transgender or crossdresser?

[Pinky188]

What is the difference between a transgender person ans a crossdresser?

[Eryn]

Transgender is an umbrella term that covers the full spectrum, from crossdressers who wear clothing of the opposite gender to transexuals who transition to the opposite gender.

The definitions aren't carved in granite, but this is the common interpretation.

Here's a resource thread for you:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?76117-What-Are-All-Those-Abbreviations

[AnnaCalliope]

Transgender is an umbrella term that covers the full spectrum, from crossdressers who wear clothing of the opposite gender to transexuals who transition to the opposite gender.

The definitions aren't carved in granite, but this is the common interpretation.

]

She's right, as a know a few crossdressers who do not like being labeled transgendered. To them its not an issue of gender, but just a matter of clothing and fashion. Myself, I preferred the term transgender over crossdresser, in that even before I decided to transition, I knew it was entirely rooted in my gender identity and having a way to explain that it was gender related, like Transgender, was satisfying.

[Karren H]

Both labels... I have an old Dymo label maker.... So I can change my label at will..

[joannemarie barker]

lmao I don't care what I'm called but I'm just laughing at Karens comment as per usual :D

[Marie-Elise]

This was a question I was asking myself. Personally, I call myself a crossdresser. I know I am a man. I just like to wear women's clothes. No biggie.

[willie]

I am a crossdresser but when I start thinking about what I am doing, Using womens bath gel, lotion, underarm, some shaving, am I becoming more transgender. I started out saying that it was just the feel of the clothing but as I dress longer and wear outerwear I feel even better and prettier. I guess that I love the girl side not just the clothes. Am I more than a crossdresser? Hugs

[Shelly Preston]

I am a crossdresser but when I start thinking about what I am doing, Using womens bath gel, lotion, underarm, some shaving, am I becoming more transgender. I started out saying that it was just the feel of the clothing but as I dress longer and wear outerwear I feel even better and prettier. I guess that I love the girl side not just the clothes. Am I more than a crossdresser? Hugs

Hi Willie
Since transgender it an umberella term covering all types of people who "crossdress" (for whatever reason) you cant be more transgendered

You may however be nearer to being a transexual than a crossdresser

The abbrevations link will give you this information in more detail

[DonnaT]

Most crossdressers are transgender. Some don't believe they are, and some probably aren't.

To me, the need to crossdress comes from some urge deep within my psyche. That thing that pushed me to first try it. Now I can't stop. I consider this to be an indication of being trans.

If I dressed just because the clothes felt good, but could stop at any time, then I wouldn't consider myself to be trans.

[Jane G]

Both labels... I have an old Dymo label maker.... So I can change my label at will..

LoL As so often Karen has it coverd.

[sara.s]

These definitions are more accurate (from oxforddictionaries.com):
crossdresser: one who wears clothes of opposite gender
transgender: denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.

[Cheryl T]

I'll stick with transgender.
It's not the clothes that make me feel the way I do, it's the clothes that let's others see those feelings. Inside I'm the same all the time.

[NicoleScott]

She's right, as a know a few crossdressers who do not like being labeled transgendered.

Agree. On the other hand, there are some on this forum (I can name names, but I won't) who have declared that they will no longer use the term "crossdresser" to describe themselves, but rather "transgender".

I adhere to the umbrella definition of trandgender(ed). There are some who have more narrowly defined transgender as one who has an internal feminine identity (it's not about the clothes) and is separate from a crossdresser (it's about the clothes).

For clarity when posting on the forum, I prefer to use the terms "identity dresser" and "pleasure dresser". Both are crossdressers, and by the umbrella definition both are transgendered, but I believe that identity dressers and pleasure dressers (as it relates to what drives the dressing) are fundamentally very different.

[VioletJourney]

Transgender means you cross gender boundaries, and crossdressing means you wear clothes of the opposite sex. So, for example, if you wear makeup but with male clothes you are TG but not CD. CD is inherently TG.

[NicoleScott]

Violet, I never thought of it like that, but I guess you are technically correct about the makeup. I much prefer to transform completely (wig, makeup, the works), but sometimes in the past I have not had enough private time to do so. Sometimes I have just put on makeup (sometimes lipstick only) but I always considered that to be a crossdressing activity, albeit an incomplete one. Of course, that's different than going out in guy clothes and wearing makeup.

[Beverly]

@Violet, So just because I crossdress, I am transgendered?

[ReineD]

I'll echo Eryn: transgender is the umbrella term for anyone who wishes to cross gender boundaries in any form.

Some birth males who identify as women but only when they dress, who may also feel that the term "crossdresser" means to dress for fetish or sexual reasons, yet who do not feel they are partly or fully transsexual or perhaps they are questioning whether or not they are transsexual, do identify as "transgender". They are taking the general term and applying it to their own personal situation simply because they do not feel there is a term that accurately defines who they are.

There are also some people who use the term "transgender" because they simply do not wish to define where they fit along the gender spectrum.

[CharleneT]

.... about two years.....


:D

[RachelOKC]

there are some on this forum (I can name names, but I won't) who have declared that they will no longer use the term "crossdresser" to describe themselves, but rather "transgender".


There are also some people who use the term "transgender" because they simply do not wish to define where they fit along the gender spectrum.

I'll count myself in there. I used the word "crossdresser" for self-definition early on but I at some point in the late 90's I drifted into "transgender" because I wasn't comfortable with the seeming specificity of other labels. I didn't like the word "crossdresser" because *for me* it felt like it superficially described an action rather than a whole sense of being. To each their own, however. Everyone has to find their own place and my friend who described herself as "*******" was quite happy with her own self-definition.

[sterling12]

You have probably never been to Some Group Meetings, or talked with Other T-Gurls at a Bar. When you hear The Phrase: "Oh, your JUST A Crossdresser," it really tends to Tick you off! "Transgendered," because it is an Umbrella Term is much more neutral, and avoids a lot of The "Us and Them Pettiness," which often seems to plague our Community.

"Crossdresser" is a term invented by Virginia Prince, in some Circles it has become as stigmatized as using The Term "Trannie." Virginia is no longer with us, sometimes I wish That Term would also go away.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Inna]

T+d=tg
t=c
g=t+d/t
g=d
t+g=c+d

where: t-trans; g-gender; c-cross; d-dressing
It's just..........logical

[Nikki A.]

I think of it a little differently. If you dress for just the sexual thrill, I wonder if you're also TG. Anyone who dresses for any other reason I would and sexual included I think can be considered as TG.

[TxCassie]

I agree. I feel I'm transgender for the simple fact that I do cross the gender lines, not just because I crossdress, but because my self-identity is not exclusively male. My crossdressing is my expression of my transgendered self. I used to be so afraid of this very fact. I think even more so than the dressing itself because, it was a self-awareness I could not ignore. "To thine own-self be True". Now, I am becoming very comfortable and so much more joyous in accepting that I am not exclusively male.

[ReineD]

@Violet, So just because I crossdress, I am transgendered?


Yes you are. You have a femme name, and your avatar is decidedly on the feminine side. You are crossing a gender boundary. :) But remember that "transgender" doesn't mean you are transsexual, or that you want to be a woman, even sometimes.

BTW, a more accurate term for people who feel they are men while in guy mode, and women while in femme mode, is dualgender or bigender, which is still under the transgender umbrella.

The word, "crossdresser" is a huge catch-all too, since even the way we used to think of it is changing IMO. In times past, the word conjured up images of men presenting solidly as women when dressed, with makeup, wig, etc, whether or not their motives were sexual. But in addition to men who wish to dress in order to feel feminine, there are an increasing number of guys who do go out solidly looking like guys but who wear women's clothing because there is some aspect of it that appeals to them. It has also been better accepted and even stylish in some circles in the last few years (decade?) to be androgynous looking. So, of all these people, some may identify partly or fully feminine, some of the time or all the time, while others say they never feel feminine at all but just like the clothes.

And then there are the people who KNOW they are male, who know they would never be taken as female (because of their height, physiognomy, age, or whatever), and who at the same time do not conform to their own ideas of what being a stereotypical male means. So in contrast, they may feel they are feminine. So they just dress as best they can in a way to straddle the gender line, without going into all the "ooohs" and "aaahs" of femimine fashion, like the stereotypical crossdresser.

Is this complicated enough? lol :)


I think of it a little differently. If you dress for just the sexual thrill, I wonder if you're also TG. Anyone who dresses for any other reason I would and sexual included I think can be considered as TG.

I agree with you! There are some people for whom wearing one or more items of clothing is a solid fetish and nothing else, just like people who are into latex, feathers, angora, or whatever else there is. In my view this type of dressing is strictly fetish and shouldn't be called "crossdressing", just because the object happens to be an item of women's clothing. There are such people in the BDSM community for example, who wear the panties, hose, corsets, shoes, etc just with their dommes during sex and that's it, although there are certainly CDers who are into BDSM as well.

It all has to do with the motive and the tricky part of this is, it is often difficult to get at the true motives.

[DonnaT]

@Violet, So just because I crossdress, I am transgendered?
Do you really want Violet to label you, or do you want to chose your own label, if any?

[NathalieX66]

.... about two years.....


:D

Hah!....that old joke.
Actually it applies the time between crossdresser and transsexual (or someone wanting to make a transition)

[Stephanie47]

I think what a man who wears female attire calls himself may be governed by age. In my youth the only term I call recall was transvestite. Transgendered did not exist. Transsexual existed, but, that always seemed to relate to a person trapped in the body of the opposite sex.

