Closeted Crossdressers Lack "GUTS" and a "SACK." Or do We? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Anne2345

08-06-2011, 12:57 AM

I am a MtF crossdresser, and I choose to be in the closet. But why am I in the closet? Do I lack “guts” and a “sack?” In a thread started by Pythos (“Who here hates hiding?”), a member stated that those that hide, i.e., those in the closet such as I, lack “guts” and a “sack.”

In response to Pythos’ legitimate, well-thought out and well-intentioned question, I responded, in essence, that although I love my closet, and am happy within it, that there are certain things I would enjoy doing in public, such as keeping my body hairless and smooth during the summer, and displaying my painted toes in public that I do not do. In response, the following was posted:

There's only one reason why anyone can't keep their body smooth and toes painted... guts.

In response to this member, I explained that “guts” was not the issue, rather the real issue for me is my “reality,” – i.e., I have a job and a family to think about above and beyond my own selfish desires. And such “selfish desires,” in the context I have written, presumes I have desire to dress in public. Incidentally, but of no consequence to this post, I do not. I am quite happy within my closet.

Regardless, my abbreviated explanation was met with further insult. Specifically, the response to my post stated:

Your entire argument is built on the premise that you'd be "throwing it all away." I say your premise is false.

Stay in the closet, Anne. It's CDs like you that create and perpetuate the very situation you lament.

I just drove home from work in denim short shorts, shaved legs and pink toenails. I stopped for gas, a cold drink, went to the grocery store and went to check my mail after I got home. Every day, people become MORE aware of CDs because of me. What are YOU doing for us?

In yet another response, the very same member went on to state “We would suffer less ridicule . . . . But that's not going to happen until some people grow some sack.”

So is this where the closeted crossdressing community is? Are we really comprised of gutless, sackless girls? I know some here would argue what’s the point of having a “sack” in the first place, but I digress . . . . :heehee:

Seriously, though, since I have joined this forum in March, I have seen and participated in this argument before. Heck, I even unwittingly started such an argument, having no idea whatsoever that there were crossdressers out there that despised me because I am in the closet.

But why am I [i]really in the closet? Fortunately, I know the answer to my own question. I am in the closet because I love my closet, I have an accepting wife, I live in a community that would discriminate against me, both my career and my wife’s career would by in jeopardy, I have a six year old child that I would prefer not to be bullied in the school yard because of me, I have bills to pay, I have friends that I would prefer to keep, I would prefer to maintain my years of work and effort in networking among various people and businesses, and I have no desire to share this part of myself with others, with the exception of this otherwise wonderful forum.

Despite the unfortunate belief of some here, not every crossdresser has a desire to express herself in public. I am one such crossdresser. Oddly enough, I also just happen to love myself, accept myself, and thrive within the life I have created for myself. What more can I ask for?

Noticeably absent from my list of reasons why I choose not to leave the closet, however, if you take the time to review my list, you will note that I have not listed that I suffer from a lack of “guts” or a “sack.”

So in this, how am I, or any of my other closeted sisters, the target of such hateful, vicious stones thrown by other crossdressers? Such militant crossdressers may claim that they “love” all, and want the “best” for all, but who are they to determine what is best for each individual crossdresser? Last time I checked, I do not recall voting for a Supreme Crossdresser. Do they want what is best for all, or do they selfishly want what is best for themselves? Unless I am completely missing something, and I do not believe I am, it makes absolutely no sense to me.

I, for one, support all members of the transgendered community, whether in the closet or out in the open. We have it hard enough as it is without engaging in such internal fighting and squabbles, do we not?

And as for what I am doing for the likes of those crossdressers that chastise me for not coming out of my closet, what do I owe such a group in the first place? I owe them nothing! This is my life, and I shall live my life according to how I deem fit. I am a crossdresser, and I am quite proud to be one. But this does not mean that I also have to be a martyr, or sign up for a life of transgender activism.

For those of you that are out and about in public, doing what you believe will help the community as a whole, I thank you, and appreciate your efforts. Truly, I do. But please do not cross the line by attempting to recruit me, or any of my other closet dwelling sisters, into your cause through fear and shame tactics. Crossdressers are composed of a beautiful, caring, loving folk. Let’s please be appreciative of each other, supportive of each other, and not lower ourselves to the standards of those who discriminate against us. After all, we cannot possibly expect discrimination to cease against us, if we discriminate against each other within our own ranks.

So the question to my fellow crossdressing closet dwellers is this – do we lack “guts” and a “sack,” or are there other reasons why we remain in the closet? And to those of you out there that cast stones at me and my sisters, know that I respect and hope for the best for you. I support all crossdressers. I simply ask for the same consideration, respect, and support that I give to you. I hope that is not to much to ask for . . . .

Badtranny

08-06-2011, 01:54 AM

Oh Anne I hate to tell you this but you are wasting perfectly good eloquence on what is basically the same as yelling down a well.

I've seen your other posts on this subject and your point is very well stated. I happen to agree with you 100% and I share your frustration at being "called out" by the militants. But, the people you are trying to reach are unreachable. There is an element of any society that honestly feels like their opinions should not only be heard but seriously considered. To them, brushing off their position as mere advice to be taken or discarded is literally insulting. They seriously think their input is more valuable and you should consider yourself quite fortunate to be receiving it. It sounds like I'm kidding, but I'm not.

These people do not exist in my life because I simply won't allow it anymore. To paraphrase a greater mind than I, "I do not suffer fools or control freaks gladly". Much like pessimists and complainers, these people are poison and I've found my life to be so much more pleasant by avoiding them altogether. It's not nearly as easy on the internet as it is in real life though is it.

So there are TS women who don't want me in their club and CD'rs who don't want you in theirs. Breathe it in baby because this is what it feels like to stand against the wind. ;-)

You can be part of my club any time.

jennCD

08-06-2011, 01:59 AM

Reason stands that not everyone is equally effective in their skills to debate, thus you find the type of responses that I've noticed appearing on this forum as of late.

With regard to the quote attributed to Duana: "What are YOU doing for us?", my answer is a simple one:

As a member of this community, I am not required nor do I feel the need to do anything,... in the same sense that by being a musician, I am not required nor do I feel the need to do anything to help further the community of local musicians who so desperately want to be heard,...in the same sense that by being a parent, I am not required nor do I feel the need to do anything to assist all the parents of the world who may not be struggling with their own personal family issues.

My choices in life depend less on the amount of "guts" I have or the weight of my "sack" but are based more on the amount of brains I use to make the correct choices in my life, which at this point, still affects a number of people that I care about.... but I'm not denying anyone here the right to prefer the former so feel free to march to your own drummers cos I do.

:)
jenn

Violetgray

08-06-2011, 02:00 AM

I think that it's easy to insist that others break out of their closet into the mainstream when you don't have to go to that person's job, community or be in a relationship with their spouse. That detachment is what I think makes comments of that sort possible. I don't think that people should be shamed into coming out.

However...

I refuse to believe it when people say they love their closet. The only time I love restriction is when it's around my waist. Seems to me like you've weighed the options and the risks outweigh the benefits. That's perfectly logical. Divers that go down into the waters in a cage do so because there are sharks in the water, not because shark cages are so awesome that you would rather stay in them than swim around free.

I think fear drives most people to stay in the closet, but it is a very understandable, human type of fear and I don't think it's fair to call people "gutless" who take the "better safe than sorry" approach.

AliceJaneInNewcastle

08-06-2011, 02:25 AM

The way I see it, there are 2 distinct categories of CDs who are in the closet, and it is entirely normal for someone to move from the first to the second, because a lot of us start off in the first category and move to the second. Some then move further to going out, some don't. It is also entirely normal for some people to remain in the first category for their entire life. Everybody has a place within the gender spectrum at any given time in their life.

The first category is those who have no desire to ever go out. The second category is those who do have a desire to go out but don't.

As best I can determine, you are in the first category and are talking specifically about others who are also in the first category.

I don't have a problem with people who don't want to go out, and I would never pressure them to go out because it's clearly not what they want.

To the people who do want to go out but are too fearful of the perceived consequences to do so, I and others here try to show that most of the fears that stop them are irrational.

Who is going to bully my 8yo son in the school yard? The kid whose grandmother (one of my neighbours) is in a lesbian relationship? One of my TS friends was out for the entire time her son was at school, as she was already full time and on hormones when he was conceived. He has always called her dad, and never had a problem all the way through school including a religious high school. To some kids today, having a gender variant parent is a status symbol.

The only closeted CDs that I really have an issue with are those who emphasise the negative things that they imagine could happen and try to convince others who do want to go out not to. I believe that such behaviour is incredibly inappropriate and does not help anybody.

VioletJourney

08-06-2011, 02:32 AM

Obviously with some people it might be true, with others it might not. It depends on each situation.

Rianna Humble

08-06-2011, 04:12 AM

I refuse to believe it when people say they love their closet. The only time I love restriction is when it's around my waist. Seems to me like you've weighed the options and the risks outweigh the benefits. That's perfectly logical. Divers that go down into the waters in a cage do so because there are sharks in the water, not because shark cages are so awesome that you would rather stay in them than swim around free.

To continue your diving analogy, do you not think that the caged divers "love" their cage whilst it prevents them from being eaten by the sharks?

The divers may wish that they could swim around freely but in the hostile environment of the shark-infested waters at least they are able to indulge in their love of being underwater in safety.

In the same way, Anne has already said that there are things that she wishes she could do, but in the hostile environment where she lives, it is better to have the protection of the closet and for this reason she "loves" the closet for the fact that it allows her to indulge her cross-dressing in safety.

Going back to the OP (although I don't quite fit either of the two audiences that Anne was addressing), no-one has the right to bully another member into going out or staying in. We may share our experiences to try to encourage you, but we do not have the right to insist that you copy us.

There is a place for those who act as advocates (well there had better be or I have wasted my life) but those of us who take on such a role have no right to look down on those for whom we claim to be acting as advocates.

In the other thread, someone stated quite baldly that you were hiding because of your fears but then quite correctly went on to say that it is your choice whether you do this or not.

All through our lives we weigh up the possible consequences of whatever we are thinking of doing, then if we fear the negative consequences more than the apparent benefits, we decide not to act on that desire. Sometimes, our fears may be unfounded, or at least exaggerated, but only we have the right to make that choice for our own lives - no-one else.

Cynthia Anne

08-06-2011, 04:50 AM

GUTLESS! Really! You call me gutless and I'll spit some beachnut in your eye! And than the real fun can began! Sorry! Some people bring out the beast in me!
I would rather be considered gutless than to be so self centered and selfish! There's no room in my life for selfishness! Although I'm not in the closet I think it takes REAL guts to stay in there and put your family first! To give up somthing such as not going in public dressed for your wife and childs future is an act of unselfishness and takes guts to do! Hugs Anne! Love you girl!

noeleena

08-06-2011, 05:37 AM

Hi.

Anne . is that it because you dont go out dressed so what , i see no problem with that , in fact why should any one place on you thier thoughts as to because they do some thing that you cant do.

Try this i have dyslexcia major learning probs cant spell many words , have no memory from age 1 to 6. & even 7 , what i do have im not sure of & that was told by my Mum. a loner hated being in front of people , could not string 2 lines to gether let alone stand in fornt of people & talk. plus a lot of other probs . & no camaras im gone.

would you say i dont have the guts to do any of those things or would it be it was not posible to do them ,certinly not in my former years some 20 years ,

You see some times there are issues that we can not work through or we are incapible to do it , for what ever reason.

People should realise we cant all be speakers or fly planes or be builders or be out & dressed.

Im a woman in my own right , been in front of over 3 millon people T V nation wide talked to 100;s of people in meetings interviewed for papers , im a builder & have flown planes.

How could i, i over came so many diffcultys in my life not perfectly in every detail . yet i have . i wont say i did that by my self no . i had help at the right time .

Im a strong woman & i needed to be to be able to be who i am & get where i am now.

Now this does not mean or implyed you have to do what iv been able to do it just says we are all different & we dont all do the same things in our lifes & its not a test that we all have to pass,
Its about being who we are , we are individuales not robots .I have not put this up to say oh look im better than you or others , its about we can work to gether we can help each other to be who we should be , to encougage each other, along the way. i look at others here & think they can do things i cant do,

Im not jealous & why should i be . i think its great we all have some thing to offer. i have my lacks my failings & things i'v been able to do .

One miner ? whats ment by sack.thats got me.

...noeleena...

