knowing that you are screwed

[arbon]

at least as far as your job goes.

Such a weird feeling.

It has been made very clear that I am going to lose my job if I try to transition at work. There is no doubt and there is no negotiation of the issue.

It is also very likely that I am going to be let go at this point even if I were to stop presenting as a woman outside of work. But it is not final. So I am going to stop presenting as a woman outside of work, in the community, in hopes that it will appease my boss.

Maybe it will work until things look more favorable for me to transition.

There just are not any job opportunities and I don't want to end up destitute. More then that I don't want to take my daughter or partner down that path with me. It is not fair to them.

I am going to stay on my hormones though.

I'm not in a good space tonight.

20+ years

How things change. Going from #1 to piece of dirt.

sigh...

[Aimee20]

What is it that you do for work? I know I am in the same boat and am in process of making a career change since the auto sales thing just isn't that friendly to women, especially those not born physically female

[Eryn]

Arbon, where are you and what do you do? In some places you have legal remedies if you can prove that your firing was because you were TS.

[Myojine]

at least as far as your job goes.

Such a weird feeling.

It has been made very clear that I am going to lose my job if I try to transition at work. There is no doubt and there is no negotiation of the issue.

It is also very likely that I am going to be let go at this point even if I were to stop presenting as a woman outside of work. But it is not final. So I am going to stop presenting as a woman outside of work, in the community, in hopes that it will appease my boss.

Maybe it will work until things look more favorable for me to transition.

There just are not any job opportunities and I don't want to end up destitute. More then that I don't want to take my daughter or partner down that path with me. It is not fair to them.

I am going to stay on my hormones though.

I'm not in a good space tonight.

20+ years

How things change. Going from #1 to piece of dirt.

sigh...

What do you expect?
People ****ing hate us for no real reason
People should feel sorry for us and should want to help us, like they do those kids born with malformities, or people who have lost limbs... or some defect.
after all it is a birth defect...

Im facing loosing my job too, but because my boyfriend is a stupid lazy ass and get up intime to make sure im to work.
You should try to collect evidence, or something and build a court case that you were fired beucase you are trans.
Its federally protected.
Pin their asses for that shit.

[AnnaCalliope]

You can't even present as female OUTSIDE of work? How does your personal life, when you are off the clock have any effect on what you do on the job? I do know there are a few jobs out there where certain non-work conduct is prohibited, but how you dress should not be one of them.

[Schatten Lupus]

You can try here:
http://www.intraa.org/
It's a transgender rights advocacy group based in Indiana, but I'm sure they will help point you in the direction of someone who can help in your area. The ACLU may also be able to point you in the right direction, if there is such a "direction" in your area.

[thechic]

OMG that sucks big time,how can your work affect your after work activities, that's just not on.

[Kelsy]

Sorry to hear of your struggles Arbon.

It's unfortunate but some of the consequenses of being out are difficult. Many here have jobs and employment situations that can make the transition process, though difficult, easier but adjusting to the transitioning person and enabling
that transitioner to remain employed.

My own situation, being self employed blue collar, presents the
situation that each customer has to choose wether to continue our working relationship or not.I have many employers. I also work with dozens of subcontractors that have their beliefs and feelings
on the subject and in the construction world most reactions to this are negative!

Time will tell wether I will be able to continue with the only occupaion I have ever known. I have been trying to prepare by saving money, supplying secure housing, and stored food for a year just in case I find myself unable to work. I am in the processof coming out and my preparation is near complete but I have waited to be sure these things are in place. For me it's survival first. None of my needs transitionwise can come to realization without a good income.

My advice for what it is worth is to hold that job and prepare to get out. If you haven't lost it already. Start searching today for another one. Put some money aside and assess your long term goals. You need to have a plan.

Finally, My preparations are based in the fear of the worst case. My sincere hope is that the actual situations will come down as not nearly as horrible as I have imagined.

K

[linda allen]

Like it or not, there are many jobs where transitioning from male to female would be a problem. There are also many jobs where your behavior outside of the workplace can get you fired. arbon didn't mention her line of work so it's hard to say anything relevant about her situation.