I personally go with cross-dresser solely because the term seems 'softer' than transvestite. Like any person I have personal choices in fabric, in male or female mode. I do not dress because I like the feel of the fabric. I'm way past that! I dress for the peace of mind, release of stress that being en-femme brings me. I think some of us (me) have slight multiple personalities. Very confusing some times.

[ReineD]

.... about two years.....

... for some people. For others it is about 5 years, or it could take 10, 20, or even 30 or 40 years. But for most, it is never.

Assuming you meant the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual, of course. :)

[Mizzsummers]

I was always pressured to be transgendered as i am passable. But I realized, I love being a man and not shaving for a week and being able to do guy stuff. So i guess thats a big indicator! if you like scratching your junk and watching the game.. you might be a cd :P jk. jk.

[5150 Girl]

I guess I've always kinda wonderd where I fit in in the so called list of labels.
Curently I'm ugly 75% of the time out of nececity. (I'm thinking this makes one a CD?) However, if God would grant me the mirical of waking up in the morning as a real woman from the ground up for the rest of my life, I would be one happy camper! Of course, if I could afford to, I'd take matters into my own hands. (which to me would make me TS?) I'm not for sure on this, but it's a lable I'd galdly acept. I have a hard time thinkking of myself as just a CD.

[countrygirl]

I would have to say both (Crossdresser because that is what I like to do) and Transgender for because I am tempted sometime to look at going full time.

[Rianna Humble]

I think from what I have seen on these forums that there are many MtF cross-dressers who sometimes feel that they would not mind waking up as a 100% woman, but who for most of the time are content to be a guy who wears women's clothes. I do not believe that this feeling is the same thing as the acute dysphoria that generally defines a transsexual.

I'm not even sure that the feeling that if you had more money you might go the whole hog necessarily makes you transsexual.

I was going to write something about feeling you can no longer live a lie making you transsexual, but that is not true. IMNSHO, nothing can make you a transsexual, you either are or are not. What you choose to do with that determines whether you transition or not but not whether you are TS.

[SweetIonis]

BTW, a more accurate term for people who feel they are men while in guy mode, and women while in femme mode, is dualgender or bigender, which is still under the transgender umbrella.


That's interesting. Let's suppose you have such a person. What happens when as the person starts to dress in femme more and more that they start to want to be a woman more and more. What happens when they start to feel when they are in guy mode that they don't want to be there anymore, that they really want to be in femme mode. Let's suppose that they start to dislike the fact that they have to be in guy mode. Although they have not made the transition, would you say that transgender is more accurate than bigender? Could you go further and say they are transexual?

[ReineD]

Ionis, in your example, I would suggest this person was a TS all along but was perhaps reluctant to come to terms with it. But if she hates being in guy mode yet she is not sure about being TS, then I suggest she is TSQ (TS Questioning). This is different from being dualgender. And it is certainly a more accurate description than the "transgender" catch-all.

And if she is sure she is a woman but she opts for no SRS, then it is my understanding she is still TS, since I take it from the TSs in this forum that SRS is not a requisite for being TS.

[Melani]

I prefer Transdresser

[SweetIonis]

Reine, it could be something that developed in stages, so I'm not sure it's accurate to say they were TS all along, unless we allow for a definition that would accommodate latent tendencies that just needed the right time, place, and circumstance to manifest. I don't know for sure, but that might broaden the definition to the point of making it somewhat meaningless, if the truth weere that all what you termed "bi-gender" persons really had such latent tendencies. Any rate, this is really interesting. Thanks for that response. I'm interested in hearing or learning more about this if you know more or could point me in the right direction.

[Rianna Humble]

Reine, it could be something that developed in stages, so I'm not sure it's accurate to say they were TS all along,

Ionis, I don't know if you are actually talking about your personal life, but in my experience, nearly all transsexuals can look back to indications that go way back - even though they have often suppressed the knowledge in an effort to conform.

In my case I suppressed the feelings first because at the age of 7 I did not know that other people might feel like this and didn't know how to talk to my parents about it. In my later teens and twenties I tried to dismiss the knowledge because I got mixed up with a religious group who (mistakenly but honestly) thought that gender and sexual orientation were matters of making the "right" choices.

In my thirties, I had to break off a relationship because I could never have been the husband that my loved one deserved.

In my forties, I had taken on responsibilities in the community that did not sit well with the idea of transitioning - and I still didn't know enough about the condition; besides which I thought you needed to be rich to get any help and I have never been rich.

I may be an extreme example, but nearly every TS I have spoken to since coming out as trans can recall incidents from their childhood where they had suppressed the memory in order to try to fit in with what society expected of them.

These were not so much "latent tendencies" as suppressed knowledge. I also told myself that there was no use transitioning because an ugly man would only become an ugly old woman that no-one would want to know.

[Curious28cd]

myself Crossdress I don't know why to tell the truth but totally rather see cd's. But in real life either or lol

[SweetIonis]

Rianna, at this point I honestly don't think I am TS. That said, sometimes I do wonder if I'm headed in that direction. Some of the things associated with that, I empathize with when I am dressed.

I had never heard of this term bi-gender until now and I find the concept interesting. I personally find it somewhat confusing however, because I think that gender and sexuality are often used interchangeably. Honestly, I think there is a good reason for that. It's probably not the currently accepted view, but I feel that it's very difficult to ENTIRELY separate the issue of gender from sexuality. I could discuss that further, but I won't at this point.

The thing is this, as I said before, something intuitively tells me that it's possible that there could very well be a progression in stages from a person being bi-gender to becoming TS. I could very well be wrong, but I think wanting to be a person of the opposite gender exclusively is something that could very well develop as a person engages in more and more of the type of physical and emotional activity that is associated with the opposite gender. To give a crude example, two people can meet and fall in love instantly. But there is also the case of where two people meet, but over the course of time, by getting to know one another, they develop a strong attraction for each other. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

[Rianna Humble]

I could very well be wrong, but I think wanting to be a person of the opposite gender exclusively is something that could very well develop as a person engages in more and more of the type of physical and emotional activity that is associated with the opposite gender.

I think that I agree with this statement, but I do not believe that it applies to Transsexuals for a couple of reasons:

In my experience,Transsexuals do not want to be a person of the opposite gender, we are people whose gender is in opposition to our birth-sex, although many of us waste a lot of time trying to deny that fact.

We see our birth-sex as representing "the opposite gender" so when we (from necessity) finally accept our need to transition, we are engaging in activity associated with our true gender. Some of us have wasted decades trying to portray a gender that we do not understand at all.

Where I think that your statement may well apply is for cross-dressers who get caught up in the dreaded Pink Fog.

The major difference for me is that, as far as I understand, MtF identity cross-dressers self-identify as men but who sometimes express the feminine part of their nature in their mode of dress and in their actions. MtF TS folk self-identify as women who were born in the wrong body. (FtM TS folk are men who were born in the wrong body).

I accept that a small proportion of TS folk will have started out by only trying to tell themselves that they were cross-dressers before giving in to the inevitable and accepting that they are really men born in a woman's or women born in a man's body. In some ways I was one of those because when I finally had to act on my Dysphoria I tried everything I could to be "a guy in a dress" but it didn't work because I already knew the first part to be a lie (I have never been "a guy").

[ReineD]

In my experience,Transsexuals do not want to be a person of the opposite gender, we are people whose gender is in opposition to our birth-sex, although many of us waste a lot of time trying to deny that fact.

We see our birth-sex as representing "the opposite gender" so when we (from necessity) finally accept our need to transition, we are engaging in activity associated with our true gender. Some of us have wasted decades trying to portray a gender that we do not understand at all.

Where I think that your statement may well apply is for cross-dressers who get caught up in the dreaded Pink Fog.

Ionis, this is exactly my understanding of it as well.

That said, and to complicate things further, there are variables that will affect the degree of "happiness" or "satisfaction" that someone who is not TS will have in being male: from whether or not he is engaged or successful in his male life (i.e. career or other passions, romantic relationship, whether or not he has kids, for example), to different personality characteristics such as whether or not he is pragmatic, or can live in the moment, or does not have an "all or nothing" outlook on life, etc., to even the degree such a person might romanticize what being a woman is all about. Is it the fantasy of being a beautiful, "sought after" woman that is driving the desire for the switch or is it the knowledge that one is already a woman, warts and all, even if one is not beautiful.

I think it takes a concerted effort for TGs who struggle with this to try to be as realistic as they can with what living as an ordinary woman is all about, while at the same time trying to determine if she is really female or is it is his preconceived idea of maleness or any dissatisfaction of his male life that he is running away from.

Another consideration: most of us, males, females, and transfolks do grow up in a world that is outwardly split into the male/female gender binary and it is very difficult for anyone to imagine the existence of a third gender, so to speak, that has a real mix of both (as opposed to CDing for fetish, for fun or love of fashion, or for fantasy purposes). It takes an ability to let go of what is the known and the familiar, and be able to embrace the uncertain, elastic gender swings, or really a state of being that is a real gender mix. I think my SO discovered something like this when she was expanding her own definitions of herself and this is why she came to the conclusion she is dualgender, a mix of both all the time, rather than bigender which is more alternating from one to the other. And she/he has arranged her life so as to be able to switch back and forth with ease, according to her moods and needs, in other words whether or not it is her feminine self or masculine self that is more at the forefront on any given day.

I'm not wanting to put words in my SO's mouth or anything, but this is my understanding of it all. My SO prefers to just "be" whoever she is and she has no need to use words to define it.

[SweetIonis]

Rihanna and Reine, thanks to both of you for the thoughtful responses. This is surely a difficult subject matter and I think you are both dealing with it nicely.