BRANDYJ

08-06-2011, 07:01 AM

How insensitive it is to call anyone gutless and lacking a sack because we are not like them. I consider myself in the closet but with the door open since I have shared this side of me with very carefully selected friends and loved ones. But the cost of going public dressed in fem mode is way to high. No, it's not fear, it's common sense! it's also my choice not to be pointed at, laughed at, humiliated by even those I don't know. Yes, I care what people think of me...again, even those I will never see again. So I'll stay semi closeted for the sake of my own comfort level. I've seen men out ion public that look hideous dressed feminine. Especially those that have beards or mustaches, or otherwise do not attempt to blend or pass! I would not and could not humiliate myself to go public looking like a clown and become a laughing stock. I believe some should stay in the closet. I would be read by 90% of people and that would embarrass me and perhaps make some very uncomfortable in dealing with me. I will not thrust my pension to dress on those that would be uncomfortable with it.
The person who said those of us in the closet lack a sack and are gutless is totally out of order. As others have said, we need to live our lives to make us happy. It is not up to anyone to dictate where or when I crossdress.

PretzelGirl

08-06-2011, 07:01 AM

Just so that it doesn't get lost in the message, I want to put up front that it takes guts to suppress a part of yourself for the good of your family. That certainly won't fit everyone, but there are some that it fits.

When you come on this forum, you will find that if there is a possible opinion, there is probably someone who will voice it, good or bad. Most of the time I just scroll down and not waste my breath (note I said "most") on the ones that are unaccepting. I am here to get and receive support, to feel for the other members, and to laugh with them. We have a common bond no matter whether we are CD, TS, spouse, daughter, friend, etc...

I don't care if we make presenting in woman's clothing mainstream. There will be some that only want to do it in private. So what? It is called having rights. Sometimes it may be because of work, family, friends, or the need doesn't drive a person to go out. Pick another thousand reasons. It is up to a person to decide what they want to do and it doesn't show a lack of any type of intestinal fortitude if you don't go out.

As someone who gets out, I want to support those that are trying to get out in the beginning. But I try to always preface my comments saying "if" they want to get out. A person has to make that determination on their own. For those that say that getting out makes us more mainstream and that will lead us down the path to acceptance, yes that is probably true. But we aren't all in a position to step out front. That is okay, we all have to measure if it is right for us or not.

BRANDYJ

08-06-2011, 07:06 AM

Very well said Sue! I agree 100%

Marcia Blue

08-06-2011, 07:12 AM

Lunchbox

08-06-2011, 08:24 AM

I do not hide in the closet, because those close around me already know of my gift. Those who dont, are not either mature enough or do not know simply because they gain nothing and I lose nothing by them knowing v.s not knowing. Also, It really should not be looked at as hiding in the closet untill you fail to disclose information with someone of great emotional value and trust to you. Best friend/lover/so etc. Rather I look at it as respect for everyone else. No one wants to be the center of attention. To have a spotlight right on you and your mannerisms. I dont want to know if mr. x is cheating on his wife, its none of my concern. The same goes for mr.z Its none of his concern that I enjoy shaving my legs, painting my nails, putting on makeup, and going to a rave in my best club outfit and dancing with my girlfriend the entire night.

Point is, noone wants to be the center of attention with EVERY person they encounter. And everyone will have something to blush about when the light is shined on every dark crevice of someones mind/life.

Lee Andrews

08-06-2011, 08:29 AM

Lunchbox

08-06-2011, 08:45 AM

Nothing wrong with being in the closet. I have one foot out of the closet and it works for me. I don't need to prove anything to anybody. Cross-dressing acceptance will or will not happen without me and that is my choice. For my family and I this is how dressing works, hidden. I'm lucky to have an somewhat accepting wife and my closet is my house. Good enough for me.

If pushing the boundaries works for you, good, have at her. Calling people gutless for not doing it your way is horseshit. Each person needs to look at what works for them and not a stranger on the Net.

I have to live my life not you.

You made me think of something, the type of person who calls on gutless/loser/doing it wrong on a subject that can be interpeted many different ways is an elitest attitude. It happens in all cultures. School culture(you made the wrong friends), video game culture(you should have done x not y), drug culture(why arent you shooting that up its a waste), music culture(techno is life, dio is gods voice etc.), car culture(your honda is a pos my chevvy is the way to go), CD/TS/TV culture(your not doing it as good as me, or enough like me, so your wrong). There will always be elitests, and biggots. Infact this attitude started ww2. The jews werent being humans correctly in the bigots eyes. It was nothing to do with any respect, disrespect, or understanding. They were doing it wrong in the bigots eyes.

TL;DR

Those who say you/me/anyone is gutless, is simply an elitest, and theyre going to be EVERYWHERE in life.

TxKimberly

08-06-2011, 08:52 AM

LeannL

08-06-2011, 08:54 AM

The sooner everyone here realizes that none of us here are gutless, the better. (Well there maybe one or two but not for the reasons we are talking about.) We are all dealing with our gender status one way or another. Some feel the need to leave the closet. That takes some "guts" but it also takes guts to look at your priorities and live by them. Anne, you have assessed them and appear to be living by them. It takes guts to say my family's well being comes ahead of my desires. With the often strong desires that come with CDing, it takes a lot of will power (guts) to control them. You (and everyone else here who has some modicum of control over their life even if it isn't their ideal) should be commended for dealing with the hand that has been dealt to you! It takes GUTS to do so.

Jocelyn Quivers

08-06-2011, 08:56 AM

I do not care if certain members that I willl never see or meet choose to label me as gutless. My reality is I also have a mortgage and my families health insurance to pay for. So therefore I will continue to keep my gutless self in the closet in order maintain those things and will not go jeopardize my families life for the cause or to stick it to the man I do not enjoy it but it very much so is my reality that I have to answer to every day.

Crissy Kay

08-06-2011, 09:00 AM

Making our own choices is what freedom means in the first place.

Andrea's Lynne

08-06-2011, 09:18 AM

I'm with you, Anne! Do what makes you feel comfortable

Jamie001

08-06-2011, 09:18 AM

To those who are in the closet, have you considered pushing the envelope? This means wearing fem clothing, or makeup in male mode? For example, wearing a fem hairstyle, nail polish, or other items that are considered feminine in male mode? Women obtained fashion freedom by wearing men's clothing such as pants, neckties, men's shoes, etc as a woman. In other words, not trying to deceive folks that you are the opposite gender. Men are already openly wearing earrings, even large diamonds. Why don't we just start pushing the envelope of what is considered to be acceptable for men? Women have been doing this for years and they have achieved fashion freedom.

In my case, I have a fem hairstyle with highlights 24/7, wear women's shoes and display my bright red toenails in women's sandals whenever I am not at work but I don't go all of the way to appear as a woman.

Jocelyn Quivers

08-06-2011, 09:27 AM

Jamie001

08-06-2011, 09:40 AM

For some of us, our employers have very strict dress code policies which do not allow any variation from the normal male presentation, this can include having no long hair, nail polish, ear rings etc. In other words you must appear as a "100% guy" :2c:

Have you considered that these dress codes may be illegal? If women are allowed to wear earrings and long hair, then the same must be allowed for men otherwise it is considered discrimination.

Shelly Preston

08-06-2011, 09:53 AM

We are individuals brought together because of crossdressing

It is an individual choice made after receiving as much information as we can give them.

We are not hear to judge anyone we are hear to support them in anyway we can.

Nolwenn Elizabeth

08-06-2011, 09:54 AM

So is this where the closeted crossdressing community is? Are we really comprised of gutless, sackless girls? I know some here would argue what’s the point of having a “sack” in the first place, but I digress . . . . :heehee:

Anne, I agree totally. For me, the *whole* point of CD is to not have a "sack." :eek:

My reasons for being "in the closet" are my own. This is what I want to do. This is when I want to do it and how I want to do it. Nobody else is paying for this. I don't ask for nothin' from nobody. Nobody here really knows me or most of what I've been through in the last 48 years. I don't want to share that. If I did I'd be on another board. Or in a group IRL. I love to wear women's clothes. This is a board for crossdressers of all shapes and sizes and flavors. Well, "types" would be a better word. :o

So I'm with you Anne. :hugs:
Dawnie

I finally remembered the other reason. CD and my "real" life outside the closet don't match up. They don't need to. CD is my personal little playground and I don't necessarily want to share it with anyone else. Especially if they aren't supportive of me. This is my fun time. :2c:

suchacutie

08-06-2011, 10:01 AM

Frankly, it was a bit of a shock to realize, just 6 years ago, that I was transgendered. It must be that I was so absorbed with all the changes that happened in my life that I just didn't notice this remarkable attitude by some members of our community. Heck, I initially didn't even realize the remarkable bigotry that exists in many people against transgenderism! Since I had a wife who was not only helpful and supportive but downright enthusiastic about the two of us learning about this feminine side of me (and teaching her what it is like to be feminine) my experience was incredibly positive from one learning experience to another. Pretty incredible, huh? I thought I had found a community that really pulled together and was, most importantly, empathetic about the issues that we all face at one time or another. Airing those issues help us all, well they certainly helped me.

In a couple of recent threads, the theme of, "if you aren't out of the closet you aren't helping our community!". OMG what a myopic statement! Can anyone possibly think that the only way to support each other is to go out in public, no matter what? The answer is, "apparently so!". Personally I find it much more rewarding to interact with people individually who state erroneous statements about being transgendered. In the long run, this may be the most effective way to change the general attitude.

And then we get the themem or, "there can't be any other reason that you are not out in public than fear!" Again, what a myopic view of the world! Life is not that simple or simplistic. A thoughtful person will weigh all of the possible consequences of any action in life, no? Considering all the negatives that currently swirl around transgenderism in society today, I think that as a group we are forced to be thoughtful and aware. Also, considering the remarkable internal pressures to present our femme selves, it is restraint and self-control that are difficult mental qualities to maintain.

Lastly, for those of us who in loving and open relationships with our spouses, our feminine selves are just one of many considerations that make up that loving relationship. What we do inside of that relationship is really no one else's business, and cannont be criticized by anyone in a just way. Likewise, those of us who are in a relationship where transgenderism was initially hidden for whatever reason, constraints exist that are immensely difficult and gut-wrenching. How can we criticize that situation in terms of activisim?

We all enjoy hearing about the trial, tribulations, and joys of those "out and about". It's a part of the learning process for the whole community. Thank you so much, all of you who are out in public! Tina has learned so much from you over these six years and has made her transition from nonexistance to reality much easier!

Tina

mercterr

08-06-2011, 10:07 AM

In some jobs, you may find yourself demoted, or transferred if your employer finds out about your crossdressing. That is bad enough. However, consider the fireman, police officer, EMT or soldier. He depends on his workmates for his life. Discrimination in those jobs could be a slow backup or no backup on a dangerous call, failure to cover your squad mate in a firefight. And imagine the fireman living in a firehouse with a crew of guys who know he crossdresses and don't approve.

All of these jobs have strict grooming and uniform policies for both their male an female employees. They dictate such things as style and length of socks permitted, length of hair, types and limits on jewelry worn, visability of tattoos, etc... Are these policies illegal?

MaidInCan

08-06-2011, 10:12 AM

Lots of good, honest opinions here with lots of good points being made. We are here of our own free will, not to be insulted or to insult, but to learn, discuss (diverse views but not imposed on others), support, be supported, to encourage not discourage. Push crossdressing forward not repress it. Let each enjoy it in their own way to the extent they wish. There is no right way or wrong way, although we strive to attain certain plateaus to make ourselves better as best we can. Nobody currently on this earth is perfect.

Christina Horton

08-06-2011, 10:21 AM

I have not read all responses for I have to go soon BUT.... I will say that before I came out "as did all CDs that did not come out of the womb dressed , or as a very Young child" I was 22 when I told my family and 38 before I walked out my door fully dressed as Christina. Why did I wait so long. Did I not have guts or a sack. NO I just was not ready yet. Just that simple for me. You and others say you want to stay in the closet and that great , if your happy who's to say its wrong or your doing nothing for all of us. It's people like the $%#@'s that get mad or criticize you that make me mad. You don't need guts to go out.... You need the want or desire to go out.
But there is one thing I'd like to say and it's not a criticism of you or anyone who's in the closet but you said "Despite the unfortunate belief of some here, not every crossdresser has a desire to express herself in public. I am one such crossdresser." Now I think in a small way you want others like minded here and other places on line to know your fem-side. So in a small way your out for all to see , just not everyone will think to look for you here lol.

