important formative time.

Partially yes. Nature and nurture both play a role in how we develop. Two very different (genetically) babies, raised the same way, will not turn out the same way. One might turn out gay, one might not, one might be a CDer, one might not. If this were not the case, people could quite legitimately put a significant portion of "blame" on their parents for raising them gay or CD. It would be also be possible to cure homosexuality or transgendered people if you got there early enough after the feelings started to emerge.
This leads to a very very nasty world. A place where parents of a child could feel legitimately angry towards a person for "trying to make my son gay". It would increase hate crimes towards us all by validating the notion that CDers or gay people are bred, not born, and that people can be "turned".

So not only do the ideas you've presented not sit right with my own personal experience, or the stories I've read on these forums, but they lead to very dangerous places.



It is about anxiety that you will not live up to expectations or dispondency that you will be left behind.


I feel you're targetting a specific group of CDers. For instance, you specifically stated that it doesn't apply to TS folk. So TS people you say have gender identity issues "from the get-go". This strongly points towards nature as a significant factor, and I think this also extends across the spectrum of T-ness. Some of us are born with varying levels of predisposition towards the opposite gender. Those who feel it most strongly become TS..and those who experience it to a lesser degree become the vast sprawling identities that we have here on this site. Some want to live full time, some only CD once a year. Pick a spot on the spectrum and you can find one of us.

You mention a lot in your idea that feeling a disconnect between our inner selves and what we see masculinity to be is what makes us feel the need to explore other options, but where does that feeling come from in the first place? Why would some feel that, when others don't? I don't agree with your nurture argument, but if it were true, I believe only those with a certain nature could travel down your path. :)

I'm not completely against your view..i think there's a bridge between us. My own feeling on the nature/nurture debate is that we're all born with a percentage chance of being a CD, and our upbringing either triggers that or not. I feel in myself, given the raw strength of the feeling, that there was probably a 90-95% chance of me being CD, and if it didn't develop early on, there would be a latent framework for it throughout my life. I also believe that the vast majority of people couldn't be turned into a CD no matter what their childhood experience was like. They're simply not wired like that.

When I came out to my parents I didn't say "and it's because of how you raised me". I was likely always going to be this way with or without them. You said in an earlier post that genetic patterns could be easily traced within family trees. I'm not sure how, as most CDers are deeply closetted. We can't even get accurate statistics on how many of us there are yet. My grandfather could CD and I'd never know. My father could too. Actually I've seen him do it for drama productions recently but that's another story.

[SweetIonis]

True enough there are many pressures in life and there are also many coping mechanisms eg. taking a break, going to a spa, playing sports etc. When the coping mechanism involves switching gender roles though then that does suggest the person has identified gender to be either the problem or the solution ie. distancing yourself from pressures perceived to revolve around being a man, or drawn to femininity through the perception that women have it easy.

As I have said before, the person could also be drawn to femininity because they find women to be so attractive that they want to taste the PLEASURABLE experience of what it is like to be so supremely beautiful. I would even go further as to put forward the notion that there may not necessarily be a strong component of escaping pressure at all. It could simply be the desire for a particular type of pleasure.


The key here is perception. In reality the pressures may indeed be general survival problems everyone experiences and women certainly do not have it easy either.

Consider crossdressing fantasies. How many CDs dress up as a female janitor cleaning an office? That does not rate highly on the CD's all time favorite fantasies listing because it lacks strong overtones of sexuality or femininity.

I would say that the pressures are indeed more centered on survival rather than issues of maleness. However I would not rule out the perception that someone may have that causes them to confuse issues of survival with maleness. My point is that it does not NECESSARILY have to be the case.

Of course a female janitor cleaning an office or working in the serve out line at a cafeteria does not necessarily convey the sexuality or femininity that would cause one to want to emulate the behavior. However, if all of a sudden all women who did such things were as beautiful as Salma Hayek and dressed in booty shorts and halters, I would expect that we would see that situation change! LOL!

[SweetIonis]

I disagree. You and I were involved in a discussion about this in the "Men Being Men Part 2" thread, where you asked me to read some literature. I did, and my response to your quote is posted in that thread:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?154373-Men-being-men-part-2-....-the-dark-side-%28-amp-comment-on-androgyny-in-the-mainstream%29&p=2537306&viewfull=1#post2537306

If the point that Sue was trying to make was that social conditioning was responsible for boys not wanting to dress, then I agree, that is inaccurate. That said, I think that you and others who hold the view that social conditioning ALONE is responsible for the differences in amplitude and performance that we observe between males and females, make the same mistake This can be easily demonstrated by the fact that two males can be brought up in practically the same environment, but yet one will have a greater aptitude towards something like engineering whereas the other will have more of an aptitude for the arts. If this is true between two males, then there is no rational necessity which would lead us to believe that it is not true between a male and a female. As as result, we are lead to conclude that environment is not the sole factor in determining aptitude and performance, and hence we MUST look to some biological aspect that is either the cause or a symptom of the difference. If this were not true then putting two individuals in the same environment should always result the same aptitude and performance being produced. And as you well know the differences in aptitude and performance between men and women in certain disciplines has been well documented.

[ilana]

I believe we are born with a feminine side to our masculine self (nature) and then through exposure to society (nuture) we unconsciously decide that cding is the best way to express our feminine side. I've wanted to cd as long as I can remember, but it makes no sense that I was born with a desire to cd. I wouldn't have even known what clothes were then.

[ReineD]

As as result, we are lead to conclude that environment is not the sole factor in determining aptitude and performance,

This is exactly my point. :)

[Valerie Nova]

Ooh, ooh! I did a term paper on this very subject! Let's see if I remember it right... it's not genetic or nurture, it's the hormones you're exposed to prenatally. So, in essence, you're born that way, but it's not genetic. Anyway, certain hormones, particularly stress hormones, can rewire random parts of the brain to be more like the opposite sex's. If the part of the brain that determines what sex you're attracted to gets rewired, you wind up bisexual or gay (depending on the level). If the part of the brain that controls speech gets rewired, you SOUND like you're gay, but may or may not be. If the majority of the brain gets rewired to the opposite sex, you're transexual. These hormones can also effect the body. Like, a lot of us LOOK more feminine than most guys. (and don't mind it one bit!) Of course, come puberty, virtually all of us have only one set of genitals, so we develop the corresponding secondary sex characteristics. As for crossdressing, obviously there isn't a gene for clothing preference, but there probably is a part of the brain controlling our desired self-perception. And so naturally, we're all stuck with brains that want us to look pretty. :p

HOWEVER, there is something called androgen insensitivity syndrome, which is genetic, and essentially causes you not to respond strongly (or at all) to testosterone. A man with this condition will probably be quite feminine both mentally and physically. And a genetic male with total androgen insensitivity will be born with a vagina, albeit, a nonfunctional one.

Then of course there's Klinefelter's syndrome, in which boys are born with the XXY genotype. They will have male genitals, but will be very feminine. I believe one of the girls in a James Bond movie actually had a Y chromosome and was born with male genitals, but looked and acted like a girl growing up, and transitioned before puberty.

But virtually all of us are in the first category. Regular guys, made more feminine by our mother's hormones.

[SweetIonis]

This is exactly my point. :)

Ok, but you did say:

"I agree with her there is no biological basis for any inequality between the sexes."

If there is NO biological basis, then you are implying that the differences are due to purely environmental factors. And I'm saying that is not true. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so perhaps you can clarify what you mean.

[ReineD]

I'm sorry, I should have specified: I meant in terms of cognitive abilities.

[SweetIonis]

I'm sorry, I should have specified: I meant in terms of cognitive abilities.

I know it's not politically correct but I disagree with that position. That would imply that differences in cognitive abilities are due solely to environmental factors and that's just not the case. This can be demonstrated easily by observing that persons are born in environments that do not favor the development of certain skills yet, they end up exhibiting phenomenal aptitude and performance. Carl Gauss was born to an illiterate mother. His father was a gardener and brick layer who even discouraged his son from attending school. Yet he exhibited almost supernatural mathematical ability from the time he was a young child. He went on the become the greatest mathematician of all time. His work has no parallel, and many of the technological advances of today as well as many of the conveniences we enjoy are a result of and would not have been possible without his work. Clearly environment cannot explain the development of such genius. This indicates innate biological factors must play a significant role in the development of cognitive ability. Therefore, I don't believe it is accurate to say that there is no biological basis for the differences we observe between the sexes in terms of cognitive ability.

