I’m getting really sick of this…

[Frédérique]

OK – I was lurking last night, as I often do, and I noticed another round (or two) of closeted vs. un-closeted crossdresser “discussions” (let’s call them arguments). By my count, this is the fifth or sixth one we’ve had in the past few months, and I’m getting REALLY sick of this. It’s a complete waste of time, it’s divisive in the extreme, and it makes me want to blow up my own closet, remove this site from my list of "favorites," and find something more productive to do. Both sides of this discussion drive me to tears, and the fact that I have tears to shed is a clue to where I stand, namely outside of the so-called “community,” as well as both sides of this ongoing diatribe...

I really wanted to pack it in last night and slip away unnoticed, but, against my better judgment, I thought I would write something about this nonsense before I move on. Call it a catharsis, one of many. It’s really disheartening to witness the rifts within the MtF section, time and time again, expressed within the thoughtful and thoughtless prose that passes for communication around here. This latest argument reminds me of all other forms of male one-upmanship, where the contest can be visualized as two (or more) un-tucked males waving their genitalia at each other across a gulf. Hey boys, how about prying those chips off of your shoulders to get in touch with something the clothes might represent? Leave the so-called “MOMENT” and look within – seek compassion for others who are unlike you, and try to understand that one size, or one circumstance, does not fit all. In short, drop the MALE, will you please?

Leave the closet, get out and “educate” people about crossdressing? Great idea! I’ll explode my precious closet, turn myself inside out, and head out the door in my feminine finery. Let’s see – I need to explain myself to ten people, and they will in turn be so amazed by my eloquence that they will tell ten people about the wonders of crossdressing, and so on. Well, it’s hot out there, so I’m already ruining my fetishistic garments by being “out,” but let’s press on to please the other crossdressers who insist I must show myself. First of all, my sister will be very worried about me, since I will be placing myself in harm’s way. No matter – I’m on a “mission” for the community. Shall I skip over to my neighbor’s house, where the kids are playing in the yard? “That’s Mr. So-and-So, kids – he likes to dress up!” Yeah, that’ll happen. I don’t think I can look forward to any more fresh tomatoes from my neighbor’s garden, but sacrifices must be made...

OK, I’m walking down the street, past an elementary school – I can’t go in there, though, since I represent an alternative form of behavior associated with sexual deviancy, akin to homosexuality, bisexuality, bestiality, and other forms of perversion, according to the purveyors of family values (i.e. parents). Next, I walk past a church, actually two churches on either side of a street – kind of like those two males I told you about earlier in this post, but I digress. I can’t go into either one of the churches and twirl about, trying to impress the congregation (if there is one – they may be at home, after all, staying cool), because I will once again bump into the moral scaffolding and family values I encountered back at the school – why bother banging my head against an impenetrable barrier? The conversation, if one took place, would go something like this: “I’m a male and I like to wear women’s clothing – see?” followed by, in response, “I will pray for you.”

The next stop is the “Wellness Center.” What do you suppose will happen there, if I float into the “space” of the receptionist and declare my intention of educating all within earshot about my crossdressing? They may call the police, or they may attempt to “cure” me. Keep in mind where I live, please. I could walk into the local watering hole, no doubt populated by farmers, bikers, and overheated tourists, and tell everyone the virtues of being a sissy, with clothes to match, but what do you think would happen? Most of these people are the very individuals who beat me up in school, or they are the athletic descendents of those bullies, no doubt taught by their fathers to detect and eliminate queers, which is what I happen to be. I don’t foresee a captive audience in such a locale, in fact I would make a mental note of the exits at all times for a quick get-away. I can hear laughter, even from the few women present, with nary a drop of compassion for my chosen lifestyle. People do NOT wish to be educated about crossdressing – do you see a trend developing?

Why don’t I just saunter into City Hall and present myself as God’s gift to gender agony? The last time I saw a gender-unspecific person pay his/her utility bill in this place, the clerk behind the counter made an expression that could best be translated as “IT’S A QUEER!” The clerk actually looked at me, trying to point out her revulsion to a “normal” looking person – too bad I wasn’t dressed up, or she could’ve reached a new level of bigoted disgust! Am I supposed to provide this service, as some form of education? Tell you what – why don’t I just walk into the police station and introduce myself? There’s not much going on in this town, and I’m sure the “boys” could use a good laugh – I guarantee that’s what will happen, while I’m being identified for future reference, that is. Maybe I should visit the local V.F.W. Hall, and show the assembled veterans what kind of freedom they’ve been fighting for – that’s bound to go over BIG, wouldn’t you say?

If I manage to make it home in one piece, humiliated, dirty, sweaty, torn, and exposed as a threat to normalcy, I might just go underground completely and wait until everything blows over. The moral to this tale is that I am NOT perceived as a moral individual by the supposedly moral population. It's not fair, but I don't have the energy to fight the system, in fact fighting is abhorrent to me. I have been marginalized, but also created, by society, and I keep to myself to preserve all I hold dear. I’m amazed that more individuals on this site don’t feel that way, but sometimes the silence around here can be deafening. To me, “passing” is infinitely more important than trying to educate a reluctant public about something they wish didn’t exist, and inserting yourself into other people’s spaces in an effort to stroke your own crossdressing ego is not something I want to do – not now, not ever. I am meek, to be sure, but I do not wish to inherit the Earth – I just wish to practice my crossdressing in peace and NOT bother anyone…

I came here to “discuss” crossdressing with other crossdressers, not bend individuals to my will like a male would do. I wish to tuck everything away and seek a separate peace for myself, but the presence of male attitudes in this section scares me. I “speak” for the MtF crossdressers who neither stay in the closet, nor go out very much – we express ourselves according to who we are, when we can, and we recognize that we don’t fit in very well, for better or worse. Same as it ever was, but I cannot endorse male behavior, no matter how you dress it up…

I wish to highlight this post by the inimitable docrobbysherry, which says it all:


1.I don't wish to look like a "man in a dress" or dress like the average woman my age. I HATE BLENDING! I want to look more like real women, but the WOMEN IN MY DREAMS!

2. I don't simply "thro on" a few girlie items. I plan each dressing session for days or weeks! Each session takes 3 or more hours to prep for. I couldn't do this very often and it wouldn't be SPECIAL if I did!

3. When I dress, I dress FOR ME ALONE! I don't EVER HAVE TO CONSIDER WHAT ANYONE ELSE THINKS! That means never having to compromise my look!

4. When I DO go out dressed with other girls, out of consideration I dress vanilla to BLEND! And, I ALWAYS feel like I'm a spy in a disguise! Because THAT'S NOT WHO I AM! I'm Sherry! I'm: ridiculous, sublime, sexy, wild, crazy, famous, beautiful, semi-nude, classic, classy, classless, ANYTHING but vanilla!

So, I admit I'm a COWARD! That I'm afraid! Afraid of MYSELF and afraid CDing may become ordinary, common, normal, something other than the VERY SPECIAL activity it is for me now!

Amen! To some of us, crossdressing is a special “event,” and I aim to keep it that way...:hmph:

[kristinacd55]

Wow, kind of hard to respond Frederique......my lil head might explode. I agree with what your saying wholeheartedly, it's supposed to be "SUPPORTING" but I see so much negativity it makes me sick. Just don't leave here, I enjoy your thoughtful posts very much.....