[arbon]

You can try here:
http://www.intraa.org/
It's a transgender rights advocacy group based in Indiana, but I'm sure they will help point you in the direction of someone who can help in your area. The ACLU may also be able to point you in the right direction, if there is such a "direction" in your area.

Where I live there are no such protections. I have checked. The ACLU says that there is nothing I can do.


You can't even present as female OUTSIDE of work? How does your personal life, when you are off the clock have any effect on what you do on the job? I do know there are a few jobs out there where certain non-work conduct is prohibited, but how you dress should not be one of them.

I have been the owners assistant for the last 12 years and I have basically been wearing the hat of sales and production manager for him. Essentially I have been the face of the company the primary contact for clients because my boss does not do well with them and they really don't like working with him. The problem is that it is a small community and I run into clients all the time outside of work - the grocery store, gas station, theater, etc. It gets back to my boss. Not only that but some have started to refer to me as Theresa even when at work, it happen twice in front of my boss this month. In his eyes this is turning into an embarrassment for the company. Except that I have not actually LOST a client or work for the company because of it. All of my clients are still my clients and they pretty much all know. They mostly just care about the work getting done and the price we charge.

But because my transition is generally known about the odds of me lucking out with one of the occasional job openings around here is very, very slim. But I am looking and trying. And I am also going to be looking in other areas. In the meantime I am going to hang low and only present male around town and see if I can stick it out for a little longer here.

[Jorja]

I have been the owners assistant for the last 12 years and I have basically been wearing the hat of sales and production manager for him. Essentially I have been the face of the company the primary contact for clients because my boss does not do well with them and they really don't like working with him. Except that I have not actually LOST a client or work for the company because of it.

Actually, you have a lot of things going in your favor. Have you ever considered going into business for yourself? You seem to run this business anyway. Here is your biggest factors. "All of my clients are still my clients and they pretty much all know. They mostly just care about the work getting done and the price we charge." Remember, there is more than one way to get where you are going.

[arbon]

Jorja - very true. I have considered it, just haven't figured out how to make it work yet. But it is a real possibility. Thanks for the reminder.

[Kittykitty]

Sometimes a little threat can go a long way. How does your employer know you don't have the financial backing to strike out on your own?

A music store I used to deal with had an ACE salesperson. He told the owner he was going to open his own shop if he didn't work out an ownership split. This guy was like you, the face of the company for someone who didn't want to stick his nose out there. The owner dragged his feet, and now 2 years later, his shop is about to close after 30+ years, and the other shop is very profitable and has built a brand based on his name alone. Last time I talked to the first owner, he was practically in tears over his bad decision.

Why not make a list of all the pros and cons of you leaving vs staying and stuffing all this inside? Talk to your boss openly. It's only an embarrassment if he is embarrassed. If you haven't lost any clients, that's a great sign and concrete evidence to back your claims.

Good luck :)

[Inna]

Arbon, I am not a vicious or mean spirited in any way or form however your post had infuriated me beyond pissed. First of all, worker discrimination on basis of sexual orientation are illegal there are some states which comply and some that almost comply, I don't know of yours. Check it. Second of all you don't want to work there anyway even if they had to keep you on after you would press a legal issue, it is rather obvious to me that they are trying to beat you senseless, until they beat femininity out of you for good, sounds like some of those devoted "loving" Christians down south.

Tell them no, I shall remain who I am , get fired, then proceed with major law suit on the grounds of sexual/gender orientation and you win!

Second, live your life for you not the vermin of a human being your management seems to be comprised of.

Baby, your life isn't worth committing your self to be looking at those monsters everyday and bow before them each time they look onto you with their ugly, guilty eyes, the Spanish inquisition is over, except for Alabama :).

I am sorry about this post but calm has left me and your pain has given raise to frustration. All my love babe, Inna.

[jarts55]

Makes me very upset too. Would love to them out of a job and pennyless and you owning the company. We need to all stand together to get rid of bosses like them. I don't know what to do, but am willing to help.