[ReineD]

No, Ionis, to spell it out, I mean that women are just as capable as men at being good at math. :)

[suchacutie]

Personally I buy into the recent research concerning brain development showing that if the hormonal washes aren't accomplished properly in males, the brain is left with some parts unchanged from the initial feminine brainstem. That can leave a male with a brain arrangement across the spectrum from primarily female to almost completely male. As has been said, it's then up to the individual to act.

tina

[SweetIonis]

No, Ionis, to spell it out, I mean that women are just as capable as men at being good at math. :)

When you look at the results when aptitude and performance are measured, women, as a class, don't appear to be. And the differences CANNOT be solely due to environmental factors.

[ReineD]

I'm not getting into THAT argument with you, Ionis. LOL. As a woman, I hate to think I am less smart than any man just because of my chromosomes. :p

[kendra_gurl]

Getting back to the OP

My 20 year old grandaughter has not seen her father since she was 2 years old. No contact at all. Yet we are always seeing things that make us say OMG she is just like her dad.

You are bound to have traits of both your parents from Nature

You are also bound to have traits learned by the way you were Nutrued.

I believe where this seems different for males who like to crossdress is mostly becuause it's not socially accepted. Turn this thread around to the FtM . If females who were raised my macho dads and several brothers can live their life content to be feminine when they want and tomboyish or masculine when they want it is sociaty who accepts thats as normal. Only a rare few ever feel they are transgendered and want to totally escape their feminine self. This to me is what seperates the majority of us from the TS community.

It's seem perfectally natural to say that both nature and nurture play a roll in who we are. Sometimes we may even rebel against our nature or nurture by trying to be different from a parent who was too far to one side of our comfort zone

We who enjoy crossdressing and expressing our feminine side are being held hostage by our perceptions of how others will react when in reality we are not much different from the average female living her life expressing both her parents traits.

[SweetIonis]

I'm not getting into THAT argument with you, Ionis. LOL. As a woman, I hate to think I am less smart than any man just because of my chromosomes. :p

Well Reine, sometimes reality doesn't fit into the way we would like to see the world. When you look at SAT scores for example, year after year, females score SIGNIFICANTLY lower than males in math, although they are about equal in reading and slightly better in writing. That can't possibly ALL be due to environmental factors.

I just thought it was interesting that while you pointed out the flaw in Sue's egalitarian position, you made a similar mistake in that regard.

That said, I'm willing to leave it at that.



We who enjoy crossdressing and expressing our feminine side are being held hostage by our perceptions of how others will react when in reality we are not much different from the average female living her life expressing both her parents traits.

If you are talking about the so called "tomboys" that you referenced earlier, I would say there is a significant difference in a man who crossdresses to express a feminine side and a tomboy. A tomboy is typically not overtly trying to express an underlying masculine nature, but simply likes to do things that are normally associated with boys. For example, climbing trees. One reason I like my girl is that when we go to the country, we really get into climbing trees and throwing and skipping rocks. Actually she can beat me climbing trees. But I can assure you, she is an EXTREMELY feminine woman. Nothing masculine about her.

[Krista1985]

I think it's definitely innate and most likely genetic,

At least that's my current opinion. I've thought about this question quite a bit, and seen it come up here a few times on the boards. There are good views on both sides of Nature v Nurture, but one thing is for sure; it be very difficult to prove a genetic link scientifically. Study data would need to span generations, and finding willing participants would be a challenge because many are secretive about their dressing. A scientific study is only as good as it's data is reliable, and in this case human subjects are unreliable, and quite possibly unavailable.

That led me to ponder examples in nature of male animals displaying female behavior and traits in daily life, even in their mating rituals. Gender confusion isn't confined to the human experience, so the reason for it must exist in nature itself. Here's a good article I found on the subject...

http://www.galva108.org/aroundtheworld.html

Naysayers will claim, "There isn't any gene that makes a person put on clothing period, so claiming a genetic preference for female clothing is flawed."

That assumption understates the role that clothing plays in our socialization and the perception of our role in society. We put on clothing because we learn to clothe ourselves in the process of socialization and development. At some point, we learn that there is a different dress code for males and females. Yet for some reason, we still prefer female attire.

In the article, the author discusses a bird species called the 'ochre-bellied flycatcher.' A significant minority of males in the species exhibit transgendered behavior in mating and courtship. The male birds who displays female mating behavior learned the role from watching and emulating female birds. It was part of their socialization process to adopt a mating behavior, and despite being males, the birds followed a female example. In the process of socialization, it was instinct that ultimately led these birds to study and emulate female mating behavior. I believe it's also instinct that leads the fledgling TV/CD/TS to the panty drawer the first few times.

Here's where a critic might add, "But the bird 'learned' the behavior, so the learned component of 'Nature v Nurture' cannot be ignored."

And they'd have a point. I'd have to counter with a question of my own. "So was it lack of male examples that made the bird opt to learn cross-gender behavior?" Doubtful. "A more likely explanation is that the male bird was born with the innate desire to emulate female behavior, sought out a female role-model to emulate and since bird society is far less rigid than our own, the other birds just went with it." I'd have to admit that learning plays a role, but in the end, the driving force which inspires the adoption of transgendered behavior is innate.

If our society was as open-minded and flexible as bird society, perhaps we'd know the truth. Until then, I'll be scouring every pet shop I come across until I find a tranny parrot for company :)

[Engendered]

Thanks for the link Krista. Some very interesting reading in that. :)

[Adriennegrl]

On a basic level I'd say both. I have toddler pictures of myself in my aunt's heels. I spent a great deal of time around them growing up and my female cousins. I even got a facial one time from my cousin and her brother's wife. So with that I'd say some is learned while genetics/hormones plays into the mix as well.

I realize this subject is much deeper. Skimming through some replies vouches for that. I will go back and read more intently when time allows.

Great thread.

[kendra_gurl]

For example, climbing trees. One reason I like my girl is that when we go to the country, we really get into climbing trees and throwing and skipping rocks. Actually she can beat me climbing trees. But I can assure you, she is an EXTREMELY feminine woman. Nothing masculine about her.

This is exatly what I meant. Any activity that that is not defined as totally feminine is perfectly acceptable by most females as just something that is normal when they want to do it unlike a male doing any activity that is not defined as totally masculine is.

I am not trying to say its wrong. Most people would agree that any female who can pull off being one of the guys at times while still being very feminine is a great attribute for her. A lot of people( women included) just get a little weird when a guy wants to participate in more feminine activities and be just one of the girls.

[SweetIonis]

Any activity that that is not defined as totally feminine is perfectly acceptable by most females as just something that is normal when they want to do it unlike a male doing any activity that is not defined as totally masculine is.


Actually females can be quite cruel about such things, depending on the group. The "Barbie Doll' type crowd can especially be very cruel when it comes to such things.

And as I said before "crossdressing and enjoying expressing a feminine side" is quite a bit different from a girl climbing trees and throwing rocks. A better comparison would be a girl dressing as a man because she wants to project a masculine persona and feel like a man.

[ReineD]

Any activity that that is not defined as totally feminine is perfectly acceptable by most females as just something that is normal when they want to do it unlike a male doing any activity that is not defined as totally masculine is.


Actually females can be quite cruel about such things, depending on the group. The "Barbie Doll' type crowd can especially be very cruel when it comes to such things.

I guess I can understand what the "Barbie Doll" type is. In my drawer full of definitions, it describes the undeveloped and immature female, the "Valley Girl" teenager, of the "gag me with a spoon" ilk. I guess some such girls grow up into shallow, superficial women, but when I close my eyes and actually picture the women that I know I can't think of anyone who would put down a male for enjoying art, appreciating fashion or design, wishing to decorate a room or bake a cake, or any other activities that some people here define as being feminine.

I hope my SO will forgive me for saying this, but she told me years ago it was her femme side that gave him permission to appreciate and begin to collect art a decade ago. I've also read on a few occasions here that ironically, many CDers fall into stereotypically male professions, such as airline pilots, or in the sciences, engineering, or IT fields. I've long suspected that CDers (I'm reluctant to say "some" or "many") do build an inordinately strong male veneer while they are growing up in order to prevent the world from seeing their more vulnerable, feminine proclivities and so there is a stronger demarcation between what is "feminine" and what is "masculine" for them. This may make them shy about saying they want to bake a cake, or knit a scarf, or having a strong opinion about what color should go on the wall, or even think they will be rejected by others for doing these things?