I am soooo glad I took that first step outside and wish all others could feel what I feel and that may be in part why they are rude and cruel in what they say and how they say it. Not in defence of them just trying to understand the mind of a %$#*!

If the closet is where you want to be , Just make sure it's a walk in so you can twirl that skirt..... ;)

Robyn2006

08-06-2011, 10:34 AM

Good lord, what a great bunch of ladies you all are! I've read each and every post in this thread and am so happy to have this forum to share my thoughts and read those of others… all within, yes, my closeted world. Like Anne, others who've posted, and most all in the closet, we've a life that must come first. I'm single, so it would certainly be easier for me to migrate to the real world than those of you with families. And although I'd transition to womanhood in a heartbeat it I were to win the lottery, the career I built for myself would simply not allow this. The bear of it is that I LOVE my 20+ year career and have many people counting on me. You'll have to trust me on this, coming out is not an option. It's not a matter of guts, it's a matter of survival and fulfilling the commitments I have made. If I had things to do over, could go back and have a long talk with my much younger self, I would likely have done things much differently and had perhaps been able to carve out a life in which I could openly be the woman I feel myself to be, may even have transitioned completely. But the paint has dried on more than my nails and it's a closeted life for me. However, this is not a sad thing, not a gutless thing… it's just what has come to be and I have not only accepted this, but relish so much my private world, like these Saturday mornings when I can roll out of bed, become as gorgeous as the lighting will allow, and share my thoughts with kindred spirits. And for those who want more from me, those with an agenda all their own… well, to quote Mr. Dylan "go away from my door and my window too." :battingeyelashes:

Mary Morgan

08-06-2011, 10:36 AM

I vote for personal choice, choice to stay in or step out, a little or a lot. Our choices may be driven by marital status, career, location, faith, appearance, time of life, you name it. In the end we all have to decide for ourselves and I do not spend a lot of time worrying about what others may say or feel. I do care about my wife and children and I choose to act accordingly. They know I dress, they have all seen me dressed, I do not suffer from any prohibitions on their part. Rather I choose to accommodate the family that is so precious to me. I dress when I want and go where I want within those accommodations and it works well for me. I do not feel that I am missing out and I am not interested in calling any more attention to myself en femme than I am in drab. "To thine own self be true", and if I might add, all of thine self.

You live your life as you see fit, I'll do the same, and we'll all have rich and fulfilling lives. Anne, You go girl!

Pythos

08-06-2011, 10:37 AM

Here is the question though.

Would you ever have gone into "the closet" or felt compelled to hide were it not for ignorance, bigotry, and in many ways stupidity?

I know for sure that I would not. If my mother was not so closed off to the idea of men gaining the same style freedom as women, I would wear skirts almost on a daily basis.

It is a product of fear. As much as you may like that closet, you most likely would never have even thought of staying in it had it not been for the fear factor.

Paranoia is another factor. I'll admit it, I suffer from that...badly.

If every Gay individual wanted to stay in the closet do you think they would have gotten anywhere?

The thing is I have read people here use the term militant. I am offended by that word, because I am one that can fit that description. Militants, or radicals are almost always the ones to change things, but they also need to be in greater numbers. If everyone stays in the closet, this will never ever be. I have heard one of the reason the Gay comunity does not support as much is mainly due to the fact we hide. Why should they support a group that is unwilling to support themselves? That is the gist of what I have read and heard.

Personally I want ALL cders to get out of that damndable closet, and show themselves, and by all I include all those NOT on this forum, including FtoMs. I think the numbers would be shocking.

I have said it before, and I will again. Hiding helps no one in the long term. All that it does is perpetuate the BS.

My mom went and visited my school in tennis outfits....the bullies beat me up for that, along with my montgomery Ward bike, my "cheap" shoes, my red hair, my squeaky voice, and what have you. Kids are little bast turds for the most part, and will bully for the slightest thing. So as unbelievable as it may seem, your crossdressing being revealed to the bullies would just be a drop in the bucket of things to bully about. Have you thought that maybe, just maybe the kids at the school may think it is cool? Wild shot, but ya never know. (Oh and even after it was identified that one of the reasons why I got bullied was due to my mother, she didn't stop, why should she? She had every right to wear what she wanted....and I defended that right even when I was that young)

Now my stance on the closet deal is only my opinion, and my wish. I am not trying to force anyone to get out, and I don't think you are "sackless" (can we use a more polite term like spineless please?), but I do think that you as am I are ruled by fear.

Stephenie S

08-06-2011, 10:44 AM

Nicely said, Pythos.

I too wish we could ovoid using a word like "sackless"

S

Ediosa

08-06-2011, 10:47 AM

Everybody knows in this forum that I am not in the closet and if you don't know, well then you need to catch up...LOL!!!

I personally believe with and agree with the original poster. It takes a whole lot of guts to stay in the closet and the fact that life is good in the closet is all that matters. As long as they are happy, then that is also all that matters. For some, happiness is the reason we do what we do and to complicate that, why should we. I personally find happiness being with friends outside, enjoying myself while dressed and that makes me happy. So, if your happy being in the closet, then good for you and congrats having a SO who accepts you and allows you to be who you want to be at home. Plus, good on you for not be self-centered to threaten all that you have in your life.

For those who push others to be out, then shame on you. If I recall and remember the first time and reasons why I was in the closet prior to getting out, they were the same reasons as the OP. Don't push anyone, don't force anyone, don't ridicule anyone, because Karma is a big betch and that ridicule will come back to you 10 fold. Not only that, you have to look at how you are presenting our community. If you go out in very short mini-skirt wearing high hooker heels and being very obnoxious, even I will ridicule you because you are making us look like crap. I would rather you try to look your best and feminine, then look trashy as some girls do. Those trashy girls or CDs that are out of the closet are the worst and need to be put back in the closet. Just my 2 cents.

OP, good on you for what you have stated. Keep being strong. :)

Pythos

08-06-2011, 10:51 AM

All of these jobs have strict grooming and uniform policies for both their male an female employees. They dictate such things as style and length of socks permitted, length of hair, types and limits on jewelry worn, visability of tattoos, etc... Are these policies illegal?

Illeagal? No.

Complete and total BS....yes. Uniform I can see. Hair lenth, sock length, tatoos, for a civilian ageny no. Usually in the hazardous situations these individuals are helmeted, so hair length should not matter. Sock length? That is a new one. Tatoos do not in any way affect how the person is free to move. Now I can see gang tatoos being banned, but tatoos in general? No.

As far as slow backup based on one's percieved sexual orientation (cause you know if a man crossdresses he must be gay, which is what this macho BS is really based on), I think would raise a big stink, and if the officer, or firefighter, died along with civilians, you can be the slow to respond individuals would lose their jobs.

Shelly Preston

08-06-2011, 10:56 AM

It is a product of fear. As much as you may like that closet, you most likely would never have even thought of staying in it had it not been for the fear factor.

Some individuals do fear what it will do to their lifestyle. There have been a few high profile examples of this.

If every Gay individual wanted to stay in the closet do you think they would have gotten anywhere?

Some have managed to get to high postions in political life before being outed

I have said it before, and I will again. Hiding helps no one in the long term. All that it does is perpetuate the BS.

A lack of education pepetuates the BS not being in the closet

I applaud everyone who can do something to help make the wider community aware of who we are, and not just what they read in most newspapers

docrobbysherry

08-06-2011, 11:09 AM

1. I don't wish to look like a "man in a dress" or dress like the average woman my age. I HATE BLENDING! I want to look more like real women, but the WOMEN IN MY DREAMS! :D

2. I don't simply "thro on" a few girlie items. I plan each dressing session for days or weeks! Each session takes 3 or more hours to prep for. I couldn't do this very often and it wouldn't be SPECIAL if I did!:straightface:

3. When I dress, I dress FOR ME ALONE! I don't EVER HAVE TO CONSIDER WHAT ANYONE ELSE THINKS! That means never having to compromise my look!:devil:

4. When I DO go out dressed with other girls, out of consideration I dress vanilla to BLEND! And, I ALWAYS feel like I'm a spy in a disguise! Because THAT'S NOT WHO I AM! I'm Sherry! I'm: ridiculous, sublime, sexy, wild, crazy, famous, beautiful, semi-nude, classic, classy, classless, ANYTHING but vanilla!:eek:

So, I admit I'm a COWARD! That I'm afraid! Afraid of MYSELF and afraid CDing may become ordinary, common, normal, something other than the VERY SPECIAL activity it is for me now!:sad:

And, if THAT'S what dressing is for u well then, I'm sorry! All I can say is, "Good for u"!:thumbsup:

Anne2345

08-06-2011, 12:03 PM

I refuse to believe it when people say they love their closet.

I have read similar posts from you in the past expressing your belief. I have much respect for you, and how you present yourself and your ideas on this forum, but I have yet to fully grasp or understand what your belief is rooted in. Why is it so difficult to believe that one can love one's closet? I love and enjoy many different things in life. I do not share everything I love and enjoy with others. Some things I do share, other things I do not. But just because I do not share certain things, does not mean that I cannot love whatever it is. Do you share everything you love and enjoy with others? Or do you have a few things that you love doing just by yourself, or with a very small, select group of people? If so, do you love it any less because you are not sharing what may otherwise be a very personal, yet quite satisfying and enjoyable activity?

To the people who do want to go out but are too fearful of the perceived consequences to do so, I and others here try to show that most of the fears that stop them are irrational.

I have no doubt some fears are irrational. Some fear the outside world, and some within the outside world fear us. Obviously, fear is not limited only to the world of the transgendered. You name an issue or a topic, and somebody out there fears it. But not every fear is irrational. Some fear is legitimate, and based in reality. The reality upon which my fear, regardless of the issue, may not be someone else's reality.

Certainly, however, I acknowledge that I do suffer from certain irrational fears. One such irrational fear I have is shopping for women's clothes and makeup myself in stores. I have recently worked hard to overcome this fear, based upon the positive support and encouragement I have received here. Had a member simply told me that I lack "guts" and a "sack" because I am too fearful of shopping, I doubt that I would have even made the attempt, much less actually went through with it like I have. Other fears that I have, such as fears relating to my employment and my wife's employment are anything but irrational.

There is a place for those who act as advocates (well there had better be or I have wasted my life) but those of us who take on such a role have no right to look down on those for whom we claim to be acting as advocates.

Very well stated, Riana! And know that your advocacy is very much appreciated!

There are times that I wish I had never ventured out of the closet. My wife has now lost at least two friends that she attributes to me. In addition she tells me that she is reluctant to make new friends because of what I am. The rational part of me knows that she is using me as an excuse, but still, I sometimes wish that I hadn't given her the excuse.

For about a year I was a manager at my company - right up until the wrong person found out about me and made it a point to tell everyone to include our director. Less than a month later I was told that they needed my skills more as an engineer than as a manager, and I was pretty much given the choice - go back to being an engineer or go unemployed. The good news is that I hated being a manager anyway, but still . . .
My (almost) eight year old daughter knows about me. So far it hasn't complicated her life, but who knows what will happen later.

There are MANY days when I wish I had kept my mouth shut, kept my head down, and lived a "normal" life. Lived a life where I hadn't complicated my career, hadn't made my wife's life harder, and didn't risk serious complications to my daughters social life. If your instincts tell you that you should stay in the closet, then do what your guts and your heart tell you to do, and to hell with what anyone else thinks. In the end it is you and your family that make these choices and that live with the consequences.

For Kimberly, unfortunately, coming out has not worked so well for her. It would not work so well for me, either. No one here can judge another's circumstances without first really knowing what those circumstances are. There are many success stories here, but there are also stories of failure, tragedy, and/or regret. I want to be as much of a success story as I may be, but without taking unnecessary or irresponsible risks, thereby dramatically increasing my chances of becoming just another story of tragedy. I simply have too much on the line, and I refuse to risk it. But even beyond that, I cannot state this enough - I simply have no desire to come out! I love my closet! Thank you, Kimberly, for sharing your story and thoughts on this. Relating such a story to others certainly takes coourage in and of itself, and there is much to be learned when considering such stories, along with their more positive counter-stories.

We are individuals brought together because of crossdressing

It is an individual choice made after receiving as much information as we can give them.

We are not hear to judge anyone we are hear to support them in anyway we can.

Hear hear!!!!

You don't need guts to go out.... You need the want or desire to go out.

EXACTLY!!!! Some of us have the desire, some of us do not!