I understand what both of you have said and I don't disagree with what you have put forward. That said, let me clarify my remarks. I believe that it is possible, through the process of operant conditioning, for a person's ego to develop in such a way that the person feels that their gender conflicts and is opposite to their birth sex. At this point it's not that they merely WANT to be a person of the other gender, they actually BELIEVE they are a person of the opposite gender. And despite the depth of both of your replies, I don't think that either of you has provided a rational necessity that one lead one to conclude that such a phenomenon is not possible. That could be the result of the lack of clarity on my part.

Since I don't think we have any problem in the case of a person who from birth feels that their gender is in opposition to their birth sex, let's look at the case of a person who has romanticized fantasy of what being a woman is all about. Leaving a lengthy discussion on what a person's male life consists of aside, let's further suppose that there are substantial factors in this regard that are pushing the person from his "male" life. So now we have a person who for these reasons has started to behave in a manner that is consistent with what he believes are activities the opposite sex engages in. Let's go further and suppose that he get's substantial positive psychological reinforcement from his environment when he engages in behavior consistent with his romanticized fantasy. This leads him into further behavior which in turn leads to further reinforcement. This in turn leads him to expand his activities further to the point in which his mind is absorbed in thought behaving like a person of the desired gender. At a certain point I believe conditioning will cause the conceptualization to become emblazoned in this person's mind in such a way that their ego identifies with that of the desired gender. When that takes place, he will feel dissatisfied with his body, birth sex if you will, and will feel that he is in the wrong body and therefore will desire a change. In such a state he is no different in the person who feels that way from birth aside from the way that he arrived to that point. Therefore we could say that such a person is a TS.

You can take the smartest person and through the process of conditioning, by controlling their environment, sensory and emotional input, and make them believe they are the dumbest person in the world. This demonstrates that it is possible to change the nature of a person's ego substantially. And that's my point. A person can arrive at the point of feeling that they are a person's whose gender is opposite to their birth sex through the process of conditioning.

Please, if you have some rebuttal or any other insight in this regard, I am certainly willing to hear it.

[BLUE ORCHID]

I aways thought the difference was a $40,000 dollar operation.

Orchid

[ReineD]

Rihanna and Reine, thanks to both of you for the thoughtful responses. This is surely a difficult subject matter and I think you are both dealing with it nicely.

I understand what both of you have said and I don't disagree with what you have put forward. That said, let me clarify my remarks.

I know. It's difficult enough to define it for oneself, and doubly so when trying to communicate the full breadth of meaning to someone else. :hugs:




So now we have a person who for these reasons has started to behave in a manner that is consistent with what he believes are activities the opposite sex engages in. Let's go further and suppose that he get's substantial positive psychological reinforcement from his environment when he engages in behavior consistent with his romanticized fantasy. This leads him into further behavior which in turn leads to further reinforcement. This in turn leads him to expand his activities further to the point in which his mind is absorbed in thought behaving like a person of the desired gender. At a certain point I believe conditioning will cause the conceptualization to become emblazoned in this person's mind in such a way that their ego identifies with that of the desired gender. When that takes place, he will feel dissatisfied with his body, birth sex if you will, and will feel that he is in the wrong body and therefore will desire a change. In such a state he is no different in the person who feels that way from birth aside from the way that he arrived to that point. Therefore we could say that such a person is a TS.

...

Please, if you have some rebuttal or any other insight in this regard, I am certainly willing to hear it.

Not a rebuttal so much as a few questions.

The positive reinforcement you speak of: where is this taking place, in what environment, specifically?

Is the person in your example going out as her femme self in the mainstream? Is she well received wherever she goes and is she being looked upon and treated as a woman? Also, is she developing more intimate relationships with people such as friendships with GGs who do accept her as a woman? The men in her life: does she go out on dates, or is she accepted by the men in her life as a woman even if they are just friends? Is her family, or are her older friends and coworkers accepting, not to the point of polite tolerance, but in a way that she knows they want to get to know her new female self and continue being friends?

Or, is the scope of her outings limited to TG groups, outings with TG (or selected cis) friends at restaurants or alternative/trans bars, where she is told repeatedly how feminine and how natural she looks? Does she go to places where men are looking to meet TGs and so who contribute to her positive feedback? In other words, is she constructing for herself a microcosm of acceptance and validation? If this is the case, how will she survive when she goes out in the real world and she discovers that people outside the trans community won't treat her the same way, with as much encouragement and validation?

How is she to know that the world of selected positive reinforcement she has built for herself in the environment described above is real?

This is why I question people who discover later in life a desire to become a woman, based on selected environments where positive reinforcement is received. There is simply too large a chance that this method of determining one's innate gender is wrong. A person has a much greater chance for happiness after transition is she knows without a doubt she is a woman, no matter what environment she places herself in, or what conditioning she has received.

If however, she has always known she is a woman, even if for some years this knowledge was suppressed as Rianna suggests, then it is a different matter entirely.

[Speck]

SweetIonis,

I think I understand what you are saying. Here's how I see it after a ton of research but admittedly no first hand experience so please take it with a grain of salt.

Let's take the person who is aware from a very young age that they are a female even though their natal sex is male. Let's put them at the very right side of a continuum. On the very left side we'll place those who enjoy wearing women's clothing for sexual gratification only. As we start to move from that far left side, we may find someone who crossdresses to relax but still enjoys their man side. Everyone on the continuum is Transgendered up to the point that the person on the very right either undergoes a social (without SRS) or medical transition at which point they become TS. We might agree that somewhere in the middle of the continuum is a person who feels very comfortable presenting in female mode sometimes and in male mode at others and likely spends half their time presenting as each gender. Let's call that dual gendered. Now somewhere between the middle and the far right are those who are questioning just how much of their gender identity is female. I think you are asking if it's possible for environmental issues to influence what you believe your gender identity to be. The fact that there is no objective measure to "tell" a person where they naturally belong on that continuum means that people have to "feel" their way around to arrive at a conclusion. I believe that there are a number of factors that would lead a TG to jump to the conclusion that they are a TS. I think those factors have to do with a combination of physical features, personality and life circumstances. Let's say that a TG has been blessed with physical features that lend themselves to being female (small framed, not very tall, very fine facial features, no square jaw, hardly noticeable adam's apple. And let's say that when they transform, they are extremely attractive but in male mode, not so much. They get a ton of compliments and attention when they present in female mode. Now let's say they have an all or nothing type personality...one of those folks who are over achievers and feel they have to be the very best at whatever they set out to do. Now let's go one step further and let's say they are at a point in their lives where kids are grown and gone, the marriage has dissolved and their energy for their career is fading. Let's also say that person is tired of being transgendered and they long for a life as either male or female but not a life where there's lots of secrecy and hiding. I believe that if you took two people in those very same circumstances who both decide to transition, one may find resolution in transition while another may not.

It is for this reason that I think the decision to transition should not be made in haste. I cannot imagine how horrible life would be to make all the trade-offs that a transition might entail and then still not find peace. There are many references to the "pink fog" and while I'm sure everyone would agree that such an important decision should not be made while they're in a pink fog, I believe it's entirely possible for that pink fog to last a very long time and for the TG to not realize they are in a pink fog.

I'm open to debate here. I'm just throwing this out to see what you all think.

Speck

[SweetIonis]

The positive reinforcement you speak of: where is this taking place, in what environment, specifically?

Is the person in your example going out as her femme self in the mainstream? Is she well received wherever she goes and is she being looked upon and treated as a woman? Also, is she developing more intimate relationships with people such as friendships with GGs who do accept her as a woman? The men in her life: does she go out on dates, or is she accepted by the men in her life as a woman even if they are just friends? Is her family, or are her older friends and coworkers accepting, not to the point of polite tolerance, but in a way that she knows they want to get to know her new female self and continue being friends?

Or, is the scope of her outings limited to TG groups, outings with TG (or selected cis) friends at restaurants or alternative/trans bars, where she is told repeatedly how feminine and how natural she looks? Does she go to places where men are looking to meet TGs and so who contribute to her positive feedback? In other words, is she constructing for herself a microcosm of acceptance and validation? If this is the case, how will she survive when she goes out in the real world and she discovers that people outside the trans community won't treat her the same way, with as much encouragement and validation?

How is she to know that the world of selected positive reinforcement she has built for herself in the environment described above is real?

Reine, excellent post. To be totally honest, I had not thought the matter out as well as you, and I feel you have brought up an excellent point. I suppose, I had envisioned it started in a confined way and branching out in some sort of vague fashion, keeping the aspect of a substantial amount of positive feedback for each experience. The purpose of the construct was not to examine the outcome of the decision to transition, but to demonstrate that a person could arrive at a point where they identified themselves exclusively as a person of the gender opposite to their birth sex through conditioning due to environmental factors. That said, I am compelled to agree with you thus far that these are very substantial considerations that should be taken into account before such a decision should be made.

That said I do have a problem with SOME of what you put forward after that. But I will come back to it later.



I think I understand what you are saying. Here's how I see it after a ton of research but admittedly no first hand experience so please take it with a grain of salt.