Lots of our discussions here revolve around concepts and general statements, and it's true that some sections of the socio-economic strata may be more or less tolerant of a guy who bakes a cake, for example. It's very difficult to make statements that will be universally applicable since obviously what might fly in the middle of NYC won't fly in a small town in a conservative state. But still, I honestly don't believe there are as many "feminine" vs. "masculine" activities as many members here seem to think, of course other than actually dressing or presenting in the gender opposite than birth, especially once people move away from the often less tolerant teen-age or young adult age.

[Badtranny]

I've long suspected that CDers (I'm reluctant to say "some" or "many") do build an inordinately strong male veneer while they are growing up in order to prevent the world from seeing their more vulnerable, feminine proclivities and so there is a stronger demarcation between what is "feminine" and what is "masculine" for them. This may make them shy about saying they want to bake a cake, or knit a scarf, or having a strong opinion about what color should go on the wall, or even think they will be rejected by others for doing these things?

Reine,
You have touched on something here that is really quite significant. Perhaps brilliant, but I don't want to be too presumptuous ;-)
I have something to say about this, but I don't really have the time right now so I will revisit this tomorrow evening after work.
Suffice to say, you have literally nailed a pattern of behavior in TG people of all flavors.
I promise to elaborate soon.

[busker]

No, Ionis, to spell it out, I mean that women are just as capable as men at being good at math. :)
Actually Reine, I think almost all the tests and studies done in the past decade seem to suggest or confirm that women are BETTER than men and there are now more women earning PhDs then men. Too many men have fixations on the Budweiser girls.

[Sue101]

This leads to a very very nasty world. A place where parents of a child could feel legitimately angry towards a person for "trying to make my son gay". It would increase hate crimes towards us all by validating the notion that CDers or gay people are bred, not born, and that people can be "turned". So not only do the ideas you've presented not sit right with my own personal experience, or the stories I've read on these forums, but they lead to very dangerous places.

I am not sure why you have to inject melodrama into the discussion. There is nothing dangerous about suggesting that behaviors originate from a lifetime of experience, feelings and interaction with your surroundings and that can be targeted as a means to a cure. Let me be melodramatic. You say that this comes from nature. Well that leads to very dangerous places. Parents may begin screening pregnancies to eliminate the chance their child would be gay or transgendered. Science will seek to genetically engineer DNA if they discover possible markers for gayness or transgenderism. You cannot "cure" a child's feelings and emotions or how that child perceives the world but you can target DNA and hormones if you claim this is from nature.


I feel you're targetting a specific group of CDers. For instance, you specifically stated that it doesn't apply to TS folk. So TS people you say have gender identity issues "from the get-go". This strongly points towards nature as a significant factor, and I think this also extends across the spectrum of T-ness. Some of us are born with varying levels of predisposition towards the opposite gender.
OK some points to comment on. Yes I am discussing a specific group of crossdressers, that is obvious from my description. This is the group who had a normal male upbringing but then began crossdressing in the years before or after puberty. This group makes up the majority of crossdressers. I am not saying my theory describes everyone but I am putting forward an idea which fits the facts better than just saying it is nature which has serious discrepancies.

Early onset transsexualism does not necessarily point to nature. It is just as likely it arises during the first two years of life when a baby's self identification process takes place. Babies do not acquire self awareness until their second birthday.

What is this predisposition? I hear about it all the time, its a great concept but how about defining what it is. Most crossdressers develop crossdressing out of the blue at mid to late childhood. Why only then? This concept of predisposition does not answer why boys were happy to be boys growing up, it does not explain the timing crossdressing develops.


You mention a lot in your idea that feeling a disconnect between our inner selves and what we see masculinity to be is what makes us feel the need to explore other options, but where does that feeling come from in the first place? Now that is an easy one. Since masculinity is a social construct most boys do not fit naturally into its borders. Like trying to insert a square into a round hole, it is necessary to knock off the corners to make it fit. That is why everyone needs to be conditioned so thoroughly. Some boys just become aware of the process, become aware that they may not end up as the masculine man society is trying to produce.


When I came out to my parents I didn't say "and it's because of how you raised me". I was likely always going to be this way with or without them. Very true but that also fits my theory. Your feelings about masculinity have got little to do with your parents unless they totally dominated every aspect of your life. Your understanding of gender comes from observations of life in general, peer pressure and exposure to huge amounts of media. This has little to nothing to do with how you were raised.

[Sue101]

It could simply be the desire for a particular type of pleasure. It could be and if it were a non taboo subject then I would say that it is almost certainly the case. But you cannot ignore the taboo in male crossdressing. As boys were were conditioned to never think of such a thing. We were conditioned to consider it demeaning to our self-esteem. We understood the dangers if we dared to step into the minefield that surrounds femininity.

Here is the bigger picture. There are forces which attract us and forces which repel us. In a binary system like gender that means there are factors pushing us away from masculinity and towards femininity. Crossdressers always focus exclusively on the forces of attraction. "I am this way because I am part female so naturally am attracted to femininity" Everyone seemingly totally ignores the factors that repelled them from masculinity. I think both factors are always in play but obviously the balance is different for everyone.

Femininity absolutely does offer huge power and privilege but boys are conditioned to be blind to that. Instead we are trained to believe in the inferiority of girls. So if we cannot see the power of femininity and dare not voluntarily enter the minefield then I suggest that something needs to give us a push. Once we are in the minefield we discover it was just a ruse to scare us away and we walk over and discover for ourselves the delights of femininity, after which we are hooked for life and all we remember is what appeals to us and gives us so much satisfaction.

[ReineD]

Since masculinity is a social construct most boys do not fit naturally into its borders. Like trying to insert a square into a round hole, it is necessary to knock off the corners to make it fit. That is why everyone needs to be conditioned so thoroughly. Some boys just become aware of the process, become aware that they may not end up as the masculine man society is trying to produce.

When I read this, I'm reminded of Neo who believed the world he lived in was real even though he always sensed a disconnect, until he discovered the ugly (or beautifully real, depending on how you want to look at it) world of subterranean warfare. :)

But, that was a movie. You are suggesting that the world has conspired to make boys' lives miserable. And for what purpose? Wouldn't the boys have had a say in this too, if they felt they did not universally and naturally fit within the confines? Just like women in the western world rebelled against the idea of being chattel and hopefully others in less developed nations will follow suite? (They did not rebel against being feminine, even though the style of femininity has changed since then.)

When you say that masculinity is a construct, you are ignoring all the biological differences between boys and girls, that do play a role in their personality developments, and I'm not just talking about genitalia. Even medical science doesn't have all the answers. The jury is still out on the role of hormones in utero for TGs, or if there is evidence of trans or gay genes. At any rate, there is much more out there that we don't know, compared to the little that we do. Until then, I suppose it is open for interpretation, but you'll be hard pressed to convert everyone to a theory that goes against thousands of years of having had gender as the major separator of the human race, without any proof other than speculation.

But then again, you may have an entirely different definition of masculinity than I do, and perhaps this forms the basis of our disagreement.

[Sue101]

Reine it is hardly a conspiracy to make boys' lives miserable. Gender roles are designed to make society more efficient. Everyone knows their role, their place, knows what society expects of them. Follow the rules and you are accepted and rewarded. Following gender roles usually makes you happier. But there is a price to pay in such a black and white division between the sexes. Women know all about that, men do not except for the ones (ie us) who woke up one day and realized that it is ok to cross the gender divide.

Women rebelled against their gender role because it was too constrictive and it ended up robbing them of equality. Women did not fight against the gender system itself - women still want to feel feminine and men masculine.

Biological differences do exist and have an impact on how you develop. I am not disagreeing with you at all. But masculinity/femininity are social constructs and only have context within a social setting. They change from culture to culture and change over time. This is something you have to learn and copy and perfect to attain conformity and be rewarded. Remove society and masculinity/femininity becomes meaningless and irrelevant. It is like claiming men and women are different so this means one gender are better drivers or derives more pleasure from driving than the other etc. It is seeing differences because we expect them.