I too wish we could ovoid using a word like "sackless"

Not my word. If you will note in the OP, the member I quoted stated that I lack "guts," and that those like me do not have a "sack." Obviously, such terms are offensive. At least, in the context in which the words were utilized, I found the words offensive. All I have done here is express my opinion, quoted the member, and put the issue out here for discussion and debate. :) But I am otherwise with you on this.

DanielleLee

08-06-2011, 12:04 PM

Anne, your post was very well thought out and well written. Thank you. I think the majority of CDers on this forum agree with you. All of our situations vary from one CDer to the next and each of us has the right to "present" as much or as little as we want. I'm suprised I haven't seen any negative responses yet. (The militants may still be asleep after a long night of public appearances at MAC, ULTA, VS...)

For anyone on this forum to be called out another as "gutless" or "lacking sack".... is to be perfectly honest IMO a forum violation. (Oh wait... as long as it's a collective insult... it's just an opinion and allowable)

To those of you who are out. Congratulations. I truly mean it. I respect you all. Please however, take a step back with your "Raise Awareness" arguments.

I (and I'm sure many others) don't expect anything from society in regards to the acceptance of mainstream crossdressing. I personally don't care if it's accepted by society or not. If I choose to crossdress... that's my decision. If I choose to remain "closeted" if I crossdress... that's also my decision. Stop badgering others, because you feel that CDers need to collectively unite and those that don't are "less" of a crossdresser or crossdressers that don't need support, such as on this forum, from time to time.

Because here's the thing... if you're staring at your CPU, laptop or smart phone reading this AND and you're wearing panties... you're a crossdresser. Here's your sign...

DL

Dawn cd

08-06-2011, 12:08 PM

Pythos asks, "If every gay individual wanted to stay in the closet do you think they would have gotten anywhere?" The logic of her question doesn't apply to Anne, who isn't talking about "every" crossdresser, but merely about "some" cds. There will always be militants among gays, cds, African Americans and other repressed people. Good for them! But to conclude that every single member of the group is required to be militant is unreasonable and inhuman.

Pythos also repeats her belief that the root cause of closet-living is fear. Because she doesn't explore that charge, she leaves the impression that she's talking about personal fear, ie, cowardice. But what about fear for one's family, spouse and children, work colleagues, finances, professional status, and one's effectiveness in many other fields other than crossdressing? People carry responsibilities that often limit their freedom. This is not cowardice. It often amounts to courage.

Karren H

08-06-2011, 12:18 PM

Imho Everyone is in some sort of closet... Real or of their own making. Some big and some small...

Sheren Kelly

08-06-2011, 03:29 PM

Have you considered that these dress codes may be illegal? If women are allowed to wear earrings and long hair, then the same must be allowed for men otherwise it is considered discrimination.

Maybe there is a claim that a dress code is illegal, but lets face reality, if you expect to succeed professionally, you have to meet certain standards. I wear a tie to work not because it is such a great accessory, but to not do so sends a message that you refuse to meet minimal standards. I have known people in my line who have transitioned in the work place, but it didn't help their advancement. There is validity to the phrase "dress for success".

Some of us have commitments to family etc. that cause us to prioritize out lives. To those who subordinate their TG expression to support their family and meet their commitments, I say BRAVO! To me, that is truly a selfless act. To those who have decided to live openly or have transitioned, I am amazed at your courage. But please don't judge others by the decisions they make, cerainly not before understanding their motivation and circmstances.

In the past few months I have noticed an unpleasant undertone on these boards where lines are being drawn between us. There is no Varsity here, we are all just people trying to find peace in our lives. Lets be respectful to all.

Duana

08-06-2011, 05:22 PM

Sorry I'm late to the crucification. I just saw this thread.

I've made my points in the other thread so I'll just say a few things here:

1. I NEVER personally attacked anyone; meaning I NEVER said Anne, didn't have guts or lacked "sack". Those were general comments that she took personally because of her closeted situation.

2. I NEVER said or forced or pushed anyone to come out of the closet. In fact, I told Anne to stay in the closet. But I correctly pointed out that the more of us which go out, the better our collective position in society will be.

3. I admitted we ALL have crossdressing fears, including myself.

4. Finally, I will never believe that anyone who spends hours getting dressed is fulfilled, never having left the home. I know some of you say you are, but then, in direct contradiction, Anne said she'd love to go out with shaved legs and toenails. How do you reconcile those remarks? There are WAY too many ecstatic "first time out" posts here for me to believe its not the ultimate goal.

In retrospect, I am sorry for using inflammatory language because I'm being made the insensitive a$$hole now. I am not sorry for my beliefs but it doesn't mean I don't understand the fears of the closeted.

Ok, I'm done with this thread.

Peace.

NicoleScott

08-06-2011, 06:12 PM

I have been out some, but I'm mostly a home alone dresser. Other than my wife knowing, I'm in the closet.
It's great that some cd's can transform and look authentically female, wearing activity-appropriate and currently-stylish cothes, shoes, hair, and makeup. Not me. I guess I could, but I don't really want to. This cd prefers the over-the-top style. I dress for the mirror. I like what I see, but I wouldn't if I had to tone it down. I love short skirts, very high heels, heavy makeup, long eyelashes, dark red lips and painted nails to match. This is how I dress.
See me in the grocery store and you'd be screaming "My God, STAY HOME !! - you're not helping crossdressers' public image!"
So I'll stay in the closet. You're welcome.

Tina B.

08-06-2011, 06:42 PM

Sorry, you can all say and think what you want, but for me, Yes I'm in the closet, and it's by choice. I've tried going out and I'm just not comfortable out and about as a female. I don't like it, I don't want to do it, and yes I can spend hours getting myself fixed up, but it's just for me. If the rest of you want to go out and March for equality that's nice, I'll be on the side lines cheering you on, but no I won't join you. I don't owe it to you or anyone else, to do it. But I know what it would do to my wife, and her reputation among her friends (most over 60) and I'm not sure what it would do with my religious son and daughter in law, and if I would still be allowed to see my grandkids. Sure if it was a prefect world I would love to venture out, but I will hold off until that predict world is found. It's easy to stand around and tell someone else they have nothing to lose, as long as it's someone elses nothing, and not your own. Janis Joplin sang, freedom is having nothing left to lose, well I feel I have to much to lose to be that free.
Tina B.

kristinacd55

08-06-2011, 06:44 PM

Gutless, ****less....to each their own. Noone here knows what anyone else is going through except themselves. To label someone else as gutless when you don't know their situation? It's.........gutless :) just my :2c:

ReineD

08-06-2011, 06:59 PM

Sorry I'm late to the crucification. I just saw this thread.

Duana, I'm just seeing this now as well, and I've also responded to you in the other thread, but I want to add something here.

The most successful posters are the ones who can get their own points across while also acknowledging other people's positions. If they can do this, they don't put other people's backs up against the wall and the listener may well consider what is said with a more open mind. But it does take a certain amount of empathy to do this. People have to be able to imagine themselves in other people's shoes, or at least acknowledge that human psychology is infinitely more complex and varied than their own personal experience and motives. This is hard to do for most of us, it certainly is for me, since we really only do fully understand our own motives, our own way of looking at things.

Your point about not believing that any person who gets fully dressed is not fulfilled by staying home - I think there is something you aren't considering. My SO was in this spot for several years. He is single, he doesn't have a wife or kids holding him back, he has lots of freedom with his employment. Yet, he still had to overcome certain barriers before being ready to go out. I don't think he would have qualified it as "fear". He just wasn't ready. Simple as that. There were internal questions he needed answering for himself. He didn't beat himself up over it, he didn't resent not going out since it was his choice to stay in. He was happy with the CDing as it was and she did dress fully. And when she did start going out using baby steps, she gave herself lots of leeway including permission to leave the premises if she felt uncomfortable. She knew she would continue to grow or change as needed. Or not. In other words, he gave herself permission to just go with the flow. His other consideration was to strike a balance. This was probably his biggest priority and it still is.

Not everyone has the same need to be seen for a multitude of reasons. Fear might be a valid reason for some of the members here, especially the ones who say they do resent staying closeted. But, fear is not the reason for those who are happy in their male lives and who do not wish to change it, or the balance in their lives, and especially if they feel they know and understand their own environments. It's a question of priorities, not fear.

Anne. Rianna just told me in another thread, where I got upset at some people for only being able to see their own viewpoints, that I mustn't get upset by this. It will happen, it is human nature, and I shouldn't let it get to me. I guess you needed to start this thread to get it all off your chest, but leaving a pointed remark in the other thread as you did would have been enough, IMO. :)

Kaitlyn26

08-06-2011, 07:03 PM

For some of us, our employers have very strict dress code policies which do not allow any variation from the normal male presentation, this can include having no long hair, nail polish, ear rings etc. In other words you must appear as a "100% guy" :2c:

My job allows either gender to wear a skirt. I thought it was awesome and am sad no one really takes advantage of presenting as a man while wearing a skirt. I've been at jobs like that though. I did not enjoy them.

Gaby2

08-06-2011, 07:30 PM

...Oddly enough, I also just happen to love myself, accept myself, and thrive within the life I have created for myself. What more can I ask for? ...
Hi Anne.

This wonderful statement attracted my attention most.
For me, it simply outshines the subsequent (and useful) debate about consideration, respect and support from other Crossdressers.

I think that Crossdressing allows us all to see ourselves as the "beautiful, caring and loving" people we strive to be.

:love:Gaby

Pythos

08-06-2011, 08:11 PM

2. I NEVER said or forced or pushed anyone to come out of the closet. In fact, I told Anne to stay in the closet. But I correctly pointed out that the more of us which go out, the better our collective position in society will be.

THIS is at the very heart of my position. This one line.

Barbara Dugan

08-06-2011, 10:00 PM

I am Gutless as a guy...why I should be different as a girl.

LitaKelley

08-06-2011, 10:23 PM

The way I see it, CD'ers do not need to be out.. it is a personal CHOICE and only the individual can decide if being out is right for them, or even necessary. Now, TS on the other hand, NEED to be out.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that ANY CD'er needs to be out of the closet, unless they WANT TO... Now, TS on the other hand, NEED to be... Certainly many TS are afraid and have many real and valid concerns, but it is an actual and real NEED that causes the person real pain and suffering... the NEED to be out and the complications associated with achieving that, and only after taking various steps at that individuals own pace do they eventually come out and finally travel the road towards inner peace and comfort.

I haven't read all the responses, nor the other thread(s).. so, not sure what was said and not said, etc, etc...
But, my take on it is this... there are SOME that should NOT EVER come out of the closet... such as the extreme fetishist, the flamboyant exhibitionist, the "sissy" and so on.. you get my drift here... Sure it's ok for these certain "types" of CD to be out in like a club reserved for this sort of "style" etc, but not in say like the supermarket or ball park, lol... Personally, I think certain "kinds" of CD make things more difficult for Transsexual and those with gender identity disorders... There's absolutely NO REASON certain types of CD'ers should be OUT in public....other than in safe controlled environments reserved for that sort of thing... away from mainstream eyes

Melody Moore

08-06-2011, 10:41 PM

Here is the question though.

Would you ever have gone into "the closet" or felt compelled to hide were it not for ignorance, bigotry, and in many ways stupidity?

...

It is a product of fear. As much as you may like that closet, you most likely would never have even thought of staying in it had it not been for the fear factor.
Nothing else apart from that needs to be said really, because I am the first to admit that while I was
in the closet I was living in fear still & being honest with myself there is nothing at all courageous in that. :eek:

So there was once a time that I might have joined the chorus here as well, but I would know that I was
singing this same tune to justify the pitiful existence I once had hiding in the closet. But it's all good now ;)
because I know now that it isn't me hiding away from the world & for the first time ever I feel really alive!
I am not here to judge anyone, I am just sharing how I felt, please take no personal offence & carry on :)

Cheryl T

08-07-2011, 08:08 AM

Making our own choices is what freedom means in the first place.

Absolutely............to each his (or her) own.
What works for one of us may not for another. No one should be made to feel they "must" come out. I needed to...others don't and are happy that way, so do what works for you.

Kaz

08-07-2011, 08:26 AM

I guess this is a subject that is never going to go away! It will lose momentum for a while and then resurface..

There are some people who want the world to fit in with what they believe. They are often called extremists, radicals or fanatics. At the extreme end they are terrorists. Then there are the rest of us... happy getting on with our lives doing what we need to do and accepting the position others take in life. The extremists will exist at either end of any spectrum of activity/interest. There will be the pros and the cons. So we have the CD guerilla movement at one extreme and the 'beat the s**t out of the trannies' at the other.

Such is life...