[Barbara Dugan]

Well said Frederique, I share your point of view.

[Kaitlyn26]

:hugs: It sounds like you need a girl friend more than anything. Do you have any?

[michelle2020cd]

love it, hate all the aruging

[AllieSF]

Frederique,

It is so true what you write. I go out when I want and am more than happy to encourage and help others who have not been out yet and want to taste the outside world. I appreciate that it is not for everyone, so each to their own. That being said, I too get tired of the maleness in other CD's and even TS's, that dictate their knowledge, opinions and instructions to others to do as they say and have done. I don't mind when people point out that one may find some pleasant and happy surprises if one tries it their way, or follows their recommendations. But to insist that others follow and accept their opinions, and then defend them with the same denigrating tone of writing calling other peoples' reasoning to the contrary "nonsense" does nothing but bring out the maleness (for us MtF's) that they cover up in female trappings. I truly believe that one should do that which they are comfortable doing, stretching their limits when they feel that is what they want and they think that they are ready for it. No one knows the specific conditions and situation that each of has have that influences our decisions and actions. Yes, some things are influenced by fears, real or imagined. But they should not be influenced by insensitive, testosterone filled rants by others.

[arbon]

Why don’t I just saunter into City Hall and present myself as God’s gift to gender agony? The last time I saw a gender-unspecific person pay his/her utility bill in this place, the clerk behind the counter made an expression that could best be translated as “IT’S A QUEER!” The clerk actually looked at me, trying to point out her revulsion to a “normal” looking person – too bad I wasn’t dressed up, or she could’ve reached a new level of bigoted disgust!

That made me laugh. In a kind of sick and twisted way I sometimes find the expressions on peoples faces when they realize, or are trying to figure out, what I am to be amusing. Especially the ones that have that look of revulsion and roll their eyes. You can get a little closer to really make them squirm. Or come back again.

It is off the topic and it is something I should not find amusing because it is not why I am doing what I am doing and i really don't like making people uncomfortable like that. But when it does happen, I don't know why, but I am usually trying to hold back my laughter.

On the topic I think people should do what they feel is right for them. It's pretty simple.

[Diana Bain]

Could it be that this site is becoming "the real world"? I hope not...there are many good, understanding and kind women here...let not a few spoil it for us all!

[RADER]

Frederique,
What you say is true; However, some of us here can not go out because we would look like a
coal miner in a dress digging coal. Sorry Karren, But it is true. I my self would love to go out
of the house dressed, But can you see a Paul Bunion in a dress, with a beard and an ax????
Just remember, We are all different here, and that is what makes this forum a great place for
all of us to share ideas, experiences, and comments.
So please do not run away, WE all need each others help and good thoughts.
Rader

[Tess]

Well stated as always. I agree. I'm here to share experiences and interests, not change the world. I hope you stay. Reading your thoughtful posts and Karen's humor are things that keep me around.

[Karren H]

Personally love all the drama. Especially since I didn't cause any of it!! Like a reality show.... The Real Housewives Want-a-be's of crossdressers.com! Lol.

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

I find such arguments repetitive and boring, but tend to take the middle ground.

I think that a sticky would probably be good at this point.

Essentially, I see it this way. Some people are closeted and don't want to go out, some people are closeted and do want to go out but haven't managed to do so yet. Nobody should be telling any of them that they must go out for whatever reason, nor should anybody be telling them not to go out and using scare tactics or inciting fear to do so. The idea of this site is to be supportive of others, and hence it is appropriate that real stories of experiences both good and bad should be shared here.

If people want to make up stories of fear and intimidation based upon their imagined worst-case scenarios, they should submit them to fictionmania, not post them here.

[Gaby2]

I came here to “discuss” crossdressing with other crossdressers
Hi Freddy, thanks for another marvellous outburst!:)

I'm sorry that you feel so disenchanted and for your tears.
Nonetheless, I can't help feeling thankful for the initial debate, especially because it provoked your reaction.
I find it kinda nice that you do a little more than just discuss...

I was with you all the way on your hypothetical journey.
Indeed it felt (su)really real.
It really is an ill wind that doesn't blow some good, you know...
even if it is only for the rest of us!

Me being me couldn't help playing around with your moaning.
I asked myself:
Dare I suggest another scenario?
Dare I look at you (and me) "out and about" from a different perspective?
(Crossdressing says hello...:wave:)

-----

... and there I was, virtuosely skipping along behind you in my heels and pretty dress as you set off down the road...
"Oh look!" cried one of the school-kids, "there's Freddy".
All of the kids ran to the railing.
They were jumping up and down, happily screaming "Hi, Freddy!"
You turned a little, smiled sweetly, gave a wave and continued on your way.
The little tikes didn't even notice me!

As you neared the twin churches a group of elderly people were formed in a circle on one of the lawns.
They invited you to join them.
One of the ladies took your hand before you could even answer.
The sight of you practicing folk-dance and enjoying yourself no-end was unbelievable.
I left you at it and sat on a nearby stone listening to the birds.

A little while later, you were apologizing profusely for having to leave...
you had an appointment at the "Wellness Center".

The receptionist there beamed with delight as she noticed you coming in.
She gave an admiring if somewhat cheeky comment about your outfit.
You blushed.
Everybody had been so looking forward to your next talk on crossdressing - I particularly enjoyed the various aspects you touched on in your own inimitable way!

We spent some time together afterwards, chatting about this and that.
Time just flew by. We parted.

You told me later how you then went to pick up your best friend who works as a clerk at City Hall.
What an afternoon you had - some Veterans were assembled in the Square getting ready for the upcoming commemoration celebrations. Your friend's Dad was among them and you ended up holding a banner for a while, just to help out.
Everyone seems to know you in this town and you had such a good time.

-----

:hugs: a simple creation...
Gaby

[EllieOPKS]

So if posts like closeted vs not bugs you then why read the post? It is other people expressing opinion which they have the right to do. Your opinion is no better than mine and vice versa. If you have no tolerance maybe your thoughts of leaving the forum is the best thing for you.

[Nicole Erin]

Personally love all the drama. Especially since I didn't cause any of it!! Like a reality show.... The Real Housewives Want-a-be's of crossdressers.com! Lol.

If you bring the popcorn, I can have the sodas ready. And please, not too much salt this time.

[busker]

Frédérique, i've quit lurking and logged on just to say BRAVO. I couldn't agree with you more. There does seem to be a lot of one-upsmanship going on lately.

[Nicole Erin]

Frédérique, i've quit lurking and logged on just to say BRAVO. I couldn't agree with you more. There does seem to be a lot of one-upsmanship going on lately.

Oh yeah? well I know this one forum, with a lot of THREE-upsmanship going on!

[Nigella]

Surely by posting such a rebuttle of the differing arguments regarding in or out is perpetuating the "debate". You do have a control on this matter it is called "logging off".

Our own rules allow such posts and provided they stay within the rules each thread/post has a valid place on this forum.

[eluuzion]

Please push button before proceeding...
www.dramabutton.com

Spank you...er, ah...I mean Thank you for providing further evidence on a couple of personal theories of mine...