As for a theory stretching back thousands of years this has no bearing on its factual truth. Believing it does is merely flat earth syndrome. In fact any belief stretching back thousands of years is almost certainly wrong since it originates from a period of ignorance and superstition. And this is not speculation. This is why I suggested buying books covering this subject so you can read about the numerous studies that have been conducted into what are the real differences if any between the sexes.

Social gender division is broke. Feminism proved that it was an archaic superstition grounded on beliefs that males and females were fundamentally different. Similar to the idea that people of different ethnicity were different. Whether it was gender, race or religion, people were always using superficiality to claim fundamental differences. We all know white people think differently from black people......

[kendra_gurl]

A better comparison would be a girl dressing as a man because she wants to project a masculine persona and feel like a man.

Again you are validating my point. Yes your example would be more like a Crossdresser but my point was about everyone having traits of both their parents.

Females dress masculine all the time WITHOUT it be overtly obvious. No they don't play dress up and apply fake beards and tape their chest down trying to present as men like FtM's do. These are the ones your example would apply to.

After reading this thread I'm thinking that Enviroment is being left out of the equasion. If you keep in mind the very simple and general rule of accpetable dress code by everyday John or Jane Public, the enviroment your in plays a big part of how you can dress.

If men and women get togeather to play sports togeather they both can dress exactly the same and its always acceptable male attire. I doubt you will ever see a male playing in the lingerie football bowl.

As with REINE's example sure a guy can appreciate going to the art gallery with females all dressed to the nines and appreciate the art and wine but they can't dress the same way without causing a scene.

I am not saying this is right or wrong. My point is just that females can openly and freely express both sides of their gender and both their parents traits they got from nature and nurture.

Males can do the same thing too untill they try to dress the part and that is when they get noticed and ridiculed by many for it but they are only doing what females take for granted and can do comfortably.

So what does the Crossdresser have left to do to satisfy his desire to expresses his feminine traits? Some do it very much with everyday actions. Those things that so many SO's of CD's love about them. For others they totally transform themselves into passable visions of a female to avoid the ridicule of others for looking like a guy in a dress.

[Lorileah]

100+ posts here and you still haven't reached a consensus? What is this Congress?


... when I close my eyes and actually picture the women that I know I can't think of anyone who would put down a male for enjoying art, appreciating fashion or design, wishing to decorate a room or bake a cake, or any other activities that some people here define as being feminine.
I don't believe that is a female issue at all I think it is the male issue and the desire to have your friends and co-workers accept you into the male fold. The only people I can remember specifically putting a man down for liking art, or nature (where it does not end in killing something or someone being injured or peeing on a fire) or cooking (except on a grill) are men who as part of the male ritual are required by law to "dis" other males. There is an exception to this rule and that is when a female requires her "man" fit a mold she has been taught since daddy read her fairy tales. The man must be big strong handsome and fearless. He fights dragons, and saves damsels in distress. Now it is OK for someone else's man to like opera but the women who buy into a fairy tale world want their men to not like anything but hard rock or classic country. (Yes I know all this is generalization but read the "My wife is leaving me" threads.) That is in this society nurture induced because no one has to kill to survive anymore. In general women say they want "kind sweet caring nurturing artistic funny compassionate...etc. men but then they go for the crude, rude and often overtly apish men (yes I know that is generalization but read the "My wife is leaving me" threads). This is not limited to females by the way, men want the hypersexual, great cook, submissive, my eyes adore you female, as long as she doesn't do anything more than kow-tow to him (I know this is generalization but read the "My wife never dresses up so I do" threads)

I've also read on a few occasions here that ironically, many CDers fall into stereotypically male professions, such as airline pilots, or in the sciences, engineering, or IT fields. I've long suspected that CDers (I'm reluctant to say "some" or "many") do build an inordinately strong male veneer while they are growing up in order to prevent the world from seeing their more vulnerable, feminine proclivities and so there is a stronger demarcation between what is "feminine" and what is "masculine" for them. This may make them shy about saying they want to bake a cake, or knit a scarf, or having a strong opinion about what color should go on the wall, or even think they will be rejected by others for doing these things?

My profession has become predominately female in the last 20 years so I don't know what that says about me. However, the professions you state may be the ones who are least tolerant or accepting of less than masculine behavior. Maybe the reason more are represented here is that the liberal arts community is more accepting of less than masculine behavior from men so the ones who are TG in those communities are less like to come here and look for support or to complain (gee that puts me in those categories). If you are artistic then quirks are accepted as part of the deal (cutting off one's ear, chasing prostitutes in Paris). The fact that we are incongruous with expected behaviors may actually be what drives many here to seek kindred spirits. Are there more TG's in masculine jobs? I doubt it, it is just more noticeable



Lots of our discussions here revolve around concepts and general statements, and it's true that some sections of the socio-economic strata may be more or less tolerant of a guy who bakes a cake, for example. It's very difficult to make statements that will be universally applicable since obviously what might fly in the middle of NYC won't fly in a small town in a conservative state. But still, I honestly don't believe there are as many "feminine" vs. "masculine" activities as many members here seem to think, of course other than actually dressing or presenting in the gender opposite than birth, especially once people move away from the often less tolerant teen-age or young adult age.

True that but things are changing toward the better. Assigned tasks 200 years ago had a purpose. Strength was important in some while detail may have been important in others. Aggression vs compassion. This set standards that we are still redefining.

This argument will never be resolved. If it is it may signal the end to life as most on these boards know it. If it is nature then it could be bred out. If it is nurture it can taught differently. Is it the water? Is it the chemicals in our deodorant? is it just that we are cutting edge and are the ones moving to be who we are and trying to enjoy who we are because we are less involved in the day to day struggle to survive (also we are living longer and guys get bored quickly and need new challenges like trying really hard to "blend in" as a female.

The only truly gender specific thing is the ability to impregnate and the ability to conceive and give birth. The first may be gone by the time we all reach old age. The second part can be eliminated soon after. So after all the arguing I have to give nurture the upper hand because without societal rules we would just be members of society who are accepted. Do I feel like a woman? Do I feel that I have gotten the short end of the stick? Do I feel that I am misunderstood? There is one thing I feel, and right now I feel like a cheeseburger, must be about lunch time

[Sue101]

100+ posts here and you still haven't reached a consensus? What is this Congress? I will only repsond to the lady from Denver is she agrees to reduce taxes, raise spending and lower the debt all at the same time.


That is in this society nurture induced because no one has to kill to survive anymore. I am in whole-hearted agreemnt with everything you said except this one line. The point about hunting was to provide for your family. Today the hunt is for money. Men still have to prove to women we can provide. Ask a single unemployed man with no money in his pocket how many dates he gets. Unless he is a hunk the answer will be zip all.


Are there more TG's in masculine jobs? I doubt it, it is just more noticeable In fact almost certainly it will be less since most of us are not interested in entering into a macho environment where we would feel both uncomfortable and nervous our secret will somehow be unveiled.


is it just that we are cutting edge and are the ones moving to be who we are I wish we were on the cutting edge but I doubt it. We do what we do because we feel compelled to do so. It is a different motivation from men in general comprehending the male gender role is constrictive and sexist and wishing to break out and grab some equality. But on the off-chance that will happen some day we can always pretend to be the heroic explorers into the gender jungle. We can proudly say "Been there, done that!"

[ReineD]

As with REINE's example sure a guy can appreciate going to the art gallery with females all dressed to the nines and appreciate the art and wine but they can't dress the same way without causing a scene.




Females dress masculine all the time WITHOUT it be overtly obvious.


Now it is OK for someone else's man to like opera but the women who buy into a fairy tale world want their men to not like anything but hard rock or classic country. (Yes I know all this is generalization but read the "My wife is leaving me" threads.)

But that's just it! We're talking about two different ways in which people express gender or gender roles: activities and presentation.

Lorileah, you suggest that judging by the "my wife is leaving me" threads, women are intolerant of men who like to bake cakes for example. I disagree. First, if you get both sides of the story from these threads, I'd bet my bottom dollar there is much more that OPs either don't discuss, or they are unable to see because there is not enough communication. Second, give me a man who gets up on Saturday morning and has fun in the kitchen, and believe me most women would not complain. There may well be some activities that in some circles are viewed with a raised eyebrow if a man engages in them, maybe joining a quilting bee in small town America with senior women for example, even though there are no doubt quilting groups in NYC where both women and men participate. But over all I think the division of female vs. male activities has changed considerably, especially now that more women are in the workforce and there are more men and women who are divorced or single and must undertake a variety of tasks in order to be self-sufficient.