Let's take the person who is aware from a very young age that they are a female even though their natal sex is male. Let's put them at the very right side of a continuum. On the very left side we'll place those who enjoy wearing women's clothing for sexual gratification only. As we start to move from that far left side, we may find someone who crossdresses to relax but still enjoys their man side. Everyone on the continuum is Transgendered up to the point that the person on the very right either undergoes a social (without SRS) or medical transition at which point they become TS. We might agree that somewhere in the middle of the continuum is a person who feels very comfortable presenting in female mode sometimes and in male mode at others and likely spends half their time presenting as each gender. Let's call that dual gendered. Now somewhere between the middle and the far right are those who are questioning just how much of their gender identity is female. I think you are asking if it's possible for environmental issues to influence what you believe your gender identity to be. The fact that there is no objective measure to "tell" a person where they naturally belong on that continuum means that people have to "feel" their way around to arrive at a conclusion. I believe that there are a number of factors that would lead a TG to jump to the conclusion that they are a TS. I think those factors have to do with a combination of physical features, personality and life circumstances. Let's say that a TG has been blessed with physical features that lend themselves to being female (small framed, not very tall, very fine facial features, no square jaw, hardly noticeable adam's apple. And let's say that when they transform, they are extremely attractive but in male mode, not so much. They get a ton of compliments and attention when they present in female mode. Now let's say they have an all or nothing type personality...one of those folks who are over achievers and feel they have to be the very best at whatever they set out to do. Now let's go one step further and let's say they are at a point in their lives where kids are grown and gone, the marriage has dissolved and their energy for their career is fading. Let's also say that person is tired of being transgendered and they long for a life as either male or female but not a life where there's lots of secrecy and hiding.

Another great response! Yes, you are exactly right! I was putting forward the notion that environmental issues can have a huge influence on what one perceives there gender to be. And as a result, it's not a prerequisite that someone has to feel that way from birth to come to a point where they consider their gender to opposite to their birth sex. I like the way you framed the issue.

Now I think both you and Reine focused on what the possible outcomes of such a decision would be. So let's move to that.



This is why I question people who discover later in life a desire to become a woman, based on selected environments where positive reinforcement is received. There is simply too large a chance that this method of determining one's innate gender is wrong. A person has a much greater chance for happiness after transition is she knows without a doubt she is a woman, no matter what environment she places herself in, or what conditioning she has received.


Reine, here I have a problem with your assertion that this method of determining one's gender is wrong. And I say that because I feel that you are making the mistake of conceptualizing the process as a thought out methodology meant to achieve the desired result of being able to determine one's gender as opposed to actions and decisions that were made as a result of the positive feedback we discussed earlier that lead to certain consequences . I want to make a closing point to this, but first I want to bring in what the other poster said because I think it will apply there as well.



I believe that if you took two people in those very same circumstances who both decide to transition, one may find resolution in transition while another may not.

It is for this reason that I think the decision to transition should not be made in haste. I cannot imagine how horrible life would be to make all the trade-offs that a transition might entail and then still not find peace. There are many references to the "pink fog" and while I'm sure everyone would agree that such an important decision should not be made while they're in a pink fog, I believe it's entirely possible for that pink fog to last a very long time and for the TG to not realize they are in a pink fog.

Speck, what I want to say to both you and Reine, is that I think both of you are ignoring a crucial point here. A person who REALLY feels that they are a member of the gender that is opposite their birth sex, does not choose to feel that way. Regardless of whether they arrived at that point from birth, through positive reinforcement under limited circumstances or more favorable expanded circumstances, they just feel that way and they really can't help it. This situation is quite different from being in the pink fog, at least as I understand it. For a man, he would just feel like he's a woman from dawn until dusk and that's all it is too it. As a result, the person will be FORCED to make some sort of adjustment, whether that involves a full transition,a partial one or adjusting his activities to give his gender identity some satisfaction, a change will have to be made. Otherwise this person is almost certain to experience some sort of psychological problem that will be a result of the huge conflict that exists between functioning as a male, while actually having a female gender identification.

Thanks you guys so much for the responses thus far. When I read them I was so happy that chills went up my spine! Seriously! I hope you don't think ill of me for that, but it's just that I am so happy to find that there are such intelligent people in this group. I makes me happy to be here among you. I am feeling more and more at home here!

[Julogden]

.... about two years.....


:D

You beat me to it. ;)

[Speck]

SweetIonis,

I actually agree that changes need to be made in order to express your true self. However, the type and degree of changes that are needed to be emotionally healthy would depend on where you are on the continuum. I'm not convinced that a full transition is the right decision for everyone who feels they are at the extreme right of that continuum. If the trade-offs are such that you lose a good marriage or a well paying job or other important things in life, I think there are alternatives. As I say this, I just want to be clear that I completely understand someone who has reached a point where they simply can no longer manage the conflict. Just as with other things in life, everyone handles things differently. Being born with a gender identity that doesn't match your natal sex might actually not be a problem if we lived in a society that wasn't so intolerant of the "condition" (I'm not even sure it's a condition). However, the reality is that society has not yet reached a level of understanding that would make it a non-issue.

I have seen time and again people on this forum who say that if it weren't for a few things they hold dear, they would transition in a nano second. Many of these MTFs have found a way to make it work and I admire them. There are thousands of stories of people who face adversity and not only find ways to manage but they make a very positive impact in the world.

I don't want to bore you with details but my own life is an example. Granted, I've never felt a conflict with my gender but I have faced some monumental challenges and not only am I still standing, I have many, many accomplishments that I can be proud of. For all my material possessions, all my beauty and talents, that make for a pleasant life, the only thing I simply could not walk away from are a few relationships that mean the world to me.

We all have needs but as long as there is an element of choice, the pros and cons should be weighed very carefully not only to avoid hurting other people but to avoid living in misery and regret.

Apologies if I rambled but you seemed interested in my point of view.

Speck

[SweetIonis]

Speck,

I think you are so right. Every one of us has different situations, personalities, goals, sets of relationships, mental states, and restrictions. So there is not going to be any right answer that fits all situations. Having said that tho, it's kind of hard for me to imagine how a person on the extreme right of that spectrum could manage if they had to act in a male role all the time. I suppose it's possible, but that would require a tremendous amount of emotional, physical, and intellectual control. Like I said being at the extreme right means you feel that way ALL the time. And those are strong feelings. How someone could manage day to day having to go contrary to that is mind boggling. Actually I am interested in hearing more about your experience. If you don't mind, please PM me!

[ReineD]

A person who REALLY feels that they are a member of the gender that is opposite their birth sex, does not choose to feel that way. Regardless of whether they arrived at that point from birth, through positive reinforcement under limited circumstances or more favorable expanded circumstances, they just feel that way and they really can't help it.

I have another question for you, although it will be nearly impossible to answer. If this person did not have the physique that she has, the "passability" so to speak, and had she not enjoyed all this positive reinforcement as the result, from members or admirers in the TG community (assuming this is where she did get it ... I've seen this before), would she still feel she is a woman?

In other words, do the feelings that she doesn't want to be a man any more come from the positive reinforcements she receives? If there were no positive reinforcements, if most people ignored her or worse, eyed her with suspicion, would she still derive deep satisfaction from living her life as a woman? A TS would, because she is a woman.

I believe that gender feelings come from within. Although we may somewhat be influenced, especially during the formative years, by what people think we are or should be, self-identification as an adult is much deeper than any positive reinforcement we may or may not receive in environments that we seek out specifically because they are supportive.




This situation is quite different from being in the pink fog, at least as I understand it. For a man, he would just feel like he's a woman from dawn until dusk and that's all it is too it. As a result, the person will be FORCED to make some sort of adjustment, whether that involves a full transition,a partial one or adjusting his activities to give his gender identity some satisfaction, a change will have to be made. Otherwise this person is almost certain to experience some sort of psychological problem that will be a result of the huge conflict that exists between functioning as a male, while actually having a female gender identification.

Don't underestimate pink fog. It is very powerful. I'm not speaking of the giddy, delightful feeling of being feminine here, but of the illusion of altered reality that it can produce, even down to perhaps seeing a different image in the mirror than others see. It is possible for someone in a pink fog to bring herself to believe she is TS even if she is not. I believe there is a specific allure with the trappings of femininity that is associated with a pink fog, that I do not think is present when a TS wakes up in the morning and she knows in the deepest part of herself that she is a woman, no matter what she looks like or what she does.

I agree though, this person will have to find a way to deal with how she will live her life. It is my understanding that TSs reach a point where living as a male even if just for work simply is no longer an option. But, whether she is TS or not, if she is enamored with her life of TG nightclubs, sparkly dresses, and men who are interested in her even though she may not be interested in them, it will be difficult for her to find anything in her regular life that is interesting in comparison. It will be like taking a drug away. But, it is worth taking these things away if only to determine how she feels without that type of positive reinforcement. She may discover that she is in fact a guy or dualgender who is in love with the idea of being a woman more than the actual fact. Or, she may well discover that she doesn't need all the positive reinforcement in order to feel good within herself as a woman. The only way to tell is to dress like an every day woman, blue jeans and all and go grocery shopping. Or get the car fixed. Or strike up a conversation with someone at Starbucks. Or join clubs or perhaps volunteer and hang out with cis people, even if they know she is trans. Over and over again, for 2 years even. And if at any time she misses the glitz and glamor, she should try to resist it until she determines who she is.

If the prospect of doing ordinary things while wearing ordinary clothes is not alluring to her, then I don't think she is TS. Still, if she decides to explore this further she would have to first get over the excitement or nervousness of going out in the mainstream, before determining how it really feels, and this is why it takes time. And lots and lots of going out in regular, ordinary circumstances.

At any rate, if she distances herself from the glitz, then she can make proper decisions for herself. It might also not hurt to seek gender counseling, but with the idea of determining the best course of action given the internal conflict, rather than find someone who will take her word that she is TS and prescribe HRT just "to see" if they will help relieve her anxiety.