Melody Moore

08-07-2011, 09:47 AM

There has always been a huge rift that has existed between the cross-dressing community & the transsexual
community. And there are many transsexuals that are keen to distance themselves from CDers who are driven
by transvestic fetishism. Transsexuals as a whole see themselves more like intersex people do - born with a
condition cause by a biological birth defect. Personally I am not so close minded because I understand that
there are a lot of trangendered folk who are evolving from crossdressers because they are finding out they are TS.

I would like to share with you a true story about something that is going on in my real world right now which
is also about showing respect for other transgender members of the community, the decisions they make & also
their personal opinion which has often become a bone of contention between CDing & transsexual communities.

Just because I am a transsexual female, this does not mean that I side with the transsexual community on everything.
Yesterday at my local TG support group meeting I tackled one of the group's organisers about their segregation of
other people of other gender types that fall under the 'transgender umbrella'. This organiser told me about month that
if one of the new members of our group didn't start to make an effort in transition, then she was going to kick this new
TG person out of our group, which I felt was very wrong because I can see how this new person NEEDS our support!

Also I questioned the organiser over a month ago about what the true identity of our support group is because I was
going to send in a funding application that had been sent to me by a state government funded LGBT groups because
they had some cash available for us for any projects that we could organise for our transgender support group. But it
was here I found many holes in a very leaky boat that we were all relying upon. So something needs to be done & fast!

And the main reason is that we have no committee or infrastructure & group identity to support our SUPPORT GROUP!!!

Anyway my group's organiser told me that we are a TRANSGENDER SUPPORT GROUP, but the irony is that this same
person is also telling me that it is exclusively for transsexuals & was wanting to kick this new TG person out! And this
same person also tried to mention that the group was exclusively for transsexuals yesterday, but then I asked her at
the meeting with everyone else present the straight up question about 'Why are we a transgender support group,
instead of a transsexual support group?'. Naturally this started a very fiery debate between us, very similar to what
we see on this forum, but it was me standing up for the rest of the TG community, including the cross-dressers! :eek:

So yesterday I challenged the group's leadership on these issues in a debate where everyone else in that
group agreed with the argument I presented & fully supported the new proposals for the group that I put
on the table. And while this might come as a surprise to some here, I am 100% sure that I got the respect
of the group because I do actually listen to others & it was their concerns that I also raised yesterday ;)

So now we are in the process of organising a new mission statement as our group's new focus & agenda.
We are also in the process of establishing a proper committee, infrastructure & group identity so we can
start organising more social events so the entire transgender community here can get together, learn
about each other & network together. I also see huge benefits for our group through organising fund
raising events to raise money for our group in conjunction with the main LGBT community here. I am
also on that committee for that so I have tabled some of my suggestions to them & have their full
support already. AndNot only that I have the support of the management of my local gender clinic ;)

So we need all of this sorted out to run this group democratically & effectively & put & end to many ongoing
disputes & problems that have been plaguing our local transgender support group for a very long time.

The best part about yesterday's TG meeting was there was a local transgender matriarch also showed up unexpectedly
while I was waiting for the group's organiser (who was running late as usual) to arrive & unlock the building. It was the
first time I ever met this person, however while we waited we chatted for a bit, I told her before the meeting about
some of the issues I was going to be bringing up & put forward a new proposal about how we could tackle these issues.
I got the biggest surprise when she turned around & told me that I am now doing what she tried to do here in this city
15 years before I did & that she fully supported my proposal. So she was a fantastic ally to have on my side yesterday. ;)

So what is happening now, is our group will finally become a true TRANSGENDER SOCIAL SUPPORT GROUP with a focus on
opening up our group more on a social level to allow other transgender members to join in & network with others. But at the
same time our main objective is to support those transsexuals in the group who need as much help as possible & usually this
is the transsexuals who have more serious issues of Gender Identity Disorder & a physical transformation to contend with.

Collectively as a transgender group we have a stronger voice & presence in the local
community if we do unite to tackle any political issues, transphobia & bigotry as a group.

My personal agendas here is to not exclude anyone within the transgender spectrum who might be struggling trying to find
out where they fit in. And my motivation is because I was in that same place in the closet before I learnt to understand myself
better & now exactly where I fit in this world - since coming out of the closet I have more true friends than ever before!

But it has served me well to listen to others & learn all I can & appreciate their struggle - this is why I am here on this forum.

Crysten

08-07-2011, 10:22 AM

Well I'd have to say that most of these "militant" out-ists probably live in or near a big city, probably don't have close famlies, and have few outside responsibilities they need to meet. Location, family (especially kids), jobs, bills, etc etc etc. Hey -- how about that army ranger who's currently serving in Afghanistan.....who happens to be a cross dresser in his spare time? YEAH I bet he has no "sack" or "guts" either, does he. Your argument is invalid.

NicoleScott

08-07-2011, 10:23 AM

I haven't read all the responses, nor the other thread(s).. so, not sure what was said and not said, etc, etc...
But, my take on it is this... there are SOME that should NOT EVER come out of the closet... such as the extreme fetishist, the flamboyant exhibitionist, the "sissy" and so on.. you get my drift here... Sure it's ok for these certain "types" of CD to be out in like a club reserved for this sort of "style" etc, but not in say like the supermarket or ball park, lol... Personally, I think certain "kinds" of CD make things more difficult for Transsexual and those with gender identity disorders... There's absolutely NO REASON certain types of CD'ers should be OUT in public....other than in safe controlled environments reserved for that sort of thing... away from mainstream eyes

LitaKelley, I appreciate your candor even if I don't agree with your position. It seems you're saying that cd's shouldn't go out if they don't want to, but if they do want to they must meet certain standards, as determined by...???...you? So you see me out in public and you think my style is too flamboyant. You don't know if I'm a cd (should stay home) or a TS (must be out in public).
It seems that you want me to be in the public's eye if my presence supports your cause (acceptance), but you want me to stay away if my presence hurts your cause.
I'm sure many people in the general public would like to have all the TS folks stay out of the public and go only to special clubs where they are accepted. You want the same for crossdressers whose style you don't like.
Can't have it both ways.

If you're going to engage in the conversation, you should have the courtesy to read all the posts. If you can spare the time, read my post (# 45). I guess I was referring to you.

Denise69

08-07-2011, 11:08 AM

Zoe Preston

08-07-2011, 04:58 PM

Anne, As a (mainly) closetted crossdresser I'd love add a response supporting the opinions you expressed but I'm afraid I lack the guts to do so :straightface:

Zoe

LitaKelley

08-07-2011, 05:05 PM

LitaKelley, I appreciate your candor even if I don't agree with your position. It seems you're saying that cd's shouldn't go out if they don't want to, but if they do want to they must meet certain standards, as determined by...???...you? So you see me out in public and you think my style is too flamboyant. You don't know if I'm a cd (should stay home) or a TS (must be out in public).
It seems that you want me to be in the public's eye if my presence supports your cause (acceptance), but you want me to stay away if my presence hurts your cause.
I'm sure many people in the general public would like to have all the TS folks stay out of the public and go only to special clubs where they are accepted. You want the same for crossdressers whose style you don't like.
Can't have it both ways.

If you're going to engage in the conversation, you should have the courtesy to read all the posts. If you can spare the time, read my post (# 45). I guess I was referring to you.

Next time, read what I actually said instead of conjuring up conjecture on what you think I said, which are two different things.. My post is exactly what it is and not up for debate on what you think it means... I have a real disdain for people like you, those whom alway insist on insinuation, assumption and conjuring up imaginative speculations based upon their own paranoia instead of based upon what was actually said.

LilSissyStevie

08-07-2011, 06:04 PM

See me in the grocery store and you'd be screaming "My God, STAY HOME !! - you're not helping crossdressers' public image!"
So I'll stay in the closet. You're welcome.

Actually, to the extent that someone passes or blends in, they do exactly nothing (zero) for the image of crossdressers. They are just wearing their closet instead of living in it. The real hero(ine)s are the ones out and about who are obviously CDing: the men in skirts, the fetishists, sissys, the man wearing lingerie on a plane, drag queens, etc. The public will never accept crossdressing until it is in their face enough that they throw up their hands in defeat. That's the way it's been for every minority. Don't worry, it won't be me. I don't care if CDs are accepted or not. But I have to laugh when people talk about how brave they are for going out but they still don't want anyone to know they are a genetic male wearing women's clothing. If they are serious they should be flamboyant or at least wear a sign saying "I'm a Crossdresser and I'm in your face."
:D

Katesback

08-07-2011, 08:07 PM

Samantha B L

08-07-2011, 08:26 PM

I am out of the closet. I think it is better to be out of the closet. It is in a way a lot more fun and adventurous to be out of the closet. But sometimes people are forced to be in the closet because there are people close around them in their homes and on their jobs and in their towns who would be total nazis about it it they found out,pardon the expression. Sometimes telling your secrets about LGBT stuff can really bring down a lot of wrath and it can be a real invitation to a hanging! I am out of the closet but I can respect that some people have to stay in the closet for awhile and they can't help it! But if a person can find a way and if it is possible,being out of the closet can at times be more fun and less frightening than being in the closet.

Anne2345

08-07-2011, 08:36 PM

I have NEVER met a CD that did not want to be out of the closet. They dream about it all the time. They dream about a lot of things I will not mention in this post.

What is sad is that they always overlook the fact that they are not the first to come out. Countless TS girls have had to come out and they survived. I guess CDs ignore history or at least dont learn from it.

As to who you have met, you have not met me. I do not know how many times I have to repeat this, but I have no desire to leave my closet. None. But I do dream about things. I dream of things such as winning the lottery, going on vacation, the weekend, having free time to do what I want to do, travelling to far off, exotic locations, etc. Absent from my dreams, and my dreams are many, is a desire to leave my closet.

You state that it is sad those such as I "overlook the fact that [we] are not the first to come out." If indeed you do feel sad about this, please do not feel sad for me! Instead, feel happy that I enjoy what I do, in the manner I choose to do it! Such happiness should be celebrated! I, for one, celebrate it!

ReineD

08-07-2011, 09:03 PM

I have NEVER met a CD that did not want to be out of the closet. They dream about it all the time. They dream about a lot of things I will not mention in this post.

LOL. You mean dreaming about having sex with men? :eek: *shock*

But seriously, just think for a moment: how would you have met the thousands of CDs who are happy with their circumstances, if they are dressing at home? :facepalm:

So, since you haven't met them, you'll need to take their word for it here.

suchacutie

08-07-2011, 09:17 PM

"CD's ignor history or at least don't learn from it" ?????

I have to admit, I'm at a loss for words after reading that statement. How we make such blanket statements in such a diverse community?

tina

Melody Moore

08-07-2011, 09:48 PM

Wow, some people really don't have a clue. "No guts or sack" As a former military combat veteran, like many others here, I also take offense to this. Havving charged into a firefight to protect ones fellows I believe takes both. As a Vet I fought to protect your right to express yourself, don't force your beliefs upon me! I am happy in my closet, it's a big one!

I too am a former grunt and nothing I ever did in the Army took as much courage or 'guts' as coming out. I also have
a couple of mates, one is a decorated ex-Vietnam veteran (Machinegunner in the battle of Long Tan) & also a former
SASR (Special Air Services Regiment) with Gulf war experience who both really respect me & both admitted to me that
they wouldn't have the courage to do what I am doing now because of fears of rejection by other family members. So
even the toughest of guys around don't have the ballz it takes to come out & be so honest when you are trangendered
or transsexual.

So the next time you think about flexing you military muscle around here just remember soldier - you are NOT alone here!

ReineD

08-07-2011, 10:28 PM

Melody, have you ever considered that when someone says he doesn't have the ballz to do something, he may also mean that he doesn't want to? And for reasons that you can't even think of, since you do not live in his shoes?

Good Lord, it's an expression I've used often and when I see someone bungee jumping for example, I also say that I don't have the cahoots (can't use ballz) to do it. But at the same time, it is something that doesn't appeal to me in the least. Am I not bungee jumping because I'm afraid? NO! I'm not bungee jumping because I can't find anything the least bit redeeming about the activity.

It takes all kinds in this world, ya know?

Why is it so hard for some of the members here who are out, to believe that those who don't want to be out stay in for reasons other than fear?

It is maddening when someone shares how they feel and someone else says they are BSing. How would all of you who are doing this feel if you were called liars?

This conversation is becoming circular.