As to presentation, I agree that a man who presents feminine is not accepted. Presentation is a major indication of how we see ourselves, and when a man wishes to present as a woman, it looks to those who are unfamiliar with the concept as if he is saying he does not wish to be a man. A guy wearing a man skirt (like Jive Turkey) I think has a better chance to be accepted than a guy wearing makeup and a frilly dress, who aims to present as a woman. And although FtMs might not be as villified as CDers, they do not find universal acceptance and they are often rejected by their families. But to say that a woman who wears pants is masculine is just not true, not in our day and age. Besides, Kendra, in your avatar you are doing a lot more than just wearing a skirt. :)

So, we have two camps in the presentation debate: those who wish for an outwardly looking gender neutral world and who say there should be no gender separation into how people should present and everyone should be allowed to wear what they please, and those who say there is a difference between how most men and women see themselves, and this will never change.

[GingerLeigh]

After reading all the replies to the OP, anything I say here is just too simplistic but here goes. I've been fascinated with women's clothing since before I really understood sex, gender, etc. It only became a sexual thing after puberty, then the sexual aspect waned in my 30's. Sure, nurture played a part in my crossdressing, but like it has been said time and again. If I wasn't predisposed to this behavior, I would be as normal as the next swinging d@#k.

[Sue101]

those who say there is a difference between how most men and women see themselves, and this will never change. Reine sorry if this looks like I am always picking on you, I'm not, you are just a good debater! but I cant let you get away with this one. There has been a huge change in how women see themselves over the past 100 years. A woman alive in the 19th century would be shocked how masculine today's women are. Everything from clothes, attitude, social roles, sexual roles, work roles - they have all seen a massive upheaval with women moving lock, stock and barrel into male territory. Things do change.

Which leads me to my second point. Kendra discussed women wearing masculine clothes, you repsond with the sole focus on pants. Masculine clothes are much more than just pants. Everything from shoes to hats, waistcoats and suspenders, even male hairstyles, military gear and underwear ALL of it has been integrated into female fashion. There isn't anything left that women have not acquired. Lets leave behind the question about if this crossdessing or not and focus on the pertinant point why so much of the female wardrobe mimics male clothes. If we agree that clothing sends out important messages about who we are then what message are 21st century women telling us about themselves?

[Adriennegrl]

Not to interrupt the debate but I had another thought to add to my basic viewpoint (still haven't read this thread in detail). I mentioned my learned memories earlier and another thought came to me today; my parents told me they were trying for a daughter when they had me. That may not hold up to genetics but it's a thought... they also gave me a bisex name, go figure.

[Lorileah]

Lorileah, you suggest that judging by the "my wife is leaving me" threads, women are intolerant of men who like to bake cakes for example. I disagree. First, if you get both sides of the story from these threads, I'd bet my bottom dollar there is much more that OPs either don't discuss, or they are unable to see because there is not enough communication. Second, give me a man who gets up on Saturday morning and has fun in the kitchen, and believe me most women would not complain. There may well be some activities that in some circles are viewed with a raised eyebrow if a man engages in them, maybe joining a quilting bee in small town America with senior women for example, even though there are no doubt quilting groups in NYC where both women and men participate. But over all I think the division of female vs. male activities has changed considerably, especially now that more women are in the workforce and there are more men and women who are divorced or single and must undertake a variety of tasks in order to be self-sufficient.

You know we agree on this. Having been here 2 and 1/2 years we have been on the same side most if not all the time. And I agree that in MY experience, the females in MY relationships loved my cooking and taking on other jobs especially when it was a surprise (and I wasn't told to do it...over and over an over). But when I do read the "My wife doesn't..." threads I believe that maybe I am in a minority more often than not. I know that is not true because if the sea is calm and the boat steady, very few boast that on the boards. The point is that society (nurture) does put a heavy burden on both sides. You have to give tons of credit to the GG's who look beyond that. And as you know I believe that love trumps anything you are "told" is correct.

Like in my profession, it was often considered that women could not ever do the work. After all how could a 100 pound female wrangle a 1500 pound animal, the answer..drugs :) Now more than half are female and I am encountering the flip side of that coin. I have been told I could not possibly be gentle enough or compassionate enough to do the work. That's Ok I know what I am what I can do and to be honest I think being a bit more"femme" has advantages to my bedside manner. I look forward to the day when labels of gender are not part of doing the job. I also look forward to end of "Man up" "Grow a pair" and "Take it like a man" as well as "Don't be such a girl" or "You are such a princess." (OK I like being called a princess).

[ReineD]

Reine sorry if this looks like I am always picking on you, I'm not, you are just a good debater! but I cant let you get away with this one. There has been a huge change in how women see themselves over the past 100 years. A woman alive in the 19th century would be shocked how masculine today's women are. Everything from clothes, attitude, social roles, sexual roles, work roles - they have all seen a massive upheaval with women moving lock, stock and barrel into male territory. Things do change.

Sue. :) I say this with all the possible love and goodwill in the world, but ARRGGH! :Pullhair:

Lol. I don't mind you picking apart my posts. :hugs: Forgive me, but in plain English, I am convinced there is something you simply don't get, which is, women have not forgone an iota of femininity by changing with the times and styles during the 20th century. They still see themselves as women and if they are hetero, they still want to be in relationships with men. It doesn't matter who does the laundry and who mows the lawn, or the fact they both make as much money and this is required to send their kids to college.

(BTW, I think that a woman of the 17th century would be just as shocked to see a woman of the 19th century.)

If a man wishes to wear a skirt sans makeup, forms, wigs, etc, (like Jive Turkey in most of his pics) then you might make a case that he would be on par with the fashion changes among women in the last hundred years. BUT, if he wears breast forms, hip pads, makeup to look feminine, and otherwise attempts to emulate a woman's form and mannerisms, this is not at all parallel to the change in fashion in women's clothing over the last hundred hears. You don't see the average non-trans GG who wears a pantsuit, or jeans & Tshirt, attempting to adopt a "male walk", nor does she purposely belch, pass gas, scratch herself in the groin, color on a 5 o'clock shadow, or pack, or do anything that she might think the stereotypical male does.

Fundamentally, gender is not a question of what one "does" in terms of chosen activities such as jobs or pastimes, nor is it a question of who is smarter at math and who is better at knitting, nor is it even a question of who is the most nurturing, since men are fully capable of raising kids by themselves. Innate gender is rather how one "sees" oneself, and the way we exercise our choices of self-presentation reflects at a very deep level how we see ourselves. A non-trans guy who identifies solidly as a guy will not want to wear anything that fashion dictates is clothing designed for the contemporary woman, even if it is just wearing a girl's Tshirt and jeans.

Last Saturday I went to a bar to hear a local band and I saw a woman and a man dancing together, both wearing jeans and Tshirts. It was unmistakable who was the woman and who was the man ... from their facial features, their body shapes, the way they moved, the way they looked at each other in the eyes and smiled, and if you looked very closely, even the style of their jeans and Tshirts. It is beyond my power to accurately describe this very commonplace image in just one sentence. And, there was no way this woman dancing was any less feminine or more masculine than the girl dancing right next to her wearing a short dress. She just was dressed more casually.

Now. Having said all of this about women wanting men, etc, this does not mean that I am saying that CDers shouldn't express freely who they are. I think there is a segment of our society that acknowledges non-binary gender because they've been educated about it, and I include myself. CDers should express themselves and just own who they are! But to say that if men were not socially constructed to behave a certain way, they would naturally wish to look less male and more female from within the fashions of their time, is way beyond the reality that I see and know, no matter who theorizes what in popular books about gender roles. :)

[SweetIonis]

Again you are validating my point. Yes your example would be more like a Crossdresser but my point was about everyone having traits of both their parents.

Females dress masculine all the time WITHOUT it be overtly obvious. No they don't play dress up and apply fake beards and tape their chest down trying to present as men like FtM's do. These are the ones your example would apply to.


A little book keeping here. What you said exactly was:

We who enjoy crossdressing and expressing our feminine side are being held hostage by our perceptions of how others will react when in reality we are not much different from the average female living her life expressing both her parents traits.