If she does eventually determine that she is not TS but is dualgender, then it will take a concerted effort to try to seek balance not necessarily in terms of the quantity of time dressed, but rather an internal balance in reaching some satisfaction in being who he is again. This will mean integrating all aspects of his gender. He may wish to do things as a guy that he had not previously given himself permission to do, all while enjoying the more ordinary, day-to-day outings as a girl, in other words, go with the flow. This is the only real way to be happy in my opinion (if she is not TS), without constantly falling prey to a pink fog's unfulfilled wish that life should be different.

And also she should stay away from the TG nightclub's siren songs until she knows, without a doubt, who she is.

Sorry for the long post. Also, please keep in mind that I'm not an expert, but I've written simply what makes good, solid sense to me.

[Jodi M]

IMO if you crossdress there is a feminine part to who you are and you are transgendered ,if we have to be into terms or labels.

[SweetIonis]

I have another question for you, although it will be nearly impossible to answer. If this person did not have the physique that she has, the "passability" so to speak, and had she not enjoyed all this positive reinforcement as the result, from members or admirers in the TG community (assuming this is where she did get it ... I've seen this before), would she still feel she is a woman?

In other words, do the feelings that she doesn't want to be a man any more come from the positive reinforcements she receives? If there were no positive reinforcements, if most people ignored her or worse, eyed her with suspicion, would she still derive deep satisfaction from living her life as a woman? A TS would, because she is a woman.

Reine, the question is not at all impossible to answer if we remember the context from which the scenario that I put forward came. It was assumed ORIGINALLY THAT THE PERSON WAS NOT A TS, but merely a person who liked to dress up occasionally and live out some romanticized role of a woman. Then due to positive feedback this led to more activity which led to more of the behavior. I also put forward the notion that this led to an EXPANSION into other types of activities that the person associated with being those of a woman. Possibly not just dressing to go out to a club, but maybe around the house, doing chores. Then maybe going to sleep and enjoying their romanticized version of womanhood. Then maybe venturing outside to do shopping etc. The point is that the person becomes gradually absorbed more and more in acting and feeling like a woman to the point that the dominant focus of their mind is engaging in that type of activity. At a certain point the person will just start to think of themselves as a woman and at that point they are actually a TS.

It's not that they start the process trying to determine what their gender identity is. They start out merely just having fun. Then the process of operant conditioning gradually imposes the gender identification of being a woman on the person. At that point they naturally feel that way, REGARDLESS OF THE SETTING.



Don't underestimate pink fog. It is very powerful. I'm not speaking of the giddy, delightful feeling of being feminine here, but of the illusion of altered reality that it can produce, even down to perhaps seeing a different image in the mirror than others see. It is possible for someone in a pink fog to bring herself to believe she is TS even if she is not. I believe there is a specific allure with the trappings of femininity that is associated with a pink fog, that I do not think is present when a TS wakes up in the morning and she knows in the deepest part of herself that she is a woman, no matter what she looks like or what she does.

I totally agree it's powerful and it could bewilder someone into confusing that state of mind with that of a TS. But I will try to put the two states in contrast. My experience with pink fog is that at the end of the day, you go back to your male stuff and you are comfortable, everything is fine after the experience is over. For a TS it's quite a bit different. The TS feels uncomfortable acting in a male role, feels uncomfortable wearing men's clothing. They feel that they have to strain to walk like a man, talk like a man, to the point that trying to put forward such a presentation becomes VERY IRRITABLE. There are different types of women so there will be different types of TS persons who express their femininity differently. For one type the may find that NATURALLY they feel like they want to look pretty ALL THE TIME. They want to have pretty nails, have pretty hair, wear pretty clothes ALL THE TIME. Such a person might find that they want to have their house look pretty, decorated with flowers and be neat and as clean as possible ALL THE TIME. They might feel that they would be content to have a man to go out and earn a living while they stay home and keep it in nice order so that their man will be happy when he comes home from a hard days work. They might feel that they want to be sexually attractive for that man so that he will look on her as an object of supreme beauty and by doing so she derives great satisfaction. She will want to be touched liked a woman would be touched by a man. Feel what a woman feels when she enjoys sexual pleasure with a man. She may feel uncomfortable with her sexual organs, and desire to have a vagina, breasts, large hips, etc. She feels the STRONG need to present herself as a woman to others at ALL TIMES, IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, and just naturally feels that way. These feelings are VERY STRONG and persistent. They do not go away. And as such the person just feels that they are in the wrong type of body and feels GREAT dissatisfaction in that regard.

Now that's what I conceptualize TS to be. And that's quite a bit different from a person in the pink fog.



I agree though, this person will have to find a way to deal with how she will live her life. It is my understanding that TSs reach a point where living as a male even if just for work simply is no longer an option. But, whether she is TS or not, if she is enamored with her life of TG nightclubs, sparkly dresses, and men who are interested in her even though she may not be interested in them, it will be difficult for her to find anything in her regular life that is interesting in comparison.

Actually Reine, there are GGs who are like that. And while that may work for some time, eventually they come to a point where that type of life, by itself just doesn't work anymore. It's not uncommon to see such persons experience psychological depression when that happens. So I think that is something that would not be unique to a person who is a TS. Actually it's something that men can also experience, but in a different way. We all need to try to live in such a way that we find value in things of substance as opposed to the glitter of the moment.

Any rate I could say more about your post, but my response is getting long. Maybe I will add some more later! LOL!

[Speck]

Sweetionis,

You wrote:

Then due to positive feedback this led to more activity which led to more of the behavior. I also put forward the notion that this led to an EXPANSION into other types of activities that the person associated with being those of a woman. Possibly not just dressing to go out to a club, but maybe around the house, doing chores. Then maybe going to sleep and enjoying their romanticized version of womanhood. Then maybe venturing outside to do shopping etc. The point is that the person becomes gradually absorbed more and more in acting and feeling like a woman to the point that the dominant focus of their mind is engaging in that type of activity. At a certain point the person will just start to think of themselves as a woman and at that point they are actually a TS."

Are you suggesting that spending more and more time expressing as a woman makes a person think of themselves as a woman? I think a FTM may have a different view. Actually, even a MtF might say that no matter how much time they spend in male mode and no matter how priveleged a life they had in male mode, it never resulted in feeling completely like a man. It would be interesting to hear from others 'cause I think there's some flawed logic there.

Then you went on to write:

"My experience with pink fog is that at the end of the day, you go back to your male stuff and you are comfortable, everything is fine after the experience is over."[/B]

Again, it would be nice to hear from others because my understanding is that Pink Fog or not, CD, TG, TS, many have a very hard time ending the "dressing session". The exception I've heard about is the Sexual Fetish CD. But I could be wrong.

You went on further with this:

[B]"For one type the may find that NATURALLY they feel like they want to look pretty ALL THE TIME. They want to have pretty nails, have pretty hair, wear pretty clothes ALL THE TIME. Such a person might find that they want to have their house look pretty, decorated with flowers and be neat and as clean as possible ALL THE TIME. They might feel that they would be content to have a man to go out and earn a living while they stay home and keep it in nice order so that their man will be happy when he comes home from a hard days work. They might feel that they want to be sexually attractive for that man so that he will look on her as an object of supreme beauty and by doing so she derives great satisfaction. She will want to be touched liked a woman would be touched by a man. Feel what a woman feels when she enjoys sexual pleasure with a man."

Let's side aside for a moment that I find your description of such a woman very sexist and rather offensive (genetic woman have fought hard not to be treated as objects and to work and be taken seriously outside of the home). Let's just forget that because men's perception of what it means to be a woman and a woman's perception of what it means to be a woman has been debated on this site many times. But my reaction to what you've laid out is that that is complete fantasy (not a woman's fantasy, a TG fantasy). I'm sure there are those who will disagree with me but to me, that is more of a CD than a TS. TSs may want to express as a woman but I hate to think that TSs want to present as a bimbo and a trophy.

I realize you're speaking hypothetically and I'm sure you didn't mean to offend...but gosh...you describe something more like D/s sub culture than gender expression issues. Maybe I misinterpreted your point because I couldn't get past that list of what you think woman want.

Speck

[SweetIonis]

Sweetionis,

Are you suggesting that spending more and more time expressing as a woman makes a person think of themselves as a woman? I think a FTM may have a different view. Actually, even a MtF might say that no matter how much time they spend in male mode and no matter how priveleged a life they had in male mode, it never resulted in feeling completely like a man. It would be interesting to hear from others 'cause I think there's some flawed logic there.

The flaw in your response is that you have completely ignored the following statement:

"Then the process of operant conditioning gradually imposes the gender identification of being a woman on the person."

It's more precise to say the process of operant conditioning along with principle of stimulus generalization combine to form the efficient causality. When the words are taken in that context your contention is neatly put to rest.





Again, it would be nice to hear from others because my understanding is that Pink Fog or not, CD, TG, TS, many have a very hard time ending the "dressing session". The exception I've heard about is the Sexual Fetish CD. But I could be wrong.

The problem with using nomenclature like "pink fog" is that it is a vague notion, that lacks precise meaning and therefore means many things to many different people. I tried to clarify the difference in an actual TS and a CD by saying that a CD will experience little or no difficulty in presenting in male mode. For the TS that is not the case. They experience great discomfort and/or difficulty when they present in male mode. The emotional content of their mind makes it to difficult.






Let's side aside for a moment that I find your description of such a woman very sexist and rather offensive (genetic woman have fought hard not to be treated as objects and to work and be taken seriously outside of the home). Let's just forget that because men's perception of what it means to be a woman and a woman's perception of what it means to be a woman has been debated on this site many times. But my reaction to what you've laid out is that that is complete fantasy (not a woman's fantasy, a TG fantasy). I'm sure there are those who will disagree with me but to me, that is more of a CD than a TS. TSs may want to express as a woman but I hate to think that TSs want to present as a bimbo and a trophy.