Melody Moore

08-07-2011, 10:37 PM

Reine, I see your point, but have you ever stopped to consider that some of my friends might have
looked at this from where I am at & have developed such a much better appreciation of such things?
And I will never accept that people don't come out of the closet because they are not ruled by the fear!
Talk to any pyschologist & I am sure that most will agree with me. But I am not arguing about what is right
or wrong here - because people need to do what they believe is best for them. My choice is not to be ruled
by this type of fear anymore. Just look at the thread about the regrets of those who have come out (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?157878-Do-you-not-regret-coming-out-of-the-closet). I think
the feedback there more than endorses my point of view about this.

So yes, this conversation is becoming circular.

ReineD

08-07-2011, 11:46 PM

Melody, point taken about your friends as well. But the thing is, you don't know everybody! To insist that others are lying when they don't have the same degree of gender dysphoria is the height of arrogance, I think. No offense intended.

Doesn't this make sense to you in the least? How would you like to be called a liar, being told that you are not TS but in fact are a fetish CDer at the height of a pink fog, by someone who has no idea what it's like to experience GID? You'd be very angry about this.

As to psychologists, even they can develop tunnel vision. I've seen this with a friend who was a Court psychologist in child abuse cases. He saw child abuse everywhere after a while. Psychologists are human too. And don't forget, it is the TGs with severe GID who do seek the help, and not the CDers who find balance and who also enjoy being guys. The professionals only see GID cases.

docrobbysherry

08-08-2011, 12:06 AM

Maybe it's a dream for u and your friends, Kate, but it's more of a nitemare for me! Come meet me in the bar at the SCC and you'll see why! I'll be dressed as the old granny! So I can "blend" and fit in with the other girls there. Sigh!

But, all the while, Sherry will be telling me to let her; young, sexy, ****ty exhibitionist self out of the suitcase upstairs! And, I KNOW I'm not alone in this! In my nearly 4 years here, I've gotten a NUMBER of sympathetic posts and PMs from like minded CDs!

I have NEVER met a CD that did not want to be out of the closet. They dream about it all the time. They dream about a lot of things I will not mention in this post.

What is sad is that they always overlook the fact that they are not the first to come out. Countless TS girls have had to come out and they survived. I guess CDs ignore history or at least dont learn from it.

eluuzion

08-08-2011, 01:02 AM

Why is it so hard for some of the members here who are out, to believe that those who don't want to be out stay in for reasons other than fear?

It is maddening when someone shares how they feel and someone else says they are BSing. How would all of you who are doing this feel if you were called liars?

hiya RD,

I believe I can provide an explanation for you. The technique is called "framing". Reducing the content of the "question" and decision options down to a binary set of carefully manipulated choices that are assumed to represent the only two options. Advertising media and manipulators understand this strategy very well. It is readily observed on forums too. (But probably not a conscious process).

You are either _____, or you are _____.
You simply address (present) the "question" and decision options within a binary context assumption. (There are only two options.)
This of course is rarely, if ever true. There are typically many options in every issue and decision making process.

By "framing" a debate you can essential force the discussion to operate with the assumption that there are only two choices..."You are either out and "free", or you are "hiding" (the word "hiding" implies a motivation by fear).

This "framing" approach creates an unequal basis in the discussion...by forcing those who are not "out" into a position of "defending".

Rather than attempt to explain this further (which typically proves to be a waste of time), I am providing a link to an article that clearly explains "framing" and the other factors influencing decision making.
http://www.uxmatters.com/mt/archives/2011/03/how-anchoring-ordering-framing-and-loss-aversion-affect-decision-making.php

just my thoughts...

:love:

NicoleScott

08-08-2011, 12:51 PM

Next time, read what I actually said instead of conjuring up conjecture on what you think I said, which are two different things.. My post is exactly what it is and not up for debate on what you think it means... I have a real disdain for people like you, those whom alway insist on insinuation, assumption and conjuring up imaginative speculations based upon their own paranoia instead of based upon what was actually said.

I read your post many times, and still see hipocracy. You want "certain types" of CD's to remain out of the public's eye to make it easier for TS and those with GID to gain acceptance (hmmm - no mention of acceptance of CD's) . Instead of your verbose bashing, just tell me where I misread your post. Or are you just a TS looking down your nose at us mere CD's?

carhill2mn

08-08-2011, 01:03 PM

Kaitlyn Michele

08-08-2011, 01:13 PM

framing is a good example of what's going on in all these competing threads. Add to the mix the deeply felt emotional nature of all kinds of tgism and we have this whole back and forth..

nobody likes being told they are wimps....

the vast majority of this group is very live and let live and i bet lots of people are totally happy dressing in their spare time, and even just putting on panties or a skirt and hanging out here chatting...how anyone can have an issue with that is beyond me...

if you like going out, and want to encourage people to join you, attacking people is a pretty bizarre way to do it...

suzy1

08-08-2011, 01:39 PM

How sad that a wonderful site like this can have among its members a few that can not even try to understand members like Anne and me.
I have held back and just read the replies as they have been posted before replying my self.
I think the best way to react Anne is to just let it go and go on enjoying your closet as I do.
The small minority that can not, or will not except us [especially the insulting ones] are just not worth bothering with.

SUZY

Jocelyn Quivers

08-08-2011, 01:40 PM

Have you considered that these dress codes may be illegal? If women are allowed to wear earrings and long hair, then the same must be allowed for men otherwise it is considered discrimination.

I choose on my own free will to work for my employer. I guess I look at employment in a different manner. My employer gives me the means to pay my bills, live a comfortable life etc. I as the employee do not have the right to tell my employer how I should be allowed to dress. I as the applicant to my employer knew full well the dress code for my employer when I applied for that job, and decided to still seek employment. I could slip suggestions in the employee suggestion box if I like, but in the end, If I don't like or agree with my employers dress code, I will just resign and find employer that does allow me to dress in whatever manner I want.:2c:

dawnmarrie1961

08-08-2011, 02:27 PM

Anne,
Good things come to those who wait. Everybody comes out in their own time. It is not for others to dictate the duration of time in which someone else remains in the shadows. That is a personal choice. Their reasons, whatever they may be, are just and valid for them. We must and do respect them.

TGMarla

08-08-2011, 03:26 PM

Blaming closeted crossdressers for both creating and continuing the negative stereotypes we all encounter on a daily basis in society is, of course, ridiculous. That's like blaming continuing racism on those who don't engage in mixed marriages. Of course, if everyone did so, all children would then be of mixed racial heritage, and eventually racism would diminish and disappear. So if one really hates racism, one would actively seek out partners in other races in order to eradicate the problem.

Sure, if every crossdresser threw all caution to the wind and just opted to out themselves to everyone, the rest of the world would have to take notice, and even begrudgingly accept us. But if idealism really cured the wounds of the world, we'd have no problems to deal with anywhere. But prejudice cannot be cured without gradual change. It took a long time with racism (which isn't cured yet), the gay community (which isn't cured yet), and it will take a long time for the transgendered.

So all you militant crossdressers who are out there beating the drum for the rest of our community, thank you for all you do. I'm glad that your circumstances allow for you to do what you do. For most of us, this cannot happen without causing great pain to us and our loved ones. Look at TxKimberly.....she admitted that her wife lost friends over this. My own wife is not supportive of my crossdressing activities. I do not force her to accept it, either, since she knew nothing of it when I married her. She has accepted that I do it, but she wants no part of it. So out of respect for her, I keep it away from her. This means that except for a few limited opportunities, I don't go out much. When I have, I have encountered no adverse experiences. But unless she is out of town, or I have something I wish to accomplish on any given Saturday, I stay home. There are a lot of things I need to get done that do not mix well with crossdressing, so I limit my trans activities to a few hours at a time, and get on with living the rest of my life.

I think this holds true for most of us. Sure, for some of us this is an entire lifestyle. But for the vast majority of us, this is a diversion, a hobby, an activity, or something that we feel that we need to do, but have to give it limits, lest it rule our lives. So it's part-time at best, and scheduling outings are limited to when opportunity allows.

Some of us pass quite well. Some of us look like truck drivers. It is patently wrong for some of us to demand that those of us who absolutely will never be mistaken for women at even the most casual glances to head out into the world and become gender warriors. The same goes for those of us who have extenuating circumstances, friends, neighbors, and loved ones to deal with. Some of us place the whims and wishes of our loved ones before ourselves, and that matters a great deal to me.

Tara D. Rose

08-08-2011, 03:44 PM

[QUOTE=
Some of us pass quite well. Some of us look like truck drivers. .[/QUOTE]

I agree with all that you said in your post. I want us all to live and let live without pushing eachother around. But I just wanted to make a quick joke in your words here, be careful let's not steriotype truckdrivers. What does our typical turck driver look like?
Love & Respect................Tara

ReineD

08-08-2011, 03:56 PM

Some of us pass quite well. Some of us look like truck drivers. It is patently wrong for some of us to demand that those of us who absolutely will never be mistaken for women at even the most casual glances to head out into the world and become gender warriors.

That's a great point!

Also, who is to know the motives of someone who likes to go out in hot pants and painted nails, but otherwise is in guy mode? Is this being "out", or is it just expressing his individuality, similar to going out as goth? I mean, would John Q public see a guy wearing short shorts and pretty sandals think he is a CDer presenting as a woman? Or would he take this individual to be someone who is "gay and proud", or just someone who has odd tastes in clothes?

Kaitlyn26

08-08-2011, 03:57 PM

I agree with all that you said in your post. I want us all to live and let live without pushing eachother around. But I just wanted to make a quick joke in your words here, be careful let's not steriotype truckdrivers. What does our typical turck driver look like?
Love & Respect................Tara

They come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and genders. To state the obvious. :p

Duana

08-08-2011, 04:20 PM

So if you don't pass, you shouldn't go out? Oops! I missed that rule in the CD manual.

Since this thread is based on my original remarks i will say again.

I never said you should be forced out of the closet. I said you are in their because of fear. You may call it a choice and it is but it is a choice made by fear of consequences for you and/or your loved ones. That's fine. I understand it.

So please, stay in your closet if you like it that way. I'm not militant or revolutionary. I'm too busy having fun in the real world to lead a revolution.

TGMarla

08-08-2011, 05:02 PM

Well, yeah Tara....I kinda thought about that when I said it. And some truck drivers are women to begin with.....It's a colloquialism, nothing more. I'm glad you took it in a kind spirit. Duana....I never said that if you don't pass, you shouldn't go out. I said it is wrong to force someone out, especially if they don't pass, or have other very valid reasons for remaining private. And it's wrong to tell such persons, no matter their reasons for staying private, that they are responsible for creating and perpetuating (your very words in a different tense) the situation they lament.

I'm very glad for you that you are having such a wonderful time bringing your crossdressing out into the world. You are living the dream, girlfriend, the life we all wish we could live while enjoying our crossdressing. It's a shame that more of us are not in a situation where that is reasonable and feasable. Duana...there is another thread addressing this new proposed television show where men feel forced to masquerade as women in order to get jobs. Most of the postings there agree that these guys don't look like women. They don't pass. Any dullard (except, of course, the other women on the show) can tell that they're men in drag. So should men who choose to crossdress, yet still stick out like tall corn in a pea field, be told that by staying out of the public eye, that they are creating and reinforcing the negative stereotypes that continue to attach themselves to crossdressing? If they want to go out, then I think we all would encourage them and applaud their bravery. But I think it's perfectly understandable if they decide that they do not want to be mocked, insulted, laughed at, picked on, derided, beat up, sneered at, ostracized, belittled, and prejudiced, that they be given the leeway, especially from the rest of us, to remain private and left alone.

kristinacd55

08-08-2011, 05:12 PM

I agree with all that you said in your post. I want us all to live and let live without pushing eachother around. But I just wanted to make a quick joke in your words here, be careful let's not steriotype truckdrivers. What does our typical turck driver look like?
Love & Respect................Tara

That's funny because one of my best girlfriends happens to be...............ta da! a truck driver!!! And she's ok by me! :)

Anne2345

08-08-2011, 05:13 PM

Upon reflection, I have removed the post I previously directed at Duana within this space. Not because I believe anything I conveyed to her was inaccurate or undeserved, but rather because I now recognize, after calming down, that I allowed myself to be sucked into a no-win, petty argument with a member bent on attack regardless of the facts. In this, I regretfully lowered my otherwise high standard of conduct in my response to this particular member.

Regardless, all who know me here know that I support all members within the transgendered community. It is a beautiful, loving, caring community (for the most part), and one in which I am extremely proud to be a member of.

Last, in Duana's post that follows this post, she has quoted me from the post that I have removed. In the event you read such post, do keep in mind that these quotes are the very statements I have deleted herein.