Here first person plural is used. What is the activity that is enjoyed? Crossdressing and expressing a feminine side. So what we have so far is a man who enjoys two things:

1. Crossdressing
2. Expressing a feminine side

Then you make the comparison to the average female living her life expressing both her parents traits. My point is that there is substantial difference in the average female you mentioned, and a man engaged in crossdressing and expressing a feminine side. The difference is so substantial that to say that they are similar is a distortion. The thing that you appear to fail to see is that motivation makes the manifestation of the external behavior to project quite different things to an observer. Not only for the external observer is there a substantial difference, but internally for the performer, there is a substantial difference in state of mind. And because of these internal and external differences, the comparison is a distortion. Therefore, if you are going to compare a man engaged in crossdressing to express a feminine side, a more accurate comparison would be to a female engaged in crossdressing to express a masculine side. Otherwise, your comparison is simply bending reality by turning MtoF crossdressing and expressing femininity to an AVERAGE girl who may simply like to do some things that a boy would like to do. Unlike a man engaged in MtoF crossdressing, that AVERAGE girl is not trying to express masculinity and that's a BIG difference. To give a simple example, a person who has taken a knife and cut someone in malice, cannot say that he is no different from a surgeon who cuts a person to heal him. Although both are cutting someone else, there is a substantial difference in motivation. And because of the difference in motivation, the comparison is a distortion.

[SweetIonis]

Here is the bigger picture. There are forces which attract us and forces which repel us. In a binary system like gender that means there are factors pushing us away from masculinity and towards femininity. Crossdressers always focus exclusively on the forces of attraction. "I am this way because I am part female so naturally am attracted to femininity" Everyone seemingly totally ignores the factors that repelled them from masculinity. I think both factors are always in play but obviously the balance is different for everyone.


I suppose my point is that I feel that you have placed an over emphasis on the "pushing away from masculinity" stuff while brushing off the pulling towards femininity. As you indicated the balance is different for everyone, and that balance can vary in the individual depending on the time an circumstance. I want to put forward the notion that the phenomenon of crossdressing can be instigated by an intense desire to feel the pleasure experienced by the opposite sex WITHOUT a substantial component of wanting to escape some pressure being felt due to perceived duties associated with ones sex that are of an imperative nature. That is not to exclude the case where there is a substantial component of wanting to escape those duties. However, I don't think it's accurate to say that feature is a NECESSARY component to have the behavior manifest.

[Alice Torn]

It might be. My dad, and all his sons have fetishes, and I have found a few old wigs in th garage, and other places. My dad was upset, that my mom's clothes were thrown away, when the feds raided the place a few yrs ago. My mom is in a nursing home.

[Speck]

I think it's interesting to speculate but there's a point at which a puzzle is too difficult to maintian my interest. I've spent countless hours on researching this topic. There's just not enough information but all theories are good ones until proven wrong.

So in the spirit of just tossing out some thoughts...

I'm a GG who is a feminist. I was convnced that nurture accounted for women being viewed as "the weaker sex". So when I decided to have children, I swore that whether I had boys or girls, I would not do anything to direct their play toward anything male or female. Then, I had a boy. The only TV show he was allowed to watch was Barney. My ex husband (his Dad) was not into sports. Guess what? When he was just a toddler in his high chair, he made a gun out of a piece of toast and pretended he was shooting. That's just one example. So in my opinion, there are differences between the sexes that start in the womb and continue throughout development. But I also believe society has magnified the differences to ridiculous proportions. I believe that none of the world religions did us any favours. I believe there are more differences between culture and race than there are between the sexes. If society didn't have such a hard time with TGs, I bet there would be some who got the best of both genders and would be revered and some who got the worst of both genders and would make horrible people...and everything in between. I see it on this site. Male/female anatomy is fairly easy to determine. Gender identity...not so much. You have those who just like the feel of the fabric, those who do it to relieve stress, those who have found living two lives comfortable enough to be happy and those whose "bell goes off". Some have had healthy childhoods and some come from troubled homes. To me this topic is fascinating. On a good day, I feel that knowing a TG has brought a certain richness and colour to my life. Other days...I just want to scream at the insignficance of gender when the things that matter most seem to have no gender.

That said, I acknowledge that as a GG, I have no clue what being TG'd is really like. My hat goes off to all of you who are making a positive impact on the universe regardless of what gender you happen to feel on the inside.

Speck

[Badtranny]

I've long suspected that CDers (I'm reluctant to say "some" or "many") do build an inordinately strong male veneer while they are growing up in order to prevent the world from seeing their more vulnerable, feminine proclivities and so there is a stronger demarcation between what is "feminine" and what is "masculine" for them. This may make them shy about saying they want to bake a cake, or knit a scarf, or having a strong opinion about what color should go on the wall, or even think they will be rejected by others for doing these things?

This hit so close to home that I had to stew on it for awhile before I could comment.

I remember being very young (6 or 7) and wondering why I was being treated like a boy. Just a few years later I was being treated by the alpha males as an object of derision. I learned quickly that I was indeed a boy and I'd better start acting like it, thus began a life of pretending. It's funny to look back on it, because most of that macho stuff didn't come naturally to me so I was doing my best to emulate what I THOUGHT a guy would be like. Think about that scene in the Birdcage where Robin Williams is trying to teach Nathan Lane to walk like a man. I wasn't that cartoonish of course, but the principle is the same. I was trying to be "like" a man and in doing so I clearly wasn't comfortable in my own masculinity.

So even though I loved shopping, I would never admit it because that wasn't manly. I didn't really like sports, but I could never say that because it wasn't manly. It gets so silly that even innocuous things like music would fall victim to my manly test. I loved Culture Club as a kid, but guess what? I would never admit to such a thing in public. I didn't want to do anything that would lift the veil of my charade. I studied Kung Fu, I played Hockey, I raced Motocross, I got into construction. I was obsessed with proving to everyone that I wasn't the sissy that they said I was. I was so terrified of slipping that I didn't even drink alcohol throughout my entire 20's because I was afraid I would swish a little if I got drunk.

So Reine, you're dead on but it's not just for CD's it's for all of us who have struggled with our identity or sexuality. The pressure to be a "man" was enormous when I was growing up and I believe that I'll be forever damaged to a certain extent because of it.

[SweetIonis]

Biological differences do exist and have an impact on how you develop. I am not disagreeing with you at all. But masculinity/femininity are social constructs and only have context within a social setting. They change from culture to culture and change over time. This is something you have to learn and copy and perfect to attain conformity and be rewarded. Remove society and masculinity/femininity becomes meaningless and irrelevant.

Sorry to jump in here Sue, but I have to disagree strongly with this. It's more accurate to say that masculinity and femininity are MENTAL constructs that are affected by the social setting. They are products of sex desire, without which they would not exist, at least not as we understand them. They are things that are innate, within us from birth and grow a particular way depending on our environment. It's just like a flower, there are different ones, and they will grow different ways, depending on how you take care of them, but they share certain characteristics by which one can differentiate a flower from say a tree. Furthermore there are different types of flowers, and one can differentiate roses from gardenias.

Some males have that thing in them to behave in a feminine way as females. The fact that they naturally feel that way, despite environmental factors, indicates that masculinity and femininity are not SOLELY products of environmental factors, for if it were, then the environment should produce BASICALLY the same result for males. However, you can put two males in basically the same environment and get DRASTICALLY different results with regards to masculine and feminine behavior. One will behave in the most masculine of ways, while one will behave in the most feminine of ways. This result is impossible to explain by assigning the causality to environmental factors alone.

I would dare say that many men who crossdress are stunned when they find that putting on a piece of a women's clothing can all of a sudden make them feel so extremely feminine, with little prior experience. If it was something that was the result of environmental factors, we should observe such strong feelings only after years of conditioning. The fact that they CAN take place without such conditioning indicates that it is something that is innate, an internal mental construct, as opposed to being a social construct that is imposed on the individual.

[retrofitme]

As the OP, I'm really intrigued by all this debate! Good Stuff!

That said, I do want to emphasis that I want this to be a constructive conversation. My goal here is to help people work out for themselves and come to terms with their development as CDers (myself included). I want to help people answer these questions and know others' experiences and views, so they might grow towards self acceptance. Honestly, I have not entirely accepted my CDing tendencies. I have not come to terms yet with who I am - but seeing other's perspectives on the topic helps me to learn more about myself, and that's a good thing.