1)The only real support you can count on is that provided by your pantyhose...:heehee:

2) Sometimes the only noticeable difference between adults and children is their height. Adults typically are taller. :D

Life is just one big sandbox.:hugs:

You did a nice job of highlighting the real world consequences that exist when you leave the Disneyland world of the internet, where actions do not seem to produce logical consequences...:thumbsup:

If you are not making a living in a literary connected field, I think you are missing your calling. Just my opinion...

Now, eat your vegetables and get out of my sandbox! :heehee::D:heehee:

:hugs:

:love:

[Kaz]

Surely by posting such a rebuttle of the differing arguments regarding in or out is perpetuating the "debate". You do have a control on this matter it is called "logging off".

Our own rules allow such posts and provided they stay within the rules each thread/post has a valid place on this forum.

Thanks Nigella, I personally find the debates as informative as they are irritating. It would be a shame to start censoring debates that touch the essence of who we are. Then it would become just a reality show!

Freddie, I love all your posts - for the well articulated views and the insights - and I share your views on this post, except that I also agree with Karren and others but I can't help chipping in every now and again to defend the right of people to stay in the closet if they so wish.

If this basic human right offends part of our community then tough. Rather than see a unified CD community all hell bent on changing society's view, I would go for diversity every time. Can you imagine there only being one genre of music, novel, painting, sculpture, etc...?

[CatAttack]

Frédérique, first off, I want to say that I always enjoy your posts; they are very thoughtful and well written. I will agree with you that it is wrong to tell other people what to do, but on the other hand we can't censor debates. Debates are the life of forums and it helps one to see all the different points of view. That said, I think you've made a great point and that not everyone desires to be out. Well, actually from your post you seem to desire so, but circumstances have prevented you. But such is how it is, and some people say "who cares?" and go out anyway, while others remain in hiding for the rest of their lives. It's personal preference really, but in my opinion I think in the long run, going out would be healthier.

[Frédérique]

I was thinking of adding three other “stops” on my journey through the small Kansas town where I live, but I ran out of room. I was trying to visualize where I could talk to people about crossdressing, and my little tale is an accurate representation of where I live. I could’ve visited the local nursing home (and it's semi-captive audience), not too far away, but it is associated with the local college AND the local churches. I could give a talk about crossdressing over at the local college, of course, but it is also closely aligned with the local churches, and all matters of faith – they did have a brief get-together of some sort for TG individuals a couple of years ago, but it was barely mentioned and poorly attended. In other words, the prevailing mood is “Don’t ask, don’t tell...” I could also go to the local market, and slip my crossdressed self in among the fruits and vegetables, chatting up the shoppers, but I’m sure the manager would be summoned, and my picture would soon appear on the bulletin board – “HAVE YOU SEEN THIS INDIVIDUAL?” I can hear the locals howl, “Get a stick and kill it!” Just telling you how it IS, that's all...
:straightface:


So if posts like closeted vs not bugs you then why read the post? It is other people expressing opinion which they have the right to do. Your opinion is no better than mine and vice versa. If you have no tolerance maybe your thoughts of leaving the forum is the best thing for you.

It bugs me because it’s the umpteenth “discussion” along these lines, and I tend to read things my friends have written, whether I agree with them or not. Everyone’s opinion on this board is equally valid, but I get highly disturbed when stubbornness replaces flexibility as a debating tool. It’s also downright disgusting when one member projects their opinion from a perceived position of superiority, denouncing someone’s little share of personal paradise as a way of stroking one’s ego – since that kind of thing is allowed, I thought I would “speak” up and let others know what this section looks like from No Man’s Land...

Saying that I have no tolerance tells me YOU don’t have any tolerance for people you disagree with, but don’t get me started. To paraphrase something Gaby2 once wrote, I assess my “place” on this forum daily – I can do without these meaningless, counter-productive attacks on other member’s personal relationship to crossdressing, OK? I don’t understand why anyone would take the time to do such a thing...


Surely by posting such a rebuttle of the differing arguments regarding in or out is perpetuating the "debate". You do have a control on this matter it is called "logging off". Our own rules allow such posts and provided they stay within the rules each thread/post has a valid place on this forum.

May I point out, dear moderator, that saying something like, “You hide because you fear, your choice, plain and simple,” only pours gasoline on the flame war about to take place? I thought the mods were supposed to shepherd the discussion towards pastures of civility, not inflame and incite the proceedings. I get the feeling that you (and others) want to perpetuate this rift between those who stay in the closet, and those who insist we get out and “educate” the unenlightened – how else can one explain the plethora of threads that deal with this divisive topic? “Logging off’ is exactly what I do when I don’t like the tone of the give-and-take around here. I think there are much better things to discuss, if you ask me, and marginalizing certain types of crossdressers within the “community,” or the MtF section, where many individuals seek support and reassurance for their chosen lifestyle, is just plain wrong...


Freddie, I love all your posts - for the well articulated views and the insights - and I share your views on this post, except that I also agree with Karren and others but I can't help chipping in every now and again to defend the right of people to stay in the closet if they so wish.
If this basic human right offends part of our community then tough. Rather than see a unified CD community all hell bent on changing society's view, I would go for diversity every time. Can you imagine there only being one genre of music, novel, painting, sculpture, etc...?

I unfalteringly defend the right of those who wish to stay in the closet, along with the rights of all crossdressers, which means I also must begrudgingly defend the MEN in women’s clothing, and their need to dominate the proceedings when they see fit. I don’t need to project myself as a “better” form of crossdresser to anyone, nor do I wish to confront those who think they’re superior to me, but there is a beautiful thing called civility, and it’s very easy to hurt the feelings of others around here. Like I say, every circumstance is different, so I would like to advise those who insist on a certain “position” to look around, pull back, and entertain some compassion – the clothes might help...

Diverse is definitely the best moniker for this community, and being aware of this diversity is the key to understanding, not only for the public, but also for the interesting individuals who have been gathered under one roof for convenience – we might as well make the best of it, not look for differences to exploit in the name of self-aggrandizement. Speaking of the different genres in art, I am a visual artist, and I automatically like all artists, no matter what level of expertise they may demonstrate, or what type (or school) of thinking they may adhere to. I COULD go out in public and give a talk about art – I may even be able to convince a few stoics that art is a worthwhile activity, but, much like I do with my crossdressing, I would rather stay at home, in my studio, creating images that give me great pleasure. Other, more outgoing artists wouldn’t dream of chastising me for my insular lifestyle, so why can’t the “out” crossdressers understand the closeted variety? I don’t get it...
:idontknow:

[Nigella]

May I point out, dear moderator, that saying something like, “You hide because you fear, your choice, plain and simple,” only pours gasoline on the flame war about to take place?

And pray tell what is wrong with such a simple statement, we all hide from our fears, in everywalk of our lives. I fear the gunman in the street, therefore I hide from him, I fear the strike of a lightening bolt, therefore I stay indoors and hide from it. It is my choice to hide from these fears, simple.


I thought the mods were supposed to shepherd the discussion towards pastures of civility, not inflame and incite the proceedings. I get the feeling that you (and others) want to perpetuate this rift between those who stay in the closet, and those who insist we get out and “educate” the unenlightened – how else can one explain the plethora of threads that deal with this divisive topic?