[Kittykitty]

I had a lawyer flat out tell me that he could win me the whole company with the case I had, but that he wouldn't take the case because there wasn't ENOUGH money involved. Before you think the law will back you, remember that every case needs a lawyer and they are $$$$!

[GypsyKaren]

I remember when I came out at work, I had laws and union backing and supervisors support and a whole bucket of assurances about how I'd have no problems and how I'd be protected, and they had me out the door and into early retirement with a speed and efficiency that even impressed me. Laws are talk, just like that bucket load I had that was only good for pissing in. If a company wants you gone, then believe me, you will be gone, and in a way that covers them.

Arbon, you do what YOU need to do in order to be, but you will survive and still grow if they do get rid of you.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Kaitlyn26]

at least as far as your job goes.

Such a weird feeling.

It has been made very clear that I am going to lose my job if I try to transition at work. There is no doubt and there is no negotiation of the issue.

It is also very likely that I am going to be let go at this point even if I were to stop presenting as a woman outside of work. But it is not final. So I am going to stop presenting as a woman outside of work, in the community, in hopes that it will appease my boss.

Maybe it will work until things look more favorable for me to transition.

There just are not any job opportunities and I don't want to end up destitute. More then that I don't want to take my daughter or partner down that path with me. It is not fair to them.

I am going to stay on my hormones though.

I'm not in a good space tonight.

20+ years

How things change. Going from #1 to piece of dirt.

sigh...

Put a micro recorder in your pocket before you speak about it any further. Get a lawyer, and do what the lawyer says. Do not let a sack of s*** dictate your life, fight back. Keep a backup plan in place in case you lose. It may be more difficult but such is our lives.


I had a lawyer flat out tell me that he could win me the whole company with the case I had, but that he wouldn't take the case because there wasn't ENOUGH money involved. Before you think the law will back you, remember that every case needs a lawyer and they are $$$$!

Did you ask other lawyers or only one?

[david]

Airbon stay on the hormones they will help you i shoud know been on the same for 2 years and now feeling great so right on girl.Ihave now read your story and am horrified that because of your sexual orientation they have taken the step of dismissal i woud have taken them to the cleaners using the sexual discrimination act as the first step they woud have backed down as soon as it hit the papers they woud possibly loose customers so think on and go for it girl

[CharleneT]

Arbon, my heart goes out to you. Your situation is unfortunately very common. I agree completely with Karen on this one, regardless of legal protection, if you boss wants to get rid of you he/she can do it. Normally without too much worry about the legal stuff. One of the things that protects your boss is that you know if you do go for a legal battle it could make other prospective employers very shy of hiring you. Hence my advice is try and stay under the radar at work - and to an extent in public. At the same time, consider a move away. Start planning, looking, figuring out where you might be able to go. Either to another biz or another town. I realize that is horrid advice, you should not have to do this. I am making the assumption that it is a fairly small town and you're reasonably well known. That makes a new town a good thing.

One place where you may find refuge from this problem is employment with the state or feds. If trans is a protected class in your state, chances are they will be more willing to work with that. I do not know why gov work is that way, but it seems to be.

[Michelle James]

What is it that you do for work? I know I am in the same boat and am in process of making a career change since the auto sales thing just isn't that friendly to women, especially those not born physically female

I was in the auto sales game for 11 years and you are correct. Not no way not no how. Car people do not get it and never will. Just my opinion. LOL

[Kittykitty]

Kaitlyn, I talked to about 5 lawyers, some specializing in LGBT law. It was a great case, but even great cases take a lot of money and years to pursue.

If you actually go forward, be prepared to have your entire case "out there." However, your employer should know that too. If they think it's embarrassing for you to deal with their direct clients face to face, imagine how they'll feel seeing it in the news.

There's a lot to consider in a matter like this.

[Aprilrain]

Renie Richards is often sited as a case of someone who regretted transition. Her story has been misconstrued she herself later said that she wished she had transitioned sooner and her only regret was becoming such a public figure in her fight to compete as a woman. she won the right to compete as a female but lost her anonymity in the process, which in many ways is priceless. Something to think about when considering taking a case to trial.