-Retro

[Sue101]

Reine

Please don't tear out any more hair but...

women have not forgone an iota of femininity by changing with the times and styles during the 20th century. They still see themselves as women and if they are hetero, they still want to be in relationships with men. femininity has nothing to do women seeing themselves as women or sexuality. To me femininity/masculinity is a state of mind/being wherein the person through the numerous means of communication from presentation, body language, attitude etc conveys the core values that society constitutes as the exclusive gender characteristics. I don't believe men are automatically masculine or women feminine. A man could have a typical male attitude and mentality and have a masculine job but that has no bearing on whether he feels or projects masculinity. I don't know how you can say the enormous changes women have gone through in the last 100 years had no effect on their gender perceptions. Men are not as masculine as they once were and changes in male gender roles are significantly less altered then for females.


Then, I had a boy. The only TV show he was allowed to watch was Barney. My ex husband (his Dad) was not into sports. Guess what? When he was just a toddler in his high chair, he made a gun out of a piece of toast and pretended he was shooting. Speck I absolutely agree with you that society exaggerates gender differences to a ridiculous degree and this is actually very unhelpful. Men and women do have differences but they are minor and irrelevant.

Your observation about your son reminded me of a similar scenario Reine spoke about. Despite your best intentions there is no way to shield your child from gender stereotypes, they are all around us. Even songs and fairly tales are loaded with gender messages. You say he was only allowed to watch Barney so where did he learn about guns? Clearly he has been exposed to other tv shows or other media sources. Unfortunately it is a futile exercise to try to shape his gender ideals because boys learn how to behave from other boys. No matter how much you isolate him as a baby as soon as he begins school all your efforts will be undone in an instant.

[Sue101]

I suppose my point is that I feel that you have placed an over emphasis on the "pushing away from masculinity" stuff while brushing off the pulling towards femininity. Yes it probably does come across that way. I am having to fight against the prevailing wind in which popular theories on emphasize only the attraction factors so I end up shouting louder to make myself heard. I do agree it is not necessary there has to a repelling factor but I feel in most cases both factors are present. Moreover in these cases it is the factors repelling us from particular aspects of masculinity which kick-start off the entire process. Its significance is to help explain why a sudden feeling of attraction to femininity apparently occurs out of the blue for boys who are otherwise typical boyish boys.


It's more accurate to say that masculinity and femininity are MENTAL constructs that are affected by the social setting. Are they not the flip side of the same coin. People create society and society's rules are imposed on the people who created the society. It is a revolving door where individual's wants are assimilated into the mixing pond and then an aggregate behavior is constructed that everyone has to agree to align themselves to. The problem is the aggregate behavior can be influenced by other factors like superstition and the need for the society to survive in competition with others. This ends up skewing the social behaviors into very artificial areas.


Some males have that thing in them to behave in a feminine way as females What does this mean? Where does this feminine thing come from? You are correct to say siblings can have very different personalities but that is the key to explain why one can end up masculine and the other feminine. Despite sharing the same environment our unique personality traits will interface differently with the environment. So one brother may be up shy and submissive and end up developing into a crossdressers while his outgoing brother does not.

There are examples of twins where one brother is a crossdresser and the other not. These cases rule out the possibility that genetics or hormone washes as both have the same exposure. What we do know about twins is they always have unique personalities so they end up being as distinct a person as anyone else.

It is not environmental factors that create crossdressers but the interaction of unique personalities with the environment and the resulting feelings produced from that process which then have to be aligned with social gender expectations.


If it was something that was the result of environmental factors, we should observe such strong feelings only after years of conditioning I disagree, you can instantly fall in love with something that you have no prior experience of. Happens all the time even if you are conditioned against something. For example a child raised as a vegetarian may be conditioned to find meat detestable but one day may break the conditioning, eat a hamburger and never look back.

[kendra_gurl]

But to say that a woman who wears pants is masculine is just not true, not in our day and age. Besides, Kendra, in your avatar you are doing a lot more than just wearing a skirt. :)
.

Reine: I'm not saying that makes them masculine at all. Just that they can dress in a more traditional male form of dress and not be thought of as trying to be male.

I did not intend to bring up the debate about girls dress like guys all the time argument, I'm only talking about the OP of Nature vs Nurture and how both sexes have got to have traits of both parents but females are the only ones who can express those traits in the form of how they dress.


So what does the Crossdresser have left to do to satisfy his desire to expresses his feminine traits? Some do it very much with everyday actions. Those things that so many SO's of CD's love about them. For others they totally transform themselves into passable visions of a female to avoid the ridicule of others for looking like a guy in a dress.

I believe this statement defines very well my Avatar

[sometimes_miss]

The problem here is that people like to find ONE answer; the definitive reason for our behavior. But we crossdress for a variety of reasons, so you're not going to be able to pinpoint one reason as a cause for the behavior or desire for it. And, you will also find an assortment of combinations of reasons, which alters the 'experiment' even more. There are people who always felt they were the opposite gender, which supports the 'nature only' side, and then there are those of us who didn't start out that way at all, but were gradually conditioned into it. Then you have those who insist they have no cross gender feelings, yet feel the tremendous urge to dress up and act as feminine as possible, even to the point of trying to sexually attract the males that they consciously believe they have absolutely no interest in at all.
One thing we do know, is that our brains aren't 'finalized' at birth'; there is still a lot of development going on, and outside influences affect how we wind up just as our genes do (and we also know that some of the outside influences result in permanent changes in our personalities due to the way our brains respond to the chemical results of those occurances). The you have to add in all the repressed feelings that some of us have but cannot ever bear to admit to anyone, or even to ourselves, usually due to the immense guilt imposed on us by society regarding any homosexual thoughts or behavior.
Basically, I think it's more important how we deal with who and what we are, rather than forever dwell on how we got that way. But it does help to know where certain feelings and desires come from, which allows us to know how to react to them when they happen.
Confused enough now?
Sorry about that.

[Samantha B L]

I did some reading years ago and there are mental health professionals and researchers who beleive there is an inherited factor in CD'ing and that CD'ing is,a least in part,neurological or hormonal in nature. And there are those in the mental health feild who've thought so even back in the "dark ages" of the mental health interests in the thirties and the forties. I've noticed since I've been in the forum not many people agree with this. Just let me say that the "inherited factor" argument takes away a lot of blame that goes with the attitude that some people take that "those goddan perverts can help it, stealin' ladies underwear off the neighbors laundry line. Draft 'em into the service,that'll teach 'em a lesson". The inherited factor argument simplifies things and chases away a lot of demons.



As an afterthought I would be careful about going into any kind of talk therapy with a doctor or a counselar who isn't familiar with LGBT issues. You could find yourself being stuck with somebody who uses "shut up and do what I say" tactics in order to literally bend and twist you out of crossdressing. But the idea that CD'ing is definately for real and that it's just a part of some men and women's personalities and nothing to be overwrought about is,I think,in part,best promoted by the inherited factor argument. I know a lot of you m to f's and maybe a lot of you f to m's don't agree with me,but the argument simplifies things and makes a calmer atmosphere and after all,it pokes holes in the idea a CD can be locked up and cured. Which isn't what any of us want in the first place.

[SweetIonis]

Moreover in these cases it is the factors repelling us from particular aspects of masculinity which kick-start off the entire process. Its significance is to help explain why a sudden feeling of attraction to femininity apparently occurs out of the blue for boys who are otherwise typical boyish boys.

That may be true in some cases. But my particular case was out of the blue. Other than being somewhat scared of talking to girls when I started puberty, I had no aversion or fear of being a male. That's just what I was. I think this idea had very little application in me starting to dress. And I think the fact that I did very, very little until I got to be an adult is a confirmation of that.



Are they not the flip side of the same coin. People create society and society's rules are imposed on the people who created the society. It is a revolving door where individual's wants are assimilated into the mixing pond and then an aggregate behavior is constructed that everyone has to agree to align themselves to.

No, I don't think they are the same coin. Although people do indeed create society, society itself is the PRODUCT of the interaction of the various aspects of the mental constructs of many individuals spanning generations, influenced by external factors that include time, place, circumstance and very importantly the ability of certain individuals to assert leadership. It is also external to the individual. Masculinity and femininity are internal and although there may be some common aspects regarding these notions in a particular society, they are still confined to the mind of the individual, who can have quite different notions than the common notions accepted by society as a whole. Society however is an external affair and it's various aspects can be observed INDEPENDENTLY of reference to the mental state of any one individual. That's a big difference.