Just like every person who signs onto this board I AM A MEMBER. I have to abide by the same rules as you and all the other 1,000s of posters. I have the right to post, within the rules, and am subject to moderation just as everyone else is. I guess you forgot to read my signature


Nigella
Moderator
The comments made on the forum are those of Nigella the forum member, not Nigella the Moderator

If I post as a Moderator I always add this to a post MODERATION HERE. So just like you I am entitled to my opinion.



“Logging off’ is exactly what I do when I don’t like the tone of the give-and-take around here. I think there are much better things to discuss, if you ask me, and marginalizing certain types of crossdressers within the “community,” or the MtF section, where many individuals seek support and reassurance for their chosen lifestyle, is just plain wrong...

Just as you think there are better things to discuss, so do other members here. This forum is a cross section of the human race, just as RL is. I think though, that you believe that the in the closet, out the closet, issue is worth pursuing, otherwise why start this thread?? All you have done is keep the topic open, with an opinion on why staying in the closet is right for you, then castigating others who do not agree with you.

[Melody Moore]

All you have done is keep the topic open, with an opinion on why staying in
the closet is right for you, then castigating others who do not agree with you.
Well said Nigella!

I believe that if the OP would like to really get some peace about all this, then maybe they should start
to appreciate that other people, especially the TS folk on this site have differing opinions to CDers. And
as you know Nigella, 'I could' sit here all day too if I was so inspired & post a good argument about why
coming out of the closet was the right thing for me, but the key here is to agree to disagree & walk away.

If I got so annoyed by everything I seen & didn't like on this forum then I am 100% sure I would be a total
nut-case & wouldn't be where I am now, which is totally at peace with myself & living life freely to express
myself as the person I truly am. And if the OP had ever visited such a place where I am now in my own head,
then I am 100% positive the OP would NOT still be in the closet now - because from my own experience once
I let Melody out of her cage, there was no way that she would ever go back - personally I would rather die!

[Tina B.]

To quote Roddy King, "Can't we all just get along", in the closet or out, don't you think if it's important for you to do it, you will, and if it's not important to you, who really cares?
I get dressed up, and sneak out to the car, go for a drive, and I feel sick inside every time a car passes me, will they see what I really am, will I be read. This feeling while in a car by myself, tells me there is no way I would or could really go out in public. I'mperfectlyy happy at home in my closet, for those that are out, I applaude you, but I have no desire to join you. You have fun your way, and I will fill my basic needs to dress my way. The rest of it is open to discussion, but I'm not going out!
Tina B.

[TGMarla]

Bravo, Freddie! Well said. I have previously put forth the proposition that it is patently wrong for a few adventurous individuals to place the burden of guilt for all of society's stereotypical attitudes towards crossdressing on the shoulders of those who prefer to remain private about it all. In fact, it is a little shocking to realize that some here actually bear venom towards closeted individuals even though they cannot possibly know everyone else's unique situations.

In your hypothetical jaunt around town, you failed to make sure you called all of your relatives so they could become enlightened as well. That way they could all be waiting for you on your front porch with warm embraces for you when you returned, all basking in the glow of new understanding and tolerance. You could show them your favorite outfits while you prepared a wonderful afternoon meal for them to enjoy with you while everyone holds hands, sings Kumbayah, and smiles the warm smiles that only new-found knowledge and understanding can bring. Maybe the neighbors would come over with their kids with a warm peach cobbler for everyone to enjoy.

But nooooooo....... You have to stay closeted, don't you? Just remember that that road construction worker who just got off work and is sitting down at the local watering hole having a Budweiser in his sleeveless flannel shirt that allows him to show off his many tattoos only holds on to his preconceived ideas about "queers" because you refuse to go in there en femme, sit next to him on the barstool, and have a drink with him.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

This isn't really a TS thing Melody..i get what you are saying, but this is about crossdressing

In any case, it's a moderated internet forum. It's totally reasonable for the OP to raise an issue and discuss it. If people get out of line, posts get dropped, threads get closed..

It's a debatable point between reasonable people. The people that care have an idea that if somehow we all gave up the closet, it would somehow make life better for everyone...increase acceptance, etc..

Some folks with this point of view seem pretty arrogant and high minded about it(to the point of being thoughtless).. and folks that are in the closet are defensive about it...so it's a clash...

going out as a cd is an intense and personal experience, have people ever considered that a huge % of the cd population simply has NO INTEREST in being seen or sharing their hobby with others? To me this is a major blindspot in the discussion...

i think in the end, frederique you are wasting your breath bringing this up, but it's your breath, and I know I waste alot of breath around these parts too...........

[Crysten]

Frédérique, i've quit lurking and logged on just to say BRAVO. I couldn't agree with you more. There does seem to be a lot of one-upsmanship going on lately.

BRAVO is right Frédérique. 99% of this site's content is meaningless banality. Repeat ad-infinitum. "Gee when's the last time you dressed up" blah blah blah. Argue argue argue. Regardless of how much this site may have helped certain people, for me it's almost a complete waste of time, which is why I've pretty much given up on it. I dress up when I want (or can), in the manner that I want, for as long as I want. What other people think about it, well, who cares. No point in getting worked up over it. Nobodys business but mine. As what other people do is their business, and none of mine. New England upbringing to the rescue. Best of luck.

[TxKimberly]

Well Freddy,

You have been around here just about as long as I have. One thing I've noticed is that the same old topics always keep popping up again as new people hit the forum. No point to getting upset about it. ;)

[TGMarla]

I find it very ironic that there are some members here who suggest that the only way to gain wholesale tolerance from others is by going out in public and educating the world about us by doing so. Yet these same people are completely intolerant of those of us who choose to remain private. I would think the first step towards teaching tolerance would be to have some yourself.

[Melody Moore]

Yet these same people are completely intolerant of those of us who choose to remain private.

You really think so? If you are referring to me personally here then while I might offer a different opinion
from another viewpoint, I am not trying to change anyone or disrespect their decisions - hell if you want
to make life harder on yourself, then who the hell am I to stand in anyone's way? if you want to stay in
the closet, then stay in the damn closet if that is what really floats your boat. FFS! :daydreaming:

[Kaz]

I find it very ironic that there are some members here who suggest that the only way to gain wholesale tolerance from others is by going out in public and educating the world about us by doing so. Yet these same people are completely intolerant of those of us who choose to remain private. I would think the first step towards teaching tolerance would be to have some yourself.

Well said Marla... the posts of some people do suggest intolerance and lack of respect for the choices of others, often who are in very different circumstances. Sadly, even after the debate this continues to be the case.

As new people join the forum, the debate will always reappear, but I do find continued intolerance of others somewhat disheartening, especially amongst this community.

[Marcia Polari]

Hi Freddy
I've got your point.
I've already said I'm an avid follower of your posts.
But take a deep breathe honey.
And please don't go away from people who loves you.
Hugs,
Marcia

[Debra Russell]

Freddy, you go girl !!! I'am with you -- and frankly I have better things to do than read long winded repetitive rants -- and as I've said before "t'aint nobodys business but my own" we are here for support!! not CDing theology.............Debra

[Kaitlyn26]

*runs to get popcorn*

Goodness gracious this is good stuff! Freddy makes a thread about the threads that she hates, people from those threads that she hates continue the discussion here. This is prime time entertainment value right here. Forget the so called drama on TV, this blows it out of the water!