[Kaitlyn26]

Kaitlyn, I talked to about 5 lawyers, some specializing in LGBT law. It was a great case, but even great cases take a lot of money and years to pursue.

If you actually go forward, be prepared to have your entire case "out there." However, your employer should know that too. If they think it's embarrassing for you to deal with their direct clients face to face, imagine how they'll feel seeing it in the news.

There's a lot to consider in a matter like this.

I'm amazed that your employer had no policy that fit to protect you. As much as I dislike my job in retail one good thing about that particular corporation is that they have policies in place to protect employees that make "outside the box" lifestyle choices.

What ultimately happened with your job? Did they know you spoke to a lawyer? I don't think trying to strong arm your employer is a good idea, but wouldn't the prospect of media coverage scare them more than you? That is the reason the corporation I work for has those policies in place.

[ReineD]

All of my clients are still my clients and they pretty much all know. They mostly just care about the work getting done and the price we charge.

My approach may be naive or otherwise not applicable, but if I were in your shoes, I'd approach the situation head-on.

If I knew that my work was respected by the clients, they knew about me and they cared more about the work and the prices than my presentation, I would approach one or two of the major clients, take them out for a drink, and have a heart-to-heart with them. I'd share my plans to transition and also my desire to continue meeting their professional needs to the very best of my ability. I'd ask them if they have a problem with that, and I'd also tell them I respect our professional relationship enough to let them know what is going on and seek their thoughts.

If the responses were positive, I'd let them know that my boss was afraid of losing business because of my transition and I would ask them if they might let him know that the professional relationship would not be compromised, should I go ahead with the transition. Plus, I'd know if it didn't work out with my boss, I'd have a chance they'd stick with me if I went out on my own.

If the responses were negative, then I'd be in no worse situation than before talking to them. I'd thank them and let them know I understand, there are no hard feelings, and I will continue to give them the very best service as long as I am still in my position. Then I'd think long and hard about the next step and in the meantime, look for another job. I also would know that if I did strike out on my own in competition with my boss, if the clients are not open to the transition, then they would likely stay with him.

How much do you think the clients know already?


Laws are talk, just like that bucket load I had that was only good for pissing in.

This is my experience as well. There are custody and divorce guidelines that are supposed to protect the child's best interests and also be equitable. Unfortunately there are judges that follow their own twisted agendas.

[Shelly Preston]

I was thinking depending on the company they might actually be better off keeping you.

They can then show themselves to be a forward thinking company who do not discrimanate on grounds of gender

This might be an idea depending on how many clients know

[Kathryn Martin]

Reine, not at all naive. The approach that you outline is spot on. Create allies within the framework of your work. It seems from the original post that many of her clients already know and accept her appearances. The boss it seems to me just tries to put pressure on because he does not want to lose her. In some instances it might be useful to get a psychologist involved to create a climate for conversation that focuses on the win-win approach for both parties. Litigation and claims are all fine (but very expensive) but invariably result in the complete destruction of any common ground so that the employment relationship cannot continue.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i just reread your Original post...

YOU ARE NOT DIRT!!! It's business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you have to look at it that way.. in business everything matters.. ..you are trying to earn a living and so are they..

your company/partners will do what's in their best interest, and so should you...it's not personal.

as a business owner, if i want person A gone, and person A comes in with lawyers and psychiatrists to convince me to keep person A, there is no win-win... business don't want to spend the time , they don't want to spend the money, they don't have a heart or a soul unless you are irreplaceable, have a unique skill, or you have pictures of the boss...it will be very difficult to bring them over..

surely it's worth a try, but if you think they don't want you, then you are out.

it's naive to think otherwise..if they don't want you , unless you have something in your contract, they can do it for whatever reason they want.. unless you have actual proof of wrongdoing, you have no "case",.... they aren't that worried about what people will say..surely they will consider it, but also consider how YOU would feel having your name out there...your brand will be destroyed..theirs will not...do all of the GLAAD protests stop people going to homophobic movies?? heck no...can you remember the last 2 GLAAD protests??