What does this mean? Where does this feminine thing come from? You are correct to say siblings can have very different personalities but that is the key to explain why one can end up masculine and the other feminine. Despite sharing the same environment our unique personality traits will interface differently with the environment. So one brother may be up shy and submissive and end up developing into a crossdressers while his outgoing brother does not.

There are examples of twins where one brother is a crossdresser and the other not. These cases rule out the possibility that genetics or hormone washes as both have the same exposure. What we do know about twins is they always have unique personalities so they end up being as distinct a person as anyone else.

It is not environmental factors that create crossdressers but the interaction of unique personalities with the environment and the resulting feelings produced from that process which then have to be aligned with social gender expectations.

Well it appears we agree that they do not EXCLUSIVELY come from environmental factors. I would therefore say that we must conclude that there must be a biological aspect that is either the cause or symptom.



I disagree, you can instantly fall in love with something that you have no prior experience of. Happens all the time even if you are conditioned against something. For example a child raised as a vegetarian may be conditioned to find meat detestable but one day may break the conditioning, eat a hamburger and never look back.

It's one thing to fall in love with something. It's quite another to be able to emote, act, and feel like the object of your affection. I can tell you for certain, that the first experience I had with this phenomenon was one of experiencing something I had never felt before. Even to this day, part of my experience is my amazement at how I can so effortlessly feel and behave in such a way when I am in that state of mind. I can assure you it is not the result of any prolonged conditioning.

[becca78]

I really like this debate and have wondered about it at times myself.
I’ve read somewhere that it is all about how much hormones you are exposed to in the womb.

Let’s take a little survey. How many of you ladies out there have a ring finger that is longer than your index finger?

This is supposed to be an indicator to how much testosterone you are exposed to in the womb & apparently the majority of men have a ring finger that is longer than the index finger. I had never looked at the length of my fingers before but after reading this I found out I do have shorter ring finger than index finger.
The real funny thing about the report I read was it said that having a shorter ring finger will make you more emotional, better at literacy & creative design, Worse at maths & spatial awareness. While yes I am more emotional than most guys I am hopeless with writing & creative design but am absolute genius at maths & have good spatial awareness.
Go figure.
Rebecca

[shayleetv]

Becca your going to go crazy trying to put yourself into a theory someone has come up with. My whole life i have had been told this and that only to find out that this and that don't fit me. My ring finger and index finger on both hands are the same length. What does that mean? Am I neutral emotionally, no I cry at most anything that is tender. I am more emotional than any woman I know. No one is a perfect example of anything that man can conceive as why we are the way we are. I am influenced by nurturing and nature. How many little boys and girls get dressed as their opposite gender when in their formative years and never become crossdressers.I was dressed by mom and later by sis. Had a great time in Cub Scout skits dressed as a girl. Even was given my WEBELOS ceremony dressed as a girl. My mom was given some drug to keep her from miscarrying me that I later found inhibited the testosterone bath I should have gotten while in the womb. By some of the things I have read about the studies on the drug I should be more TS and less of just a crossdresser. But that is the way the cookie [theory] crumbles. I am what I am and need not put blame on anything or any where, I'm here enjoying the ride!

[Claire Cook]

I have just tried to catch up with everything in this thread. Wow, lots to think about. If there is any consensus here, it seems to be that both "Nature" and "Nurture" are involved, in various combinations. I'd bet that in no two of us are the combinations the same. So here is my take. One phenomenon that biologists are getting more and more interested in are what are called "epigenetic" effects -- things that occur during development that have long-term, perhaps permanent, effects on how genes are expressed -- but they are usually not inherited. These can affect nerve development and connections, among other things. So the possibility that exposure to estrogens or other influences in the womb can affect gender things is a real one -- and can give each of us a unique "Nature" (our genes plus any of these effects) that our life experiences ("Nurture") build on. It's really something medical science should be more interested in.


I believe it is nature and some nurture. We all start out female and based on the amount of estrogen we are exposed to during early gestation we may become males. My belief is that I was exposed to a level of estrogen that result in me being male but on the feminine side of that gender. Think of a number line and macho is at one end and girly girl is at the other. I'm on the girly girl side enough to want to express my gender identity by crossdressing. My belief.

Indeed.


Ooh, ooh! I did a term paper on this very subject! Let's see if I remember it right... it's not genetic or nurture, it's the hormones you're exposed to prenatally. So, in essence, you're born that way, but it's not genetic. Anyway, certain hormones, particularly stress hormones, can rewire random parts of the brain to be more like the opposite sex's. If the part of the brain that determines what sex you're attracted to gets rewired, you wind up bisexual or gay (depending on the level). If the part of the brain that controls speech gets rewired, you SOUND like you're gay, but may or may not be. If the majority of the brain gets rewired to the opposite sex, you're transexual. These hormones can also effect the body. Like, a lot of us LOOK more feminine than most guys. (and don't mind it one bit!) But virtually all of us are in the first category. Regular guys, made more feminine by our mother's hormones.

I think this very likely.


Personally I buy into the recent research concerning brain development showing that if the hormonal washes aren't accomplished properly in males, the brain is left with some parts unchanged from the initial feminine brainstem. That can leave a male with a brain arrangement across the spectrum from primarily female to almost completely male. As has been said, it's then up to the individual to act.

tina

I thnik this is what I am trying to say.




There are examples of twins where one brother is a crossdresser and the other not. These cases rule out the possibility that genetics or hormone washes as both have the same exposure. What we do know about twins is they always have unique personalities so they end up being as distinct a person as anyone else.

It is not environmental factors that create crossdressers but the interaction of unique personalities with the environment and the resulting feealelings produced from that process which then have to be aligned with social gender expectations.



This is really interesting. Perhaps someone has pointed out somewhere in this thread that in cases of identical twins, there is some probability that if one is gay, the other will be. But the odds are 50% or less, indicating that it is not a genetic effect, but possibly an epigenetic one related to hormonal or other effects in the womb -- that act differently in the two fetuses.

Clearly we need more information!

Thus endeth the lecture..

[CynthiaD]

I always feel a little uncomfortable about nature vs nurture debates because they focus on what " makes" us do certain things. I thing that virtually everything we do is a free choice.

On the other hand, CDing is much more than the act of putting on female clothing. First, there is the desire or inclination to crossdress, and then there is the willingness to yield to the desire. In that context, the question makes perfect sense. I can't answer the question in a generic sense, but I can give a partial answer for myself. My desire to CD comes from my admiration for women. I admire strength, and most of the truly strong people in my life have been women. Women's pursuits have always interested me more than men's. I like embroidery much more than playing sports. Dressing makes me feel just that much closer to something I admire.

As far as the willingness to yield to the inclination goes, I attribute that to courage and a spirit of adventure. I think that putting on a dress is one of the bravest things I've ever done. Some feel that dressing is yielding to a weakness, by I see it as the exact opposite. I hope these perspectives help.

CK

[SweetIonis]

My desire to CD comes from my admiration for women.


I know what I mean. I think that's a strong component for why I do it. There are other factors as well, but I think that's really the root of it at the end of the day.

[Pink Person]

Gender is a formal and functional characteristic. It’s descriptive, prescriptive, and subscriptive. It describes us, is prescribed for us, and we subscribe to our own personal versions of it. The prescriptive element of gender identification and behavior doesn’t tell the whole story. In fact, it doesn’t even tell the most important part of the story. The combination of gender identification and behavior is primarily descriptive. It describes how we self-identify and want to be socially-identified. It describes how we self-direct our behavior and want it to be socially-directed.

I suppose it’s possible for a happy masculine boy to grow up to be an unhappy masculine man, but it isn’t clear why this would cause him to retreat into feminine behavior. If boyish or adolescent masculinity was satisfying then why not return to it or never leave it for gender identification and expression purposes? Furthermore, there are numerous ways to express mannish or adult masculinity. Why reject it categorically for a feminine identity and feminine behavior? If some masculine boys can become feminine as they mature, perhaps there are developmental reasons that deserve biological investigation. The social conditioning argument for this type of conversion seems pretty queer to me.

People who can’t recognize significant differences between and within groups of cisgender and transgender people are not very observant. Gender inequalities exist but they do not justify the creation of social inequalities.

[NathalieX66]

I was predispostioned to crossdress since I was 8 years old.....there was no pivotal moment that changed me. I wanted to dress as female , and fought it for nearly a lifetime.
No more.
I am what I am.