Rather than say "Can't we all just get along?" how about "Can't we all just think about the perspective other people present, even if we don't agree with them or have found them to be wrong in our experience?" Goodness gracious people! This is a diverse community with many "truths" for each person. If you can't relate to it, walk away and just say "I do not relate to that". Stop walking the line of black and white, and take a step into the grey every now and then. You'll be amazed at what you find there. Not everyone came here to have "special time". To quote one of my favorite science fiction villains, "Be grateful, or be silent".

I understand exactly where some of you are, with "special time" and have listened to how you feel about it all. It helped me realize that I didn't want to go where you are, meaning the fact that your life has gone far enough as a man that he can't be totally removed and replaced, even if you wanted to, without major problems for you and your family. Most of us try to be tolerant of your ideas and situation. Be tolerant of ours and the continuation of topics that maybe you've seen a million times and do not want to see anymore. Just because it's old to you, or wrong to you, doesn't mean that is the case for everyone.

[Longing2be-Trisha]

Well put Kaitlyn!

Hugs

[Tamara Croft]

<sarcarstic_admin>

Ooh gosh, maybe all the MTF's should dance around their handbags singing Kumbaya, holding hands and all getting along... now let me burst that little bubble of yours Freddy and bring you back into the real world, where people aren't always going to agree, like each other, get along etc etc... This is a forum, people can post whatever they like as long as it's within the rules. If you don't like what people post, it's really quite simple... move along to the next thread where they are all sitting around the camp fire singing Kumbaya and join in with them ok? :D

</sarcarstic_admin>

<additional_sarcasm>

Coming from someone who created another account and argued with themselves on the board in different threads, POT, KETTLE, BLACK... comes to mind!!

</additional_sarcasm>

[drag n fly]

Interesting topic..I've been a member of the local VFW here for many years, and about a year ago, joined the American Legion here...They'd shit themselves if I showed up for a meeting en femme..as it is my bald tattooed head and earrings raise a few eyebrows...I'm a Viet Nam vet and a crossdresser, and a recovering alcoholic...but I see no reason to reveal all this to everyone in my life..It would complicate things enormously, not to mention stun, and hurt many people...I like things as they are..My wife knows(what a relief that is)...a few friends do (women)...but , I am in cognito as far as my feminine side goes, for everyone else...I like it that way..smooches all Jackie

[Sandra]

Maybe this will help you. :devil:


162551

[LilSissyStevie]

Speaking of the different genres in art, I am a visual artist, and I automatically like all artists, no matter what level of expertise they may demonstrate, or what type (or school) of thinking they may adhere to. I COULD go out in public and give a talk about art – I may even be able to convince a few stoics that art is a worthwhile activity, but, much like I do with my crossdressing, I would rather stay at home, in my studio, creating images that give me great pleasure. Other, more outgoing artists wouldn’t dream of chastising me for my insular lifestyle, so why can’t the “out” crossdressers understand the closeted variety? I don’t get it...
:idontknow:

This is true for me also. I've been a musician (string instruments, mostly banjo, ukulele) for over 40 years and I can count the times on one hand I've played in public. After 40 years of constant practice, I'm pretty good. No brag, just fact. My wife (she plays fiddle) and I once entered a bluegrass "battle of the bands" contest on a whim. We were competing against some very good bands but we won first prize (and some $$$). That told me I have no reason to be ashamed of my abilities and that people enjoyed our playing. Yet, their approval did nothing for me. I don't do it for them, I do it for my own satisfaction. It's the same with crossdressing. My wife, on the other hand, loves to perform. She'll play in orchestras, chamber music, studio work, weddings and her regular gig in a rock band. Then she'll come home and play hillbilly music with me. But, she never practices alone. I don't try to keep her at home and she doesn't try to drag me out of my musical closet. Yet, somehow our temperaments still intersect at times. And it is good.

[Amanda22]

Might as well jump in... My crossdressing is extremely personal and is not a social cause. I'm on my own. I dress for myself. I honestly don't care if I'm understood by strangers. Again, I dress to please myself, not for applause of others.

I take it one step further, in fact. I enjoy shocking others to a small extent. It's a rush. Being "read" is not a bad thing. The last time I posted that idea on this forum a few months back, there followed all sorts of holier-than-thou posts to the effect of "I crossdress because it's who I am" and "I don't do it for a thrill." We'll guess what, it's who we all are! Why else would we put ourselves through this pain?

But my point is that I'm neither responsible for the social acceptance of crossdressing nor the hate of those who misunderstand me. I just do whatever the **** I feel like.

[carhill2mn]

Wow, Freddy! Slow down, take a deep breath, count to ten!

I belong to several sites, boards, whatever you want to call them. Over time, nearly all concerns, issues, wishes, fears,
needs, wants, etc. are repeated in one form or another. On one site to which I belong, I rarely read anything posted by one
person. There is a great diversity among the members on this (as well as most sites). Thus, many different opinions, etc.
will be expressed.

There will be many posts with which I will disagree or wonder what is that person thinking? There will never be total
agreement as to what action (or non-action) is best, as everyone's situation is different. I can choose whether or not I have
a response that would be helpful and respond. I can read the post and decide to do nothing. I can ignore the post. I can post
a reply that expresses why I disagree. In all cases, I try to determine what will be best in the long run. Sometimes I make the
right decsion and sometimes not.

[ReineD]

Freddy, is it the debate that is bothering you, or is it your perception there is a significant amount of people who despise the closeted CDs? If you read the threads carefully you'll see that most CDers agree with you. It's not much of a debate, actually.

Surely you can't expect that some members, giddy with having first come out or having first worn their short skirts and painted toenails in public, won't believe this is the best solution for everyone else? It is their right to post their thoughts. Maybe they do live in areas where CDing is largely accepted. Or, maybe they live in largely anonymous urban areas where people just don't care and they can't fathom what it must be like for someone living in a small conservative town. Or, maybe they've been struggling with repression for years, until it burst and they don't care what people think anymore. Maybe they have thick skins. Or maybe they are in pink fogs.

Regardless of their personal situations, have a closer look at the responses. The bulk of CDers agree with you, and it makes sense that the majority of TSs believe it is best to come out. I would too if I were TS. Also, it is true that fear is a real reason to not come out, for those CDs and TSs who resent having to stay in, and it was likely the OPs reason as well for many years. This is not the case for everyone and it is obvious that for many others, staying in is a question of priorities, for a number of reasons. And NO ONE can determine the motives for anyone else.

No one is telling you that "should" leave the closet. I do agree with the others in this thread who suggest you ignore the members here whom you believe are inflexible in their beliefs. They will follow their own paths and either come to be fully out and be exceedingly happy, or they will eventually crash and burn, or their initial excitement will wear off and they will reach a place of calmness with it all.

[Lucy_Bella]

Some of us here are just men who enjoy wearing womens clothing,maybe even some make up or hair. But that is as far as we like to go! Others here are much deeper into CDing ,so deep that they feel they are women and wish to openly express themselves in that manner.

Why drive a wedge between the two? I agree with the OP and I see no reason why others wish to promote, belittle or shame anyone to get out of their closet. It's a safety net for some of us who do not wish to expose our behaviour , I can not understand why this is allowed to continue to happen in this forum. I guess ( just a stab ) the only reason why could be those who allow actions by members to belittle other members could only have to agree maybe due in part they themselfs feel they are women/men and need to tell the world about, it because it's such a fantastic thing ,who knows?
Exposure for some of us is out of the question, we live our lives mostly in male mode and we have no desires of making any sexual idenities changes ..In short ....We like who we are !!