I realize you're speaking hypothetically and I'm sure you didn't mean to offend...but gosh...you describe something more like D/s sub culture than gender expression issues. Maybe I misinterpreted your point because I couldn't get past that list of what you think woman want.

Speck

Whether you and other feminists like you (not all of them), like it or not, there are some women who conceptualize and express there feelings of being a woman in that way. You can dislike what I have said or despise me for saying it, but it's the truth. I'm merely saying what other women have said. And many of them take great offense in you and others like you trying to belittle their feelings and putting your image on a higher platform. I'm not sorry in the least for saying it.

[Angela Dressing]

Thats a definition that i can live with

[Speck]

SweetIonis,

My contention is not at all put to rest. TSs tell me gender identity cannot be imposed. And while I agree that the term "pink fog" can mean different things to different people, there have been a number of threads questioning why CDing escalates dramatically around mid-life. For the thousands of TGs who find themselves wanting more and more feminine expression, a small percentage come to terms with the fact that they've always known their gender identity is female and proceed to transition. Some would like to transition but decide not to. And some, over time, find balance or find a way to integrate. Until that balance is found, many TGs here have referred to that state as being in a "pink fog". Among other reasons, I think one of the reasons the process of transitioning includes living as your target gender before SRS is to avoid someone making such a major decision when they're going through a phase.

I find it rather amusing that you've called me a feminist. You don't need to be sorry for saying what you percieve being a woman is all about. That may indeed be what you've heard but that doesn't make it the truth. I'd call it selective hearing. But hey, why not prove me wrong and start a thread asking GGs if they would "be content to have a man to go out and earn a living while they stay home and keep it in nice order so that their man will be happy when he comes home from a hard days work".

Speck

[SweetIonis]

A person who understands operant conditioning and stimulus generalization, will understand what I have said. Perhaps you think you are above such things, seeing that you have put yourself on a pedestal and are kindly pontificating downwards to those of us beneath your level of erudition, but you are not. You are just like all the rest of us and are subject to that type of influence.

As far as what women think here's a link to a view different from yours:

WOMEN AGAINST FEMINISM (http://www.freewebs.com/wafs/articlesonfeminism.htm)

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with everything there, but it demonstrates, there is a point of view that is different from yours. You may not like it, but some women can't stand being told how they should feel or run their life by some sanctimonious elitist.

[ReineD]

I had to look those terms up. The concept is basic, really. Reminds me of Pavlov's conditioning experiments. Anyway, for those who are interested, here are brief descriptions, from psychology.about.com

Operant conditioning: (sometimes referred to as instrumental conditioning) is a method of learning that occurs through rewards and punishments for behavior. Through operant conditioning, an association is made between a behavior and a consequence for that behavior. The term was coined by behaviorist B.F. Skinner.

Stimulus generalization: the tendency for the conditioned stimulus to evoke similar responses after the response has been conditioned. For example, if a child has been conditioned to fear a stuffed white rabbit, it will exhibit fear of objects similar to the conditioned stimulus such as a white toy rat.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I gather you are saying, Ionis, that a CDer who goes out and receives positive reinforcement by perhaps being told repeatedly how beautiful she is (the reward), will seek even more experiences that will elicit similar rewards, and over time the desire to be a woman will override her desire to be a man. This in turn will change something inwardly where she will cease to have a male gender ID. In a nutshell.

Whether this turns her into a TS or not is certainly debatable. I rather think she isn't and I wish I could find a better word than "pink fog" to describe what I believe she is experiencing. Leaving this aside, however, I'd like to address the notion you and Speck have been discussing, that (some) women want to be submissive and please their man.

You pointed us to a site by women who want to do just that, which they believe is going against feminist principles, hence the name of their group. I know that the second wave feminism during the 60s/70s was quite militant, with the bra burning, the assertions that women were no different than men, in fact, that men were hateful. This was an extremist view in my opinion although it was a necessary pendulum swing, to bring us all out of the brief post-war, 1950s submissive, "women should sit pretty and not have opinions" opposite pendulum swing of women's roles during the last century.

Thank goodness the third wave feminists came along in the 80s to help us all reach a balance. They taught us that we do have choices. We can choose to stay home and raise children if we want to and this doesn't mean we are less valid than those of us who choose to pursue careers, with the idea that we should be paid the same salary as the men who perform the same work. This doesn't mean, however, that the women who do choose to stay home are Stepford Wives. :p

The submissive woman you described a few posts above simply isn't real to me. She seems quite vacuous. I honestly don't know anyone like that. I was a mom at home for 25 years and there's no way I was like that. lol. Over the years I've known hundreds of other women, other moms, as my three sons went through the primary and secondary grades. They weren't like that either. Some of us worked, and others who could afford it stayed home. We rather thought of ourselves as equal partners to our husbands, with our own opinions, our own minds, and sometimes there was conflict as there is bound to be when two people are living together and they become at odds over some situations.

At any rate, the link you posted points to a group of women who are against second wave feminists. I don't blame them. The time for second wave feminism has passed. But, this doesn't mean that these women are submissive to the degree you describe above. Or, some of them may well be, who knows. There is a group of men out there who also are determined to conform to older stereotypes, by being "THE HUSBAND, LORD AND MASTER OF THE HOME". Maybe they are married to the women in your link. :)

There are all types of people out there, but for the purpose of this discussion, I think it best to not find small obscure groups of people and say that what they do works for most of us, in this day and age.

[SweetIonis]

Reine, first things first. Since your opinion on the matter of whether the person was a TS or not was briefly stated, without much discussion I will simply respond that if I walks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. I can discuss that concept of how a person could start out not being a TS and end up there in much greater detail. I may actually do so with a more detailed scenario later.

But on to the issue of what women want. When I first put forward that notion in a response to you first of all I don't think I ever used the word submissive, and furthermore I know I said not all women feel that way. You have injected the words submissive into my mouth and I think that's quite unfair. And both you and Speck have totally ignored the fact that I said not all TSs would feel that way, WHICH IMPLIES THAT NOT ALL WOMEN FEEL THAT WAY. Now you can say it's not realistic but I know a few that are like that. And it will do no good for me to say that because you do not believe me. Therefore, I found a link online where women who do not feel that way that you and Speck feel express their opinion SIMPLY TO DEMONSTRATE THAT NEITHER OF YOU SPEAK FOR ALL WOMEN. I certainly do not speak for ALL women. Furthermore you chose to ignore the FACT that I said I do not necessarily agree with everything there. I clearly stated that the purpose of posting that link was to demonstrate that there was a view held by SOME women that is quite different from the one that Speck and it appears you have put forward.

Now I found the tone of Specks to be somewhat malicious. I particular, I feel that the use of the term "binbow" to describe a woman who feels that way was particularly malicious. To me this indicated a person that has been to overcome by anger to properly debate on an intellectual level. So therefore I stopped the analytical tone and just gave brief responses. In contrast, I find that although you do not agree with what I said, you have kept up a proper, respectful tone, and as long as that continues, I assure you I will do my utmost to respond in kind and will delight in a good debate.

Now that said, I do have a problem with the fact that you have implied that I am attempting to speak for all women and that I have put forward that the link to that website in an attempt to paint a picture of women in general that conforms to that conceptualization. I have done neither. Also again, I have a problem with your use of the word submissive to describe what I posted in my scenario. Just because a woman would prefer to stay at home, take care of the house, and take pleasure in giving pleasure to her man does not mean that she is some mindless robot who merely follows instructions. Quite the contrary. Actually it is quite a big endeavor to manage a house ESPECIALLY one where there are several kids. IT'S A FULL TIME JOB. It requires considerable expertise to do properly. That's one point. The next point is that it doesn't mean that the woman does not have a mind of her own. She can express her opinion, promote her own ideas publicly and probably in many cases has the final word in what goes on in the house and how finances are managed. That's not a submissive "binbow".

Any rate, I have to go to work. I will respond more later when I come home.

But thanks for the civil exchange. I really appreciate and enjoy it!

[ReineD]

Reine, first things first. Since your opinion on the matter of whether the person was a TS or not was briefly stated, without much discussion I will simply respond that if I walks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. I can discuss that concept of how a person could start out not being a TS and end up there in much greater detail. I may actually do so with a more detailed scenario later.

Fair 'nuff, although I'm afraid that you and I simply won't come to a meeting of the minds on this. If you are ultimately talking about yourself I won't presume to tell you how you feel and if you feel you are TS, this is your call and perfectly valid. Please believe me when I say this.

But if you are constructing a "what if" scenario, what you describe matches my definition of ultimate "pink fog", for lack of a better word. The TS's threads I read here do not describe being a woman to such a high degree of enthrallment or excitement as you do, in fact they all say it is just being normal and excitement free, much like anyone else who is not transgender, man or woman, feels while going about their normal lives. And it doesn't appear as if they hold stereotypical views of womanhood like you do in the quote below, which I also observe is shared by many other CDers here as well.

I'm quoting below your words from post #52, that gave me the impression you believe that women in this role feel submissive.

"For one type the may find that NATURALLY they feel like they want to look pretty ALL THE TIME. They want to have pretty nails, have pretty hair, wear pretty clothes ALL THE TIME. Such a person might find that they want to have their house look pretty, decorated with flowers and be neat and as clean as possible ALL THE TIME. They might feel that they would be content to have a man to go out and earn a living while they stay home and keep it in nice order so that their man will be happy when he comes home from a hard days work. They might feel that they want to be sexually attractive for that man so that he will look on her as an object of supreme beauty and by doing so she derives great satisfaction. She will want to be touched liked a woman would be touched by a man. Feel what a woman feels when she enjoys sexual pleasure with a man."