once you are out as a ts whistleblower, that's your last job in your industry, and you risk having media people involved in your life, which is never a good thing..

if you fight it out, your company has resources that you don't...they have no incentive to "be nice"...they want you gone, and they know that if they "lose", they'd just give you back pay, perhaps some small damages, and then hire you back...no worse off than if they kept you in the first place...

so you have to be a business person.. you have to test the waters, push a little, see if you have any support, if not, no army of therapists will help..if you know you are gone, then you have to try to stay as long as possible..how much can you make now? can you delay for a couple months to save up? tell them that you are not transitioning, F$ them, maybe can you work on things quietly and gut it out at work as a guy for a bit?...

however, your mental health is important and must be considered.. if you are transitioning and that's what you need to feel good, then you have to deal with that too...in business everything matters..you never know what happens in a week or a month....maybe in six weeks some idiot calls you a name, and all of sudden you have leverage you don't have today..maybe you have enough leverage to get some $$ to leave, maybe they will help you with job placement (this sounds so awful, but if you leave, and you likely will, its a great thing to have)

whatever you do...your thinking needs to get cold and clear right now..no feeling like dirt allowed...
you cannot count on legal or medical pros to help you...what's "right" and what's "wrong" matters in life, but right here right now, it doesn't matter to you...you need to go for what's "best" for you..

so go head on...figure out what YOUR best case is and go for it... this is not a recipe for success, its just the recipe that gives you the best chance for the best outcome for YOU

if you leave well, you may get something you want, you may get a reference that gets you the next gig, you may be able sleep nights..
if you leave ugly, you need to consider ALL the implications, including your professional future, and your mental health.

[arbon]

My approach may be naive or otherwise not applicable, but if I were in your shoes, I'd approach the situation head-on.

If I knew that my work was respected by the clients, they knew about me and they cared more about the work and the prices than my presentation, I would approach one or two of the major clients, take them out for a drink, and have a heart-to-heart with them. I'd share my plans to transition and also my desire to continue meeting their professional needs to the very best of my ability. I'd ask them if they have a problem with that, and I'd also tell them I respect our professional relationship enough to let them know what is going on and seek their thoughts.

If the responses were positive, I'd let them know that my boss was afraid of losing business because of my transition and I would ask them if they might let him know that the professional relationship would not be compromised, should I go ahead with the transition. Plus, I'd know if it didn't work out with my boss, I'd have a chance they'd stick with me if I went out on my own.

If the responses were negative, then I'd be in no worse situation than before talking to them. I'd thank them and let them know I understand, there are no hard feelings, and I will continue to give them the very best service as long as I am still in my position. Then I'd think long and hard about the next step and in the meantime, look for another job. I also would know that if I did strike out on my own in competition with my boss, if the clients are not open to the transition, then they would likely stay with him.

How much do you think the clients know already?



Thanks Reine -that is actually very useful.

They know quite a bit. Several have expressed support and a few have even offered to talk to my employer to let him know that they don't feel it would impact our professional relationship. Many have seen me as a woman outside of work.

I have not pursued what you are suggesting more though, only because I hate the idea of dragging them into this mess.

However there are a few clients who are not going to be comfortable with it but there is no reason why someone else could not handle those accounts, and they are not significant accounts anyway.

This is a letter I got from one client in March:

"Dear (male name),

I can’t deny that you took me by surprise when you first told me of your need to become the gender that you have always felt you were inside – female.

Since you are one of my favorite people on this earth, all I can say is that I want what will make you happy and what is best for you.

When I talked to my son **** about your decision, he too agreed that this was a big and probably the right move for you. He wondered if you would be happier and feel more accepted in a bigger and more progressive city.

I reminded him, that the (area name) is filled with people who have big hearts and big minds. For most of us, your decision is not shocking or uncomfortable. I believe you will be accepted and embraced for your bravery. For my part, I am rarely interested in people with closed minds.