[BRANDYJ]

I think some of those that think all CD/TG/TS's should be out of the closet and then throw stones at those of us that are not completely out of the closet, are very bitter, angry and lonely souls. Much like the TG that came into my store last week. She was warmly greeted at the front door by one of our GG associates. She totally ignored the greeter and continued toward the back of the store. She then was approached by one of our sales associates and asked if there was anything he could help her find. This Bytch said, "I wish the phuck you people would just leave me the hell alone". This is the type of person that does not care what anyone thinks of her. Definitely a chip on her shoulder and not a very friendly or happy person. I feel sorry for them. Whereas they feel nothing for anyone but themselves.

[Jennifer Cox]

Hi Frederique,

That's a very eloquent post. It would be a shame if you were to leave, since we need those that can pose the challenging questions.

From your post I can understand why you feel unable to go out dressed and perhaps that's why, at least in part, that you feel so aggrieved about others posting that you should. On your part you should accept that everyone here has a right to their own opinion, you don't have to read their posts or agree with them. On the other hand, perhaps we should all consider the feelings of others when making our own posts. We all know that going out dressed is not practical for many and that berating them for not doing so is only likely to add to any dysphoria they already feel.

[Deedee Dupree]

Freddy, I agree with Carhill... maybe it's time to take a break, do something else "productive", whatever brings
you maximum satisfaction.

Stevie, Right on. Although I have been on stage at least a thousand times over a 50 year period, I have reached the point that I no longer play to other's expectations. To do so would dishonor my gift, such as it is.

I "cut my teeth" in the real world with CDing, and have come to conclusions that differ with many here. I dress, first and last, for me only, or on rare occasions for a close circle of friends who have a similar point of view.
____________________


Edit. OK Reine, will do. Your action was right and proper.

[Nigella]

... I can not understand why this is allowed to continue to happen in this forum. I guess ( just a stab ) the only reason why could be those who allow actions by members to belittle other members could only have to agree maybe due in part they themselfs feel they are women/men and need to tell the world about, it because it's such a fantastic thing ,who knows?


Your stab was totally in the dark. This forum allows debate and individual expression of opinion, censoring is not taken lightly and unless a post breaks the rules then there is no reason to remove it. TBPH your post in itself could be seen as critisising the moderators, which in itself is not allowed on the open forum. A number of the moderators on this forum are GGs, what benefit would they gain by "needing to tell the world".

As a moderator I read a lot of things on this forum that I do not agree with, understand the reason for or even have no interest in, should I close/delete them because of my personal preferences, nope I do what most members do, read it (cos its my role) then move on. Why not try doing the same next time you read a thread/post the you think is belittling.

[StarrOfDelite]

Frederique,

Assuming I have read your post correctly, I agree with most of what you have to say. Whether a person chooses to stay in the closet or walk down main street wearing five inch heels, a mini-skirt, and a flame red bouffant drag queen wig is purely a matter of individual preference. Since we all share, to a greater or lesser degree, a personality trait which is neither well understood nor generally condoned by society, we should not engage in internal strife in the community. No one has a "duty" to be a spokes person for any viewpoint at the risk of their personal safety and reputation.

However, I feel compelled to observe, after reading your rather detailed account of your imaginary "stroll" past the elementary school, wellness center, city hall, "watering hole," police station and VFW post, that your situation in a small town in central Kansas is much more difficult and constraining than many of us face. It's makes me appreciate how much easier, and how much less of a statement it is, for me to take a walk down Second Avenue in androgynous mode than it is to do the same thing in the heart of America.

Good luck, and thanks for your thoughts.

[Lucy_Bella]

[QUOTE=Nigella;2564764] Why not try doing the same next time you read a thread/post the you think is belittling.[/QUOTE

The fact of the matter is Nigella..... I do move on 90% of the time ....I rarley comment on anything through out this oneside forum because of how it is fueled...So thanks for the advice...

[sissystephanie]

Nigella's last post states the entire program very succinctly!! This is a FORUM, and unless the post is obviously not within the rules, it cannot be removed!! As Nigella said, many posts are not going to be what you wanted to read!! But if you don't like them, just move on!! You don't have to agree with every post, and no one has to answer every post!! I read a lot of posts that I totally disagree with, but the majority of times I just move on!! There are too many things of importance going on in the world to have arguments over crossdressing issues!!

And one other major point, if you think it necessary to crictically answer a post, please be sure and read the post again. Many people on this forum answer a post when they obviously have not read the post completely, and understood it!! When I say understood the post, I mean from all sides, not just your own version of what should be!!

[Phoebe P.]

Wow! I've been away for a while! Quite a bit going on evidently!

[Karren H]

Frederique,
What you say is true; However, some of us here can not go out because we would look like a
coal miner in a dress digging coal. Sorry Karren, But it is true. I my self would love to go out
of the house dressed,
Rader

I know some pretty cute female underground coal miners!!

[Butterfly Bill]

Many men who have come out and found that not only did the world not end and they didn't get ridden out of town on a rail, but that there are many people who they thought wouldn't accept it who do, and that in the main most people don't care, get into a happy feeling that they want to share with others. It's like an evangelist wanting to spread the good news. I would never try to lay a shame and guilt trip on someone and call him a coward, because I know that trying to motivate people in that way is always ultimately futile, but when watch people getting so afraid of things that they think might happen that I know from my own experience won't, I can find it hard to support people in their distress by agreeing with them.

[suchacutie]

Frederique...thank you for giving me the image that I just could not come up with on my own!

In all this "closet" discussion, I was looking for a brilliant retort that would end the issue, but alas try as I might, I failed.

Then, you said it:

Dressing is a special event...every time. It's important to me, well to both of us! I will do nothing to minimize that importance, and everything to enhance the event!

Thank you! You're fantastic!

tina

[Frédérique]

Oh, dear, where do I begin? Thanks for the many responses so far...:)


Just as you think there are better things to discuss, so do other members here. This forum is a cross section of the human race, just as RL is. I think though, that you believe that the in the closet, out the closet, issue is worth pursuing, otherwise why start this thread?? All you have done is keep the topic open, with an opinion on why staying in the closet is right for you, then castigating others who do not agree with you.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you begin a thread titled “Do you not regret coming out of the closet?” I believe THAT qualifies as “keeping the topic open,” dear moderator. BTW, my aim is not to castigate others with words – I’m just an observer, and I’m commenting on what I read, just like everyone else. Since the “closet” issue is subtly being steered one way, for whatever reason, I thought I might chime in and balance things a bit. This is one of those “damned if you DO, damned if you DON’T” threads, and I could’ve just as easily stayed away from the site and painted my nails...
:straightface:


But nooooooo....... You have to stay closeted, don't you? Just remember that that road construction worker who just got off work and is sitting down at the local watering hole having a Budweiser in his sleeveless flannel shirt that allows him to show off his many tattoos only holds on to his preconceived ideas about "queers" because you refuse to go in there en femme, sit next to him on the barstool, and have a drink with him.