But on to the issue of what women want. When I first put forward that notion in a response to you first of all I don't think I ever used the word submissive, and furthermore I know I said not all women feel that way. You have injected the words submissive into my mouth and I think that's quite unfair.


I'll take back the word "submissive" if you like, and referring to your italicized quote just above, I'll substitute it for "being in a secondary, or subordinate role to her husband", in other words, she lives to cater to his whims and further, that she may well get a sexual charge out of doing this. I do not know women who are like this. I do know couples who both dote on each other, who both do nice things for each other, but the activities they engage in are interchangeable. They are not so mired in the strict traditional roles you describe, not in this day and age. And in my view, any woman today who feels the way you describe above has given up her own drive for self-actualization in favor of catering to her husband. It's one thing for her to take on the responsibilities of running the household if this is what they decide, while he earns the salary, but her motive in doing this is as a full and equal partner in the relationship. She's just doing her job because it is their agreement, and the motives have nothing to do with keeping "her man happy when he comes home from a hard days work". What you describe here is every man's fantasy (again I am reminded of the movie, "Stepford Wives"), and not a woman's, at least, no women that I know. :D I agree with you there MUST be some women who do feel like this, but honestly I am speaking here of the rule and not the exception.

In terms of sexuality, yes it's true that women want to be touched and held, but again, I don't believe this is any different than men who also want to be touched and held. Sex is a powerfully vulnerable experience for both women and men and other than specific D/s sexual relationships or other deep desires to be sexually dominant or submissive that really has nothing to do with gender (gay couples are D/s as well), thresholds are reached when two people are intimate that transcend any gender, period. They both reach nirvana and nirvana is gender free, at least it is for me. Also, men and women do engage in a variety of positions and acts during their love making sessions and it is simply not as one-sided as the impression I get from your description. Again, I think you are describing every CDer's fantasy of what it is like to be a woman.

And last, again referring to your italicized quote above, the idea that women "want to feel pretty ALL THE TIME" is simply not realistic and again I believe it to be a CDer's dream. I can see a woman who is on a lookout for a mate paying more attention to her presentation than say a harried mom, kids in tow, who is running to the grocery store to buy something for dinner, but honestly most women that I know don't have this idealized view of themselves. We can and do dress up and put on makeup when the situation calls for it, but for most of us it is simply something we do to look presentable, and then we just forget about it and go on with our day or evening. There is not this constant background "thrill" in our psyches over wearing pantyhose, heels, lipstick or mascara, or feeling our long hair brush against our necks for example.



Now that said, I do have a problem with the fact that you have implied that I am attempting to speak for all women and that I have put forward that the link to that website in an attempt to paint a picture of women in general that conforms to that conceptualization.

Actually, I'm not putting any stock in the Women Against Feminism that you linked to, since I don't believe they are representing themselves the way you describe being a woman is all about in your italicized quote above. Plus, they do speak out against second wave feminism, which as I said earlier has been replaced with the third wave anyway.

The bulk of my disagreement with you as it regards women is over your concept of what being a woman is, as you describe in your italicized quote above, which you also said is your description of what you conceptualize a TS to be.

[SweetIonis]

Fair 'nuff, although I'm afraid that you and I simply won't come to a meeting of the minds on this. If you are ultimately talking about yourself I won't presume to tell you how you feel and if you feel you are TS, this is your call and perfectly valid. Please believe me when I say this.

And if you want to believe that I think that I am a TS then you are perfectly free to do so. You appear to have a knack for putting words in my mouth because I honestly believe there is an underlying hostility that is motivating you to do this. If you will recall I said I do not believe I am a TS. So please madame distinguished moderator, believe me when I say that. I mean it.



But if you are constructing a "what if" scenario, what you describe matches my definition of ultimate "pink fog", for lack of a better word. The TS's threads I read here do not describe being a woman to such a high degree of enthrallment or excitement as you do, in fact they all say it is just being normal and excitement free, much like anyone else who is not transgender, man or woman, feels while going about their normal lives. And it doesn't appear as if they hold stereotypical views of womanhood like you do in the quote below, which I also observe is shared by many other CDers here as well.


Enthrallment is in the eye of the beholder. Some people are enthralled with the notion that they are the gatekeepers of a world where they define what is right and what is wrong. They frequently practice a reverse type of patronizing chauvanism in which they police the thoughts and actions of others. Typically embittered from their experiences in life they go about engaging in hard hearted rhetoric and activities that are meant to elevate themselves from their embittered position by putting down those whom they feel do not fit in with their version of reality. Although many times they claim to be liberal and open minded, actually their nature resembles that of a religious fanatic bent on imposes their views on others.

Perhaps you are not like that, but if you are, that's tuff stuff.



I'll take back the word "submissive" if you like, and referring to your italicized quote just above, I'll substitute it for "being in a secondary, or subordinate role to her husband", in other words, she lives to cater to his whims and further, that she may well get a sexual charge out of doing this. However I do not know women who are like this.

Well I honestly appreciate the gesture in taking back submissive. Because honestly, it's not what I had in mind. But then you go about saying that she lives to cater to his every whim. I DID NOT SAY THAT. What you have done again is create a distortion. Perhaps you don't realize it, but some men and women both get pleasure from doing things that they feel please one another. Perhaps it is an unknown concept to you, but there is such a thing as deriving more pleasure from seeing the object of your affection pleased than actually doing things that are meant to give pleasure to one's self. That's the only concept that was put forward. Not that the woman is some genie in a bottle that simply says "yes master".


I do know couples who both dote on each other, who both do nice things for each other, but the activities they engage in are interchangeable. They are not so mired in the strict traditional roles you describe, not in this day and age. And in my view, any woman today who feels the way you describe above has given up her own drive for self-actualization in favor of catering to her husband. It's one thing for her to take on the responsibilities of running the household if this is what they decide, while he earns the salary, but her motive in doing this is as a full and equal partner in the relationship. She's just doing her job because it is their agreement, and the motives have nothing to do with keeping "her man happy when he comes home from a hard days work".

I am going to visit a couple this weekend that live just the way I describe. And the roles are what I described AND IT IS BY MUTUAL AGREEMENT AND IT IS AN EQUAL PARTNER RELATIONSHIP. The best married couple relationship I have seen. And everyone that I know that knows them says the same. And she does want her husband to be happy when he comes home from work. What cold hearted person would not want such a thing. The distortion here that you want to create is that this means that the woman is simply a slave and ONLY LIVES FOR THE SATISFACTION OF HER HUSBAND. That's your distortion, and if you really want to believe that's what I'm putting forward, again you are free to do so. But that's what I would call enthrallment in a typical feminist fantasy.




In terms of sexuality, yes it's true that women want to be touched and held, but again, I don't believe this is any different than men who also want to be touched and held.

Oh really? While there are certain common ways that men and women share in wanting to be touched, there are certain ways that MOST men do not want to be touched that many women would find stimulating. To say there is not a difference is a distortion.



Sex is a powerfully vulnerable experience for both women and men and other than specific D/s sexual relationships or other deep desires to be sexually dominant or submissive that really has nothing to do with gender (gay couples are D/s as well), thresholds are reached when two people are intimate that transcend any gender, period. They both reach nirvana and nirvana is gender free, at least it is for me. Also, men and women do engage in a variety of positions and acts during their love making sessions and it is simply not as one-sided as the impression I get from your description. Again, I think you are describing every CDer's fantasy of what it is like to be a woman.

Again, you may find it hard to believe, but not everyone in the world shares your gender free experience. And as an aside I'm going to say that some would find your use of the word nirvana to describe your experience to be repulsive. I don't personally because I think I know what you are trying to say, but just to let you know, there are persons would detest your use of that word to describe your experience. And thank you for letting me know that couples engage in a variety of positions. I didn't know that. All this poor soul has are CD fantasies to live with. Thank you for sharing that profound insight. BTW even lower animals engage in sex in different positions.



And last, again referring to your italicized quote above, the idea that women "want to feel pretty ALL THE TIME" is simply not realistic and again I believe it to be a CDer's dream.

Now here you have a valid point and that is surely a case of my being loose with words. Let's say the person in the scenario want's to present themselves as being pretty a substantial amount of time. Then on the other hand a person can be outwardly pretty but inwardly ugly. A person can be outwardly ugly but inwardly pretty. And then some are outwardly ugly and are just bitter and filled to the brim with hate and animosity. For them being pretty is just not on the horizon, no matter how you look at it.


There is not this constant background "thrill" in our psyches over wearing pantyhose, heels, lipstick or mascara, or feeling our long hair brush against our necks for example.

I never mentioned that anyone did. Perhaps this is a veiled attempt at venting some underlying hostility. Hope you feel good you got that off your chest!



The bulk of my disagreement with you as it regards women is over your concept of what being a woman is, as you describe in your italicized quote above, which you also said is your description of what you conceptualize a TS to be.

And I would say that you have your opinion. It's an opinion is surely based on constant distortion of my words. The question I have is, what is the underlying malice that is motivating those distortions?

[Starr]

Before i came to this site, i always consider myself a transvestite. To me a Crossdresser was a man who simple wore women clothes and made no attempt to be fem.. that was just my thinking at the the time i came here.. now i simple consider myself transgender, but as i have gotten more accpeting of being fem.. i am not sure i am not transexual. i work hard to be as fem as i can and i am attracted to men very much so... so guess i will see where this road goes.. someday i might just consider myself female...