From a business standpoint, I don’t expect my working relationship with you to change. Of all the people I have worked with since my career began in 1978, I don’t think I have met anyone who works harder and is as dedicated to getting the job done.

At (company), you are the person I like to deal with because you are totally aware of the projects I have going on in the **** shop. You are able to let me know when my clients can expect their jobs. You oversee the jobs so that the client won’t be disappointed in the final product. You are able to tell me details about what I can and can’t do for the layout. You have always been able to help me with paper stock, paginating properly, getting the bid quickly and dozens of other questions that arise. Not to mention you deliver the jobs right to the client. Everyone appreciates that.

When I have mentioned you with local clients—who also agree you are one of a kind—I have often joked that I thought maybe you hooked yourself up with an I.V. to the press and ran the thing all night. To me you are that dedicated. (bosses name) is very lucky to have you working for him.

Wishing you all the best and looking forward to many years of working together."

The last couple of days I have been feeling very depressed about the whole thing because I had actually started to feel some hope about keeping my job recently (this issue has been going on for the last several months) because things at work had been feeling more relaxed about it. But that hope was kinda smashed Monday (again).

But I do keep forgetting about what I do have going for me. I get stuck in all the negative.

I do need to start taking more action and start playing some of my cards. There is not much to loose at this point. I am being to passive about it all, like I don't have options or am afraid to try. That is not doing me any good.

Thanks for letting me talk about this here and for the responses. I hope everyone has a great day today.

Theresa

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Theresa it sure looks to me that you have some stuff going for you...

it's still true that they may want you out, but it looks like you have more ammo than i thought based on your OP, where you said it was clear and there was no negotiation..

so play it smart..think it through.. i still don't like lawyers and psychiatrists as your advocates..you need to be your advocate..take it to the top when you are prepared and make your case...based on your new info that looks like its still in your best interest..

it's really hard...going through this with my company took months and i lost alot of sleep over it..

[arbon]

so play it smart..think it through.. i still don't like lawyers and psychiatrists as your advocates..you need to be your advocate..take it to the top when you are prepared and make your case...based on your new info that looks like its still in your best interest..

.

I really have no intention of trying to go legal, even if there was any kind of case to be made. Its not me.

Playing it smart is the key phrase. I get so caught up in the emotions and drama of it all I don't think things through well and just want to give up. I do need to be a better advocate for myself.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I really have no intention of trying to go legal, even if there was any kind of case to be made. Its not me.

Playing it smart is the key phrase. I get so caught up in the emotions and drama of it all I don't think things through well and just want to give up. I do need to be a better advocate for myself.

i had to learn this for myself. I approached it very emotionally at first, and this was in hindsight a mistake....probably unavoidable though..

[Linda Z]

I have always believed that you need to own yourself and your work. So start you own. Its hard, but its easier than what you are going through now.

Linda

[CharleneT]

Reine's idea is good. I have a very small business that is mostly dependent on my reputation with my clients. When I decided to go full time, I basically did what she is suggesting. Now in my case I was not asking them to talk to a boss about it, but still the idea of feeling out a few major clients first to test the winds does work. I lost a few, but honestly, no one major. By the time I went full time, it also helped that my clients knew, and so when questions came up, they were ready with answers. The last thing you want is to have them be blind sided by a rumor. Business relationships are almost always a bit "loose", capable of being changed given the right circumstances. One of the advantages of Reine's suggestions are they allow your clients to figure things out in private.

[Cindi Johnson]

Very few of us live in areas where we have any legal protection. Transgender discrimination is basically legal in this country. You probably have no options beyond (a) quit dressing, or (b) find a more accepting job, or (c) move away and start a new life. And as your post hints at, quitting may not help, either; once it's widely known that you are TG, well, let's just say Pandora's box has been opened.
Don't blame the ACLU; they can't enforce laws which don't exist. One other thing you can do: get involved in politics. Vote. No, this won't help you, but it could make life a bit better for TG's who have yet to be born; it may give them a better chance than many of us had.