But, darling – I don’t drink... :doh:

The gentleman in question may be “queer” himself, but I don’t do tricks... :eek:


Freddy, is it the debate that is bothering you, or is it your perception there is a significant amount of people who despise the closeted CDs? If you read the threads carefully you'll see that most CDers agree with you. It's not much of a debate, actually.

There are a few individuals who seem to take issue with closeted crossdressers, and there are others who are IN the closet that take issue with the former, usually in the form of wordy one-upMANship. Personally I think there are better, more important and supportive things worthy of discussion. I began this thread to discuss THAT, not perpetuate the tired debate about being “in” or “out.” In this case, I’m making a thinly-veiled commentary about male behavior, which is a recurring theme I explore. The reactions to what I write are quite revealing and interesting, and I get to know my "fellow" crossdressers better through these written “conversations.” I am neither IN the closet completely, nor am I OUT in the world at all times, so I report from my position in limbo...


I do agree with the others in this thread who suggest you ignore the members here whom you believe are inflexible in their beliefs.

Oh, I ignore plenty of inflexible individuals – in fact, my “ignore list” is overflowing... :heehee:


However, I feel compelled to observe, after reading your rather detailed account of your imaginary "stroll" past the elementary school, wellness center, city hall, "watering hole," police station and VFW post, that your situation in a small town in central Kansas is much more difficult and constraining than many of us face.

Thank you for pointing that out! All I can do is tell you about my immediate surroundings, and who I might converse with – it is not a place that “welcomes” individuality, but if I lived in a more accepting locale I would still be rather reserved with my crossdressing, because I am a shy, retiring type. To reiterate what I related in the OP, this is largely a private, special activity for a person such as myself, and I plan and prepare accordingly for those times I CAN crossdress, or when I wish to make an ordinary occasion truly extraordinary. I am not a 100% transgendered person, just a plain old MtF crossdresser who gets a “kick” out of wearing female clothing as often as I can. Crossdressing in my constraining environment can be very exciting, in fact I enjoy being completely unlike my neighbors in ALL ways. What they don’t know won’t hurt them, but I don’t wish to hurt myself, either...

I must say that being HERE, in a largely non-constraining situation, trying to put words to thoughts, is fun and challenging, so, in spite of myself, I keep coming back. I guess what I’m trying to say is thanks for putting up with me (so far)...
:battingeyelashes:

[Anne2345]

Ooh gosh, maybe all the MTF's should dance around their handbags singing Kumbaya, holding hands and all getting along... now let me burst that little bubble of yours Freddy and bring you back into the real world, where people aren't always going to agree, like each other, get along etc etc... This is a forum, people can post whatever they like as long as it's within the rules. If you don't like what people post, it's really quite simple... move along to the next thread where they are all sitting around the camp fire singing Kumbaya and join in with them ok? :D

I agree with this general premise. This is a forum in which members can post their respective opinions, and should be encouraged to do so. However, Frederique was but merely posting her own opinion in response to a minority of members that take the position closeted crossdressers are cowards, full of fear, and do nothing to promote the out-of-the-closet transgendered platform and agenda. Because this is a forum in which all are at liberty to post their own opinions within the rules set forth herein, she has just as much "right" to do so as the next girl.

Frederique's response, within the confines of this thread, however, are well thought out, and individual to her own circumstances. The "discourse" that brought about this thread in the first place was not. Broad, general statements were made, utilizing shame tactics and insult, and based upon nothing but unwarranted and unfounded assumption. Frederique sought to dispell such baseless assumptions in her rebuttal by using herself as an example. This is classic debate, and should be encouraged. I, for one, found Frederique's post quite compelling.

I do not believe the point of her post was to dissuade legitimate debate, but rather to point out the flaws in certain members' logic, and request that discourse remain civil. And if through her words, discourse, and debate, some members do indeed joining hands, dance around, and sing Kumbaya, is this not a good thing within that particular circle? She argues for acceptance, love, respect, understanding, and civility. Are these not noble causes to address and discuss? I believe they are, and I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that you believe the same.

[Nigella]

[QUOTE=Frédérique;2564916]
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you begin a thread titled “Do you not regret coming out of the closet?” I believe THAT qualifies as “keeping the topic open,” dear moderator. BTW, my aim is not to castigate others with words – I’m just an observer, and I’m commenting on what I read, just like everyone else. Since the “closet” issue is subtly being steered one way, for whatever reason, I thought I might chime in and balance things a bit. This is one of those “damned if you DO, damned if you DON’T” threads, and I could’ve just as easily stayed away from the site and painted my nails...
:straightface

Yes I did start that thread, but you forgot to mention the thread that my SO started "Do you regret coming out of the closet", so there is a balanced view in that respect in that both sides have an opportunity to voice the pros and cons of coming out. However, without understanding the reasons for these threads you have assumed that it is my intention to keep a debate open with a slant to "my side".

Well in respect of the threads currently running, all will be revealled in due course, as for my views, they are just that my views, I only know a couple of members from this site in RL. I don't give a toss what anyone here does with their lives, they have a nil impact on my life, so to everyone, live your life as you see fit, after all it is your life. How you or anyone else interprets my posts, well again that is out of my control, read things how you will.

[Noortje]

Hmm... you say repeatedly that you are tired of the discussion and want to stay out of it (I feel the same way), but your entire piece argues for staying in the closet, which is one of the sides in this age-old discussion. I will not not argue against your right to stay in the closet, because I am on your side of this dichotomy, but you are still perpetuating the argument itself.

I believe that this argument is worth having, because in spirit it is an argument that is essential to society. It is about an individual's responsibility for furthering society's understanding of minorities, and of people who are different. The people who choose to do this are the driving force of social progress, but in general they do this at grave personal risk. That is why it takes courage. I suggest we have this argument every time someone wants to. And every time we have this argument we should use the opportunity to praise those courageous enough to try to make life better for others, through a process that makes it worse for themselves. We should also, every time, emphasize that nobody is obliged to do this. We should remind those who want to stay in the closet that it is okay to do so.

To everyone out there: you have my permission to fight for my rights, and I will thank you if you do so. But I am not obliged to fight for yours.

There is one thing about your post though, Frédérique, that makes me really angry:


...seek compassion for others who are unlike you, and try to understand that one size, or one circumstance, does not fit all. In short, drop the MALE, will you please?


...not bend individuals to my will like a male would do.

Yeah, let's blame everything on one gender. Men are evil, women are flawless. Way to fight for understanding and equality, Frédérique.

[Frédérique]

Frederique was but merely posting her own opinion...

Dearest Anne, please don’t feel like you have to defend me within this discussion, or at any other time. You’re relatively new here, and there are some things you don’t know yet. I should have sent you a PM of advice for dealing with certain individuals, but darned if I don’t get embroiled in these in/out discussions against my will (which you seem to be involved in) – this is the place where crossdressing ceases to be magical, and real life (hitherto referred to as RL) creeps under the door to steal your precious panties...

I was hoping to avoid seeing the post you quoted, but there it is, and I had to read it to better understand where you’re coming from, or why you’re trying to help me. Just avoid reading posts like that, and please don’t empower the individuals who hate MtF crossdressers by passing along their unsympathetic prose, if you can call it that. A lot of people on this site don’t like me, and they poke me with a pointed stick now and then to get their jollies. Tell me – if somebody called your thoughtfully-chosen words “bullshit” in the BODY of the forum, would you write one of your thoughtful, eloquent rebuttals, or would you withdraw, painfully injured by the very people who are supposed to be offering support? I’m sure the person in question is chuckling with glee right now, but that’s OK, since I very much don’t count for anything around here - I'm an MtF crossdresser, you see...