[Speck]

SweetIonis,

In your earlier posts, you sounded genuinely interested in other people's perspective. In particular, I think you were trying to understand the term bi-gendered. Somewhere along the line things got pretty convoluted and it's no longer clear to me what your objective is. I don't have the time or inclination to re-read all the posts. At any rate, you seem to have become unglued. If you're looking for greater understanding or support, I would encourage you to start a new thread communicating as clearly as you possibly can. Please don't concern yourself with using complex vocabulary or getting the spelling right. That's not what matters here. You may want to consider a quote by Albert Einstein - "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."

Speck

[ReineD]

You appear to have a knack for putting words in my mouth because I honestly believe there is an underlying hostility that is motivating you to do this..


So please madame distinguished moderator, believe me when I say that.

Some people are enthralled with the notion that they are the gatekeepers of a world where they define what is right and what is wrong. They frequently practice a reverse type of patronizing chauvanism in which they police the thoughts and actions of others. Typically embittered from their experiences in life they go about engaging in hard hearted rhetoric and activities that are meant to elevate themselves from their embittered position by putting down those whom they feel do not fit in with their version of reality. Although many times they claim to be liberal and open minded, actually their nature resembles that of a religious fanatic bent on imposes their views on others. Perhaps you are not like that, but if you are, that's tuff stuff.


What you have done again is create a distortion.


That's your distortion, and if you really want to believe that's what I'm putting forward, again you are free to do so. But that's what I would call enthrallment in a typical feminist fantasy.


To say there is not a difference is a distortion.


And thank you for letting me know that couples engage in a variety of positions. I didn't know that. All this poor soul has are CD fantasies to live with. Thank you for sharing that profound insight. BTW even lower animals engage in sex in different positions.


Perhaps this is a veiled attempt at venting some underlying hostility. Hope you feel good you got that off your chest!


And I would say that you have your opinion. It's an opinion is surely based on constant distortion of my words. The question I have is, what is the underlying malice that is motivating those distortions?

I did my best to interpret your words in order to engage in a meaningful discussion. Apparently, you see my interpretation as a hostile, embittered, rhetorical, patronizing, chauvanistic, feministic, religious, and malicious distortion.

It is clear that we cannot communicate. I'm finished with this thread.

[SweetIonis]

SweetIonis,

In your earlier posts, you sounded genuinely interested in other people's perspective. In particular, I think you were trying to understand the term bi-gendered. Somewhere along the line things got pretty convoluted and it's no longer clear to me what your objective is. I don't have the time or inclination to re-read all the posts. At any rate, you seem to have become unglued. If you're looking for greater understanding or support, I would encourage you to start a new thread communicating as clearly as you possibly can. Please don't concern yourself with using complex vocabulary or getting the spelling right. That's not what matters here. You may want to consider a quote by Albert Einstein - "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."

Speck

I would say that the use of the term "binbow" to describe those who do not conform to the conceptualization of a woman that you wish to impose upon the world is not even worthy of the words "intelligent fool". There are other words that would be more descriptive. What those words are, I'll leave as an exercise.


I did my best to interpret your words in order to engage in a meaningful discussion. Apparently, you see my interpretation as a hostile, embittered, rhetorical, patronizing, chauvanistic, feministic, religious, and malicious distortion.

It is clear that we cannot communicate. I'm finished with this thread.

When an interpretation constantly contains the flaws of distortion of intent, it is no longer an interpretation, but rather an exercise meant to put forward a highly motivated agenda. The person responsible either deliberately engages in such activity or due to heavy emotional bias with regards to things like anger and envy cannot interpret properly. I noted and pointed out some of your distortions and hinted at a motivation. Motivation I could be wrong about. But the distortions, I was right on the money about. When you engage in that type of activity with regards to my words, I reserve the right to call it.

[Momarie]

Ionis:

"When an interpretation constantly contains the flaws of distortion of intent, it is no longer an interpretation, but rather an exercise meant to put forward a highly motivated agenda. The person responsible either deliberately engages in such activity or due to heavy emotional bias with regards to things like anger and envy cannot interpret properly. I noted and pointed out some of your distortions and hinted at a motivation. Motivation I could be wrong about. But the distortions, I was right on the money about. When you engage in that type of activity with regards to my words, I reserve the right to call it."

You couldn't be more wrong about someone.

She is one of the most thoughtful, well balanced, supportive, patient women on this site.
She's the kind of person whose natural niceness is eclipsed only by her absolute lack of hostility.

[SweetIonis]

Ionis:

"When an interpretation constantly contains the flaws of distortion of intent, it is no longer an interpretation, but rather an exercise meant to put forward a highly motivated agenda. The person responsible either deliberately engages in such activity or due to heavy emotional bias with regards to things like anger and envy cannot interpret properly. I noted and pointed out some of your distortions and hinted at a motivation. Motivation I could be wrong about. But the distortions, I was right on the money about. When you engage in that type of activity with regards to my words, I reserve the right to call it."

You couldn't be more wrong about someone.

She is one of the most thoughtful, well balanced, supportive, patient women on this site.
She's the kind of person whose natural niceness is eclipsed only by her absolute lack of hostility.

That's quite possible because I really don't know her. But for sure she took my words and distorted them and that's an indisputable fact. The tone was set right off the bat when she conjectured/implied that I thought I was a TS, after I clearly said that I do not think of myself in that way. There was NOTHING in my words that implied that I thought I was. And since she took the liberty to go that far out in her interpretation, I felt I was at liberty to offer an interpretation on motive, and although you say I'm wrong, and I said previously, and will admit again that I COULD BE WRONG, at this point I don't THINK I am. She said what she felt, I said what I felt about it. I honestly don't hate her for it. Actually I still like her believe it or not. I think she exercises quite a bit of restraint, more than most of the people that I come in contact with. But that said, I really haven't seen anything to make me feel any differently about what was said. So that's where we stand.

[Rianna Humble]

Reine, first things first. Since your opinion on the matter of whether the person was a TS or not was briefly stated, without much discussion I will simply respond that if I walks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. I can discuss that concept of how a person could start out not being a TS and end up there in much greater detail. I may actually do so with a more detailed scenario later.

If it walks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck, it may yet be a cygnet - or have you forgotten the lessons of Hans Christian Anderson?

It is hardly surprising that there was little discussion in that specific post by Reine, although you appear to have deliberately overlooked every attempt at discussion by her and by others to which you have consistently responded by ignoring the experience of others and pushing your so far unsubstantiated pavlovian theory.


I said previously, and will admit again that I COULD BE WRONG, at this point I don't THINK I am.

Here is the nub of the problem when people try to communicate with you - you pay lip servie to the concept that you could be wrong but in reality you act as if everyone else was wrong and only you are in the right.
Welcome to my ignore list

[SweetIonis]

Welcome to my ignore list

If that makes you feel better fair enough. Believe me there is no love lost from my side.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

as far as mtf...
conditioned into believing you are female? i guess anything is possible.
but that's about as far as it goes. and it's not relevant to transsexualism

the idea that you can get turned into a woman by conditioning is a common cd fantasy by the way... and you can buy "hypnosis" programs that i'm sure people here have bought..

transsexual is something that you are born with. you may cope with it in a way that hide's your nature from yourself, you may act in ways to hide your ts nature at all costs (even while secretly cd'ing)..and this is especially true if you are a big burly guy, or you know you would never be able to remotely look like a woman... building confidence by crossdressing and seeking positive reinforcement seems quite logical for those of us that want or need to transition.. but its not the other way around...

being your own gender is a fundamental human experience..it's not like wanting ice cream instead of sorbet.
no amount of conditioning can make a ts feel they are not ts, why should it be the other way around...

[Dealight]

It's kind of funny how we, as well as the rest of the human race, get caught up in labels. Can't help it sometimes...though we try to avoid it, don't we? I know in my area, where there is a large GLBT community, the name game can get very confusing. I think by appropriate definition, we do all fall into the larger "Transgender" category - those whose interests lie in being at one point or another different from our birth gender. In our area, because the term "TG" is often meant to refer to transexuals (those transforming into the opposite gender via hormones, surgery or both), I often just refer to myself as a CD, because it's a little more precise. But sometimes I'll call myself a "Trans" in the right company. BTW, I am a heterosexual CD.
I have become more and more enamored of the idea that we are all people first...human beings with real thoughts and feelings and yes, desires..... rather than a categorized fish in the appropriate pond.... I have so many friends from so many different ponds!
And yet, as I said, we still use labels for various reasons.........Anyway...just a few thoughts.......

[SweetIonis]

the idea that you can get turned into a woman by conditioning is a common cd fantasy by the way...


There are some that say that the idea that someone is born being a female in a male body is a fabricated fantasy, BTW.

[SweetIonis]

I thought it would be a good exercise to explore the idea that it is possible for a person to change their gender identification through the process of operant conditioning at length. The discussion will be continued in THIS THREAD (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?157619-Crossdresser-To-Transexual-Transformation)

[Starling]

I don't think it's possible to explore whether operant conditioning can change gender identification without actually conducting experiments. But I'll go further and say that I believe gender identification is part of the BIOS, and not of the programming, to use a computer metaphor. And my own experience from a very early age inclines me to accept the current medical theory that GID is caused by anomalous hormonal events in the womb.

Operant conditioning generally functions to train us to conceal our true identity and act like average boys and girls. Then, over many years it becomes emotionally and physically exhausting to carry on a double life like that, and in extremis one either integrates or terminates. Or, I guess, vegetates.

:) Lallie

[Rianna Humble]

Hi Lallie, I think you are right, but don't hold your breath waiting for Ionis to accept the validity of your point of view, he is not interested in discussion