Thanks!

Anne

Melody Moore

08-08-2011, 05:27 PM

The bottom-line is there is usually some type of fear or reservations that hold closeted cross-dressers back. But there is
no shame in being fearful as it is a perfectly normal emotion. I am the first to admit that it was fear that held me back.

No-one has said (especially me) that you MUST come out of the closet - if that is what you must do in order to be happy,
that is fine. However for me personally, I couldn't be happy living the way that I was previously & I was one of the MANY
people here who found true peace-of-mind, happiness & freedom by coming out. No-one has said that coming out will be
easy, it isn't all rainbows, unicorns & butterfly like some might imagine it is. Coming out is extremely hard for most people.
It takes a hell of a lot of intestinal fortitude, guts or balls to come out, but it takes even more of the same to go to the
next step and fully transition. But having said that we don't go through this to look tough, we come out because we simply
cannot continue to live our lives as anything else other than as our true selves.

I just wonder if the closeted CDing community can ever be learn to be honest enough
to at least admit the truth about why the do really hide themselves away in the closet. :daydreaming:

PS: I am off to see my pyschologist in about an hour or so. So I am going to ask her some questions
about this topic this morning, just to get some feedback from a professional who works in a gender
clinic dealing with these types of issues - so I will be sure to post my feedback later on today ;)

Schatten Lupus

08-08-2011, 06:07 PM

For every valid reason someone steps out of the closet, there is an equally valid reason for someone to not come out of the closet. Coming out as being a part of the transgender spectrum, especially on any part of the MtF side, is to be expected to be met with much, including up to fatal, opposition. Some people have the option to start a new life ina more friendly environment, but for even more coming out means losing everything. Some will be fired, some will lose their homes, their significant other, their kids, friends, some will be beaten and hospitalized, and some will be killed. Some live openly to be themselves, some live in denial in fear of eternal damnation.
It comes down to weighing out your options, and picking the option that is best for your own situation. Yes some members here go out and nothing eventful happens, unfortunately many CD's and TS's never make it back home (if they have a home to go back to that is), but rather they are sent to a funeral home.
A judge is only as human as you or I, and many of them have prejudice against certain groups. And in many places discrimination against gender identity is legal.
Actually if you are perfectly content living in the closest, then anyone who is sane will say that is the best option. If you are happy, and in a position that furthers you from potential harm and danger, then why give it up? If you are unhappy and ready to deal with whatever obstacles you will face, then why not come out?
But it is only up to each individual. For some the consequences of coming out are not worth benefits of coming out.

PetiteTonya

08-08-2011, 06:59 PM

There are times that I wish I had never ventured out of the closet. My wife has now lost at least two friends that she attributes to me. In addition she tells me that she is reluctant to make new friends because of what I am. The rational part of me knows that she is using me as an excuse, but still, I sometimes wish that I hadn't given her the excuse.
For about a year I was a manager at my company - right up until the wrong person found out about me and made it a point to tell everyone to include our director. Less than a month later I was told that they needed my skills more as an engineer than as a manager, and I was pretty much given the choice - go back to being an engineer or go unemployed. The good news is that I hated being a manager anyway, but still . . .
My (almost) eight year old daughter knows about me. So far it hasn't complicated her life, but who knows what will happen later.

There are MANY days when I wish I had kept my mouth shut, kept my head down, and lived a "normal" life. Lived a life where I hadn't complicated my career, hadn't made my wife's life harder, and didn't risk serious complications to my daughters social life. If your instincts tell you that you should stay in the closet, then do what your guts and your heart tell you to do, and to hell with what anyone else thinks. In the end it is you and your family that make these choices and that live with the consequences.

Gawd...I just had to respond Kimberly

Three years ago was the first time I actually transformed completely and on that very same night, ventured out in public. At first I thought it was harmless "fun' but soon realized it was much more than that. I realized quickly that this was an integral part of me and I could no longer stifle it. I'll not go into that as I have earlier posts if anyone wishes to know more about my history.

So the "closet" has never been part of my TG life. I was out in public from the very beginning and have stayed out since. Now certain folk may wish to deem this to be courageous and those activists who reside under the TG umbrella would likely applaud but I live two lives. I do not dare come out at work because as Kimberly has so eloquently mentioned, there are consequences. In my case, they would be much more catastrophic. Having control of ones' privacy is a luxury the "public" TG loses once she walks out the door.

I shave my legs and have no body hair now. I have grown my nails and I pluck my eyebrows. Some members of my family think I'm gay. Some others think I'm a "freak" My wife told me she married a man, and not a TG female and as much as she accepted all of this, she couldn't bear the harsh scrutiny and humiliation that tends to randomly rear it's ugly head when you often least expect it, and so we are now divorced. My boss even flew down to "see if I was ok" because he had heard I was "not looking well"

I live my life as a TG female most of the time now.I cannot have friends over to my house because to do so, would change everything between us. My family members cannot come to visit me and stay with me. I was involved with a lovely lady who actually was a huge enabler with this discovery up until the "fun" stopped and it became serious for me..that relationship is also over now. I am too "passive" I believe she often said.

Courage....hmmm...I ask you..does it matter?...courage?...will courage make your friends accept you or your employer not demote you or worse?

Will courage stop the harsh scrutiny?
...or make you walk down the street with your head held up high, proud to be so different? Will courage stop folk from humiliating your wife...or your children?...or alienating your family?

The reality is that a price is to be paid for being who we are. The choice we make is just how high of a price will we be prepared to pay.

I saw someone write in this forum in answer to the question about whether to go out in public with friends (who had expressed curiosity about the femme inside)

Her answer to this person was "what have you got to lose?"

One has lots to lose, let me assure you.

I went back and read the original thread and noted that this one person mentioned that she was "too valuable at work" to be fired for cd ing....hmmm.....well perhaps she ought to test that theory....tomorrow....I would be very interested in the outcome. I mean after all, if one is that wedded to the notion that "courage and guts" are high held principles that will sustain us through all sorts of challenges well then I say....start putting those principles to a real test...something meaningful...and not by stopping to gas up your car because You stand to lose nothing in that situation.

This is not about courage...or guts. This is about facing the reality of who you are and making a CHOICE on how to live your life in a way that allows you a level of peace and security and also being satisfied with the price you paid...because there is a price you know.

BTW..speaking of going out in public....I was at a bar with several of my TG friends two weeks ago...and out of the blue....totally random...I was outed....I now have more choices to make.

I do not lament my lot in life. I have made choices that reflect who and what I am. Perhaps I have risked and lost too much. Only I will be able to answer that question as time goes on.

Best wishes to all who make the choice that keeps them safe and at peace.

Duana

08-08-2011, 07:22 PM

So you are too busy "having fun in the real world to lead a revolution," huh? Well good for you! Truly! If you can have such fun, I am all for it.

Thank you, Anne. I AM too busy having fun being out in the real world. Sunday was spent at the Galleria shopping, bought a nice bikini bottom a Victoria Secret, then to a nice piano bar for drinks.

http://i56.tinypic.com/vyt72s.jpg

The problem I have with your responses, however, and despite what you claim to the contrary, is that you go out of your way to call those such as I out on the carpet.

I never personally called you out on the carpet. You took it upon yourself to be offended because YOU said you'd love to go out with shaved legs and painted toes. Do I need to go get the quotation?

And given that you are too busy to promote the transgender agenda yourself, because you are admittedly having too much fun to become involved, how dare you call me out!

By virtue of being out, I promote the agenda, dear. You do nothing for it. You're never in public therefore you don't exist in their minds. I crossed the paths of HUNDREDS of people Sunday. I'll ask you again. How many have seen you dressed and therefore become more aware of the commonality of crossdressing men in the world? That's what I thought.

Admittedly, however, I am at quite a disadvantage here. I do not know you, yet you appear to know me much better than I know myself. So how can I even begin to argue and debate against you? Particularly since you suffer from an obvious superiority complex. I have no possible way in which to reach you! Not that, at this point, I have any desire to do so, mind you . . . .

And yet you start a thread dedicated solely for the purpose of doing that.

I could go on and on with this, picking your argument, or what you believe constitutes an argument, apart with ease. But really, "I'm too busy having fun in" my closet "to lead a revolution" against members who have no idea of that which they speak.

Then why not leave me the F*** alone and go put on a dress and admire yourself in the mirror?

I've tried to let this thing die. I've said at least three times, I really don't care if you stay in your closet until you need to wear Depends instead of a thong. Drop it!

LitaKelley

08-08-2011, 07:38 PM

I read your post many times, and still see hipocracy. You want "certain types" of CD's to remain out of the public's eye to make it easier for TS and those with GID to gain acceptance (hmmm - no mention of acceptance of CD's) . Instead of your verbose bashing, just tell me where I misread your post. Or are you just a TS looking down your nose at us mere CD's?

Excuse me? Stop adding your own conjecture and interpretation and only then will you actually get it. WHERE in any of MY ACTUAL WORDS do I SAY ANYTHING in regards to acceptance, and further.. where am I bashing anyone or anything? It's in your own mind. I'm not gonna go in circles with you over this, nor should I have to explain anything.. Use a dictionary if you have to... maybe even read it slower..

While I'm at it... how is an extreme transvestic fetishist sissy a "mere CD's" and WHY should such a person NEED to be OUT in a supermarket?? Further... why should this even be acceptable? Do take note of specific words and look up their meaning.. maybe it'll help you understand... I'll even give you a hint... try EXTREME for starters

Anne2345

08-08-2011, 09:05 PM

Upon reflection, I have removed the post I previously directed at Duana within this space. Not because I believe anything I conveyed to her was inaccurate or undeserved, but rather because I now recognize, after calming down, that I allowed myself to be sucked into a no-win, petty argument with a member bent on attack regardless of the facts. In this, I regretfully lowered my otherwise high standard of conduct in my response to this particular member.

As to those members that do go out in public - yes, I very much believe that you all accomplish much good being out and about. For any that read my comment to Duana on this issue, such comment was directed solely at her, within a moment of extreme frustration, within the context that closeted crossdressers do not serve the community.

Regardless, all who know me here know that I support all members within the transgendered community. It is a beautiful, loving, caring community (for the most part), and one in which I am extremely proud to be a member of. :)

Last, in Duana's post that follows this post, she has quoted me from the post that I have removed. In the event you read such post, do keep in mind that these quotes are the very statements I have deleted herein.

Thanks!

Anne :)

TxKimberly

08-08-2011, 09:12 PM

Cant ya just feel the love?

Melody Moore

08-08-2011, 09:53 PM

I am off to see my pyschologist in about an hour or so. So I am going to ask her some questions
about this topic this morning, just to get some feedback from a professional who works in a gender
clinic dealing with these types of issues - so I will be sure to post my feedback later on today ;)

As promised here is the report from my clinical psychologist at my local
gender clinic who I only finished talking to only about 30 minutes ago.

I asked my therapist this morning what are the reasons that she knows of why a transgendered
person, (crossdressers, transsexuals etc) might stay in the closet? and here is what she said....

"Most transgendered people in my clinical experience will stay in the closet for reasons that are
'fear based', mostly because they fear rejection & discrimination, however there are those
cross-dressers that dress up for sexual fetish reasons (transvestic fetishism) that prefer to stay
in the closet & keep their cross-dressing habits on a part-time because they feel that if they did
dress up all the time, then they would lose the excitement or feelings they experience from dressing."

I then told her my personal belief was that transgendered people, no matter who
they are must to what is right for them & what makes them happy and she replied...

"Absolutely! There is no right or wrong about this, what is right
for someone else might not necessarily suit someone else".

I then mentioned about the issues I brought up in my earlier post (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?157816-Closeted-Crossdressers-Lack-quot-GUTS-quot-and-a-quot-SACK.-quot-Or-do-We&p=2564358&viewfull=1#post2564358) about some of the issues that have
been plaguing my local support group, which my clinical psychologist was also instrumental in setting
up originally with a few members of our local transgender community. I told her about how one of the
group's main organisers had told me that she was thinking about kicking out one of the girls in our group
because she hadn't still made any effort to start dressing up as a female to start her transition. And this
immediately raised my therapist's eyebrows & she was shocked to hear that this was happening in our group.

My therapist went on to say how "Acceptance of gender diversity is the key for our group that will provide
the best support our local transgender community." and then I replied "Exactly! and some people might not
need to transition, and they can understand better where they fit into the transgender spectrum & also find
better acceptance in the community if they are allowed to socialise & network with other gender identity types.
Excluding everyone else who doesn't fit the norms of a transsexual, ie: on hormones, out of the closet & living
full-time as a female was extremely counter productive to not only those involved, but to our group as a whole."