If you don’t see me around, you’ll know why. I love you, Anne – thanks for all your help... :kiss:


Yes I did start that thread, but you forgot to mention the thread that my SO started "Do you regret coming out of the closet", so there is a balanced view in that respect in that both sides have an opportunity to voice the pros and cons of coming out. However, without understanding the reasons for these threads you have assumed that it is my intention to keep a debate open with a slant to "my side".

Ok, Nigella, I was unaware of that other thread. Is it OK to say that I feel like I’m being double-teamed? Meanwhile, I feel like I’m relatively alone, inserting myself into someone else’s discussion, but it’s reassuring to know that many members are as fed up as I am – for the umpteenth time, this thread is not about IN vs. OUT, it’s about the behavior of certain MtF individuals in those other threads, where closeted crossdressers come under fire from people who should know better...


Well in respect of the threads currently running, all will be revealed in due course, as for my views, they are just that my views, I only know a couple of members from this site in RL. I don't give a toss what anyone here does with their lives, they have a nil impact on my life, so to everyone, live your life as you see fit, after all it is your life. How you or anyone else interprets my posts, well again that is out of my control, read things how you will.

What will be revealed in due course? That you are correct, and I am wrong? That crossdressers who go out are the REAL crossdressers, and those who keep to themselves are not really true CD’s? That is largely a rhetorical question, since I also don’t care how others live their lives, or how you (or they) may actually feel about others in the community. I’m just glad to see more “body” to your posts, so I can understand where you’re coming from a little better. Any interpretation I may make from your chosen words is not superficial, I assure you, nor do I post casually...


Yeah, let's blame everything on one gender. Men are evil, women are flawless. Way to fight for understanding and equality, Frédérique.

Why, thank you – I love you, too! :heehee:

Perhaps you didn’t read the lovely “guts” and “sack” thread by Anne2345, which sprang off of the “Hiding” thread by Pythos – you should read it all, and realize that this little discussion I began is based on a post by a MtF crossdresser (I assume), and the divisive reaction to it. In this context, men ARE evil, and women ARE flawless, but you need to realize that there IS a context before you start spewing venom at ME. I am fighting for equality within this section, in case you don’t realize it – when someone starts acting superior to everyone else, equality between different types of crossdressers flies out the window. Apparently this doesn’t bother YOU, but it bothers ME. Equality of the sexes is an appropriate topic for another forum, but here, on a crossdressing forum, issues relating to crossdressing (in all it’s myriad forms) are discussed, OK? When a male wears women’s clothing, and then says something stupid that is related to having “balls,” it really denigrates people quietly seeking sympathy for what they do. I didn’t want to write my thoughts about this divisive and juvenile posting, but, since the party in question is allowed to spout such utter nonsense, I am allowed to speak up and defend us inferior types. Read this, please:


And one other major point, if you think it necessary to crictically answer a post, please be sure and read the post again. Many people on this forum answer a post when they obviously have not read the post completely, and understood it!! When I say understood the post, I mean from all sides, not just your own version of what should be!!

Way to “fight” for understanding, Noortje, by being completely ignorant of what’s going on. At least you got the accents in my femme name correct... :tth:

[kimdl93]

the whole point of a discussion board is to facilitate discussion. As this thread and many others have shown, there are an abundance and broad range of points of view. Yes, I agree that often the points being made are grossly overgeneralized and that people often very presumptuously presume that whatever they are doing is the "right" way. And some people just enjoy stirring the pot to see what happens.

The one thing that really damages a discussion is when people resort to ad hominem attacks. Using personal attacks to justify a position, alas, is part of human nature, but not a very flattering one.

If it gets a bit much, there's usually another thread to follow.

[Kaitlyn26]

A lot of people on this site don’t like me, and they poke me with a pointed stick now and then to get their jollies.


Did it ever occur to you that it may not be a case of "jollies" at all? Maybe those people you claim are victimizing you, can't stand you and burst out in anger at your remarks every now and then.

[Noortje]

Perhaps you didn’t read the lovely “guts” and “sack” thread by Anne2345, which sprang off of the “Hiding” thread by Pythos...

I read parts of both. Not all, because they were very long, and I have seen this discussion before. I did not feel like getting into that discussion again, at least not right now, though I think the discussion is a valuable one.


In this context, men ARE evil, and women ARE flawless...

I really don't see that. What I saw in your post, which I read three times before commenting, is that you ascribe destructive, intolerant and numbskulled behaviour to masculinity, and suggest that the feminine are above that. As a man, I take offense to that. Also, have you met actual women?


Way to “fight” for understanding, Noortje, by being completely ignorant of what’s going on.

Bad form.


At least you got the accents in my femme name correct...

I like to make an effort.

[Frédérique]

Did it ever occur to you that it may not be a case of "jollies" at all? Maybe those people you claim are victimizing you, can't stand you and burst out in anger at your remarks every now and then.

No comment, except to say that you’re relatively new here - you’ll meet the people I’m talking about soon enough, as long as you dare to question those things that others take for granted…

With the exception of one or two individuals, I wish to thank everyone for their contributions to this thread, and for their participation in this discussion/conversation, all for a good cause – this is a difficult topic to discuss, and, like most subjects along emotional lines, the discussion goes nowhere, but I still feel it NEEDS to be discussed. Once the current trend of IN vs. OUT wears thin, there will be a lull, and then the same topic(s) will be unearthed, only to go nowhere once again, but that’s how it is. I have nothing more to say on the subject at hand, so I respectfully withdraw myself at this time…

PS - Thanks for all of the kind, supportive comments -- I REALLY appreciate it! :)

I like that topic in “Special Events”: The Joy of Doing Nothing. That suits me just fine, for now…;)


(????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????)

Sorry, darling – I can’t see anything you write. I’m sure your comments are worth ignoring…:heehee:

[Kaitlyn26]

No one said everyone was going to like you, or me. I'm just saying that maybe you're pushing their buttons without realizing it. If they lash at you often, use your overflowing ignore list! I only have one person on ignore. Maybe you should think about some tolerance?

I'm just guessing here based on what others have said and your personality, that you live in a small town. Tolerance in small towns is normally pretty low, gossip is pretty high, and drama between persons is a dedicated past time. Have you ever tried living in the city? Is moving to a city an option for you? I think it would help you very much because you seem trapped and sad. But whatever it's your life to live.

[sometimes_miss]

First of all let me say that I support everything Frederique wrote in this thread. I was going to write lots more, but it's all been said. This thread is becoming exactly what Frederique described the other ones were like. Arguments. Even sadder though, is when we get our posts edited out because our opinions are deemed unacceptable. It makes this forum just another censored spot to visit, and as such, does not reflect the real world. So why argue about it so much? We're in a fantasy forum, it's not reality, so just enjoy the feel good environment here, and if you want argue, there are plenty of political forums available for that.

[ReineD]

SometimesMiss, posts are not edited here for having different opinions. They are edited for either being against the rules, being inflammatory, or otherwise inciting a flame war.

On that note, this thread is closed as well. Everything there is to say has also been said here.

Maybe we can all move on now.