Again my pyschologist replied "Absolutely, but at the same time you need to be careful not to open the group up
too much where some people out there might see it as as an opportunity to 'pick-up-a-tranny' or allow others to
infiltrate the group that disrupt the group, or bring in a gang of guys to bash everyone up." But then when I told
her that we would only open up the group to the public as a whole when we had organised events where we have
security staff also working for us when we are running our bigger social events. Then I told her about how "One of
my lesbian girlfriends who identifies as gender queer is also a licensed security officer, and wants to volunteer her
services as well to ensuring the safety of our group at any smaller events". My pyschologist just smiled at me and
said "Gee girl, you really have got everything covered, but remember that acceptance of gender diversity is key!"

I said "Absolutely!" and left soon after that feeling really re-affirmed about the path I was starting to leading our local
support group on. Further more to this I am currently developing a new website for our local group which I will be happy
to share links to in another month or so after our next meeting when our committee will be elected, our mission statement
will be drawn up, along with the drafting of key policies. I believe it's time to end the divide in the transgender community. :)

AllieSF

08-08-2011, 09:56 PM

Yes, Kimberly, I can feel the love. NOT! I have started and erased a post to this thread two times. I think this time I will finish it.

First, Duana, please go re-read what you wrote in this thread and others recently. I have. You did say that those (not just Anne) lack guts and need to grow a sack. That to me alone is inappropriate for anyone to write here to another member. When you want to admit you said that specifically about closeted crossdressers and admit that it was too harsh, then maybe I will listen more to your opinions in the future. Using your words, not mine, if you want to show your guts, grow a sack, or better stated, be a mature caring adult, then own up to your harsh words, then apologize and let it be. Everyone has their own opinion and are entitled to voice that opinion on this forum. However, there is decorum and maturity associated with replying. Unfortunately, you did not show much of that in your posts.

On a positive side, I too believe that going out does help further our own cause to get the toleration and hopefully acceptance that we have every right to expect. I don't march in the Pride parades, but I am there on the sidelines cheering them on, hugging the participants and interfacing with whomever is lucky enough to be standing next to me. I really do talk to complete strangers every time I go out dressed as Allie. I also do some of those backroom activities, like voting for qualified candidates who also support LGBT causes and rights. Is being out there the most effective way to move us ahead? In my opinion no. However, much of the prejudice and mistreatment comes from people who are ignorant about diversity and about LGBT in general. So, getting out and meeting people, being recognized as a transgendered person, telling our side of the story helps erase that ignorance.

So, in summary, others and Duana, please respect others for who they are and what they can do, and do not castigate them for not following your own opinion of what they should be doing. The whole intent of this thread as I see it is to ask for tolerance among ourselves here and support rather than criticism.

PretzelGirl

08-08-2011, 09:57 PM

I'm all awash with the love. :lovestruck:

Kumbaya......

Duana

08-08-2011, 10:00 PM

Wow, Anne.

I appreciate the time you took to write such a detailed response. At the moment, I don't have time to deal with it in detail and I'm not allowed to post in this thread anymore. Please allow me to just make a few comments and get back to my real work.

By your own admission, you do nothing for the “agenda” except go out in public. And do you really think that accomplishes anything substantive? That is your argument in a nutshell – be seen, and discrimination ends! So jump in, the water is warm! Fear not!

Absolutely I think it accomplishes something. I didn't say it ends discrimination but when I go out with my GG, it shatters myths and stereotypes. Strolling through the mall hand in hand, dancing at the bar to the piano music are the kind of things that make people go "hmmmm."

But I will admit – nice picture!

Thanks. Nice of you to say.

However, you have also failed to cite any authority or recognized sources in support of your opinion. ...
But I would like to know more about how you arrived at your opinion, and the support for it. What experience and expertise do you base your opinion on? Are you out and about in transgendered rallies?

Its called history, Anne.

I'm not worried about the TS's, I'm more interested in shattering the myths about heterosexual crossdressers. A sickening majority, even amongst the gay crowd (admittedly, my own anectdotal evidence) think we're all gay.

Women, gays, and minorities have been fighting for decades and centuries for equal rights. They have yet to achieve it.

There's a good reason to stop.

Actually, all of those groups have made tremendous strides. It's not like they've made no progress.

And speaking of education, when you are out and about being seen by hundreds of people in the mall, do you take them time to educated them about yourself and “our” issues? Or do you merely walk by them with a smile on your face, saying nothing except “hello?”

I talk to anyone interested in talking to me. Most are afraid to approach me but I've talked to dozens.

You said that hundreds are people saw you on Sunday. Are you aware that there are more than 300,000,000 people in the United States alone? You accomplished much, you did, while shopping for new bras and panties at Victoria’s Secret. I thank you on behalf of the closeted community for your service to us all!

I'm wiping the sarcasm off my keyboard to say, I never said I could do it alone. Twice I've commented that if we ALL did it, we'd make an impact.

Oh, wait, you have one other plan – to attempt to shame us closet dwellers into coming out by stating such things that we lack “guts,” a “sack,” and that we are doing nothing for the transgendered community, whereas you are being viewed by hundreds of people in a mall. Great plan! Good luck with that!

It is STILL 2 orders of magnitude more than you're doing. You educated your wife, I educated hundreds in a day, at least to the degree that there are heterosexual crossdressers.

You are quite naive in your assessment of me,

I think thats the third time you've used the word 'naive'. You're not a bad writer but try to vary your adjectives a little to keep it interesting.

All I ask is that members respect one another, and debate and discuss their differences and opinions with class, diginity, and kindness.

This is so hypocritical it is laughable. You started an attack thread aimed squarely at me. Classy. Kind. Dignified.

And in this, you would do quite well to read the other responses herein, and reassess have you have conducted yourself on this issue.

Yes, mother.

As to the fact that I would like to shave my legs in the summer and display my painted toes, so what? You keep coming back to this.

It bugs the hell out of you doesn't it? I bet you wish you could take that one back.

I happen to have an aversion to body hair.

LOL! Yeah, ok.

Leave you alone? You are the one that came back to this thread. Or did you forget that you had previously said the following within this thread earlier:

I had to take a few knives out of my back.

So are you done now?

Maybe. I always reserve the right to defend myself, Anne. Sorry to disappoint you.

Cant ya just feel the love?

LOL! Oh yeah.

When you want to admit you said that specifically about closeted crossdressers and admit that it was too harsh, then maybe I will listen more to your opinions in the future. Using your words, not mine, if you want to show your guts, grow a sack, or better stated, be a mature caring adult, then own up to your harsh words, then apologize and let it be.

Already done 2 days ago, Allie. Go read my response to Reine.

Cherry Lynn

08-08-2011, 10:09 PM

Love makes the workd go 'round.

ReineD

08-08-2011, 11:51 PM

Courage....hmmm...I ask you..does it matter?...courage?...will courage make your friends accept you or your employer not demote you or worse?

Will courage stop the harsh scrutiny?
...or make you walk down the street with your head held up high, proud to be so different? Will courage stop folk from humiliating your wife...or your children?...or alienating your family?

The reality is that a price is to be paid for being who we are. The choice we make is just how high of a price will we be prepared to pay.

I'm highlighting this, not to respond to you directly Tonya, but to remind all those who champion being out and proud to visit the TS section. Many of the TSs adamantly protect their right to go stealth after they've transitioned. They're not interested in championing any cause and only wish to live their lives in peace, free of the harsh scrutiny.

It seems to come to a full circle.

This is not about courage...or guts. This is about facing the reality of who you are and making a CHOICE on how to live your life in a way that allows you a level of peace and security and also being satisfied with the price you paid...because there is a price you know.

Well said.

Melody Moore

08-09-2011, 12:56 AM

Wars, disputes & arguments usually result in noone being a winner, it will always
come at a cost & it happens far too often where you end up losing everything.

flatlander_48

08-09-2011, 08:22 AM

In the strictest sense, Coming Out or not is a Risk versus Reward balance. And, that balance is different for everyone. It's different because of the values we hold, what we perceive the possible rewards and what the potential consequences are. I don't believe that everyone can be judged by such a simple criteria as if you don't, you're lacking.

The truth is 1000 people = 1000 equations...

Chickhe

08-09-2011, 10:08 AM

The way I see it, there should be no negative attitude about staying hidden. You have to reach a balance and protect yourself. However, I give praise to anyone who does go out in public (and you don't have to be out to do that). There is a huge personal benefit and it takes a lot of guts to do it the first time (that doesn't mean anyone who doesn't do it has no guts). I found that going out allowed me to overcome some of my personal issues, such as self acceptance, shyness and I'm more accepting of others now. I'm also more likely to stand up for someone if they are being treated poorly.

Schatten Lupus

08-09-2011, 10:15 AM

It's sad how people here will turn such a small difference into a very large argument.
And no, you don't have to be out to help raise awareness of the trans community. I had one psych teacher who put in the simplest way possible that GID is not a body dysmorphic disorder, just like gays they do not choose to be living a way that causes them alot of problems, the amount of money spent on surgeries being more evidence that they are trying to be who they are on the inside, and we even watched a documentary that covered the lives and transitions of some FtM individuals at varying states of transition. Another one of my psych teachers had a guest speaker in class who is a MtF post-op transsexual. I even used gender identity variances as a topic for a speech once and I am well respected and viewed as a very credible person in my school. And even just voting for pro-GLBT candidates and writing your representatives concerning GLBT legislation is helping out.
Yes, fear holds alot of us back. And of course there is nothing wrong with that, as fear is a very basic survival instinct. But rather than talking down on such people, don't you think it would be better to offer a guiding hand into the world? Or just acknowledge the fact that not everyone wants to come out. I read a story on here once of a lawyer who nearly lost everything, and quit dressing altogether. In such situations, some people will decide that the consequences just are not worth what may only be a very small benefit to them.
But it's not just fear, it's reality. The reality is violence towards the GLBT community as a whole has been on the rise. The reality is in some states you can legally be fired and evicted just for being transgendered. The reality is that there are very many homeless, unemployed, beaten, and murdered people just because they stepped out of the closet. I can't find the site, but somewhere a site list all the discovered transgendered individuals that have been murdered during the current year. The harsh reality is, is that even if you are fortunate enough to live in a place where gender identity is a legally protected status, there are still ways around the laws, and they can't protect you from every crazy and violent person out there.
So rather than attack someone for not going out of the closet, it is best to just accept their decision, for whatever reason, to remain in the closet. This is a very terrible reason to be fighting amongst ourselves, and does nothing but barrage those who are in the closet with shameful and degrading remarks from people who are supposed to be on their side.

cyndi2be

08-09-2011, 10:23 AM

I am private because I want to be - I've looked at all the reasons to come out and not to come out - I still choose to remain private. I have come out in the past (partially) - felt good - but also feels good wher I am now also.

TxKimberly

08-09-2011, 10:25 AM

For the life of me, I can't understand why people are getting so very worked up and short tempered about it.
We all make choices in our lives. We weigh the Pros and the Cons, and then we decide what we are going to do.
I think it's fairly rare when an issue is black and white - either right or wrong. Usually it is more along the lines of what is right or wrong for me or for my family, and this may or may not apply to others.
Disagreeing is fine - hell it even makes things interesting, but WHY are people getting mean about it? It doesn't speak well of us if we can't disagree without getting ugly.

Stephanie47

08-09-2011, 10:52 AM

I'm an in-home cross-dresser. It is my choice. I do not think there is one poster here who knows why he is a cross-dresser. I engage in cross-dressing because it brings me much needed peace and tranquility when needed. I find that when alone in my home or my secluded backyard. I do not need to be cured of cross-dressing, although life would be simpler if I weren't. Or, maybe life would be more complicated finding peace and tranquility in another manner- drugs, booze?? If I seek peace and tranquility, why in the world would I want to go out and strut my stuff in public? Why give up peace and tranquility for public dispersion and ridicule? Yes, my legal community protects the rights of a cross-dresser. Does that stop a friend or family member from avoiding you? No! Do I want to lose all my friends and family? No! Sometimes there are unintended consequences of one's actions. If you're inclined to get out there and be militant, so be it! My level of interest in cross-dressing meets my psychological needs. I haven't dressed for two months and feel fine. I haven't felt the urge to be en-femme for two months. I feel fine. I do not feel frustrated. Right now I am at peace. Do I need to put on a dress right now? No, so I won't.